The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The nine most interesting teams of the offseason, Volume 1: Rams, Chargers and Raiders

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Welcome back to The Athletic Football Show's favorite combine week tradition: mining our ridiculously knowledgable beat writers for all the insight they have on their teams. We handpicked nine teams we deemed the most interesting of this offseason after the Super Bowl, then scheduled time during combine week to talk with each of their beat writers. This is the first entry in that series, featuring Jourdan Rodrigue on the Rams; Daniel Popper on the Chargers; and Tashan Reed on the Raiders. When and how with the Matthew Stafford domino fall? What will the Chargers do with all their financial flexibility? What do the Raiders look like under the Pete Caroll/John Spytek (and Tom Brady) regime? Robert Mays gets into all that with the beat writers, and a whole lot more.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Jourdan Rodrigue, Daniel Popper, Tashan ReedExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Jourdan on Bluesky: @jourdanrodrigue.bsky.socialFollow Tashan on Bluesky: @tashanreed.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Jourdan on X: @JourdanRodrigueFollow Daniel on X: @danielrpopperFollow Tashan on X: @tashanreedTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Coming to you guys from the NFL Combine in Indianapolis here with the entire athletic NFL staff on the first day of the Combine. And we're going to be wielding the power of that staff on our next three shows here from Indy. We did this two years ago. And I like doing it for a few different reasons. One, the Combine comes in an awkward time. Free agency is going to happen first, but it's a draft event.

So what do we talk about? Draft free agency. How do you handle this? I think the best answer is let's just talk about the teams and their needs and their outlook. And again, we are uniquely positioned to do this at the athletic. So we're going to do a series of shows over the next three days that are looking at, fudging it a little bit, what we're conceiving as the most interesting teams of the NFL offseason.

We're going to do three each day. And how we pick these teams is kind of all over the place. Some teams have a ton of cap space. Some teams have a new regime. And we're trying to figure out some information about them. But I feel like we landed on nine teams that I do think are going to drive a lot of the discussion about this NFL offseason. And we started this on the West Coast, not on purpose, but all of these teams are either in Nevada or California. We kick this conversation, the series of conversations off with our Rams writer Jordan Roder,

because I feel like the Matthew Stafford Domino is arguably the biggest one that has to fall this off season. What ends up happening with Stafford and the Rams is going to set off a chain of events about quarterbacks in three, four, five different places. So we dug into the Stafford situation and the rest of the Rams outlook with Jordan. We stuck in L.A. to chat with Daniel Popper, our Chargers writer, about what year two looks like for Jim Harbaugh and Joe Hortiz. This team now has up to $90-ish million in cap space after having about the two quarters they found in the couch cushions last year to pay guys.

So this is very, very different, especially for a team coming off of a playoff run. and then we rounded out this show by talking with one of our Raiders writers to Sean Reed about what the hell is going to happen in Las Vegas. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way. I'm very interested in what's going to happen in Las Vegas with Pete Carroll, with John SpyTech, the way that they see this roster, how they need to remake it, what they do at quarterback. So really enjoyed all of these conversations, excited to dig into a whole series of them over the next couple days.

Let's get those started right now. We're kicking off this series of conversations. about the most interesting teams in the offseason with, I would argue the most interesting domino of the entire off season because we need to get this figured out before we figure out we're five quarterbacks in the NFL land. So here to chat through the Matthew Stafford situation and the rest of the Los Angeles Rams off season, it is our Rams writer here at the athletic. Jordan, how are you doing? I'm good. Am I allowed to set the scene? Because I feel like I'm in therapy right now. You certainly can't set the scene. I'm on a couch. And there is more context

than that. I'm on a couch and Robert is like in a sweater and I'm in a sweater, but I'm in like a sad girl sweater. And Robert's in like a, like, professor sweater. It's a professor's sweater. And I'm sitting at a desk with a computer with a computer. And you are sitting on the couch. I definitely feel like, oh, hi, Christine. Nice to join you for my session this week. We were talking about this earlier today. We've all gotten too precious with like the aesthetics of podcasts. This is real football podcast. This is the real stuff right here. Us crammed into a hotel. room in a very non-professional. Belor doesn't have shoes on right now. He's in his socks six feet away from me. And the room still smells so floral and good. I just, I'm amazed. It's like multiple dudes have been in here. I'm ruining all the context. We just got here. So we've only been here for like 20 minutes. So give it another hour and I'm sure you'll feel differently about this. All right. I want to start the Rams off season conversation with something you wrote a week ago. And I think it's a very good way to think about this because before we started recording, we just of alluded to the idea of you could talk yourself into either direction here.

So these are your words. You said there are two truths. Eventually the Rams need to secure a long-term quarterback who will grow with the roster and won't prohibit them from paying their first and second-year stars when those extensions are due, plus whoever comes next to quarterback. But also, the roster is ready to win earlier than many expected. So why wouldn't they plug in their elite quarterback and make another run? And it's well done on a lot of different levels, but one of the reasons I think it's so

point in is that I, this is exactly how I feel. Like, I get both doors, and I think that's what makes this such a compelling and juicy off-season topic. It's because it's pretty easy to talk yourself into either one. I'm also very happy right now, because you read it in the exact cadence that I hoped people would read it in. Like, why wouldn't you? Like, thank you for that, first and foremost. But yeah, it's, it's so interesting because this is truly, we look at the off-season in so many ways as if-then, right? this is such an if and maybe, maybe not then. There's so much that's fluid that has been fluid about the situation since last summer when they completely left the door open and basically paved the road for this exact time

and this exact conversation. It feels kind of awkward in the sense that it doesn't seem like there's a lot of a lot of like very bad blood in that building. I don't think that the things have eroded. I feel like it was just one of those things last year where Matthews just kind of like, I probably deserve this, right? and they're like, eh, yeah, you probably do. And they figure out in a short-term way.

But now, I'm curious from his camp, and I don't know how much or how little you know concretely about this right now. But what does he actually want out of this? And where does that diverge from what the Rams are actually willing to do with him? There's two separate numbers. The Rams are on the lower end, obviously, as often the team is.

And the quarterback in camp are on the higher end, as often the player in the camp are. But I think if we go back and we look at, last year's situation where, again, none of this has been acrimonious at any point. And they, Sean McVeigh and Matthew Stafford have communicated about this pretty openly and frankly, pretty honestly, certainly a lot more honestly than Sean McVeigh has communicated with previous quarterbacks about their situations. Or even just quarterbacks in most buildings with decision makers.

I feel like there's probably more of an open line of communication. Because honestly, it's more of like a peer-to-peer relationship. Yeah, it's like, hey, bro, you're 35, I'm 38, you know, like all of that. Man, they're both older now. where does time go. So it's interesting because I think you have to go back and look at the guarantees element of it because Matthew Stafford was not making a certain amount of guaranteed money on that deal that he signed, the extension he signed after they won the Super Bowl and had outplayed

the amount of guarantees on that contract, especially, you know, heading into that season. And this past season after what he did in 2023 and lifted the roster as significantly as he did. Now, if we use that as a foundation point and say, okay, basically the Rams put a band date on this and they said, all right, well, we're not going to do a new deal and we can't figure out a new deal. And you're not reporting to training camp as early as three hours before the report date and Sean McVay is sitting down with you in like some school teacher's office down at LMU to hash out this contract as this clock is tolling out the hours and the press core is waiting outside because Sean was supposed to talk about this contract three and a half hours

ago, you know, it went down to that wire. And Sean had to have this conversation with Matthew about, hey, like, this is what we can do this year. And we're just, we're just going to have to revisit this in the upcoming season. And I think what that did was it kept the door open for Matthew to potentially go out and play his way into getting more money, which it's clear he believes he has. And then also it gave the Rams time and potential flexibility to figure out what they could do. Because the truth of the matter is, is this is a team that's got. one foot still in its Super Bowl era with Matthew Stafford specifically, not even Cooper Cup anymore, but with Matthew Stafford, and another foot, like, walking into and firmly planted in the direction

of this young roster who have a lot of extensions coming up over the next couple of years. The Stafford thing, at first glance, when we initially talked about this, remember the first discussion I had about it with Derek when we brought up the idea of potentially getting traded, I was like, why would you do that? Like, you're competitive right now. You were a drive away from the NFC championship game, but at the same time, they need to find the off ramp eventually. And the off ramp is going to be harder to take if you're borrowing from 2026 and 2027 to pay him right now. So I understand both sides of it. My main, the overarching

question I have, I get it from the ramp side where you think, okay, if we give him $50 million a year and new money on this deal and we're not paying him into his age 38, 39 season, you know, it was a little bit more erratic this year. He does have an injury history. There are dangers there. But what are the alternatives? If you're not going to play him at quarterback, what are you going to do in order to properly live in both of those worlds in the way that you probably want to. So if this doesn't happen, let's say they trade him for a second round pick, just hypothetically. What are the quarterback alternatives? And as you talk yourself through them, how appealing or disgusting do you find each individual

one? Well, that latter one is a trap question, so I will not be answering that part. But I think, Robert, it's cool because you see the Rams, and I say this all the time, and I don't mean it as an insult. they're such a hubristic team. It's so true. If they truly believe they can do anything, and then they'll go try to do that thing,

and if they fail, they have the luxury of continuity and job security, so it doesn't really matter. And sometimes they actually try that thing, and then they actually do that thing. And so that is just enough of the carrot at the end of the stick to keep trying to do the thing and to believe that you can.

And it's really interesting because if there are two scenarios, if they move on from Matthew Stafford, And I honestly, as of today, when we're sitting here recording this, I could not tell you whether he's staying or going. I know that both sides are open to working this out. And they're going to have conversations with Jimmy Sexton this week about, you know, what other teams have said about Matthew Stafford's market value and what his market really is versus maybe what he thinks it is or even vice versa. But I don't know whether he's staying or going. Do you think there's a number? Do you think there's a number that makes sense for the Rams that, like, is in the ballpark of what he would take?

I think there's a slide, like with most of the things they do, I think there's a sliding scale. I think it's like factoring in time as well as money because the alternative to not having him would be two very specific scenarios. The first is feasible. The second is illogical, but again, hubristic team. The first is a pure bridge quarterback. This is, and yes, I am serious, and I know you know that I am serious, but people sometimes will look at us like we're crazy talking about this. one of the options is Jimmy Garoppolo. And I know, and I see the face.

But here's the thing. Sean McVeigh loves Jimmy Garoppolo. I know he does. And the fact that he does is what's frightening to me. That hubristic side of this, the Jimmy Garoppolo part of it is the hubristic part of this. And that's what worries me is that I think Sean believes he can do it with Jimmy. And as an experiment,

I'm mildly interested in it. But I just don't know if I want that life for them. But I think it's because whoever it is, whether it's Jimmy Ropolo, they were, in fact, interested in Aaron Rogers prior to Matthew Stafford becoming, like, magically available after the 2021 season before the 21 season. And it was interesting, it's interesting because this would only be an avenue to somebody else. And that somebody else would be the big swing. Now, whether or not they feel like it's actually feasible, because the fact that Jimmy Sexton

is walking around, talking to other teams about Matthew Stafford's contract terms, what that really does in turn is it outlines a framework of where the quarterback market is going to be in general. Players that are deemed tradable, players that are deemed acquireable, players who we don't even maybe think are tradable or acquireable, but maybe are either now or will be ahead of next year's deadline, depending on some circumstances, scenarios, maybe next offseason. So a bridge quarterback would be the most logical and achievable thing to get them into an on-ramp, on ramp into something else. And that something else would be the next quarterback that is going to define this era of

the Rams roster as these 2023 and 2024 draft classes with 10 starters between them mature into the adult versions of the players that they are and start to enter those contract extensions. Now, the illogical and perhaps unachievable is something that they still talk about, things that they never, there is no trade scenario that they don't talk about. That's just this team. It's the nature of how they've operated. Exactly.

What is that pie in the sky option? Maybe we're not thinking about. Have you allowed yourself to, like, get to that place? Is there something crazy that you have on your mind? Yeah, crazy. Like, hell yeah, Joe Burrow. Like, it's, I mean, he's, if he's unhappy and, you know, and he loves Andrew Whitworth and Neil Allotrash repaired his leg and it's crazy.

It's illogical. It's not going to happen. But, hey, this is not the conversation that we're having. It's, you know, or this is not the conversation they're having. They don't think about those types of things. things in terms of, like I said, if then statements. This is a, you discuss every single possibility. You see what's out there. You see what's possible. And for me, that's like pie in the sky, a perfect match for Sean McVeigh. Now, is that possible or achievable? I don't know. Probably

not. At the same time, this is a team that does not believe that anything or anyone is ever off the table, ever. I mean, this is a team that's sitting there, like, again, doing the F them picks for players, courting Matthew Stafford and Cabo, like going to win a Super Bowl that year team. This is a team that truly does not believe that failure really is failing. It just is like, okay, the path to the next thing. The Jimmy Garbo part of it, I do want to have a serious discussion about it for a second and why they feel like that's potentially workable.

And I think the answer is when you look at what Jimmy has been over the last few years, when Jimmy was healthy in a pure progression offense, he was a workable quarterback in the NFL. In Vegas, they were asking him to do very, very different things. What the Rams offense is from a quarterback perspective or that tree and what the Patriots offense is from the quarterback perspective, with the ask of the position, really couldn't be more different. And so I think in their minds, Jimmy was set up to fail in Vegas.

He would be set up to succeed here. And if we put him in similar circumstances to the ones he had in San Francisco, we can get a guy who looked like he did in San Francisco. I think that's the argument as I understand it. Yeah. And also, again, knowing that you're not making a long-term commitment to the guy either, and knowing that both parties. The downside is not really there.

And both parties are aware of that. And I think, too, you saw it in the last game of the season, the Rams rested their starters. My personal conspiracy theory is that in part, like, they never need to arrest Matthew Stafford. The dude has only missed one game to injury, really, over the last two seasons. But I like to think, and this is, again, this is my opinion, listeners, that they know that him not being the one playing on the field will piss him off just enough. So he goes into sole snatching crazy-ass Stafford mode in the next game and the next game, which is what they needed and what he did. And you get a look at Jimmy. And you get a look at Jimmy. It's a win-win if you're the L.A. Rams. And so I think that you really

saw the version, and this was not the starting offensive line. Kairn Williams wasn't playing. You saw the version of Jimmy that Mike LaFleur, who called that game, has worked with, that Sean was really able to get a really good look at the functionality of what that could be. that was productive. He threw a pick, bad pick, but he also, that's the experience.

He played pretty well. He threw a bad pick, but he played pretty well. Other than that, it was fine. And the other thing is they're picturing it with probably extending

Kairn Williams early this off season. They're picturing with this overhauled offensive line that they just looked into a center who's going to be a rookie, who's like only going to be in the second season who started for them as a rookie guard play that has really been short up.

And eventually they're going to, going to need to replace both tackles, but that's the problem that comes after figuring out Matthew Stafford. So I think they're looking at this run-heavy, diverse run game that they've rebuilt over the last couple years that we've talked about. And like somebody who can do the thing, just execute the offense, make a couple of throws. And the irony is that that goes so far away from what we have seen the last three years. That's 2017. Four years with this Matthew Stafford experience with how much he has control over, with how much he does at the line of scrimmage. And it's interesting because Sean McVeigh will vacillate between these two, I think, for his entire career.

That's my opinion. Yeah. The only other quarterback option, I think, is worth mentioning just a little bit more in depth because I think it's more realistic and more reasonable for them than it would be for other teams. And you wrote about this, I think, well, is the Aaron Rogers part of this? Because I think there are some organizations, if he goes to Tennessee, you start living the Aaron Rogers life. But in L.A. with somebody like McVeigh at the center of all of it, I think that you can kind of

tamp down the things about Rogers and that experience that you don't want, and you just hope, is he the right short-term answer for us? So I think for a lot of teams, I'd be a little bit weary of it. With them, I could understand it as a potential option if they do move on from Stafford. They would not cede any roster control to him. This wouldn't be Aaron Rogers bring your friends to work day. Like, this would not be Aaron Rogers. You are doing TV all the time because, you know, this is this is a building that is insulated away from those things and, wants to be about ball and ball only and wants everybody who's in that building to show that that's what they're about. And it's part of the reason why when there have been flare-ups with

Matthew Stafford in terms of some of the publicity that surrounded his family over the last couple of years, you never see anything change on the ground floor of that building. And I think that's something that Sean McVeigh has really admired about Matthew Stafford and would demand from a player like Aaron Rogers. So Matthew Schafer is not the only trade that is on the table for this team this season, this off season, Cooper Cup likely on the way out. How do you see the past catching solutions if they move on from Cooper Cup? Do you think that creates or makes receiver like an immediate high profile need as we head into the spring? Yeah, absolutely. And I would not be surprised to see how much in-depth

research they've done on this class. I think the injury history with all of the receivers is something that people have their eyes on. But in terms of just the fits, you see receivers that would work in this offense. T. Higgins would of course work in this offense. We don't even know if that's going to be a possibility for any team, let alone the Rams. We know that Chris Godwin would work in this offense. He was Cooper Cup for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He got transitioned to that F-roll by Liam Cohen. Now, I'm not saying they're going to go out and spend in free agency.

They've tried that, and it has not worked for them. They have to over, and I truly believe they are in the process and will be, of overhauling their entire pro-personnel and free agency process, not the people, but the process of it. And so I think that this is going to be really interesting because they like to draft and play these guys young. They really like Jordan Whittington, who would slot into a little bit of the Puka Nakua of Circa. You know, when he and CUP initially were on the field together when Puka was a rookie and then they didn't get much time together to do that. But you kind of see the Cup Woods balance and those vibes that came through.

So that would be part of it. But also you just aren't going to necessarily match or replace that type of catch-and-run dynamic. offense and they need to get faster. They want to get faster. They want to have more options on the perimeter that actually work within the framework of the offense. They need to get younger. And so it's interesting because Puka, everything will still flow through him. He's the one. But at the same time, you have these question marks behind him. And I expect it to be a position they certainly hit hard in the draft and potentially look at in free agency. And the way they go and the skill set they seek out at that position, I think it'll be a cool signal about what they see from the offense. If we were going to

be this kind of run first team. We want to build it through that depending on who the quarterback is. We know what Puka's skill set is, but how they conceive of that second skill set, I'll be interested to see how that kind of carves a path for them moving forward with what the offense feels like and looks like. And you have to think, so that means, of course, you have to figure out your quarterback first and foremost before you even start to think about any of these other things. And they've catastrophes. I use that word because I'm an anxious person, but they've thought through every scenario and every possible outcome at this point. But I feel like, too, if you have a run game and one receiver who can you can deploy in any type of passing concept,

including some of the stuff that they do to activate the run service and like that 11 and a half personnel we always joke about that's not really a joke. And like if you have one player and you can also run the ball, okay, you can basically be malleable through a bridge quarterback and probably have a functionality there because you have a quarterback who just does the simple things. But you also have already built this foundation to plug in like I said along. term answer, somebody who you are truly investing in, whether that's draft capital, whether that's trade capital, whether that's financial capital, probably more likely the first two if they do go with a bridge this year. And so I think that that is where having that assuredness of Puka and that

identity is specifically, and this is part of the Cooper conversation, knowing for sure that the identity of your offense in the past game is flowing through Puka Nakua and then you are going to be a run dominant team. That I think says a lot about where they're at and why they're sort of moving into this new era without Cooper. What do you think they do at left tackle? That's so interesting because, you know, I don't expect them to get into a really competitive market with Alarick Jackson, but I think they're also curious as to what his market's going to look like. And I almost think that for me personally, it would be easier to extend him before free agency starts. But at the same time, I wonder if they think that he is going, I honestly think they want to test and see what his market is.

It's a unique year. Yeah. Because there are so many guys who I think are going to be available in that similar range. Like I think Ronnie Stanley will make more, but he's a little bit older with an injury history. Dan Moore is a workable player. Like there are more starting caliber in a pinch left tackles in this free agent market than in any that I can recently remember. And I'm sure that's throwing the numbers a little bit out of whack in terms of how they're trying to project them. Yeah.

And it also, again, it all goes. back to what kind of quarterback do you have? It's not like they're going to just patch over missing one of their starters in an Alec Jackson with just anybody, no matter who the quarterback is. But if you have a quarterback who can move a little bit more, if you have a quarterback who you're not giving everything you've got to try to protect at all costs because he's the only thing that makes your offense go. And when it goes, it really goes. You kind of can make a little bit more fluid decisions. you can also do a bridge tackle in that case if you have a bridge quarterback. I know this sounds mean, but like, what do you have to lose?

You know, you can do that sort of veteran plug-in-play situation as you ascertain and figure things out. They also are going to hate where they're picking right now at 26. Less need calls it purgatory. So I would just expect them to trade back. But what if one of these top left tackles is plug-and-play day-one starter is available? I mean, do you package things together? Is this when you start to dangle certain players? that you have on your roster.

Like, it's all, all of this ripple effect only gets figured out once you know, is it going to be Matthew Stafford or is it going to be a bridge player? It's such a fascinating divergence because if it's Stafford, my mind goes to, okay, you bring Stafford back, you trade cup, you'd have like $45-ish million in cap space at that point. Then, to me, then Ronnie Stanley is your best option. Yes. Because if you have a 31-year-old left tackle, a 38-year-old quarterback, or maximizing this window, then maybe you go receiver at 26, if there's a guy like a Luther

their burden or somebody's a little bit more dynamic. Or a real tight end. Sean McFay has been trying like hell for the last several years. That's one of those things where the fact that they didn't pull off the Bowers thing and the verse just kind of fell. It's like sometimes it works out for you. But I think... Huberistic team.

The carrot stays dangling. The last hubristic thing to me is just so funny. You mentioned Bo Limmer, the center you were alluding to. And the fact that they do this all the time where it's just like, I need this thing so bad and I need to spend money on this thing. And then as soon as that thing doesn't work, they're like, I didn't really need that thing. That's how I kind of feel about Jonah Jackson.

Yes, it drives me crazy because that's the messaging, too. It's like it goes from, you know, three years, $51 million. Like he could, he's going to be our left guard. And, you know, Steve Avula is going to work at center. And Steve Avula did fine at center. It just happens to be that, hey, you shouldn't have moved him in the first place because he's your best damn left guard. And by the way, he's cheap.

And then it's like everybody gets hurt. Jonah Jackson doesn't have a full camp, and they plug bollimer in. He's better than anyone thinks he's going to be immediately and gets better as a season progresses to the point where that Miami game, nobody had to put Jonah Jackson in. Nobody forced anyone to do that. That's them saying, but maybe, maybe it'll work for us. And now the messaging is totally shifted to where Les Sneed gets up there at the lectern and goes, it's never a bad thing to have extra offensive linemen.

And I'm like, you're not paying him. Yeah, you're paying $16 million. to a backup guard. That is a bad thing. Yes, that is actually characterized as a bad thing. But he's like, it spins. It's like, they're like, yeah, it's fine. We don't really care about that anyway. Like, it's wild.

I want to hit a couple of the defensive spots very quickly before we get out of here. As I look at the depth chart, obviously, the biggest glaring things to me are one outside cornerback spot and then whatever this team thinks about linebacker, right? Like, where they're going to get them? I'm sure they're going to spend 18 cents on them combined and we're going to live that life again. But as you're thinking about the priorities on defense, and again, the sum of the flexibility they may have more without Matthew than with, how do you think some of that gets allocated to the needs on defense? Well, I think they prefer the Hogwarts school method of bringing in new linebackers

where you receive an owl at your doorstep and like, surprise, you're going to play linebacker for the Los Angeles Rams. And they're all named like that too. Like Rose, Joe, Rose Boom is definitely, Christian Rose Boom is definitely a Harry Potter character. Yes, absolutely. And shouldn't he play for the Vikings I mean, my God, that hair. But I feel like this is, again, going to be one of those positions. They have these two picks, their very last two picks. I believe they're six rounders in the draft this year. I mean, they're probably going to double up at linebackers there.

That's just what they do. They do silly stuff like this. Have you ever heard them articulate this as to like the specific, like the specific reason they will not do this? Invest in a linebacker? It's because they believe that the way that they play their scheme and the way that teams attack them, they're okay with going very cheap at that position. and ultimately investing in a defensive tackle,

which they're going to be doing eventually with Kobe Turner, one to two outside linebacker types, which they are going to have to do. They're also going to have a second defensive tackle coming up, by the way, after Kobe and Braden Fiske. And also one premier corner, which they kind of have in Darius Williams. I wouldn't say he's like at the very top of the league,

played very well last year. They gave him decent money, not top of the league, but pretty much, pretty solid contract for where he's at. And so they're only really ever going to pay one corner they're never going to pay safeties, but they somehow find these guys. That's like Chris Shula's secret superpower because he's on the committee for that position. They somehow find these undrafted free agent and like mid-round pick safeties that play for them for four years and then walk.

And so they're never going to pay those guys. Inside linebacker, I would be shocked the day that they say, hey, we're pursuing Zach Bonn or someone like that. I would be absolutely floored. And I would say, okay, Sean is locked in a room somewhere. Like someone go, what's the safe word? someone go rescue him. It's just the scheme combination and the fact that they believe in paying premier positions on that side of the ball in a low cost overall structure because they want to

feed that money into their offense. That is something that they have gone back to over and over and over again. Omar Spates was fine last year. Got better as the year progressed. They need him to take another step forward. But I can see this position continuing to roll through the draft and undrafted free agency until the end of time. And then corner gets solved, in your opinion, how? That other outside corner. Yeah, they need to draft because in, let's see, this was 22, where they tripled up on corners. Well, Kobe Durant is fine.

He's a good player, but he has flashes, and then he'll, like, play less well, and he'll get hurt. And so he's really good, you know, taking the ball away. I think personally he's fine on the outside. I think he's pretty good in the slot. So he's maybe your only young corner that you continue to play entering his now fourth year on his contract. And so you need to go and draft at that position, and they're always going to pay at least one corner.

Other than that overhaul year of 2023, where nobody got paid except for Aaron Donald on defense, they always want to try to pay one premier corner, then one element or multiple elements of the outside and the inside of their pass rush. Because they've found this way to really nail it on this premier defensive tackle who can help with the run, but also be super dynamic against the pass. Well, they've found two of them now, and those guys are going to need to get paid. So now it even puts the onus on this team building model even more so, where the positions that they value less inside linebacker and safety

will continue to be less valued and replaced with these middle and late round picks or UDFAs. The corner thing is interesting because, again, I think it speaks to the different timelines we'd be operating on. If you're operating on the more short-term timeline, there are corners that are 27-28 that are good players in free agency. if you're not going the Stafford route and you're paying Charverius Ward $15 million a year, that makes less sense. Right.

But I wonder if corners more on the table and free agency for them if they're operating on that more short-term time long. I think it's a great point, Robert, because I think every other premier position is affected toward an increase in funding and spending and a short-term outlook and a short-term plan if you do bring Matthew Stafford back. But again, that might be another factor that, I'm not. I don't think people, we're talking about it because we're smart. But I don't think people are talking about it enough that that might be another factor in this entire situation is the divergence of these paths, how like glaring the difference in the other investments around the roster you would probably be making depending on whether or not Matthew Stafford is your quarterback.

And either one could be great. Either one, I mean, one of them looks less good for sure. Like the roster with Matthew Stafford on it, I will take that roster. Like that's the one I want. you could really make the case for either way, based on the short-term and the long-term vision, the microscope, as Les Sneed says. And when we see that play out and how that plays out is ultimately going to shape a lot about this NFL offseason.

So that's why we started here and it's always good a chat with you. Jordan, very much appreciate the time. We'll do this again very soon. Thanks, Robert. Before we get to Daniel Popper, we're going to take a quick break. Joining us now is the writer who covers the other Los Angeles team for us here at the athletic. It's our old buddy Daniel Popper.

Popper, how are you doing, man? Doing great. Excited to be here. Excited to be an indie. Excited to get some takes off on the athletic football show. We saved people from this, but you and I just spent like 15 minutes talking about electronic music before we started recording. If we were crueller people, we just would have included that on the show and made people just subject to it. Yeah, I mean, our takes on like electronic show etiquette in 2025.

I believe Bellar still has the audio, so you never know. We could include it in there and have everyone listen to me talk about Sultan and Shepard for 10 minutes. This is all I'm going to say, don't talk at the Lane H Show. Just don't talk. If you're going to talk or go away, it's like a movie. Like, I don't, just don't be talking when it's something that's supposed to be experiential. You can be, like, whispering to your partner next to you.

Like, I do that. I don't expect you to be silent for two hours. But if you're, like, full on yambering about, like, how your work week went, you should be doing that in a space that is not a shared space while I'm trying to have an experience. Yes. The album can be listened to at home on your couch, if that's your plan. And you want to talk during it.

Yeah, that's great. If you want to have like a hang with your friends and listen to music, like you can do that in your own space. And that's totally fine with me. I'm just getting old and crotchety. Speaking of getting old and crotchety, the first point on your nine point plan for the Los Angeles Chargers off season is cutting Joey Bosa to save $25 million in cap space. How do you feel about this? Like this is 100% happening in your mind? I don't know if it's 100% just because like they have so much space already that like they could hypothetically carry the cathode.

It's just hard to justify it, right? It's hard to justify it. But it's not like a situation like last year when every conversation we had in Indianapolis was like, well, they have four players with cap hits over $30 million. So something has to give. The interesting part of it is they approached Joey Bosa about a pay cut last year. And he said yes. And he took a $7 million pay cut.

So is there a scenario where the chargers go back to Joey Bosa and his camp this year and see if they can work something out where he's going to take a pay cut for a second straight year? I think that conversation could happen. But I had a conversation with Joey towards the end of the year leading into the playoff game where we kind of talked about

really how he'd grown as a human being and the effect that Khalil Mack had had on him in terms of leadership and his approach to the team and a lot of it centered around how like he just wants to win. He loves it in L.A. He has a house there.

He's getting married. He's made a lot of money. Yeah. The idea of uprooting himself for more money is not his priority at this point. And winning is, and especially winning with Khalil Mack.

The other thing he said, though, is that, like, obviously nobody wants to take a pay cut. You know, the reality of it is you want to feel like you're, you know, worth a certain amount of money. And when you acknowledge that and you take a pay cut, you're saying, hey, like, I'm not worth this anymore. I'm not worth the contract that I initially signed. And so, like, I think it will happen because they can save so much money. And he's just been... He's a $36 million cap hit this year. It's really hard to justify that amount of investment in a player giving his current production.

Yeah, and the injuries. The injuries are a huge problem. I mean, he had the torn groin that forced him to miss pretty much all of 22. He had a hamstring, a broken toe, and a foot sprain that limited him to like, you know, six, seven games in 2023. You know, this past year he's talking about like a groin injury that turns into a hip injury that leads to sciatic nerve pain. And there was a period of time where he like, all he could do was like lay on a medicine ball.

He was in so much pain. And so in the way he talks about it too, it just feels like he's a lot closer to the end. than he is to the beginning of his career. And he's very aware of that. And so it's like how motivated is he to stay in L.A.? That's going to be a question he has to ask himself. It's also like if he does get cut, he has the opportunity to go play wherever he wants.

And like that's also going to be part of the consideration. But $36 million cap it. It's the number one cap it for any edge rusher in the league. Probably close to the top for any non-quarterback in the NFL because I'm assuming even the higher paid guys, they're borrowing from those deals or they're in the first couple years of those deals where the cap it's a little bit lower.

I would almost guarantee you it's in the top 10 among almost any a player, let alone edge rushers. Yeah. So it just feels like something has to give. So the reason, I mean, that was, I shoehorn that transition in, but the whole point, the reason we're doing the charges as part of this exercise is because they have an insane amount of flexibility, especially when you contrast that to last year, right? Last year was all about how can we cut some financial corners?

How can we kind of squeeze this thing? We've joked about this a million times. Their big splashing free agency was Will Disley. Great signing, by the way. Yeah, great, great. move, a transformative type move for the Chargers. I think that this offseason will feel a lot different. Whether the Bosa thing happens or it doesn't, this is still a team that's going to have $70 to $80 million in cap space. So let's get to the other pillars of that plan for you. The

interesting thing about the Bosa part of this is that if they do move on from Bosa, Kille-Mack's also a free agent. And that's the other kind of scary thing about that. If you move on from Bosa, then you have like one reasonable edge rusher on the roster. So Mac is a free agent, but the other ones that you had as part of this, I think, are more notable. You had them signing Trey Smith. You had them signing Drew Dalman. You had them signing Baron Browning, drafting Tyler Warren, the tight end from Penn State in the first round as part of this plan. This is the best case scenario. The one thing you did not have as part of this nine point plan that I find notable here, there are no receivers mentioned as part of this nine point plan. Trey Harris. Old Miss, wide receiver. All right. Okay. Okay. So,

That, this is your strategy here. You, because that's my question, is that if they have $95 million in CAF space, where is that going to go? And in my mind, it was just they are going to go get a veteran receiver of some kind to play on the outside. The T. Higgins thing is probably a pipe dream. It's not going to exist anymore. But the Devante Adams thing is interesting to me.

Like the them as a DK Metcalf destination is potentially interesting to me. So as you're thinking about the receiver void on this team, the outside receiver board specifically. Are you leaning more toward a draft solution here, or are you open to the veteran options that might be available? I just don't love the veteran options as far as that specific role that we talked about the last time that was on the show. The one guy that's interesting to me is Devante Adams, and I mentioned him in my story today. But, you know, a lot of the guys that are available at that position that can do those things are older guys that I don't know if they necessarily, like, move the needle. The one thing that I keep coming back to, though, is I watched the film from

the playoff game against the Texans. The interior of their offensive line is a problem. It was a disaster. And it's like you have to think about it broadly, like philosophically, about how Jim Harbaugh and Joe Hortez want to build a team and how they want to play. And from the very first day that Jim Harbaugh got there on February 1st, the talk was about we want to be physically dominant.

We want to be able to go out in games and control the line of scrimmage, specifically offensively. Like we want to be able to dominate other teams and win games in that way and make every Sunday very, very difficult. Like you have to bring your lunch pail every Sunday, and you've got to be ready for a physically exhausting experience. And what happened in that game is they were the ones that were physically dominated. They just were not up for the challenge.

And frankly, like, the tackles didn't play well either. I thought Rashon had his worst game of the season. Rashon Slater, their left tackle. I thought Joel had his worst game of the season at right tackle. But the interior specifically, like I think, you know, having listened to Jim Harbaugh and Joe Ortiz talk about their philosophy, that what was put on tape in that game did not align with who they want to be offensively because they got their butts kicked, like just straight up. And so my thing I keep

coming back to is they have all of this space and they will have an opportunity to invest in the interior and build the offensive line that allows them to play the way they want to play. And so best case scenario to me is getting the best guard available and getting the best center available because they need both of those positions and you know you keep going down the list of other scenarios like there are a lot of guards available in free agency that there always are that would be really really interesting so that's really where my focus is because that's what i think they're going to prioritize so here's my only question about this zion johnson and rachan slater are entering the final years of their deals i don't know if that team's committed to resigning

zion johnson we could talk about that i assume they're committed to giving rachshantz later a big deal So he's going to be extended this offseason. Are you comfortable with the idea of you're Joe Hortez walking into 2026 with big money investments, including an extension for a left tackle, where now against the cap, you probably have one of the most expensive offensive line rooms in the entire league. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's feasible, right? Because like, you can do it. You'd just be skimping at some other positions, including receiver.

You'd be going younger. You'd have to go younger just by necessity if you did that all on the offensive line. Right, but I think it comes back to sort of how they want to play. Like, I think they really wanted to run the ball this year. Like, that was the whole vision, right? They were going to bring in Greg Roman and Andy Bischoff, their run game coordinator and tight ends coach, and they were going to build a really successful run game. They just never got there.

They had flashes, and I think they ended up finishing like 16th and EPA per play, but it was not reliable. And so, like, and Justin Herbert had injuries. But once he got healthy, like, midway through the year, like, they leaned into him. And they realized that that was the best thing that they were. had going for him. What they couldn't do is they couldn't run it and they couldn't really protect him well up the middle. And so like I think everything about how they want to play revolves around building that unit. And so, and I think like the rest of it, they, they will figure out,

you know, as far as like drafting, you know, obviously you expect continued development from Ladd-McConkie as like a real like number one option even if he's, if he's playing in the slot. But to me, it's like they got to get the offensive line figured out and in a place where they feel like they can be really dominant there so that they can play the way they want to play in terms of running the ball and also protect Justin Herbert. It's really interesting because I understand that path where you're paying for certainty along the offensive line, you're solidifying that with guys who are at least somewhat proven commodities with Allman and Smith or whoever they end up signing, whatever the names end up being.

But at the same time, I think offsetting the McConkey thing with a proven veteran receiver, I also understand that argument. But you're worried about the cliff with somebody like Devonte. So I'd just be curious, like, if they're looking at both of those scenarios, and I assume they've considered both of them, which one they think is the best for their current timeline? Because I think you could make a pretty solid argument for both of them. Yeah, absolutely. But I think it comes down to, like, okay, are they going to be a team that's going to go above and beyond monetarily to bring in a Devante Adams or an Amari Cooper or whoever it is? I'm curious what they would fetch on the open market, right?

Yeah. Well, I'd love to have that conversation. Like, is Devante going to be like a two-year 40 million, like 20 million A? the kind of guy, or is he going to be way above that? So I actually think that this is instructive. So the first place my mind goes when thinking about what his market value might be is what happened with Mike Evans last year. Mike Evans got a two-year $41 million deal from the bucks.

That seems reasonable, right? Like if that's, if we're talking about like cost of living raise based on the cap on the Mike Evans deal from last year and you give that to Devante Adams. And then you sign one interior offensive line and free agency, you draft an interior offensive lineman. I can get on board with that. I can get aboard with that as like an overall plan. You spend a third round pick on a running back.

I can get excited about that. Yeah, absolutely. What are you doing at center? That's what I mean. So if you sign one interior offensive lineman and then you draft the other one. Yeah. So, okay, I see what you're saying. I just don't know who that guy is because the center, the draft pool at center is

thin. There's Gray Zabel, the North Dakota State. That's the guy that you could maybe get in the first round. Is he going to be there at 55? And then after Gray's able, it's like a drop-off. Like there's Seth McLaughlin out of Ohio State, but he had the Achilles rupture in November. So, like, they got to figure that spot out.

Because last year they did the whole stopgap thing. Yeah. You know, they went and found, they got Bradley Bowman, you know, fluent in the scheme, played for Roman and Baltimore, you know, exactly what we're getting with Bradley Boseman. But he has, like, significant limitations in his game. Like, he's not a very good pass protector. He doesn't move very well.

But, you know, he got them through the season. They made the playoffs. They have to improve there. But they're just not that. many options, especially if Drew Dahlman ends up resigning in Atlanta. There aren't that many center options available on free agency either. It's Ryan Kelly is basically the only other guy that I think would be like a tangible upgrade over Bradley Bozeman.

So, you know, do they take Gray's Abel at 22 when they have, you know, other needs? Like they need a tight end. Like you mentioned, they need a running back. They need, you know, edge rushers, depending on what happens with Clomack and Joy Bosa. So that's the other part of this is that I wonder how they'll approach free agency just fill. because they have all this money, but they have so many holes still. And you can make an argument, if they resign some guys, Interior Defensive Line will be less of this, but Interior Defensive Line, Corner, Interior Offensive Line, Receiver,

there are enough holes where even if you have $95 million in space, and Ed Rusher would be another hole if they move on from Bosa, do you feel like you're better served to sign four or five mid-tier free agents to plug some of those holes rather than trying to shop at the top of the market with some of these guys? Right. And so that's kind of what I got into in that plan was like, I think there are a lot of these guys that you can resign and try and keep it together. And I think part of this too is that Jesse Minter is going to be able to do more with less. He already showed us he can. He proved that last year. So, and I think like it's a blessing and a curse, right? Like I think ultimately he's going to do more with less for long enough to become a head coach. But you've also proven that you can put together a fringe top 10 unit with, you know, guys that were cast aside, frankly, by. by other teams. And so, like, offensively, they were not able to do more with less. Like, they need to invest talent into that side to get to where they want to be offensively.

So, like, a lot of these guys, you just find a way to bring them back. They already did it with one of them, Elijah Molden, which I thought, like, that was a fine deal. Three years, a little bit over $18 million. What he brings is so monumental because he allows Derwin James to play closer to the line of scrimmage. I was going to ask you what the plan is now, because they didn't play. together after week 12 because when molden was healthy Gilman wasn't but the last time we saw all three of them healthy was that week 12 game I believe against the Ravens and they were on the field all three of them

essentially throughout the entire game so in your mind they're playing moldin Gilman and Derwin together when all those three guys are healthy right precisely so for the second half of the year Derwin was pretty much exclusively a slot player like he was what Kyle Hamilton was for the Ravens yeah two seasons ago and that is when he's at his best I give the staff a bunch of credit because you see Derwin James as a player and you can see all of these different things that he can do. And it's very easy to have him play six different positions in a single game. They didn't want to do that, though. That was very clear from the start and training camp.

I think that they were trying to focus on shortening and narrowing his scope because it was probably a little bit too much in the previous couple years. 100%. And part of that is Derwin saying it, you know, in the early conversations with Jesse Minter, like, this is what went wrong previously and this is what I need. And so they found that for him. And he, I mean, he was just around the football all of the time. So, like, that's one that makes a ton of sense. Like, you're not going above and beyond and signing somebody at the top of the safety market. But for three years, six million a year for Elijah Mulden, you bring him back and now you like what you can do with Darwin James. Like, the play that they got out of their interior defensive line last year was shocking to me.

I just never, I thought that was the biggest weakness on the entire defense heading into the year. It had been for like three years. And you get, like, a fringe all pro season from Puna Ford. Like, he was incredible. I've been saying this and writing it for months. I still don't think people understand how good he was and how important he was to their defense. But you get, you know, some of the best football of tier Tarts career.

You know, you have Morgan Fox. You know, you get, like, improved play from Otito Obonia. And it turns into, like, a perfectly fine interior defensive line. So it's proven, too. And you can bring all of those guys back for, you know, deals that aren't going to break the bank. You know, Khalil Mack is a guy that I think that they'll ultimately bring back because of the Joey Boas situation.

But those are a few, you know, re-signings on defense where if you keep that thing mostly together and you find a corner that can come in and replace what Christian Fulton gave you, Jesse Minter has already proven that he can turn that into a fringe top 10. Offensively, I think it has to be a different approach. I think that makes sense.

On defense, my counter to that would be, okay, I totally understand bringing back some of those guys that form what we would call like the connective tissue of the defensive roster, where your difference maker is coming from. Because I still think that even if you have Puna forward, even if you have Tire Tart, having somebody who is maybe a little bit more of a long-term disruptor option, somebody you can draft in the second round, maybe that's going to be somebody who

is a pass rushing force for you in 2027 in a way that Puna Ford and Tire Tart probably are not going to be able to. That's where my mind would be. And then can you find a difference-making corner on the outside to go along with the young guys you drafted this year? Yeah, corner is fascinating to me. I agree with you. But I think they can, they drafted a guy in the fourth round last year, Justin O'Boybe who played 26 snaps on defense. Obviously, a guy they liked just wasn't really able to get on the field. So, like, do they get more out of him next year? You know, I think, like, in our beat writer mock, for example, like, it didn't really, the board didn't unfold in an ideal way necessarily for the Chargers. But, you know, could they find a guy at 22? You know,

Derek Harmon was available at Oregon, or, you know, I ended up taking Kenneth Grant, more of a run-stuffing type guy, but, like, that could be an option. That's kind of what I mean, though, Just adding pedigree along the defensive front as you're getting older on the edge, and you have guys who are, they play a role, but they're not, when you think about the teams that mattered at the end of the season, we talked about this in the lessons from the Final Four pod that we did with Derek and Nate, those teams that were there at the end of the season, you could feel those guys, the interior players specifically.

And I think making sure you're trying to refresh that room with high predigree talent as often as you can, that should be a priority. It shouldn't be, we have two marginal starters that we feel good about that overachieve for us last year were good there. I think there would have been a time where maybe I would have thought that way, that's no longer an acceptable way to think about that room, in my opinion. I think you have to be more ambitious when it comes to that spot. Yeah, I think it's fair.

I think it's like firmly on the table. Like when I wrote about the different positions that they could take early in the draft, like in the first round, like defensive tackle is obviously going to be on the table. We'll know more like in April after free agency happens and we can see sort of what that room is. But I think part of it is like this overall thing that I was talking about. where you kind of, like, even with all this cap space, you do in the end have to pick your spots as far as where you're shopping. Especially after you paid the quarterback.

And so if you know you can get a certain level of play from this group of interior defensive linemen, then that potentially gives you the flexibility to shop at the top of the market at the places where you know you need help. Like, you know you can't even get average play from the, in this case, like the interior of the offensive line. That's a place where they like have to improve considerably because like when they got to the big moment against the Houston Texans in the. playoffs, their defense played a good game. They played more than well enough to win. The offense

is where this thing fell short, and specifically where it fell short, was their ability to win in the trenches on the interior. And that's why that feels like a priority to me. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong if things shake out a certain way, like going edge at 22, going defensive tackle at 22, you know, accessing either of those positions on the first two days of the draft. Like that all feels very feasible to me. It's just about like right now, there's so many moving parts where you're trying to prioritize exactly, you know, where you think they're thinking. And this kind of brings me back to the beginning of the conversation where there are so many different avenues and there's so much flexibility for this team this year compared to last year.

I'm curious, and you may have talked to people about this, this may just be you reading the tea leaves. How do you think they see themselves right now? Do you think that they're one aggressive, everything falls together offseason away from really competing? Do you think that's how they're conceiving of, like, what their timeline is right now? or do you think it's still a little bit more deliberate than that? Yeah, I think, like, they from the jump felt like they were going to be able to win football games last year.

Like, they, I think a lot of us looked at this team was like it's going to take at least two years for them to even get into the mix. And I think they proved a lot of people wrong with how they went about it. So you talk about the flexibility, right? I mean, they have 45 guys in the roster right now. If you don't include Cleal Mack, who's technically his contract hasn't voided yet, but he will be a free agent. they can get to 90 by training camps. They're going to add the same number of players that they currently have on the roster. And they can go in so many different directions.

I think that they feel like with that amount of flexibility, with that amount of cap space, with that many of open roster spots and what they were able to accomplish last year, like that they can put together a roster capable of really competing. And I think they can. I really think they can with the amount of cap space they have is just about what they're going to prioritize and which spots they think are most important to get. getting them to that level. I hesitate to even open up this can of worms, but I do think it's important to at least

mention this before we get out of here. We're talking all about personnel and all about personnel improvements, and I think that that is the biggest gap between them and the best teams in the league. We talked about this after they lost that game. But I'm curious, just to refresh that conversation for a second for people who may not have listened to it, what do you think of the non-personnel things that this team and this coaching staff potentially needs to have some moments of self-reflection about this spring?

Like, we need to be better at X, and it's not because we didn't have good enough players. Yeah, to me, it's like the run game. And it's just ironic considering the people that they hired. Exactly. And I think, you know, it was an experiment all season long about what they were going to be. They tried a bunch of different stuff in the run game. There's this gun team with Justin Herbert. I don't know how that works.

It all felt just like a little bit mismatched the entire season. Yeah, and I don't think they ever really discovered, like, like what they were good at in the run game. Like it was all super creative and diverse, and they were trying all this different stuff. And they were, you know, it was a lot of like pulling and really interesting,

you know, different blocking schemes. And like, I loved what I saw because like, you know, the previous three years under various offensive coordinators. Like it was just very stale and stagnant. Inside zone for 3.6 yards per carry.

Yeah, it wasn't a lot of stuff where you're watching. Like, oh, oh, that's pretty cool. You know, so it was a lot of experimenting. And I don't think they ever really found out what they should be.

Now, like, they should have just run the ball left behind Rashon Slater and Zion Johnson, like, every time until teams proved that they could stop it. I think they probably got away from that a little bit. But to me, it's about, okay, I know this is a little bit of personnel, but like get the talent that you need up front. But then more specifically, like before, you know, the end of the season until you get to week 17, like the playoff push, like figure out what exactly you are. You can have an identity in the run game so that, you know, your offensive linemen and you're, you're, you know, your offensive linemen and you're, you're, you know, your group of blockers, like, it's a firm idea, like, okay, this is who we are, as opposed to, like, being so experimental over the course of a season, just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks. Now, part of that is that Justin Herbert had all these injuries. He missed three

weeks of training camp with the planter fashion injury, and they had the high ankle sprain in week two. And so they were really scrambling for a lot of the season, especially until Justin got healthy in, like, week 10, trying to figure out, like, how to piece it together because their quarterback could barely walk. So maybe with a little bit better health, they're able to identify it. But that to me would be the one thing. Like, I was expecting the run game to be way more consistent, just considering, like, the vision and the guys that they brought in, you know, starting with Greg Roman.

So that's probably where I would look to, schematically. I think the big takeaway here is this is a team that has flexibility and urgency. And that is a big departure from where we were last year. And that is why they are a part of a exercise like this at the stage of the calendar. Daniel Popper, good to see you. Good to chat with you. and we will do it again very soon. Awesome.

Sounds good. Thanks for having me. Before we get to our conversation with DeShan Reid about the Raiders, we're going to take one more quick break. Joining us now, it is one of our wonderful Raiders writers here at The Athletic. It's Deshaun Reed. Sean, how you do, man?

Good, man. How about yourself? Back in India. Another year, another combine. That's kind of been my stock answer this morning. Monday of the Combine is a tough day. Like, even every year. So not a lot of people are here on Monday.

We're here because we have our like annual meeting. but most of the time when you get in on like Sunday in that JW where it's kind of like the nerve center of the combine, the only people who are typically around that earlier like competition committee people. And so even they aren't happy that they're there like three days before everybody else. So there's always kind of like, oh, we're in for the long haul when you're talking to people on Monday at the combine. Yeah, and I flew in on a red eye Saturday night from Vegas. So I landed feeling like that. Why did you do that to yourself? I'm a Delta loyalist, and it was the only flight that fit company policy.

So, shout's to the athletic. This is a choice. You will making a different sort of choice. You would make a different sort of choice 10 years from now. I'll just tell you that right now. I've taken one red-eye flight probably in the last like five to seven years. It was during training camp. It was from Seattle to Washington because it was the only way for me to do it with the off days.

I felt like I was going to die. I truly felt like I was not going to make it through the day. I think I was up for 36 hours by the time I went to sleep. You're young. You'll be fun. My body would just disintegrate if I did that to myself right now. The Raiders are in a fascinating place. That's not a new thing to say.

It seems like every offseason the Raiders are in kind of a fascinating place. I want to just talk to you about your initial read on the dynamics now that Tom Brady is as involved as he is. As you've tried to navigate what this offseason has been like, the hires that they've made, how would you kind of characterize how those decisions are getting made in that building kind of who's wielding the most influence. So I'd really go back to December of 2023. This was back when Mark Davis had made the decision to fire Josh McDaniels and Dave Ziegler.

You know, midway through the season, Antonio Pierce and Champ Kelly stepped in interim roles. And I sat down with Mark at the owner's meetings that December and he really expressed a desire to want somebody to fill. He was essentially describing president of football operations, somebody that wasn't a GM or head coach, but was a high-level executive that sort of supervised everything and had that deep football knowledge. that he didn't have, and he admitted that he didn't have that. They kind of had several presidents that they had cycled through, but they were more business people than they were football people. And so they didn't have somebody in that role since Al Davis died,

which is well over a decade ago. And he was speaking in general terms, but that person ended up essentially being Tom Brady. And so that process of him buying into the team because of many reasons ended up taking a long time, didn't get approved until last October in 2024. But after that happened, I talked to Mark Davis again, and he started talking about the level of influence

that Tom Brady would have. And the things that he were saying, again, was essentially president of football operations. And so while Tom Brady can't officially have that role due to the NFL rules, that's basically what he's doing, you know, that sort of high-level advisor who he's not sitting here. He's not going to be at the combine. He's not, you know. Brady was just doing combine interviews. He's not calling you up, couple of calling up your agent trying to negotiate your contract.

But when it comes to those major franchise decisions, you know, hiring a head coach, hiring a GM, coordinators, you know, which quarterback are we going to try to go get? He's a voice in a room that's sort of that, I mean, you know, who knows more football than Tom Brady's won seven Super Bowls? We know his credentials from that standpoint. That doesn't guarantee that he's going to be a great executive or a great football mind when it comes to picking personnel or picking coaches. Like we've seen, you know, Michael Jordan, for example, but we've also seen like a John

Elway type where it goes pretty well and they win a Super Bowl. Yeah. So, like, it can go either way, but. Journey West. Yeah. So we were talking a little bit before. Like, one thing that we do know is Mark Davis has. not been able to figure it out, whether that's hiring or picking players or whatever may be.

We don't know if Tom Brady's good, but at least try something different. And I think you have to give Mark Davis credit for sort of taking a step back and being willing to, like, be honest with himself about who he is and defer that power to somebody who doesn't own nearly as much as a franchise as he does. Like, imagine like somebody like, you could never think Jerry Jones would do something like that, you know, see power to somebody else. And even if it is Tom Brady, somebody that you, that anybody would respect. But he's done that. And so it's still Mark Davis's franchise want to be clear like he's the controlling owner like he makes the final say at the end of today but tom brady has a ton of influence and so it's really a revamped ownership structure that the

raiders haven't had since al davis pass i don't remember when p carroll got hired the timing of it was awkward though like we had already recorded or it happened late in the day and so we haven't even talked about this why p carroll like what do you think is the ideal we talked about in these terms on the show but you have much better insight than i do what is the ideal timeline for this like when you hire a 72-year-old head coach for a team that has $100 million in cap space and no quarterback, you're a rebuilding team. Let's be honest, like, about what you are. A 72-year-old coach with a rebuilding team, how does this marriage make sense for the Raiders

right now? Well, to be clear, they wanted Ben Johnson. Like, I'm sure you as a Bears fan. Well, guess what? You can't fucking have him. So, like, that was their guy, but they didn't get him. And so Pete Carroll was playing B. But I think the logic behind it, and it goes back to a lot of the things that they liked

than Antonio Pierce, those leadership qualities, those kind of intangibles, you know, managing a coaching staff, building a culture, those those things that he had that helped him get that full-time job, but he lacked the experience and the credentials that somebody like Pete Carroll does have. And so for them, it's almost like the best of both worlds. He has those traits. But, you know, he's a more proven head coach. He's had success, you know, whether it was in college or the NFL level, you know what

you're getting out of a Pete Carroll coach team. Now, the timeline, I do think that part is interesting because as good of the coaches, I think Pete Carroll is, this roster isn't ready to compete. I know he said at his introduction and press conference, we're going forward and every coach has to say that. But look at this roster, like, you can literally make a case for them drafting a first round player at any position besides titan.

Like, they have enough tight-ins. Like, no more of those. Like, Brock Powers was a surprise last year. It worked out, but like any other position they need help at, including quarterback, which is the most important one. And so it's just no way you're going to solve all that in one-off season. I know we've seen teams like the Washington commanders make those big one-year leaps to Denver Broncos.

was another team last year, but this is going to take at least a couple of years to get up and going. But I do think that they think they can get the roster to a place to be able to compete within a couple years.

You know, if you, they have a ton of draft capital starting with the six overall pick. They have the second most cast space in the league, I think somewhere around $100 million in cast space after this new, the new cap figure comes down. And so they can make a lot of moves

to improve the roster, even if they don't have a long-term solution at quarterback, whether it's, you know, there's really not that great of a veteran option out there in the draft, they might as not have an opportunity to get a guy. But if you build up the rest of the roster

and then make the move to get your guy next year, you could be competing as soon as 2026. And I think even though Pete Carroll, he's going to be 74 at the starting next season, he is older, he's not going to be doing this for 10 more years, like just doing the math. But if you can have him a team that's ready to go by 2026, I think that's the timeline that makes sense.

So this was kind of my bigger existential question about them. What do they want out of this off season? And I know it's early enough. I'm sure you've had one conversation with John Spitech at this point. It's pretty early to be making those sorts of predictions. But if you were kind of laying out, all right, this is what we're trying to accomplish this spring with that draft capital and with this $100 million. Walk me through what a very good outcome looks like for the Raiders brass as they see it. I think more so than because quarterback, we'll talk about that in a second.

Yeah, this is more outside of that. I just think you need to build up the foundation of the roster. Like outside of Max Crosby and Brock Bowers, that's pretty much it in terms of marquee names that are on this team. Like even a bunch of the interesting guys that they had on defense last year, the last couple years. They're all free agents. Don't know if those guys are going to be back or not, you know. So I think they don't really have a team right now in a way. And so John Spitech, you know, he's accomplished, you know, executive during his time with the Bucks, all those teams that they've had a ton of success thing.

They make the playoffs six times in a row. That team is built through the trenches. And I think that's how it's going to operate here. And the Raiders, you know, they've had more success on the defense line and the offense line, but I think they could still use help on both this off season. And so I think it starts there, you know, and just kind of building up the rest of the roster because they need help pretty much everywhere. They're kind of starting from scratch almost. And so that's something that you can make a big dent in it in the offseason, especially them having as many resources that they have. And also, I think, a factor that Raiders fans would appreciate is their cash situation is, like, substantially different than it once was.

Like, Cap Space is a different thing from cash. And, like, the Raiders in the past, they've been hamstrung by their ability to do large signing bonuses, by adding void years, by, converting, you know, salary cap to cash, to create cap space. They haven't been able to do those things. They can now, especially with this. In addition to Tom Brady, they brought in some new businessmen in an ownership group. They're making a lot of more money in Vegas than they were in Oakland. And so they can be really aggressive in free agents.

Like last year, we saw they made the big deal to sign Christian Wilkins, gave them $80 million guarantee. Like, they can do stuff like that now. And I think that fundamentally changes how they can operate. And so they can be really aggressive this off season with building up the rest of the team. And I think that's what they plan to do. I'm curious how much urgency we see with certain positions. groups because the offensive line is the interesting one to me.

When I look at that offensive line and I think about what they looked like in the back half of the season and Meredith was playing when I was watching them in this moment. He's an exclusive rights free agent, right? I think he's restricted in some sense. Yes, but they can match and whatever, but he is a free agent. But even if you're talking about the guys who are currently on the roster, and I'm curious what you think about this, if we go left to right, and this is way too granular for a national football podcast, but we're doing it anyway, if we go Colton Miller, Jackson Powers, Johnson,

Andre James, who they don't save any money if they cut him this offseason. So they've essentially committed to him. Dylan Parham at right guard, DJ Glaze at right tackle. I understand that's not good offensive line. But if you are a rebuilding team and if it's all about finding pillars at the right price points, aren't you incentivized to do everything you can to see what you have in Parham and Glaze before you replace them with veteran options because you're not going anywhere anyway? Like my thought is why not just roll that offensive line back?

because I think finding starters with you drafted in the third round is more valuable to you than signing Will Fries in free agency and jumping ahead of that timeline. I think the fulcrum there is what do they want Jackson Powers Johnson to be? If he's the center of the right.

I think the last regime their plan was ultimately for him to move the center and that Andre James, he fell out of the rotation towards the end of the last season. He ended up coming back in towards the end. But if Jackson Powers Johnson is going to be your center, then I think you need a guard. That I completely can get on board with. And so I think they'll say it's

a Trace Smith, for example, from the Chiefs. If you can get a guy like that, like a plus plus guard, I think you do that still because that just solidifies the unit. And you can still let a guy like Jackson Powers Johnson, DJ Glaze, continue to develop and grow and potentially become a better player down the line. But that makes your group overall. I get that. The James thing is just that they don't save any money if they move on from him.

So it's like you're incentivized to see if you can make it work for a year. But that version of it, I think that makes sense. And then you can look at the defensive line for maybe a larger investment, whether that's early in the draft or some other big ticket item. free agency. Yeah, and so I think, you know, even with James, like, even if they don't save money, like, they have so much cap space. And this isn't a good free agency class by most people's evaluation.

So you can only sign so many guys with that $100 million. And so if you got to eat a little bit of money, they can free up space, like Gardner, Menshew, they can probably cut him and save a few million dollars in space. So you can balance that out to where, like, if you think Jackson Powers Johnson is best at center and he's your center of future, put him there and then go get a guard. And so I think, I don't know if that's how John Spitech feels. I'm just going off looking at it, though, but I think that makes sense. Yes, just looking at just the contours of the position group and like what they could potentially do.

I just like the idea of giving every opportunity the third round guy at right tackle because if he becomes a starter for you, the savings you get from something like that is worth pursuing when you're a team at the stage that the Raiders are right now. The defense is fascinating to me because we mentioned this. All of the guys over there are free agents, right? And so what of those guys, whether it's Merrig, Marcus Epps, Malcolm Coons, Robert Spillane, all these guys who are hitting free agency. who do you think is most reasonable for them to keep and who do you think they might be moving on from? Robert Spillane seems like the most reasonable. The market for inside linebackers just isn't too crazy. I think he's a guy that he's played at a really high level the last two years.

They brought back Patrick Graham as defense coordinator. They brought back a few position coaches on that side of the ball. He's the captain of the defense, not in the sense of calling plays and being the green. Obviously, Max Crosby's the leader of the defense. But I think he's such an important piece of what they're doing on that side of the ball. He's not going to cost that much money. I just think he's probably the most likely to be back. I think Trayvon.

I like him. Yeah. He's just a good player. I like him. He does a little bit. I just like, it just feels like the type of guy that I would want on my defense.

I love the Patrick Graham thing. I think that the coordinators are in general. Like, having Chip Kelly and Patrick Graham as part of the Pete Carroll thing, if I were a Raiders fan, I would be excited about this. Like, there are just elements of it

where I can absolutely get behind them in terms of the decisions they've already made before we even start talking about the person of them. Yeah. And I think the biggest one that they'd be worried about losing is going to be Trayvon Merrick. I think he really had a breakout season this past year at safety.

and lined up all over the field, made a lot of plays. Guys like him typically get paid big money. I don't know if they're willing to go there to bring him back, but they did. They made a smaller move. They re-signed Isaiah Palomile to a two-year, $8.5 million deal today, and that's, you know, round starter caliber money.

So I think Marcus Epps will probably not be back for them. But Trayvon Merrick, I think he's been a big difference maker for them, and he's a guy that he's going to get a lot of interest from other teams as well. And, like, you know, I'm sure Spillane will get some interest, but not in the same way. And so that's kind of the big question mark is, are they going to be willing to pay top tier safety money for Trayvon America. And I think probably a guy that's going to fly under the radar just because he didn't

play at all this year. Malcolm Coont's defensive end who he can play. He was playing his ass off in 2023. He can play. I think he had like eight sacks and eight games or something under Patrick Graham and really got unlocked playing across from Max Crosby. Suffered a torn ACL last season, unfortunately before the season started, didn't play at all. So we'll see what his market is, but he's a young pass rusher who has some juice to him. Typically those guys get paid. So I don't know if they can get him on like a one-year deal or if they're going to have to make a bigger commitment, but I think he's kind of a guy that's overlooked just because we didn't see him this past year, but it's really intriguing to see if they bring him back or not.

Do you think, you mentioned Trey Smith, do you feel like with that financial flexibility that they have? Do you think they'll be overly aggressive at the top of the market, or do you think that's putting the cart before the horse a little bit, considering what their timeline probably looks like? I think it all starts with what is your plan at quarterback exactly how eager. We were about to get there. I think that starts it. Like, are you going to do something crazy?

like go give Sam Darnold $40 million a year? If you're going to do that, then I think you're less aggressive with a Trey Smith type. But if you're more patient with it, we're going to sign a stop-dap type of guy or we're going to try to get our answer,

or maybe, you know, take a flower on a guy on day two in a draft or something like that. Then I think they're going to be pretty aggressive because they have so much cash. Yeah, yeah. And it's not like they have, it's not like a team that they have a bunch of guys

in year three who are about to get off the rookie deals and they're going to have to pay them to these huge extensions. Like the Raiders don't have any, and the players that they do have, they either already paid or don't have to pay for a while. Yes, five years from now with ours, yeah. Yeah, so it's like, why not?

You know, if you think you can get a Tray Smith or one of you, or a high-end, DJ Reed, a high-end cornerback, like, go for it. That was the other position I was going to ask you about. You think corners the other, like that, to me feels like a priority. For me, yeah, like they have some guy, like Jacorian Bennett. I thought he had a nice season last year before he got hurt. Nate Hobbs, who's also hitting free agency. He's a nice nickel-back player.

Jack Jones has shown some flashes in the past, but he hasn't been consistent yet. But I think that's just a position where it's a premium spot. It makes sense. I think they're pretty good on defense line. You got Christian Wilkins, you got Max Crosby, you got some guys like Malcolm Cunce that you can bring back. So the next place you go is cornerback. And I don't think they have like a solid number one guy that you know is going to be a guy moving forward. And so if there's a high-end free agent, like I said, DJ Re, I think it's probably the top option on the market,

but also there's Trevarious Ward and others out there who they could potentially try to go get. And again, it's a thin free agency class. So if you want to get a guy that really is going to make a big impact and you spend in big money on guys, I think that guard spot and the cornerback are probably the two that I would look at. What do you think is the most reasonable path forward at quarterback? Because the idea of them like trading for Matthew Stafford, given the rest of the roster, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like you're getting two years out of 37-year-old Matthew Stafford, given all the other holes that you have.

I understand why that's attractive, but I just don't know how it jives with everything else going on with the roster currently. It doesn't think it makes sense. They're not close enough to competing, like in general, but especially not in the AFC West, like with the Chiefs. And we've seen the leaps that the Chargers and the Broncos have made. And all three of those teams have their long-term answer at court. quarterback you don't you're trying to find it i get there's urgency there but it just feels like are you really winning a playoff game with matthew stafford if he goes to the raiders like i don't think so sam darnald same thing and so i think the most realistic path is you sign a stopgap type

of option you know there's some guys out there to have connections to p carroll russell wilson for example um a guy that maybe fits more of the mold of chip kelly's offense you know it usually thrives the best when there's a mobile guy maybe you take a flyer on a justin fields on a one-year deal somebody like that and then you see what happens in the draft. Like, Shadir Sanders could fall to six. He might just be sitting there waiting on you. Or maybe it's Will Howard in the third round who played for Chip Kelly at Ohio State.

I think some combination of that, you know, signing a stopgap type of guy and then seeing what you can do in the draft because they are kind of at the whim of what other teams do ahead of them or if they maybe can trade up from six. I think that's more realistic than them going out and giving Sam Donald $45 million a year. That makes perfect sense to me. And I think it'll just depend on what aisle you're shopping in with a stopgap quarterback. Right. you can probably get fields on the one year $10 million,

Sam Donald reclamation deal. Wilson's probably going to be more than that. What Wilson's market looks like is fascinating to me. Because I think that you look at other quarterbacks who've signed in their mid-30s recently as free agents. Both cousins and Derek Carr, in my opinion, had better claims to bigger deals in the moment than Wilson does. So is it going to be like a inflation bumped up version of the Jimmy Garoppolo

contract where it's like $22 million a year. I guess I don't think he's like the $40 million a year quarterback, but he played well in a flash year. He's probably not the reclamation one year stopgap quarterback either. So where that settles, there's really no contract in the NFL right now that feels analogous to the one that you would give Russell Wilson free agency. I just don't know. Yeah.

I guess the closest thing is maybe like what Gino Smith and Baker Mayfield. So those are $33 million. That's like a $30-ish million a year deal. But Baker is 28 years old. Gino is probably the best comparison. I think Gino is better than Russell Wilson right now. So I just don't know. And if you're the Raiders specifically, and you just felt, and obviously it's a different

regime, everything. But that aisle where you're paying $20 million to a guy you don't really like, I've never really understood that. And it kind of feels like that would be Russell Wilson this year for this team specifically. Yeah. And I think with the Raiders, while it's a new regime, like they literally have done that the last couple of years. You mentioned Jimmy Groplo.

They signed them to, you know, three years, 70 million. dollar deal that went about as terrible as it could and then it wasn't that much money but they signed garden men shoot to a two year 25 million dollar deal he was terrible last year like they've done this a couple times recently whereas like if i'm mark davis or tom brady i don't really want to do that again you know like give me the one year stopgap guy and let's see what we can do in the draft but like this whole you know mid tier veteran mid tier veteran midterm veteran at some point you got to get off at that hamster wheel i tend to agree with that and so i think trying to figure out how you can find a guy in the draft and where you find him if it is shardour sanders at six or if you want to go the

third round pick route because let's just take a flyer. If it fails, we can be a backup. Let's see what we get with Will Howard by the end of the year. I'll be fascinated to see which route they take because I think the route that they take is going to be our biggest indication of what they see of themselves. If there's a level of aggressiveness, a quarterback, does it send a signal about how quickly they want this to all come together? It's just such a blank slate right now that like I'm ready to just gobble up every morsel of information that we get because it's going to be the only sign we have from them about what they expect from this offseason and from themselves. Yeah, I agree.

It's like, you know, I think John Spitech and Pete Carroll could, like, couldn't be further apart in terms like the timelines. Like John Spitech, I think he's in his mid-40s, his first-time GM type of guy. Like, he doesn't really have a reason to be like, yeah, we have to do it right now this year. Whereas Pete Carroll, like I said, he's 74. So, like, he's not trying to do, like, a long term. I was saying he was 72.

No, my God. Yes, he's maybe 74 at the start of next season. Like, his oldest coach in NFL history. The problem is Pete looks better than me. Yeah. So that's why it's hard to figure out where he's landing here. I need Pete's, like, skincare routine. Like, the boisterizing he has to do is remarkable.

Yeah, so I think, like, if it is, let's say if Matthew Stafford is available, which I don't really know if the Rams are really going to trade Matthew Stafford, but if they do, I think you at least have to make a call. Like, I know I said, I don't think they're going to, like, make a playoff run with him, but you at least have to check on an option like that. I think he's a certain caliber, like a definitive top 10 guy, you at least see if that's possible. But if it's not that type of guy, like, I don't see them committing a large amount of money to just a middle-tier guy just to say that they're more competitive this season.

Like, I think Pete Carroll is patient enough and has enough leeway to push it to 2026 when it comes to finding a long-term answer to a quarterback. And if they build up the rest of the roster, like, they can take a step forward. They only won four games last year. And I know they want to get back into playoffs. It's been a long time. And when a play-off game has been, you know, over 20 years at this point since that's happened.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with building up the rest of the roster and kind of, I know that everybody trying to copy the Lions and that may not be realistic. but that first year where they kind of showed some problems, like they didn't make the playoffs. They were just a fiery competitive team. That's all it matters. And then they took that big leap. But like there's nothing wrong with a two or three year plan.

It doesn't have to be this long four or five year rebuild. And so I think that's more of the timeline that the Raiders are. Talked about this on a show we did earlier this week. But what does a positive first year look like for a new regime? And to me, it's like very simple stuff. Are you playing a certain way? Do you have an identity? Do you have a play style?

Are guys playing hard? Are they invested? And then on the offense specifically, do you have a coordinator that's maximizing the potential of that side of the ball? And that's why I think Chippewkelly is so fascinating because a lot of these offensive coordinators get hired with CEO type head coaches. You're worried, is that guy going to get hired away? Do we have to replace him if he does a good job with our young quarterback?

I don't think Chip Kelly's getting an NFL head coaching job anytime soon. So him, he feels kind of similar to Todd Munkin to me where if you can bring in these guys who are a little bit deep into their careers and they hit as offensive coordinators, it's less of a risky bet than it is by hiring the next. 37-year-old dude who's going to get hired away in a year. Yeah, and he's a known commodity. Like, you know what you're going to get out of Chip Kelly? And for all his failings as a head coach in the NFL, which they were pretty disastrous

there at the end, especially with the 49ers, because offenses were pretty good. You know, they tended to get figured out towards the back half of the season, and they did a little bit too much with the tempo. But, you know, you look at those Eagles teams. Like, they were one of the better offenses in the league during that three-year-year-run. And he's also evolved a lot. I think we've seen as a play caller, like me and Ted Wend did a story about it a couple weeks ago, but like his Ohio State

offense that he just ran was wildly different than those high-flying Oregon offenses that he ran to pass. There's a lot more 12 personnel. They were way fewer plays. I think they were like 120th in plays per game last season or something like that. So he's shown the ability to be adaptable

and flexible, and I think it also fits in particular with a team like the Raiders that has a star tight end like Brock Bowers and another good one in Michael Mayor, and that's probably the style of offense that they need to play with the way their team is built. And so I think, you know, it's a good reason. He doesn't have to do all the head coach stuff. He's not picking your players.

He's not the leader to instilling the culture. You literally just need him to just be an offensive coordinator. And again, I get why some people are kind of skeptical about, oh, can Chip Kelly do at the NFL level? But I agree with you. I think it just makes sense for where they are in the type of team that they are. And like you said, they don't have to really worry about him getting poached. Like, you know, if the offense is top 15 this year, I don't think that's going to get Chip Kelly a head coaching job. You can keep him have that continuity to next year when you're really going for it and then try to compete and make a playoff run.

Because I think more about it. Using the sixth overall pick on like some sort of high value position, just trying to find a difference maker at that spot based on where you are, signing Justin Fields to a one year, $11 million deal, throw a couple void years on there, spread it out, essentially pay him nothing against the cap, take a mid-round pick flyer, your backup, if nothing else. If you eventually want to play the guy and see what you have,

that to me feels like the correct sequencing of stuff and allocation toward the court. Like, how do you feel about this? I think that makes sense. I agree with you. That's probably the same thing that I would do. I think the goal on offense this year, and it's a low bar, but it's just competency.

And they haven't had that since they let Derek Carr walk away. And I'm sure Saints fans aren't the highs on Derek Carr right now. And he's sort of a polarizing player. This offense has been terrible since he's left. And that just goes to show you how pivotal that quarterback position is. But I think they've struggled just from Josh McDaniels didn't do a good job. Colin plays. Obviously, Lou Geese didn't last year either.

And his non-game run as offensive coordinator, and it didn't really get much better under Scott Turner from there. But they haven't been competent on offense since, you know, it's been two or three years now. And so if they're just solid on that side of the ball, I think it's a success this year. You know, you don't have to have, you know, obviously it's great if you have a top five offense and everything is great. But I don't think that needs to happen this year for it to be a success in hiring Chip Kelly in this first year under the P. Carroll regime. I'll say this.

We're sitting here on February 24th. I am much, much more interested in the 2025 Las Vegas Raiders that I was in the 2024-Las Vegas Raiders. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah, me and you both. I think we caught up at training camp at some point in Costa Mesa. before the season started last year. And I looked at you and I told you, like, this is, this office is not going to. I mean, it was just one of those things where I was just like, you know, I'm not wishing ill

on anybody. There's zero chance. Any of this works. That was my thought going into the season. And that's exactly how it played out. Again, I think there are arguments against some of the bets that they've made, 74-year-old head coach and rebuilding team. But I think at least in the short-term competency and just looking like an adult NFL franchise,

I think is potentially in the cards for the first time in a little while here. Yeah. And that's a huge step for a franchise that's been as dysfunctional as the Raiders. Like we talked about, you know, it's that time of year for the Combine. It's also been that time of year for the Raiders having a new regime. Like, they've had three different regime changes in three calendar years. Like, that's just an insane level of turnover. Never a dull moment for you.

Never a boring day on the Raiders beat. DeShan Reid, always great to chat with you, sir. Really appreciate the time. It's good to see you in person. Yes, sir. Thanks for having. All right, guys. That's all we got for today.

Thank you so much to Jordan. Thank you so much to Daniel. Thank you so much to DeShan for all of their time. really appreciate you guys listening. We're going to be doing this again two more times over the rest of this week. We're going to have two more of these shows chatting with a bunch of our other beatwriters. I want to put this on your guys' radar just so you're not like, why don't you talk about this team?

There are a set of teams that I feel like deserve a slightly different treatment than this. And there are teams that I feel like are kind of on the cost. Teams that were contenders last year. What do they need to do to get over the hump? We're going to be doing a series of those conversations attached to shows next week. So if you're a Ravens fan, if you're a Lions fan, if you're a Bill's fan, we are going to hit those teams just not in this series of conversations. They're interesting.

They're just interesting in a slightly different way. So be patient. That is coming. For now, that's all we got for today. Really appreciate you guys listening. We will talk to you tomorrow.