The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The nitty-gritty of quarterback development with The QB School's J.T. O'Sullivan

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Why do some quarterbacks develop where others see their growth stunted? What are the best ways to build around a potential franchise QB, and who's doing a great job of it right now? Former NFL quarterback J.T. O'Sullivan joins Robert Mays on this episode of The Athletic Football Show to answer those questions and more.Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube0:30 Justin Fields big night on MNF21:57 The most important elements of QB development28:30 Offensive weapons vs. offensive line32:30 What we've seen from Jalen Hurts and the Eagles35:45 The best offensive architecture44:00 Teams that are failing their QBs46:28 The Ravens offense in 2022 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is Wednesday, October 26th. Joining us today, someone, I can't believe it's been so long, and we have not had him on the show yet. I'm thrilled to have him today. From the QB school, JT. O'Sullivan, JT, thank you very, very much for taking the time

to do this. Robert, my man, I'm fired up for this one. Talk a little quarterbacking. A lot of quarterback talk today. So we're going to talk about a lot of guys that have had. particularly noteworthy seasons. But the timing on this was great. The universe did us a favor.

The Bears played last night. Justin Fields had, I don't know, arguably his best game as a pro. And inarguably, I think the most interesting game plan that we've seen from the Bears offensive coaching staff. And I know that you've watched Fields with a particular curiosity since he came into the league. I think you're a fan of a lot of the stuff he's able to do. So I wanted to start with what that looked like last night.

And when I was watching your video today about. the game, which people should go check out the QB school YouTube channel if they have not. Go sign up for the Patreon if you have not. It's really some of the best analysis you can get. So you're talking about that game plan. There was almost like a sense of relief in your voice watching some of the stuff that they were doing last night with him in the run game. Well, I, first of all, I appreciate the kind words.

The other thing, you can't see me, but I have this huge grin on my face because you're totally right. I think for a lot of people that have been fans of Justin Feet, fields and probably root for the bears now on some level. I think we've all just kind of been sitting in this weird quagmire of what are they doing and why aren't they using this unique dynamic skill set in a way that we see other people thrive in. And it's as simple as saying on one level, hey, we need design quarterback runs.

And really since the beginning, I think a lot, number of people have been calling for it and just hasn't happened up until yesterday. night, Monday night football. And to see it and to see not just like the zone read ish stuff, but to see comprehensive runs like gap runs. We're pulling people. We're getting to the edge. It's a full catalog of quarterback runs coupled with some play actions to move the launch point. And all of a sudden, you're like, wow, this is functional at a really high level. And God forbid they ever add some talent around him to help be explosive. And it would really be special. And I think we could start to see the bones of what it could be in that performance in

Foxborough. So we did a show right after the Thursday night game against Washington. And I'm from Chicago. Everyone knows that I grew up a Bears fan. I watched the Bears with a particular interest. And I was kind of crustfall in watching that game because when you watch it, in my mind, it's like, if they keep going down this track, I think this leads to like a very dark place where the bad habits that he has continued to compound and get even worse because this situation is so untenable. And then you watch what happened on Monday night. It's like, all right, if this is going to be the structure. The term you use all the time, I think, is particularly interesting is offensive architecture.

If this is going to be the offensive architecture, then maybe we can mitigate some of the talent efficiencies, get through this season where positive progress continues to be made, and then next off season, let's see what happens. And if last night is any indication, that timeline, that route is still on the table. And that is music to my ears and I think to every single Bears fan out there. Yeah. And I think you're right on there. I think it's such an NFL reaction.

And I find myself doing it all the time too, where it's you have to, in essence, hold your own hand and not overreact to even to great performances like what the Bears did on the road to maybe some issues before that. to say, hey, we have to have the capacity to have a long-term vision for what we're trying to do here. Now, the flip side of what the bears are doing, and I think it's worth at least acknowledging, is it's hard to run the quarterback in between the tackles consistently. And so, yeah, you've got to pick your time and places, and I think that they did in this game as a decent example as far as maybe the red area or some really crucial third downs to be able to run him. And that's what I think we, everybody who loves fields wants to see more of.

It's just being really smart about it, but you have to take advantage of that skill set. And I think you can build on it and you can build on it and make it really explosive because there are things that he does that other elite athletes do from the position. But there are other things that he does that not everybody else does. He can really, really throw the ball down the field. And I think we've seen it now at multiple different levels and layers. And so once you kind of construct that unique element of what Justin Fields can do with what everybody else is doing in the run game, then I think you see it really take off. I thought the timing of it was really interesting too. You know, last season, I think there was so much talk about what the Eagles did in that mini buy.

And theirs came, I think, four games into the season. So it was very early and they could kind of pivot with their offensive game plan was on the dime. And, you know, talking to those guys there, whether it's Siriani or Shane Steichen, that's when they did it. After that game on Thursday against the box, they were like, we can't keep going like this. Like, this just isn't working. We need to lean into what we're doing well. And then they make this 180 degree turn where they become the most run heavy team in the league and they build an offense around their quarterback that when you watch it, you're like,

all right, this makes sense. Like, it has limitations, but this makes sense. And then the bears have that same situation after six weeks where they have this mini biweek. They have 11 days. And clearly, that staff got together and we're like, all right, this is the time to implement some of this stuff because what we're doing right now, clearly isn't working. So you could kind of give them shit for it taking six weeks into the

year, but they also, I think, deserve a little bit of credit for making it happen now when they did. And that makes a lot of sense. And I think they can have it both ways, too. I think you can see the in-season adjustments that come from anyone, but to see it transpire like that on kind of that national stage versus that opponent on the road was really cool to see. I think it will be fun to see what it looks like and evolves going forward. Because I still, I still. think that there are certain gaps that they haven't been able to take advantage of what fields really can do well throw in the ball that I think compared to Hertz is just a one-off, you know, is probably a much better passer driving the ball down the field. And so what that

looks like as far as a unique thing, the other thing I would, I would mention about that is for whatever reason. And this kind of a, I don't love these generalizations, blanket statements about the league, but the league for whatever reason feels like they're, just a little bit behind the times as far as what it looks like to run the quarterback. When you look at every other level of ball, and I know that there's a lot of investment in those quarterbacks and rightfully so being careful with what they are and how they get hit. But the level of athlete playing quarterback nowadays,

when they're the best athlete on the field, you have to be able to run them. You just have to. It changes the math across the board. And so being smart about what that looks like. If you're not doing that, I think you're leaving a tremendous amount of yardage on the field. And I would argue that it actually does show an investment in the quarterback to build this sort of game plan around them because you're thinking about what is the infrastructure we can build to speed up or accelerate or harness the long-term development of adjusting Fields.

Even if we're running him a little bit more and the chances of him getting hurt are a little bit higher, if this is whatever we have to build around him to eventually get to the player that he can be, that is an investment in your quarterback. So I think that's the viewpoint that I would take on it more than anything else. Yeah, I think it's just worth acknowledging that there's a shadow to this side of what the offense has evolved to across a lot of levels of football. And so Trey Lance is a perfect example. Yeah. You know, he's a guy who I would want to see very similar stuff to what to Chicago Bears. And I think Justin Fields can do really well with what Trey Lance and his opportunity was cut short because of injury running the rock. And so that's part of it.

And that's probably part of, you know, some of the lessons and kind of the. bad luck that can go into some of this quarterback development. Obviously, the run game jumps out from last night, but there were a couple of throws I wanted to talk about that you pointed out that those are the moments. I can really buy this. On the first drive, he had a completion in to kill Harry on an inbreaker where he goes from one to two very quickly and just rips the ball over the middle of the field. And those are the moments when I'm watching that happen and him move through that

progression in that process so quickly where that's when I start to get really excited because when I'm watching him play and you allude to this and I think we've talked about this ad nauseum, sometimes the mechanism and the timing can be so slow that it gets frustrating. So when he's doing that, it's like, all right, this is cooking with gas. Like this is when I start to get really excited about what he could ultimately be if this sort of stuff starts to happen consistently. I think that's a good example from what you're talking about. I would probably push back and say, you know, you probably know he could do that. You know, I think that's there's a lot of narrative or for whatever reason that he can't do that. I think he's proven that

over the course of his playing career at a really high level of college football and when he gets time in the league, which is tough with that line sometimes to say, yeah, I can go one, two, three. I really can. Now, it doesn't look quick from the pocket because he is a little long or he is a little deliberate in some of his motion and movement, but he can go one, two, three. And he's proven to me now multiple times. I mean, I don't really know where it can. He's. He's, I don't really know where it came from to start with, but it certainly has lingered with him that it's a one, one and done thing or one and scramble, one and run. And I think when you turn on the film, that's just not the case because there were even, that's a really nice one and that guy's wide open over the

middle. But there are plays later in that game, really probably more important plays, third downs where he goes one, two, three all the way across the field, full field reads, that stuff that you don't see, you know, there's stories about Tom Brady, not having a lot of full field reads in game plans for a long time because it's just really hard to do it. He's doing it right now. So the one, the negative example that you threw out that, again, is just one of those moments. It's like, ah, like that that's where it gets frustrating is that there was a slant flat to the bottom of the screen from the plus 35 at one point where he takes a sack. And he was kind of fighting for the laces a little bit and his eyes were down the middle of the field and he just doesn't take it

when it's there. Is that something where that's easy for you to reconcile with over time, with more time with more reps with more help that sort of stuff can get phased out of who he is as a quarterback i think that there's certainly a large opportunity for that to be phased out i think you touched on a number of different variables that went into probably what went wrong on that play you know i think you have to mention that it looked foggy misty wet-ish you know he certainly had a couple earlier throws that were gripp it and rip it no laces that went like sliders you know where you catch that wet thumb and that ball just is a you know a sinker And so from that standpoint, I could see maybe wanting to get on to hold on to it and find the laces.

But you're right. The discipline with his eyes to not be where they're supposed to be on that play. The footwork, again, right, that's a good example for me of it's not, I don't think it's, it's just kind of like cavalier. It's not, there's the suddenness that you know he has and you can see in his change of direction when he runs and explosiveness isn't in his quarterback footwork. So when you could get that pocket footwork to be that sudden and be long. lined up ready to go. I think that's an easy completion. And then you don't need the miracle

scramble after that. You can save that and that can be the touchdown play after. And so, yeah, those plays are frustrating. And I think, you know, especially when you're getting hit and taking sacks, it's, it's all bad. For me, it's, we talked about this a little bit this morning when we were just talking about other stuff, me and Nate, the pie chart of good and bad, like the negatives and the positives. My hope was that this season, those catastrophic plays last year in all of the sacks and all of those negative moments, that we slide toward a ratio that those are diminished and you start to see more positive plays. And that's kind of what last night felt like. It's like, all right.

Like there are still some negative plays. There are going to be some negative plays. But as long as the ratio of positive and negative starts to change and drift in the other direction, then you can start buying which way this is headed. And that's kind of how I felt after last night. Yeah, I think that's a fair way to say it. I might even add a layer in there with some of those negative plays, you know, I think that they can even be buffered in how you categorize them. Like some of the times when he's loose with the ball, you know, some it's going to happen like the ball's going to hit your knee when you're running sometimes. But some of those sacks that you are decision making sacks that are sacks that are sex that you could help with your footwork, with your processing those types of things.

Those are the ones that I want to see get rid of. Other ones, you know, are when you're outside the pocket, you know, the, or a good example is, the third down where they fumbled the snap. Okay, they third down. They fumble the snap. He scrambles for our first down. Well, that could, for most quarterbacks in the league, that is a bad, bad play. And you're jumping on that and it's over. But he's got the capacity to turn that bad play. He doesn't make it a disaster. He doesn't get outside the pocket, make a bad decision. He just says, the hell with it. I'll get it myself. And that, to me, are those of the plays where you start

seeing the growth. Like, okay, we're not going to panic. We're just going to get what's there. I get a first down. We keep on going. his explosiveness in terms of how vertical he can get as a runner or something you pointed out, and it really is something to behold. When he puts his foot in the ground, he can just gain so much ground compared to pretty much any other quarterback. Watching his ability to get north-south, like on the touchdown, for example, it really is a different sort of thing when you watch him run the ball compared to pretty much any other quarterback of the league. Yeah, I mean, when you couple their side, I don't know what he's size-wise is compared to Lamar, but he sure looks bigger. I think he's, I mean, his 6-3-2-30 is what he's listed at.

So he's definitely bigger than Lamar is. Yeah. And so when he strides out, you know, it looks like just a like a tight end on with a turbo, you know, that type of thing where it, where everything is just faster than it should look. And it really is, you know, for lack of a better way to describe it, when he decides to get vertical, he is running away from people. Every run, it seems like he is separating. And those guys are not giving up. And those people are not slow human beings that he's running away from. And so it is a unique skill set.

And I do think it is a, it's going to be a really fine line for them, but it's something that I think you just have to take advantage of because, man, his ability to run the rock is special. It just feels like this, it all starts to start rolling downhill if you can get that going, right? You're in more favorable down in distances more often. You're dictating the game more often. It's not third and eight as often. When it is third and five, you can run him like they did if you want to every once in a while.

So it just feels like even if this part of his game maybe is an interstitial on the way to him developing some of those better habits in the pocket, I still think it's a really important phase to get him comfortable and put him in the right situations over and over and over again, which they weren't doing before. Yeah. I would say that I just love the fact that for at least for me watching it from the outside wondering why the hell weren't we doing this? Why weren't we calling some sort of quarterback run game for Justin Fields consistently to then them come out on Monday night football and have really a comprehensive catalog of runs, multiple different ways to do it, whether it's quarterback draw, whether it's zone read, whether it's zone read lead, whether it's pin and pull, whether it's counter. And to see all of it in one game and have them thrive and just be like, what the hell? Like where has this been? Like by week, shmai week, like whatever. Like this is not new.

football. This has been really popular for a long time in high level football. Why are we, you know, yes, more of this. And so now to know that they have this as a blueprint, now you might not run him that much all the time. But once a quarter, you know, I don't think it's too much to ask, especially in really meaningful situational ball. This may seem like an obvious question, but why don't you think more coaching staffs are willing to do that? Where it's like, all right, these maybe aren't ideas that are central to the place that I come from. If you look at what the Packers' offense was where Luke Getsy comes from, that's the case. But it was the same thing with the Eagles.

Like when Nick Siriani and what they're running with the Colts or what Shane Steichen was doing with the Chargers aren't the ideas that they're running with the Eagles. So why do you think more coaches aren't willing to say, I'm going to learn about this stuff and try to incorporate into what we do, even if it's not my background? Oh, man, this is a loaded one on many levels. I know, yeah. It's a, I think that there's a number of reasons. The easy reason and kind of the thin veneer would be the reason these guys got these jobs was because of the systems and what they were running to get there, if that makes sense. And so to do anything out of their comfort zone for a lot of these cats that are older cats,

I think is really, really tough. The other side is that they love to tell you how adaptive they are and how, you know, don't have a fixed mindset. We're going to have a growth mindset and da-da-da-da. and we're going to find out all about all this stuff in the off season and the clinic season. It's a little bit different when you've got to get out there and call it on third down. And you've got to install it when you don't know where the bones are buried on some of these plays, some of these reeds, some of these RPO's, SROs, different ways to manipulate the decision making.

And you're taking the decision maker. You're basically saying, hey, quarterback, you make the decision where the ball goes. Coordinator, hey, I'm going to give you the framework, the structure to decide where it goes. but I have to trust you to make the decision all the time. And so it can be a little unsettling for some of these control freaks. It really can't. You're loosening your grip. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's just tough. And that's just the way that ball is played at most lower levels. Now, there are certainly more elements of this. And so in the league, you just don't see it for a number of different reasons. I think you could get dive into why you don't see that for a few different reasons. But I think just taking advantage of the way the rules, the game is played, the skill set of the position of so many guys now are. there's so much better at running the ball,

at being a better athlete. You just don't have that old school statute. It just doesn't exist. And so you have to have the numbers in your favor as often as possible. And running the quarterback is just the easiest way to do it. That's exactly what I was about to say, is that it's the easiest way to flip the math. And you said it in one of the examples from that game.

If they're not in zero, you have a numbers advantage. Like you have a numbers advantage. So if you have disadvantages elsewhere, if you have deficiencies elsewhere, talent, whether you could spend resources on all, offense, all of these things that the bears have, it's necessary to tap into the one hidden advantage that you do have. And that's what we saw them do for the first time last night. And it does make me a little bit more optimistic about whatever flexibility,

malleability, creativity could come later, the fact that they're willing to do something like this. Yeah, I mean, you're right on. And it really is, I think when you explain it in a number's way and you actually do the math on the field and you say literally, hey, quarterback, If there is a safety in the middle of the field, we can run you. It's just that simple. So once you see middle field close, it's that simple. And I think people freak out and you can't really see it always from the broadcast. But that third and five example of running on the edge is a perfect example.

They just don't have the math. It doesn't matter. Now, you've got to be able to hold up on the edge and, you know, wall somebody off one-on-one, whatever. But it's that simple. And it really is that simple. Stick around until the end of the episode to hear the trailer from KUVA to guitar, remaking the U.S. Men's National Team, a narrative podcast from The Athletic. Sam Staiskel and Paul Tenorio spoke with head coach Greg Burrhalter, star players Weston

McKenney and Tyler Adams and U.S. soccer legend Clint Dempsey, among many others, to bring you the first-hand story of the men's national team's long road from not qualifying for the 2018 World Cup to sending a talented young squad to this year's tournament. You'll be able to get every episode on the Athletic Soccer Show feed on November 1st. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So I wanted to kind of go from this and talk about what quarterback development actually looks like for you. Because that's really what I wanted to dig into. It's that we know Justin Fields is whatever he is right now.

So how does Justin Fields go from this guy with some of these deficiencies with some of those moments? It's like, man, that just can't happen to a long-term starter in the league. I'm just using him as an example. So I wanted to just start this by asking you, over the last couple years, who to you has been a really good example of someone who's shown some tangible improvement in those areas, who is kind of an example of quarterback development as we think about it. Well, I mean, I think everybody would probably mention Josh Allen as the I was going to say not Josh Allen category.

So we can start every want to. I mean, honestly, I would probably be better at this at just walking through what the process would look like for anyone. And Josh Allen can be a template because he does some of the things that I would suggest people to do. And I don't think that the template is necessarily. necessarily a secret. The first part of understanding it is that it's a year-around development. I don't think that's that out of the ordinary to understand. But if you're a fan, you know,

when the season ends, the quarterback development is really just beginning. The most important part of the development, I would say, for the quarterback position happens in the off-season. So whether you're dealing with your own personal improvement, your nutrition, your health, your strength, whatever, you're also probably working with a quarterback professional coach. You're probably on the field a number of times during the week. So you're working on your mechanics. You're working on your biomechanics. You're working on every element of that throwing motion. From there, you're doing all the off-season relationship building, working with your wide receivers, doing all those types of things that come, couple that with learning, mastering the system, all those types of things. That's

before you even get to mini camp. You know, so that's before the draft, those types of things. That's the real development for me with the in-season development, the camp development. Now you're talking about scheme heavy, right? You're talking about how to play the plays. What are the coaches' expectations, weekly improvement, those types of things, the leadership of the group, the influence. But it's a long-term multi-year, you know, I think of it as almost in half decades. And I think that's hard for people to realize, same way that I think about like draft evaluations. Like think half decade. Don't think, oh, my God, it's week seven and my quarterback had a bad fantasy week. Like, nobody cares about that when it comes to the long-term development of some of these guys.

And so just the framework to think more longitudinally, I think will help people understand. And then just the detail and depth that these guys go after the development of the quarterback position. Do you think that guys like Mahomes or to a certain extent, Justin Herbert or even Joe Burrow, have given us a misrepresentation of what quarterback development actually looks like in the real world because of how quickly they were able to look like semi-finished products? No. I mean, I think that's where the game is. I think that a lot of those guys, you know, the Joe Burrow is a good example of someone who found his opportunity to play, but never, and I'm talking about in college, didn't work out immediately, found his opportunity to play, continue to develop. And you've seen this acceleration of development. But he's a perfect example of a guy who is all in, right? Like chef, personal trainer, a polished passer, working. on his craft all off season, working on what his relationships are like with the wide receivers, the timing, the health of all those types of things. He totally like rehalled how he takes care of his

body. Like everybody, right? Like it's no secret. Everybody sees Tom Brady. Everybody sees the guys with the longevity and what it takes and what the investment into yourself looks like. But he's just, he and those guys, now some of those guys are just straight up unicorn freaks, right? Like Justin Herbert, Josh Allen, you walk around, they're unicorns. But guys like, you know, Burrow, homes a little bit more. They're more just polished passers that have accelerated the learning and development. And I think it's a combination of many things from younger ball being better to those guys getting an opportunity to play immediately. And those guys having some great weapons in really cool situations. And so it's all of those things coupled together. And that's why it's so damn hard for

people to really get like, why is our quarterback not developing as fast as those quarterbacks? Well, every situation is different. Every organization is different. There's so much luck in this process as well. And it's all of those things make this kind of cocktail of craziness. So I want to ask about some of those factors, but it was drilling down a little bit into some of the mechanical things that we can see or some of the process oriented things that you can see. When in your mind, when you're watching tape, can, and what do you see when you're like, all right, this guy is making some of these tangible strides? Is it footwork first? Is it where his eyes are going first? Like, what's your checklist to see that someone's headed in the right

direction. Well, let's first set the kind of limitation on this that it's it's almost impossible to get a holistic snapshot from what I do, you know, just from watching video from afar. Because I don't know what their reads are. I don't know what their footwork supposed to be. But when you're, their coaches or their personal coaches would know exactly what that looks like. And so for me, it would be all of those things. I think when you turn on the film and you're like, okay, I want to see somebody who's locked in and it looks like they're on a. professional development path, I want to see consistent ball control. I want to see accuracy. I want them to be able to put the ball where they're supposed to put the ball, when they're supposed to put

the ball consistently. And then the thing that really jumps off for me is always anticipation. If you're showing consistent anticipation in any system at any level, you know what the hell you're doing. There's just no way around it. You know exactly what you're doing. You're to being coached really well or you're locked in with exactly what your system is. And either one of those things can win on Sunday. And so couple that with, you know, you obviously need some sort of functional arm strength and the mechanics and the footwork and all those things can be worked on and coached. But if you can't control the ball consistently, you're going to struggle.

So talking about the luck that you need and some of the things around you that you need, obviously if we're looking at the plan around a quarterback for accelerating and facilitating that development. What the Eagles have done with Jalen Hertz is a pretty good recent example. And what they've built around him, both that's the offensive architecture where it's the talent around him. I wanted to ask you this, what do you think is the most important piece from a personnel perspective for helping the acceleration of your young quarterback? If you could have the Eagles offensive line and pass protection, or you could have the Bengals weapons if you were playing the position, which would you rather have? I'd rather have the weapons on the perimeter. Okay. I think you can,

And I think you can hide deficiencies up front a little bit easier nowadays game with certain levels of, you know, RPO perimeter screens, quick game, those types of things, moving the launch point. I think I've been in huddles before where you kind of have to take a deep breath and be like, oh, you know, like it's going to be contested today, you know, we're not, we're not separating out there, fellas, you know, and it's a bad feeling. But like, I've also been in the huddle with Calvin Johnson and been like, hey, this feels pretty damn good. Like let's roll. I'll throw it up. You got it. And so those types of things,

it's a different feeling. And that's why those guys are getting paid like they deserve, to be honest with you. I mean, that that's the reason. You know, the game is evolved. But those guys are getting paid because they are so damn important. And, you know, I think when you don't have that, you can certainly get creative like we've seen the bears, but you can also get creative like the Eagles have gone out and upgraded their personnel. And so it can be all of those things. I think the other thing that probably has to be mentioned when you're talking quarterback development is you got to the other reason about the acceleration part of it is because the way you're building your roster in the NFL with a rookie contract you have to take advantage of them what before you

pay them and so you have this kind of like ster on steroids type mentality that we got to buff everybody else up to take advantage of this before we pay this guy if he becomes the guy Now, the long-term thing for me that I've started thinking about is, is that just the way some teams are going to go? Like, are we not going to pay the quarterback here at some point? Is this going to turn into like we're tilting towards the running back type vibe? And we're just going to build everybody else up because we have this kind of insurgents of quarterback, young quarterbacks that could potentially be functional. Maybe. It's a fascinating conversation.

And, you know, it's one that we've had over the years. I remember really drilling down on with Bill Barnwell a couple of years ago. He wrote about this. And it was right when the Rams were going to have to make their decision with Goff. And the way that I would talk about it now is that I almost think that some of the structure and the mechanisms around some of those play action McVeigh, and hand quarterbacks and the efficiency that was almost guaranteed with those systems for a little while, that seems to be eroding a little bit.

And I think the gap between a guy who is just a plug and play person in those situations as somebody that can really make a difference, we're really starting to see that get wider and wider this year with what Mahomes can give you, with what Allen can give you. So I think if there wasn't arguments be made for that path and that plan, at its height, it was probably like four or five years ago. That would be my contention. Yeah, I mean, I see that that type of system plug and play. I guess I'm thinking more of like the,

Jalen Hertz type model where you got a guy who is strong, can run it, functional thrower, that you have all these weapons around you on a really good roster. There's a lot of guys that could thrive in that situation. That's that, you know, not that he's not doing a great job, but that's just the truth. And again, you're using one off outlier organizational examples. But I just, I can like anything in life, I can tell you what you value by where you spend your money. Okay. And so if you're not going to spend your money at the quarterback position, you're going to spend it somewhere else. You're going to value something else. And so that's fine,

but eventually you're going to have to make that decision and we're all going to find out what you value. And that's going to be the fascinating choice that the eagle ultimately have to make is that when it comes time, what do they end up doing? And the nice part about them with Hertz is that they're not forced a new decision. He's under contract for a couple more years. They can slow play this. If there's an upgrade that's obvious to them this offseason, if they end up falling short, maybe they go that way. But there's nothing pushing them in that direction. I think that's the benefit of this, is they can do it on their own time. Exactly. So it was funny watching your video about Hertz against Washington because there is the reason I asked the pass protection question is that there was a play where they're they come up with a pretty creative solution where they're fanning out both sides and they pick up a blitz and they just do an incredible job passing it off. And you watch that happen and then you compare that with just how. how bad and simplistic and rigid past protection plans have felt around the league this year

against some of these really creative fronts. And again, that advantage they have in that area just feels so unique when you compare that to what offensive line play is around the league right now. I just almost can't imagine him developing without that sort of protection on that offensive line up front. So that's why I was asking because it just feels like it's such an outlier with what they can do up front compared to pretty much every other team in the league right now. Well, I mean, I would push back to that.

I remember the play. That was a great play. And sometimes offensive lines, especially great offensive lines, will fall into those types of things. But for me, if you were to ask me, you know, what was probably one of the biggest deficiencies you see on the Eagles film so far? I would say it's their capacity or plan or Jalen Hertz's lack of ability to throw hot. Yeah. It's it's it jumps off the film. And so if I'm seeing it, you know defensive coordinators are seeing it.

You know other teams are seeing it, and they will get exposed at some point. It will happen, whether it's a bad pick, whether it's getting someone smashed, whether it's getting Jalen Hertz hit. It's going to happen. And so I think it hasn't happened up until this point because they do put so much stress on you with their perimeter and with Hertz's ability to run. But, you know, it's multiple times now where we've seen some potential for them to be almost fortunate to not have a bad play come off a hot situation. I was, I couldn't, I didn't have time to watch it today. really wanted to, his game against the Cardinals that you broke down. They're obviously

blitzing at a rate unlike any other team in the league pretty much right now. What did you think of some of their solutions against Arizona who probably forced them into a lot of those situations? Well, I'll be on, I don't remember the game exactly, but I can tell you that I don't remember seeing Jalen Hurr, and I'm sure he has. So I'm sure people will come at me at some point, but I don't remember seeing Jalen Hurst just drop back and throw a hot. Like there's a free runner. Oh, I'll take the hot right in my face. It just, doesn't exist. Now, I will also say that for a long time, I didn't see Lamar Jackson have the capacity to do that. He basically said, hey, two middle fingers, I'll make you miss and go make a big

play, and it will be great. And that's, and he really did do that. And it frustrated me. And it just exposed me for being kind of an old guy who couldn't do that. But at some point, I think that the defender is going to be able to squeeze you in and you're going to have to make some sort of hot throw. And so, you know, I just see that as a potential, if not the only deficiency. with what the Eagles got going right now. And I think at some point, you know, when it's a really crucial situation, end of game, end of half, that they're going to get heated up and he's going to get exposed because they don't have a good answer. And they haven't proven that they have a good answer.

Going back to the Justin Fields conversation from earlier and then also talking about what the Eagles have built around Hertz, I wanted to ask you, somebody who watches quarterback play all around the NFL, who do you think has the best offensive architecture right now for helping their quarterback? Which staffs have done the best job of making life easy on the guy that they have? That's a good question. Well, I don't think it's ever quite as simple as that either. I think some guys have the natural ability to make it simple for themselves, if that makes sense. Sure.

You know, you look at guys like Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen, and they're the easy answer. They're the easy answer to all of these questions. That's just how good they are. But, you know, for me, it's about the ability. And you really see younger guys. Like, I've seen Trevor Lawrence this year show that he's played really well in hot situations where he can get the ball out. And he can, you see the growth and what I consider like a polished Sunday passer as far as the some of the decision making is to make it clean. But as far as, you know, I just think the structure of the way that the league is set up right now with some of these dudes that are playing quarterback at such a ridiculously high level.

level and the way that some of these defenses, many of the defenses seem to have evolved and or caught up and maybe even surpassed some of these offenses as far as making things difficult about the big chunk plays, about being able to go over the top and really have the explosiveness and realize, hey, we've got to find ways to manufacture yards in between the 20s. All of those things together, I mean, I always think of, you know, if I'm going to watch any two offenses, I think everybody's going to watch the chiefs and the bills right now as far as what that looks like as far as offensive architecture about playing to a quarterback strength. But just uniquely, the ones that I am intrigued about are always going to be the Ravens,

always going to be right now, it's going to be Philly just because they're rolling like that. But to me, those are the ones that are rolling that make it easy to play in your offense. I think it's sometimes more interesting to look at the ones that are really struggling. You know, you look at Green Bay right now. You look at Tampa Bay right now and it feels like the, you know, the building's on fire. What the hell is going on on so many. different levels. I want to get that in a second, but I wanted to ask you about a couple of those offenses that you just mentioned, the Eagles being one of them and watching a lot of the work that

you've done, it feels like you want to see more teams incorporate a bigger volume of RPOs into what they're doing to make things a little bit easier on your quarterback. Would you say that's fair? I definitely want to see some level of RPOs. I feel like there are some teams that don't do them that I don't understand what the hell's going on. So that you just feel like, it's almost a necessary component of an offense now just because of the answers that it can give you. Yeah, because of the stresses that it puts on a defense. I think you have to have the capacity to stretch a defense horizontally, vertically, and in the run game all at the same time. Yeah, it's something that I don't know if that gimmicky isn't the right word, but I don't think

I really appreciated it until watching some of your stuff or just thinking about what it gives you as a quarterback in an offense, how necessary it is. And you just, there are some examples where you know, throughout there, like, what if you had an RPO? this like what could it give you and it really does feel like that and it's now rather than being an outlier with an NFL offense again it almost feels like a necessary component for most of these teams and that's a shift that I just don't think I really appreciate it before yeah and I think it you know if you're not doing it I just feel like you're leaving yards out there I think it also says a lot about you as a staff if you're not doing it you either have trust issues or your

quarterback just can't do it now I've been I've coached levels of football where the quarterback can't do it and we have RPO's on every run, and we're not doing RPO's, bro. You're handing the ball off. You know, like that, that's a part of it too. So I never want to say, you know, like everybody's got the same capacity, but you see it across the league, right, from like Aaron Rogers back in the day to just catching, taking the snap and throwing it out to a wide receiver, like an access. Or you see like a post snap RPO where we're throwing a glance down the field.

Well, that puts so much stress on a defense. It just makes life so hard for them. I think you have to have the threat of that type of stuff all the time. Yeah, even if it's not a situation where you're reading a particular player and it's not an advanced level of RPO, like what the Bengals are doing right now, they're not doing a lot of that stuff where they're reading an individual defender, but they're doing box counts and if they think they have an advantage, they're just going to whip it out there. And just having that aspect to your offense, it's opened up their run game. I mean, it's just been one of those easy buttons that if you're not pressing, I think leaving meat on the bone is a great way to put it. So let's get to those frustrating offenses. The ones that when you're watching it are kind of the most difficult for you to stomach as somebody who's rooting for these quarterbacks to be in good situations.

What are some of those teams, maybe even outside of Tampa and Green Bank? We've talked a lot about them, but other offenses you just don't think are putting their quarterbacks in the best situations right now. Well, here's a beautiful thing about my channel. I really don't watch the offenses that I like this because I don't like watching them. But I can name them. I just won't be able to give you the level of detail that you probably. hope it's that's totally fine it's teams like the raiders where you feel like hey we should be way better than this not the fact that derrick car is going to light the world on fire and i necessarily

place him as high as other guys place him but it feels like things should be easier than they are and whether that's josh's issues or whether that's them working in new weapons on the perimeter or a new system or anything i don't want to hear anything about any of the new system whatever those guys are pros pros and it should be way easier to create space and big plays. That like Arizona, where you're like, what is Cliff? Let's make it easier for Kyler. I get it that he not the biggest guy in the world, that that's not necessarily what

an offense that we see run on Sundays for a long time. But man, we've got to be able to create better space and throw the ball to the good players more often. It's really not that hard. I think some people sometimes get lost, especially in scheme world, scheme Twitter, scheme whatever. bro, the best scheme is to throw it to the best player. It's that simple.

I want to talk about a couple of the guys that you broke down recently. And you did a video about Aaron Rogers, just kind of this question of simplifying it versus a lack of execution. So when you were kind of doing some diagnostics about where Green Bay's offense are right now, what did you find? Well, I find that Aaron is trying to do what Aaron has always done. And that's to me to kind of deal it and spin it everywhere he wants, be able to put the ball wherever he wants to elite guys on the perimeter. And they just don't have those guys. That doesn't exist.

In addition, Aaron is getting hit all the time. He's getting hit like he's never been hit, it feels like. And it looks like it just the way that he's played. He's always played off platform. But he's always, I've always felt like he plays off platform intentionally. Like that's just the way he plays. He has so much torque in his motion that it almost looks. like he's jumping. Well, now he's almost like jumping backwards and throws that he used to be

able to make that were handoffs are now skipping or now missing by yards down the field or throws that you never saw Aaron Rogers miss consistently where now it's like you're you're surprised when it's on the money and when it's on the money it's dropped. You know, those types of things where it's just like a cocktail of things going sideways. It's interesting watching that and just their inability to kind of win in those situations. They're seeing a ton of man coverage. And the team that's seeing the most man coverage in the league right now is the Baltimore Ravens, which isn't necessarily surprising, right? They have less than zero options outside. And I think it's like 40.8% of Lamar's dropbacks the season, which is number one in the league. And

going back and watching your breakdown of the Ravens offense against the Giants defense, I'm pretty sure you said Jesus Christ five times in the first two minutes of the video. And some of it is frustration about the lack of cohesion in the run game. There is some frustration about the lack of precision in the dropback game. I'm wondering where you think some of the limitations and deficiencies in the Ravens offense are kind of showing up for you right now. Well, you're right on there. They actually have been not up to their standard, I would say, in the run game, which

will bleed into other issues. They're another perfect example of, I can tell you what you value by where you spend your money. And they're not spending any money on the perimeter. And eventually, even I would argue right now. Now, it's stunted Lamar Jackson's growth as far as what I think he would want to be, what fans of ball would want to see him be able to do, throwing the ball to the perimeter. Now, the tight end is great, and I love throwing to the tight end as much as anybody.

But you're never going to get the explosiveness. You're never going to get the consistent downfield outside the numbers that you should be able to get. When you say, hey, we're catching a lot of one-on-one, bro, we should be able to do whatever we want outside the numbers in the NFL, if we're catching one-on-one with somebody on our roster. A lot of these teams, if they have one-on-one, they'll immediately throw it out there to them. Now the Ravens are catching all this man, and they can't separate. They can't create big plays outside the numbers.

And this is a big and for them for what seemingly feels like half a decade now. They haven't had the scheme or the structure to allow him, Lamar Jackson, to do that from within the pocket. So all those things coupled together. and yeah, we're going to catch a lot of Jesus Christ out there. Watching, there was a couple examples where they're in heavy, heavy personnel, which they're in all the time, obviously. And you're just talking about all of the space that's outside when you're in those personnel groups. If teams are going to be just in single high looks and you get those one-on-one opportunities, it's just having someone that can do anything to exploit that space.

And when you watch them right now, it is shocking just how unable they are to take advantage of those situations. And it's a bad feeling because when you're playing quarterback and that's the case, everything feels like it's on top of you, you know, almost like you're drowning where you're just getting hit with wave after wave after wave after wave after wave. And, okay, let's acknowledge that they don't have the perimeter skill that we think adequate to succeed long term out there. And I would love to see Lamar Jackson throw any sort of ball outside the numbers with

anticipation. Okay. Like, I mean, I think he could help that by throwing with some anticipation. And they don't ask him to do that. So is he proven that he can't do that in practice or do they not ask him to do it? I don't know. It's chicken or the egg at this point. But that's the type of development I want to see from him because I really feel like he could unlock such another level with any sort of help on the perimeter and any sort, any, any sort of anticipation, lowercase a anticipation, soft anticipation.

It's the anticipation is obviously part of it. And then there are plenty of examples that you pointed out where his footwork. is just a little bit messy and precision is the word I keep coming back to. They lack precision in the passing game pretty often. And when teams are making you, forcing you to hit nothing but precise throws because they're playing man coverage all the time, those deficiencies and those problems become even more obvious and more glaring when you have to live in this world. Well, yes.

And I would also argue that it's hard to talk really specifics footwork unless you're in the building, you know exactly what they're supposed to be doing on this specific play. But I will say when I'm talking generic footwork, like at the top of his drop, whatever the drop is, when he gets to the top of his drop, a more consistent lower half, meaning a powerful base, all his cleats in the ground, staying level with his eyes, with his shoulders, with his hips aligned to his target. He could be so much more consistent with his ball control because he has that unbelievable flick. But that flick really only comes out, it almost comes out better off platform. It doesn't, he doesn't, he's not as consistent with that flick from within the pocket because he's moving around, he's jumping around.

He's not settled. And that, could that be tethered to the structure of the offense? It probably is, but it's also probably him. And those two things have to come together for him to kind of be able to take that next leap in that regard. You said, you don't think they have the scheme to kind of overcome some of those deficiencies, talent-wise, where are the holes in the way their passing game is structured? That's not something somebody like me can see when I go back and rewatch the Ravens. All I see is that it feels disjointed at times, and it feels like it has a lack of precision. But where do you think they're actually falling short in the structure of the passing game in the offense? Well, it's impossible unless you're in the building to know for sure, because do they not have it in their

structure of the offense or is it just not getting called? Or is it not getting called because they can't do it in practice? And I've been around all of those situations. But for me, the glaring deficiencies are just, let's see some sort of intermediate, timed, drop back passing game. You know, to make it easy. Make it easy on yourself. Throw it to an open guy. Throw someone open. It doesn't need to be some sort of crazy off platform, hit somebody in the flat, you know, we're hitting a contested tight end. Let's throw it outside the numbers because it's wide ass open. Let's throw it on time and let's put the ball where we want in a consistent manner. You know, whether it's simple stops or comebacks or hooks or, you know, I would always prefer anything on the run.

So guys that stay on the run. But man, anything where you feel like, hey, Lamar Jackson is getting the ball out of his hand on time, that's what I'm. I want to see. JT. really, really appreciate the time. Tell people where they can check out some of the work that you're doing because I highly encourage them to do that. Oh, I appreciate it. The main hub is the quarterback school YouTube and then everything kind of branches off from there from the Patreon community to a bunch of courses. And I just really enjoy getting a chance to kind of drill down and do my own thing as far as watch the kind of quarterbacking that I like, the kind of football that I like and connect and share with people that are kind of in that same path.

So people ask me all the time, how can I learn more about the stuff that you guys talk about? How can I just gather more information about football and why things are structured the way that they are and what schemes people are running? Going and watching some of the stuff that JT is doing is a way that you can do that. Patreon is what, five, ten bucks a month, right, JT? There you go. Never been cheaper. Five bucks a month. Five bucks a month.

And some of the YouTube videos he's doing are 20, 30 minutes about a handful of plays from a game. but you can go watch the entire breakdown of every single play Lamar has against the Giants and figure out why they're doing things on certain plays, what the intent of certain plays are, all of that stuff. So if you want to learn a lot about offensive football, about the run game even, about quarterbacking, please go check out all the stuff that JT is doing. Really, really appreciate the time, my friend. It was great to chat with you. Appreciate it, Robert.

Thanks for the opportunity. All right, guys, that's all we got today. Really appreciate JT's time and your guys' time for spending. it with us. We will be back tomorrow with Mike Sando and Randy Mueller and the football GM. So please come back and check that out. In the meantime, if you could

subscribe to our YouTube channel, I would really appreciate that. The description is in the link to this podcast. We're doing a ton more YouTube stuff this year. Nate and I will be doing our Ravens Bucks recap on Thursday night, so please go check that out. Nate's whine the clock this week was about Breeshall. So please go check out

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Until then, appreciate you listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show. The U.S. hit rock bottom in Cuba in 2017. Can't even talk about it. Still, it's tough to speak about. We failed.

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The U.S. men's national team went through a dramatic evolution. Was that a point where I think, okay, I'm going to lose these guys here. They're going to stop believing in what we're doing. They're still forming. They're not fully realized players yet. I remember after that El Salvador game,

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