The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The players and coaches defining the 2025 NFL season

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

It's a familiar refrain in sports media. "You can't tell the story of SPORTS TOPIC without talking about FAMOUS PLAYER/COACH." Well, who are the players and coaches without whom the story of the 2025 season would be incomplete? Old friend Nate Tice joins Robert Mays to highlight those players and coaches on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:45 Reggie Gilliam, Jackson Hawes, and the new-look Bills run game14:20 Ben Johnson, Joe Thuney, Darnell Wright, Dan Rousher, and the new-look Bears run game24:00 Talanoa Hufanga making an already-great Broncos defense even better32:17 Kyle Hamilton, the Ravens fixer43:03 Chris Shula and the transformation of the Rams54:17 Josh McDaniels, Klayton Adams, and the rise of cohesive offenses1:01:38 Tony Sparano Jr. changing the game for the Colts offense1:08:21 Daniel Jones is the coolest story in the leagueHost: Robert MaysWith: Nate TiceExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Nate on Bluesky: @natetice.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Nate on X: @Nate_TiceTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. We got a fun one on tap today. Our old friend Nate Tice is here to do a little bit of a mid-season check-in. We did a little home-and-home this week. I did mid-season awards over on the football 301 feed. And we wanted to do kind of a mid-season perspective on the way the NFL season has kind of gone up to this point. We didn't want to do awards.

We wanted to do something that was a little bit broader and more abstract than that. So we picked 10 guys that we think of just shaped. the NFL nine weeks into the season. I wanted to do this kind of as a way to celebrate people who might not be in line for some of these awards, but also just coaches, other people who have made the league feel the way that it has felt over the first half of the 2025 season. So Nate and I each picked five guys landed on 10 characters that have kind of dictated NFL football in 2025. Really, really fun conversation. Had a great time. Hope you guys will as well. Let's get to it right now. Time now for the second half of our little home and home podcast situation that we've done this week.

I was on Football 301 doing midseason awards yesterday and he is here to do our own version of a little midseason check in today. It is our old friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. Great to see you back at your place too. The studio is amazing. But this feels, you said home and home. This does feel like home again.

Like it's not home and away. This is back to home because you're in your home. No, great to see you. It's funny because we don't, I don't normally do like solo shows from there, but we were doing the free agency live stream yesterday. And so I was like, am I really going to drive the 20 minutes home? Like, that doesn't make a sense. And so it was the first time I've just sat on that set to do a podcast, which it was okay,

but this does feel a little bit cozier. Yeah, you're back in your, you're back in your environment. You know exactly where all the nooks and crannies are. Like, we're feeling great. Yes, exactly. We did midseason awards yesterday. And so those were official awards, right? And so those are who.

the MVP, and we're going to do that on the athletic football show next week. So just to let you guys know, we are going to have our own version of the midseason awards. We waited until after week 10 for reasons that I don't really know. I'm not sure why we scheduled it that way. You did it like a month ago, six weeks ago and you're like, I guess that works. Bellard does this. We do this all the time where I'll schedule out the mid-week shows like six weeks at a time and then we'll get to the end of those six weeks. I will not remember which dates we scheduled them for. And then I'll be like, oh, wait, I have to come up with more of those. It's definitely been a blind spot in my program.

programming of the podcast feed over the course of the year. How about me scheduling midseason awards on the trade deadline day? I'm not going to lie. That was not supposed to be a package show. That was me going, we'll make it work. I've been doing this for 15 years, and I still have no idea what the NFL calendar actually looks like. And thankfully, there are people to let me know.

What we're going to do today is a slight of a different version of a midseason check-in. I wanted to do this with you for a couple different reasons. One, I think it's just a fun exercise to celebrate some people who have shaped the NFL season but maybe aren't the names at the top of those midseason awards. And, you know, I'll tell you and the audience this. I think you do a better job than anybody in this space of watching what's happening and kind of predicting where the trends are going to go, where the league is headed, and kind of who is doing the shaping. And so I wanted to spend an hour with you today drilling down on that. Like, who are the people who have made the NFL what it has been over the

first nine weeks? And so you and I each picked out five. So we're going to have 10-ish. I always say is when it comes to you and I enlist names that we're going to try it out today to try to figure out. Backup options. Backup, backup backup options. Slash slash. Slash. Yes. The goal in this exercise is to try to pin down and figure out why is the NFL felt the way that it has this year and who have been the important figures in dictating that. And so let's just get into it. Let's hear your first one. Your first character that you think has shaped with the 2025 NFL season has felt like. This is one that's kind of been

something actually I feel like years ago we did a free agency show and that was maybe the first kind of indicator what this was going to happen with this team and that was a couple of coordinators ago actually this is the bills it's reggie Gilliam and jackson haws jacson house is one of mine as well okay it is okay cool this is something and really it's just been my recent kind of like thread i've been pulling and and and before the season i know i talked with you about i talked to multiple people i wrote an article did a pod because i'm a hack about the same thing where I was like, hey, under center stuff, tight end stuff, that's all coming back, multiple tight end looks.

And I think the bills are the perfect kind of microcosm of exactly what's going on with the rest of the league. And for me, it's looking back to 2021 bills to where they're at now. Because I think 2020 bills was just, oh, my God, look at this offense, so fast and everybody, so many receivers in 2021. It was like more of that, but it felt like the bills offense hit a wall. And we talked about this a little bit on the show yesterday on my show, but it was just something that's been vividly in my brain is that Bucks game.

I think it was week 13 in 2021 and where they're running all this RPO's, all these receivers, all this stuff. So I looked at it. It was like, okay, how much of a difference is it now to what the bills are doing this year? And really last year and maybe the year before that were they kind of lead into this. More tight ends. More Reggie Gilliam, who's tight end slash fullback. It was jumbo tight ends.

Now it's Jackson Haas. Just the multiple personnel groupings that the bills can get to now. They can still go 11 personnel and do a bunch of stuff. stuff, but they've had 12 unique personnel groupings this year. I've had 110 plays with Gilliam and Hawes on the field. They have a 70% passing success rate with those two on the field, by the way, which I think is hilarious. 20 dropbacks, six explosive passes too, which is just perfect. But in 2021, all right, so the bills, 8.7% of their plays had two or more tight ends. That was the lowest rate in the entire NFL. In 2025, it's 29%. It's about middle of the pack,

19th. They had zero or they had 110 plays in 2021. with zero tight ends on the field. This year, they have zero plays with zero tight ends on the field. They had 98 plays with four or more receivers on the field, which was the second highest in the league going to be on the Cardinals. This year, they have one play with four more receivers on the field. Two or fewer receivers, they had the second lowest rate. So that's kind of how I've kind of been able to kind of narrow, hey, 12, 21 base offense.

Two or fewer receivers is a good way to bucket that, actually. I should have, yeah, that's clean. That's how I've learned to kind of filter it. I mean, I guess we could talk about this off air. But that's how I've learned how to filter. It is kind of like a better way to look at it. But second lowest rate in the NFL in 2021 with two or fewer receivers. This year, they're middle of the pack 16th, 37.6%.

But the thing is, it's not just like, oh, do it to do. It's not a magic wand, more tight ends, more play action, all that stuff, not a magic wand. The results are striking when you look at what they're able to do from these looks with early downs with two or fewer receivers, their first knee pay per play, second and rushing success rate, third and success rate, fourth and passing success rate. it's tangible the kind of what they put on defenses and what they make defenses try to adapt to what they're doing because they're comfortable getting into these fullback looks, these tight end looks, these spread looks when they want to get to. And it's just cool to see the layers year after year after year that this offense has added personnel-wise, scheme-wise, and everything. So I think those two are kind of the, what they're indicative of what the rest of this offense and the transition that's gone under Josh Allen.

And now Joe Brady is the coordinator. I love that. I think I had Jackson Hawes for similar reasons to that, but also kind of offshoot reasons to that. And so I tweeted something earlier this season while going back and watching tape. And I think it was, I think I was watching, I can't remember which team I was watching in a negative way. It might have been the Broncos. It might have been like three or four weeks into the season. I was watching the Broncos offense.

You know, the Broncos tight end depth is Adam Troutman and Nate Adkins. And it's kind of whatever. But they still use a decent amount of heavy personnel because there's a lot of personnel variety on the Broncos. And I'm watching the Broncos run game with these multiple tight ends on the field. And then you contrast that to a team like the Bills. And my prevailing thought coming out of that was you can find out who the good offenses and the Broncos have gotten better an offense since then. But I think a general rule, you can find out and realize just by watching the tight ends who the good offenses are and who the bad offenses are in the NFL. Can your tight ends block and do they want to block?

Right? Do they give a shit about blocking? And so I think those are connected but also. also there are nuances as to why they're different. And so that part of it where if you can get two tight ends on the field that want to block, that goes such a long way in how it affects your run game, how it affects so many things that you can do because they're viable players that you can keep on the field. And I think Jackson Hawes is a very good example of that.

And I think there are so many teams that have struggled with those looks this year. Like when the Eagles early in the season, we're using so much more 12 personnel, their second blocking tight end was such a zero that it was hurting their offense consistently when they were trying to run out of those looks. And so I think that's part of it. The other part of it is, how are you creating like four and five man surfaces in the run game with more big bodies? The bills are doing it with multiple tight ends.

The bills are doing with a lot of 13 personnel, a lot of 22 personnel. Well, that's not how the bills did it last year. The bills last year were the team pushing forward all of the jumbo looks that we were seeing in the NFL. Well, now, because they have Jackson Hawes, he solves a lot. lot of those same problems while being an actual past catcher compared to like an Alec Anderson. And so the bills have gone away from six offensive linemen looks this year.

But the league has adopted them. And the league has adopted them for, I think, two reasons. One, because there are so many second and third tight ends or non-factors in the run game, if we're trying to create those surfaces, why don't I just put another offensive linemen out there? Like, that's the only viable way I can attack the edges in the run game. And two, more and more personnel groupings that used to immediately. immediately elicit base defense.

Don't anymore. 12 personnel teams play nickel to it. 21 now even. More and more teams are playing nickel to 21. So the only way that you can dictate personnel or the only sure way that you can dictate personnel to opposing defenses right now is essentially 13 or 22 or 6 offensive linemen.

And so the bills can do it with Jackson Hawes because he's a viable blocker, but so many of these other teams are doing it by adding a six offensive linemen to the field. The Eagles are doing that more now. I mean, just the percentages is that we're seeing over the last month or so are ticking up and up and up.

The bears are doing it more. The dolphins were doing it a lot against the Ravens. And so that idea of how can I put the right amount of big bodies on the field to dictate the way the game is going to go to opposing defenses? Jackson Hawes is an example of that, in part because of what the bills are doing, and also in part because of what the bills aren't doing anymore because they have Jackson Hawes.

So I think in so many ways he's like an interesting kind of inflection point for how offensive football in the NFL feels this year. they learned the right lessons. And it's, I mean, I can only, I can't remember how many times you and I got frustrated with the Chargers offense under Joe Lombardi. And really it was more the personnel. And it was just more, oh, Gerald Everett's our only tight end on the roster. Okay. What's running.

Oh, God. Oh, okay. That play just got nuked. And people were always talking about the offensive line. I was like, well, they don't have a tight end that can block. So they only can do certain amount of runs. So they're already screwed before they even line up, even if the offensive line was. good. And just seeing

just the transition and really in just our time period even just kind of from we've worked together and onwards was that I just watching how teams went for so RPO heavy to just separating it. Runs passes. Okay, now we've realized, oh, okay, everybody wanted a receiving tight end. Okay, they create

mismatches. We get based on the field. Defenses went, well, we'll just go big nickel and we'll have our safety be the slot. And that became the standard now. I mean, that's the standard. It's more trust me. That conversation is coming in about 10 minutes. I'm sure there's a couple. No, but that, and it's just kind of the, again, it's just everybody reacts to what the other teams are doing, what they're seeing is working. But the thing is you always need the tools to get to that point.

And I think a lot of teams are just, or even just more personnel departments, I should say, is realizing, okay, some of these blocking tight ends aren't total stiffs. And we also have to realize their usage. Josh Oliver is super important for the Vikings and what they want to do. But he might run three different types of routes and none of them are past eight yards. But that's fine. Because they have a receiving tight end that's valid and a hot end. and say the receiver looks they can get to but he's a valid option in

the passing attack. I mean what the Rams are doing it's been so cool watching them transition from 11 personnel to three tight ends and just do whatever they want. That's a great example to throw out there too. Again, it goes from one to three, not one to two. Don't you find that interesting? Because 12 isn't getting you what you want it to anymore and so now it's either

13 or like a fullback and multiple tight ends or six offensive linemen. That's the only way to like make the button do what you want it to do. do because it's not doing it anymore otherwise. It was receiving with such a premium. And honestly, the defensive equivalent of this is pass rushers were such a premium. And now it's funny, what it has become more valued is can you block as a receiver or a

tight end or as a running back to and pass protection, which most of them can do now. Or on defenses, can you stop the run as well. But okay, we can find pass rushers. Now, don't get me wrong. It's really hard to find the best pass rushers. But the baseline has risen so much that now, you know, it's the money ball of it all. What is the thing that is out of vogue that we can find an advantage? It was blocking tight ends.

And I think now more teams are realizing, oh, this is actually great. Watch the 49ers when Kittl come back, came back. Of course, Kittle opens up so much. But they have Luke Farrell on the roster. And now they have two guys that they can legit run at the point of attack. So it's been a really cool thing. I know Jackson Haas is like, really he's so important. But he is so indicative of what all these teams are doing.

And I think it's just been really cool to watch the Bill's transformation. this year. It's fun because like when I watch the bears right now and you try to check the boxes of what good offenses feel like and you watch Colson level and block. That's one of those where it's like hell of him. Right? Like it's like this is the type of stuff you want to see from a good offense. And again, I do think it's a through line from a lot of the good ones that we've seen. All right. So we both had Jackson Hawes on our list, which is fucking hilarious. Started batting lead off Jackson Hawes. God, make sure he gets the at bats. I mean, we already hinted at a couple more. I mean, I actually had a lot of offensive ones that I look at it.

I'll just even talk about the, you just mentioned Colson Loveland. I'll talk about Ben Johnson, Joe Tooney, and Dan Rousher. The Bears run game essentially is what I'm right is one of mine. Anyone that was in the football 3-1 yesterday, it was so great when we just, okay, let's talk about our short list too. And we'd have like the exact same four or five guys. And I was like, come on without talking to each other once about it. I got to talk about the Bears because just really just the Bears run game.

I know Caleb gets so much of the headlines, and I do think his play has improved. I have some stats if we do want to talk about it. But this is the most explosive offense in the NFL. No caveats. Just the most explosive offense in the NFL is the Chicago Bears. There's no start point there. It's from week one to now. And that kind of shocked me, but that's what Ben Johnson aims for.

It's an offensive philosophy, I believe in, is hunting for explosives. And then the run game is your jab. But they're fourth in rushing success rate after the Colts, the Bills, the commanders and the bears and the bears are in fourth first explosive play rate first and explosive rush rates seventh and explosive player or a pass rate 11th in EPA per play this has been a borderline top 10 offense now they've gone against the second easiest schedule according to dboa so that has the one caveat i was got there out there and guess what who they go against this week the giants who have the 32nd ranked rushing dv oa defense um and then it gets a little more a little bit tougher after that

but this is just been this is what ben johnson believes in and i do think that the early returns or what has grown, especially after the buy week, really since about week four, you can see it. It's tangible. No, the results have been perfect. We talked about the Ravens game a little bit. But the baseline stuff has got risen so much. And what they're trying to do is the harder stuff of offense.

And there's already early returns. It's not like the 2021, 2021, 2022 Falcons conversations are like, oh, that's some cool stuff. It's like, no, this is legit good stuff that's actually working. And I see how they're trying to use kale over how Ben Johnson is trying to use. Caleb, more under center, more play action, more stuff working over the middle that's not just a one-man routes, true high lows. Caleb's a better throwing outside, and I think Ben Johnson knows that, and his numbers have boosted on the outside.

But seeing the inside stuff happen, just picture Jared Goff and the lines offense, that works with the run game that they're trying to go for. So just I had to bring it up because now the bears are winning some games, but this offense has been encouraging to me, yes, going some weaker defenses, but I do think the bones are getting made and now they're really adding the muscle and everything else, the ligaments to this offense. I just, I've been very, very encouraged about what I'm seeing. I totally agree from like a structural standpoint. Like the run game and what they're doing in the run game right now is so fun to watch. And you, I mean, and Bennett's made a difference too. Like, them dropping him in after

the buy left tackle. And, you know, he's still a question in past, in past protection. Like, that's going to be something they have to deal with for the rest of the season. But what he's giving them in the run game, I think you notice the difference. Like, they now have like, five plus run blockers when those guys are deployed in the right way. And you feel that along, like we just said, with the tight ends. And so that combined with, you know, understanding what, all right, these are the runs we want Swift on. These are the runs we want Monon Gion.

Let's get Swift in space. Let's let him do what he does well. And so I just think it's so well put together there. And I think Ben and Dan Rush are deserve a lot of credit for that. And my, why I wanted to mention Darno Wright is like kind of an extension of that. And so watching Darno Wright, essentially, so he missed the Raider game. So he's been back since the buy. and you watch what Darnall Wright has done at right tackle for the Bears over the last three or four weeks.

He's got like three or four, like, highlight plays as an offensive lineman every single week. And what's so interesting to me is that I was excited about Darno Wright by the end of last year. You saw the flashes of like what he could eventually become. But with all non-quarterbacks, I think we take these guys and we just think they are what they are, right? Like, these are fixed assets. Like an offensive line is an offensive. lineman. A receiver is a receiver. We spend so much time worrying about how circumstances dictate the pluses and minuses as

a quarterback play, and we don't think enough about that for individual position players. And so why I think darn all right is such a fascinating kind of jumping off point for this season in general is that I think we've seen so many teams get different sorts of results from their offensive lines because of the situations those guys are being put in. Some of those are structural, right? some of those are we're going to put a ton of base defense on the field. We're going to use a ton of play action, that kind of stuff. That's Seattle, right?

Like, we're going to make sure that you're in base. We're going to use a ton of play action. We're going to have very few true pass sets. We're going to allow the offensive lines left to be easier. That's one version of it. I think the Colts have done that. I think the Patriots have done that. And you've seen the results from that.

But it can extend to, like, individual offensive linemen. Like, Darnall Wright is being weaponized in the Bears' offense in a way. that very few tackles are. And I know this is a lofty comparison, but when you watch him in that 58 this year, there are like Pene Soule flashes from what Pene Sule looks like over the last few years with Ben Johnson.

That only happens because the offensive staff understands how to weaponize him properly. And so I just think so often, whether it's offensive linemen individually or offensive linemen as a unit, we just don't think about how much their play can change because of who the people in charge are. And I think that darn all right is a very, very good

example of that individually this year. He's a great example. Even as a prospect, he got narratively scouted in the sense that I mean like, oh, you're coming from the Tennessee offense that passes all the time and you're big and like this. Oh, okay. All right. I know exactly what you are. But it was like he was way more athletic than he got credit for. But also it was the Tennessee offense was a bunch of down blocks and physical at you, which makes sense. I mean, look at darn out. He's gigantic. But it just that makes sense. And then if you watch this Bears offense right now, so everything that you're saying is, okay, get him out in space, get them on screens, get him down blocking. I tweeted it, other people have tweeted it.

The block he added on that fourth and one, against the bangles. It's one of the best blocks of the entire year. He truly moves Shmar Stewart four gaps over. And puts him in the ground. It puts him in the ground. And bowling pins his own teammate and another guy and another Bengals defender. Like, it's a true highlight real block with Roman Dunezay digging out the safety. So I do have to give him a shout out as well.

But no, that is, that's a great, great, great, great point. And I think I would even say this defensively, some guys, this is what happens as well, where guys are like, well, this is our coverage stuff. I mean, what's going on with like the Cowboys or something of that sort. It's like, or really actually maybe the best example, the Jets defense. Aaron Glenn goes there and goes, oh, yeah, I'm just going to run my stuff or man coverage and quarters on first and second down. All right, well, maybe your guys aren't made out to be man pressed defenders for 30 snaps a game.

Like you sometimes it's just the personnel just doesn't match and you hope these coaches figure that out quicker than later sooner than later but some don't and I think darnel right's a great example of that. It's just I mean just watching the whole run the their offensive line work right now. It's just like you can tell their guy. That right side with him and Jonah Jackson on some of those double team. That's a lot of beef my friend. Yes. A lot of it makes and even like Drew Dalman makes it fits better.

That's a God, sorry we can go on and on with this is sometimes guys are oh we're a zone team. So let's get a bunch of scrappy, run fast, quick hitting guys. You don't want to drop back with a bunch of Drew Dalmans, you know, over and over. But if you insulate him with Jonah Jackson, boom, Joe Truny. I mean, it's for years and years and years. The Eagles put in 330 pounds next to Jason Kelsey as a way to kind of account for that. It's what my dad did with the Vikings. They had Jeff Christie, who's like a former fullback as well from Pitt, 285 pounds.

Then they have Dave Dixon, who's 350 pounds. And it was Randall McDaniel and then other guys. I get three. So it's the thing. And also, that's another thing, too. I've been thinking about this with past rushers and offensive line. Everyone wants two tackles or you want two edge rushers. I really think now it's edge rusher and a detackle.

It's a tackle and a guard. You want one, those you want one of each as your star guys because of how the pockets are getting created now and all the defensive movement that's happening. If you have two edge guys, I actually think that's easier to game plan against. Same with two good tackles and maybe a weak interior line. So this is just kind of an awesome. offshoot idea. Yeah.

It's a team building thought, though. That's important to keep in mind. That's really been kind of focusing on, but I do think that the bears are a good example. All right. Joe Tuny, boom, I got two star quality guys now and I think the pockets, I mean, sorry, my last old Caleb's dad here. I told you, I always go along. They're saccharide.

Caleb Williams and Sacchar has gone from 10.8% to 5.2. The pressure of sacks gone from 28.2% to 13.6%. That's some of his decision making, but that's also the offense line and the comfort everybody has in this offense right now. Yeah. We'll see what happens with the quarterback, right? Like, I think that there's still gaps he needs to fill in. There's still elements of his game that are frustrating.

But for the first time in a very long time, I have a lot of confidence that he's being put in a position where he has a chance, right? Like, it's on him to figure it out because every aspect of what is being put in place right now is giving him a real chance to get where he needs to get to. And I can't tell you when I've ever felt that way. It came my life. You mean when Hackett was there? You know what we were feeling that?

I like I truly don't. What's his name? When Getz he was there. Sorry. Different Packers assistant. I truly don't know if I've ever felt that way. And so that is a very strange but welcome feeling in my life over the past nine weeks or so. All right.

So I had darn all right as my second one. So though with a couple bears tinged one. Who is your third one? All right. Mine is, I'll go with a defensive player finally. I'll go tell Noah Hufanga for the Broncos. And really just a way to talk about the Broncos. Broncos defense. But I could have got Nick Benito, Jonathan Cooper, Zach Allen, John

Frankel-Meyers, DJ Jones, Malcolm Roach, PS2, Riley Moss, Vance Joseph. I could just go on and all with his defense. But Funga has been one of the best free agent additions, full stop. Just that, no caveats, just one of the best free agent signings this entire off season, which I was hopeful for because I've been a fan of his game. He was just bad and had the injury, came back from that with the 49ers. Fourn-Nor's had to let him go. They had decisions to make. but he fits this defense perfectly from a mindset, that attacking first mindset, the awareness that Hufanga plays with. He's one of the smartest defenders in the NFL.

And I think that kind of gets underrated with him. He's a former quarterback. I think that's another thing. It's like the classic John Lynch, former quarterback to head hunting safety pipeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that old chest now. Yeah, we see a lot of those. The Vikings that one, Brian Russell was another one that I could throw in there. But yeah, it's a weird kind of transition for some of these guys.

But this defense, first in success rate, first in yards per play, first in EP per play, fourth in DVOA, first in DVOA, first in SAC rate, first and third down defense, first in red zone defense. You know, they're battling with the Texans, Seahawks. A couple of other teams is the best defense. But it's like, all right, top four. I'm pretty, you know, I'll put it that way. So rarely does that happen where we, before the season, we're like, these are going to be the best defenses. And then we got into the season and, like, those are the best defenses. Like if I had to pick three coming into the season, and Derek and I did this a lot this offseason where it's hard to predict the best one.

And so it's like, I think X defense has a chance to be the best defense in the league. And we picked like the group we would say that about. The Seahawks, the Broncos and the Texans are the three at the top of that list. And they have been three of, if not the best defenses, then three of the best defenses in the league. It doesn't always happen that way. But it has happened this year. I'm looking at my list. And I had the Eagles in my top four as well.

So three of the top four, basically. ended up being like this. And watch one of the Eagles in the second half. We'll see. Yeah, exactly. It was still a lot of ball to be played. That's a great point, though, as far, I mean, but they had so much carryover as far as personnel, play caller, how they win is not one of those where it's like, well, you

rode that high wire for that season, but we'll see if it craps out this year. It's been really cool to see. It's not been all perfect. I do think there's ways you can run on this Broncos defense, but I think what's so cool with Hufanga is watching him. They're so downhill with everything. They're just so fast and attacking. Everybody's attacking in this defense and seeing Hufanga go like, all right, this play's

this play. Are you doing that? Oh, I'm going to go saw off this flat route and just happen so quick. He's one of the most fun players to watch on film. He kind of epitomizes this defense, even being the newest member of it. And so I just wanted to give him and this defense in total shout out. So the sawing off stuff in the flat and I don't know those, there's a couple like really nice moments from him as a blitzer so far this year.

What other like layers do you think he has added to the defense that they might not have had last year because he wasn't there. Oh, with those being a safety, it was some of the stuff too. Because when you're playing that much man coverage, stuff can pop. You know, hey, guy doesn't tackle bringing down. So being around the ball. So it's just another body around the ball.

They like to create islands for everybody, whether it's man coverage, whether it's blitzing, because they'll rush five. Somebody has to win a one-on-one. They're betting that they're always going to win a one-on-one. What if you don't? Well, there's a fog. You know, so like that's another aspect, too.

It's not just that he's at the line of scrimmage like Jamal Adams or something like that. It's that he's everywhere. He is a typical box safety, but you got to remember in the 49ers world, he was a quarter safety that had to play downhill. So it was actually an easier transition than maybe I even thought for him.

I thought it was like, oh, he's a good player. He'll figure it out. But it's just been, boom, hit the ground running once he's been out there. So I would say being an actual safety has helped but on top of the attacking stuff and everything. All right, we're going to take one quick break here and then we're going to come back and talk about another safety,

kind of. All right. My next one here is Kyle Hamilton. and it's and you listen i we've talked so much about kyle hamilton over the last few years but what is happening with the raven's defense right now i think is fascinating on a couple different levels i did a video about it that's going to come out later this week and just like it's kind of a simple idea but it's like Kyle hamilton as winston wolf like that's kind of what's happening right now where he's just like the fixer for the raven's defense so like whenever you have a problem like we're calling

Kyle Hamilton. So last year, the Ravens want to use Kyle Hamilton in the nickel because Kyle Hamilton is a weapon, right? Like if you're not using him in the nickel, you're not realizing all of the benefits he can give you as a team. But the way that the Ravens defense was playing over the first half of last season, they were giving it more explosive passes than any team in the NFL. And saying, all right, we're going to move them to safety. Like this is what we have to do based on our personnel. And last year, they still had Brandon Stevens. They could play Marvin Humphrey in the nickel and safety was the area where they were weakest.

So they go from allowing the most explosive passes on a rate basis in the first 10 weeks of the season last year to the least. Not like the most to the middle of the pack, the most to the least after they move Kyle Hamilton to deep safety. So coming into this year, the thought was we're going to draft Malachi Stark's in the first round. We still have Ardarius Washington. So by doing that, we are able to weaponize Kyle Hamilton again. Two weeks after the draft happens, Ardarius Washington tears his Achilles. So now we're at a place where Kyle Hamilton has to play deep safety based on the rest of our personnel. Well, you watch the Ravens over the first four or five weeks of the season,

and their injuries are part of it. But you watch the defense and it's like there's just something missing here, right? Like the second outside corner spot's kind of a weakness and the front seven's not playing the way that you want to. And so you're looking at it and you're saying, all right, their biggest weakness is outside corner. If you just look at it straight personnel-wise, because Shobuze and Jaya-Oxander, not giving you what you want. And then they trade for a safety. Well, why can you do that?

Because with Kyle Hamilton, your needs are fungible because he can do whatever. So they trade for Alohe Gilman. Kyle Hamilton immediately moves back full time to nickel. Marlon Humphrey pops outside and you still have Nate Wiggins playing really well. So with one safety trade, you solve three positions because Kyle Hamilton can play for you. And then you watch him over the last couple weeks. He's a maniac. Like what he was doing in the Bears game and what he's doing in the Dolphins game,

He's setting the edge against the run. He's making plays as a blitzer. He's all over the place. He's covering Devon A-chan one-on-one on fades from the slot. There is no one like him. And so the fact that the Ravens can just use this one person to solve whatever ails their defense in a given season is insane. But that's who he is.

And so I think there are other things I want to dig into as well. But that's kind of the first thought. Is it like this guy, I almost mentioned him yesterday. but didn't want to spoil it. Like, he won't be defensive player of the year or anything like that because of the stats and just how we give out that award. But when you look at the most load-bearing defensive players in the NFL, he's in the top five.

Like, I think it's undeniable. It's like almost you wish there was an all-defense team version. I know there's pro-voles and all pros, but like in basketball, sorry, just the top five defenders. Any position? Like, you know what I mean? It doesn't have a position label. Just who are the top five defenders?

Okay, yeah. Yeah, he's one of them. I'm totally with you. I did a segment on Hamilton last week on NFL network, and this was kind of the crux of it all, was moving since week six, I'm sorry, weeks one through four, he aligned as a deep safety 71% of the time, nearly 72%. Since week six, he's aligned there, 0.9%. So 1% of the time, he's been a deep safety, truly been in the slot, in the box, and the Ravens went from the worst rushing success rate, worse run defense in terms of rushing success rate. And honestly, it was historically bad. It was, I think it was going on next gen stats. They go back 2016.

It was the worst rushing defense over the first month of the season. And they're a database. And then since week six, like you said, now there's six in rushing success rate. Their ninth overall in success rate. I mean, they went from allowing, shoot, almost like six yards a run, it felt like. And now they're allowing less than four yards a run. And it's just Hamilton, his awareness, one of the smartest players in the NFL, the size he has, too, and just that functional athleticism. it's like, okay, now it's truly,

I know everyone wants to just say like everybody's a hybrid or scheme independent or whatever you want to say. He's a tweener in a good way. But you need those. You do. That's what the NFL is now. That's the next, the other thing I wanted to mention is that like, if you, we talked a little bit about this yesterday,

as a defense, what are you doing to prevent teams from manipulating you? How can you make sure that the game is not being dictated to you? I think structurally right now, the best defense in the NFL in terms of the way that it is built is the Seattle Seahawks. The Seattle Seahawks this year traded up in the second round for a player to do one specific thing. Their goal in drafting Nick Eminwari was to put him in the slot and never have to think about personnel again. No matter what you do, we're going to play nickel to whatever you do. You line up as many tight ends and fullbacks and bullshit as you want to. we're going to stay in the same 11 because we feel good about that.

And Seattle this year, non-inside-the-10 plays has been a nickel 90% of the time. And I'll be really curious with Hamilton now down there, do the Ravens play any more base defense? They didn't against the dolphins, which that's a dolphins thing. Poor dolphins. All these teams are trying to find ways to get base defense on the field. The dolphins run so much 21 personnel and have over the last few years. And teams just stopped. They were like, I don't.

It's like, we don't need to worry about this. It's fun that you guys want to do this. We're not going to give you an extra linebacker. And so the dolphins were like, fine. You won't do it to that. I'll put six offensive linemen on the field. And the Ravens were like, yeah, we don't care. We're still going to play nickel to your jumbo.

And it's just Mike McDaniel's trying so hard. And because of the way the offense is built, he just can't get there. And so I wonder, was that all nickel all the time thing from the Ravens? Is that a Dolphins thing? Or is that something that? feel like they can do for the rest of the year, I do think we'll see them right up there with the Seahawks when it comes to nickel percentages to any personnel grouping.

And if you can play like that, it gives you such an advantage. And Hamilton is the reason you can play like that because he's 6-4-220. He's as big as a linebacker, so your run defense doesn't struggle or get hampered with him in that spot. And so I think more and more teams finding that guy.

Hamilton, Nick Eminwari is that. Cooper DeGine. who is not going to play as much slot now with Michael McCarter there. But, like, that was why the Eagles could play nickel to everything last year. Like, those types of guys are just skeleton key players right now based on what offenses are trying to do to manipulate defenses in the NFL. You know, it's so funny is the team that in my head lived in nickel for years and years, the bills are the ones shifting away from it. They're playing more base this year than ever. So weird.

It's like, and I was like, oh, it's because Toronto Johnson's hurt. I'm like, no, he's playing in this game. This is just what they want to do. And but speaking why I think about that, too, is you mentioned 220. The bill's linebackers are like 215. Like Kyle Hamilton is like bigger than the bill's base linebackers. And no, but all this discussion too is like you mentioned that teams are go nickel to 21. This is why they can.

It's because now these slot guys are 220. They're the size of somebody. They're not that much smaller than linebackers. Or I'm sorry, fullbacks and every tight ends. It's just, yeah, it's just the hybridization. The everybody's flattening as far as position labels. Like they're just going out of the way. It's just the spots you can fill.

And I've kind of also said this, too, about when I'm scouting guys for the draft, is to really emphasize if the guy is a corner slash slot or a safety slash slot. Because that is so, I mean, honestly, no, weakling system kind of thing, but it's just like offensive line. Is he a center and a guard or is he a guard and a tackle? Or is he just a tackle? You know, like, same exact thing for DBs. Is he an interior guy or is he outside?

You mentioned Hamilton. That's another thing about why Marlon Humphrey's so cool. he can play the slot or outside. And he's good at both. So, like, I mean, it's just really cool how they're able to get to that. And then I don't know what to make of the Ravens right now, but it's still wide open for them. So I still don't know either. I mean, it's one of those where like, think of them.

Yeah. My thought is, like, and I just think, obviously Lamar didn't play in that game. So what we're going to, the Lamar offense, I don't know what to make of it. But the fact that they were able to give the bears such a hard time based on how well the bears have been playing against bad defenses out of the buy, that's just something where it's like, okay, like that's a signal to me. Like you can beat up on the Dolphins, but that Bears game, I don't think we should just write it off of like, oh, it's the Bears. Like, they're supposed to do that.

The Bears' offense is playing well enough that that is a notable performance from the defense. We'll see what the Lamar offense does against a real opponent. Like, we're still waiting on that one. Absolutely. When they're not playing the Dolphins defense, who are waving white flags on every snap of the ball, it's just waving them. Shocking that constructing a quorum. cornerback room that you signed in August isn't going to go a long way over the course of the season.

It's not even fun to say I told you so with them. I know what I mean? It's just they're one of those teams where it's just like, I've no pleasure from it. None. None. It's just one of those where I was like, yeah. Does anyone that looked at this to realize what was about to happen? It was even worse than I was expecting, which actually also speaks to what the Falcons are turning

into right now, but that's a whole another conversation. Actually, this whole whole whole thing reminds me of too. I mean, this whole personnel usage and everything was a person I know that works with Tom Brady now. He's kind of like helps out with the, you know, the commentating stuff. Brady had a whole rant apparently in a meeting one time about how it took them years to get defenses back to base because they were getting so annoyed that everyone was going to nickel to everything and they just wanted to get the base to throw. And so they're like, all right, 12 personnel. No, you guys are going nickel. Uh, uh, uh, uh, Jacob Johnson, fullback. Okay, okay, okay, now you guys are going. Okay,

okay, now we got another linebacker on the field. So they became back a fullback team and back to a tight-end team because they're just trying to get freaking three linebackers on the field and four dbs. I just think it's pretty funny. That's the struggle this year. That is the struggle in the NFL. That is the push in the poll. And figuring out what's going to get it for you, it brings us back to the Jackson

Hall's point. It's all connected. And so I think that's the fun part about this. All right. So that's three each for both of us. Who is your fourth one? Your fourth guy that in your mind has shaped how the NFL season has played out to this point.

So it's not really a guy. It was more of figureheads. And so I don't know how to like. even say, I'll say Chris Shula is the way to do it. He might, he won an assistant coach for me at the midway point. So let's act like I say Clint Kubiak. So it's not like I'm cheating here. But I really, it's more how I want to talk about us. The important people for the Rams have really shaped the NFL this year. The Sean McVeys, the Chris Shula's, the Matthew Staffords. I was trying to find some hipster guy in there. Maybe Colby Parkinson. Okay, maybe that's the

guy that I want to talk about here. Byron Young, I guess. You know, we talked about them a little bit yesterday. But it's just the offense, defense, QB, it's all cooking. I think they are on the forefront of whatever is going on in the league. I know this is something you and I talked about this summer. Again, I'm a hack. I wrote about it, podcasted about it, is that undercenter dropbacks for the offense. Okay,

so I know I just mentioned Chris you. I want to talk about the whole ramps right now. Under center dropbacks, boom. We're going old school with our passing game. And guess what? More teams are doing it. And it's also the results have been good out of those looks as well. It's so awesome to watch. It's hilarious. My favorite play, my favorite under center dropback of the season so far is Seattle on Sunday night against Washington. The touchdown to the lottery.

There's no playfake on the play. And the defense reacts like there is a play fake because of what their expectations are when you are under center. And so watching the impact of it, even if you kind of understand why it should work that way has been incredible. Like it is, you are playing with like human nature and expectations in a way that is. incredibly cool to watch. It's everything we're talking about right now. It's the, it's tendency breaking. It's and how I've kind of framed it is you're adding scissors back to rock paper scissors. And it's like, because if I'm under center, all right, I know it's either going to be a runner or play action. If I'm a defender, all right, it's rock or paper. Now I've turned one

out of a three into a 50-50 battle. Watch a baseball game and hear baseball players talk about. When he only has two pitches. Oh, now he has three pitches? Oh, and I have to honor. Okay, this is a lot harder. They have four. It goes even more and more. But now if you add just a sprinkling. I'm just talking about this is like it was one or two a game. Now it's more like three or four a game where it's just it's what I learned as a drop back passing game. And it's kind of cool to see from a teach point because now the timing makes sense from the

footwork. You know, gun, there's been kind of a hybridization of what people do out of the gun and how they throw on the timing of everything. But when you watch the pass play from under center, you're like, oh, wow, these route depths make sense to the dropback. It's really not. It's really refreshing almost. just to watch.

But just seeing all these classic concepts come back and tying in with a run game, tying in with the past game. And it's funny just that the old stuff is the new stuff now. But like you said, it's just you're making defenses honor it. And talking about personnel, that's a tendency. And this is what the Rams, Sean McVeigh realizes. That's why you always want to be 11 personnel with Gurley on the field every single snap. Was I'm not giving the defense any indication of what I'm doing.

Everything looks the same. Everything is tendency. You have no tendencies on us. Every little thing that you look at all the opponent scouting doesn't matter against us and you guys have to guess about what we're about to do what we've been saying kind of this whole show if you can say nickel the same nickel every time on defense

same thing for the offense. Oh, they're a nickel again. Same person. Do they have a certain line? Nope, same linebacker in there. Do they have a certain front in there? Nope, same edge and detackles. It's just you're not giving them anything to pull at,

any thread to pull at. So this is just another version of that where you're making them honor. And then defensively, Chris Shula, they're in so much dime that again, that it's a defense that I don't go, oh, they're in dime, here comes a blitz look. Oh, they're in dime. Here comes this front. They do all their shit out of dime.

So it's just, again, it's just kind of, they're always on the forefront of doing something. This comes back to one of our OG conversations on Brandon Staley. They're that Sean McVeigh knows how to ID these defensive coaches that are ones that make it the hardest on offenses. And that's what Shula has been doing on defense because it's the same body types all over the place. since it's been really cool to watch this Rams team this year. So I'm curious what you think about this. The Rams have been running more dime for the last two years than any defense in the NFL. They do a ton of it.

They're clearly leaning into it. I think the McCreary thing is kind of like a declaration of intent about making, like, we're going to do even more of this than you're seeing us doing. The game that the bills just played against the Chiefs on Sunday night or on Sunday, do you think that is maybe like a big bang sort of moment about the usage of dime personnel in the NFL in a more widespread way? like two years from now, do you think we'll look back

in that game that the bills played against the Chiefs on Sunday and say that was the moment when the light bulb turned on and the NFL got wise to the fact that maybe dime is the future.

Maybe. Because it's just the next step of what we've been saying with Big Nickel. All right, we got all these safeties we can grab. All right, let's get one in the box now.

You know, it's just, I think, I just think about how unpredictable they felt. Yeah. Like that, like, because with Mahomes

specifically, he does, he's been doing such a good job of being able to identify pre-snap what you're going to do and deciding before the balls even snapped, I'm going to go here in half a second. There's nothing you can do about it. And the bills, because of having as many past defense bodies on the field as they did and being able to disguise things in the way that they did, they took that away from him. And so maybe it's, maybe it's not going to be like a big thing. Maybe it's just like a chief specific thing.

But I just hearing you talk about the Rams and then having that game be fresh in my mind, it's like maybe there's something here. Like maybe there's like a kernel of something here. to kind of think about as we move forward. Well, there's two very good defensive coordinators in L.A. right now. And you know who else runs a lot of dime? Jesse Minter and the Chargers. So I would say Jesse Mentor is a pretty damn good coach. And the fact that he wants to lean into that,

even they have tangible linebackers they can play. I was even thinking the Vikings have been funky with the personnel because of some injuries and stuff like that, but I was breaking down a play. And the kind of where Mattelis really helps slow down. offenses is how are the Vikings using Mattel us on this play? All right, he's lined up

over the tight end. Usually if a 44 is lined up over a tight end, I kind of know what I'm getting here. You know, probably a certain coverage. But is he a blitzer? Is he a zone? Is he a flat defender here? Is he, you know, it's just playing with that. So what you're speaking to, again, it takes away ways I can indicate what the defense is doing.

If I have 6 dBs, any of them can blitz, any of them can do anything, it just takes a way going like, who, as a protection-wise, who's the likely blitzer or the likely pass rusher? Because that's how you declare it on offense. And it's just taking away a card that they can play. So again, there's great theorizing this with you because I do see more teams probably doing it. And just the body types that are coming through in college and stuff that are maybe used to playing these light bodies.

And if we have fewer linebackers that we feel good about, and it does feel like that's happening, right? There are just fewer linebackers. You feel good about your coverage. This draft, though. Thank God. Oh, no, no, there's like four potential first round linebackers this draft. The amount of like terrible linebacker play in the NFL right now, it's an epidemic. I mean, it is so, so bad.

So maybe that is one of the reasons is that, and the Rams are obviously the perfect example of this. The Rams don't have. It's easy for the Rams to play dime because they've never invested in a linebacker one time. So I just, it's just something to think about. Like that game, maybe I'm overstating it. Maybe it's just the most recent thing I watched. But that was just one of those games. It feels like this matters in maybe a bigger picture way.

And I don't even know if it's just. dime they do, but even the Cardinals defense does some cool stuff. And even there, like, their stuff is they have so many hybrid bodies up front too. So it's like, all right, Zavin Collins, could any snap be an offball linebacker, being edge rusher, being interior rusher, being coverage, do any of those? And so, okay, but they have personnel groupers where it's one defense alignment, five linebackers and five DBs as an offense. All right, who's the most likely rusher of like five linebackers? Slide it. Slide it. So again, you're just taking away a card an offense can play. So great theorizing this with you because it's kind of the same

stuff I've kind of been noticing. It was just just making it a little harder on everybody. Rawlis is so unhinged, man. He is, he's like, he's on a whole different level. It's just like, he's not scheme weirdo. He is like, he's the best. It's true. It's truly knuckle ball. It's the knuckleball defense. Like it's, yeah, his brother, Mike, his name was Madcap Moss. His original name was Riddick Moss, Moss, because he's a Vikings fan or Annie Moss. And I was like, I think your brother's the Matt Cap defense coordinator because out of his fucking mind. It is really funny.

We've talked about it a lot over the course of the offseason because I was fascinated by what they would do as they got better players and whether they would still be as funky and they're still pretty funky. And it's just, and the irony is that people used to shit on Gannon for being so simple and that he hires a defensive coordinator that is just like an absolute insane person. And they have a great relationship.

Like truly like one that is built on like very mutual respect. and I think there's a very healthy creative tension between them and talking to each of them about the other one is a very cool thing. But just that like professional partnership between those two guys is kind of like odd coupley, but they tend to make it work on that side of the ball, which I find very funny.

Yeah, I know their personality is are wildly different now that they got it. I'm talking about. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then come back with a couple more guys. All right, so you at Chris Shula is yours. I'm going to do a coach kind of two, coaches for my next one here. We talked a lot about Josh McDaniels yesterday on the half-season award show. I think he could easily be the assistant coach of the year. To me, he's in the

conversation for it. It reminds me a little bit, I've made this comparison a decent amount this year. It reminds me a little bit of watching the Broncos offense last year where it's nothing crazy, right? It's not all these like bells and whistles and motions and like it, I've said this before. Like, if I was explaining to a layman why the Dolphins offense two years ago was cool, it would be very easy to do. I think it's harder to do that with offenses like last year's Broncos or like this year's Patriots. But why I wanted to mention McDaniels and then the other guy is Clayton Adams. I figured you would bring him up so I didn't bring him off.

Here's the reason that I'm buckling those two guys together. And it's because, again, I think sometimes as members of the internet football hipster community, we can put a lot of increased emphasis on the shit we think is cool. Right. Like that's cool. And so that's what we want to like talk. about and think about. The Patriots offense and the cowboy's offense, there are some interesting things they're doing, but it's not good in a loud way. It is very, like, rooted in, like,

fundamental ideas. And the word I would use to describe both of these offenses and why I think both of them have been very good this year and very compelling to watch is cohesion, right? But when you watch both of these offenses, a lot of the stuff is fundamental. And that's simple. simple is a word that has negative connotations, but it's familiar, right? A lot of the stuff is familiar, but it's all tied together in a way that makes perfect sense. The runs and the play actions are tied together. The personnel groupings are tied together in a way that makes sense. And when you watch those offenses, there's a smoothness to it in the way that it all runs because it feels so cohesive.

And I think those types of offenses, we don't talk or think about enough because it's not as showy, but those are the types of offenses often. Why is that team better than we thought they were going to be? Oh, because it all makes sense. And that's not that, like, it's not earth-shattering to say that. But I think those two offenses this year specifically have been like a jarring reminder of that idea. And that's why I wanted to mention both of them. Yes, the soundness of it all.

Like, again, it's, I think McDaniels is the best example. Even when he got hired, people were asking me like, oh, is this a great fit for Drake May? I was like, well, this offense will be sound, so it won't be frustrating. Like, so I won't watch it and go like, oh, why are they doing that stupid? play like why are they doing that concept that doesn't have an answer or like why are they running that gadget play into a blitz and when you watch them there's not a lot of plays with that it's more you know they just lose you know a guy loses a one-on-one or something of that sort obviously you need a quarterback to operate to lift up that ceiling I should say but it's a floor raising kind of schemes

and it's schemes that I believe in as well it's like that it's very very familiar to me from my what my dad did and also what we did at Wisconsin but a not just because they use fullbacks, not just because they use tight heads and everything, but just even just run game-wise, it's always a hat on a hat. There's never a lot of unblocked guys, which zone running teams will have unblocked guys just by definition. And if you really lean into it, that can get ugly if you don't, you don't really channel it. Watch the Texans against the Seahawks.

I know not a lot of people wanted to watch that, but watch that short yardage sequence that they had, they had a third and one, then fourth and one, they got stuffed two times in a row. First off, should not be running with one of the worst offense lines in a league against one of the best defensive lines in a league. That's just not even theory. That's just math. But it's just like watching them. The run plays

they ran, they are unsound. It's not that oh, it's not a run play that doesn't exist. It's just that it's impossible to block against the defensive fronts that they were going against. I drew lines trying to figure it out and trying to give, I would try to give leeway to the coaches and go like, well, they probably didn't

design it this way. It was probably just someone botching. And I'm watching. I'm like, you literally can't block these plays. Like those plays are dead on arrival and they're two of the biggest plays of the game and you're running into that. To me, that's like, that's why I'm like, all right, Texans, I don't care how much better they get. It's like, I'm already, I'm already, like, they're already like behind the eight ball for me. Like, I'm just like, all right, I'm ready to knock you into the pocket and never deal with you guys again. But just with these offenses, yeah, they're not the sexiest thing. They don't have

the craziest motion. It's a very, everything's traditional. That's the word I always kind of use. Yeah. Traditional is a good word. It's, it's a traditional NFL offense. There's, you know, it's these these offenses that just get distilled over years and years on the concepts that work against all defensive fronts defensive coverages. So I'm with you. I'm glad you Rob Clayton Adams because, again, honestly, him losing or going from the Cardinals to the Cowboys was one of my biggest kind of misses as a predictor this year was I didn't not get it enough for the Cardinals' offense and I didn't boost the Cowboys offense enough

because of what he provides. And again, some of those concepts that he does, even run game-wise, it's just, adding just a little flourish to traditional like split zone. All right, let's just have the tight end motion and motion back real quick. Oh, wow, that's crazy. But if I drew it up on a, it's just the exact same drawing, I drew up on a play 15 years ago. But again, I'm with you. I really like what these two are doing.

So I'm glad you mentioned both of them, the soundness of both offenses. Yeah. Again, it's just something that I need to remind myself of every once in a while where it's like these things that maybe don't seem sexy and exciting in real time are actually the right choice. Right? Like there is like a floor raising is a good way to put it. Like soundness just like a certain reliability to offenses that we take for granted at times. And I think sometimes we should not take them for granted.

Especially when you have a quarterback. That's the thing. It's like you don't need to do the bells and whistles when you have a do that quarterback. It's literally all I've said about the Cowboys this year. All they've done is they've used like a league average rate of all of the things that make life easier on the quarterback. And they're playing like ridiculously good football. It's not an overwhelming ask. It's like, I think it's very reasonable what I've been asking for and that's all they're doing.

And on top of it, like, even the Pickens edition, it was more like, Piggins has been great and everything. But even just that type of player, like, Dack has needed that since Gallup has been, you know, Gallup went out to pasture. Like, it's been, he's needed that type of player. And then they find, yes, he's a good player on top of it. They just need an average X. It's like help out this offense. So it's like just these. Not Jalen Tolbert.

No, not Jalen Tolbert. No, not for any cooks. We didn't necessarily need George Pickens. We just needed not Jalen Tolbert. That's it. And you're going to see some of the results. And that's what they've done. You were talking about the Ravens 32nd to 1st.

Like they just need to go 32nd to 18th. But going to top 10 is pretty nice as well. You know, but no, it's just when you have a dude at quarterback that can do a lot of the hard things, make the easy things easy. And I think that's been, Josh McDaniels does deserve credit. We both gave Drake May kind of the midseason MVP. And it's just one of those when watching Drake May, he lifts the ceiling. but now the ecosystem lifts the floor. So it's, yeah, I'm right there with you.

My last one, of course, I have a couple options. And of course, it's a couple offensive line coaches. So I almost said Josh Swett and Zavin Collins, but it's not like their defense is now up there. But it's like it hasn't told the story of the season. They don't even about freaking winning. By the end of the year, I'll be curious how we're talking about the Cardinals defense. I agree.

I think that's something the second half of the season. Now that they're healthy again, that's one where I'm filing that way. Yeah, the DBs are great. I know, I know. So we were on the same way went up to that. So a guy that I gave flowers to yesterday, I kind of made him on my short list for assistant coach of the year. So far midseason point is Tony Sparano Jr. Offens line coach for the Colts.

I don't know if I have to list off anything, but the Colts run game is pretty good if you watch this Colts team this year. Top two run game. Any way you shake it. Very, in talking about soundness. And that's what offensive line coaches provide. And that's what he's provided. It's, you know, they do some cool stuff. with formations and some formation or and some motion stuff but you know you got to remember stikin's the

north turner guy very traditional and then you got tony sprano junior literally tony sprano's son very traditional how they do things the run game is very traditional but they never run into bad boxes they never go into bad looks and then they got a superstar running back that just takes it over the top so same discussion we're talking about with like four raising coordinators and everything for the quarterback same thing with a running back and same thing with the offensive line they're going to do the stuff that puts it over the top. But I've been, the Colts have been so much fun to watch every week this year. I gladly ate Crow on them like two weeks into the season.

I'm like, yeah, this is a good offense. Yeah, it was, it was, it was instantaneous. It was like one of those things where it was just like, yep, no, we're good. No, we're all safe here. Yep, yep, we're good. This is a top 10 offense done. And then it sounds like top 10 historical offense. But no, I think Sprano Jr. has been a one of these, I had no opinion on him going

into this year, put it that way. And now I watch this Colts team and I'm like, oh, that's, That's a good run stuff. Oh, okay, I see what you, I saw why you motion that guy to get this look. Okay, that makes sense to me what you're doing. And even pass protection wise, have you seen many games where Daniel Jones? I know the Steelers game just happened, but if you just watched the whole game, it wasn't as bad as it seems. Turnovers suck.

Who knew? But just watching, do you think Daniel Jones has ever been just like, it's because on third and long, they got a great protection plan. On play action, they got a great protection plan. And that's the offensive line coach. And that's what they put their fingers in every single week. And that's how they make their impact in every week. And so, yeah, the proof is in the pudding, of course, with the results. But I think the process of Sprano Jr.

And this Colts entire team, our offense has been really, really cool to watch. We've talked about this a lot, but just this idea of the value, like the very tangible value of one of these difference making offensive line coaches. And I think the, we know who the guys are, right? Like, think about what Jeff Stoutland has done. You think about what. Stoughton should have a trophy right next to Rocky. It's unbelievable what it does for your organization.

I think Hank Frey has become one of those guys, right? You just look at what the offensive line, it's like a machine. Like you go into it and like you walk out transformed into like a workable NFL offensive lineman. Like that's what the lions have in their building now because Hank Frey exists. And when you have one of those,

there are a lot of intangible benefits to it. But there are also like very real financial benefits to it. And like the cult are the perfect example of this to me. Okay. So right now, Ryan Kelly is making like $10 million a year from the Vikings. Tanner Bornellini is on a $1.2 million cap hit this year. Will Fry's is making $17 million a year, 17 and a half from the Vikings.

Matt Gonzalez is making about a million bucks a year at right guard. This offseason, I would not be surprised if they moved on from Braden Smith, who's going to be a free agent. They drafted Jalen Travis in the fourth round this year. And at this point, are you betting against their ability to turn Jalen Travis into a starting caliber offensive lineman? So when Braden Smith gets $20 million a year this offseason, which he probably will because right tackles as good as Braden Smith

don't usually hit free agency, we're going to be in a place where because of the offensive line ecosystem created in Indianapolis, they're saving $40 million in value that they can use on other players because of the development pipeline that they have created. That's crazy. it's it's it's not just like oh offensive offensive system hack it's like a franchise hack it's just i i've been fascinated with kind of the baseball three point maybe because the mariners are relevant again

so now i'm all into baseball again uh it's it's this is the last time we've done a pod together they're way more relevant uh no but it's just they i like watching now it's like well if everybody's into moneyball and everybody's in on base percentage and every other stuff that came up all right what are the edges oh player development is the edge. Look who those San Francisco Giants just hired? They hired a college coach has no professional experience. And I know who knows what happens there. But that's been fascinating

to me. It's kind of like more things change, more of the state of the same. Your players need to get better in order for you to succeed as a team. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we need our fourth round pick to actually be something and not just be an idea. Like, why don't you get better? Poked a stick at him. Why aren't you getting better? And like honestly, one of the biggest

hacks you can have is an offense-aline coach that has a ceiling on how how he wants to rise up the ranks. You need Adonte Scarnacia. You know? Stalin. Stalin doesn't give shit about being an offensive coordinator. He'll be there making whatever he makes forever.

That was issue with my dad. He cared too much about that. Howard Mudd, another one from the Colts back in the day. But if you get a guy that actually you can have this infrastructure, what the bucks are doing right now, keeping the, I'm playing on his carberry. Carberry.

Yeah. He's phenomenal too. They just had injuries. But that's a hack as well. like the Rams with McVeves had a couple guys, but he always wants a guy that's a true Ryan Wendell is there now

and I think they really like Ryan Wendell there, yes. And Clay Nams might, I mean, I think Clay Nams might begin a head coaching shot too if he really wants it. I think he actually deserves it. I don't know how he is as an interview, but coaching wise he's very good.

But getting these guys that it's just been boosting these guys. Like you said, you brought up the contract implications. The Colts lost their two best linemen, or not their two best linemen. That's a lie. They lost two good linemen. And they got better with younger players.

That is, that's rare. And that just speaks to what kind of what they're doing. It's so hard to do. And again, like this idea, there's no cap on coaches. And so you're saving $40 million against the cap. How much do you think Tony McSparano Jr. is making? You know, less than a month. 500 grand.

Yeah. 600. Yeah. And so it's, those are guys where like, if you have a good one, it's hard to figure out how much. If it's, like, it's hard to overpay them. It's hard to get to a point where it's just like, oh, that guys were $5 million a year. Yes. If he's really good, yes, he absolutely is worth $5 million a year.

The third most important person on the staff, I should say. It's head coach, O.C., O'Line coach. And I would say maybe whoever is charged of the third down, DB coverage stuff, you know, on top of that as well. But it's, they're so important. My last one, let's stick with the Colts. It's Daniel Jones. This is. And I.

It's like, this is such an easy jumping off point. and it's something that we've revisited a ton over the last couple years, but it's, to me, it is one of, to me it's a cool story about professional football in the last two seasons is what has happened with these second chance retread quarterbacks. Like, just think about, it's happening every year.

Like, we had Darnold last year, we have Daniel Jones this year, we had Baker the year before that, Gino is in that mix. Jared Gough was traded for nothing. He was, the contract was a throw in. And Jared Gough is now one of the most efficient quarterbacks in the NFL.

And so the fact that all of these guys, and I just think there's so many layers to this, and I think we'll do like a real considered look at this at some point on the show in the back half of the season, because I think you could spend an hour easily talking about this idea. Because I feel like there are player development things to dig into here. There are psychological things to dig into here. There are financial things to dig into here. Because if you look at this, and I've talked about this a bunch, but like the Baker contract, for example, right? So Baker gets a one year $4 million deal to come to Tampa.

So crazy. $4 million, right? And so even that part of this is fascinating, right? So Baker gets a $4 million deal to come to Tampa in 2023. Now, in part, because these guys have succeeded, the price tag for the one-year retread reclamation projects is $15 million because of how much just is this working. Jones got 15 and Justin Fields got more.

Justin Fields got two years of guarantees because of what's happened with these types of things. So you're already seeing, I think, their agents for these types of players get a little bit wise to this. But if you look at the multi-year financial outlook of it, Baker had a $4 million cap hit in 2023. He has a $7 million cap hit in 2024 and a 26.5 million dollar cap hit in 2025. So let's do the math on that. That is about $37 million over three years. That's what Caleb Williams makes. So this idea of a rookie quarterback contract.

if you can get one of these guys that it's maybe it's less upside because we've seen them fail to an extent. But we've also seen them play in the NFL. Like there is more certainty with this than there is with a guy like Anthony Richardson, for example. And so are you, you're having to pay a little bit more, but not that much more. And so if you feel good about a certain level of reliability with these guys, with everything else about your infrastructure, structure being good. If you can tab the next one of them and he becomes available, there's like real value to be had here. So if you're a team next year and you think, you know what, Kyler, they didn't get the most of him in Arizona, but I think we can do it. And so Kyler's contract

is obviously bigger than these guys, but it's a lot of base salaries now. You buy signing bonus is already paid out. You can play with some of the money and you can get it to a place where you're not paying him that much if you were to trade for him. And so I think these things will continue to happen because it's not a rookie quarterback contract, but it's not $55 million a year. It's somewhere in between. And so I just think, you love the QBee middle class. You've always been fascinated by it. Yeah, you always have, because you're always, you, years ago, you would talk about this because

you're always like what it, because it didn't exist for a couple of years it felt like. There was a stretch with like Andy Dahl and then Colin Kaepernick where they got those deals, that were kind of middle class deals and then it went away. And so now it's kind of back. And this idea of like all of these guys are, they're 27, 28, they're more developed as players, like they understand the game more. And so these guys who are hyper talented, are we at a place where their second stop is actually the place where you can get the most out of that talent?

You know, it's just there are so many different aspects to this that I feel like are, again, just dictating the way that the NFL feels this year and has felt over the last couple years that even if this idea is kind of old hat now, because we've seen it four or five times, over. The fact that it happened again for a team that is the best offense in the NFL and fancies itself a Super Bowl contender, it's worth bringing it up again. Like, this is not going away. It's getting to that same, like, because the ideal of having a quarterback on a rookie contract, of course, is, okay, build up the rest of the team. And now we, just at the cost and everything. Okay, cool. But usually you have a bell curve. There's not been not many rookies that are outright good.

They're encouraging, you know, as for, but, you know, league average is a win. It's almost like an NBA rookie. It's like league average is a huge win for your first year our quarterback. All right, let's work out the kinks and pay them the same amount. Let's just get your two through four quarterback play, but now they're 27. And we, we, and then also the lowering of expectations helps too. Absolutely. That's the psychological aspect of it. That's real. But yeah, you know, just the players, but just even how you sell it to everybody. Right. You know, that that matters so much. Okay. That's such a great point. The patience it creates and like the leniency it creates is very In the weirdest way, because people's expectations are lower.

Fans, the staff, oh, well, he's this because he's this. He's always been that. But also when it starts working outright, you know, like Baker or something like that or just other guys, well, this guy's played in big games before. You know, like, as opposed to a second year quarterback craps out, it goes, will he ever be able to figure it out? You know, like, and again, I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. I'm just saying this is easy the human element of all this to sell it.

Well, of course he had a bad. game. That's why we signed him for so cheap. Of course he had a bad game. That's why he's on his third team. But it just makes the excuses for everybody and it makes almost less pressure on the quarterback in a weird way. It's so true. They're paying Sam Darnold $33 million a year

in Seattle. Every Sam Darnold, obviously it's gone as better than anybody ever could have hoped. But let's say it didn't. Every game wouldn't have been a weekly referendum on whether or not Sam Darnold is good, even though he's making three and a half times what Caleb Williams is making. Absolutely

not. It's just, I mean, look at every second year quarterback's fan base right now. Oh, my God. It's just like, I live it every day. I know you do. And I get to dip my toes in and out when they're doing well. And it says, if I even say anything that's not like this guy's going to be an MVP in their future, oh my God, you would say, I just say he's the worst quarterback ever. But if I say that about Donald or just even, or Baker or something like that, and then people just go, yeah, yeah, okay. Like, it's just like, even for me as an analyst, it's actually a little bit easier because it's just like, well, you. Yeah, I've already seen it. Like proof of concept, whatever you want to put, expectations, self-fulfilling prophecy, whatever you want to say. But it's just kind of funny how it's just the element, the narrative changes with all these guys. How much better would our lives be? The anxiety of fans and just the hit rate on players if we just said

every quarterback must sit for three years before they get to play. Oh, it's just so much better. Everything would just be so much better in life. So much better. Oh, my God. I go through it with prospects right now because I'm an idiot. do a mid-season big board. And when I, and so I've learned my lesson, you know, for doing this for a few years now, is just don't get into the conversations week and week out. Just drop in,

watch the four games, drop right back out. But it's just, even at the, like, and it's just, I'm just act like an evaluate word. I'll talk about this in December and January, because I've realized even just, you talk about any of the quarterbacks or any players, you're like, that was your receiver won? I'm like, yeah, it was. Like, what are you going to do about it? Like, I just watched this four games, you know, just the week. weekend, week out, results-based, like, analyst that happens. It's just like, oh, it's exhausting. But yes, I agree.

Every quarterback should sit for at least two years. We'll make it happen. We need a, the money you pay that guy will not go against your salary cap. Like, there are ways we can figure this out. We will solve quarterback development at some point in the next year. We'll put our heads together and we'll figure this out. Every week you don't play him, you get that money back on your cap. Like, it's just like, it's just a boost.

It's like, yeah, I can come up some board game. If we can save the owner's money somewhere along. in the way. They'll be all over it. We will be able to convince people. They'll be all over it. It's always good to do this with you, buddy. I miss doing it with you.

Had such a fun time over the last couple of days. Please tell everyone where they can check out the work that you are now doing over Yahoo. Over at Yahoo. Yeah, Football 3-1 is the main squeeze with Charles McDonald and Matt Harmon, podcast, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sunday live shows. Before your live show, you can do a double header. You can go our show, Saturday Night Football, the Athletic Football Show, live show. Everybody wins. Everybody's happy about it. Also, written work over at Yahoo and then

TV stuff, NFL Network, check me on Thursday. It's not this week, though. Get the week off, which is kind of nice. Awesome. Thanks to the time, buddy. I know you're very busy, so I appreciate you doing it. Thanks for having me. Always a blast. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. If you have not checked out our free agent live stream, that is available in your guys podcast feeds. We dropped it in there. We did it live on YouTube, but we felt like, you know, people would want to listen to that. So that is available in your podcast feeds. And Kurt, what did I? I'm saying, free agency? Yeah.

I keep doing that. I've done it like five times over the last week. Your trade deadline recap is available in your podcast feeds. The free agency one, I don't think would do much good right now, consider we did it in March. So please check that out if you have not. Our week 10 preview will be on your feeds on Friday. So please check that out as well. For now, that's all we got.

Appreciate you guys listen. We'll talk to you very soon.