The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The most polarizing players in the 2025 NFL Draft

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

Everyone likes Travis Hunter and Abdul Carter. There's a widespread consensus that Cam Ward deserves to be the top quarterback on the board. After that, though, opinions vary more so than in most drafts in recent memory. Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dane Brugler dig into the players driving that disagreement on this episode of The Athletic Football Show, breaking down the most polarizing players in the 2025 NFL Draft.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dane BruglerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dane on Bluesky: @danebrugler.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, it is the most polarizing players in the 2025 NFL draft. This is a list curated by Dane Brugler, one of our guests today, along with Derek Klesson, just guys who the opinions on them is kind of all over the place. We've got guys like Will Howard where Danes talk to some teams that have a second round grade on him, the quarterback from Ohio State. There are other teams that have a sixth round grade on him.

There's another player, Sabian Williams, from TCU. We talked about that some teams don't even have him rated as a wide receiver in this draft. He's kind of a more amorphous position than that. So what do you do with a player like that? We do deep on seven players that have a bunch of different opinions about them. And it's hard to square exactly where the league and the draft community comes down on these guys. Really enjoyed this conversation with Derek and Dane, just trying to parse what we're talking about with these prospects specifically. There's some edge rushers that would have fallen into this conversation,

but we're going to hit an entire show on the defensive lineman and edge rushers tomorrow with our buddy Fran Duffy from PHY. So guys like Mikel Williams, Jalen Walker, we're going to save the polarizing discussions for those guys for tomorrow. One quick note before we get into this show. Actually, two quick notes. First of all, it is Wednesday morning. It is April 9th. The Beast is Live.

It is available. Please go check it out. We chat with Dana a little bit about that at the top of the show. but just wanted to remind you guys as often as we can. Also, days one and two of the NFL draft, Thursday and Friday, April 24th and 25th. We will be coming to you guys live from Chicago. We've done the live draft show each of the last four years. If you look at the first iteration of that live draft show in 2021, it looks a lot different

than the one we did in Detroit last year. We're going to keep it rolling this year, very excited about the space that we have in Chicago, very excited about the group of people who are going to be. coming to you guys on those two nights. Night one, me, Derek Dane, and the legend, Bruce Feldman here to provide so much context on all these college guys. Nobody covers the college game quite like Bruce. Very, very excited to have him in the mix. We're going to have plenty of beat writers, other people providing perspective over those two nights. Encourage you guys to make a note, bookmark that. Go follow, subscribe to the YouTube channel now. If you're watching this on YouTube,

please subscribe to the channel. That's where that show will be living on the first. two nights of the draft. Pumped to be bringing that to you guys again. For now, though, let's get to our conversation about the most polarizing players in the 2025 class with Dane Bruegler and Derek Klesson. Today is a day for maybe not disagreement, but for a little bit of attention, potentially.

Today we're digging into the most polarizing players or some of the most polarizing players in the 2025 draft class here to help me do that. It is my co-host at the Athletic Football Show. Derek Klesson. Derek, how you doing? I'm very excited for this one. This is like this is what draft season is all about, right? These handful of players that everybody can watch the same three, four games and then come

away with thinking, this guy's a first round pick or this guy's a fourth round pick. And so I think ultimately every draft discussion comes down to a show like this. So distilling it into one show is I'm excited. Also joining us today, it is our draft expert at the athletic celebrating a big day for him. It's Beestay Day, Dane. How you doing today? It feels good. It's a long time coming.

It's a lot. And this year was definitely a different process because if you haven't checked out the beast yet, it looks a little bit different this year. We have literally a micro site dedicated to the beast that every, all that information is now a micro site. It's really easy to navigate, really easy to sort and go position by position. It's really cool. All the resources we've put behind this thing. If you still want the PDF, you can do that, download it that way. But yeah, a different process.

year still all the great information. There's over 2,600 players this year with testing information for all of them. It's just, it's, it's a little much. But if you're a draft fan at all, I promise you're not going to be disappointed by it. So I appreciate everyone checking it out. As you put that to bed, what is your big top line takeaway about this draft class as you think about it holistically? You know, I try not to be, try not to beat up this class too much. You know, but every class has its own identity.

And this class is, and, you know, I think we've, and we've touched on it as we've gone position by position. And, you know, like this class is just a little bit different than most in terms of, especially at the top with the first round guys. And so I love the depth of this draft, second round, third round, especially at certain positions, running backs. You know, we touched on those guys already. We'll touch on the past catchers. but you know what it's maybe not a great year to have a pick between five and 11 or you know like relative to most years and we've talked about that before but I think you know when I have to do my final top 100 board for the beast it's like man I feel good about one two three four and then it's just like all right well somebody's got to go five somebody's got to go six and you know in most years those guys wouldn't be up there but in this class it is and so it's just it's a it's a really unique draft class and honestly that's going to make it fun. I was just texting with, actually with Ian Rappaport about this because we were talking

about where these quarterbacks are going to go and how just crazy it is with what he's hearing, with what I've heard, like the quarterbacks and how unique of a class that is is really going to help shake things up even more so than what we initially thought. So it's the ultimate reality show and it's going to be fun on draft weekend and that's why got to make sure you have the beast by your side to, you know, make sure you you're navigating it all. Last year, the big moments and the really headline-grabbing moments happened in the first hour, first 90 minutes of the draft.

It was awesome if we were watching in the top 10. This year, it feels like some of our splashy moments may come in the back half of the first round. When we have a guy going in the 20s, maybe we didn't expect. Maybe somebody trades back into the first round. Dana, I actually like that because that's when maybe we're getting a little bit sleepy as the night goes on. And so the fact that there might be some.

bombshells lingering as we get to 1030 11 p.m. I actually like that version of the draft as much as I liked last year's. I really, I think the whole first round, because if the Giants, if the Browns and Giants pass on Shador, then it's starting at four all the way to the end of the first round. It's Shadour watch. You know, where the Saints at 9, would the Saints maybe make that move? Okay, if he gets past the Saints, do we see a team like the Steelers move up? Or they stay pick at 21, would they take him?

and then we get to a spot where do we see the Browns or Giants trade back in for, you know, like you said, one of these quarterbacks, could it be Tyler Shuck, could it be Jackson Dart? You know, if the over under on quarterbacks is two and a half, probably taking the over. And that's going to make for some really interesting scenarios with just how these quarterbacks come off the board late in that round one. Derek's reaction there is fascinating because it reminds me a little bit of 2022, where we all kept saying this, where it's like, is there really only going to be one quarterback drafted

in the first round? Really, is there only going to be one? And no one really believed it. We all assumed there's got to be somebody we're not thinking about. And then there was only one. So that's going to be the question. One in the top 73 picks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that year was fascinating for multiple reasons. The fact that all those teams that passed

on quarterback in the first round waited until the third round. And I think part of it, and Dan, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember talking to teams that drafted quarterbacks that year in the third round. And they said one of the reasons we waited is because if you wait a little bit, it's easier to slow play that guy. Like if we had drafted him with the 50th pick, it changes the expectations of when that guy is supposed to play.

So we just thought if we waited until the third round, then it doesn't really matter. If he's a backup, if we eventually put him in the second half of the year, you can kind of do whatever you want with him from a development standpoint. I wonder if that creeps into thinking this year where teams don't want to take a guy with the 60th pick in the draft because then there's an assumption that maybe that guy is your future starter. There are just so many different layers to why these decisions are going to be made and that's going to make it a fascinating weekend. It really will. And especially with a player like Jalen Milrow from Alabama who put it out there over the weekend.

He accepted his invite to the draft, which is... What do you make of that? I don't know, man. I was shocked. And I look, I confirmed it with a source at the NFL and I confirmed it with a source of the NFL and I confirmed it with his reps. So I like it's not smoke. Like I,

you know, like I was able to confirm it with multiple people that are in the know. Um, so, you know, he, he is slated to be there. And I don't think he's going in the first, but I do think somewhere in that second round,

there's going to be a team. And I think the Steelers make the most sense, but they don't have a second round pick. And so, you know, the Raiders have shown a lot of interest. Would they really make that move as a, uh,

an eventual bridge to, uh, you know, it feels like they have too many needs on that roster to do that on the day two of this draft. But yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see how it plays out. And yeah, you think about that 2022 class with Malik Willis was at the draft that year. Matt Corral was at the draft that year. Both those guys didn't go until the third. And, you know, even a guy like Desmond Ritter, he's not even on a team right now.

So, yeah, this is just, it's going to be interesting to see in real time as we're doing our show Thursday night. and then Friday night, it's going to be a lot of fun to track these quarterbacks and see when do they come off the board. The Browns at 33 are so interesting. A lot of different ways they could go. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't draft a quarterback in this draft. If they look at that Kenny Pickett acquisition as saying, look, that was our drafting a quarterback this year. And we're going to acquire Kurt Cousins and Kirk Cousins, Kenny Pickett.

That's what we're going with. I don't think that's a, that'd be a huge shock. But yeah. it's crazy. Kenny Pickett being that guy in a class where we're talking about this class like the Kenny Pickett class is it's like the extra cherry on top

for that being pretty funny. That's what I was laughing. I was not laughing at you, Dana. I was laughing at Derek's reaction to the idea that Kenny Pickett may be the Brown's low cost young quarterback dice roll in this off season. So there are going to be a lot of things that we're keeping track of over the next couple weeks or so.

And obviously we'll have plenty of shows in the lead up to our live draft show heading into that week. single year. We've, you know, done something about the biggest questions we have heading into the draft. I mean, you could make an argument that that show this year might be more rife with questions than it has been in any of the years that we've done this. So a lot of fun stuff coming in the next couple of weeks. This is a unique group of players we're about to talk about in a unique draft class. These are the guys that we feel or you feel in are some of the most polarizing players in this entire group where opinions on them are kind of all over the place. We've got seven-ish guys

that we're going to talk about today. There are a couple edge rushers that you wanted to include. We're doing a deep dive on the edge class a little bit later this week, so we didn't really want to step on that quite as much. We may talk about those guys a little bit at the end of the show, but really we're talking about seven guys here that we wanted to dig into. The first player you mentioned, Dane, and I paid attention to this, like how you ordered these guys and who was first on your list,

because I'm assuming this is the first guy that came to mind when I gave you this little homework assignment. You had Harold Fan and the tight end from Bowling Green. as the first guy you wanted to talk about, why in your mind is Harold Fanon one of the most polarizing players in this draft? Such a unique profile. He's one of the youngest players in the draft.

He's 20 years old, doesn't turn 21 until well into July, his first training camp, he'll celebrate his 21st birthday. This is a guy that growing up, and he grew up in my neck of the woods, Northeast Ohio, he was a Canton kid. He in high school at Canton McKinley, he was a, he played receiving. A little bit of receiver, but for the most part, he was a safety.

That's what he did. And he didn't have a ton of offers coming out. Credit to Bowling Green, they had a vision for him and said, hey, we want you to come here and we're going to transition you to tight end. And, you know, when you think about that Scott Leffler, that scheme he runs, he likes to use multiple tight ends. And this is also why I think in my seven round mock drafts coming out, Eagles in the third round. for Fanon makes sense with Leffler now a quarterback coach in Philly. But I think when you look at that offense, there's multiple tight ends. And Fanon is kind of that move tight end where they line up up all over the formation,

backfield, wide, slot, wing. And they try to get the ball as much as you can. And he, you don't see guy tight ends with production like this, 117 catches who are 1,500 yards. double-digit touchdown catches. And so the production's there against Matt competition, but you go back and you watch him against Penn State. You watch him against Texas A&M.

He had over 100 yards receiving on both those games. He played at a high level. And he tested pretty well too. But when you watch him, it's just like, okay, he's a little bit undersized. I don't know the best way, like the best way I can describe him as an athlete is he's just a little awkward. He's not coordinated. He's kind of like duck footed. So his feet are kind of all over the place.

And so it's not really sharp. But he plays straight line explosive and he catches everything. And so it's all right. Those two things, I can do something with that. But it's just a very unique profile that he's got plenty of doubters out there. And I mean, I think a lot of people in the fantasy community were calling him like, you know, first round pick. And he was never that. it was always, in my opinion, it was always, okay, could he get into the top 100?

And I think the way he played against Penn State, against A&M, that helped me get comfortable with putting him, like sneaking him in the top 100. But there are plenty of other people that like him more than that. And some people that don't like him at all. So he's just a really interesting and unique type of player. What are your thoughts on Fan and Derek? We haven't talked about this. I don't know if you like him or not.

He's a type of prospect I typically wouldn't enjoy, but kind of because he's one of the youngest players in the draft. He's formerly converted from safety. So I honestly think between his age and his like conversion, there's probably a chance that he can add a little bit more muscle and a little bit more weight to his frame. The blocking stuff is a roller coaster right now. But again, he's a very young and fresh player to the position. I think what's most fascinating to me about him is that he is one of these move tight ends. But he's not as like straight line tear away. He doesn't have the breakaway speed that you would expect of a player like that. Like, He's not an overwhelming athlete.

He tested fine, but at 2.30, he is not an overwhelming athlete. He's explosive within like a 10-yard box. But like when I give him the ball, do I expect him to run away from anybody? Not necessarily. Like if you're going to be one of these move tight ends, like Sam LaPorter, for example, ran a 4-5-9. Pretty good. Harold Fandon ran just over a 4-7, which is like not bad by any means.

But when you're thinking about these move tight ends, it's probably not as fast as you would like. He'd more to me is like. if things work out, and this player's a little bit taller and lankier, you kind of want him to be like an Isaiah likely, which to Dane's point, in the first round, I don't know if I take a player like that, but in the third round,

that's a pretty interesting proposition. He's a fascinating athlete. When you watch him move around, there is that straight line explosiveness. When he's running in a straight line, I think that 10-yard box is a great way of framing it, Derek. I think it's the first play of the Penn State game. He's just up the scene for like 30 yards.

on the first play that he's on the field. And it's beautiful. And that the thing that where it shows up the most to me, Dane, just this very unique athletic profile that he has, it's actually when he's blocking, but it's when he has to change direction. Right. If you, when he's blocking,

and I think it was the second play of the game, it's they're running duo or some sort of gap scheme concept and he's double teaming with the tackle on Abdul Carter. And they get good movement. And I'm like, okay, all right, Mr. 230 receiving tight end. Like, that's actually pretty good. The moment he, he has to come off of a block or change direction.

And this shows up a lot in past blocking situations. He can't really change direction. Like it's, I've never really seen a player with his specific set of movement skills and limitations before. It makes him fascinating. And you know what's even, sorry,

go ahead. Weirder to me is like, so he is awkward in that way, right? And like Dane said, he's kind of duck footed. But weirdly enough, his catch to run transition is beautiful.

Like he is so. smooth. He's great after the catch. It makes no sense. How is he such a weird mover overall? But that that catch to run transition is so it just looks easy for him. I don't understand. That's why he's such a weird athlete. It just doesn't make sense. And even in his routes where like there, his limbs are all over the place.

He's, he looks rigid. But that, okay, in the three cone, he had under seven seconds in the three cone. Like three tight ends in this draft are under seven seconds in the three cone. And that is, that shows change a direction. That shows the, the short area agility and he was able to test really well in that area. So it's, it is a really interesting profile that I think I've, like I did not, I made sure keep an open mind to him the entire process because I never felt like you watch him on film

during the season and then, okay, during the All-Stars and then the Combine. Like not at one point was I like, all right, yeah, I definitely think he's this type of guy. It's like keep an open mind through the entire process and see where we're at. I think somewhere on day two, a team's going to kind of roll the dice a little bit and see what they have with him. Just yeah, a unique player who's young can come in. I do agree with you. I think he's going to get better as a blocker, but certainly not his forte right now. I do love how he catches everything. I mean, he had three drops all year. And so he's a guy that will go out there. He will, he can high point. He can catch it away from his frame comfortably. And he does have a little.

little bit after the catch where he'll throw out a stiff arm. You know, on that on the Texas A&M tape, he is making guys miss. And, you know, that run after catch is an important part of what he does and what makes him productive. So the run balance, it's just, it looks very different than I think what you expect him to look like and really what we see a lot of tight ends in the NFL look like. So you have to keep an open mind to him. Dan, I'm going to present to you a very weird theory that I have.

and it actually aligns with the three cone time. I think he's actually very good at changing direction when he's already moving. When he's already moving, it's fine. Like when he gets a little bit of a buildup speed and he's trying to put a move on, there is a couple of plays in the Penn State game specifically where he's getting going a little bit

and either it's at the top of the route or he's gaining ground on his safety in space and he's having to put a move on a safety a little bit further down the field. And he looks very smooth doing that. But when he has to change direction from a lot, full stop, that's where it actually becomes an issue. And so that's how I would bucket it. When he's already moving, he moves really well and changes direction well. But when he has to

change direction from a full stop, it just becomes an issue. And I don't think I've ever made that sort of assessment or observation about any player I've ever watched play football. It's really unique. And that really, it can complicate a route tree, you know, like when you're looking at it through that lens, right? And so it's just, it makes him really unique and really than I think most tight ends that you look that we've we've looked at. And I think Isaiah likely I think is a good, good comp in terms of style in terms of fit, different ways you can use him. I think that above all, it's like, okay, can you get open? Can you catch the football? Can you give me a little bit after the catch? He can do all three of those things,

even if it looks a little bit different. So I think, you know, a lot of teams are going to be like, you know, it's, it comes in a different package. But we feel good about the results. And so somewhere on day two, I think it makes sense. I always try to pay attention to how often an offense is trying to build through the tight end. Like what percentage of the passing game belongs to the tight end, I think can be a signal for how impressive that guy is. Sam LaPort is a great example where Sam Laporte didn't have these raw stats. But if you look at the total numbers, I think he accounted for like 33% of Iowa's passing game production, his last game in college. And with Fanon, I mean, they're building the

passing game through him. The total stats show you that, but all the different ways they're trying to get him the ball. They tried to have him throw a touchdown pass in the Penn State game. Like, this guy is the offense. The number that jumped out to me when I was looking at some of the stats, he averaged 3.77 yards per route run for PFF this year. For context, Malik Neighbors was at 3.64 last year. Yeah, that's crazy. I got a per route basis. That's the type of production we're talking about. It is a weird. weird, weird overall profile. I'm very glad that we started with him.

It's strange. It's unique. And like I said, I think he's a good example of keeping an open mind to a player that maybe the first time you watch is very, maybe not aesthetically pleasing. It's like maybe like Derek, like you said,

this is usually not the type of guy that I like. But, you know, the more you kind of keep it open mind to it and give him his due and you see the way he was used and you see why he was used the way he was and why he was the focal point. I mean, Bowling Green football has never had a consensus All-American before until Harold Fatted.

So this guy, production, there's enough talent there that you feel like, all right, I think I know how this could work. And it makes it interesting. I think, you know, Tyler Warren, Colston Lovell and those are the first round tight ends.

I think Mason Taylor, he finished 33 on my top 100. He's right there, in my opinion, about getting into the first round. Elijah Royo from Miami is in that top 50 range. And then it becomes, all right, who's the next guy? Is it Terrence Ferguson from Oregon? Is it Gunner Helm from Texas?

Or will it be Fanon from Bowling Green? I think all those guys are in that day two mix. Where he lands will be so interesting to watch because I'm very curious about which team has a vision for him and what that vision ultimately looks like based on the stuff that we're talking about here. Let's get to our next guy, Will Howard, quarterback from Ohio State. He was 84 on your pre-combine Big Board day. Did he land in your top 100 on your final big board in the beast? He did not.

And part of that was he struggled so bad at the combine throwing the football. And you try not to put too much on that. But sometimes it's hard to ignore. And his balls were, they're floating. They were just the timing was off. Accuracy was off. He's just, he is a tough guy to get a real firm idea of what he's going to be. Some teams have comped him to like a Jake Locker type.

And I think that makes sense. He's big. He's physical. He's a good athlete. There's a lot of things about Will Howard. I like. I mean, thinking about the Penn State game,

Penn State was the team he wanted to play for. So going to play in at Penn State like that in front of the whiteout. And then he throws a pick six like in the right away. Like I don't know about you. I would have melted in that situation. Like that's tough to come back from. And but he did. I mean, he led Ohio State down to a touchdown the next drive and they ultimately win that game.

So I give him a lot of credit. And then obviously led Ohio State to a national championship, not all on him. Certainly it was just an all-star team for the Buckeyes, but he was still driving that bus. And so he deserves credit for that. But there are certain things about his just watching him that I'm like, all right, I don't know if that's necessarily going to work at the next level as a starter. I think that he has enough where you can see him being a bad. backup and staying on a roster.

But if he gets on the field in the NFL, can he do enough to, you know, hold on to a job or show that, hey, I should be a starter somewhere. I have trouble seeing that. What were your impressions of Howard when you watched him, Derek? So I watched Howard a little bit last year before he transferred. And when he was at Kansas State and I was like, you know what in the sixth round? I mean, somebody who's that big, who moves around a decent amount, has a really big arm. once or twice a game makes it like pretty impressive NFL throw.

I was like, all right, you know, late day three, you could take a chance on that. Then he transfers to Ohio State, gets to play with the Monstars. And he, to me, was largely the same player. It's just that when you're surrounding a guy who was like a, you know, late day three pick as a college quarterback and then give him a bunch of all Americans around him, yeah, that's good enough to go win a national championship. Like much worse quarterbacks have won national championships. And then I think he also kind of benefits from the fact that the quarterback class

around him is not very good. So if he, just from his play this year, elevated from like sixth round pick to late fourth round pick. But then you look at the rest of the class and people are like, well, I don't want to take anybody else. That maybe elevates him to a third round pick, his people's mind. So to me, he's the same player. I watched at Kansas State who was like a sixth rounder.

It's just that all the circumstantial stuff has kind of bumped him up the board. Just for context. And he only started seven games in 2022. So this is part of it. But combined in 2022 and 2023, he had about 4,200 yards. passing in 39 touchdowns. Last year at Ohio State, he had 4,000 yards passing in 35 touchdowns. So his last, his one year at Ohio State was essentially his final two years at Kansas

State combined. So the reason he lands on a list like this for you, Dane, is what? Like, what do you think are the high highs and the potential low lows that are pulling the overall viewpoint on Will Howard in two different directions? Well, I think the reason I thought he belonged on this list is just the differing opinions around the league about where, what kind of great he deserves. I've heard anywhere from second round

to six round. And a lot of in between. So it's just there's a wide ranging possibilities for him about where he's ultimately going to go. A lot of teams feel differently. Some teams, there are some that have mentioned second round. Now, at least one of those teams, I don't think they're drafting a

quarterback. So, you know, it's a moot point. But it's a, there's a, They say whatever they want. Yeah, exactly. But there's at least that love. You know, like, why say that if you don't actually feel that way? So there's at least that love out there for a guy like this. And look, you understand why.

Like he, yeah, he had all that talent around him, but he still had to lead this team. And, you know, like the Michigan game wasn't great. But, you know, you look at what he did with the talent around him. He maximized it in a lot of ways. I mean, Ibuka is going to be in that first round discussion for a reason. Jeremiah Smith were talking about as, one of the best receivers we've seen at the college level for a reason. You know, he,

Will Howard was number two in the FBS this year in completions of 50 plus yards. He had 80 or he had eight of them. If you take away screens, it's not Shador Sanders who led the FBS in completion percentage. It was Will Howard. So there's a lot about his profile and what he did this past year that you're like, okay, like I get it with him. I think the mechanics and the delivery,

I think partly because he's so thick of a guy. like it just looks a little robotic. He looks a little tight. And so the arm is, I think, more good than great. Sometimes it looks like he's pushing it instead of driving it. You know, there's certain things about his profile that I think are just going to be a little easier to expose at the next level compared to what he faced in college. So that's second to sixth round stretch, Derek. What to you is the second round trait and what to you is the sixth round trait if you're trying to boil down how you saw Howard?

The second round stuff to me is mostly just like ideas where it's like, oh, he's, he's big and he looks like an NFL quarterback. And he's not a great athlete, but he can move around a little bit. You know, I think he ran for over 200 yards this year. He can move around a little bit, especially towards the line runs for him. Yeah, I was a little bit surprised by that turning it on. I was like, okay. All right. I guess we're doing this.

In the red zone, he's got, because he's got the size and the power, he's almost more like, you know, kind of like when Dak Prescott came out of college where he wasn't a burner, but he was a very good within 10 yards type of. type of runner. And then his arm strength, again, it's not elite, but it's pretty good. And he's going to be able to make every NFL throw. Some of the throws he did make, like, especially towards the sideline where I thought some of his best throws, again, he would sail some of those. But he was able to fit some pretty impressive throws on the sideline. So I think it's just like if you tried to do what is stock standard, what does a good NFL

pocket passer look like? He has a lot of the traits in theory. And so you can sell yourself with a little bit better coaching that you could get it out of him. But to me, he's just, a lot of it boils down to for me the sixth round stuff, he is just not accurate enough. And I know he completed a lot of passes, but when I watch him trying to actually fit some of the more difficult throws on a down-to-down basis, especially over the middle of the field, the consistency for me is just not there. What you mentioned about the red zone, I think it makes a lot of sense. Like he, in the numbers back it up. This year in the red zone,

26 total touchdowns, one interception, one sack. So he was really productive. when the field shranked. And really Ohio State as a whole, they had 31 goal to go drives this year, and they scored on 29 of them. And Will Howard was a big part of that. The threat of what he could do with his legs, obviously the running backs they had in that backfield.

But, you know, Howard was an extension of that run game, no doubt. They don't win. And that's the whole reason they moved on from Kyle McCourt. You know, Kyle McCourt is a good quarterback who will be drafted. It's probably 50-50 who will be drafted first in this, in this class between those two. guys. Ohio State felt like they needed a more mobile type of quarterback. That's why they moved on

from him and obviously it worked out. They won a national title and, you know, McCord had a really good season at Syracuse and he will be drafted here in a couple weeks. So, you know, it's, it's something that worked out in the end for both. But yeah, he's, I think it also helps that, you know, the character stuff, the intangibles are off the charts. I mean, Cooper, I remember talking to Cooper Beebebe last year's Combine who just said he loved him the death. So he was just, an amazing type of guy. Buka raves about him. So I think that certainly helps.

And you know, you always wonder when you have a guy like Chip Kelly, who was the offense coordinator in Columbus last year, now he's offensive coordinator with the Raiders. How it's always fascinating. I think it's more fun to talk about than at actually coming to fruition.

Because we have no idea. You have no idea if he liked him or not. There's a chance he thought he was an anvil around his ankle the entire year or he could absolutely love the guy. And you know, you don't know, okay, is the GM really going to take that way? You know, is he going to care that the offensive coordinator loves the, you know, like it, it might not be a situation that works out. But it does. It is interesting specifically with Ohio State just because they have so many guys, you know, especially with, you know, those running backs.

We could see the Raiders draft in the second round. But Will Howard, if he's still there and say the fourth and they don't, the Raiders don't go Millrow or any type of quarterback in the first three rounds, would that be a potential fit to backup there in Vegas and potentially more down the line? As you were talking, I literally had the Raiders draft picks pulled up to see where they were just to go over this exact conversation. We talked about this a little bit when we were discussing Jackson Dart how one of my takeaways from watching Jackson Dart is manly and Kiffin is good at his job. One of my takeaways from watching Will Howard was Ohio State has a lot of good players. that was the first takeaway.

The second takeaway was, I'm excited to see what the Chip Kelly offense looks like with the Raiders because he's doing a lot of stuff that some of it is fun and crazy, but other stuff is just little wrinkles. Like, oh, that makes sense. Ooh, that's nice. That makes things a little bit easier. So I'm pumped about that.

And so the Raiders, Will Howard connection there, I think does make a lot of sense to at least consider. And it's interesting because, again, I think you can be a backup in this league. Can he be more? Maybe a few years as a backup in, you know, a team's ready to give him that chance. But he's part of that, you know, if we're going to say the first five

quarterbacks this year drafted are going to be obviously Ward, Darts, Chador, whatever order, Shuck and Milro, that next five guys, it'll be interesting. Who is then, who's drafted first among those next five between Dylan Gabriel, Will Howard, Kyle McCord, Quinn Newers? I think there's a lot of differing opinions about the order those guys should be drafted. The Cooper Bibi point is an interesting one because as we're evaluating quarterback intangibles in the process here, with all these guys transferring the way that they have, one, you have a larger pool of players who have been close to these guys. So you have a wider swath of opinions about what was he like, da, da, da, da, da.

And you also have kind of an intangible measurement with a guy dropped in for one season to a new environment. How does his new team take to him? How does the coaching staff take to him? It might complicate things more than streamline them. Like it might actually be a bad thing because there's so many different inputs. But it's just one other expression of this new world we've kind of arrived in with the draft that we didn't ever really have to think about 10 years ago. And it's not easy to do that, right? It's not easy to drop into a situation, especially in Columbus where it's basically a pro team.

And, you know, you have to. And it's funny because actually the leader of that team was Seth McLaughlin, who the center, who was also a transfer came in from Alabama. And then when he tore his Achilles in November, that's when like Will Howard was always kind of. of like a leader a part of it. But when McLaughlin went down, Howard really ascended and became the voice of that team and helped them, you know, cross the finish line. So yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic that a couple other guys on the list will talk about today, another or more more transfers that kind of complicate things.

We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to get to a few more guys that have opinions about them that are kind of all over the place. Let's get to our next one here. I'm betting. my mortgage that Derek hates this guy that we're about to talk about right now. I'm betting my mortgage that he hates this guy. It's Isaiah Bonn, the wide receiver from Texas. Dane, he was 94 on your pre-combined big board.

Where did he land on your final big board? He made the cut. I think he was right around there. Let me see here. Yeah, he was 88. He's 83 on the consensus board. So you're in line with most of the conventional wisdom right now as it currently stands. Yeah.

And before the draft, or before the, the season he was top 50 it was like all right bond he's transferring from alabama to texas think about sark in that offense queen ewers and it's going to be bond the number one receiver in that offense uh let's go cook and you see talent like it's not hard to watch his tape and see and not see the talent but it's just it's discombobulated it's um it's very inconsistent in a lot of ways and so i i think somewhere in in in this draft especially it's not, I don't know, I'll be eager to see how you guys feel. I don't think it's a necessarily strong draft on day two in terms of wide receivers. You know, and so if we're talking late third, early fourth, because it's really the kind of

grade I gave the late third, early fourth type of grade. At that point, it's like, all right, we'll roll the dice on this guy. As long as the character checks out and we're focusing just on the field and we feel like he's semi-coachable, like, okay, you don't find guys that run four, three very often that have Because if you put together as highlights, you've put together as top 10 plays from this year, you're probably calling him a first round pick. It's just the problem is there's just no consistency in that. And it just really gives you cause for pause at that point. So yeah, Derek, I'll be eager to hear what you think of Bond.

Was I right or wrong, Derek? Someone is going to convince themselves that this is Tyree Kill. It won't be me. He is, Robert is correct. This is just like not my style. I actually think if he's supposed to go in like the late third fourth, that's actually probably fine. Because in terms of like raw explosive speed,

it is pretty crazy. But his rot running is all over the place. Are you surprised it didn't run better, Dane? I mean, this was supposed to be a guy who was like one of the burners in this draft. And he ran a 4-4-1. Yeah, a little bit. You know, I think that because at the pro day,

he ran a 4-37. So, you know, a little bit of a bump. But yeah, he was, and it didn't help matters. That at the combine, he said he's going to run a 4-2. Like don't do that. Like don't. Oh, that's right. Don't put expectations out there when clearly you're not going to.

But this guy is used to being the fastest player anytime he's entered a room. He was literally in the USA track and field junior Olympics. And he started when he was like eight years old nationally ranked. So, you know, he grew up in the Atlanta suburbs and he was kind of like a legend growing up in the track scene. So I think he's just used to being the fastest guy. And now he's in a pool of a lot of fast. guys and it maybe didn't stand out as much, but he still, speed's not

an issue for him, even if it wasn't quite as fast as we thought. But again, yeah, it's, there are some teams that believe he is a top five receiver in this draft. Now it's probably more like five, not one or two or three, but

when talking to teams about the top five receivers in this draft, Isaiah Bond's name has come up. How would you even start building that case, Derek? Is it just pure explosiveness? if it is just pure expostomness, how does that manifest in talking yourself into this guy as a top five receiver in the draft? I mean, you're trying to sell yourself that he could be one of the best take the top off guys in the league, where at minimum, you're getting something akin to like what Ted Ginn was for those Panthers teams,

where it's like, okay, the hands inconsistency is a little bit of an issue. He's not really giving us a whole lot of contested catch stuff or even anything outside of the numbers, but his raw ability on post routes and seam routes and other deep overs and stuff to just give vertical stretch into the offense and every now and then have such incredible speed that he can just tear away from a guy and we can get one chunk play a game to him. It's like almost in the same way that we talked about James and Williams or like what he's kind of become. That's what you're hoping for.

That's what the case is. I just think there are so many other holes in his game that I would be a little bit scared of taking that chance. he's almost a gadget player right like you have to yeah you know the way you use him you just really have to have a defined plan um you know a lot of screens a lot of gadgets a lot of um i mean i do think like you watch him on um you know blaze outs or daggers like he can create some serious separation off that plant foot like he has that dynamic ability um especially down in the red zone if you get him one-on-one in the red zone he can he can create space for your quarterback um

But consistency with the full route tree, it's catching the football. I don't think it's very natural for him. I think it's like he didn't have a ton of drops, but I didn't see consistency or like I didn't see confidence in his hands with the way that he attacks the ball. Even though he didn't have a ton of drops. So the stat sheet looks okay. But on tape, I wasn't necessarily blown away by the way his catch point skills. So and then like you said, he was unreliable.

through catch or through contact, you know, contested catches aren't going to help. Deep ball, like you would think this is a guy that down the field on those deep balls. And maybe this is partly a Quinn Ewer's issue too. But I thought he struggled just adjusting to that ball when it was downfield. He had 14 targets this year of 20 plus yards, caught only two of them. And again, part of that I think is there's a quarterback issue there too.

But it's still, you would expect more from that from a guy like this has that type of feed. Just you mentioned the James William's thing, Derek, and I was looking at the stats while you guys were talking. And obviously this isn't the end all,

but just for context. Isaiah Bond this year had 34 catches for 540 yards in his first season transferring to a new program with a high-octane offense. And Jameson Williams' first season transferring to a high-octane offense

in his third year as a college player, he had 79 catches for 1,572 yards, and 15 touchdown. So sometimes a player is an idea, and sometimes that idea it comes to fruition, and I think closing that gap is very important in this process. And Williams, to me too, and this is why Williams went as high as he did, and I don't think Bond will. Williams was a much more put-together route runner coming out of college. Bond is like,

you're just kind of hoping and praying that his explosiveness is going to check out, at least with Williams, even though he still kind of struggles with taking contact and certain other stuff and maybe making contested catches, his ability to just separate from people every now and that is pretty awesome whereas Bond kind of need to hide him kind of need to use some of this cheap motion stuff which is great if you're the dolphins and you're as good as jalen wattle or tyrie kill but if we're having to do that for like a fourth round quality player i just don't know if the juice is worth to squeeze most of the time he didn't play he wasn't a return man either so it's not like you're adding that value to a player like this uh he didn't play special teams he really doesn't

have a ton of return experience and so that that's part of the equation as well especially when you're, it's not just where you put him in the draft in terms of a ranking, but when you stack him with other guys that are in that similar range, you know, Tori Horton from Colorado State, a Kyle Williams for Washington State, like that, that's what will help separate. And, you know, he was a top 30, a 30 visit guy for a lot of teams. And I think that, like, this is a good chance to talk about those 30 visits because I think some fans are under the, like, if, okay, if a team, invites a player into a 30 visit.

It's like, well, obviously they like, they like him. No, obviously there's interest in him. It doesn't mean they like him. There's been like some of the best. They want to know more about him. Because they can't figure him out. Exactly. Like in a lot of cases, like Tyler Warren isn't going on 10, 30 visits because teams know what he is.

He's clean. You know, there's no really lingering questions. But with a player like this, he's going on the marathon tour because the question marks do exist and some of it is, you know, just character related, just understanding who he is as a person and how much is he going to work at this? And I am not saying this is the case for him, but I've heard of so many past examples of guys going on 30 visits and as soon as he leaves, teams cross him off the list. So I would just caution people like, yeah, if you see a player on a 30 visit, that shows interest. But that, for all we know, that player could be off the board for that team as

soon as a player leaves the building. Let's stick in the state of Texas and stick with wide receivers. The next guy you had on your list here was Savian Williams from TCU. He was not on your pre-combine top 100. Is he still off of your top 100 as you turn the B-sta? Yeah, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I mean, I like him.

And he's another guy that's, you kind of like the idea of him because of just, you know, the pure dimensions that he brings for an athlete like that. I mean, he was at the combine 6037-22. So 6-4 over 220 pounds. The speed was okay. He was never really a burner, but he's just a really good athlete, a really impressive athlete. And it's just I want to see him be a more consistent athlete as a receiver and not just

as a playmaker who you have to manufacture touches for. And that's kind of the hang up for me with Save Van Williams. And he's a guy, he's a fifth-year guy. So he's been in college a while. He was a quarterback growing up. And so he made that transition to receiver at TCU. And he had OK production, his first, or really as a sophomore and junior. And then going into a senior year, they really changed the offense all around.

So it was, okay, how, you know, it's the idea of him is like a Corderole Patterson. And it's, okay, that's fine. That's great. Are you drafting Corderole Patterson in the third round? Like, I don't think so. And so there's a lot of people that believe he's a top 100 player in this draft. and I just couldn't get there because, again, I think it's

the type of this weapon always sounds better in theory than functionality. When has this really worked out, Derek? It hasn't because the biggest example I come back to, and this was early on when I started doing this, was Lavisca Chanel coming out of Colorado,

where it was like, oh, he's kind of a receiver, oh, sometimes he's a running back, oh, sometimes he's the Wildcat guy. Oh, wow, they're putting him a H-back. That's really cool. And then you actually try to think about how is he going to make like a above average impact at any one of these positions in the NFL? And it was hard to make the case for it.

And that's a little bit how I feel about Saving-on Williams. I do think his vision as a runner is actually fairly impressive. Like when they were doing some of the Wildcat stuff, he's an explosive strider, even though I don't think his long speed is that great. But like his first couple buildup is pretty good when he's getting to the edge. He's a powerful guy. It's just you're not going to make him a real running back in the NFL. And then as a receiver, he probably is more.

of a gadget guy than anything, like a Leviska-Schannall, or he almost too reminded me of, like, if you gave J.D. McKissick, like a Mario mushroom, where he was a little bit of, like, kind of a receiver, kind of a running back. Like, he's something like that, which again, in, like, the sixth round, if you want to take a chance on that, totally cool. But for a top 100, I'm like, I have a pretty good vision for how this guy might be a starter for me down the line. It's hard to find that vision with Savian Williams. I'm maybe forgetting somebody, Dane, but it's really hard for me to land on somebody where we were having this conversation about that guy before the draft, and it did work out in that way.

I think Leviska-Chanald is a really good example of that, where we weren't exactly sure how it was going to go. And there's just so few examples of that guy turning into, I think starter is a good way to frame it, Derek, where he's like, this is one of your best three receivers. This is one of your best three receivers in a good offense. It just doesn't happen as often as we want to, even if the idea of these guys can be intriguing. That's it.

And 72.3% of his targets this year. came within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. So it's like, okay, there's so many question marks about you as a full-time receiver. And that's why I know several teams, well, at least three, that have him on the board as a running back slash Joker. They don't view him as a receiver because that's not how he was used at TCU. He hasn't shown that could be a strength to what he does on the football field. So it just creates a lot of more question marks than I'm willing to bet on for a guy that we're, you know, even in the third round,

I'd still rather bet on someone that I know can play the wide receiver position than the idea of what a fun, you know, type of player this could be in your offense. I agree on day three, yeah, the conversation changes a little bit where maybe there's a point where you,

if your offensive coordinator's on board, you roll the dice on a, on a talent like this, I just, I couldn't do it in a top 100. What's the highest opinion that you've heard about him? If that's one under the spectrum or their teams that don't even have them on the board as a receiver, what's the furthest you've heard somebody go the other direction?

Top 75, top 60, I think is kind of like, you know, like I went through an exercise with a team like two weeks ago where we kind of, we stacked our receivers and kind of traded notes on those. And I noticed Savion wasn't on there. And I said, oh, you don't like the TCU kid. And he mentioned, oh, yeah, we've got them in this other bucket. and it's this running back slash Joker bucket. And he said, yeah, we think he's probably going to go in the top 75. You know, I think we've got them just after that, probably in that 75 to 100 range.

But we think he might be gone at that point. Like, there's definitely a love for him because of, you know, he looks the part. Like, he looks like an explosive athlete. And he is an explosive athlete. But in terms of the functionality of playing the receiver position, it's just not there on tape. And so, you know, and even when he is asked to run downfield routes, I mean, he's giving indicators to the DB is what he's doing. A lot of times he's pushing off late.

And so you like the physicality, but it's not subtle enough. And so I didn't see a ton of separation. I do think he can, he catches the ball well. Like I think on fades, that's where he could really be more than just a manufactured touch guy. Like if we're talking what he can do on fade balls and he can high point in traffic. And so I think it's there is a little, you know, that's the. optimism, I think you're clinging to, is what he can do on those types of routes. But for the most part, it just hasn't shown the consistency as a down-to-down receiver that ideally

you want that early. All right. We're going to talk about a few more guys here. But first, let's take one more quick break. We're going to hit two more guys here. There are a few edge players, Dan, that you actually were going to throw on this list. We're going to do an entire show on the defensive lineman tomorrow with our buddy Fran Duffy from PH-O-Y.

You and Fran are all over the place on the defensive. Lyman. Like I can't remember a bigger gaps between the consensus and where Fran has some of these guys. And so there's going to be a lot of polarization on that show already. So a couple of these guys, Jalen Walker, McCall Williams, we're going to save for that conversation tomorrow. But there are two more first round quality players that you wanted to talk about here, Dane. The first one, Tyler Booker, guard from Alabama. He is currently 31 on the consensus board. He was 18 on your pre-combine big board. it's obviously been a little bit of an adventure for him in the process. Where did you land on him on your final big board?

I think he's 24. So, I mean, he's right there in the top 25 mix. He's such a good player that I couldn't drop him too far, even though the testing in terms of him as an athlete is just, it's below average. And that can be tough to get past at times. But you watch the film and it's like, all right, I know what he can do. he can uh because ideally what you want your guard to do is uh protect the depth of the pocket he can do

that in the run game he can move people you want guys you want mallers he can do that so it's like all right i maybe if i'm a strict outside zone team like i'm not going to be looking at booker necessarily in the top 25 or maybe at all just because maybe he's not a fit for the movement that i want. But I think if you're not and you maybe you run multiple schemes and you're just, you're balanced with the way that you operate your offense, it, you know, it's part of the conversation for some teams is, okay, he's not a very good athlete, but the tape is really good. The person, you love the person, the character, the leader he brings. So it's can you look past the below average testing and get on board with everything else?

Some teams have, other teams haven't. And I think it's interesting too when you, like you just do a monster. draft in the first round. A lot, sometimes, you know, guards, a lot of guards don't go in the first round anyways. And then you also factor in, you know, kind of the not for everybody scheme fit with him. Could we see him fall out of the first round altogether? I mean, I think that's at least a possibility, which to me kind of crazy because the film says he belongs in the first round, but it's, it's created a lot of conversations with teams.

It's a fascinating conversation to have. I had Ben Solek on yesterday, and we did the next iteration. of on the clock where we went through the process of picking between three guys for all of these teams. And you have that stretch in the middle of the draft where I think from 13 to 18, most of those teams need an interior offensive lineman. Right. So you have the dolphins need one. The Colts you could argue need one.

You have the Cardinals in that mix. You have the Bengals in that mix. You have the Seahawks in that mix. And so the Seahawks, Bengals run right there at 1718, I think is kind of an interesting little exercise to play through Dane because for Cincinnati, multiple gun, the last guy who I remember this happening with, where he was a well-regarded prospect, tested like absolute garbage, fell in the draft,

and then ended up becoming a good player, happened to be Orlando Brown Jr., who is the left tackle for the Cincinnati Bengals. So you have this team that is willing to take guys who are maybe lesser athletes, but have a lot of size cultivating mass, because that's how their run game works. And then you have Seattle,

who is now going to, one of the more outside zone heavy schemes in the entire NFL, and they're picking back to back, potentially with Booker on the board. So even that range of the draft feels like there's a ton to parse through for how he fits those teams and how they're going to value him. When the Bengals, they obviously need defense. So I don't think anybody would see as, or anybody would be surprised if they went defensive line or lineback or just went defense with that first pick.

And then, yeah, I don't, I just don't know that Booker's going to be a fit with what Seattle wants to be. I think it's more likely they would have Gray Zabel, the North Dakota State offensive linemen tackle converted to the interior, probably have him higher graded on their board because of how he fits what they want to be on offense. And so, no, I think you're right. That is a fascinating stretch. And then, okay, if he gets past there, even into the 20s, there's, I don't think not a lot of, okay, yeah, he's definitely going there type of landing spots, even though I don't, I think it'd be crazy for him to fall out of the top 30. And what's funny, though, is at the back end of the first round, like, to me, when I look at it, those are the teams that, in theory, make sense for his skill set.

It's teams like the Rams. It's teams like the Bills where they're running a lot of duo, a lot of pulling stuff. You could even throw Washington interior. And you could argue they maybe could use help along the interior if they wanted it. Like, those are the teams that make the most sense for him, but maybe won't be picking guards at that point or maybe he'll already be off the board to one of these other teams. Booker's a fascinating prospect for me because on the surface he's a player I actually want to love he's big, he's really strong, he's really smart

when they throw like twists and stuff at him and his vision in the run game is really good in terms of where he needs to be going and all that for a young player is super impressive his feet are just really, really slow and I worry that that's going to catch up to him a little bit in the NFL and you can survive without it, right? like Osiris Torrance has been a perfectly fine guard for the bills having the same issue.

It's just again, you kind of need to land in a spot exactly like that where you're going to be, your weaknesses will be hidden because it's just the way that the offense is structured. His 10-yard split was 1-9-5. That's tough. There's a generous way to put it. I love, I love doing this with Dane because Dane is such a performance. And Dane is such a guy who really cares about the work and cares about doing it the right way. That is the meanest framing you will ever hear from Dane Bruegler in a public space ever.

Is a pause, a sigh, and that's tough. That's tough. That's especially when, yeah, the other other guards in this class are one-sevens and like he's a 195. That is tough. And yeah, it's he's the intelligence he brings, the toughness. I mean, he had the quote of the combine when he said, it's legal assault out there. I want to make guys not love football anymore.

He has been true football since sixth grade, since grade school. Everything about his character and his upbringing and all that is awesome. It's just, yeah, he's a very average athlete for what a lot of teams are going to be looking for. And how that plays out on draft night is just fascinating. You're looking at the entire first round, though. I think you could make a really serious argument that almost, every single team from 13 through like 28, you could talk yourself into them drafting a guard.

Like Atlanta's probably not in that mix. I would throw Atlanta out of there. But you go through it. Miami, obviously. Indianapolis, yes. Arizona, yes. Cincinnati, Seattle. The buck's probably not, right? They brought back Bredison. They have Coney Mawks. That's when you throw out. Denver probably not. Pittsburgh, probably not. 22, the Chargers. I think you could still make an argument they need a guard. If They're going to move Zion Johnson to center. They have three center options now with Tyler James, Zion Johnson, Bradley Bozeman. So there's a chance they keep Zion at guard.

So maybe that's not one of them. The Packers, if they want to move Jordan Morgan to left tackle, would have a need at one of their guard spots. Minnesota, probably not a scheme fit for them. Houston, though, now moving to the Nick Cayley offense, think about the types of guards the Rams have tried to employ over the last few years. Houston needs one. Baltimore has a needed guard. The Lions may have a needed guard.

Graham Glasgow is very little guaranteed money left after this year, even if they like mahogany. You mentioned Washington, Derek. Buffalo probably solid. But what about the chiefs? Chiefs need a guard? I mean, they got, they're throwing. That's what they want to do. Like, when their run game was really good two years ago, it was a lot of this like straight downhill pulling stuff, some duo. So if he's there 32, I would like that actually. Or 31. It was a theme as we did team needs and we were just going through team by team, how many teams still needed interior offensive line help. And as I look at the back half of the draft, I think that's another indication that our. lot of teams, if not a glaring hole at that spot, you could make an argument that they could

probably justify somebody at that range of the draft. After seeing this now, I'm convincing myself that he's going to be a Raven for this reason. One, they love Alabama guys. They still do. But the other thing is they are the team that most takes the guy who he might be falling for X, Y, and Z. But we were like, yeah, his film was incredible. We'll just take him. That's exactly what they did with Hamilton and Linderbom. It worked out great. And so if they were tried to do that again with Booker, I would not be surprised whatsoever. And obviously they had to piece together that left guard spot last year. McCarrie eventually gets it after Vorhees gets hurt,

but now McCarrie's gone. You know, that team doesn't have necessarily as much into your offensive line depth as they've had in years past when they're consistently spending mid-round picks on them. And then, again, you talk about character, the way he plays day and everything else. Like the lion's just dropping him into that equation and saying,

like, would anybody be surprised by that? So that range of the draft with him specifically and the potential fits, that's intriguing to me. I said 27, 28 back to back there with Baltimore, Detroit. That is really interesting because, yeah, Brad Holmes, they, I mean, they care about the testing, but they don't care about it. You know, like they were going to draft good football, who they think are good football players. And at that point in the draft, I think, yeah, that would be a steal. Even though Detroit, obviously, when you saw what happened to that defense last year, you think, all right, it's got to, same thing with the Bengals, it's got to be defense, right?

At that point in the draft, if a player like this is available, yeah, I don't think you necessarily bat an eye if you see Tyler. Booker go off the board at 27 or 28. Yeah, I mean, what they played Gascoe, he's making about $7.5 million against the cap this year. There's really, again, no money left after this season if they wanted to move on. So, you know, this is a team that has not been afraid

to draft succession plans high in the draft. Oftentimes, it's the second round for them that they've been willing to do this, but they've done it in the past. You know, Jack Campbell, somebody they brought along slowly. They drafted N.S. Raikstra on the second round last year with having really no plan for him to be a starter in year one. And so them trying to double down on a strength after losing a couple guys on the offensive line over the last couple years. That would be, that would be very interesting to watch.

Last one here. Will Johnson from Michigan, the cornerback, the last guy you wanted to mention, he is seven on the consensus board. He was 13 on your pre-combined big board. Dane, where did he land on your final top 100? He finished at 18. you know he's i think an easy player to like uh over the summer when i studied him coming into the year like you watch his 2023 film and you're like okay i i understand why he is uh so highly thought of why scouts really like him and it's like all right this is an easy starter and but and this is

partly because of where he started right because going into the year is like all right well he's could be a top five pick he could be that if he builds on what he did last year he could be a top five pick well That didn't happen. It happened earlier in the year. He had a pick six against Fresno State and, you know, played really well in September, but then some ups and downs, then the injuries. And the thing, part of what makes him so polarizing is he's not a burner at the position. His short area stuff is better than his long speed.

And so he's slated to work out. He's been hurt really, you know, since October. So we haven't seen him work out at all. he's slated to workout for teams this Monday upcoming Monday. Now, I hope I'm wrong and I hope he does run a 40, but teams expect him to probably only do position drills and just kind of show that, hey, I'm healthy, I'm moving around, I'm okay. But yeah, some teams are kind of like out because,

or at least out in terms of him being a top 15 pick because of, okay, you're probably, you might be a 448 athlete. We're not sure that you have the speed. that we want to the position, plus you milked an injury all year. And so those are kind of, that's kind of the feedback I get from teams that are now kind of worried about, you know,

his profile. He's not as a first round pick necessarily, but as a top 15 type of pick. And so that's where it gets a little bit murky with him. And really, I mean, this is an interesting corner class. I almost mentioned Jedi Baron for this as well, just because he's is he a nickel? Is he a true

outside guy? Like some you know, like Daniel Jeremiah, who, you know, I have a ton of respect for, I think he's the best in the business. He thinks the top 10 pick. And I know I can't get there with Jedi Baron. I think he's more of a nickel-only type of guy. But a lot of these corners at the top of the draft are, if you take Travis Hunter out of it, Will Johnson, Judi-Baron, and then you get into Max Harrison and Tarrison and Trey Amos.

Like, it's an interesting corner class at the top, guys that will go in the top 50 that might not be slam dunk for one reason or another. and Will Johnson's at the lead of that conversation. What did you think of Johnson when you watched him, Derek? On which end of the spectrum do you feel like you sit here? I mean, what did you have, Dan? 18, you said? Yeah. That's probably where I would put a player like this.

I like him a lot. I think he does a lot of things really well. His eyes in zone are phenomenal. He has really quick, fast feet. He does a really good job of as soon as he sees the quarterback going to throw or he knows he needs to break on something, he's out and his closing speed is phenomenal. Where I struggled with Johnson a little bit.

Part of it is that long speed. And the other thing is, I don't think he's a bad man-to-man corner by any means. But if I'm taking a corner in the top 10, I want him to be like, I don't have to think about it. I can put him on their best receiver and we'll be okay here. That to me is like Derek Stingley's, the Pat Sir Tans, like that level of prospect. Travis Hunter can obviously go in there. Whereas Johnson to me is more, the way he plays is a little bit like if Sauce Guard didn't quite have the top end speed that he has.

Where like the zone stuff is phenomenal. It's just like purely running with and being physical with players can get a little bit up and down sometimes. That's stretch in the middle of the draft. There are some teams that could absolutely use a corner. Atlanta could absolutely still use a corner. We did this exercise earlier this week. It was hard not to give Atlanta one of the edge rushers because the way the guys came

off the board, all the edge rushers were available. And even if you could make a solid argument that the Falcons, might have as big a need at their second outside corner spot as they do at the edge rusher spot, it's still tempting just to throw the edge rusher there because of the history over the last two decades. But Arizona is a team that could use another corner. How about this one, Derek? Let's say, no one expected Quinnion Mitchell to be available at the 25th pick last year or fall

outside of the top 25. It did happen. What if we had a little Jesse Minter Will Johnson reunion at 22 there, day? And how would you feel about that? I say that pick or 23. I think 22 and 23 are interesting with the chargers and then the packers back to back. Two teams that could potentially use another outside corner. I think both would kind of fit.

And that's kind of in my opinion like the range he should be going 15 to 25. Somewhere in that range makes sense to me. The bucks need another corner to the bucks are picking at 19. They absolutely need a corner. So that that would be one I probably have circled as well. And I really like him in Bowles' defense because it's a defense where you're going to play a lot of zone and just have to jump his shit sometimes because we're throwing five or six blitzers,

you better jump on stuff. And I think you'd actually be pretty sick in their defense. And sometimes that will... All three of those teams. I say, so sometimes that backfires on them. You think of against Washington last year, against Roma Dunezay,

those double moves will get him. Actually, they lost the Washington, Michigan lost the Washington game this year because of a late misstep that he had on a double move on that tape. So that's something that he needs to get better at, but I 100% agree. Like his ability to read, react, and go.

And he was a former receiver, and you can tell with the way that he attacks the ball at the catch point. So, yeah, there are definitely some parts about his game that you can cling to and say, okay, yeah, this is why he's an NFL starter. This is, but you know what, you think about corners taken top 15 the last 10 years, not many guys in there that ran lower or worse than a 4, 4,45. You know, just we don't see corners that don't have that top end speed. go necessarily that high at least in pat and hey maybe i'll be wrong maybe he'll run on monday and it'll bust out a four four two and you know this will all be moot but uh i don't know he just doesn't play to that speed necessarily let's say he does run he runs a four four flat where do you think he deserves to get drafted is that to be is that the biggest concern to you or are there other things

outside of the speed that you still think are they have the a little bit of a thumb on the scale because of that. The speed is definitely a driving force. The fact that he was hurt all year and, you know, some teams were not sure just, you know, could he have come back and that type of thing? But, you know, it is what it is with the injury stuff. We're just guessing at that point. You know, I think that you could make more of a case.

Because again, after you get past the top three or four guys in this draft, that next tier is so wide open that if you, if he is a confirmed, confirmed 440, 439 type of athlete. It's like, all right, you can talk yourself into some of the risks with him because the speed isn't as much of a question mark, even if he doesn't consistently play up to that speed. Every time I look at the first round, it just becomes more and more confusing and compelling.

All these teams in this range, like the Raiders desperately need a corner, desperately. Is he somebody that deserves to go with a sixth overall pick? Carolina still needs another outside corner. They also need 10 pass rushers. It's, there are so many different ways that this can all go. And it is going to set up for a fun couple weeks and a fun couple days when we are all together in Chicago.

You said deserves, but I don't, like, in this class, I don't, they deserve. Does that matter? It doesn't matter. Yeah. That's it. Like, I think this is a draft where, and this is like the Browns, I think ideally in a perfect world, they'd love to trade down. But in this draft, do you really want to trade back?

I think you'd love to get that extra draft capital this year or potentially even next year. If you can pick up a first round pick or whatever. But do you really want to trade away from Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter and kind of have a grab bag with your secondary options? I think you better to think long and hard about that just because that second tier of prospects, there's some talent in there, no doubt about it. But it's more, you know, each one of those guys, there's something about them that you could see this going not right. And that makes it makes it difficult to stack these positions. And I think we might see some teams maybe go against the grain a little bit just because they feel better about a certain player compared to others. So this might be one of those years where the consensus board just doesn't matter.

It's not something. And it never like matters in terms of what teams are going to do in their decision making. But it just might not match up closely to the consensus board because the first round outside of those. top three or four picks, it's really wide open. This is the William Money Draft deserves got nothing to do with it in terms of how this is all going to unfold for us. Very much looking forward to it. We will be back tomorrow having, you know, somewhat similar conversation about a few of

these edge rushers with our buddy, Fran Duffy. Very much looking forward to that. That's all we'll have for the rest of the week. We've got plenty of fun stuff coming over the next couple weeks, though, like we've mentioned at the top of the show, live in Chicago. first two nights of the drafts round one rounds one through three it'll be the three of us with bruce feldman joining us on thursday very much looking forward to that please have that on your calendars please have it circled leave yourself a note we would love if you guys would come

hang out with us for now that's all we got for this show sincerely appreciate you guys listening we will talk to you very soon