The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The Jets & Jaguars battle for Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hurts replaces Carson Wentz, the Browns & Giants impress, Bears problems, Colts & more in our week 13 review

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Despite it being a very entertaining weekend of football in the NFL, perhaps the biggest storyline involves college football. Who will end up with Trevor Lawrence...the Jags or the Jets? Join Robert Mays and Nate Tice for a full recap of this and more of week 13's biggest storylines, from the Eagles pulling Carson Wentz in favor of Jalen Hurts, to the Browns offense showing up big against the Titans, a debate about the Bears and Eagles and so much more on The Athletic Football Show.Subscribe to The Athletic now and save BIG at theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me tonight, it's my good friend Nate Tyson. Nate, how are you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. I live in Las Vegas, and this is one of those days I wish I could have been at a sports book.

Like, sports book on a Sunday is a pretty magical place, especially week one or a Super Bowl or something to that nature. Yeah. But, I mean, this would have been one of those days, especially if you're getting lines and over-unders involved, that I think a lot of a lot of noise coming from come from the sports book today. What is your favorite sports book in Vegas to watch stuff at? Caesars is the classic one, but I go to Red Rock because that's kind of more near where I live.

Yeah, but it's so far out of the way. I mean, they always have a lot of interesting bets and things like that. I used to go to the Hilton when it was the Hilton back when they had that massive, massive sportsbook. Now it's the Westgate. Westgate, yep, it's a Westgate. Yeah, so I've been there. And then Caesar's a lot of time spent at the Caesar Sportsbook. I remember watching, remember the Ron Artaest Airball?

It was that game when you're playing against the sons. Yeah, yeah. So that game I was watching at the Caesar Sportsbook. So that's probably where I've watched the most games, but a lot of games at that Hilton Westgate, too. So I agree with you. It was a crazy day. We're going to get to a bunch of stuff.

We're going to talk about Carson Wentz a little bit later. We're going to talk about the Cardinals letting us down again and letting everybody down. The hype train just being off the tracks there. We're going to get into a remarkable, masterful game from Kevin Stefanski and the Browns, a bunch more stuff. Before we do that, though, I wanted to start today in a strange place. And that's by talking about the bad teams.

Because I think you could make an argument that what happened at the end of that early slate with the worst teams in the NFL might have been the most interesting thing that happened today. There was a stretch where the Jets game, the Jags game, and the Bears Lines game were all ending at the same time. And Siciliano had the three box. And I'm sitting there like, this is awful. Like, it's exciting. But just thinking about it in a vacuum where these are the games we're talking about is just a place I would never want to get to. But it was incredibly important.

Not because of who was going to win those games, but who was going to possibly lose them. It looked like we had a moment there where the Jets were going to squander away, the inside track to the number one pick and the Jags were going to somehow make up ground here and get back in the Trevor Lawrence sweepstakes but in the end Greg Williams pulls the jets away from the fire

like only he can do I mean that was just a sequence where you're sitting there with so much on the line for a team that's 0-1-11 because of how unique this draft class is very rarely do we have a moment where the number one pick is so important that this kind of intrigue surrounds it all the time. But because of what Trevor Lawrence is, that ended up becoming like the biggest flashpoint of the entire day.

It's a once a decade thing. I think the last time we really had it, I think truly, truly had it is luck in RG3. And then, you know, it's a once a decade thing. The Curtis Painter Colts, man, coming through in the clutch. That was fun, man. That was fun talking about that today. To Curtis Paint reference in one day. That's fun.

But the, when you get luck, I mean, you had, you know, the Peyton Manning draft, even Vic. I mean, you don't get these every all the time. It's really once a decade. And so that's what makes it kind of like a like a Haley's Comet situation. We're like, oh, it's the race to the bottom. You know, it's one of those fun things. Like you never get a sequence like we had. It was a real witching hour this time.

But, you know, and even even more fun way. Black magic. Like truly, truly deranged. Have you seen like supernatural stuff? I have not. I'm not nearly as well-versed in the horror movies as you are. I did watch Freaky this weekend, though, which I highly recommend if you ever watch it. It was great.

Anyway, continue. But it was more like the witch, which was like a brooding, long, quiet, creepy film, that kind of witch and not like hocus pocus, fun. Yeah, not like a hocus, pocus fun, like Bet Miller kind of fun witching. But it was just witching, but it was one of those things that it was, you had that sequence where the Jaguar scored, hit the two point. And then it looked like the Jets won the game stopping on fourth down. And it was like, it was weird.

Like Twitter was a weird place. Jaguar spans are upset. Raiders fans are upset. It's so funny because you can almost see Lawrence in the Jaguars uniform in that moment. I like instantly went to it in this very strange way. I was like, oh man, I guess that's going to happen maybe. And I automatically thought about what he would look like. Like that is the place he has in our collective consciousness right now and how it relates to this NFL season is that,

I'm doing these jersey photoshopps in my mind almost in real time today as it was unfolding. You were even kind of doing that last week with the Bears when we were like brooding about that. Like you were just going to that later. We can get into that later. But you're even in that mindset and you could just, it was a window into that fan mindset where you're just like, you're talking about losses now and how those are going to stack up for draft picks because that's how you're mind. And it's fun how fans' minds could just go pop just like that. But I don't know. it's one of those things where it's like the Greg Williams blitz is going to be memeable all the time.

Like what it was so crazy to me, I, I'm totally fine with bringing pressure on a Hill Mary situation. Because especially if you want to bring it to where the quarterback's, you know, throwing strength is or you want to put them to the boundary. Those are two lines of thoughts. Not really the blitz up to shoot, though. The brits up to shoot at a zero blitz with no help over the top when the one thing you can't do is allow your defense to get beat over the top. So let's get this out of the way right now. This is not something he did on purpose to lose the game. That is not what's happening.

Greg Williams has no incentive for the Jets to go winless in this season. It follows you for the rest of your career and you don't get to coach Trevor Lawrence. That's not what happened. But if you're going to try to sabotage your season, it is nice to have a defensive coordinator who's very good at sabotaging himself. Who does it just religiously. And that's exactly what happened. Not only did they almost give up, did they give up the touchdown to Ruggs on that play.

They almost gave up the touchdown to Aguilar two plays earlier when he was running unimpeded down the middle of the field and Carr just overthrew him. And when that happened, I was like, oh man, you can't let that happen. And then two plays later, they just get torched on the left sideline.

Even the play that they, or the series that they got off on fourth down, like Hunter Renfro got open on the play before and scored a touchdown. It just had offsetting penalties. And then on top of that, we're not even, I'm even talking about the offense, too. This is just so jetsy and is that in the four minute drill, under two minutes, it was like a minute and 10 left. They run a plate, an outside run play, which is all fine. And the runner back really got pushed out of bounds. And the clock should have stopped. And the rest were very generous winding the clock. It was like, they cannot help themselves. It was just like they just have to do it like this. And yeah, yeah, what a game. What a sequence. It was remarkable. I will say credit to Derrick Carr on that play because he had to step up

and he had to deliver a perfect ball for that play to work. Well done by him. Great protection too. They wanted it up a little bit. Like they did a good job too and protection. So they did what they needed to do. They still were given that opportunity

by Greg Williams just deciding that this is what I do no matter what. He's living a real, real, real Yolo life when it comes to those sorts of plays. So my question. out of this. Now that the dust is settled, the jets still are winless, the Jets still of the inside track to the number one pick. I don't know if they'll get this close again. But as you watch those games, especially the Jets Raiders games, did it make you think

any differently about the Raiders? Do you see them in a different light now after they essentially got beat by this Jets team? I think it continues the thoughts we had when we were saying we flew too close to the Sun saying that they are changed and they look so good on offense. they maybe have some nice pieces on defense. I think it's they look how I thought they looked last week, more a continuation of that thought, the bad side, the Falcons game a little bit. Like they were struggling in the first half to move the ball. Even with Darren Waller looking like a demigod, like they, you know, and Hunter Renfro was doing

some nice things, you know, Ruggs is limited in what he can do still, but he could still take the top off like we've talked about. But, you know, it was one of those things they looked, it looked like a continuation. The defense is still porous. I mean, very, very bad. That was my issue today. Yeah. The offense, I think the offense has some issues, and I think part of the issue in the first half was they had no answers for pressure.

There was one third down where I think it was third and seven, I want to say, third and seven or third and ten. And they brought pressure. And the three receivers on the right side didn't even look back to Carr before they hit the sticks. I mean, the shot play had absolutely no chance. They were going a little bit more horizontal on the second half, I think, to combat that. And it actually looked a lot better. And I agree. They did some great stuff, scheming wall.

up, just getting him essentially manned up on people and letting him go to work. He's really, really good at that. And my two things, are we at a point where all of the decoy rug stuff is just started to be overkill? Because it seems like he's going in jet motion and getting in the flat over and over and over again. And I can understand using him as eye candy in that role in order to create some stuff for the rest of you.

There was one play where he was the flat controller and then Waller was the second was the second level guy in a flood concept and they hit Waller and it was great. It's like, oh, if you're going to take some attention, nice. But it still feels like you're misusing the fastest guy in the league outside of Tyree Kill by using him horizontally all of the time. Yeah. Well, and real quick is that its defenses aren't going to fear it as much if you're not going to actually use it. And also and Ruggs gets the ball, had caught an outbreak. It might have been a sail route or something of that sort. And he caught one and he was getting north.

and it was a good opportunity for him to turn on the jets, make somebody miss, and he didn't. He just kind of ran forward and got tackled, tripped up like six yards later. And it's one of those plays that you want to see a top 15 pick be dynamic there. And to make, you know, turn that six yards into 20 yards, you know,

like an OBJ, you know, like those guys kind of do. But that's what Ruggs really is. He's limited with the ball in his hand. So defenses aren't going to be scared. They're like, okay,

he's a one-trick pony and take the top off. Yeah. Can he develop? Yes, guys always develop. But it's scary because in college, Ruggs, he was a really, really fast guy like that, really good coaches like Nick Saber are going to find a way to get the ball in their hands. They had him as a punt returner early on in his career at Alabama. They took him off of it. And that's always an alarm bell for me,

because that means he can't make guys with the ball in his hands. And that's always stuck with me with Rugs is that if he can't do that early on in college, what makes it think that you can do it in the NFL? So I think defenses are really smart. They're going to get on to that kind of stuff. If, you know, if you don't make them pay, if you're just going to keep doing as a decoy, eh, all right, defense will start triggering. And there's a game later we'll talk about where a defense did do that against a team that likes to use Jet Motion. So he did, I mean, obviously outside of the big touchdown, he had some rough moments today. He had a drop early in the game, I think on third down on a slant.

He had a fumble late in the game that obviously gave the Jets a chance to win that game. But even I think those moments were kind of isolated. For the most part, I think outside of dealing with pressure in the first half, the offense looked pretty good. Yeah. My issue is the fact that the defense was hapless. They gave 206 rushing yards and 6.1 yards per carry to a team that came into this game 30th in rushing VBOA. And there was nothing special about what the Jets were doing, just zone run after zone run. And the Raiders have absolutely no answer.

They were gashing them consistently. That is more worrisome to me than whatever the offense did. If they're just going to have these leaky aspects to their game on both sides of the ball all of the time, then this team is going to be what they are right? now. They're going to be a team that it flashes every once in a while, but is it going to consistently let you down late in the season when it really matters? It's a team, like you said, let you down. It's going to be a team that gets in these fun shootouts. So we might think they're better than they are because, yeah, you know, this league is leaning offense. The defense can't

be that bad. You have to either create turnovers or just do have more dynamic plays. I mean, yeah, that's obvious. You want to say that about any defense, but you need that. You just can't live that way and you can't win that way especially in the playoffs so the jets are o' and 12 their next four games the last four games seahawks rams browns patriots okay the jets are going oat 16 oh boy today was the today was the jaggs chance and they did not take advantage of it no the jags or i guess they it wasn't up to them but they did not gain any ground jags latin next four games titans ravens probably losses I'm not ruling anything out at this point. The Robert Mazeball.

They end with the Colts. Trust me. The Nick Tolls Revenge game. I am watching the standings like a hawk right now. It's all I care about anymore. We'll get to that. So that's where that sits. I have a good feeling that this was the biggest scare the Jets are going to have.

I think that we're cruising toward the Trevor Lawrence situation. The biggest scare. I'm not telling you. That's what this is. I think they're going to be just fine. So while we're on the subject to bad teams, before we get to the rest of the show, I just want to officially denounce the Chargers. Full bore now? It's over.

I was, I defended Anthony Lynn at times during this season, especially early on. I thought that they were competitive in a lot of these games against teams that were better than them while they were extremely banged up. You watch that game today. This is on the heels of what they did last week where the end of game decision making, end of half decision making, the time management, all a nightmare. they come in, they make an unfathomable amount of mistakes on special teams today. And this is not just an isolated incident, and that's the problem. Aaron Schatz tweeted earlier today, they are on pace to have the second worst special teams unit ever measured by football outsiders.

Who's number one, do you say? The 2009 bills. I don't actually have that written down. I just remembered it. I was very proud of that. So when you get beat 45 to nothing by a team that. had their quarterback go 12 of 19 for 69 yards, it's probably time to look at yourself in the mirror.

And I think that this is indicative of what they've been all season. Special teams are 100% a product of just organized and well done coaching. It's why the teams at the top are consistently the teams you would assume. I don't even need to look at it right now. I bet the teams at the top of the special teams rankings right now are like the dolphins, the Seahawks are really high, the Ravens. The chiefs are actually, I think, middle in the middle ground this year. That's right. They're a rough year.

That's right. For the most part, they're the teams that I think, I bet New England is higher than they probably should be considering the rest of their team. This stuff is organizational and it is just getting your guys moving in the right direction. And the fact that the chargers can give up multiple special teams touchdowns almost give up a third one and not have the right amount of guys on the field every single time this happens. This is no longer an accident. Get Justin Herbert hit 11 times today. their offense was completely hapless. I mean, I think we've seen enough here.

I honestly do. I was in favor of giving this staff more time, giving the staff more room because I thought they were competing really hard despite all of the injuries. But this team has way too much talent to look like this. And their future is way too bright with Herbert and some of the pieces on that roster for them to keep playing like this. Well, they say special teams is the hidden yards. And, you know, and same about analytics, I guess, is a little bit of hidden yards.

So do you, in clock management and game management. So do you think the chargers are going to be winners of hidden yards? So it's not surprising that their special teams kind of fall what the rest of the program kind of does. And I mean, you text me pretty early on. I would say middle of the second quarter, you're like, hey, they got to take Herbert out. Like, save it. There's no reason for me on the game. Throw away foot, throw on the towel.

They just save them. Your left tackle is already out. So you're on your whatever left tackle now. I think it's technically their backup left tackle, but their starting left tackle is a backup left tackle at any other world. So you're starting to get to a place you don't want to be. We're getting 2010 Bears territory. I mean, you could just see it where it's like, this is, he shouldn't be in there. And I mean, you have to be thinking about more than just this game.

It was a really troubling performance from them overall. And it's just the latest one of those. And I think that's why I'm, I've come to this place. We can't keep doing this. Yeah. If you want to be taken seriously and the amount of talent they have, they should be taken seriously. You can't have games like they had today.

You can't have end of half and end of game situations like they had last week. This has become a problem that is not fluky. This is just who they are. And I think that it's time we all kind of came to terms with that. A couple of weeks ago, Tua got banged up and you know what the dolphins did. They sat them in a competitive game. So that's kind of what, I mean, if we just talked about special teams that dolphins are probably high up there because that's probably a smart team because that's a smart team.

So it makes sense that, you know, that's what the dolphins would do. And then just going off of like what you send the text that not what the chargers are looking to do. You know, on the flip side, fun to see the Patriots a little bit, fun to see that single wing offense going at it. I think I saw a double lead in there. We were talking about it beforehand and we were like, what are we going to say about the Patriots? And my official ruling here is I need to see a little bit more. I need to see them win a game where they do not score multiple special teams touchdowns. It's a team that cannot function and have cam throw for more than 69 yards.

That's fair. I am encouraged by their defensive performance over the last couple weeks. I think that it is the sign of being able to throw together defensive game plans in moments where it matters against teams that I think perfect example. Both of these teams have true number one receivers. And when they play teams like that, they do a great job clamping down on those guys. They've done it for the last two weeks. We've been in moments even when the Patriots were really good. where their defense was down near the bottom of the league.

I want to say they might have won a Super Bowl when they finished 31st or 32nd and defensive DVA away with Patricia. I think that might have been the Eagles year. Yeah. They lost in the Super Bowl. They lost in the Super Bowl, but they were bad. They've been able to put together some defensive performances

late in games or late in seasons, even if they haven't been good all year because they're so well coached. This might be a scenario where they're in the hunt to make the playoffs. They absolutely still can, especially with the Raiders kind of looking as shaky as, they do. And maybe their defense put together a little bit. They lean into this offensive identity. I want to see it a little bit more before we start celebrating this version of this Patriots team. That's awesome. After the first two weeks, I was really excited to see the Patriots offense.

We like had Josh McDaniels as a winner. Like we were pretty fired up. And seeing that QB run game, they're doing the variations of it. It was really exciting to see, especially the Seahawks game. It was the famous, you know, goal line play. And we second guess that. But Seahawks made a nice play on it. But it was fun seeing that. It seems like 25 years. years ago. Oh my God, right? And then, you know, Cam got COVID. Weird things kind of happened. You know, team, they're really figuring themselves out. It's a weird team. And the last couple weeks, you know, the run game got varied again. They're doing a little more stuff. It looks like Cam's healthier. And Cam had a couple freaky Cam Newton. Oh my God, once in a generation

plays today. So it's, that's fun to see. And I agree with you. I, I agree that I want to see this against not the Chargers. And I want to see this, you know, against a real competitive situation. But it is good to see the Patriots doing this thing. I think Bell Belichick loves it. He wants every game to be like this. Special team score, single wing football by the offense and, you know, down and dirty defense, pretty good. And I got to mention the Greg Rosenthal tweet about the Chargers punt returns

that they had 11 on the field, 10 on the field, 12 on the field, and then 10 out of field. In a 4.4. Almost an average of 11, which is where you want to get to. 43 out of 44. So Patriots Thursday night against the Rams and then dolphins builds. So we are not going to have to wait very long for us to see if this is real. Again, they beat the Cardinals last week. I do think that they're trending in the right direction.

But I think the Cardinals are also maybe not the team we thought they were early in the season. A lot of stuff that I think still needs to get sorted out before we start talking about the Patriots in any more of a serious way. All right. Let's get to who won the week. Just win, baby. So we eventually got to two candidates here, but for the most part, I had one with a bullet, and that is Kevin Stefanski. I mean, I've made no bones about the fact that I am a fan. I was a fan of the hire.

I think that he's a fantastic offensive coach. I think that if you watch what they've been over the first half of the season, it's been underwhelming at times. They've also played in like four rainstorms slash blizzards. I mean, it's been very strange. And even last week against Jacksonville, it looked uneven. You know, Baker had a couple really bad moments mixed in with some decent throws. Today they came out and they blitzed the Titans in the first half of that game.

Was there anything specific about his game plan that you thought was particularly good? To me, it just felt like he was pulling all the right levers at all the right times. Yeah, he had a great feel, just a great feel for the flow. I mean, even the receiver pass on third and two, which was like the hardest four-yard gain ever. because Jarvis Landry got smoked and and Baker Mayfield just made actually a hell of a catch on it. And I just want to shout out to all QBs out there because they usually have good hands because they play a lot of catch every day. You keep trying to say this. I am, I'm not buying it.

Shout out. And no gloves usually, no gloves unless you're an old guy, you know, like or Teddy Bridgewater or something. And also, you know, if you have a catch with a receiver or old lineman, they throw it back so, so poorly that you have to adjust real well. So you're used to the bad balls. This is such quarterback bullshit. Anyway, this is great propaganda right now. So I'm not letting you do this. Everyone's going to be like, no, I want everyone not in their head.

So it's, so I kind of noticed early on was the Browns knew what they're getting right away. I think they were testing it a little bit. They're like, hey, Titans don't have a great pass rush. We have a good old line. So they went to empty a little bit early on and it was working. And so they're like, I think they just went to the well. they had some really just just nice stuff not every game are they going to have all day like beggars going to have all day like that but guess what they poured it on and took advantage

you you knew he was feeling it they Titans went down scored it was 177 he came back first play shot play first play confident shot play because that's a counterplay action that's a little because it's either a blow up for a 12 yard loss or it just throws the defense for a loop which it did And it was the out and up move. I mean, just gorgeous. That's why I like it. I love the fact that they pulled so they pulled Wietel around that play to sell the play action even more.

It's just another example of them understanding that our runs need to be tied into our passes. Yes. It's not something where you're just running it as a tacked on thing. They came out in, I think it was either 21 or 13 personnel, the same way they had on that touchdown where it was only one, Donovan People's Jones was the only receiver. They came on and did that earlier in the. game. I think there was a false start and they came, went to a screen right after it.

But so it's a look they show. It's not as if this is just one throwaway play in the playbook. This is something they have. They tied it to the run. The best part about that play is if you watch it, I tweeted out a picture of it. Injoku was wide open. Yeah. Are they over? So if they if they hadn't hit the double move, it joku was wide open to run up the sideline. It's a perfect play. That was great. And I think that beyond, you know, the really impressive one-off play calls. You just watch that game overall. And you mentioned the empty stuff.

They really like giving that stuff to Baker because it helps them see. And so that's a huge part of their game plan all the time, especially in the red zone. They like doing that. But what I like today is they were starting off in it and motioning hunt back into the formation just as a way to subtly give Baker information. That was it. And they've done such a good job of that, I think, in their passing game in recent weeks where obviously the play action boot stuff, puts him in positions to succeed. That streamlines everything.

But I think just again, quietly giving him information, making the game easier for him in these subtle ways. They do that all the time. And when they hired Kevin Stefansky, I've had multiple conversations with Kevin in my life

about various things and for various stories. And he's always struck me as someone who has the right temperament for this kind of job. He's open-minded. He's humble. He's smart. He's seen a lot of football

in different ways. I think the fact that he came from so many different staffs, I thought was a huge advantage for him because he doesn't come from one place. And he's just, again, he likes the ideas. He likes picking stuff. I remember him telling me the story about how he fell in love with the Kubiak keepers. And it was in 2009 when he was a quality control coach. He was just studying it. He's like, I love that. So he's just picking and choosing. And I think that that makes you, it gives you an open minded approach to the game that's really good if you're a head coach. That's why I liked the hire initially. I probably didn't give him enough. credit as just a play caller. And him being able to press the right buttons at the right time. And I think today was a perfect example of that. Even the two screens that they ran, like I said, that first and 15, they hit it to Chubb. Then there was a second and 10 where they hit it to hunt.

He just seemed to know exactly, again, what levers to pull at the exact right moment. When you see a play caller in that kind of zone, it's just fun to watch. You know what's a really cool play that I kind of encapsulates like how the Browns are kind of feeling that on offense a little bit was the big man touchdown to the to the tackle eligible. And on that play, Chubbs sells out over the top, like full blown Walter Payton style going

Michael Jordan and Space Jam trying to dunk it. And he lined up as a fullback. And they had both backs in the backfield. So they had Shub as a fullback and they had as the tailback. So it was again, go ahead. But that's why it's fun because it's just,

again, it's one more layer than it's probably necessary for that play to work. But you can just tell, they're in their bag about stuff like that. Yeah, and they know what the play was about because Chubb sells over top and Hunt gets shot out of a candidate

on the swing because he has to pull the defender across because how that goal line defense has to be played. He has to cover it. That's first to the flat right there. And then the tackle sells out, and I'm blanking on his name right now, but he sells out on the play, one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi. He fully gets committed

to it. Kendall Lamb's the third tackle. Great catch, dude. And then Baker, though, like you know, he holds his eyes on the swing with, he knows the tackle's releasing. So he's going to have a free runner at him. He holds his eyes on the swing before coming back calmly and hits the touchdown. Everybody on that play knew what the play was about.

They knew how to sell out on it and knew how what their job, their role, know you're like, you know, that's the classic the Patriots thing. Do your job. Do your job well. They did it on that play. It was, that was the play that was really excited me about what they're doing. And other guys are stepping up. Like Landry's had a couple nice game.

Yeah, it's the Jags. last week, but he had another nice game today. He's playing awesome, dude. Yeah. There's no need to diminish it. He's playing awesome. His long reception on the year is 32 yards. And it's awesome.

And he's still torching it. But he's doing nice things. I mean, he's always been a heady player. Like, he's one of the first guys I'll go to a ref about something or I call time out or get out of balance. Like he's just a really head player. Yeah, he's coming in his own. I love the nuances of his game, those little tiny wrinkles.

His touchdown today, he comes in short, motion to give himself a two-way go against that corner. And the guy had inside leverage and he sold the corner route and then just did a nasty head fake to get him back inside. And that's, he scored a touchdown. And it's just like those little tiny things with that motion, now the corner is like, there's so much space outside. There's so much space outside. There are alarm bells going off in his head. And he sells it and comes right back. I was like, oh, that's nasty. Yep. And it's and I think that again, it's just those little tiny details. That motion creates that play. And it's, and understanding why you're doing it.

Motion for the motion's sake, we know it doesn't matter. But every time it feels like they're doing it for a reason. It's to give Baker information or it's to put that corner in a bind. They've done so many little things like that, especially today. And again, it's just an extension of what has been a really impressive season from them. And this was more from them than I think we've seen it. I think it's more from Baker than we've seen. I don't think he did anything crazy.

You know, the second touchdown throw to Higgins on the double move was like, Oh, that's a nicely placed ball. The one he had to Higgins on third down where he had to make a second reaction throw to the pylon. That was a nice play. For the most part, though, he just has to keep the train on the tracks. It's a very well-designed train. And I think this was the best version of it that we've seen. He really is Homer.

Well, I shouldn't call it the monorail because that monorail was so crappy in the Simpsons. Yeah, exactly. That's a terrible comparison. I know. I know. That's a terrible comparison. But that's all he has to be. He has to be that kind of conductor of this kind of train or this kind of monorail.

but a better one. Do you think he can be like Jared Goff? Yeah. And if that's what he is, that's probably enough, right? Yeah. I mean, this is an offense without Odell Beckham. Like, this team has a lot of talent on it. Where Goff is more accurate, I actually think of a little more consistent, even as weird as

to say, Baker can at least ad lib a little bit better than Goff and they're on the move and do so. It's totally right. It's just the little tradeoffs there. So it's that's that I think that's. a tradeoff. I think operating out of empty, they are kind of comparable. They just have different little strengths. It's the exact same crutch they give their guys. It's the exact same idea. Stick, stick, stick. Oh my God. Just empty stick over and over and over. And it's like, hey, if it works, it works. If it gets, you know, if it's second a log. Also, they run double slants

for Baker like 40, like 10 times a game. It's just because it gives him a really easier. But he threw the inside one today. There was a moment where I think he finally learned from the Steelers game. He finally came back to it after the Steelers game when Maker Fitzpatrick just to him. Listen, I don't, we can't make fun of Baker. He had a big game and he's doing what he needs to do. All right.

Let's get to our second candidate here for who won the week. We have not talked about this team at all on the show. And I've wanted to because I've talked to people that really think they're doing a great job. And that is the Giants and their defense. And Patrick Graham, their defensive coordinator specifically. They beat the Seahawks 17 to 12 today. And sometimes when you go back through some of those ugly games, think, oh, maybe it was fluky, you know, a couple of turnovers.

Absolutely not. They stuck with the Seahawks and really gave them a hard time, play in and play out today. I loved going back and watching them. They were doing a lot of fun stuff. Was there anything specific about their game plan that you think was particularly effective? You can tell they're so well coached. I mean, they're just even like a simple play, they have a screen that they sniffed out. And you can just hear the entire defense.

screen and it was like three guys ran over and like you know i think russell got an intentional grounding which i feel like maybe it's just anecdotal but i feel like he had like four intentional grounding stay or something it just seemed weird like he had a lot of panic throws but they they had that disciplined pass rush whenever williams has been unlocked um but they have that discipline big pass rush that can give these scrambling qbs a lot of fits because if they push the pocket make it feel enclosed on them especially a guy like russell that's you know that's shorter they can make them feel entrapped in there. And if they're not getting out of whack with their past rush lanes, then, you know,

they can cause sacks or cause frustration for the offense. And, you know, shout out to like, Drewill Peppers. He had a nice game. He had a sack where he blew up the whole play. I want to talk about that. Continue, though. He knew, I mean, he nuked it. I mean, James Bradbury's had a nice season.

He is completely justifying that contract. Like, he is, I mean, he's a legit corner for them. You know, oh, another great play that the Giants have that you can really just see. the good things and just how the whole defense is playing as a whole unit. It was a fourth and one in third quarter.

Seahawks run a little run a front side play action where Russell boots to the front side and it was completely sniffed out. Like they had no shot of convert in that, no shot of scrambling for us. Everyone did a fantastic job on that play. My favorite part of that play

and so they tried to sneak Carson out into the flat on fourth and one on that play action. The corner on that side did a great job as the flat defender. No hesitation. And you knew exactly where he had to be. Bradbury, I think it was probably like a three-level route. And Bradbury got underneath whatever the corner was on that play.

It's usually a flood concept. So you'll have a flood, like an over in a big corner or something like that with those. And so, and my favorite part was on a lot of those routes, you have that the backside option where you throw back into the formation. The Rams do it a lot with cup. Yep. And one of the tight ends for the Seahawks was right there. And Blake Martinez did not take the bait. he sat right under that instead of following Russell to the sideline and it was a huge play.

And you see that stuff consistently from them. And it's really fun to watch. The Pepper's Sack was one of my favorite plays of the entire day. He nuked it. Just. It was the first play of the second quarter. They came out. I'm curious what the personnel was on that play because I think that he was a third linebacker and they only had four other defensive backs on the field.

I was curious how it worked out. Big nickel maybe or something like that. I think that's what it might have been. Which makes sense with him. Yes. And so they, he lined up and they had five across. And they did a little stunt with the nose and the end. And so they took the entire left side of the line that way.

And it was really just him as a free rusher goes all the way through, blows up Chris Carson. Like blows him up. And then he had another play in that game where he took on a pulling guard. on a run play and just blew it up, just like a 220 pound safety, just playing out of his mind and playing super hard. You see that consistently with them, and the effort is obviously there,

but they're doing some stuff just with the game plans and everything else. Russell was lost in that game, and because you had no idea what they were going to do. So many plays where they're lining up in a pressure look and they're dropping everybody in rushing four. They'll bring five, but you don't know where it's coming from. A lot of zone pressures where they are,

or just dropping out, playing zone behind it, really hard to distinguish. I mean, this is a team that it's kind of one of my favorite parts about them is that Patrick Graham comes from New England and he was in Miami last year. So you think, man, man, man, man. They don't do that much man coverage. They sprinkle it in, but they run more cover three than any team in the league right now, but they're getting to it in ways that it's hard to distinguish. And I think you see quarterbacks playing against them right now where they're playing really slow.

And this isn't a one-off thing. They came into this game, 11th in the NFL in EPA per play on defense, 11th in yards per play. And there is not that much talent on that defense. It's not like this is a group aligned with stars. The front plays very well. Dexter Lawrence had a really nice play today. I think on a fourth and short. They're just big.

They're just big. They control line of scrimmage. And then like you said, and I think this isn't an accident. A lot of credit to Patrick Graham for what he's done with that defense. And I think that they're putting those players consistently in positions to succeed. So I was talking to Blake Martinez for a story earlier this year that I was working on. And just offhandedly, I asked him, you know, you're playing really well. You know, is there anything different about the scheme that you feel fits your style,

da-da-da-da-da-da, whatever the bad question was. And he said, and I thought this is really telling. And this is what he said. He said, I think for the most part, the biggest thing in this defense is the overall fundamentals that are ingrained in it, whether it's understanding where you're supposed to be on every single play, how it all kind of works together. It's just heightened to another degree.

I think that's the biggest difference for me is that aspect. Being able to go into a play and not only understand what I'm doing and how I affect the play, but how the guy next to me affects it, how the guy in front of me affects it. Everything works on a string. And I think that's something I didn't have a full understanding of in previous years. That is the best compliment you can give a defensive coordinator. Absolutely. It sounds so funny.

Like even before you said that quote, I was going to say. How about Packers fans are probably just like, what the hell? Like, no, we hate Blake Martinez. And I mean, I was part of that. I saw the bad plays last year, him running underneath blocks, then bringing pressures. And maybe, you know, maybe it was just, that's what happens sometimes, especially with defensive guys. They get put in these situations where it's no win situations and they have to shore something up.

And it looks like shit. And we're, and I've been guilty of it. I think every person that's ever watched football has been guilty of it where it's, they just get put these situations via bad coaching or inconsistent scheme. or something of that nature. And like you said, speaks, that's such a high compliment. That was,

that's always the thing on an offensive side that you hear about, not just a concept, you'll hear a receiver saying, hey, the light bulb went off when I understood. Yep. Not just my route, but the entire concept and why I have to sell my ass off on this,

or, you know, run my ass off on this route because it opens up something underneath. And that's always so much fun to hear as a coach with players because you hear, you sometimes get in the college, you get in the pros, guys, it hits it at different levels when all of a sudden it's like,

oh, that's my role. I'm not going to always make that play. Sometimes I do, but if I sell out and hit this B gap, that means, you know, the other linebacker, the D-N that's coming across or a D-Tackle that's looping around can make their play. I remember what I was playing with Chris Boreland in college. He looked at me one time because they had a couple of different linebacker coaches like three years in a row. And Chris Boren is probably one of the smartest football players I've ever been around of, smartest dudes I've ever been around of, been around.

And he goes, he's like, Tice, I don't know who to keep. I had one coach say to fullback, one coach stayed the guard. And I want to do both because I get why both work. But I like, I don't know what to do on this play. And he was just saying because, you know, he wanted to be the good teammate. But he's like, which way, how am I going to be a good teammate? I have to listen to the new coach, even if I saw the old coach's technique work. And that's always stuck with me.

It's like, hey, defensive guys just have to get, they have to be good teammates. And that's why plays where, you know, the Kalil Max of the world, they'll do these crazy plays where they knife. inside and make a TFL or a sack, and they're called Better Bees because you better be right because you might sell out one of your other teammates. You know, obviously, the coaching has been very good, but I think you have to give credit to the job that Dave Gettleman did bringing in the guys he did this office. And I think that it's not an accident when multiple guys succeed in a system when you bring them

in his free agents. I think Bradbury and Martinez both have worked out, but I think it's a combination of picking the right players and putting them in the right spots. And the other guy that I think is an underrated part of this equation is getting Logan Ryan for nothing. Yeah. Getting him off the street in the summer and it's getting the right kind of guys. I was talking to Martinez about it.

And we were talking about how difficult it is to iron out communication when you're not meeting as much and when the practice schedule was so disrupted. And he was telling me that him and Logan Ryan early in the season at lunch would just sit there and just go over stuff like, what are you seeing here? What are you seeing there and just work on their communication because the nickel and the middle linebacker are going to be the ones talking and ironing that stuff. out. And I think that they have the right guys in the center of that defense to distill whatever those coaching points are and put those guys in the right spots to succeed. And I think that you're

seeing that. They've done a fantastic job. Are you at all worried about the Seahawks offense? I know we should be a little bit, but I wanted to make this more about the Giants because I think they played extremely well today. And I think that we haven't talked about them enough. Are you in full out panic mode about the Seahawks or do you feel like this is a little bit of a blip? I think it's another defense that gives them fits. It's a disciplined pass rush that sprinkles in those blitzes that catch them. And they have guys, like a guy like Bradbury, that can take DK out a little bit. And when Russ gets, when you never really want to see.

It's really similar at Rusty to the ones that have given them trouble over the last few weeks. Yeah. Exactly. So it's this, you know, the too high where they can sit and zone in too high and make Russ be patient because Russ can't do his kind of quasi ad lit plays. So where he create, you know, a five-yard route turns into a 14-yard gain because of just how the scramble drill works out. And when a disciplined pass rush doesn't let him get out to do that, it's, you know, it's going to be a long day for the Seahawks. It's just not their game. It's they need these explosive plays that Rush creates.

And he usually does it by undisciplined defenses that he fully takes advantage of and just exploits. But when he plays a disciplined defense with, you know, decent pass rush that can push the pocket and a corner that can take out D.K. for, you know, for plays at a time. That's what, that's what can happen. So the Giants are five and seven now. Washington plays the Steelers. It's going to be a tough game for them to win. Very likely the Giants will be in first place.

What's the over-under for that game? It's no one should watch this is what the over-under is. The old XFL, like the over-under used to be like 28 points, 29 points. I assume it's going to be right around that. So Washington, I assume, will lose that game. The Giants are going to be in first place in the NFC East. I think that's right. I think that they're the team that I'd want to see in the playoffs more than any of the others.

Maybe Washington's there, their defense. been good. But I, and I think that Alex Smith is giving them a little bit of juice on offense. Their offense is coming in their own a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's close. I mean,

it is. Watching the Giants play like they did today and some of the stuff their defense is done over the last few weeks, it just feels like that defense is something that could give somebody problems. It's just better than train. Yeah. It's just better than train wrecks that we were expecting. It's like, oh, okay.

They have some traits. They have some redeemable quality. So it's like, okay. All right. We might get a fun eight and 18 now or a fun seven and 19, as opposed to just a, you know, blasphemous six and ten team that shouldn't be there. Let's have Vince ask the question. The Eagles dropped 3-8 and 1 after getting beat up by the Packers.

There was a moment where it seemed like that game might be close after Jaywood Rager returned a putt for a touchdown. But it was not a watchable game. Carson Wentz gets yanked in the second half of this game. With 6 of 15 for 79 yards took four sacks. Watching him clutch and take sacks is just, becoming a real familiar part of my Sunday. Jalen Hertz comes in, makes one big play. You know, not that much better.

But we've gotten to a point where this has become a real conversation. And I would assume that Wence starts next week when they line up. But the fact that it's even a dialogue is very telling. Does it seem like the Carson Wence thing is over to you with the Eagles? I mean, is there any salvaging this in your opinion? just so much with how reading between the lines and the statements and stuff, it's just like, they're just like defeated. They're like, oh, yeah, we, like, whence they even know that they changed play callers for

the week? Did you see that quote? Yeah, like, he didn't even know until after the game that they changed play callers. I think if I was reading the quote correctly, look it up. I'm sorry, I don't have it on me. But like, that is, you know, that just kind of speaks to what they're doing. It just feels like it's like, they're just like, yeah, whatever, we're done with them. And it sucks.

you know, I thought Wens still had a chance, but like you said, every Sunday now, it's that how many times do you see it? It looks like quick game. And there's Wentz with a wide stance in the pocket, like taking his hand off to pat the ball like three times. And then he just gets way late, like real late in the end of the count or someone gets beat real quick. They just look disjoint it. I don't think a- Well, he talks and runs it into the back of his guard. Yeah. I mean, even in moments where it's not crumbling that fast, he just has such little feel for what's going on around him. I don't, I'm really curious what happens with this team. And we're going to get to some of this in a second about their future. But I don't, I think it depends probably what happens with the front office. Like if Roseanne stays and they just move on from the coaching staff, there's probably a world where they talk themselves into trotting once out there again with the different staff. With the same GM that took up that selected them too.

Yes, they gave them that contract. Yeah. And so I just think it depends on what happens with the entire franchise in a way. Because if there's still people in the building that are his advocates and are the ones that, but at the same time, this is the same front office that draft the jail and hurts. It's just, I mean, every single time, it's like, well, I mean, it's really hard to get a feel for what it looks like beyond this season just because of that draft pick. And when it happened, the money aspect of it felt so hard to move on from.

It's like, oh, this is kind of wonky, but it probably doesn't say much about Carson Wentz's future. Now, I think it definitely says something about Carson Winst's future because there's a world where they can trade him and it actually works out financially and it might be the best thing for the franchise. Yeah, it's, I completely agree with that. I think that they need a reset button. Just like we've talked about the Falcons kind of did too. They just have that stink over them, even though they won the Super Bowl. So it's like, okay, at least they did what they need to do and they did the goal that everyone strives for. But it's like, okay, but they used up all their good juju.

It's like, it's their mojo's gone. It's like it's depleted. It's, you know, it's, it's bad. I was going to make an awesome powers joke and I just saved everybody from it. But it's, it's one a.m. on the East Coast. It's all right. So, you know, it just, it looks ugly. It's just, they have nothing going for them.

Like, what's their identity right now? Is it the O line? It's the run game. No, nothing. It's just a whole bunch of question marks. That's what they look like as an entire franchise. So let's put a pin in that and get back to the Eagles in a minute. But one more here with what the hell just happened.

I think the Cardinals are in trouble. So they lose 38 to 28 today against the Rams. That game was not as close as that score would indicate. They had one broken play in the first half for a long touchdown of Dan Arnold. Outside of that play, Kyle and Murray did not complete a pass until the two-minute drill. He finished the half, three of 12 for 73 yards. You take out that busted coverage on the Dan Arnold completion.

It's two of 11 for 14 yards. And those two completions were in the two-minute drill. They ended up scoring a touchdown in the second half off a muff punt. And they got a short field and they scored. The aesthetics of that game were not 38 to 28 in favor of the Rams. It was much more lopsided than that. I think we've gotten to a point where the cream has kind of risen to the top and things have started to separate.

When you see a good team, you know it's a good team. That's the place in the season that we've reached. And when you watch the Cardinals right now, they're not a good team. They are not in the same class as those other teams. And considering our expectations coming into the season, maybe that shouldn't be a surprise. I thought that they could maybe sneak into the wild card, which they absolutely could. They still could do that. But I thought it would be a promising, if unspectacular a year from that.

but they've really hit a slide here. And it just like we've said in the past, their passing game seems to have absolutely no rhythm to it whatsoever. And I just don't see them finding it before the season is over. The good teams kind of just find a way to get it done, even the matchups that aren't, but you know, great for them, where it's like, you know, the Rams defense matched up fantastic. They match up fantastic against most teams,

but especially the Cardinals. I've tweeted it. We talked about it. It's how the Rams want to play and they're too high with Jamon Ramsey on one side is how the Cardinals want to line up. They want to go trips to one side and DeAndre Hawkins isolated on the other side and do stuff with Kyler run their own version of ISO ball. Rams are fine with that.

The Rams defense, this stuff that they're doing and I've talked about a couple times on this podcast, it's a really came to prominence in college in the Big 12. And because of offenses that Cliff Kingsbury ran and others that are Texas based, you know, from the high schools of Texas and what they've done. the error rates, you know, proliferated throughout college and the pros now. But it was designed to do that to stop RPO's to have safeties come up on the run and also stay back. And so they're fine playing against the Cardinals passing game. You know, I think their game was like, hey, limit the run game.

Cowers banged up a little bit. So it's going to be limited anyways. And, you know, going to their- They're daring them to run, though. They're daring teams to run with it. They're sitting there lining up with six guys in the box and saying, please run the ball. And I just love it as a strategy. because their safeties are so smart.

Fuller and Johnson both are so smart. And physical. That they can identify stuff so quickly that they can play downhill. There was a play who was second and six in the first half, I want to say. And same idea. Lied up with six guys in the box.

And Fuller just plays straight downhill for a two-yard gain from 12 yards, 14 yards back. And if you can do that like they can, because there are guys play so physical and so quick upstairs, it opens up everything for you. And they consistently are able to do that.

They were just two steps ahead of the Cardinals this entire game. Yeah, that's what, and that's what you need safeties to do. And there can, four is just one of my favorite players of the year. Sixth round rookie just looking like this. Because doing the quarter safeties, it's,

you know, cover four, you think it's a safe defense, but the safeties have to be part of the run game. They are the forced defenders. So they have to be physical or at least heavy enough to filter stuff back inside. When you get a guy,

like you just said, that's physical and smart, like the safeties that the Rams have. It's a great combination. And they have enough speed to not, you know, get beat over the top. And they're smart enough to know when you're trying to get attacked over the top. And sorry, I was just thinking too. It's like you're saying you kind of know now it's like the good teams kind of stand out. And you kind of just know it when you see it.

It's like the kind of like the spreeb court ruling for like obscenity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's exactly. It's like, you don't have to swing anymore. That since been debunked and is like no longer something that people use in the legal world. So I try not to cite it all the time. Yeah, it's not a real thing. It's one of my favorites.

Okay. I know. It's not a real thing. I've been to college over a decade, so that's... I tend, I think that's kind of the same thought I have where you just, you know a good team when you see it at this point in the season. And when you watch them, that's not what they are. And they try, I mean, they completed more passes than the second half. Kyler average 4.74 air yards per attempt in the second half.

No good team goes down. It was all horizontal. Yeah, no good team goes down 18 to 2 in the first down differential in the first half. Like that's, no, good offenses have a couple bad series, maybe even a bad game, but they don't look like that. They don't go down 18 to 2 in the first down differential if you want to be, you know, a real playoff contender with it and you know, with your offense as your trait as your lead, you know, your lead force of your team. So if you can't rely on that, that's scary. All right. So let's get to what you rather.

And I want to get back to the Eagles here. This is a question that I probably shouldn't be asking because it's just going to make me sad. But over the last few weeks, as I've been watching the Eagles and the Bears, I've just been struck so often by how similar the situations are and how they went through the same kind of desperation checklist over the last year. You change coordinators, you shift your offensive staff. In the Bears case, they found a new quarterback. The Eagles drafted a quarterback. So they really do seem like they followed similar paths at this point. would you rather be the bears or the eagles for the next three years considering everything about their situations

i mean we've compared them so much especially with their you know the andy reed offensive you know bizarre i didn't even mention that part bizarre worlds they are seriously just two sides of the same coin it's amazing yeah i and not just because my preference that i i've always wanted to live in chicago again uh but i i definitely I definitely would go with the bears. Just some of it's more of the lesser of two evils. I don't want to navigate the Eagles contract situation. I wouldn't want to navigate Wence's deal or hurts. And in doing just having to make those tough decisions,

I just want to alleviate my own headaches. And a part of that is, you know, being in Chicago, I think they just have a quicker way to hit the reset button, maybe with decisions and things that can come up that would, you know, you get you to that situation. I think it's just one of those things that it's, that's what I would go for. I just think you have Khalil Mack.

I know the contract. He's older. You have a couple pieces, but at least you have stars. So I think it's like if you hit it with the quarterback and I think that's, I mean, you have to do it. It's like,

at least you know what your path is. Hey, we got to take a quarterback early. You go to Philadelphia. It's, are we sticking with Wentz? Are we going with the new quarterback? We're going with a hurts.

You know, that's, and you don't have the contract room. You have to make maybe harder decisions to get to that situation where you're deciding on your quarterback. No, I think Chicago is just the easier play. And I know no good things.

I mean, it's the choice between the easier thing and the harder thing. And usually the harder thing is the better thing. In this case, I'm sorry, Professor Dumbledore is that I would just go with Chicago and would go it the easy way. You're making Austin Powers references. You're making Harry Potter references. Just bringing it back to 2000. It's not a witching hour on this podcast.

So it's tough for me because I could see it both ways. the Eagles are in trouble financially, but that's always overstated. Yeah. Almost all the situations. I think next year's circumstances are unique enough where it's probably not exaggerated. This team, even if they carry over $20 million in cap room, still $60 million over $175 million count for 2021. They're going to have to make some cuts.

And there are logical names. Deshawn, Alshan Jeffrey, Malik Jackson, Zach Ertz, all of those guys they can move on from, but they're still over the cap, even if that happens. They're going to do need to do some gymnastics. And I don't know what this team looks like when you start stripping it away. Like you said, with the bears, you know who the pieces would be. I don't know what the core of this would be without those guys. I think the line is still there, but the line is also aging and banged up.

So it's not the strength that it used to be. On defense, you still have Fletcher Cox and Brandon Graham. But outside of that and Darius Slay, that's really all you have on that side of ball and the strengths you used to have really no longer there. The Wendst thing is the biggest question. I'm of the mind that it feels like they should probably try to trade him and see what they can get for him. Because if they trade him before the third day of the league year next year, he counts for

about $33 million against the cap, which is what he would make. They would save money on next year's cap if they traded him. The question is, who would want that contract? And my answer is probably some. somebody because the eagles have paid so much of it already up front you're dealing with cap hits i think over the next two years that are like 25 and 22 million which you know not small but tolerable for a quarterback so if you're for example if you're frank rike and you go and you watch what you saw from kartson once this year and you know what you've got from him in the past

and you think he's salvageable the eagles or the excuse me the colts could absolutely fit him in and have that be their future quarterback plan i think it's a really good risky one, considering how poorly he's played. But a team like that could talk themselves into Carson Wentz if they were fans in the past and think, if we get him in a different circumstance, we can still save it. And the Colts have the cap room to tolerate that. They have to swallow. Yeah, more than enough. Yeah. It's not just like they're like, all right, we're kind of pushing it in here. It's like, no, they at least have can go, okay, this didn't work out. We can, we can pivot off of this. Any team that had earmarked money for a quarterback would be able to do it. So the

Quarterbacks, that's the going rate. And most people will have that money earmark for a quarterback if you had a veteran, whatever. The 49ers theoretically could do that if they wanted to. I don't think they would. But any sort of team like that. So that's the biggest question. If you trade once, what happens? I think they, if they like Hertz, then he's their answer at quarterback.

That's the advantage they have over the Bears right now in my mind, is they have an in-house answer at quarterback if they think he's the guy of the future if they move on from once. The Bears don't have that. And that's my biggest question about the Bears. is what does the next step look like? Because there are a couple different paths, in my opinion. You could blow it out.

You could completely blow it up. You could trade Mac next year, see what you get for him, and tear the whole thing down. You move on from Hicks. You try to trade fuller possibly. You have guys like Eddie Jackson and Eddie Goldman that you just re-signed that are still there. But for the most part, you tear this thing all the way to the studs.

And you say 2021 is a complete loss cause. We're bottoming out. Let's see where we go. I don't think they have a fortitude as a franchise to go that route. They're not a bold organization in the same way that some of these other teams are that have done that in the past. You need ownership to buy into that. You need ownership that's willing to make a dramatic, take a dramatic approach to this. Open-minded.

Historically not been that. So then if you don't do that, what's the answer? And I think that, again, you can strip yourself some of these contracts. I think a couple of names that jump out. Jimmy Graham, obviously, Bobby Massey, somebody you can move on from. Hicks, even though it would hurt is a way to save a lot of money next year. You can get under the cap. You can almost get to a place where you'd be able to franchise Alan Robinson comfortably

if you wanted to say, let's bring this core back. I'm hesitant about that approach just because I think it's a half measure that has done this team in before. And talking yourself into that sort of approach can be dangerous. But in your mind, if you think the left side of the line with Leno, Daniels, and white hair is tolerable, the weapons are fine if you can bring Robinson back. You need a new offensive staff and a new quarterback. Where you find those things is the most important thing. And that's why the Bears losing that game today, I'm sitting there being like, great,

keep on doing this because if you somehow finish the season 5 and 11 or 6 and 10 and the Lions don't pick a quarterback or they don't move on from Stafford, whatever. You put yourself in a position to have the ninth or tenth pick in this draft. It's a four-quarterback draft, and you like the fourth quarterback, and you're in a position to get one. Maybe that changes things if you bring in a new staff. This is wishful thinking. It's probably optimistic thinking. It's all not going to come together in that way.

I do think that there is a route out of this that's not the full scale tailor down that the bear's ownership would be afraid to do. And I think that route is harder to find for the Eagles. The last time the Bears went with a BYU quarterback, they know it with Jim McMahon. That's right. It worked out just fine. So we get another BYU quarterback with a headband on, man. In this hypothetical scenario, Ryan Pace is not doing the quarterback picking, by the way. Correct.

I mean, I think that's a new front office. Every bear's hypothetical. I understand that with you. We need to make that clear. And I think that that question now raises another question. does a first year front office want to pick a quarterback after only having a few months to understand what they want to do with this team?

A lot of times you'll see teams pass on quarterback with the first year of a new GM because they're not ready to make that sort of commitment. And if the Bears, even if they had a top 10 pick, would they be ready to do that sort of thing? That's another question that is unanswerable right now. So my long-winded answer to this question is I think it's the Bears,

but it's very close in my eye. mind because of the uncertainty from what the quarterback position is going to be for that team for the next three to four years. I mean, I could go forever on with this, the Bears rebuild and everything else. But in your mind, it's like, all right, you know, they still have the defensive core. Yeah. If you have Mack. But at the same time, it's like, I don't want them to think they're one or two pieces away because they're probably not. And that becomes dangerous. Like you said, no half measures. It's, it's, it's, you're either all in or nuking it. And I think when you get there, as soon as you got into Chicago or, you know, or like, you know, Lake Forest, you just

nuke the team. You know, you nuke the team. You know, that's what you have to do. We'll see what happens. I don't want to go further down that rabbit hole because it's something I can talk about for two hours. All right, before we get out of here, I want to do a secret sauce. We have not done this in a while. Not today, my good man. I'm feeling saucy. So one thing that jumped out to me today, the Colts beat the Texans in a pretty close game was 26 to 20. They could have lost that game. But a couple really fun plays from the Colts in the first half that I think are indicative of how they solve problems on third down and in high leverage moments. They lean on mesh often as one of their core plays. The way that they use it

compared to other teams, what is unique about it? Because they hit Hilton on a touchdown today where he was wide open out the back door on one of them. And the touchdown to Jonathan Taylor was also off of a mesh play on fourth down. So high leverage moments against teams that play a lot of man coverage. They lean on it. Is there anything specific about their version of it that allows them to dig into it when they need it most? It's funny you say dig into it because most mesh concepts will have the double

crossing routes going each way and then they'll have a dig behind it. Yeah. What the Colts like to do with Rivers is running over on the inside, which is running away. And I think that's just indicative of what the defenses are more over in the NFL version of mesh. I think back when you saw too high when he ran these types of plays when Mesh was installed. Like Mike Leach is what in college at Texas Tech and at Kentucky and Oklahoma when he was a coordinator. That's with Howl Mummy, that's what Mesh made popular.

And it just became just a national play, just a play that's a day one install for so many teams. The thing with Mesh is that everyone's like, why does everyone run this? It's a play, just like a lot of good plays is you have to rep the hell out of it. Because it has a lot of answers depending on how you do it. But the quarterback has to find those answers because it's one of those plays where if you guessed wrong, you are effed because there's not a checkdown coming into some of these route combos. You have to pick one of the crossers going on either direction. You pick the wrong one. Screwed.

It was really cool. The first two meshes I saw in this game, first one he hits the crosser. It was against a blitz. They brought five. And on a blitz in a five-man pressure and man, defenders will play with inside leverage. And we're playing with inside leverage because they're using the outside, the out of balance as their next help defender. Um, Hilton won easily on this crosser. It was a pressure.

Rivers replaced the pressure hits the crosser. It's a catch and run. Later in the drive, it's, uh, I think it was a third down, a fourth down. They hit over out to, to Hilton. And why the ball goes to different places on these plays is it's a different version of man. So this man is one hole. So it's a non-pressure. It's a four man rush version of man.

And in that, you'll sometimes get a robber safety. And some, a lot of these, the general one is a linebacker sitting there in the hole. Either reading the, uh, reading the quarterback's eyes, just, cause it a muck. If a crosser comes, he'll collision the crossers, make it just muck it up. What the Colts did on that, they occupied the whole defender. The outside defenders, the corners are playing with outside leverage because where's their help?

It's the whole player on it inside. So Hilton runs this overrout with an outside leverage playing defender. And it just shows a smart QB if they run mesh, Rivers is going to know where to go with mesh. He just has to have the time for it and the guy has to win, you know, if it's a crosser or whatever. So it's like they major in it. Not a lot of teams major in it. A lot of teams will install it.

Iowa, Wisconsin, we try to install it. And it was like, man, why does the mesh work for us? Well, it's got to be one of your major plays. It's got to be a top five play call for you. And the Colts major in it. And that's why it's so cool to see him because the ball is going to the right place. And it's a fun play when the ball goes to the right place. I just love it in those third down moments because like we were talking about with the

Raiders, when they didn't have anything quick as a response to some of those pressures. I just love that it unfolds right in front of the quarterback. It gives him options in those moments. and Rivers is so smart that he's typically going to pick the right one. And you just saw it in those high leverage moments today. They kept going to that play. And it's just so beautiful when it works. When you see those two, so we probably should explain what it is.

Essentially, you're having two guys cross from either side of the formation right in the middle of the field in front of the quarterback. What's the depth on it typically? Like depends. Four to six. Four to six yards. Yeah. Sometimes those people say occupy the whole player, which can make it a little muddled. But yeah, four to six.

So you have that cross and then things are happening behind it. The Jonathan Taylor play, the reception for the touchdown today. That happens just he went out the back door to the right. I mean, it's just they have different sort of wrinkles on it. And it's a fun play because you have that same core concept at the center of it where you literally have two guys at the center crossing and all these things that can happen off of it. And the Eagles go, or excuse me, the Eagles have run it a lot in the past too. But the Colts go to it over and over in these high leverage moments.

And I think today was a perfect example. Uneven performance from their offense. It wasn't the best game that they've had. But when they needed something, they hit those plays. And eventually it gave them enough breathing room to win the game. Yeah. Kind of like outside zone, mesh is fun because everyone can put their own little flavor on it. And the Colts have their flavor like Baker Mayfield prefers because I think it just comes from the Oklahoma days,

but he ran under Lincoln Riley. He likes having an alert read on an out route, like a field out route. So he'll just bypass everything going on the middle, the triangle read that goes on the middle and just bypassing. and hit the out route almost to a fault he does this by the way but it's but it's fun because he probably preferred that that air raid that different air raid version of it so it is a fun play like you said that out the back door you hit a bullet to a running back that's a common wrinkle and mesh and defenses especially like a defense like nick savin that runs these two high match stuff in college or other defense that you know proliferates in the NFL now is they pass off because they got beat by mesh so much they had a linebacker

manned up with a runnerback wheeling up the side. So what they did is, hey, that crosser comes underneath, the corner falls off and just waits for the wheel route. And how many, especially watch Alabama, how many interceptions come off the quarterback, some quarterback not knowing what the hell match defenses are because their coach didn't tell them or just ignoring it completely. They will try and throw the wheel route, throw the bullet route, right to a waiting corner who's covering a runoffback that's two-tenths of a 40 slower than him.

and it shouldn't be winning these ball winning routes, these 50-50 balls. So the corner just gets these easy picks. Just watch it next time you watch Alabama. They get it like four or five of them a year. But that's why. It's because they were going to beat by that route. So they came up with rules to stop the route. And that's the fun thing with football.

It's these counters that get developed over the years to stop the good plays that the other side of the ball does. All right. So there's your primer on a college concept that's now popular in the NFL and all of the coaching points that come along with it. I appreciate all of you that are still here, an hour and 10 minutes into this show. That's all we got today.

Really fun day. I think a telling day. I think the type of day that is going to set the table here for the final month of the season, like we talked about with the Cardinals, I think the teams are starting to separate themselves, think the teams are starting to identify themselves for what they're going to be down the home stretch and which teams are going to be legitimate and which teams are not.

We'll be back on Wednesday with Mike Sando, which I'm very excited about. He has not gone on since the preseason. Speaking of Mike Sando, the football GM will be running on Tuesday. You guys absolutely should check it out. Mike and Randy Mueller do a great job. We'll be back with Mike on Wednesday with our normal Wednesday show. Until then, thank you so much for listening to The Athletic Football Show. Please rate and review the show on your podcast platform for choice.

And please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. I promise you won't regret it. We'll talk to you guys soon. Thank you so much. This was the Athletic Football Show. Thank you.