The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The Lamar Jackson question, the Jets' infatuation with Aaron Rodgers, and the Panthers' next move at quarterback; day two from the NFL combine

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

We're back with three more beat writers from radio row at the 2023 NFL Combine. The Athletic's Joe Person (Panthers), Zack Rosenblatt (Jets) and Jeff Zrebiec (Ravens) join Robert Mays to break down the pressing questions facing the teams they cover this offseason on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Unsurprisingly, the biggest question for all three teams comes down to the quarterback position.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Joe on Twitter: @josephpersonFollow Zack on Twitter: @ZackBlattFollow Jeff on Twitter: @jeffzrebiecSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.com2:15 Carolina Panthers25:52 New York Jets49:18 Baltimore Ravens Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Continuing our most interesting teams of the off-season theme from here in in Indianapolis at the Combine. Three more writers from The Athletic that we visited with today. I'm going to talk with Jeff Zerebeck, our Ravens writer,

a little bit later about just a looming Lamar question, man. I mean, this has become a juicy thing that I never could have envisioned a year ago, six months ago. A lot to dig into with Jeff. We're going to talk with Zach Rosenblatt, our Jets writer, about kind of a pivotal offseason for the Jets, what they're going to do with quarterback, the state of the rest of that roster. Are they a quarterback away? Is Aaron Rogers the right guy? Loved our conversation with Zach. Before we do that, though, talk about a team that to me is one of the most intriguing teams of the entire league, what they're going to do at quarterback, what their offseason looks like with a new head coach, a team that I think is in a

much better position than we probably thought when they fired Matt Rule back in October. Our Panthers writer, Joe Person, let's get to it. All right. Time now to chat with our Panthers writer here at the Athletic Joe Person. Joe, really appreciate you taking time to do this. This is cool, man. It's been an exciting offseason in Carolina. Now, they're a team that I think, even going into last season, kind of felt left for dead. You know, the quarterback situation was, you know, Sam Darnold again, and Baker Mayfield comes in,

but it feels like a flail of desperation. I think we all kind of knew that the Matt Rule era was on its last legs. He gets fired, what, six weeks into the year? It's like, all right, well, what are they going to do now? They go hire Frank Reich, which I think makes a lot of sense on a lot of different levels. But beyond whatever excitement is created by bringing in a head coach who has had some success, and did a decent job in Indy, we all know how weird the circumstances were there, the coaching staff that they've assembled over the last month or so has created real buzz.

So I think just walk me through some of how the bigger names ended up there and how you think the mindset behind them assembling that coaching staff explains where they are right now. I did a story while he was still assembling it, but he had most of his guys together. And I really could have done it in a tweet, which I did in promoting the story. And it was basically Frank Reich's contacts on his phone and David Tapper's millions, billions. and you and I were talking before we got going here, David Tepper said not long after he bought the team four or five years ago

that very astutely, something we all know, there are no salary caps on coaches' salaries or facilities. He mentioned both of those things. And he was prepared to spend big. I just don't think he really had to with Matt Ruhl's staff because Ruhl brought in a bunch of his temple and Baylor guys. And so we saw what that sort of. sort of confluence produced over these past six weeks or so.

And it's two of the hot coordinator names who were already in head coaching hiring cycles. Multiple. In Edger O'Avero and in, sorry. Thomas Brown. Yes. I was about to say, I typed Brian Johnson's name so often because they were on him too. Yeah. But it's another guy who just got promoted.

So guys that were on the way up and on the right trajectory career-wise. And it's a neat mix of young and old. I mean, doesn't get much older than Jim Caldwell and Dom Capers. Dom just rolling into that press conference. Good for Dom. I remember talking to people, God, it must have been six, seven years ago now. I can't remember who it was, but just talking about having Dom Capers on the staff and what sort of an old, wise voice that he was.

And this is almost a decade ago. And now we're in 2023 and he's still that guy. But the other end of the spectrum, you have two guys, one who's been banning about a name has in previous high. hiring cycles in Josh McCown and DeAngelo Hall, who've never coached today in his life, although McCown did, was a volunteer coach at my kids high school in Charlotte a couple years ago when he was famously flying back from Philly to Charlotte every weekend. But it's a cool staff. And like I said, he did hire, you know, a white head coach, a recycled white head coach.

I think is a good hire. I was on the Steve Wilkes bandwagon. But he then at least surrounded him with a very diverse step. of young, qualified, impressive dudes. Adjero Evereaux was probably the most sought-after defensive coordinator in the league. He was getting head coaching opportunities, rightfully so. You look at what he did with the Broncos. Thomas Brown was a super hot name.

Duce Staley took pretty much the same job in Carolina that he had with Detroit, and it's not like there aren't good feelings about what they're building in Detroit. So I think the power of, we're building something cool, but also we will pay you a lot of money has held a lot of weight in the way that they put this thing together.

I mean, listen, it's never about money. It's always about money. In fairness, Deux Staley grew up in Columbia, South Carolina, about an hour and a half away, and I think his mom is getting older, and he had told her, if I ever get a chance to get close to home, I want to do it. And so that's cool.

And Dom Capers has land that he had never built on in Charlotte that he wants to do. So there was some of that, but there was a lot of money. involved. I'd love, I've been trying to get at the numbers. The response I've been getting is just like a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, that's all you need to know. It's a lot. So speaking of money, I want to ask a couple procedural questions before we get into some of the bigger picture stuff. There are about $2 million over the cap right now. You know, they've spent on guys. There are a lot of, there's a ton of

dead money still on the books right now. It's $28 million. A lot for Christian McCaffrey. And it speaks to kind of the weird team building position that they're in. So how are they going to create? create some wiggle room if you look at the guys that either upper restructures, guys they might move on from, just so we know what they're working with here. Yeah, the main one in terms of just a pure cut would be Shaq Thompson. And I forget the number. I think they save about 10 million, but there's about $11 million in dead money. So if they make that a post-June 1st, they maybe save a little bit more. But again, he's making like 20-something million against the cap. And they can save some, but it's not a ton. He restructured the last two years. So right. They were kicking the financial can down the road in a way that

was not beneficial for their long-term outlook for a while with rule. Right, and they weren't even really that close to contending, which is the thing. I mean, they were always trying to do the quarterback thing, but they will almost certainly restructure DJ Moore and or Taylor Moten, both of whom were extended the last couple years. They've already done a restructure with Austin Corbett. Then there's some smaller deals. I think Pat Elfline's going to get cut, which will be $4 million or so. So that's interesting because I was wondering about his spot in the offensive line situation

because you could theoretically just slot him in at center and have a starting five. So you think they'll move on from him and need to find a solution there. We're getting real in the weeds here. We're talking center talk, 10 minutes into the Panthers conversation. We hadn't even mentioned Derek Carr's name, but I'm about to drop Bradley Bozeman's name right here. No, Bozeman, that team really took, offensively, made a step win. And it coincided with Steve Wilkes taken over. Elfline got hurt. Bradley Bozeman comes in, much more physical up front.

They started giving Deonté Foreman the ball. Interestingly, their most interesting free agents are Bozeman and Foreman. I think Bozeman's the priority, and I think they'll get a deal done with him. So they'll have their whole starting, their front five will be under contract when they get Bozeman. And James Camp and the office of Y coach is coming back. So you have a lot of continuity in an area where they were doing very well. just for people listening. DJ Moore is a $20 million-dollar base salary this year.

So if you want to free up a lot of space borrowing from the bank of DJ Moore, if you're the Panthers, you can do that this off-season. All right, let's get into the real headline grabbing stuff here. Tell me if this is wrong. When I look at the comments from Scott Fitterer and Frank Reich this off season,

they say to me that both of them won off this ride. Frank has been on this veteran quarterback every year. We sign a guy making $30 million a year. It's a short-term solution. They've done that every season in Indianapolis. In Carolina, it's some different bargain basement veteran that maybe this is a stopgap option that we can kind of piece things together with. It's not a fun ride to be on. And I think Scott during his press conference after the season said, you know, the draft and developed model is what we want. And Frank said something similar. So do you think those comments indicate that they really are motivated to try to get a quarterback out of this draft.

I do. And not to put all this on Rule, but Rule was very much driving a lot of the Deshaun Watson talk, the Matthew Stafford talk. They weren't on him. It is fitter grew up in Seattle, Russell Wilson in the third round. He believes in the draft and develop model.

He has said that last offseason. and I think they did the whole quarterback pro day tour last year. I was at Liberty the day they had a whole contingent for Malik Willis. They went and saw Pickett, and famously Fitterer was videoed looking at his hands. But they did Matt Corral. I don't think anyone in the building really thinks he's the answer. The only quarterback under contract right now, I believe. He is, and Jacob Eason on a futures deal.

I'm sorry, I don't mean. That was a mean reaction. Don't you. I'm not too bad about that. Let me tell you, not far be it, I am not a professional scout, full disclosure. I like Jacob Issa when he was at Georgia, man. I mean, he's a big, impressive guy, you know? Quarterbacks in the draft, I think it's going to be the year. They, three times under Matt Rule, they had top ten picks and did not take a quarterback.

And last year, understandable. Right. Like, it's one in the first round. But the one you'd always come back to is them thinking, If we get J.C. Horn and Sam Darnold, it's better than a Justin Fields. And that decision is still kind of determining and defining who the Panthers are in this moment. It's going to be an interesting week here because they're going to meet with Derek Carr. I don't think that's any surprise.

I mean, they will do their due diligence on the veteran market. But I do think their preference is one of those guys at the top of the draft. So they are sitting at number nine right now. They have a lot of ammo. We know this. The Christian McCaffrey trade has given them a ton of picks in the first three rounds. They have 40, which is theirs. They have 62, 94, and 133, which all belong to the Niners.

They traded the 77th pick to the Patriots for Matt Corral. That one still hurts a little bit. Every time I look at it, I'm like, ooh, that's a tough one. Give me 77 back. They still have plenty of ammo, though. Yeah. So you look at the possible trades that might be on the table. Is it worth it if you're Scott Fitterer and Frank Reich to go all the way to number one?

the model about that and the precedent for that that's recently been set, the Niners went from 12 to 3. So nine spots, you go from borderline top 10 into the top three for a quarterback. It costs them first in the next two drafts. That is a steep price, but if you can get the guy that you want and you jump all of these potential teams that need a quarterback, because if you're at 9, think about how many teams might be looking at a quarterback before 1 to 9.

The Texans, the Colts, maybe the same. Seahawks, maybe the lions, the Raiders, and the Falcons, all could potentially look at quarterbacks in this draft. So you want to try to avoid all of that. So I think there's an argument that even if it's an astronomical price, if you think you love a guy, is it worth paying if you're the Panthers? And really, the question is, how much do you love Will Levis? Because I have reported that they, it was, you know, it's been a year ago or at the beginning

part of this past season, they were pretty high on Will Levis. They were watching a lot of tape on him. They went and saw his game. They went and saw everyone this fall. Well-traveled Scott Fetterer. And things could have changed. And certainly probably did. But they were high on Levis.

My point being is, I don't, even with Will Levis, I don't know that they can sit there at nine and think they're going to get them, which that was what you were saying. So then you look at trade partners. Is Seattle at six? Seattle's at four. Five. Excuse me. Seattle's at five.

Detroit or six, yes. Seattle, to me, makes a lot of sense because of the Fitter-John Schneider relationship. And they've, you know, Fitterer called Schneider last year about Russell Wilson, like, hey, and was told, yeah, he's not, he's not one to go east or whatever it was. Didn't want to go to the Panthers. So that makes a lot of sense. And you get to, you get to five. I think you, if it's Will Levis, I think you have a pretty good shot at five that you'll get him. Five, that one makes sense because if you're looking at the possible dance partners for trades, there aren't that many if some of these teams are looking at quarterbacks. The one that would jump out because they have a quarterback under contract,

they probably don't need one, is Arizona, but you have a first-year GM in a year where there are apparently a couple no-brainer-type defensive prospects. A lot of these first-year GMs don't want to do anything wild in year one. I think Kwayzeidofa-Metsa doing the trade that he did last year in Minutes. Minnesota is a little bit different, but the one that I come back to is, let's say Atlanta in the first year under Terry Fontano, where they were just at four. It's like, we're taking the crazy athletic tight end. We're not thinking about it. Same year, Brad Holmes is in year one with the Lions. It's like, we're going to take the really good tackle. We're not going to

overthink this. So I wonder if Maniasan 4th there is like, you know what, we're going to take the really good player, we'll figure the rest out later. If that's off the table, if the Colts end up wanting to draft a quarterback, or if the Bears go back to four, is that a trade partner. It's they dry up faster than you'd think. They do. Even outside of number one. Right. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. And you said, I mean, David Tepper is, is not afraid of a big splash movie. I mean, they had a contingent in Houston last March to, you know, talk with Deshaun Watson. He did, Tepper did pump the brakes on the, on the third and fourth year guarantees with Watson. So, I mean, it's not like he's just going to throw it around, you know,

haphazardly. The future draft picks, you know, that's, the future number ones is where it would get Harry to go to one. That's why I think it's more likely they go up short of one. But if they determine Bryce is that guy, then you probably got to go to one, right? Because again, I think you try to pay a premium to get off of the merry-go-round that both of these guys have been on for the last couple of years. And I also think that you look at the rest of the roster and the state of everything, it's really tempting to think about what this team looks like with the right quarterback. We just talked about the fact that the offensive line is pretty much intact. You have DJ Moore already in place who is, it's why you don't trade a guy like DJ Moore even if you're

in flux or rebuilding, right? Because this happens quicker than you think when you have the bones of a decent team already there. And they do. So outside of quarterback, what do you think are the priorities that if we check X and Y boxes, we can be relevant a lot quicker than it might seem? Before I get to that, Let me make the point, too, that they have the bones in place in a division where the other teams don't necessarily have it. If you hit it on the right guy, it can be your division for the next five years. Absolutely. Every team in the NFC South, we talked about this in our quarterback carousel show. No team as a starting quarterback right now.

Every single team is in flux to the point that Carolina kind of holds the most cards because of sitting in the top 10 and having all the ammo that they have. If you're Carolina, you can almost do the win now thing and, as you said, still be set up pretty good for future success. So I just think this week and this whole offseason is going to be fascinating. So what do you think you can't, especially if the trade doesn't happen soon or before free agency, which probably won't, right? You have to see how the draft ends up shaking out. They have to go into the draft with a quarterback who can start for them day one just in case.

the draft doesn't fall their way. What do you think that ends up looking like? I have mentioned the name Sam Darnold and Jacoby Berset a lot. Yep. Someone like that. I did have a GM yesterday tell me in the wake of Carson Wentz being cut that he thinks the middle tier

quarterback market is just going to completely bottom out this offseason. I think so too. The teams are done paying $35 million for guys they think might be good. Now, Derek Carr is, I think, He's certainly at a different level than Carson Wentz. And, oh, by the way, Teddy Bridgewater, Baker Mayfield, and Sam Darnold.

I don't know. I think it would be more like those, someone like the first two guys I mentioned. Darnold, who actually played pretty well down the stretch for Steve Wilkes and Ben McAdoo. He played the best football of his career. And then Jacoby has the relationship with Reich, obviously. So somebody like that. Percette is the name I keep coming back to. I just think if you're looking at a one year, 10 million or two years, you can spread it out a little bit,

keep the cap number down when you don't have a lot of money. That sort of deal for somebody like that. Famously good dude in the locker room, I think we'll understand what the situation is if they draft somebody. I mean, all of those different things. So that's the name I keep coming back to. So other priorities outside of quarterback, if you're stacking up the positions right now, what does that look like to you? Edge rusher opposite Brian Burns.

It's kind of a bummer because they've spent some picks. there. I know. Like gross matos and they haven't been shy about pumping resources into that spot. He's been the big disappointment. A second round pick on him out of Penn State. And, you know, he may fit better in this three, four, where he just plays the five and, you know, just stuffs the run.

But vertical stretch receiver. I mean, I did a story for the start of this week, revisiting fitter's comments from last year at the combine. and he hit on a lot of things they ended up doing, principally the offensive line. So you had mentioned his earlier press conference. He kind of came right out and said it. Edge rusher, vertical stretch receiver,

playmaking tight end, and a ball hawk safety. They did not have an interception from a safety last year. Jeremy Chin, I think, needs to be up closer to the line of scrimmage. Xavier Woods didn't play very well. But those are four pretty big needs, in addition to quarterback. And now it becomes a question, okay, let's say you don't trade up for the quarterback. Let's say you roll with whoever's going to be your stopgap option.

Now you have all of those second and third round picks to fill those needs. This is a good year to need a tight end. You find a defensive back in that range. But if you trade for the quarterback, that quarterback has to carry a lot more of who you are, but that's the constant push in the pole that always exists. This team with like one more playmaker and the right young quarterback, whoever that happens to be, I can talk myself into.

to that offense with Frank Reich and that staff. And I don't know. I'm weirdly interested and excited about where the Panthers are right now in a way I didn't necessarily anticipate six months ago. It's funny too. Judging and just watching the fan reaction on Twitter, people, like, I've never seen this much excitement from a fan base over a coaching staff. Yes.

It's like, okay. It's a different era, right? Where with the exchange of information, I think the fans are very smart. They know who the assistants are. There's a way to do more research on this. Like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, people wouldn't know who Thomas Brown is. But now I just think that there's a different sort of environment and conversation around all that stuff where you can really build excitement

and enthusiasm in that way that you couldn't have done before. David Tapper needs to seize this moment. They have naming rights coming up on their stadium soon. They've had five playoff less seasons since he bought the team. from Jerry Richards in. I mean, and they've tried. Look, I mean,

every team's trying. But they got to, they have to get this right. Yeah. They have to get the quarterback right. They made, I think they let Matt Rule talk them into some things at the quarterback position, which I know that they had to do over, they would.

Fitter survives the purge. He gets his chance to put his stamp on it. You know, and he needs to do it. Or he's next down. Just think about in the sequencing of things that we were trying to sell the brand of the team. You have the naming rights. You're looking at Bank of America Stadium or what used to be Bank of America. And you have just the huge banner of Bryce Young sitting there or Will

Levis or whoever it is. That feels like the next logical step in all of this. That's right. That's right. I mean, with McCaffrey gone, I'm like, who are you putting on those bands? Frankie Louvo. Yeah. Which who I love, but that's kind of where we are right now. And they have real players. I mean, DJ Moore and Brian Burns and but those are guys that, not the guy. Yes. And I think that is, they're in such a position where that feels attainable. You know, when you have, again, it's almost good that you have this bottom-out season when you have all these decent players. They've found themselves in a really good spot all things considered based, again,

on where things were last Halloween and how bad it could have gone from there. And I think that Steve Wilkes deserved some credit for that, and the fact that they played hard down the stretch, like, there are just good feelings around this team that didn't have to be there when you consider what the lows of the mat rule. it was interesting because of course the catch 22 is they played themselves into a worst draft pick yes but it was something that locker room needed brian burns guys like that dj more they needed they know they learned to win a little bit down the stretch and it it cost them probably like a

top six type pick but here they are and that's why you make the christian micabra trade to give yourself a little bit of flexibility and i think that that requires some long-term planning and planning that deserves to be commended. Joe Persson, always great to chat with you, my friend. Good to see you. Likewise. Appreciate it. Hope to see you later in the week. Absolutely. All right, time now. Chat with our Jets writer here at the Athletic, Zach Rosenblatt. First time even on the show. This is exciting. Thank you for doing this. Thanks, man. All right. So let's start, let's do this, Kronoski. Let's start with the coaching staff tweaks that have happened over the last couple months because I think that they kind of shine a light on where this team is and the frustrations

that they have felt about their offensive output specifically here over the last couple of years. What do you think is ultimately the reason that they decided to move on from Michael Flore and say, you know what, maybe we need a different voice in this role? It's a complex question because the quarterback carries a lot of the blame for what happened. The quarterback carries a lot of blame for what happened. And also, they're not going to really change the offense that much with our new office coordinator. So I think the quarterback's a big part of it. I think, you know, you have to factor in ownership being frustrated with.

with the offense being as bad as it was, and that team being as close as they were to the playoffs for the offense to be as bad as it was. It was very, like, frustrating, I think, for a lot of people in the building. Kind of feels like a some head-hastor role sort of. Yeah, totally, yeah. I think that's part of it,

because, you know, Salah's very close with the Floor, the LeFloffle family. And I know it was really hard for him to make that decision. They didn't fire him technically. They did the whole, like, we let him pursue other opportunities kind of thing, which anybody could read through. And you might end up in the Rams. Like, LaFloor, I was never really.

about landing on his feet because where he comes from and all that stuff. But, yeah, ultimately, you know, when they were as close as they were better than they were supposed to be early last year. And so it wound up, like, hurting them with the way they ended the season because now all of a sudden they created this, like, playoff expectation. And, you know, they had all the pieces together, this great defense. They have Garrett Wilson on offense, Breeze Hall, all these things. And then it all, you know, at the end of fumbles.

And they wind up where they were supposed to, seven wins. Like, that's what everybody probably projected before the season. And so, yeah, heads had to roll, so they've completely changed the offensive staff. and yeah, that's kind of where they're at. What do you think the offensive staff that they've assembled says about who they want to be and maybe who they would like to pursue? Daniel Hackett's the offensive coordinator.

Todd Downing is the quarterback's coach. Keith Carter is the offensive line coach. He comes from Tennessee where Todd Downing was. What message do you think that grouping of coaches sense? That's a very interesting way to phrase the question. I think they want to get Aaron Rogers or Derek Carlson. ultimately. I think that's pretty obvious. I think those are their top two targets,

their most realistic ones. If they don't end up with them, I think they'll spin it like if they get Jimmy G, they'll spin it like that's who we wanted or something. Yeah, obviously. Yeah, he's the time all the long. But the interesting, I'm curious, because the impression I get is they really aren't changed that much of the offense, but I think Keith Carter and Todd Downing are going to have a bigger impact on what the offense looks like

than even Hackett, I think Will. I think Saler really wants to be like a run first team, and they build off the run. And, I mean, it's changes if you have Aaron Rogers in there. You may be building off Aaron Rogers. Yeah, so I think they're going to, the fact that they hire two Titans coaches, I know Sala was really, he really was excited about Keith Carter in particular. And the way he's going to kind of change the way they teach their offensive linemen and the way they approach that side of things. So yeah, I think they want to look like the 49ers offense still.

It might have like some different. They're trying to like simplify it because I know the big thing about the Shanahan offense is like very wordy. There's, you know, a million different ways to call like one route. I think they're trying to simplify it because that was one of the biggest problems Zach Wilson had was the complexity of. the offense and the receivers were often getting frustrated with. They call it like needlessly complicated, like, you know, if you talk to them away from the podium and stuff. And so I think they're trying to simplify it.

They're trying to mainstream this mainline this offense. And I still do think they want to be like a run heavy team and grind it out against teams kind of thing. All right. Let's get to quarterbacks. What about them? In a world where Aaron Rogers is available. Okay, let's play in that hypothetical.

What do you think is the ideal outcome at quarterback from the Jets? perspective. They want Aaron Rogers. Like, if he's available, like, he's their top target. I think that's why you haven't heard about them giving an offer to Derek Carr yet, because everybody in a waiting out the darkness. Yeah. As is every, the whole, he has the whole league by the balls right now, as he always does.

Just like he likes it. And so I think Derek Carr is probably, honestly, waiting to see what happens there, because, you know, if the Jets don't get Aaron Rogers, I think it probably helps Carr negotiations because then the Jets are like, okay, we really need you. If Derek Carr goes to the Jets, he's going to be a Hall Famer. It's big time stuff for Dyerickrard. I would love to be in one of those fucking meetings where you sit in like the big, beautiful conference room

with a huge wood table and they put the video up there and there's some crazy hype video. And I'm sure it's him, you know, with a gold jacket or something like that. Just what that cell looks like when you're even a moderately good quarterback in free agency. That was the whole thing about Derek Carr when this was all happening. I remember tweeting in December that it really does feel

like he's going to get released because I don't think the Raiders have any leverage in this situation. He has a no trade clause, the timing of when the guarantees kick in, it really does feel like he's going to be released. And so many people are like, absolutely not. Like they're going to trade him. It's like, okay, it sounds good. And the other part was, quarterbacks of Derek Carr's caliber, whatever caliber you think that are, don't typically hit free agency. It just doesn't happen very often. Carson Wentz got traded for multiple draft picks last off season. So when you are that sort of quarterback, even if you are the 12th best quarterback in the league, when you hit the market, there is a robust market for your services. I mean, think about all the stuff,

all the hubb of around Daniel Jones right now that he's asking for $45 million. Like, Derek Carr's accomplished a whole lot more than Daniel Jones has. Like, I don't know what people's opinions are of those two compared to each other, but they're around the same level if you're ranking the quarterbacks, probably. I think that Derek Carr has definitely accomplished more than Daniel Jones. Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. So yeah, I am fascinated to see what the contract looks like, too, because, you I think he was set to make something like 30 to 35 million. I imagine he's looking for that as a baseline for his next gig. So with that in mind, we had Dan Dugan on yesterday talk about the Daniel Jones situation.

We're talking to Colton about Jared Gough and kind of that archetype of quarterback, that guy who is the 12th to 16th best quarterback in the league who makes 30 to 40 million dollars a year. It typically isn't what you're after. That's not, if you could build it in an ideal world, that's not the type of guy you would chase just because it's difficult. The pathways to contention with that sort of quarterback are narrower than they are with either having a top five quarterback or having a guy on a really cheap deal. But not every team is operating from the same position. And I think the Jets are one of those rare teams when you're looking at the entire chessboard and what it looks like and what last

season was like, the urgency that Robert Salon and Joe Douglas are probably looking at. They're the sort of team where I can understand looking at the entire landscape of the position and saying, this is worth it. With the right quarterback, with the way that our defense is built, with some of the young talent that we have, we can be a playoff team. And even if you wouldn't do it this way

in an ideal set of circumstances, for us, this does make sense. And it should be said, part of the reason it does make so much sense for them is they failed so miserably to find the guy in the draft. Yes. That has to happen first.

You draft a guy second overall, and he has to be the most colossal bust maybe that we've seen in like a decade at the position for, them to be in this position where they're convincing themselves like we have to pay Derek Carr 40 million a year. Whereas, you know, when you drafted Zach Wilson two years ago, you didn't think you're going to be in this position, obviously. So it's something they, I mean, their jobs are on the line here. They need to get this right. Do you think that's true? Do you think that this is a playoffs or bus sort of situation?

They'll say that Woody, you know, has Woody Johnson did not give them a playoff mandate, but I don't think anybody in the building believes that. I think they know, especially with how close they were last year, they're pitching it that they're a quarterback away. You know, they have this great defense. They're going to, you know, try and build the offensive line back. up. I do think if we get at the end of the season, maybe, I don't know, maybe that's like not, it's not as simple as playoff from us. Maybe if they get nine wins and they just miss, they'll be okay, or they get 10 wins and they just miss, like, they'd be okay with that. But you need to have a better year than you did last year.

Do you have a sense of what the price tag for Rogers would look like trade-wise? Yeah, it's hard to get a read on that. It's such like an interesting thing because, like, the Packers kind of have leverage, but also don't like, but quarterbacks, like Carson Wences, as you just mentioned, he got a decent value for a guy that nobody in the league wanted. He's traded for a first round pick two years ago. Plus more. So I think I've been saying I think it's at least one first round pick and probably, you know, if not another first round pick,

like other like highly draft, like high draft picks or young players. Like I think it's going to take way more than people maybe realize. Looking at their cap right now, I'm wondering how you think they free up a little bit of wiggle room. They're essentially at the cap. They've got some expensive deals on the books. That's what I'm saying. And the quarterback thing, like you do that when you have a guy in a rookie deal

and now all of a sudden they don't have the quarterback and they don't have the money. And that's a great point. Because the way that they've built this thing, those free agent bills come do eventually when you build a lot of your team through free agency. $72 million combined right now for C.J. Mosley, DJ Reed, Lagan-Thompson, C.J. Ozama, Jordan White had five guys, $72 million. That's a lot. That is a lot of money. And those guys are stars either. Yes. But that's what you have to do when you're building your team that way. So how do you feel like they free up enough wiggle room for a quarterback or just to create enough flexibility period to build this thing in the off season? So Mosley's a fascinating one because he has like a $21 million cap hit for the next two years,

which obviously they can't carry that in. He's a solid lineback, but not a guy you can pay like that. So they either have to convince him to take a pay cut, do a restructure where you're just pushing more money down the road, or they have to get rid of him. And he's like a leader of the team, so that's hard. It's a tough one. I think they cut Corey Davis to save like $12 million from that.

Carl Lawson is the one I'm fascinated by because his contract restructured in a way they can get out of it now and save $15 million and no dead cap. But he's also like a solid defensive end at a premium position. He's not old. So they have some tough decisions they have to make, and that's kind of the problem you run into when you are spending all this money on guys and you don't have the quarterback.

You have to get rid of good players. And I think fans, you know, I hear the thing where everybody's like, salary cap's not real, and it kind of makes me mad sometimes because if it wasn't real, you wouldn't have to cut all these guys in order to save money.

Or restructure all these guys and push the money down the road. And the Saints are like paying the price now for all the times they pushed it down the road, and they were really bad last year because they couldn't build their roster. So they're in a really interesting spot. And I think Derek Carr is very appealing in a lot of ways to them

because you can get them now and then you can figure everything else out because the earliness of Carr is very unique too on top of him being available at all. The fact you can sign them in the next week or two it lets you set the table for what you need to do the rest of the off season, which I think is appealing to them. And I also think that because you can structure that contract however you want with Rogers right, you're locked into a certain number.

The Rogers thing, though, I believe they trade for him. It's only $16 million against the cap this year. You have to pay him like $60 million in cash up front. But yeah, it becomes a small cap hit this year. There's also the risk with Rogers but we didn't mention that. You don't know, like, are you getting any guarantees playing beyond this year? Like, and you're training all this stuff for him?

I think you'd have to, right? I think you'd have to have some assurances before making the trade that he was going to do that. But he can change his mind. He's going to change his mind week to week, it feels like. But with Carr even, let's say, this is all funny money. And that's why this idea of AAV as a way to kind of talk about these guys feel silly to me sometimes for the same reason that Derek Carr getting a $40 million a year extension last year felt silly. If you can tell a guy, we're going to pay you $40 million a year,

but year three of a three-year deal is a $58 million cap hit, and only the first two years are guaranteed. You can play with it. I think that's kind of the benefit of being able to shape the contract whoever you want. If you want to sign Derek Carter to a three-year deal and year one, the caput is $18 million and you give yourself a little bit of wiggle room, that's potentially on the table. The last kind of accounting thing I wanted to ask you,

Quinn Williams' extension, you think just no-brainer, top of, market, like right below Aaron Donald, because him and Jeffrey Simmons are both up for those right now. I have to assume that they're going to look at the DeForest Buckner deal and say, tack two million on to that and we'll be good to go. Yeah, I'm very interested to see how that negotiation goes. I think it, so Quinnon made it clear at his end of a season interview, and he's a guy that doesn't usually talk about contract stuff. He's like, I want it done by voluntary workouts or I'm going to hold out. And it sounds like he would hold out for mandatory too. And you'd, like you mentioned those guys, Dexter Lawrence is up for a new deal.

You know, Duran Payne just got the franchise tag. I think there's maybe another good free agent defensive tackle. So, Javon Hargrave is... Javon Hargrave. So you want to get... For the Jets, I think it makes sense to get it done ASAP. What is Quinn asking for? I imagine, you know, I think Aaron Donald's at, like, 32.

Yeah. And you're not going to go that high. And I think the second is, like, it's going to go up. But I think the second is, like, Leonard Williams at, like, 21. I think there's, you probably have that. I didn't think about that. His is kind of weird just because, positionally, there's arguments to be made about who he is.

My guess is Quinn is asking for something like 25 mil a year. And, you know, he's an absolute star. He was, I think, maybe the most dominant defensive tackle in the league this last year. And they need to pay him. He's, you know, he's a good locker room guy. I'm just very curious to see how it plays out. And if the Jets, you know, the negotiations with Jamal Adams way back when went very poorly, and they wound up trading him for a lot of value.

But I don't think they want that to happen again with Quinn and Williams. I think that if you, again, you can play with this however you want to, By the time the huge Quinn and William's contract kicks in, the time the huge money kicks in, there's a chance you can get out from under some of these free agents. And I think that's the nice pit. And the caps going up at that point, yeah. All right.

So, positional priorities outside of quarterback. There's other positions outside of quarterback? There are other positions outside of quarterback. We talk about them on the show. Where are you starting if you're kind of ranking the positional priorities for the Jets? Offensive line. That's my first one on my list. So glad we're on the same page here.

Yeah. So they're in a, they might have to completely revamp their off. There's so many, like, fascinating questions in this group. You know, the only... Do you think... Who is, like, if you're looking at it right now? I can tell you...

Who is definitely starting for them week one? I can tell you two players who are starting, and I can't tell you what a position one of the guys are going to play. I can tell you, Lake and Tomlinson, because they have to pay him. Yeah, it's coming off like a pretty bad year. 17 million against Cap the show. Yeah. And Elijah Verit Tucker coming off an injury

who can play any position on the line. So they can... So we got two. We got two guys, even if the positions are up for debate here. And so the rest of the group, you know, George Fant hitting free agency, he won't be back. Dwayne Brown, you don't know if he's going to retire or if they want to bring him back. He's 38 coming off shoulder surgery.

He's also making more money than I thought. Yeah, like $11 million. They needed him real bad last year, so we got some good money. It's always good when you're throwing money at random offensive. Not random, but when you're throwing money at offensive lines, because you don't have a solution. Yeah. You know, Mackay Beckton's like a wild card because that talent-wise,

he's the most talented guy they have, but, you know, he's played one game in the last two years and he has a problem staying healthy. So you can't like, you can't say, okay, we're going to plug Mackay in there. They had a guy last year, Max Mitchell, they drafted, who looked good. And then he had, like, because of their jets, he had, like, a blood clot condition that popped up randomly. And so he's a fourth-round pick. It's not like it's a no-brainer type thing. Yeah, exactly.

And then Connor McGovern, free agent at center. I don't know if they're going to bring him back. So they, at the very least, might need a new center and two new tackles. And they have a lot of money. So, especially what they're going to pay their quarterback, $30 million a year. They've got a lot of wiggle room. And that's kind of, the reason that I think this is an interesting conversation is that we do this all the time. They're a quarterback away. We do this all the time. And then you realize very quickly

how few teams are actually ever a quarterback away. And I think that the Jets are a good example of that. Because beyond the offensive line, let's go to defense. The Jets were fifth in defense to BAA. O'S. A lot of good young players on defense. We all love sauce. We all love Quinn and Williams. They've got like that Banshee-esque defensive line rotation that you get from the Niners. But is Carl Watson gone because of money. Quincy Williams is a free agent. Quincy Williams to me was such a tone setter for who that team was on that side of the ball last year. Do you lose him because you can't afford him? Do you have to cut Carl Lawson? Does the defensive line rotation get a little bit thinner? Do your coverage guys who had fantastic seasons last year?

Take a small step back because that tends to be a little bit volatile from year to year. DJ Reed was awesome last season. Is he going to be as good this year? Let's say you have the ninth best defense in the league. Let's say you have the 12th best defense in the league because you lose some of those guys. You can't figure out the offensive line. Does then Aaron Rogers or Derrick Carr solve all your problems to make you an 11-win team? Or are you kind of chasing your tail

in the way that happens with teams every once in a while? Yeah, and it's a great point. And I think I've even heard... Rankens is another one, by the way. Yeah, Rankin'Hill. So they have Quinn and Williams and the three defensive tackles that rotated next to them are all hitting free agencies. So they have a spot of defense tackle native, Phil. You know, Carl lost the question. They just drafted

Jermaine Johnson in the first round last year. You kind of flew into the radar because the rest of their class was like dominant. So what they do with Lawson is going to like kind of determine, you'll know what they feel about Germain, I think, like if they think he's ready to take on a full-time role. But that's like an unknown. So you have an unknown. Linebacker you mentioned, you know, C.J. Mosley is aging. You don't know if Quincy Williams is they're going to be able to afford him.

I think he's going to get more money than maybe people realize because as you mentioned, he's like a very unique, like athlete and tone setter. One of very big Quincy Williams fans on this show. Yeah, I know Nate Tyson is big. The safety spot was a problem area last year. So, yeah, they have a lot of holes to fill. And that's why, you know, I think they've told people, and I haven't heard this directly,

but I've seen other people report this. They have in their head that they can be Super Bowl contenders if they get Aaron Rogers or Derek Carr, not just. So, like, they're pushing the idea that, like, we're a quarterback away. But, you know, even on offense, you still need other receivers outside of Garrett Wilson. Well, how do you think that gets pieced together? Do you think Elijah Moore is just, like, penciled in as that guy? Or do you feel like they, in their minds,

they maybe need another playmaker somewhere in this entire equation? They do view Elijah Moore as like a part of the core. They think he has the talent. The problem was he didn't have a quarterback and they get him in the ball last year kind of thing. They do need another receiver, though. Because you have Garrett Wilson and you have him. They're probably going to cut Corey Davis.

Braxton Barry is whether he's back or not as a guy. We've all been on a Denzel mim's train. Denzel mims, yeah, he'll be, they like minx. They like memes, but like, yeah, I don't know if at this point. They've liked MIMs for three years and he doesn't play. So it's always interesting that they like him, but he can't see the field. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's a great point.

Yeah, so like you said, it's not a sense. as a quarterback. Like Joe Douglas needs to have a perfect off season. Especially if you get one of these two quarterbacks, and like we talked about, you don't have all this money to go and, you know, sign the best receiver, sign the best offensive faculty. So he's got to, he hit almost everything last year. He had a great free agency and an amazing draft class. And he kind of needs to do that again to fill out the roster. Otherwise they're not going to be good enough. And like, the AFC East is going to be a lot better, I think, top to bottom. You look at the Patriots and the Dolphins, I think they'll be better than they were last year.

AFC is a hard conference. It's not as easy. They should not be talking about the Super Bowl. They should not about making the playoffs, which they haven't done in 12 years, the longest drought in the league. Like, let's get to the playoffs first, and then we can think about the Super Bowl maybe. There's no reason to belabor this, because we all know what happened with Zach Wilson. But I remember so many preseason conversations last year where they seem to have this perfect offseason, where you look at the talent that they added in free agency, you look at what they did in the draft.

And you're sitting there on August 1st and saying, man, they put up, everything else is set up so well. If the quarterback takes a step, like, what can this team be? and when you remove that piece of the puzzle, this is what you're left with. It almost doesn't matter to a certain extent all the things you do right when that goes wrong. And you're left to pick up the pieces, and that's exactly where the Jets are right now.

It's funny. I was talking to somebody earlier on NFL network, late last night at the bar, I saw the Jets Browns game was on TV from week two. Why? It was pretty funny to me. But I was talking to somebody in line today about it, and they were saying how they're talking on the broadcast

about, They just need Joe Flacco to hold down the four until Zach Wilson gets back, and then they'll be ready to go. And they were winning games with Zach, and he just wasn't the reason. And yeah, so it's just perfect jets that, you know, they finally have like a legit good roster. Like, that wasn't like a flu guy.

I think they had a legit roster last year, this great young core of talent. And they just didn't have the quarterback still. Like they've just, they haven't had a good quarterback in a very long thing. They had the one good Fitzpatrick season. Listen, you're talking to me right now. I don't know. It's the life I'm very familiar with.

Hey, if Justin Fields is the Jets quarterback this last year, they're in the playoffs. That's a very good point. It can always be worse. I guess this is the lessons that we learned from this conversation. Zach, really appreciate the time. Great to have you on the show. We will definitely be doing it again sometime. Awesome, man.

Thank you. Thanks. All right. Time now to chat with our Ravens writer at the athletic. Mr. Jeff Saribak. Jeff, thanks for doing this, man. My pleasure, man. Thanks for having me.

When did you think that the Ravens would be worth including on a list like this? of the teams with the most interesting off-season. When in your mind did it become a question of whether or not Lamar Jackson would be the Raven starting quarterback at 2023? You know, when late summer, when they cut off negotiations and said, you know, we'll get at it, we'll get back at it next year, next off-season and try to get it done, I think you thought, okay, well, they've had a long time to do this.

What is going to be the, you know, the one or two months? between after the season ended and before they go to the combine like you know if they weren't able to do it before then how how are they going to be able to do it then um but even then i i think there was an attitude is look they'll figure it out they're a good organization they pay their own players lamar fits them perfectly um you know they've not you know all things they built their offense around lamar and all that stuff so they'll figure it out but then with how the season was going it just there just wasn't good vibes around Jackson and the Ravens this year. You know, he kind of felt it late in the year.

You know, it's kind of the same pattern two years in a row. Look, he was one of the MVP front runners through maybe the first third of the season. Then he hit kind of a stretch where they got in a little bit of a slump. He didn't play well. People around him didn't play well. Then he got injured. And it's just like the same thing. And the frustration in the building was palpable for the situation towards the end of the,

the end of the season. And, you know, I first, when you're in that and you're seeing what's going on, you're seeing the vibe in the building, I was like, you know what, I don't think this is a sure thing. He's their quarterback next year. You know, I still think if I'm a betting man, I'd say he was, but I think right now all things are being considered, you know, I think they'll be here. I think they'll be listening at least to what teams, how teams value them, what they may be able get in trade. You know, I think that decisions to be determined at this point. Do you think they were frustrated that he wasn't playing? I think so, yeah. Now, look, he was hurt.

This stuff is always tough to figure out. He was hurt, and I think they understood. I think the frustration was more at the situation than at him necessarily. Okay, that's an important distinction. Yeah, here you are a second straight year. You're trying to survive. You're trying to win key games down the stretch, and you're starting quarterback's not there. I mean, who wouldn't be frustrated with that situation? But, you know, sort of Lamar, he's different in a lot of ways. He's unique in how he handles things. We all know, we've talked about it in nauseam.

He doesn't have an agent. He has a very small inner circle. So you don't always hear his perspective. And he's not one of these guys that he's going to hang around the building 24-7. Like Lamar, when he kind of gets in his own world a little bit. And that's not a criticism. It's just how he is, how he handles things. So I don't think he was around the building a ton.

late in the season and that's just kind of how he approaches it. I think when he's not out there, he gets down and sometimes he doesn't want to be in the mix, right, you know, all the time where he's in the building and he's talking to coaches every day. That's sort of not his way. So, but yeah, I think there's certainly a frustration. I mean, look, they thought it would be a two, three week injury and he'd be good to go. He may not be 100% the rest of the way, but he'd be good enough to, you know, help them and their best option on the field, but it just never healed as quickly as they hoped and, you know, that's the way they got to the point where he missed the rest of the season. But certainly there was frustration with it. But I don't think there was anger at him,

frustration at him. It was more, geez, here we go again. We're trying to stay afloat here and win big football games with our starting quarterback. I always like you when I'm looking at the tea leaves. My thought is I'm just going to go with the thing that is within the box, right? So if they don't come to an agreement on a long-term extension, they'll just tag them. If they have to tag them twice, twice, they'll tag him twice because he's the sort of player that that's worth it. Like if you look at the guarantees and the timeline and everything else, like, okay, they'll keep him on the roster because they know he's their best chance to win. That was always what I defaulted to.

At the very least, that will be the solution. Now, it feels like that's far from a guarantee. So what do you think has to happen for him to be the starting quarterback for the Ravens next season? I think if there's going to be a contract, extension, there has to be compromise. You know, Steve Bishotty made this clear when he did an interview with a couple of us, the owner of meetings. Just because the Cleveland Browns did what they did with the Watson contract does not mean

I will. And that's not an organization the Ravens owner is going to follow. And he's just, they, he kind of dug his feet in the sand and they've been unwilling to move off that fully guaranteed contract. I mean, willing to make him like the second highest paid, given the second most guarantees. they just haven't been able to do the Deshaun Watson Plus. Do we have a sense of what those numbers look like and what he's turned down? A little bit, but I think a lot of it, they haven't said.

You know, DeCosta came right out and accused the NFLPA of leaking it, which is an interesting kind of approach. That's when you know things are going well, by the way. Things are really great when that's happening. But all, you know, and I know the guaranteed money is in the thing, and there's a difference between fully guaranteed and then total guaranteed and all that. but, you know, it sounds like they're willing to go, the APY and the 50 million range, which would have made him like the second highest paid, and then guaranteed, you know,

the 133 at front at signing, and then the total guarantees would have been more, and that would have placed them number two in guarantees too. And, you know, Stephen A. Smith all of a sudden saying, no, he wanted to fully, and he never asked for a fully guaranteed deal. Well, that's news to a lot of people in Baltimore. I could tell you that. So for that to happen, there has to be some compromise. The Ravens are probably going to have to come up.

He's going to have to get off that. And then the other thing is going to have to happen. If he's going to play the season under franchise tag, he's going to be out there with an opportunity to, you know, say he gets tagged and like, you know, I don't even think it's, and we could go into this a little bit, but I don't even think it's a definite that did he go to the exclusive? I think they, you know, they've talked about,

I'm not saying they're going to do this, but they've at least said non-exclusive, look, go shop, go out there and see what's... That to me is crazy. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly risky. Because if I'm Atlanta or if I'm one of these other, and I don't know if Atlanta likes them are. It's always, these are all hypotheticals. But if I'm one of these teams that doesn't have an off rampant at quarterback, two first-round picks is nothing to go get Lamar Jackson. Because if you're a team that kicks the can down the road around quarterback, if you're the Raiders, if you're the Falcons, if you're the Panthers, you're going to likely

going to have to trade a future first round pick to move up in next year's draft to get your guy anyway and you don't know if that guy's any good i know yeah absolutely so i think there's going to be a come you know i you know there's going to come a time where he's going to get an opportunity see what else is out there what teams are willing to pay him um obviously with him not having an agent he's going to be the one hearing this stuff directly which is another element to like how long could this take you know what i mean like lamar's version of even the mechanics of that yeah lamar's version of negotiating is not we're going to sit there hammer it out. He'll sit there and they'll talk to you and then he'll go back to his people and then he'll get back to that, you know, like, you know, and he's not somebody that's available 24-7 by phone either.

He marches to beat of his own drum. He's a hard guy to reach at times. So there's so many complications of it that make it just a fascinating story. It really is. But, you know, he's going to have to compromise if he's going to be there in an extension. They're probably going to have to go up a little on guarantees. It sounded like they were willing to guarantee about 80% of the deal. He wants more than that, obviously.

We'll see how high they'll go there. Is that just a principal thing at that point then? Like, why not just do a full hundred? Yeah, I mean, I guess you're looking at it as do you want to guarantee a fifth year on the deal given his, you know. I understand the hesitation. At a certain point, it feels like if you're willing to do 80% of it, like, is it really going to torpedo you to do the final year of the deal?

I don't know. That's why I'm not a GM of an NFL team. I also wonder on both sides. there's D. Marie Smith came right out and said it on that pivot Ryan Clark's podcast that we view him as the second guy to get that fully guaranteed deal. Lamar is using the NFLPA as a guide as to help him. There's no doubt they're involved in this. They're not involved in Justin Herbert. They're not involved in Joe Burrow and Jalen Hertz. They're involved in Lamar Jackson negotiations. So they want him to be that second non, you know, fully guaranteed guy.

And there's no doubt also. I don't think Bashati wants to be the second owner to give it. So I think there is some pressure on both sides. I can't imagine other NFL owners want this to become a trend. So I think that's at play too. It's a fascinating situation. This explains why they've been at kind of a contract stalemate for well over a year now. And the problem is, my first thought is, okay,

if you're worried about the guarantees into the fourth or fifth year, just do a shorter term deal? but then the flexibility you give up by doing that, you put yourself in a really tight spot team building. Yeah, no, absolutely. And look, could he play the season on the franchise tag? You know, $45 million if they do exclusive, like how are they going to build a team?

I mean, they need to completely build their receiving room. They need another cornerback opposite Marlon Humphrey. They probably need another, you know, starting guard. Like, where all these pieces come? Where's the money? Especially if it's not a long-term proposition. It's for one year. You know what's going to happen down the road.

There are some teams that I think would be willing to play the quarterback on the tag in that circumstance because it's about self-preservation. We have to make sure that we're getting everything we can out of this season. The Ravens don't operate like that. No, they do not. Eric Acosta doesn't need to operate like that. So it almost feels like where the franchise tag felt like an inevitable contingency if they couldn't come to an agreement, him playing on the tag now feels like kind of a

far-off proposition to me in this weird way. And you look at it in even a bigger picture, like, could you get away with it? He's been around for a while, but you're Todd Munkin. You're trying to install a darn offense. This is going to be a new offense. How the heck are you going to teach a new offense when your starting quarterback is not on the field? I may not be there until September or wherever, you know? I mean, you never know what Lamar's going to do.

He could show up for the first day OTAs. You just don't know. He's just a different cat. But there's a very strong possibility if he's on the tag. You do not see him. And how do you design an offense? How do you, you know, and I know you hear from them, they'd like to get a better contingency plan at the quarterback spot, you know, maybe a Mayfield type.

I mean, there's a lot of these veteran quarterbacks on the marketplace. There are plenty of one-year stopgown options available right now. If he's on the tag, it's going to be tough to pay another quarterback $68 million a year. 60 million tied up in your quarterback. It was funny when we started recording. I was looking at just all of the financials. It was like, oh, the ratings have like $25 million in cab space. And it's until you remember they don't have a quarterback in the contract.

So the Munkin thing, I think, is fascinating. Because in my opinion, you can look at it two different ways. Them moving on from Greg Roman is them detaching themselves from a certain offensive identity and a certain Lamar-centric offensive plan that has defined who they are since he got there. By going to Manken, you can spin it two ways, in my opinion. One, it is a way to break free of... of who we've been and move on with Lamar to the next stage of what we want to be offensively.

Or it is removing ourselves from a Lamar-centric plan to the point that you open other avenues and quarterback potentially. Which one does it say to you? I think it says the keeping options open one that we could still go, we could still go either way. The cowardice third option. We're not going to paint ourselves. We don't exactly know how this is going to play out.

we're going to get a coordinator that's shown he can be adaptable to his personnel. He's been at offenses where they've ran the hell out of the ball. He's been at offenses with the whole air raid where they throw the ball at Ton, Tampa. So this is a way where they feel like they have a guy who could adapt to whoever they're going to get at quarterback, and they can keep their options open as long as possible. So let's play out the hypothetical where Lamar is on the team on an extension. So in this circumstance, for Schitts and Giggles here, let's say it's a 20. $25 million cap hit this year.

Okay, yeah. Which brings them right up to it. Yeah, yeah. What happens then? How do they find pieces? Who gets restructured? Like, what does that timeline look like to? That's a great question.

I mean, you have some guys. Chuck Clark, you know, it's going to be three or four million of savings. They drafted Kyle Hamilton. That's a quarter in the couch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Callas Campbell wants to play again. He, I think he has like a nine plus cap hit. 9.4 is save seven if you move on from him.

Yeah, he's not going to be back under. that cap hit. 37 years old, Callais Campbell. 37. I'm 35 and my back coach is just looking at what he's going through right now. I mean, he wants that 100th sack. I think he finished the half sack side. He and I were talking about that five years ago is how badly he wanted to get there

because he's a different kind of guy where he is very cognizant of what it would take for him to get to the Hall of Fame for the benchmarks that would require. That matters to him. In a way, he's been very open about that. He's told me about it. he really wants that. So he's just kind of wired differently than some guys that are a little bit later in their careers. Yeah, so you got Clark. They'll do something with Clay's Campbell's contract. I could see them giving Kevin Zitler an extension. He's still playing at a pretty high level, wants to play, loves it there. They could lower his cap number. Then you've got a couple of these young guys that have gotten expensive. Like, Devin Duverne, it seems weird. He's in the last year of his rookie contract for third round pick. But he's like 4.4 million or something. A lot of playtime stuff. Yeah, a lot of playtime stuff. He's made two pro bowl.

And he's a number. By the way, if they ever ask you earlier in your career if you're a mid-round pick, if you want to play special teams to return kicks, the answer is yes, because you're going to hit some escalators if you do that well. But it's scary. Like if you eliminate, I'm not saying he's all that. He's probably a number three receiver, number four receiver. But that's a lot of money to pay for number three or four receiver.

They always find returners. They'll be okay. Gus Edwards at five plus to be a number two back just can't happen. I mean, they're going to have to either cut him down. So there's five or six guys, and then you could do the usual restructuring of the Ronnie Stanley's, the Marlon Humphreys, the Mark Andrews. So they have space to, you know, get some, they have space to fit some guys in. Even if it's just Chuck Clark, Gus Edwards, and Devondu, right? Just for argument's sake.

That gets you to 36 before Lamar and one or two more little tiny flexibility things. You can be okay. Yeah, yeah. They'll be okay there, but that's with him on a reasonable number for this year. And I think that's what you have to do, right? You have to keep it as low as you can and just understand that over the next couple of years, the cap is going to go up, you're going to be able to have this off ramp and that off ramp. So if that happens, what pieces do you think are non-negotiable?

Like, they have to be on the roster either through free agency or through the draft for us to be the team we want to be in 2023. I think, you know, in every offseason, like every team, every guy you've probably talked to, there's little things that you could use at certain depth spots. Okay, forget that. That's every team. The things the Ravens have to have beyond the quarterback, you need to redo the receiver room. I think Rashad Bateman is a good player. He just needs to stay healthy. I think he's part of the solution, but they need two receivers.

I think you can get one in the draft, either on, you know, they don't have the second round pick because of Roquam. But you can either get one at 22 or you can get one in the third round. But I think you need to find a way to get a veteran receiver. and I mean is Brandon Cook's an option is DeAndre Hopkins I mean money is going to make it hard you know Robert Woods is just

they need to find a way to get one of these guys now is he going to be the prototypical in his prime number one receiver no I mean the Ravens fans have been coveting that piece for so long I just don't know who that guy's out there I mean but I think a combination of a solid veteran receiver plus drafting one early

combine it with you know with Bateman and then obviously you got all the tight end that they have. That's okay. That's a decent look of group of targets. The other thing they have to have. The half-dos I consider is another starting cornerback. I don't know if Marcus Peters will be back. I think if he's back, it's going to be at their price. They love Marcus Peters. I don't think Marcus is going to have a huge, huge market just because the volatility there. Not everybody could deal with him. Let's face it, I like Marcus Peters, but he's not for everybody. Yeah, absolutely. You know, that's why he's been on.

on, you know, all his interceptions and his Pro Bowls. That's why he's, you know, he's been on three or four teams already. But they need to- This is a larger conversation, but I honestly think that volatility is worth betting on. Because when you see that, especially at corner and free agency, when you kind of go after those guys who are kind of tarnished assets because one down year for one reason or another, James Bradbury being the best recent example, right?

If you can go out and you can find James Bradbury for one year and $7 million because he had one down year and you're betting on not only the volatility of Marcus Peter's the player, but volatility of cornerback play in general that kind of goes up and down, I would take a run at Marcus Peters if I was a team that needed a corner. Because I think you could get him for fairly cheap. Yeah, so I think there's a chance to Ravens bring him back still. I mean, I just don't know what he is. You know, he's 30 now, and he's coming off a season where he never looked healthy.

And is a year removed from the major knee surgery? Is he going to be back closer to what he was? Maybe, but he just didn't have, you know, he was a step slower last year because of the knee. So they need another corner too. So it's corner and it's wide receiver and it's some sort of certainty at the quarterback position. I think when you're looking at what they have to do this offseason, those are the three spots. How do people in Baltimore feel about where this team is right now? I know that's kind of a weird question.

But on this show, and I think in a certain subsection of like football Twitter, there's this understanding that the Ravens are just a well-run organization that are consistently going to be relevant and consistently make the right bets that put them in a good spot. But now you're kind of wading into potentially what feels like the third or fourth era of the John Harbaugh's tenure in Baltimore if you go to a different quarterback now, you're kind of turning the page again. How much enthusiasm is there about this regime's ability to see that step through based on how the last one went?

I think the first part about it is I think fans are tired of this Lamar Drum. Yeah. I think last year, he's a hugely popular player. Let me be clear. But I think there's fans heading the other way suddenly on this. Like, they're tired of it. They can't get into this offseason. They can't get into free agency in the draft because this Lamar thing's hanging over his head. But I think there's also been people last couple years who feel like they could maybe, they need to shake things up that Steve Bishotti has gotten maybe a little too complacent. You know, I know. Eric DeCosta's well-regarded. I think most Raven fans like him really feel like he's doing a good job. But there's some that, you know, don't. I think some of it stems from the Lamar issue still being an issue. You know, they've missed a couple. The failure.

The draft record has not been great. Yeah. They haven't hit any home runs in the last three or four years. The failure and the failure to kind of solidify this receiver group, even though, you know, for three-year span, they pick six receivers more than anybody in football. And Marquise Brown's not there anymore. You know, Thailand Wallis and Jim. Deems Prochet weren't that guy. Duverne is kind of more a returner. Bateman hasn't been able to stay on the field.

So, yeah, I think there's some concern there. And I guess unrest would be probably the best way to... That feels like a good word to use. Yeah. And with the Lamar thing, hovering overhead, I mean, this past year, man, I mean, this has become... You know, I hate to judge it by Twitter and you know, like, everybody's angry on Twitter, right? But there's a lot of volatility there with the fans. Like, you know, like there's sometimes where you'd think, you know, they're rooting for the Browns given, like this organization stinks. They don't know what they're doing. And, you know, they need a big season. You know, they need some stability at quarterback and they need to figure this out.

But they need to start winning some playoff games. You know, they've won what, one playoff game? It's kind of how what I mean is just that they're always going to be a team that is on the verge of the playoffs or makes the playoffs. And obviously, 2019 was a different thing where you feel like you're the team to beat. I remember going to Baltimore during the by week that year. I had like three or four stories that I was working on because in my mind, it's like, oh, well, they'll beat Tennessee, and I'll just run them next week. And I had to write like three weeks worth of work on fire because that's not how it went.

But they were that team that year. But now that feels far away. It does. Right? I mean, it just, financially because of what you were going to have to pay the quarterback. And with the flames of whatever that season kind of dwindling and you lose that warmth, it just feels like things have gotten very cold. And you look at Bengals have passed them. It's a great point.

You know, and the chiefs are still the chiefs. It was always the chiefs they're chasing. Justin Herbert's in the A.S. Josh Allen. In 2019, the idea that Josh Allen would be a better long-term answer to quarterback than Lamar Jackson seemed insane. Yeah. But now that's kind of where we found ourselves. Yeah, this is a – and you feel like, you know, they're – this is a big off-season for them,

but you feel like they're hamstrung in a lot of ways. They're hamstrung at the quarterback situation, and then they only have five draft picks. So it's not, you know, like they have a way of getting other draft picks, but, you know, that's going to be difficult to do. The cap space is an issue when you take into account the quarterback. It's, I don't envy Eric DeCosta. He is an underrated, you know, I know everyone's focused on Lamar, but he's got an underrated tough job, you know, and they need to start producing some playoff wins too because it does feel like long ago when they're sort of the toast of the NFL and look like they were going to be at the top or near the top, at least the AFC for a long time.

It feels like this is the type of team that, with so many other teams, I would just default to this idea of, well, they'll figure it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have to figure it out. But I think that they have the resolve, the balls, the security, and kind of the unemotional, detached approach to this every once in a while that would potentially allow them to do this, where other teams would never have the goal.

Yeah. And as someone who roots for the content at this point in that stage of my career, I kind of hope it happens. Yeah. Like, I think he would be fascinating if they trade him and then have to move into this next era and some other teams willing to take it on and kind of become that Lamar-centric team. Like, just the butterfly effect of what could go down here over the next two weeks,

it'd be a lot to talk about a lot. Yeah, like, everywhere I go, I've been here for a couple days now. It's like, so what's going to happen in Lamar? Everybody's asking me. and a lot of people are like there's no way they trade him right and I'm like I wouldn't be so sure I mean but look I've been covering this team since 2011 I've covered one head coach and two starting quarterbacks and there couldn't have been a more seamless transition away from a long-term franchise quarterback than flaco to Lamar I mean that couldn't have been more obvious at the time so yeah yeah yeah exactly the baton handing off that is happening in that organization is very real so I I was due for some turbulence here. You know, we were due for...

Turbulance is good, though, sometimes. Turbulance is good for subs and it's good for page views. So I was kind of due for an offseason like this, I think. You deserve it. Jeff's Reebuck, thank you very much, my friend. Always good to catch up with you. All right, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Have a great week. All right, guys. That's all we got today. Thank you so much to Joe. Thank you so much to Jeff. Thank you to Zach. If you have not listened to episode three, between the lines to Sean Reed's excellent new narrative

podcast series on the NFL. This is when talking about the coaching experience among black coaches in the NFL. Really, really encourage you guys to check that out. The other two episodes are also available on the Athletic Football Show feed. We will be back tomorrow with three more writers from the athletic. Football GM is going to be back next week. Just a heads up to you guys. So do not be looking for that.

Mike and Randy will be with you next week. Mike is the king of the combine. So he's got a lot going on here in Indianapolis. But Mike and Randy will be back a week from now. We'll be back with three more writers, and then Nate will be joining me on Friday. For a little special episode that I'm not going to spoil. We're going to talk about it a little bit tomorrow, but really looking forward to that one. If you have not, please go rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice.

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