The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The NFL's best edge rushers, with Seth Galina and Steven Ruiz

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

Wait up, that's Nate Tice's music!!! With Robert Mays on his honeymoon, Nate takes over as the host on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Seth Galina of PFF and Steven Ruiz of The Ringer join Nate to break down the state of the EDGE position leaguewide, with a specific focus on rushing the passer, going into the 2023 season.Follow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Seth on Twitter: @pff_sethFollow Steven on Twitter: @theStevenRuizSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Hello, welcome to the Athletic Football Show. This is Nate Tice. I'll be your host today, stepping in for the usual pilot of whatever you want to call this operation. Robert Mace, who just got married. It's currently enjoying his honeymoon in Greece. It was a great wedding, went to it, beautiful weather in Chicago. It was like 72 degrees.

I couldn't believe it. I had warned my wife that it was thunderstorms were going to be incoming, and apparently they decided to hold off for. Good old Bobby. So that was awesome. But today, all the nice things out of there, we are going to be talking about edge rushers today, edge rushers specifically,

and I'll bring that back up, but we're going to be talking about rankings, superlatives, vibes, feelings, however we want to talk about these guys. But to do that, I have my own personal Blackwater, of football analysts that I brought in. And first and foremost,

I did it as an alphabetical order and it worked for first name and last name. So I'm going to start off with the indescribable Seth Galena from P. PFF, Seth, how are you doing today? I'm good. Indescribable. That's the highest compliment you can give.

It's either the highest compliment or the lowest compliment you could give. Exactly. And for someone that can never describe exactly what their heritage is and everything and ethnicity and everything, that's exactly how I want to describe you. You're indescribable there, Seth. So I think that's perfect for you. And also joining us today, the smoking gun himself, Stephen Ruiz, from The Ringer. I don't know why I went with smoking. gun, but how are you doing today, Stephen? You like that? I'm doing good, and I have plenty of words

I could use to describe that. Give me one. But I'll see, Canadian. Yeah, there's another one in front of that. French Canadian. There's a good one. There we go with that. But, no, so, like, honestly stoked, you guys came to join me today as we talk about this stuff. And honestly, I was coming up with categories. And we do the non-quarterback draft. We do the quarterback draft. And I was, I was like, let's just rank edge rushers. Let's just talk about a position that I feel like there are some cream of the crop guys that we're going to have up there. But as you get outside the kind of top tier, maybe second tier guys, I'm curious what you guys were thinking in regards to these players.

And really, again, I want to talk about rushing the passer, not edge players. So much to my chagrin, we're not talking about run defense, which is really hurt me. And really when I was talking about a lot of these guys, it sucked. Beth. I'm not here to talk about red defense. He's not allowed to talk about run defense, okay? It hurts, though. It's like, I even had to check with you guys. I was like, I said edge rushers, didn't I? God dang it, because I had to change a couple of my rankings on the own show that I came up with a week ago. So way to go. Already starting off great with my own subject matter. But again, that's the emphasis. But before we do that, just want to kind of talk about a stay of the league right now with the edge rushers. I know Seth, you've been doing a lot of studying. for just these players, all these defenders in general, right?

And I know, Stephen, you watch a ton of film as well. But I just want to kick it to you, Seth, because I know this is something you've been focusing on for PFF the last few months and just kind of give you some of your thoughts, observations, or just general know-how of these guys. And let's kick it to you. Yeah. What I really wanted to do this past couple of weeks was trying to get a refresher in my head of, like, what are the top guys doing to get to the quarterback?

and then in general, like, how do you get to the quarterback? And, you know, I've never played D.N. or offensive tackle. Never coached D.N. or offensive tackle. So, like, coming at a kind of, like, I know a little bit about football, but sometimes the specifics of this position, I needed to kind of really see for myself and really dive in there in more of a elaborate way than maybe when I'm watching, like, the prospects coming out of the draft each year,

like the edge prospect because you're really just looking for kind of different things. So the first thing was, like, I hope I'm not talking down to anyone, but I really came away with it with a really good understanding of how to get to the quarterback. So I'm like, okay, the fastest way to get to the quarterback is in a straight line, obviously. You're not going to get that unless for some sort of broken protection scheme or something, right? So really the fastest way to get to the quarterback is on the outside. the offensive tackle is inside of you. If you're the defensive end or the edge rusher, he's inside of you.

Therefore, the fastest way is just around him. Right. So how do you do that? And like the main thing is, because you're not at this level, you're not just going to run around him. Right. Like this is in high school football. You're not just going to run around the guy. He has good hands.

He's going to try and punch you. So the main thing is how do I pin his, the offensive tackles, outside arm to his chest so that he can't use that as a punch to get me off my line, off my path. And there's a few ways to do that. You can club him with your outside hand. So club rip or club swim. You don't really see a lot of club swim. It really does that.

But club rip. So the club meeting pushing your outside hand, pushing his outside hand inside and then you rip underneath with your inside hand. Or what we're seeing a lot of is the cross chop. which is taking your inside hand and coming through over the top to his outside hand, which looks like – when it works, it's like the coolest move of all time. So that's like the main thing. And then you rip.

Then it's – you generally end with a rip. And so, like, that's like the main thing. That's like 100% like the first thing you have to do to get the quarterback is how do you deal with that outside hand trying to punch you and trying to take away that angle. And then obviously, like, if you're good enough at that, then you can build in your inside moves, which is, okay, now the tackle is saying, okay, I got to get really outside because I know this guy's got a club rip. He's got a cross shop. I have to get outside. How do I get back? So then the year thing, how do I get back inside? And there's a bunch of moves inside swim. You see a lot. You'll see obviously a spin move. And then the bull rush, which is kind of the main counter. Fastball. So yeah, exactly. So that to me was like a refresh. Okay, yes, this is how this works. You've got to get to the outside hand.

What do you do with this outside hand? Because it's the fastest way to get to the quarterback. And then obviously there's other moves, different ways on the outside and then all the inside counter moves. So that was really just interesting just to rewatch all that stuff and learn about it. You've come a long ways away from or ascended from your tweet the one time when you were describing pass rush moves or your ability to describe when you said you're ranking prospects or watching prospects and defense and end prospects. and you said, ooh, can't do that. Oh, no, that's no good. And that's how you described pass rush moves.

You've come a long way, buddy. That's where I am right now, though. That's where I am. You said, like, we were going to rank them based on vibes. I was like, yeah, that was for me. I don't know any of the, I don't know how to name any of the moves. That's my problem. It's a lot of defensive coaches,

defensive line coaches a lot of time on their hands. And they're just like, ooh, that's the ice pick stab. And it's just, you know, it really is just name. It sounds like finishing moves in Morrill Cobet or something. Have you guys been following former offensive line coach Jim McNally on Twitter? I know you guys have. I sure have it. I know you guys have.

So let's see. No, but the interesting thing from an offensive line perspective is how many different moves that he has, that he's like these individual, like, different hand placements or different moves. I saw today he's talking about a highlight kick for like on duo and stuff like that. Like all these incredibly minute, different moves and then pass rushing and defensive line play is probably the same. Yeah. I think the one thing that stood out to me when watching like all the top guys is just we talk so much about like technique and moves. And a lot of these guys, like Nick Bosa, for instance, I thought he would be more technical. And like, he's just a freak man.

Yeah. Bull rush. Yeah. Yeah, a Bull Rush merchant and it works every time. But, like, that was kind of my takeaway from watching these guys over the last week or so is, I just want to freak. Just give me a freak. Right. Especially in today's NFL where I think the edge position is evolving more or faster than other positions just because of what's happening at the college level.

Like, Michael Parsons watching him, I thought, and we're going to talk about him later, but that was kind of my, like, awakening. And I assume that I would rank someone else ahead of him on this list. Spoilers. Yeah, I'm trying not to give away. Spoilers. But I was just like, he's a freak. And that's what I want. I just want the strongest, biggest, fastest guy.

And I'll figure out the rest. The term I always come back to is force of nature. And like, but it's just that I don't know how to describe these guys. I'm glad you guys say that because even after Seth just explained a half dozen moves and pitches, some of these guys have, the top guys is just like, they're just something. Like it's just a freaks. Like they just do chaos. Like they just are ass kickers.

They just do stuff. And some of it's you can't teach. And that's why they're the best of the best. Like yes, they had used technique and there's hand placement and all that. But some of it's just like they're just better than everybody. And that's what you really want. But it's incredible like you guys are saying what those guys have. Well, so, you know, one of the things is often the tackles are really good too, by the way.

Yes. So they're really good at like even if you, even if you're able to like, club their elbow and keep that outside arm pin they're really good at like replacing it and getting it back there and so you might have a good first move with that club and then try and then try and rip through them they might still get that that that kind of hand back into a good place and you have to rip under their their armpit right which you see like all the time right because it's so hard to get a good clean club rip in yep so they're ripping under the armpit I guess what type of a player you need to rip under an opposite?

Which is not a hold, by the way. Not a hold. Not a hold. But go on. Sorry. Sorry. What type of player do you need to be able to have a guy lean on you? Have you in a good position? Because he's kind of got you in the chicken wing maneuver type of thing, not a hold.

What type of player do you need? You need a freak. You need Vaughn Miller who can still have that ankle flexion to be leaned on and still get to the quarterback and Miles Garrett and all these guys. like, yeah. Yeah. Balances like keep coming back to them. These guys at the top, like one thing I noticed when I was watching is like when I'm trying to slow down and trying to like break down how a moment like you just described happened and like there aren't enough frames in the video to like really figure it out.

Like it skips and you're like, wait, what happened in between there? And that just goes to your point. And those are the freaks. The guys that like you need 60 frames per second to really see what they're doing. Yeah. These aren't 30 frames per second guys. I like that. So I, so let's just dive right into it. I, I wanted to do these reverse order. So maybe I'll start with you, Seth, at first, but we'll go 10 through six first and then we'll go five through one. And I think that would be just a good way to kind of chunk this off with three of us here.

But yeah, I'll start with you, Seth. And again, this is just edge rushers. I don't want to, that's why I keep emphasizing this, because there are other components of playing. But getting after the passer is first and foremost. It throwing, having a, having a, quarterback is the most important position and then getting after the quarterback is to me the second most important. And then you get into all the other positions blocking that guy that gets after the quarterback is then thirdmost. That's just me, my positional value. As anyone that's listening to this show, I've emphasized over and over. But it's so important. That's why it's so much fun to talk about these guys and how they win. And some guys are just freaky and you can't describe them. So but we'll start with, uh, that's 10 through 6 block. So have at it. I'm going to,

I'm going to ruin your life here. I'm going to do 10 through 7. because that's my tier three. So I got one, two, three is two and one for me. I met to, I actually meant to bring that up. If you guys have a tier break, let me know for that. So thank you for doing that. It's like you guys are professional. So this is great.

All right. So at number 10, I went with Hassan Reddick, Philadelphia Eagles. Number nine, Danny Hunter, Vikings, number eight, Trajank's. Danny Hunter. It took me a lot. Is that the LSU, RANDU.

Mary there's coming out. Is that when he was not at LSU, Danny? Daniel Hunter for the Vikings. Anyone's curious? Number eight, Shrey Hendrickson and number seven, Roshan Garys. That's my tier three. Mine's 10 through seven, yeah.

I have, I have Dan Hunter. I call him Dan. That's amazing. More formal. Hassan Reddick. I have Matthew Judon and then Joey Bosa. Okay, that's a fun one. I'll throw mine out there.

and this is, it was tough because there's a guy I really like, I had to drop off the list, but we'll get to that later. I went Hassan Reddick at 10. I went Rashan Gary at 9. I went Trey Hendrickson. Ooh, right above that. Then I went Vaughn Miller, and then I went Joey Bosa. So I went 10 through 6.

And that's kind of my very good tier, I guess. But really, it would go a couple more guys. I would include that Judon be one of them. And then another guy will bring up. But yeah, let's just start. So which ones do we have? And we had all of us had Redick there? No, Steve.

Yeah, let's talk about Redick. Let's talk about Redick. Okay, I had him at 10. And I believe Seth, you had him at 10. And then where did you have him, Stephen? Where was he off your list? I had him at 9. 9.

I'm sorry. Sorry. Yeah, okay. So 10, 10, and 9. So Seth watched us on Redick. And you're stacking all. And again, we watched all these guys and also just over the years watching all 20 or just watching games and all that.

So after you kind of studied all these edge players, why, why is he 10 for you? yourself. Look, the statistics have been like incredible the past couple years and obviously since he, you know, obviously last year, incredible year, but even like I think it's 2020 in Arizona when he makes the real switch to edge rusher from inside linebacker. Why this, why he ever played inside linebacker? I have no idea. Right. But so like, you know, you love to see it for him like finally playing his natural position and like eventually excelling at it. Like, yes. Speed guy. Speed, speed, speed, speed, speed. Talked about it before.

Cross chop. And we talking about the cross shop, like, I don't know when the cross shop happened, but I feel like it wasn't a thing when I was growing up. Like, no one really used a cross shop. Now everyone used the cross shop, but he's like one of the best at that cross shop. Loves to set it up with a little hesitation inside and then gets a cross shop on the tackles outside hat. Here's my thing about pass rushers. And he's a good example of someone who I think there's.

potentially regression coming. Because when I watched a lot of these top guys, they all had a super sick bull rush as their counter move. Like even a guy like Vaughn Miller, who obviously not prototypical in size, prototypical in bend, but not prototypical in size, he has a nasty bull rush throughout his career.

So in Redick does not have an elite bullrush or a great inside move. he's just so fast and that outside cross shop is so good that it kind of makes up for everything else. So I just wonder if you don't have that counter like where you go. Now maybe he develops it and he stays in the top 10, but I think there's a chance and that he maybe falls a bit, but as of right now he is top 10. Yeah, I think the Bull Rush thing is a good point. And like that last those last couple spots for me, it came down to him, uh, Dan Hunter and Roshan Gary.

And I think Roshan Gary is like the opposite of, of Reddick where Gary does have that, that bull rush. He could just run through an offensive tackle. And I thought Redick, and maybe I'm just being too harsh on him, maybe I didn't watch him enough, but I thought he was a bad right tackle merchant, basically. Like he was very good, because he has the shorter arms. He does rely so much on winning with his hands.

and he has to get inside the tackle that I thought the bad offensive tackles that kind of let him get inside of them. That's when he had his most success. And he, like, took over games against bad, like against the Saints. I don't even, number 76, I think he's last name to Young. He was in the Saints game. I don't think Redick, like, really showed off a lot of, like, past rush prowess, but he took over the game. And he just used his speed in his hands. And I do agree that he needs something else.

I don't know if I really remember him winning inside the whole time I watched him. I think I watched all of his pressures and I can't recall one. So I do think he's kind of... Some of these sacks come the same way. It's kind of funny. They all look the same. They all look the same. They all mesh together in my brain.

So yeah, but you keep going to. Yeah. So I think he's really benefited from playing in that system in Philadelphia, where you put him in a more, not a more demanding system, but a system to ask him to do a little more. And I don't think his get off is as quick as it would be. Yeah. Or as it is in Philly. I also think that.

that the fact that they've played with five down defensive linemen as much as they do helps him not get double-pe. I also think it's isolated a lot. And I don't have the numbers in front of me. I think we do chart this at PFF, but I don't have them in front of me. Just the amount of chips and stuff he got was probably less than the other top edge rush. I barely saw anything. Never, right? You never saw it.

None. No, that's a great point. That's kind of why I had him at 10 is that at first early in his career, especially in Arizona. And then when he went to Carolina, I was like, oh, you know, He's underrated. You know, this is a good player. And then I think the last year, because the production finally came to last two seasons, really, Carolina and now the Eagles, it was now, he's gotten a little overhyped with some of the stuff.

And it's like he's a very good player. But I, even in my brain, to me, he's like a super, super DPR designated pass rusher. And that's not a bad thing. I'm just saying as an overall player. But it's just like he's almost like a number high end number two as opposed to like the dude. And none against him. he does take advantage of those isolated situations. That's the thing, because a lot of guys get isolated situations.

He at least wins. And it's the classic and even on the scouting scale, when you talk about an elite guy, it is no matter what the competition is, he's winning. And that's the thing for him. And you talk about him being a bad right tackle merchant is that when he goes against high-end guys, sometimes he's getting washed out. And I'm not feeling his presence in the game. And then there's other times where he's just dominating the whole game because he's the better player,

which is good. So I think this is a proper tier for him. I'm kind of glad that he's deserving to be on this list, but it's like it's just, it's very hard to kind of place him because, like you guys are saying, he doesn't have that maybe just other stuff that some of these other guys have.

To me, he's the classic undersized pass rusher, like just the classic, the guy that can get off. He has outside moves. He has good hand usage, but then he just doesn't have that extra, maybe top tier stuff that these other guys have.

The other one that you guys had in your, in this kind of first portion of the list that I did not have. Let's talk about Danny Hunter. DeNeil Hunter. God, now I'm going to call him Danny. But Danny Hunter, Daniel, would you guys have about which spots again? Do you have said to you had him at 9 was it? Yeah.

And then. And you had him at 10. And you had him at 10. So, okay, flip-flop of those. So, yeah, talk about Danny Hunter. Stephen, what's go? So you start with a 10. So I ended up putting him in here because of the pass rush designation. Right.

And for me, he's just that he's the freak. And I know, like, last year his numbers, they didn't like totally fall off. But when you look at him in like pure pass rush situation, He doesn't have the pressure rates or the sack rates that compare to these other guys. But for me, watching him the last couple of years, I just think when he's on, he's unblockable. And I'd rather have that guy than say a, and I know I'm going to break your heart here. And it broke my heart to leave him off my top 10, like a Brian Burns. Yeah.

Broke my heart too, man. And then I studied these guys and I was like, yeah. If this was all around game, I would. Correct. I would have had him 10th because I think he's like the perfect modern edge. Yep, I totally agree. Like that lead tier. But I really think, and I still think Hunter, when you watch him a couple times throughout this year and now I'm blanking on the game that I recently watched, that he still has that in his game where he could take over at times.

And I know there's been injuries, there's been contract disputes that have gotten in the way of him like being a more consistent performer. But I think that he has the potential to get back there. He's still a younger player. He's still on the younger side. He still has all that athletic ability, get him in the right situation and the right defense. I also hate this like the Fangio tree of defense and what they asked their defensive line to do. They can make them look worse. I mean, this is a guy that kind of dealt with that in college, right? That's why he dropped. Because he didn't understand his role. Yeah. But yeah, I just can't get over. Like, he's the traits guy. And I'm never going to get over. Those are my guys. Yeah. So backing you up with those numbers,

He fell from seventh to 23rd. So 2021, he was 7th. 2022, he was 23rd in passing pass rush grade on true pass rushes. So true pass rushes, meaning non-screens, non-RPO's, non-play action, those type of like true one-on-more. As close when we can get the true one-on-once. So, yeah, I agree. Like, he fell off a bit, but like the high-end talent is there. The weirdest pass-rusher in the league, by far, not even close.

Right. Has his own moves. I can't even really, it's like an under rip. I don't really know what it is. The screenshots are so funny. Like if you take just screenshots of him, it looks like he's never played football. It's like he's like he's like Superman punching guys. Like he's like, he's like, yeah, um, I'm trying to think of a good basketball player that

this. Maybe like Tony Parker or something like where they, or maybe like Steve Nash where they were kind of like same leg layuping. You know, like they go off the same life. Like that's him as a pass rusher. Like he's kind of like it's funky. It's, yeah, I don't know how to describe it. But, uh, yeah, I don't know how to describe it.

But, uh, yeah, keep going. Yeah, no, that's it. Like, he loves jumping around. He has like two legs in the air, like two feet off the ground. Like he said, Stephen, the screenshots are crazy because he's not even on the ground for half of them. And, yeah, just one of the weirdest guy. But a spin move, whenever that idea for a spin move pops into his head, which happens often, he's done it, he's doing it. Inside spin move, outside spin move, doesn't matter.

I love that he's a fighter too. Like, he just never stops trying to use his hands, trying to disengage. and get into the quarterback, and then obviously, like, the athletic ability is, backs this whole thing up, because you shouldn't be doing the stuff he's doing unless you're a freak, like we said.

It's like fighting a drunk man. It's like fighting a drunk man. Yes. He's a drunk. This drunk man is very big and very strong. He's his drunken boxer technique. That's what it is. He just sways around, arms going every which way.

He just missed my list. Remember what I say? It was kind of like really at top 12. he would have been he's included in that 12 him and brian burns were like 1112 for me i guess would be yeah it might be more top 13 because i'm cheating a little bit on that uh but it for me just like you guys are saying maybe it's one of those where it's uh what have you done for me lately and maybe it's just a that's in my brain a little bit but i do appreciate the player because it's one of those is like this why you got paid it's still a team friendly contract he's like you said set he's super

young i remember he was always kind of a hack in madden when he was a rookie because he was only 20 uh as a rookie and you know that is something that is something that's something that's that you forget, like, some of these guys come in so young that now that he's going to be on his third contract already, or about to be, they'd be a super young age. But just like you guys said, he's funky. He's a good pass rusher. I kind of just have one of those that may be a blind spot to him because I haven't, because of some of the injuries he's dealt with recently. And then moving on from DeNeil Hunter, another guy, I didn't have my list. And you didn't as well, Seth.

Stephen, you had Matt Judon and this kind of first tier of rankings or I guess third tier of rankings, I should say, reverse engineering it. But why do you have Judon? I know he's super productive and stuff. I had him just off my list. This might have been the 13th guy. But why'd you have him in your kind of this bottom half? I really liked him because he doesn't get beat. Like he doesn't get beat badly.

Like he's never out of a play. And I think he does a very good job of keeping quarterbacks in the pocket. Like keeping that contain. I know that's like a big Belichick thing and maybe Belichick is coaching him up. Right. Maybe it's a scheme thing. But he rarely loses contain and he always takes the most efficient path to the quarterback. that. And I think that's why a guy with maybe not the, the traits, it's not like he's a bad

athlete or anything, but maybe not the traits of these top 10 guys is able to produce on their level. And you, like, you break it down to even, like, pure past rushing situations, and he's still putting up numbers that compared to the bottom half of the top 10. He's not quite in that, like, Crosby, Bosa range. But he's still, he, I think he's just super productive in ways that are, I don't know what the word is, sound for the defense. like he never takes himself out of position. He's not like the best pass rusher compared to these other guys, but I do think he's a better football player than Daniel Hamter, for instance.

Yeah, I just right off. I would agree with that. He's just like he's insanely productive in the things that he is good at. He's really good at. Like, he's a tight end destroyer. Anytime he's on it with tight ends. They're dead. Like that's what he was at Baltimore.

That's what he was still in with the Patriots. And even I think he's also really, really good. And because they use him on this, those games and twists, he's really good as a penetrator and a looper, which I think he gets a lot of production off of because he's really good at it. So they ask him, hey, let's just do it a bunch with him. I had him again. He's probably the 13th guy, and that's kind of just off the list. And I know him spoiling some of the honorable mentions. But I do think he is a super productive way he's good at.

He's good at a couple of narrow things. I think he maybe doesn't have some of the flash that I like for some of these other top-in guys. But like you said, he's a good football player. So I totally understand it. He's one of those I kind of underrate my brain a little bit. And you're like, man, this is my first got 13 sacks already? Yeah, he's so good against like boots. Like boot action, he's so good at it.

Yeah. And like you said, being a tight end of short, it kind of helps you in that regard. But he's also very disciplined and doesn't. Like you watch like Sean Gary try to deal with like a boot and it's not you did. That's just the Packers defense it seems in general. Seth, he was off your list. Is there any specific reasons or maybe I don't. I'm assuming he's not higher, but any reason say he was kind of off your list or honorable mention or whatever.

It seems like with him, every win became a sack. Which is like, so, and this is interesting discussion to have. That's good point. That's probably a good skill to have, right? Right. But it's like, is that repeatable year to year? Or is it just something that maybe he is, right? And Brian Burns, we could talk about him later in the same way.

but it says like every win became a sack so that's where the production was really high whereas like the pressures weren't as high and other things were as high I agree with you what you're saying about like him being like a classical edge rusher outside rip inside swim

you know what I mean like the classic everything you got good enough Jews not a lot of power but like you know good enough there like an old school three four sand yeah but that's good at rushing so so that's why he's kind of a little off this because I wasn't sure if the production is there for real. Here's my thing with the production.

I feel like we've been saying this about him for like three years. Right. Even going back to Baltimore when he was a free agent. And this is when we're going to talk about him a second, but like Hendrickson is the same way of screw it's talking about him right now. That's the thing for Hendrickson. It's one of those guys I've kind of had always underrated my brain. Even his last year when he was about to be a free agent with New Orleans, I was kind

like, okay, you know, it's not always there. Like, yeah, he has some good numbers, but it's not like it's that. But then it's like he just keeps doing it. with the Bengals. And that's why I had them ranked fairly high. And I think, yes, Seth, you got an eight. I'll give you my Henderson stat. So, and it's interesting because the Saints are just kind of had the same situation

happen to them where they let Marcus Davenport walk this year. Yeah. But it's like flipped. So Hendrickson, after 2020 with the Saints, so his last two years with the Saints was, I had a 13.7% win rate. pass rush win rate, which was 62nd percentile the league, so not great. His sack rate, however, was 99th percentile.

So every win was a sack. Every pass rush was a sack, even though he wasn't always getting to the quarterback. It wasn't always winning. So the same took that chance and said, okay, well, he's actually maybe not that good and the sack rate will come down because it's unstable. And what he's done is become a really good fast rush rate with the Bengals, where his win rate has actually gone out the last two years. his two years of the Bengals,

it's 21.3%, which is 93rd percentile. And the sack rate has actually gone down, but it's still like in the 90s. So it's like, you're getting the best of both worlds now, and that's why he's, now he's really in the top 10,

in that tier three, I think for sure, as a pass rusher, maybe not as a run defender. I think I didn't make that adjustment with him because he was a little further down. He's like 15th, so I didn't,

like I saw like other guys and moved them up real quick once we realized it wasn't run defense. But yeah. And just, he's, able to win in situations where you just don't see other guys win. Like the reason why the Bengals were able to play a rush three so much against the

cheeses because they were winning those matchups on the end with just three rushers. And Lua Aniromo did a good job of making sure those were one-on-one matchups with like how he was presenting pre-snap. But he still got a win in those situations and he did it consistently. He beats up bad tackles. And he, we're going to talk about this. But his double hand swipe is like fantastic. It's great.

His is, yeah, he cleans that window. But he is, even like talking about more stats, the ones I looked up through true media, because, you know, we don't, I don't have that PFF ultimate access like a certain someone does here. But he was, you know, third and QB hits per pass rush last year, only behind Nick Bosen or Sean Gary. He was also up on this list for me. He's more of, I really just thought he had more of a complete game as a pass rusher than maybe I give him credit for. You know, he's going to get, he looks like a long snapper. He doesn't wear gloves.

He's got the long sleeve. So I'm always like, oh, yeah, you're our. hustle guy. And that's, you know, he's, I'll stereotype. I'll admit to that. But I thought he was a clean-up merchant, but no, it's like, no, this guy's instantly winning. Like, he is dominating guys. He has a great snap. I've seen him against Whitworth and the Super Bowl. Other games that he, he's had dominating Orlando Brown time and time again. But even not even just last year, because like the sacks kind of tailed off just a little bit, but the production, underlying production was still there. That's why I brought up the QB hits. KB hits to me is like extra base hits

in like sports. Or are in sports. baseball. You know, it's like, okay, home runs or home runs, but like you're still hitting doubles and triples and home runs. And since 2019, he's been eighth and hits per pass rush. And the guys above them are all the freaks, you know, T.J. Waw, Bosa, Parsons, Judon, Randy Gregory, and then Nick Bosa. So he's had those sack years, but the underlying metrics are always there. And it's because he's like, like you said, Seth is that he's adding more to his game. He's added more as a complete, complete pass rusher. So we're not talking about it as a run. defense, but focusing just on the past rush element, like he, he's a damn, damn good one. And like, they

kind of stole him a little bit. Like, even for me, I was like, oh, you know, that's a little bit of overpay, but he's been great for the Bengals. Um, for the other guy that I just mentioned on that list. So Seth, you had Rashon Gary at seven. I had him at, uh, where did I have him? I shouldn't not. I never numbered these lists. I just rank them out. And then I also like, one, two, three, four. I had him at nine. I had him at nine. I had him at nine. Trey Henderson, I had at eight. So so Gary had just below him. But, uh, yeah, so why'd you have him up there? Power, man. I think he's one of my favorite guys to watch because there is, you know, I talked about, like, Judon being that kind of classical, more of a speed edge rusher type of prototype.

And Gary is that more classical traditional power guy, always starting with a long arm. Always. And then I'm, and then, like, if I can just long arm you and just bring you back into the quarterback, I'll do it. But then the long arm will convert to a rip. everything is power all the time. And the numbers have been like kind of impressive the last two years in the league in terms of getting to the quarterback in terms of pressure. Obviously, missed some time this year.

So hopefully you can play a full season. And again, maybe help that they play, you know, five-man fronts. Right. There help that you have Preston Smith on the other side. So that for sure probably helps a bit. but I think he's just alone, he's just a really good pass rusher. Yeah, I really like him. I really do.

And I think he was coming on last year before he got the ACL. This is one of those. We do so many ranking shows. We're including contracts in years for the two, three, four. It's like, no, I'm just talking about what this dude is when he's healthy. And when he's healthy, he's fantastic. Mention that stat hits per pass rush last year. He's second and pressures.

So even just including all the hurries and everything, he had six sacks in those nine games. And just like what you're saying, Seth, just, some more power to the flashes of athleticism. You see it in the run game a little bit, but even the past game, I think he's still figuring it out. Like, oh, I can do that. Like, oh, okay. I can, I can fly like a Miles in the last Spider-Verse movie. I'll send you the, I don't know if you guys seen that.

I'm really excited. I'm seeing it tomorrow. So it's in my brain. But a little electric shock comes and he goes, oh, that's new. And that's how Rashon Gary is, like when he starts doing a new move. So I hope he comes back healthy because I thought he was starting to emerge. as one of these real, real dudes in this league. So hopefully it comes back healthy to see more of it.

Stephen, any reason he was off your list or near the list? I think it's just like a sample size thing for me because you look at the underlying numbers. Even like going just at pure past rush situations where I went on true media. I did all the filters. I did four-man rush only more than two seconds time to throw. No play action, open field, not red zone and all that. And he had the best pressure rate in that. NFL. Only 100 rushes and like the other guys had like 200. Right. Right. But 30% pressure.

And like no one was close except for role players. It was insane. And like I, I liked him the more I watched at first. I didn't really get it. Like early in the year, I don't think he, like you were saying, he didn't really know how to harness all the power he had. But as the year went on, he got better and better at it. And he just started blowing up quarterbacks. And he hits a quarterback. They explode. I think he hit a, he was the Washington quarterback. I forget who was, it might have been Heineke, who was like perfect to take a hit like that. You're like, as you call him the stuntman quarterback, uh, he blew him the hell up.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I really like him. I think he's going to, he was going to be my pick for a superlative later. But I think same that I have no problems with him being in your top dad. I know exactly the superlative because that's, I'm going to name him the same. Yeah, he, uh, Bailey Zappy took a shot against him. Holy crap.

That's who it was. That's who was. Oh my God. Um, obliterated. Like, I thought, you know. Zap that he just went. Just finishing up this kind of first tier, or I guess, I don't know, I'll do this third tier, second tier, or however you want to say it.

First part of this list, Stephen, you had Joey Bosa at seven. Overall, I had them. You know what, I'm, I'm, I'm calling an audible. I'm going to make him seven instead of six. I'm going to put the other, I'm put Von Miller at six. So I had met seven as well. Why do you have Mr. Joey Bosa up there? The original, actually, I want you to say the original Bosa because their dad was a guy, too.

But the middle Bosa, I guess, would say, why did you have met seven? I really think he's become an underrated player. Maybe it's because of injuries or whatever. But you look at his, and last year was little, you know, he was heard, he was off and on the field. But you look at 2021. You look at the underlying metrics. And this man is a freak man. Like his pressure, time to pressure 2.93 seconds.

Like no one is really even close to him. The only one close to him is Miles Garrett. And I think like you've watched them play. And obviously he's not Miles Garrett, but he kind of wins in the same way just being like, I don't, I don't, it's hard for me to put it into words because I've just, Like, I don't know the term. The password's terms. He's funky. He is just hard to block, impossible to block.

Just when I watch him, I'm just so impressed with him physically. And I still think he has, like, you know, he has the record was it skills to take advantage of that. And you see it in his numbers. As long as he stays on the field. And I didn't include, like, health concerns in this rankings. Yeah. And maybe he should be a little bit higher if I didn't do that.

Whenever I watch him play, I think this is a dominant guy. There are guys, maybe even higher on this list that I, that I have where I have. watch them and I don't think they impact the game as much as like I'm talking myself into putting him a spot or two higher actually I struggled with him because maybe some of the injury stuff but then I gladly watch I watched a couple games uh when he came back from the injury because he only played what four or five games last year and I watched him and I'm like oh yeah you're good I forgot that you're really really freaking good he's still he only played 160 snaps last year and he's still productive like even with battling the injuries and that's always going to be his thing but

yeah, he does some funky stuff. He's a weird mover. Like he just is. Like he's a good athlete. Like not as funky as Daniel Hunter, but he still has some of that. Like weirdly can stay balanced despite being in oddly shaped with his arms and his legs in all different directions and still always moving forward. He's always just attacking, attacking, attacking, attacking. But yeah, just he's only 28 this year.

Another guy that I feel like he's been in the week forever. It's just been productive. But when he's healthy and rolling, yeah, I'm with you, Stephen. And it's like, when he's healthy, it's like, oh, yeah, you're a little better than even I'm remembering. And I feel like I am giving some credit. I don't know if Seth, you might have him up higher or if he's off your list, but I don't want to spoil anything. Is he up your list a little bit more? I had him at 54.

So I had him at 6. And honestly, like, so he's in the tier 2 and you can mix up any of the tier 2. You can kind of mix up any of the tier 3 as well. And like you guys are saying, like, the more you guys talk about the more I'm like, maybe he's like in that tier 1.5. to be honest. Right. And he's funny because he's so, when I look at him, he's such a lean player, right? He's so long and lean that you don't see that type of, again, Daniel, Daniel Hunter is like

probably the closest comparison in terms of like body size. But yeah, such a technical player too. Like has all the moves you could ever run in a pass rush or great hands. And so different than his brother who we're going to talk about soon. But yeah, it could be, I had him at six, but, you. You could have them all the way up to, up to three or four, to be honest. I know we're not, like, counting run defense. But, like, him against, like, RPO's, he's so reactive and so instinctive that he just, like, blows up plays.

Like, two years ago when the Chargers defense was just terrible and, like, really had nothing. I mean, he was the one thing holding it together. He was the one reason. Both on the both sets. That's what it was. He's the reason they didn't give up, like, 150 rushing yards per game that year. He's just a great player. I feel bad now for underwriting him, frankly.

I do too. I even just knocked him before we even talked about him. I bumped a bullet other guy. Vaughn and I'm like, I don't know about that. Well, the Vaughn thing is just like, I don't, I wasn't really sure where to put him. Because coming off the injury, he's going to do a 33, something like that.

34 this year. But then I watched him in the first time this year. I was like, oh, yeah. I know. That's the problem. Because he's still Vaughn. He's still vaude. it's he's Adrian Peterson like I'm done doubting him until he's done that's where I was it was like

well he did this last year and he's come up from an ACL I know he's older but he's a freak it's like I don't know this he already showed it but this is perfect it's a great transition so we'll get into this next tier I don't know where you guys cut it off so um but Seth you will start with you that Joey Bosa was six so what this next tier that you're going to break down what is it six through four six through three or yeah I'll I'll do it's six, five, and four. Okay. And then the top three are my tier one.

So I went Joy Bosa and then T.J. Watt and then Max, Crosby. Okay. All right. That's my tier two. Okay. And then how about you, Stephen? Okay. I had Watt, Miller, and Crosby.

Who was the other one you just said? Vaughn. Oh, Miller. I don't know why Miller. Miller just broke my brain. I was like, Miller. I was like, okay. Is that new guy I haven't heard of?

I was like, shit. I was like, uh, maybe we should. Dan Hunter and, uh, in Miller. I just break my brain.

Danny and Miller. No, that's great. Uh, for my next tier, I guess, yeah, if I'm going to this next list,

I would say, I went to, okay, I'm going to include, and this is hard now. I'm like retroactively doing this, but yeah, this,

I'll just go from five to, uh, I'll just do five and four here. All right, you said Bosa. Uh, Bosa, Miller.

Okay, then I have Max Crosby. and then T.J. Watt. Yeah. And then that's, that's kind of like that tier for me as well. But I, I want above Crosby,

as opposed to you guys, but kind of we're talking about the same guys here. So, um, we'll go Steven. Uh, what did, T.J.

Watt, let's just start off with him. I have them maybe a little higher than you, but like you guys are saying this kind of, we're getting to the same kind of groupings. Like, it's pick whatever you guys want there. Yeah.

Like, when I, when I first did my list, he was, he was higher than Crosby and Vaughn Miller. And then I watched those guys play. I didn't necessarily watch him play just because the last time we really saw him was in 2021, and I had my memories from that.

But for me, he's that modern edge that said I wanted at the top of the show. I really think today's NFL, especially playing defense, is having tools. I think like the best defensive coordinators now have a lot of tools and are able to answer challenges every single week. Because we're seeing offenses present different challenges every week. And I think he's just a player that you can move around that you can do different stuff with. And he's going to be dominant wherever you put him. And there's a value in that. And I think he's a player, like maybe even more so than the guys that I have in the same tier that makes a defensive coordinator's job easier.

And like that's how I tend to look at these guys. Because I don't. Are they schemper? Yeah, I'm not like an expert on like technique, defensive line technique. So I look at it like through a scheme prism. And I think he's he's a skeleton key. He unlocks different fronts, different concepts. You can do, you can drop them.

you can rush him. Honestly, now I'm talking myself into having them higher. And I think I'm going to do that with every guy, every subsequent guy. I want every guy to be one. But he's a great player. When you get these first two-tier guys, it's like, man, I like them all. I like them all. But, Seth, you had him at five.

Anything you want to add on to there? Yeah, I mean, no, I agree. He has probably the best cross shop in the NFL. The hesitation inside. Some people call it a freeze. A freeze inside. And he gets the outside better than anyone. he likes to jump

he loves jumping and trying to back down balls you love your jumpers huh it loves it yeah really good inside swim move can do the the Vaughn Miller ghost rush once in a while it's really cool I'll also add that I would thinking about it now

Vaughn is probably in my tier two as well I did put him because I did put him because of the injury even though we're not talking about injuries but yeah he'd be my he'd be in my tier two Vaughn is crazy I watch him again this morning crazy

I'm gonna spoil because I think we're doing the best pass rush move later I'm gonna spoil mine is the ghost move because I think it's so unique to him and it's so funny when people like tweet out a clip

like as a teaching tape they call it technique it's not a technique it's like the Kareem Skyhook they call him that a technique If there's technique everyone can learn it right it's insane And like you talked about, and now I'm forgetting the terms you put it in, but you kind of talked about how edge rushers win.

And I think he's the one that makes it hardest on tackles just with that ghost move. And I think he's like, I think it opens up so much more for him. It opens up the inside moves, the spin moves. Like when he puts a spin on someone because they're expecting him to like dip under them and they're bracing for that, it's just he just embarrasses them. And it's like so easy for him. It's a risky move for other players, but not for him. And I think it's because of that ghost move. You just think about like the, like, what do you have to do with your body to block that as a right tackle?

And how you, like, he's starting you with speed on the edge. He could run around you if he wants. And now he all of a sudden he dips and you have to like bend over and be able to get hands on him. It's just impossible. Every single time. It's impossible. Guess what? His speed to power bull rush is disgusting.

It's insane. It's crazy. Again, for a guy that size. And he's always starting his rush with his up, with his up, with his up, his inside hand, like, at the tackle. Like, come get it. And then once you reach for it, he's underneath you in the ghost rush. And if he feels like maybe I'm not getting the separation, he'll just power you to death.

That's crazy. Like, for a guy at his age and at that size, it's incredible. What a career. And he could do like the little Euro step inside move, you know, that thing. And no one touches him. And him on loops and stuff, too. Him and Nick Bosa. When they're looping and stuff, they're insane.

Like, they could keep the. their shoulders parallel to the to the quarterback as they're looping with their bottom halves and their top halves are built differently. Like they control them with different joysticks. It's anything you ask him to do when he's rushing pastures, it's insane. The way he gets from, let's say, like, the C gap to the A gap on like an inside loop, it's like he teleports there. It's so, you know what it reminds me of Fred Warner's kind of jump cut that he has

when he's playing linebacker? Like, it's just like they teleport to a different gap. Like, what? What's going on? So, yeah, Vaughn is like all-time Hall of Famer. Probably, like I said, should have been in my tier two. But concern, concern with the injury. I hope it's okay.

Hope he's okay because I love to watch him. But still 34 coming off the ACF. I was talking about like the 60 frames per second player. He's like the guy. Yeah, that's totally good. Real quick, I'll talk about TJ Waugh for me is that kind of battle the injuries and stuff. But he's just like, you forget how freaking productive he is. And I mean, 22 and a half sacks just a couple of years ago with almost 39 QB hits,

16 force fumbles since 2019. For T.J, you know, I had my exposure, no his brother, but also watched him his last year when he blew up at Wisconsin. And then people were like, oh, you know, he's a tryhard guy. And then he was a freak at testing. And it's like, okay, then what's your issues with this guy? Only one of your production. It's like, yeah, it was really good, too.

And just entered the league. And it's just, but nothing but productive. I, what you guys were saying to is sometimes how they, unlocked the defense that Keith Butler, their defense coordinator a couple of years ago, just would let him go rogue. And I had a little cut up of it where it was just, I was going through my tweets and found him from 2020. And they were just truly just what they call Better Be, which is Better Be Right.

And it was just every snap, he's just going rogue. He was a monster back there. Just go make a play. And watch the football IQ, the bend, the balance, the strength, this burst. It's a really fun package with TJ. And he's so productive. Another guy that I'm hoping he has another healthy year this year because it's like, oh yeah, you're really good as well.

It's why you want defensive player of the year. But what you guys are saying with Vaughn, too. It's just I wanted to bump him up higher, even though he's 34 coming off a knee, ACL. It's one of those guys. You have to watch them again. And you're just like, oh, my God. Like, there's only like five humans in the world that can do this. And he's doing it in his mid-30s.

Other thing, too, still causes a crazy amount of pressures. But there's one stat I came across. And this was more for linebackers, off-ball linebackers. and I call it the FOI stat because he got a lot of garbage tackles when his time in his Atlanta. And then Trimbalky was like, yeah, I'm going to sign him. Is that he, it's tackle success rate, meaning it was a successful play for the defense per your tackles. And I know this is more for offball linebackers, but Von Miller last year had 100%. Every single one of his tackles last year was a successful play for the defense, which is insane.

So even if he doesn't get to TFL's run stops and everything, he's still tackling a guy one yard down the field or just not letting it be a successful play for the offense. So he's just an insane, insane player. So just keep moving down the list. So we got TJ, we got Von Miller. Let's talk about Max Crosby, Mad Max. Seth, you look like you're pining and talk about him. I couldn't believe what I put on his film. This is probably the first time really watching him.

I couldn't believe what I was watching. He is so powerful, so explosive. Double hand swipe. He's got two moves. Spin. He's got three moves. Sorry, he got two moves. Yeah, if you could.

Yeah, okay. Okay. So the swipe and the spin are the two like moves, quote unquote. The double hand swipe is as good as I've ever seen. Just like totally knocks the offensive tackle's hands out there and then it gets on the outside. The spin is fast as it's everything. For me, we're putting him over the top. I mean, obviously the production's there and everything.

But for me, we'll put him on top of this is bull rush is maybe the best bull rush in the league. Second step. It's one step up the field. the second step planting the ground into that tackle's chest, it wins every time. It's the most explosive move in football by an edge rusher. It's incredible. I could believe what I was watching. He is clearly in that tier two.

And then, you know, again, all these guys have these stretches where they're tier one guys. So he's tier 1.5, you know. Right. That's kind of where I had him out, too. Stephen, anything to add there? And I just think he's one of those guys where he's never out of a play. like I said with Judong, and even more so, just because he's more, he's more explosive. He has better tools.

And he was kind of the guy, like I said earlier, I think past rush moves are maybe a little overrated. And he's probably the guy that I came to that conclusion with, just because, like you said, like having a bull rush, I realize watching all these top guys is just like, you need to have the, like, Nate called it the fastball. And it's true. That's what it is. You need that fastball now.

And he's got it. If you could throw 102, you don't really need a lot of other moves. And he could do it. Right. Yeah. He still has the moves. I'm not saying he doesn't. No, I know. He was one of those guys that was just like, oh, he just overwhelms other people and it makes everything else easier for it. He is like as a true three down end. Like if you were including run defense in this too, he'd go up even higher for me. It's he's awesome. He really is. He should be a perennial all pro, even just the stats to back it up second than QB hits last year. All you guys are talking about the moves. He's ascending into that unblockable territory and a true.

three down unblockable. First, second and third down, he brings it. And just doesn't matter who's going against some. If he's going against a weaker tackle, like literally not strong tackle, all right, I'm going to bullrush him. If he's going more against a technician, okay, I'm going to do all the moves. And then I'll bull rush him. Like, he can just win in different ways.

And that's what's really cool to watch. Awesome player. And yeah, just a true three down monster. So I'm glad he's a guy like a pawn watch. Like every time I watch him, it's like, yeah, you're special. Like, you're a really, really damn good player. Yeah, he also doesn't get a lot of, I mean, he gets a lot, but he doesn't get as many like pure pass rush situations. Just because as a team he plays for it just doesn't happen as much.

And then obviously he's, even with Chandler Jones, he was always the focal point for opposing teams. And teams can run at him. That's what was really cool. I know we're talking about pass rushing, but I can't help myself. But it's like, you see offenses just check away from him just because they're like, no, screw that. He's going to blow up the play if we run this play at him. So that's, again, we talk about forces of nature he is.

And it's the thing, too, is that because, you know, he's a white dude from eastern Michigan, it's like you've got to look at his testing. He's a freak. Like, he blew the combine out of the water. Like, he has, he's one of those top tier athletes. And he's really just put it together every single year. It keeps getting better every single year. So it's cool, cool player.

Third and run defense grade, the last two seasons combined. He tied for the league, lead league, all positions. and TFLs and run stuff. Like, he's, he's a force, man. I mean, the only other guy, Burns had some stats up there as well. But like, so he's way at the top in past rush metrics and then run defense metrics. That's, yeah, he brings down.

So where did you guys have him tiered again? So, yeah, I guess I would put in my, I like how Seths saying the 1.5. I think that's where I'd have him. I had him and T.J. Watt kind of the same tier, four, five. And then, like, and then I had my vets that have been banged up that I love tier, which is Joey Bosa and Von Miller. So I would guess those four would kind of all be the same if I really was breaking this down. Yeah, I had him in, I had him like 2.5, I would say.

And that's just because I put one guy in their own tier at the top. But I had it with the other top guys that we're talking about with like the defensive player of the year every year. He's that type of player now. Yeah, that's kind of where the range we're getting into, right? These are like the defensive player of the year candidates. Like that's kind of like these guys have a viable. case in my mind as well, or at least. I think Max Crosby, the problem is he's going to be playing on an atrocious Raiders defense.

So he's going to be on his own again. So he might not get this accolades some of these other guys get. So let's talk about the top tier. I guess you had maybe your own tier as well, Stephen. So yeah, Stephen, let's go with the guys you got remaining. What's three through one, I suppose? Nick Bosa three, Miles Garrett, two, Michael Parsons won. and I don't care that we're not counting like other like we're just doing pass rushers,

but I'm still putting Michael Parsons Street just because I don't know what this guy is going to be next year. I don't know what he's going to be in two years, what he's going to be in three years. It's going to be insane. But let me talk about Nick Bosa. He was the one that I think I was shocked the most, like about how he won. Just because I always kind of like, like you said, he's nothing like Joey Bosa, but like that's always what I, like I don't watch him that much. I'm not watching pass rush a lot. So I just assumed he won in the same ways.

And it's not the same ways. Like, it's literally just running through left tackles. And, like, when he extends his arms, it's insane how the guys move. He buckles guys. Yeah, he's just so much stronger than them. And he's always in proper position to use to leverage that strength, too. He's a great player, man. Another great player.

All these guys could be number one. All these guys could be, the last, like, five guys we've talked about. I'm just, in all of them when I watched them recently, just amazing. football players. And Nick Bosa, I think it's because he's the white guy that maybe he doesn't get credit for being the freak that he is. Right. And we talked about it with Max. We talked about it with TJ Watt. And he might be the big, like in terms of the strength, I think he has like the biggest freak. That's why I brought up the looper stuff and the two names are Vaughn Miller and Nick Bosa. Like those are the two guys that are just, they do things that shouldn't be possible. And they're

doing it every single game. So and then Seth, what was your top three? How did you rank him? I assume it's the same three. guys but maybe a different order. Yeah, yeah. It's, well, it's, it's, um, Peyton Turner, Cameron, Jordan, Carl Grasen from the top three. Um, yeah, so I also. Filled out the Dome Patrol. Yeah, it's, it's the entire Dome Patrol is one, two, three. Yeah, both, uh, I mean, I, I, I said it before and Steve just kind of echoed, like,

you're surprised when he's not doing a lot of moves, but that bull rush just wins every time. Like, what's, what are you supposed to do against that? Why wouldn't you just do it all the time? Right, exactly. I put, you know, my first note was they built in a lab. Like, it's just a perfect body type for this position. That's it. Like, you know, an outside rip once in a while, you know, a little inside swim once in a while.

But like, really, it's just like sometimes a double swipe, but really it's just the bull rush. And it works every single pipe. And that's it. Yeah, there's not wrong with that. The, no, who else? How else did you do that? Was he third for you? Yeah, so he was third.

And then I still, as much as I love Michael Parsons, I still couldn't put him above Garrett. So I went Parsons and then Miles Garrett at number one. Okay. Okay. And then I'll shake out my kind of top three. And it's really, I believe it's the same as Stevens. Yeah. Oh, no, actually.

Actually, actually, I went Garrett at three. And then Nick Bosset at two. And then Parsons at one. And for me, and why I had Garrett is he's always a guy that just sometimes he leaves me just wanting a little more. And I hate that. And it's just he knows when he gets paid and that's fine because he cranks it up better than anybody. So maybe some of that Nick Bosa down to downness that I like that you'll see a little bit more. And this is just so arbitrary and so eye testy.

There's nothing really with it. But also just, we'll talk about Garrett in a second. but my kind of Nick Bosa stats, I'll throw him out there. Of course, had the 18 sacks last year, 18 and a half. 10% of his pastures snaps resulted in a QB hit, which is insane. That is, there's no one even close. The league average over the last four years is 3%. So he's basically, I mean, more than double, I mean, almost triple, over triple what the league average is.

The only other player above 10% was Devin White, and that's because Devin White does the green dog stuff when, you know, the running back's blocking and he just runs straight at the quarterback. 48 quarterback hits is third and pro football references database. The only two seasons above a bet or two JJ Watt seasons. And this is just last year. We're not talking about run defense, even though he does some things in a run game. There are some things lacking with Nick. Sometimes I'm like,

come on, you turn it up on a pass rush, but come on, maybe we'll stop it right here. So I think just also, I think just that all his kind of down to downness is why I haven't made the bump on Garrett. But maybe I'll just start with my little Miles Garrett stuff

before I kick it to you guys that have them second and first. Tons of QB hits, tons of sacks, has a production. Hasn't truly had that true supernova year, even with all this production, because he just hasn't just put it together completely as far as health, as far as team situation and all that. So I think this might be the year because all the help that the Browns added, that it's like, oh, yeah. Oh, there it is.

This is why you're the number one pick. But how he moves at his size and the bend he at his size at 20 to 30 pounds lighter than guys. I mean, he's doing stuff. You see like Von Miller do it. And then it's like Miles Garrett do it. And it's like, oh, yeah, he's like 30, 40 pounds heavier than Von Miller. That's freaky stuff. I kind of almost sort of wanted to bump him up, but it just couldn't do it yet.

Just couldn't do it yet, even though he's had the production and everything. But first and foremost, why did you have number one, Seth? I mean, the number is, again, you could, like, put a fine-tooth comb through all these numbers and you could find a different person for number one, really, depending on what you use, I think. to me he's he's probably actually one of the more unique pass rushers in the league

given that he's so explosive to the outside and tackles have to really like man they get so nervous when they play against they get so nervous and they have to open up their body so much and he's one of the few guys who his inside Tanner move

is like that Reggie White hump move where he he's like oh yeah oh yeah let me just with one arm throw you across the grain and get inside. And then what I've noticed over his career was, and he came in as a freak with not a lot of moves and not a lot of pass-rush acumen.

What he's been really good at is when he clubs, his outside moves is the club rip. When he finds the tackle's elbow so cleanly all the time and he's able to pinch that inside and get his rip going. And like he's gotten so much better at that throughout his years. It's just like if you can just do that. And then obviously you add in the fact that even if he misses the bend, like I talked to him earlier, even if he misses the bend and the explosion is so good that even the tackles leaning on him has that leverage, it doesn't really matter.

To me, it's, he's, it's not like the, like I said, there's not a ton of moves kind of like both, so not a ton of moves. But those two moves, the outside rip and the inside. up move are clean. They're so good. Yeah. And then Stephen, anything to add on to the freak that is Miles Garrett? Yeah. I have a number that like just makes them look even more like a freak. I got the getoff times from next gen stats. Yeah. And his get off was, his average getoff is point six, nine seconds. The closest guy in the top 10 of in terms of like the guys we're ranking right now is, let me see, it is Vaughn Miller at 0.76. So no one is within like 0.15 of him. And like everyone else is down like to that 0.78.8 range.

0.69 at his size is. Yeah. I don't know how to describe it. But I'm with Nate where it's like I just want a little bit more. And maybe my standards are too high for him. Right. But like I want him to dominate every game that he's in because he has that capability. And I don't think he does it like Bosa can do it.

And like Parsons can do it. I do think like I do think we, me and Seth are probably underrating Bosa a little bit. because we don't see the moves. Even though at the top of the show, we were like the straight, the way to get to the quarterback is a straight line. And I think Bosa is the best at doing that. But I think Garrett is probably second best.

Yeah. I think there's a look. This year will be the year where like, ah, yeah, there it is. Like there, it really is complete games. I do think sometimes he not, that's the thing is like the things I ding him on,

quote unquote, it's kind of unfair because maybe my expectations are too high. It's like, why aren't you perfect every snap? Why don't you bring it every snap? And when I was a coach, I used to get mad at the coaches that, used to do that to players.

Oh, bring it every snap. It's like, yeah, he's on the field for 60th street plays. Of course he's not going to bring it every snap. So I think it's sometimes talking out both sides of my mouth with Garrett. But what's goes for the last guy here and then we'll rapid fire some superlatives. But real quick, Michael Parsons. Yeah, Stephen, top of your rankings. And why do you got that?

He's number one because I watched him most recently. I think I would have put Garrett number one if I'd watched him most recently. But I watch him and I go, hey, that guy is different from everyone else on the field. and he's different every single play. Every single play. I watched the 49ers game the other day, the playoff game, and I know we're not talking about run defense, but just seeing Shanahan tried to avoid him

was like the funniest thing I ever seen. First, he doesn't run out of him. He runs away from the outside zone stuff. And Parsons is chasing it down. He's getting to the running back before he even gets to the line of scrimmage. And then he tries to read him. Like he has Brockford and going through the gun, he tries to read him.

That doesn't work. He blows the play up. And it's just over and over again. And I think that explosiveness that he has, like, in the run game, lends itself to the passing game. And it's like, you're watching the same thing in the way that he's able to get off and just get into the backfield on every snap. It's, it's fun to watch. And I think he's only going to get better as he learns more things. Like, he just, I posted that clip the other day on Twitter of him doing, like, the hump move after getting blocked.

And it's like, all right, I'm starting this snap as like von Miller. and then midway through, I'm going to turn into Reggie White and just throw this right tackle with the hump move. It's insane. An absolute wrecking ball. Every move, you know, he's got all the moves. The hesitation, like, he stops, tackles feet, and then he can do whatever he wants to them because he's so quick and they get so nervous. Everything. I mean, the only thing I put is that maybe he could add some more power to his bull rush.

But other than that, like, it doesn't really matter because he gets to the quarterback so much. He's got the outside ribs, got the inside swim. He's got everything. Has he moved, like I said. Incredible player. I can't believe how good he is. I, like, legit can't believe it.

Like Steven said, every single step. He's a fighter. He does not ever want to get blocked. He wants to make every single play every single time. Chases everything down. Every play down. Incredible player. Just incredible player.

Do you remember that there was a play in the 49ers playoff game where like Purdy kind of threw it in the double coverage? It was kind of like near the end zone where he threw it. It was like a boot. Parsons is beat initially and the way he just closed the ground on Purdy to not get that through off. It's just insane to watch. I just,

the only way I could describe is he's just a chaos creator. And it's reflected in the stats because he won't have as many hits, but him and Bosa had the same amount of pressures because pressures is all encompassing hurries and hits and everything. But he has 20 more pressures than Bosa. Or 20 more hurries than Bosa. So it's like that is reflected there. It's because it's chaos.

He's running after the quarterback, quarterback might get rid of it. It's just, but he's stopping the play. play. He's making a zero yard gain. I'm excited to see this year, him just getting, bringing the noise straight as a pass rusher, no more Mike linebacker, no more running like blind trying to cover people. Only 53% of his snaps last year were as a pass rusher compared to 67% for Bosa. So it's like, if he gets that up to Bosa numbers where he's just strictly going after the quarterback, it's like, holy crap.

He's a, yeah, we're talking about force of nature. He is one of, I mean, all these guys are crazy. but him is truly jaw-dropping when you watch him down to down and bring the effort and everything. He's just, he's awesome. I mean, first team all pro twice in two years. That's pretty freaking good. So we're going to really rapid fire some superlatives because, of course, I'm going long. Anyone that's ever had me as a guest on a podcast?

No, this is my M.O. I have never made it under the allotted time. So they, you know, like the Oscars where someone's doing the awards and they play out of the band. That's me as a guest. So that's me as a host, of course. So real quick, first one, we'll start. player in the top 10 that could jump up a tier this season. Seth will start with you.

I said Crosby could really go up to tier one. That's my guy that really, and like I said, he's already probably like 1.5 to me, but I just couldn't get enough of him when I watched him. So he's going from 2 to 1. I would do with Crosby, too, just because I don't have a good pick in the top 10. Yeah.

Crosby's a good one. I almost put Rishon Gary in my top 10 just so I could pick him. Gary's my answer. Yeah. So, yeah. Gary is like by default my answer. because it was like, that's the one. It's like, he's the youngest kind of one.

Okay, you can bump up, I guess. Like Parsons can't go from one to, you know, more one for me. So that's a little tough, a little tough. How about this one? I'm actually kind of excited to hear your guys' answer here. Player outside the top 10 or maybe outside that last tier we talked about that can move onto this list. Why I say on that last tier, because I cheated and had like 13 guys.

So outside that top 10 or this list that you consider that can move onto this list this year, Stephen? I went way down my list just because some of these guys are a little on the older side that I had in like 10 through 20. And I'm going with Jalen Phillips. Oh, yeah. Dude, every time I watch him, he just, I love watching him. He makes the impact. He pops every time. And I think he has, I know there's like medical concerns just because of how things went down at like UCLA. But I think he has a frame to get bigger. He's like, he's a tall dude. He's got big, he's got long arms. He's got a long wingspan. One thing I noticed, like when looking up the mock draftables, there's a lot of guys on this list that have short arms but long wingspans because like the shoulders are just so.

I guess it doesn't really matter with him because he plays long. Yeah. And I think he's the first thing that pops when you watch him is his arms are going everywhere. Yeah. And I think he's like kind of that that perfect guy for today. And like perfect edge guy, edge defender where he could be a pass rusher, but he can also like collapse that B gap if you need him to,

which is so key. He reminds me of Armstead a little bit. Like Eric Armstead a little bit. Like they kind of are cut from the same cloth a little bit. Yeah. Just arms everywhere though. And Seth, what's your answer for this one? Well, I had three, and Phillips is one of them.

Go for it. I love watching Jaylon Phillips really mature for his age. I mean, I guess he came in as an older prospect, but still mature in terms of his past rush moves and has a good bull rush. The other two that I'm really hoping have good seasons are Marcus Davenport because the underlying numbers were there. He doesn't play for the Saints anymore, dude. I know, but I still like, you watch him and he gets after it.

His bull rush is nasty. He's such a big, thick player that I'm not happy. I'm not happy that he's not playing for the same anymore because I think he really is a perfect edge for his size, powerful bull rush, but he still has enough speed to get to the corner. He's on his ass quite a bit, to be honest. But that's besides that. And the underlying numbers, didn't get the sacks, but everything else is there for him to have this really good season in Minnesota. And then the guy who I think is like, I'm super interested in is Josh Allen for. the Jaguars.

I think he's got a full array of pass rush moves. And I'm not sure he's ever going to be like that. Okay, we took a guy in the top 10. He's going to have to be like this like tier one guy. But man, I have this feeling like Judon. Right, exactly. Like he could be a tier two, tier three guy. I really think you'd grow into that role.

I like that. No, those are both. Jalen Phillips was mine. And then I had a couple like cheating answers. Like I had like Chase Young dot dot dot. Like remember him? Remember him? Yeah.

Then I'd like Will Anderson. in dot, dot, dot, whatever. But yeah, so Jalen Phillips was mine as well. Maybe just real quick, some of the guys that just missed your cut, like honorable mention, best of the rest. Seth will start with you. Yeah, I was two or three. Yeah, Josh, Josh Allen was up there and Mark Stamport.

So Darry Smith still got it. Yeah, I know. That was one too. But he's like a spinner that lines up over the center all the time. So that's actually why I'm splitting the hairs here. But that's why I dinged him because we're focusing on the edge guys. but that's just me being a nerd. A guy that I really like,

I don't say he's like, I wouldn't say he just missed out or anything, but a guy that I really like is Dietrich Weiss from the Patriots. Yeah, he's a ball. I might put him on there. But yeah, I think Zadari Smith is a guy who probably just missed out. Still got it. And that Cleveland pass rush is really looking interesting this year. Yeah, Obo Quakwell, baby.

That's my guy. Obo. Stephen? The obo's great. Just to add to the Zay Smith thing, Like, I only look at edge things and you look at his numbers on those snaps. And they're all insane. Like the underlying metrics.

I think he could still be like just a stationary edge rusher. But Minnesota decided to use him like that. Who do I have on my list that? Because I have a bunch of guys before he already talked about. I think DeMarcus Lawrence is, great one. It's going to bounce back. Like he only had six and a half sets. If we were putting run defense, he would make my list.

Right. Yeah. That's why he, yeah. He pops so much. Like even when like you're watching Michael Parsons, so you're just not expecting anyone else to pop and he still pops. Yeah. I think those two are just. I, I, I'm Brian Burns as well.

I know I mentioned that. Khalil Mack is kind of just outside the list. Yeah, DeMarcus Lawrence was a good one. And then, yeah, the sweat guys kind of like maybe like the fifth tier, you know, as we're getting to either further back. Okay, real quick, probably, yeah, okay, we'll go with this one right here. Best Pass Rush moves. Just give me a couple that stood out to you, some fun ones. Steven, we can start with you.

I'll just say the Von Miller ghost move again. That's the best move. I just put Von Miller as one of mine. Just whatever you want to call his stuff. Seth, you got one or two or three? Yeah, I would have a million. But like I said, the Garrett Hump move, T.J. Watt, Crosschop, Max Crosby, Bull Rush, or the double hand swipe, Von Miller, the Ghost move.

The one that's interesting, we just talked about is Daria Smith. His bull rush is to get inside. so he kind of torques the tackle to get inside. So it's like, when you think about bull rush and you're still trying to get outside and just kind of knock the tackle back, he tries to get inside. So it's kind of an interesting,

different style of bull rush. So those are my kind of four that I really like. I like that. I had the Max Crosby spin move that I refer to because he does an inside and out. It's kind of fun. You don't really see a guy win consistently with that right now. Yeah, it's nasty.

Yeah, it's surprising because he's a bigger dude. It's like, oh, that's fun. I just said Nick Bosa as a looper because it's just so much fun. That's not a move, but it's just fun. The Trey Hendrickson double hand swipe. I also did the Miles Garrett Rip because he, rip and band is like, oh. But it's like, it's like. Because he can do it like on a L.

Let's enjoy a rip move. Yeah. Let's enjoy the first thing that you're taught. And that is the best you'll ever see it. In A.W. Oh, God, I'm nerding myself out here. A.W. Seampunk came in and his like schick was to kind of do some.

A.W again. Some old school wrestling. And Sam Punk was just using a body slam, like just an old, not to set up another move, just body slam as like take off five hit points from the other wrestler. And it was like, a good old body slam's fun. Like it's just like good body slam. Pick them up and slam them down.

That is my Miles Garrett rip and Ben. Miles Garrett is just like Sam Punk. You heard it here here first. Okay. And then last one. Sorry, sorry, I'm getting the light flashed at me at the comedy store. I'm to go with favorite situation rusher. We'll keep a positive here.

So go for your niche guy here. Seth will start with you. Just your favorite guy that is just Ropr. DPR, classic designated pass rusher. Maybe it's a young guy that hasn't gotten there yet, but we'll start with you, Seth. Bryce Huff from the Jets. He just always wins.

That's it. He always wins. He's got just enough power, but the speed is nasty. Cross chop is nasty. Maybe a better cross chop than T.J. Watt, maybe. the way that he's able to angle himself in that cross shop to get to the quarterback is top top top top so yeah it's like you always think about it with these small snapple sizes like hey what if you gave him 300 true pass rushes would he be the same if in this when you extrapolate the 100 to 300 I don't know

but in those 100 it's it's it's money but he had a decent number of those like situations like And he was really a guy that was a designated, like he had three and a half sacks and they were all in like those like designated past situations. But he was another guy like Gary that had this insane pressure on him on those situations. And then I watched the film. I was like, that's got to be fake. I never heard of this guy, really. And then it's real. I did too.

And it's very real. I'm just going to, I'm going to go with the old guy. I'm just going to give a shout out to Brandon Graham because he's like the guy. The award should be named after him. And he's still, his numbers are still just insane. Yeah. No, that's a good one. I know.

I almost went with Justin Houston. Just give him a shout-up. But I'm going with Josh Uche from the Patriots, who is totally different than every type of Patriots pass rusher I've ever watched. Usually he has the more Judon types or just big pluggers that push the pocket. Trey flowers. Trey flowers. And this guy is not that. Undersized, Bendy cannot defend the run to save his life.

But that dude can crush the passer. Finally has a fairly healthy year, a bunch of sacks, 11-something sacks, 11 and a half. every, uh, on just 266 pastro snaps, everybody else ahead of them had 400 or more. So he is productive. Tons of bend has long arms. Kind of like a, he's like a diet, diet, diet, Diet Coke von Miller. Like that is, that is kind of like my comparison who can't play to run that whatsoever. Had the same QB hits per snap as Max Crosby.

But led all pass rushers and pressures per snap. Just yeah, super productive. I love this guy. Um, yeah, that, that would be the superlatives because otherwise we'd be here for two hours. Not that I mind it whatsoever. but guys, thank you so much for joining me on this adventure. Talk about edge rushers again for the emphasis. Rushers, not just edge players, edge defenders.

Sorry, we couldn't really talk about the 2022 class. I know Seth is just champed up a bit over there. I had another 35 minutes on the, on the four-lost-trump-tricks from last year. Who's your favorite one? I'll let you end the show with that. Who's your favorite one? It's Kay-Bon's a guy. Kay-Bon's a guy.

I like that. What about, you know, keep an eye on Drake Jackson. I think we all like him, so keep it all in. But no, this was awesome. Thank you guys so, so much for joining me. And everybody that listens to the athletic football show or listens to this show, please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast at. Please check out our YouTube channel, the Athletic Football Show,

just our YouTube channel. We'll be posting a bunch of content. Just wait for training camp. We'll be posting more. But thank you, everybody for joining me, joining us, and I'll see you all next time. This was the Athletic Football Show.