The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The stories teams are willing themselves to believe

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Long before Ted Lasso was a smash hit TV show, professional sports teams had been willing themselves to "BELIEVE." Sometimes, that works out wonderfully, as in the case of the Bears believing that Ben Johnson was just what the doctor ordered for Caleb Williams. Other times, it doesn't quite work out, like when the Giants told themselves they only had a Daniel Jones problem. So, what are the stories that NFL teams must believe about themselves this season? Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dave Helman crack open the storybook on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.0:00 Welcome to the show5:11 Jaguars13:20 Giants25:30 Commanders25:45 Stefon Diggs news39:50 Eagles51:27 Colts57:16 Bills1:02:45 Chiefs1:05:43 Bengals/Cowboys1:08:30 Broncos1:10:30 TitansAccompanied reading: Sando's QB tiers, https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/interactive/nfl-quarterback-tiers-insider-rankings-2026/Join The Athletic Football Show Discord Server: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowHost: Robert MaysCo-Hosts: Derrik Klassen and Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerSenior Producer: Katy DuffySocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @RobertMaysFollow Dave on X: @DaveHelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today we're chatting about some stories that teams are having to tell themselves heading in to this NFL season. For whatever reason, the fact that teams have painted themselves in a corner, their personnel moves have made it so they have to tell themselves a certain story about how things are going to succeed. That's what we're talking about today.

Just not necessarily the lies that teams have to tell themselves about their current situation, but the spin that they're having to provide to kind of, to believe in what they're capable of this year. We did this show last summer and really enjoyed it. We're running it back today. A couple bits of housekeeping before we get into today's episode. First off, live show September 1st at Lincoln Hall in Chicago. Tickets are available right now on the Lincoln Hall website.

Really excited about doing our second live show. Really enjoyed the one we did right before last year's playoffs. This year, we're doing the Winspool draft live at Lincoln Hall. So if you want to come be a part of that, we'll do some. Q&A after Lincoln Hall is a very cool bar area in the front of the venue where we were able to hang out and chat with people and visit with them last year. We'll do the exact same thing this year. So if you want to come hear us give Derek shit about losing the windspool last year,

give each other shit as we make these terrible picks over the course of the entire draft, and come say hello, hang out with us a little bit after the show ends. We would highly encourage you guys to grab a ticket. I'm looking forward to it. My mom's going to come this year. My mom didn't come last year. So just, you know, little things that we're excited about. Also, if you have not been checking out our training camp stuff, there's a lot of it, right?

This is the Little Caesar situation. I don't know if it's good, but it's hot and it's ready. All of the training camp coverage that we've got coming to your guys as way. We've got training camp notebooks coming from every single stop of my tour. Those are all living on the athletic football show YouTube channel, you know, three four-ish minute videos, three if our producer Katie gets her way about every single stop that I've made. making. So just insights, conversations, little nuggets that I'm taking away from all of those the first time doing these. So if you haven't been checking those out, would encourage you to do so.

And then our beat writer conversations are going to be gathered up and running on Saturdays throughout all of training camp. The last one ran last weekend. We'll have another one this weekend from all the stops that we're going to make over the next week or so. So be on the lookout for all of that. If you have not been engaging with it already, for now, let's get to the stories that team. are having to tell themselves heading into the 2026 season with me, Dave, and Derek right now. Every year, their teams, as they get into the offseason, they get closer to the season, you have to lie to yourself at least a little bit, right? You can't account for every potential downside, every weakness.

The moves that you make happen in accordance with how you see yourself. And I think every team has to tell themselves a story about who they are and how things are going to go. When we did this show last year, Derek, the example that I really was the genesis for the show is that the Giants just brought in Russell Wilson a quarterback and didn't do much else. And the Giants had to tell themselves a story last offseason that they just had a Daniel Jones problem. They didn't, by the way. They had more than a Daniel Jones problem. We'll talk about them today, by the way. But so many teams each offseason, based on what the moves they make and what they project to you, they're telling you and themselves. They're telling you and themselves,

a story. And I think it's a useful exercise. I really like doing it last offseason, Dave. And that's why we wanted to lean back into it today. So that's what we're doing. We are going over the stories that teams have to be telling themselves as we get a week into training camp and a week into August. I didn't do this on purpose. But as I was looking through thinking of things that interested me and stories that I thought teams might be telling themselves. I came away with a fun theme throwing back to like high school football. Like I imagined these stories being the sorts of motivational speeches that your high school football coach told you in the locker room back then, which you'll see what I mean when we get into it.

But I accidentally created a theme with the teams that I wanted to talk about. You did it as if they are truly telling it to themselves. Like not just like this frame me like they are actually saying it to the locker room. That's good. I do have one that a guy literally said this week. And so there's going to be some examples of ones that are actually happening in reality. So let's start digging into these. Dave, why don't you kick us off?

What is the first story that you wanted to go over that teams are telling themselves right now? These are all stories that have been in play for most of the off season. But some of my takeaways are things that are framed by what we've been hearing since training camp opened and what's coming out of different NFL camps. And I want to start with a team that has not generated a lot of conversation. And their head coach wants you to know that. And he wants you to know that he appreciates it. And it's the Jacksonville Jaguars. And I think what the Jacksonville Jaguars are telling themselves right now is we all we got,

we all we need, fellas. Nobody else is on this bandwagon. So it might as well be us. And that is very directly what Liam Cohen is talking about. I'm sure you all saw his rant last week about how the Jags were not mentioned on the front page of NFL.com. I will agree with him for being a 13-win team that won the division. This is not a team that is generating a lot of headlines in the NFL landscape right now. And then more directly, more.

Yeah, he's taking pot shots at other teams when he's making that comment, which I did not appreciate, by the way. We can get into the bears of it all if we want to. on top of that very literally, very literally, in addition to the motivational tactics, that is what the Jaguars are doing this year. Like we've talked about it before. Outside of Chris Rodriguez and Travis Hunter coming back from injury, there's not a whole lot in the way of major acquisitions or changes for this Jaguars team. They didn't have a first round pick.

They didn't spend money in free agency. They're two of their top free agents left to go to other teams. they're very much running it back and hoping that young players and players that didn't have a role last year is all they really need. And so metaphorically, because their coach has a chip on his shoulder, but also very literally, the Jaguars are all they got and apparently all they need as well. I joked about the bears, but I actually think the bears and the Jags can kind of be linked here a little bit. I was considering each of them under this umbrella.

And I think the story that the Jags have to tell themselves and the same ones happening in Chicago. It's like our offensive head coach is one of those dudes. And that is enough. Like with the guys that we have plus this guy that we brought in last year, that is enough for us to stay in the conversation the same way that we were last season as playoff teams as 13 win teams. And so I'm with you. I think that it's a version of the same idea where like what we have and what we had last year, the line is just going to keep going up. But I think it's dangerous to think that way sometimes, Derek, but it feels like the Jags are confident that that that can be the case for them. And if Liam Cohen is one of those guys, like we've seen that all

of these elite play callers can kind of get by with certain things. And like my, I actually had the Jaguars in mine as well. And mine was more specific to the offensive line. Like I wrote, they are hoping that they can get away with it again. Because I still think when I look at this offensive line, it's not all that talented. Like Hainzie was okay last year. McCarrie was okay. I would say, Ezra Cleveland probably played his best football, but even still, I don't think that he's anything more than like average above average. And then Colvan Landon inserted himself into the left tackle spot fairly well last year. But even he's coming off an injury that ended his season in I think week 18. And I believe he's still on the PUP list. And so they're still hoping that they can figure this thing out and that they're going to be okay. And there's evidence that teams can do this. Like Matt Lafleur and Kyle Shanahan have gotten away with average to below average offensive lines for quite some time. And obviously the Jagger's did it last year, but you kind of saw the run game fall away last year, and they really did need Trevor Lawrence to step up, and they really did need Parker Washington to be this elite player for stretches. And so I think they could do it, but they are really telling themselves,

like, yep, we can get away with it with this unit. It's fine if we don't have, like, any pro bowlers here. I think they see Anton Harrison as an ascending player that can become one of those, like, difference makers up front. But other than that, I'm with you. They, last year, I think the approach was we just need to make sure we have a certain floor up front. When James Gladstone was in L.A., they had that season in 2022 where the bottom just completely fell out. And I do think that that experience has informed the way that he's thought about offensive wine construction in the first couple of years he's been in the job. And if I was playing Devils Advocate, the point that I would make is what they did this offseason, now they're even establishing a more secure floor because they have the

depth that it's the same level of players, they just have more of them now, right? So let's say one of the guards gets hurt. Now we have Emmanuel Pragnon that we feel comfortable playing in spot duty in one of those spots. So that protects us even a little bit more. We have a swing tackle that is the most expensive swing tackle in the league probably, but he's capable of playing if we need him to. And so I think that's been their thought is as long as we keep the floor at a certain point

with the quality of play and the depth that we have, spot we feel comfortable in the offensive staff being able to construct the dynamic offense with that being the level of offensive line play we're banking on that's a story you have to tell yourself right like that that is a vert that's a thing you have to believe in in a philosophical way where it's like it's not about the ceiling it's about the floor with that group front we've seen that work before but like you said Derek we've seen that work in certain specific circumstances where the offensive ecosystem is so strong and the the way that

they approach things is so specific that you can kind of paper over what that offensive line construction looks like. Don't forget about the other side of this either. And it's similar because it was a little bit of an upset to me that Anthony Campanelli stayed in Jacksonville. He did such a great job. And getting Travis Hunter in the lineup and I'm assuming he's going to play a lot of cornerback this year, that is a big deal.

But you're still like on both sides of the ball not improving the personnel. And it's a bet on coaching in both of these instances that, hey, Anthony Campanelli was a assistant coach of the year candidate last year. He can do this, that, and the other. We've got pass rushers up front. We're getting Travis Hunter back. Maybe that is enough. But I really, I can't get over how striking it is to look at the Jaguars roster and realize that not counting Travis Hunter, who did play about half of the season last year, there's nothing new here. like across the board there's really nothing new.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is an unusual thing. They're banking on in-house improvements and returning guys. But like Travis Hunter is what he is, but Eric Armstrongstead got banged up last year. So can he stay a little bit healthier? I think the Mason Smith Rookeroroa Roe trade is very telling. Like both of those teams looked at a skill set they had

and a skill set they wanted and decided they would switch that. Because Oroa, theoretically, if he has a little bit more runway as a pass rusher, if Armstead does get banged up again, now you have at least one more piece in the interior you think has a little bit of juice. And I would say the guy among that entire group that, I don't know if they're banking on it, but I think they're kind of banking on it, is Trayvon Walker taking another, like, significant step as a pass rusher? Can we have that dude go from being a very useful player with the way that we want to play?

Like, he's so central to their ability to fend the run out of, like, boxes and just all the ways that they can use him. But him turning into a Will Anderson light type of player where they now have like an edge duo that starts to bump up against a version of what the Texans have. To me, that is one of the things that kind of has to happen for this vision of the team to come together to the degree that they wanted to. And like to their credit, I do think that that can't happen. Like Trayvon Walker has gotten better every single year that he's been in the league.

And again, I still don't know. because the bend is not that crazy that maybe he's never going to be a consistent 12-sac guy, but can he give you a couple of seasons where it's like 10, 11 sometimes, maybe high pressure rate because he's just always crushing the pocket. I don't think that that's that off the table.

I feel like if he becomes some version of like purely as a pass rush or like a 90% Jared verse, that feels like that he could totally get there. Liam Cohen, play this in the team meeting. We believe, okay? We believe. Derek, what's your first one? here. Your first story that a team is having to tell itself as we get into August.

I'm going to go back to a team we already talked about at the top. The New York Giants are telling themselves it is the year 2018. That is what they are trying to convince themselves of. You have John Harbaugh as your head coach. Yes, you have John Harbaugh as your head coach, who I think in 2018, obviously the Ravens were incredible that year. And so there's that. You have Greg Roman, who obviously ran a really impressive offense that year. And I think up until that point, even if there had been frustrations with Greg Roman, like the San Francisco offenses he ran were really good. The Buffalo offenses that he ran were really good. I think we were

all pretty excited about what he could give you in that realm, especially with the quarterback run game when a lot of teams were doing a lot more quarterback run game, truthfully. And then you have Matt Nagy also on the staff where 2018, like Patrick Mahomes, is a phenom by then. And so you have this

group that is this coaching staff that feels like they were kind of peaking around that time. Roman was doing a lot of the quarterback run game. And I would say that that's important. and because they have a quarterback who his best weapon, his best tools are designed run game and RPO. Some of that stuff can still work in 2025 and 2026, but it was better in like 2018, 17, you know, 19 and 20 and 20 and so, and to even further it going back to like how football was played then, their best tight end is like a move flex guy who is really more of a

wide receiver than the tight end. And they, there's some reason to like be excited about Cam Skadigloo, but they're closer to like getting by at running back with a committee than having like one of these dudes like a Sequin Barclay or Derek Henry or a Bejohn Robinson or something like that. Is it a good thing in their minds that it's 2018 again? Like we can revive 2018 again? I think they're thinking that like this was the best time for all of us. And if we combine all of our powers and kind of bring it back, we can get the most out of this quarterback who I think as far as the NFL landscape is now like DART is kind of unique in the in the,

the fact that they're like, they want to use him as much as a design runner. And so I think that they are kind of selling themselves that like, hey, we can, we can bring back some of the stuff that we did back then and make it really good again. It's really funny that all of the quarterbacks that in a different world were design run guys, Lamar, Jaden Daniels, Jalen Hertz, all of those teams are drifting further and further away from it. Like, I don't know, couldn't put a percentage on it, but I'm wondering how many design runs Jaden Daniels had last year. We could potentially look it up. But I bet it's a minuscule percentage this year compared to what it has been over the last two years. And I think the same is probably going to be true in Baltimore. And we've

seen a decrease over time. And it's going to decrease even more as those teams go under center more than they probably did over the last couple of years. And so in many ways, I think the Giants are going to be one of the last vestiges of how we talked about and played football in 2018. For good or bad? I really love your choice of the Giants, Derek. We've been on the same wavelength all week because I had the Giants as one of mine. My thesis statement, I'm going to take it even more throwback than you. My thesis statement is the Giants are telling themselves that those who stay will be champions. Like real Bo Schembeckler shit from the golden era of Big Ten football.

Like that is the vibe that I'm getting from what the Giants want to be under John Harbaugh is it feels like such a throwback. to an older generation of football. And like even beyond 2018. And to illustrate what I mean, I was, I was thinking about this in detail while I was getting ready for the show. And think about what you're asking John Harbaugh to do,

which has come into a team that has been very little success over the last decade. Very few guys on this roster who know what it's like to be on a consistently good football team. And a lot of the guys that do are following. following him over from a winning program in Baltimore. And he's 63 years old. He is not a play caller on either side of the football.

And the whole point is establishing this winning mentality and this culture. And the anecdote that I saw this week is that Harbaugh chewed out Jackson Dart for taunting a defender when he scored a touchdown and being about the little details are going to get us beat. You're going to make us kick a 50 yard extra point. We need to talk more about this. Bring it on. Jackson Dart, scrambling in a training camp practice and scoring a touchdown and throwing the ball in the defender's face when he can't get hit during the practice. Is one of the wilder decisions I've heard about this summer so far. That's why defenders hate quarterbacks right there.

But like, tell me that like that shit's going to play really well with a large segment of. of the Giants fan base who have been watching shitty football for a long time. And they're going to say, John Harbaugh is dialing us down on the details and he's the CEO head coach that is going to find the extra edges. And maybe that's true. I don't want to shit on the idea entirely because there are successful CEO head coaches in the NFL today. But you look across the landscape of the league and the John Harbaugh model is starting to look

really alien when you look at the successful head coaches in the NFL who are providing a decided advantage calling an offense or defense on game day. 22 coaches in the NFL right now are calling plays on one side of the football. 22 of the 32 are doing it for either offense or defense. And we've talked about it before. They're also skewing younger and younger. That's not to say you can't be a successful older head coach in the NFL, but this is a is just starting to feel more and more like an outlier. And when you see what obviously McVeigh and Shanahan and now Mike McDonald, Ben Johnson, when you see what these guys are bringing to their programs on Sunday, on the field,

I lose a little bit of confidence in this CEO mentality where you're kind of at the mercy of the hires that you make. I mean, Nick Siriani is a younger head coach who doesn't call plays on either side of the ball. And he's had a tremendous amount of success. Wouldn't you agree, though, that his job security is a little more tenuous than a guy who's been to two Super Bowls would be? And there's no doubt. Several of his hires have gone so poorly that it has set the team back in multiple seasons. And so I look at what the Giants are doing. And it sounds very good from a football guy standpoint. And it gives me a lot of misgiving in the current landscape of the NFL where we're

seeing just how much an advantage you can get from these play calling head coaches. Let's point to me the most analogous situation that currently exists in the NFL. It's the guy that has the same last name as John Harbaugh. They had to

fire their offensive coordinator and replace him because they needed more help on the offensive staff than they had because when you are this type of coach, you are going to rise and fall as your staff does. Like that's just how it goes.

And I, this can work. And I do, I don't want to dismiss the idea of how important it is. You use the word program and building a program and having a way that you go about it and a way the building feels and a mentality that you set, a standard that you set. That matters, right? Like, that's really important. That's what a head coach's job is. It is to create buy in and an agenda and make sure that everyone in that entire building is pulling in the same direction and operating on the same wavelength. That's real and that's very important.

But when that's all you do, you then have to make sure that every single hire that you make is the perfect hire, is the right hire. Because it's going to work or not work based on the quality of those. And we just have so many examples of that. And right or wrong, I think kind of to that same level and on that same point, I write or wrong in fair or unfair. I look at what happened with Pete Carroll last year and it scares me a little bit. If I were a Giants fan and I was trying to find the worst case scenario, it scares me a little bit. The Giants staff is so much more professional and put together than the Raider staff was. I mean, even if we have misgivings about the Matt Nagy offensive coordinator tenure and Greg Roman kind of flamed out again with the Chargers,

these are guys that have had success that have shown an ability to do the job. Mike Blumgren, who's their offensive line coach, was in Cleveland last year. He is somebody that had a ton of success at the college level. And so all of these things that were the reason that the floor, that the bottom fell out for the Raiders, I don't think that's going to happen for the Giants. But I still think a lot of the same pitfalls potentially exist for them that existed for the Raiders last year because of the type of head coach that you hired.

I think it's worth saying Mike Rable's name as well. Like there are, like I said, there are coaches that can do this and do a really fantastic job. Dan Campbell had to fire his first offensive coordinator before he made the hire that got everything humming, but Dan Campbell is another guy as well. If you're a Giants fan, it's not to say that this can't work, but like I said, it just feels very alien. And when you get past the idea of a detail-oriented head coach teaching accountability to these guys, there's value in that for sure. But how much further does it go after you lay a baseline? And so I've just been thinking about that as the Giants have gotten deeper into camp. And I think even to that point, Dave, like Vrable and Dan Campbell specifically,

even if they are more like the CEO type coaches, and I know Campbell was calling plays at some point last year, it's still obvious what they give you on game day. Like the way that they make decisions, the way that they just have like very fine understanding of all the rules, like Campbell, even if he wasn't calling plays with Ben Johnson, I think very clearly had an influence on some of the unique stuff that they were doing. Absolutely.

And he still does. And I think that's part of the reason they were still an elite coach lot. They were still an elite offense last year for firing their offensive coordinator halfway through the year. Because he got better than how it's shaped. Right. And so even if they are like the CEO guys, it's obvious what they give you on Sundays in terms of that stuff. I think I think with Harbaugh, it's a little bit more hard to see. And I think that that's why it feels a little bit closer to like the Carroll thing potentially.

I'll say this about the potential ceiling of a setup like. this. If you're a Giants fan, like what does happen with the Chargers, right? I know Justin Herbert is a very good quarterback and we're not sure if Jackson Dart's going to be there. It's not completely one for one, but just let's play this out for a second. If you're a Giants fan and you get to a point where you fall short in the playoffs and you have to get better at your offensive coordinator spot, I think that's a fate the Giants would be okay with. Oh man, we're not good enough to get past the wild card round because our offensive coordinator's not good enough. Oh, man. What a horror show.

A nine win, like a nine win giant season is a roaring success, I feel like. Yes. And so I think that's the thing. Setting the floor here is probably more important than anything else if you are the New York Giants. We'll deal with the R. We Super Bowl caliber two years from now when we get there. I appreciate that perspective because, and that is why Harbaugh is there is like to find a baseline of respectability that the Giants very briefly. I guess found in 2022, but other than that, it's been a wasteland for a decade.

And if Harbaugh can't get them over the 8 and 9, 9, and 8 hurdle, you'd probably take that after the decade that they've had. Like, that's okay. All right. Let's take our first quick break and then come back and stick in the NFC East for a minute. So Dave, you and I both had Commander's takes or Commander's stories. I was in Washington this morning, but I would have thought. this even before I got there.

The story that the commanders have had to tell themselves this offseason is new ideas will save us, especially on offense. Obviously, Stefan Diggs, this Spondig signing happens half an hour before we started recording this huge, like necessary, you know, like this needed to happen based on the current state of their roster. We're talking about a combination of Diami Brown, Traylon Burks, and then a little bit of Antonio Williams sprinkled in there. that's not serious for a team that probably has to win like double-digit games for everyone to feel good about how this season went.

So them signing Stefan Diggs, I mean, we think we could connect the dots on that for most of the offseason. But that's really the only splashy thing they did with the offensive personnel, depending on how you're going to bucket Chicka Conquo in that signing. But the offensive line is back as constructed without their starting center from last year. All of the running back moves that they made are very modest. moves. And so on offense and then also on defense, this is about if we change the way that we play, if we are more in line with the offensive meta to a degree on offense and then on defense, we are incorporating and adopting a system that just makes us harder to play against. And I think that's the point of this. If we just become harder to play against on offense and defense,

we are going to be good enough to get where we want to go. That was the problem last year. I buy into it a little bit, and we can talk about that, just about the changes that they're making and what they want to get out of them. But that's absolutely the story that they're telling themselves. And that's kind of always the story when you're changing out both your coordinators. It's like that was the problem. The ideas and how we play was the problem. Now that we're tweaking that stuff, we can be closer to the team that we want to be. In so many words, I had the same idea.

I mean, the funny answer to this is the commanders are telling themselves, we can wait, on digs he's still there and now that that's done with i think the story you're the story you're telling yourself is the infrastructure that we on the outside i guess the infrastructure that they can't see is better than it's giving getting credit for and that's i mean that's the decisions they made at coordinator i mean dorante jones coming in for dan quinn to give him play calling duties as a defensive guy coming from brian flores's staff that's very interesting to me and then i think If the commanders had done more on offense to give us confidence, and I like the Diggs edition for the record,

but I'm talking about throughout the off season. If the commanders had more to work with to get you excited about, there's no way we wouldn't be talking more about David Blow. Like he is a fascinating character in this upcoming season other than the fact that when you look at what the commanders are trotting out there, it's hard to get overly excited about anything other than a healthy season from Jaden Daniels. I mean, look, I know the commanders were based, like, if it weren't for the Cowboys, they're the worst defense in the NFL by a wide margin.

Like, they were pitiful. I get why you had to do things on that side of the ball. It's still crazy that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars in free agent money. I think if you're doing going off of cap hits, the defensive additions they made this year are accounting for like a quarter of their cap space, like 50, 60 million dollars. cap space. Their offensive additions, it's like $7 million. That's before

Diggs. I don't know how his contract structures, but it's Chigacanquo and Rashad White. And other than that, you're, it's save us Jaden Daniels. And maybe to that degree it's save us David Blow and Jaden Daniels. I think that's what it is.

Yeah, I think that's the story that they're telling themselves. It really is. And like at least with Daniels and like we have proof of concept, right? like his rookie year doing what he did with a pretty limited offense in terms of the cupboard, I think was extremely impressive. But I think to that point, too, like, they are selling this idea that they're going to be a little bit more under center and maybe they're going to run the ball more.

And the offense is going to look a little bit different. But I look at the personnel that they have and I just don't, I struggle to buy it, I think. Like, Chigaconkwo does not feel to me like that sort of tight end. And I know that they have like John Bates who can be a decent blocker. But then even I look at the wide receiver core and like Terry McClarence, Defon Diggs, like potentially Antonio Williams, that feels more of like an 11 personnel like gun type of team. Rashad White, I think he's like a really good pass catching back.

So it almost feels like the more you are in gun and can weaponize him, that that is like a weapon for you. Like it feels like they want the offense to be something else. But a lot of the moves they made still suggest that it's going to be a lot of what had worked for Jaden Daniels in his rookie season, which like probably makes the most sense. And if this is a 15% of the offense is different, but it's still 85% of what he does extremely well, maybe that is enough for them to be like,

we're different enough and just difficult enough to defend that this can work. I think it'll be a bigger change than that. Okay. I think it'll be a more substantial change than that. And I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you that, but I think that their best collection of 12,

of 11 players with Diggs now, is going to be McCorren, Diggs, Bates, Acanquo, the offensive line, name your running back. That's going to be their best 11 players. And if I'm trying to paint a rosy picture of like how this can work out, if you look at, so David Blow was there in Detroit during Sam Leporta's rookie year. And I think Chigo Conquo now in year five is probably as useful of a blocker as Sam Leporta was as a rookie, right?

Like it's, let's compare him to rookie year Sam Leporta. And so the 12 personnel that the alliance could, use that season where you have Brock Wright to just be the guy that you can stick on the line of scrimmage and then how many creative ways can you use Chico-Kanco as a blocker that's really not asking him to do the things he can't do. That to me is the version of the Washington offense that can work out. That's an incredibly fragile, specific personnel grouping. Good offenses typically have more things they can do. But I think that is their best pathway to being the offense that they want to be.

How much of this do you think will be under center? Because like you can still be a phone out. Really? Okay. I think I want to see that from Jaden Daniels before I like truly believe it. Because some quarterbacks just don't like or are not as comfortable turning their back. Like Joe Burrow is an excellent quarterback who just has not and does not do that very well or very often. He apparently has had very little issues. Okay. That's awesome. I think he is he feels comfortable doing it. I don't that I don't, my sense is this is not a situation where it's like, ah, I don't really love

this. I think part of it is his comfort level has been notable. And I think the other part of it is, and Dave said this, like the Save Us, Jaden Daniels thing, I really do believe that they think they have a special player and that we forgot the fact that he is a special player. And this version of the offense, as much as it's about leaning more into the offensive meta, being harder to play against all of that kind of stuff, I think the other benefit that is potentially on the other side of this version of offenses, he's healthy. If we're playing under center and he's not running the ball on design runs four or five times a game, and we're not putting him in harm's way, and he plays the entire season,

we're going to remind you that this is a special quarterback because I think you guys forgot. That's not explicitly what they've said, but I think that's kind of the subtext in the background of why they think this is going to work out, even if it looks structurally a lot different. Here's my rebuttal to that. and I have no problem believing it. And it makes sense if they think that. If you think Jaden Daniels is special, which I do,

why the f*** are you asking him to carry such a mid-supporting cast so early in his career? Well, that's what Pats are the Holtz is supposed to do in year eight. Like once you have established yourself as a Hall of Famer, then you got to make do with less. You had the money. You could have, and I know receivers don't have. hit the open market. I understand all that. They tried to sign all of them, though. Try harder. Try harder. I don't care. The fact that guys, the fact that they spent all that money on defensive

free agents and drafted Sonny Stiles is crazy to me. And I love Sunny Stiles. I think he's amazing. But how much better would you feel about the commanders if Jordan Tyson was there in addition to like all I think I'd be pretty terrified about the offball linebackers of Sunny Stiles wasn't there. Figure that out later. Figure that out after you help your special quarterback land in an ecosystem that you feel good about instead of having to sign veterans in August because your offense is a wasteland. I actually do think this is interesting in terms of like what is actually more frustrating for a young quarterback to do? Is it like to carry an offense that is kind of mid and doesn't.

have a lot, but he's a special talent, which, like, again, we've seen Jaden Daniels do that. And is it, or it would it be better to have, like, a pretty goodish offense around and they add one or two free agents, but the defense is still giving up 29 points a game and he's got to go play shootouts every weekend. It's like, I know they did that as a rookie, but that does not feel like a good pressure to have on the young man. I think it's important to remember, though, that this was not for lack of trying. It's not like we had a certain bucket of money. We allocated all of that money to the defense. They still have, like, $40 million in cap space.

They tried to sign Alec Pierce. They tried to sign Romeo Dobbs. Those guys went other places. And who knows if Colonel Tate is available when they're picking in the top 10, maybe they pick Colonel Tate. He wasn't. And this team specifically, it's funny how different landing spots change the way that you look at a draft pick.

Jordan Tyson landing on the Saints, I'm like, let's roll. I cannot wait to see this. In Washington, all I'd be thinking about is his hands. hamstring just popping in like week three. And then like after McCorn was hurt last year and Jane Daniels hurt last year, just the idea of drafting an oft injured receiver for this team specifically, I can understand them being like, not my tempo.

I'm, I'm going to go with the crazy looking linebacker instead. It's a valid point that they did try to do these things. But when you look at like if the, if the commander's spending this off season was a pie chart, there would be like one slice of pie for the offense. and the rest of it would all just be defensive spending. And it would just be nice if it felt a little more balanced. And I do think Jaden is special and amazing. And I wish that he had more to work with than he does in year three.

I think they're hoping that the change in structure does a lot of lifting and that he can do the rest of it. And that's the story they're telling themselves. One other thing I wanted to mention, this would never register for me. Like, quarterbacks work with their centers during training camp all the freaking time. It happens. It's like a very baseline part of training camp practice. Watching Jaden Daniels take under center snaps from commander's practices, though, I was like,

oh, this matters. This is like he does it so seldomly to this point in his career. Like I'm actually interested in Jaden Daniels working on the center exchange under center. So I hope there's more of it. And I, like I said, I think it's flying under the radar. But David Blow very quietly and just an interesting person in the NFL landscape. He was their assistant quarterbacks coach up until the holidays last year. And now he's the offensive coordinator calling plays.

Like that's an insane trajectory. Even in a world where young coaches are getting opportunities left and right, that's still a crazy trajectory. The two youngest offensive coordinators in the NFL right now. I don't know how old Davis Webb is. How old is Davis Webb? So Davis Webb's in that same conversation. Davis Webb is actually older than David Blow.

and both of them are older than Declan Doyle. So yes, the two youngest offensive coordinators in the NFL right now, they just want that Ben Johnson eat, man. That's what they're after. All roads lead back to Ben. Listen, if this 22-year-old kid who was on the Bear staff, I'll hire him. It's like the Sean McVeigh thing,

except everyone's getting 10 years younger than the guys that they were hiring off that tree. The last thing I'll say about Washington, sunny styles is the coolest-looking player I have seen at training camp. Oh my God. Don't get me started. Just watching him on the field for, he had the rolled up jersey.

And so we have like the 90s football movie like exposed midriff and him choosing to wear 52 in this era. Just the sheer amount of respect I have for that. Like that man looks like a linebacker. And I am very excited. He's still, you know, we'll talk more about all this stuff. And I'm itching to like download the things I've talked to people about on these shows and when in reality we got a month to kind of spool it out. But it's fun kind of where he's at right now. The mental side, it's going to come along slowly.

We know that at that position in the NFL. It's not that he's behind. It's just that it's going to be a process. But in talking to one of their coaches today, him kind of figuring out his physical limits and where they exist and the process of what that looks like, he had a PBU in practice. earlier this week where it was like he made a play on a ball that just the range you shouldn't be able to do as a linebacker and so it's just one of those moments where it's like oh shit i can do that here and he's just like he's kind of just checking those off and like racking those up and i think watching him figure it out over time is going to be a really fun process he's

he's an animal and i i will not be called anti sunny styles just because i'm worried about jaden I won't. We're putting that on you right now. I won't allow it to happen. Derek, what's your next one here? The story that teams are telling themselves right now. I'm going to stick with NFC offense is changing. The Philadelphia Eagles are telling themselves that Jalen Hertz can do what Lamar Jackson did in

2023 with Todd Monkin, where it's an offense that I think is probably going to be a different style of dropback passing game. I think it's going to be a little bit more fuller. I think they expect the quarterback to have more ownership over the offense in a way that Lamar Jackson took over in 2020, moving to that offense. And so I think that, and obviously, you know, we can get to the AJ Brown element of in a minute, but I just think the overall construction of the offense, what they're going to put on the quarterback, how it's going to look is just going to be different. And I think we're, we probably overrate a little bit how much it's going to be under center.

Like Jordan Love was under center like 20% of the time of his passing attempts, I think last year, which is more than Jalen Hertz, but not like, it's not like he was Matthew Stafford. It wasn't like they, they were more. more of a gun run team and that style of team the Packers were, then they're probably closer to the Eagles than we think. But it's still a different offense that puts more on the quarterback. It's going to be, at least it was in Green Bay, more vertical offense outside of just nine balls.

It's going to be a little bit more pure play action. So they're just telling themselves that a player that really up until last year, it did feel like was getting better every year. Like it added one little thing to his game, like pocket presence got slightly better, or his accuracy in this way got a little bit better. he was getting the ball out quicker and quick game. And it just felt last year was a little bit stagnant.

So they're hoping that like, okay, we're going to restart the offense again. He can go do it and he can make another improvement. Do you think, what is your confidence level in that happening? Because you framing it that way, I think I'm trying to step back and just be honest about my own views about Jalen Hertz and how I see him. And I think that I've, you know, I don't think it's any secret that I feel like he's been kind of a limited quarterback in the way that he approaches the position, the things he's to do what he can access all of that stuff.

But I also think it's, we should admit that the way that they've played over the last three or four years also just hasn't asked him to do a ton of that. And so I think it's a combination of, you know, is it that he can't do it or that he won't do it, right? Like is that he can't do it or is he hasn't been asked to do it. I think that's one consideration. I think the other one is he didn't play particularly well last year, but it was an offensive ecosystem that was objectively bad. And so, like, does he deserve a little bit more grace in the fact that he didn't improve last year?

Because we give that grace to other quarterbacks. In other situations that are just unhealthy as an offense, we give the quarterback's grace for not playing particularly well in those circumstances. If you improve the situation because we're running a system that makes it just a little bit easier on all of the offensive skill position talent, could we see a better, different version of Jalen Hertz? I probably have more skepticism about that than I might for other quarterbacks, but I think it would be unfair to just rule it out completely. I think for me it's a lot more like, I think I'm just skeptical of what I think the ceiling of it is, even if it does start to look like even if he does make some improvements.

Where Lamar was the MVP in 2023, how many notches down is J-1 Hertz, even if the trajectory is similar? Right. And that's the thing. Like I think it could be a similar trajectory. And I think the Ravens got to a point with Lamar. where it was like, they kind of kept doing the Greg Roman thing because they had had so much success with that style, like what they were doing early on that they kept just kind of tinkering with that same style. And they were like, it'll work out eventually. It'll work out eventually. It'll work out eventually. And I think it got to a point where it's too stale. And I think maybe the Eagles have gotten there with the, it's just going to be like, and throw RPO's and throw nine balls. And it's like, it's got to be something else. And so I think them potentially asking Hertz to do it. Again, I think for a long time, he did get better. And I think for me, the difference for probably my perspective versus like,

like general perspective on Hertz is that his starting point, I think in general for a lot of people might have been like quarterback 18 and the improvements year over year got him to like quarterback 8. And for me, it was probably more like he started at like quarterback 22 and climbed up to like quarterback 13. So I think the maybe level is just a little bit lower. But again, he's always gotten better for the most part. And I'm at least willing like one more time for an offense that should be a lot difference to be like to give him the chance to go and be a different player than we've seen from him so far. I think this goes back to something. that you two and I have been at odds about since I joined the show is like,

what's your goal for Jalen Hertz? Like, are you trying to put Jalen Hertz in the conversation for NFL MVP and top five in Sandoz's quarterback rankings or are you trying to win the Super Bowl? Because like, I don't need Jalen Hertz to be all that good to win a Super Bowl, right? Like if he's quarterback with this team, I think you do. Yeah, you do. I agree with that. I think you do need him to be better than he's been

if you're going to win with this roster. Why? Because they don't have A.J. Brown. Yeah. I think that you just don't, you can't. When you had A.J. Brown and you had Devante Smith and you had the running game that looked like it did in that season, J.1. Hertz was allowed to be the very specific type of quarterback that he was in that

situation. With this group, I think he has to do more. things and has to have more layers to his game in order for the offense to reach that level of success. That's probably fair. And I don't mean to minimize the loss of A.J. Brown. I just said on a show earlier this week how high I am on Devante Smith, though. And like if Devante Smith plays at the level that I think he's capable of, and you can piece

it together the rest of the way down. And obviously, a huge part of this is the running game being better than it was last year. But, like, I think the Eagles could win the Super Bowl if Jalen Hertz is the 13th best quarterback in the league this year. That's not crazy for me to believe. The Seahawks just did it last year with Sam Darnold. If you have the best defense in football, that is possible. But they might. They're going to be on that short.

Yes. I actually agree with that, but I think what it would require for Jalen Hertz to play at that level, he has to be a different player. Like him playing the same way that he's always played, given the talent, I find it really difficult for him to like play. and produce like the 13th best quarterback unless the offensive line is like magically the best in the league again and macaille lemon is like the rookie of the year which like it's not off the table i suppose but i think you're asking a lot i do think i will acknowledge my vision is is baking in a lot of hope that the offensive line looks more like what we remember and again the running back is more devastating than it was last year like i am counting on other elements to buoy Jalen Hertz the way that they did in

2024 and even before that. But I don't know. I just like I don't need Jalen Hertz to play like anything resembling a top five quarterback to be really high on Philadelphia. And it just feels like there's a disconnect there. I really like the Lamar parallel here. I hadn't thought about it in those terms. And I really like that because I just think we forget how frustrated.

and down a lot of people were on Lamar Jackson before Todd Monkin got there. Like I think that that dip, the heights of the Greg Roman offense, winning the MVP, and then I think we forget how low the dip was after. And he was banged up, but that was part of it.

But I was just looking up while you guys were talking. Where do you think Lamar Jackson ranked in EPA per dropback during the 2022 season? Among players of the 100 dropbacks, so the year before Monkin got there? You're giving me the concept. that it was probably bad. So I'm going to guess, I don't know.

I still think it was okay because he's Lamar. I'm going to guess it was like 14th. I'm going to say like 10th. 22nd. What? Really? 22nd. Yeah.

I think we forget how rough it looked there by the end. And again, I think that maybe we're a little bit fat quicker to give Lamar grace in a situation like that because we had seen him be the MVP of the league. but Jalen Hertz may deserve the same level of grace. And like I, it's similar for the exact reasons that you're talking about, Derek. Like the Ravens never had to do this because Greg Roman never got hired away. But let's just play this out hypothetically. Let's just say that the Greg Roman offense wins the Super Bowl, right?

The way that you want to play. He gets hired away. Your choice after that as your offensive coordinator, the way that you wanted to play, would almost certainly be whoever on the staff, you thought could carry over the way that you were playing before. And then if it didn't work out, maybe you would then feel compelled to be like, all right, it's time to pivot, right? It's time to do it.

The Ravens came to it naturally because it kind of ran out of road without that level of success. But I don't think the Eagles pathway is all that different to the choice that the Ravens had to make before that 2023 season when they just simply realized that version of offensive run out of road. But I think we didn't really heap some. of that failure on Lamar Jackson and the way that we have heaped it on to Jalen Hertz. I think that that's totally fair.

And again, like, we, it was easier to give Lamar Jackson the benefit of the doubt because we've seen him win the MVP. And I don't think we've seen Jalen Hertz play at that level. But like, we've seen him be much better than he was last year. He was second team all pro in 2022. Yeah, like, he got close one year. And so like, it's, we've seen him be so much better than he was last year. And again, I still have some reservations about like what his ceiling really is.

but I do want to give him the chance to be like, listen, this team needed some sort of shot in the ass to be something different and to be something new. And he's never really been a bad player. And again, I think before last year he had consistently improved, I'm willing to give him the chance the same way that like, you know, that we did with Lamar. And again, because I've been like the most Lamar guy possible, I was like, of course he's going to take to it. But I want to be fair to Jalen Hertz and give him the chance that like he could absolutely do that and play like the eighth best quarterback this year. Jalen just unfortunately is torn between people who want him to be a top five quarterback and people who don't think he's like a top 20 quarterback. And if you make peace with the idea that the truth is somewhere in the middle, it's just not, I don't know, it's just not that dramatic for me. I'm inching toward a, I'm inching toward Jalen Hertz has been overrated for so long that he's becoming underrated take.

I'm not quite there yet. That's kind of what I'm dancing around too. but I also, I'm willing to admit that part of my dislike is strong. I'm not even going to go there. I think part of my resistance to J-1-Hertz is that I just don't like how he plays. I'm just like fully willing to admit that. And I wonder if are we going to see him play slightly differently this year and will that kind of reshape the way that his game hits my brain?

I'm open to that. Like I am open to that. I'm going to Philly on Friday. and it is one of the stops I'm most excited about. For like everything that we're talking about here is that all of these offensive transformations are interesting in their own way, that the Philly one is at or near the top of the list

for everything because of all the things that we're saying here. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat about a few more of the stories that teams are telling themselves. All right, Dave, what's your next one here, buddy? As recently as a week ago, I would have said this with my tongue, planted in my cheek, that the Indianapolis Colts are telling themselves that it can be September

of 2025 by science or magic. But apparently- I had the same one. We must believe the first half of last year was real. We have to believe it's real. But like, it might be true. Like, every single person that's rolled through Colts camp since it opened is saying that Daniel Jones looks the same. Like, he's not limited by the Achilles injury at all.

He was full go at the beginning. And I know, you know, the ramp up period takes so long that we've probably only had two days in pads. But everybody that's rolled through there is like, yeah, Daniel Jones looks like nothing ever happened. I think like Ben Solac said, if I didn't know he had been hurt, I would not know that he was hurt. And we don't have to extrapolate too much. But that is a, it's a very encouraging place for the Colts to be, considering what they're up against. And if Daniel Jones is okay, now you can just. tell yourself that it doesn't matter that Alec Pierce isn't practicing yet and say, all right,

this will all fit together in September when we need it to. The pie chart you're referring to with that joke on 30 Rock is the NBC business plan. And most of the pie chart and that is the biggest loser. And then a smaller part is make it to 1997 again through science or magic and then it's everything else. The Colts one, the biggest part of the pie is making it September 20, 25 through science or magic. The second biggest part is Josh Downs to the moon and then it's everything else. That's the slight difference in how that one is constructed versus the 30 rock joke.

Well, and so that's where I think the magic has to kind of come in. Like, I think if you just, if they ran back the exact same roster and you were saying, can they be as good as they were in September? I think even then I would be like, man, I don't know. They were running hot, even if we like disregard whatever we think of Daniel Jones's health. Well, now Alex Pierce is banged up. Michael Pittman is not on the roster and they're changing out their right tackle. That seems like a lot of change for an offense that was already kind of teetering on this being a very winning in a way that did not feel fully sustainable, even if it was like they were doing some seriously good stuff.

Painted myself into an unfortunate corner with this one where I love Josh Downs and I had so much fun watching the Colts offense over the first half of last year that I have no choice but to just do the I pretend I do not see it with the downside. case. Like, I just don't have a choice. Like, the teams are telling every meme while we talk about the Colts. That's a, the cults are having to tell themselves this story of all the ones we're going to discuss here. The Colts one is the one where I'm like, I'm in, like, that's fine. Like, I'm going to keep telling myself that one as well. I'm going to live in the Colts delusion or potential delusion along with them because I don't want to accept or face

the alternate reality. Josh Downs not being good enough and not seeing that version of the Colts again because I want it back. I'm not ready to buy in yet, but like I said, a week ago, I was rolling my eyes really hard at what the Colts were doing. And Daniel Jones, at least being healthy enough to go through practice without limitations is it's a very encouraging step in the right direction. I'm not ready to put it to the side completely. But it's a hell of a lot better than Daniel Jones throwing to a backup tight end while

Anthony Richardson gets the reps. So it's a nice. and the Kirk cousins, like, I can't be under center. We must run the entire offense out of the pistol post-Akillies injury. Like, there are worse versions of this than the one that we are seeing in Indianapolis. If you want to, as long as we're telling ourselves optimistic things, if I'm Chris Ballard, I'm in that building saying he is like he's such a better athlete than he gets credit for. Like, DJ can beat this quicker than your average quarterback.

And maybe that's true. I'm not ready to get there yet. And like I said, even if DJ, is healthy, now we're still worried about Alec Pierce. How is Josh Downs going to do? How does this all look if you take the Michael Pitman jinga piece out of the offense? Is Jonathan Taylor going to be pissed off each day that he doesn't have his own contract extension? I don't know.

That's all, those are all things worth keeping in mind. But the fact that Daniel Jones can run the offense is, it's way better than where I thought we'd be a month or two ago. And I think that is a good point about him being an athlete. like the two quarterbacks that like we bring up recently for the Achilles thing are Aaron Rogers and Kirk Cousins and they were both like 35 plus and not really all that. I mean, Rogers was a pretty good athlete early in his career, but by that point in 40. Yeah, not in 40. And Kurt Cousins never really was. And so of course those guys were going to look different. So like I could take offense to that, by the way.

He would claim that he didn't run because he chose not to. I promise you. He won't. That's, he's a confident man to have played as good at NFL quarterback as he has for a long time. So I get it. I get it. But I think with Daniel Jones, it's like, he also doesn't even need to necessarily be at peak athleticism. Like, he just needs to be a credible enough athlete that some of their RPO and gun stuff can just like he can end the boot stuff to like freak defenses out just enough. And that's really all that it has to be for the offense to work together. I think my only issue is really not even necessarily how healthy he looks off of this injury. It's that he's hurt all the time.

Like he's basically never had a fully healthy season in the NFL except for the 20, what was it, 22? when, you know, Dable was there. Like, that's really the only time that he's been incredibly healthy. So I think even my concern is that even if they can recreate September of 2025, I just wonder if we're going to end up in a similar place by November of 2025.

Just another thing that I'm pretending isn't real. So it was just, just bypass that. Let's stick in the AFC with potential AFC contenders. I'm going to go with the Buffalo Bills. And this is the one where literally somebody said it this week. Josh Allen, on with Joe Brady. with Kevin Clark, if you keep knocking at the door, eventually it's going to open. That is the story the bills have to tell themselves.

They have no choice but to believe that is true. And I, this is one where I'm kind of with them, right? Like I think I've always kind of saw it, seen it this way where like, all you can do is just keep getting close and hope that one of those years you break through. It's not guaranteed that's going to happen. But if you're the bills, Derek, that's really the only story you can tell yourself. is that everything that happened falling short the ways that we have last year when all the quarterbacks weren't playing, the fact that we couldn't do it that year, that wasn't our only chance. Like if we keep getting close, if we're still a lead on offense because we have this guy at quarterback with the tweaks that we're making on defense, if we keep getting close, eventually this is going to happen for us. That's not guaranteed to be true, but that is the story that the bills are having to tell themselves.

I mean, I will say the fact that they've done it for this long does speak to a pretty impressive level of like, maturity and just like perseverance. Like almost every other elite quarterback, even if the quarterback still generally plays at that level, like their teams have had these ups and downs. Like Lamar Jackson has missed a playoff a number of times. Like Joe Burrow and all their struggles over the past handful of years, like being an elite quarterback and being a guy that can consistently get you there doesn't always work that way.

But the fact that the team had always found some way to kind of come back and be the same level of team that they had been was incredibly impressive. I mean, I think Shil Kapati on his podcast this week. said that it was like over the last tweet yeah was it like over the last six years they've been top four in EPA per per drive that is that is the level of consistency that feels almost impossible and again I think if you had just said if we had just said that X team was top four in EPA per play as an offense for six years in a row almost all of us would have been like yes they've won the Super Bowl at least one time and so it's to your point it's like they've been of the quality of team to do it

and so you kind of just have to have the like the wherewithal to keep continuing to do it and I do think the team is good enough to get there again this year because again he's as good as he is. I at least appreciate and I don't want to contradict myself too badly because I do still think the way the way it all went down with Sean McDermott leaving. I didn't love the way Terry Pagula handled that and like that whole transition to Joe Brady was very odd. Having said all of that, I appreciate that the bills are acting as if there's urgency and some of that is their own doing right like you have to trade for DJ more because your other decisions at wide receiver haven't really panned out but there's clearly urgency in in the building from switching head coaches bringing in a new play caller on the defensive side of the ball you swing a big trade for a proven veteran receiver the bills always bring in veteran defenders but they did it again this year so I I can at least appreciate that there's a yearning there like you can feel how badly the bills want to get it done I don't know if that means anything but it's better like it's better than being optimistic in August

just rolling the ball back out there and like well we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas like no the bills are trying shit so at least there's that yeah I the other story that they've had to tell themselves that they have been telling themselves for many of the last five years I think she'll allude to this as well if we have Josh Allen on an offensive line we will be an elite offense that has been consistently true and I think the other wrinkle to that and this is the difference from the chiefs, right? Like the chiefs, I think that was the thought process post buck Super Bowl.

If we keep this guy upright, we will be great on offense. But the wrinkle to that is, as the corollary of if we have the offensive line is also if we have a running game that is in coherence with that offensive line. The chiefs have not. The chiefs have offensive line talent. Their running game has never been to the point that they can lean on it as a byproduct of that offensive line and the way that the bills have. have been able to over the last few years.

So the bills bet that if we have a high-level offensive line and a high-level running game with this quarterback, he can be throwing to end to the roster guys and we're still going to be a playoff team. That has mostly been true. And I think the hope this year, on top of the defensive transformation, which I'm sure we'll talk about a million times

between now and the start of the season, I'll be in Buffalo on, can't keep it all straight next Monday. The other part of it is the DJ Moore element of it. And I'm open to the idea that we have not seen the best version of Dalton Kincaid in the NFL. I am open to that idea because on a per round basis. Are we doing I'm ready to get hurt again? Because that's, let's do it.

That's crime. That's crime. I'm ready to get hurt again. the Kyle Pitts breakout season from last year for Dalton Kincaid next year if he stays healthy. Let's just write it down right now. That's been the problem. He could not say he got hurt last year.

Before he got hurt last year, his per route metrics were really, really good. So him, Dalton Kincaid healthy, DJ Moore in the building, plus all the other things that made the bill's offense go. Let's roll. I'm ready to get hurt again officially. Derek, you got any more as stories the teams are telling themselves? I've got one more quick one and this was one that we've beaten to death,

but the chiefs are telling themselves that the past catchers are fine and that last year just things just didn't go our way and that was it. Which like I kind of get like Xavier Worthy's shoulder exploded on like the third play of the NFL season. And so I kind of get why they are willing to tell themselves this, all the Rashi Rice stuff. I, you don't get to be like all our receivers are hurt when the receivers weigh less than me. When they all, yes, when they all weigh 180 pounds. Listen, this is not a story. that I personally believe. I've been on this show many a times being like they need to get bigger.

They needed to be the Mike Evans team, something. They needed to do something. And obviously they didn't. But they are trying to tell themselves that kind of what you were just saying with the Buffalo Bills is that if we have an offensive line that can keep our quarterback upright and we have a run game, which they've hopefully just paid for with Kenneth Walker. Like I think part of, I think we can argue that some of the run game construction issues with the chiefs are because they can't stretch the field.

So teams can just load the box because they don't rest. respect them. And I think that was partly true. But if teams are going to do that now, Kenneth Walker might break off a 60-yard run. And so there's at least some element of that you can buy. But they are really just telling themselves that Xavier Worthy is going to be healthy and take a step, which again, I think given that he's a little bit undersized, I'm going to have questions about. And that, like, Tyquan Thornton can play a significant amount of snaps and that's going to be okay. I struggle to believe that, but that is what they are trying to tell themselves. Are you plus or minus 165 right now, Derek?

you've been in the weight room this off season yeah i'm currently one like 156 right now i've actually lost a little bit of weight but so you're you're not that far off from where zavier worthy is well but that's the thing i usually use the NFL season as like my bulking period so by the end of the NFL season i might be like Xavier worthy that's such a that's such a great euphemism for what the NFL season is i'm gonna be like not taking my care of period for david and i it's just in a different way. I'm not eating like an asshole. I'm bulking. That's what it is. It's that this is the thing. It's like during the season, I don't want to think about like this is when I eat and this is what I do that. It's like, no, I'm just going to eat when I eat and it's going to be what it is and I'm

just going to be in the weight room and it's going to be enough. Yeah, the call the chiefs one, we've talked about it a million times. I think it's, that's one that you absolutely should include in something like this. I'll believe it when I see it. Like the fact that the Kenneth Walker thing and a healthy Xavier worthy is enough. Maybe it is. Maybe it is. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe it is. Cyrus Allen having an injury scare shouldn't be a news cycle. Like if you feel good about your wide receiver. You're like such a roundbook year or whatever.

Yeah, there should be no way. I don't know if you guys saw the clip of it. Patrick Mahomes, under center, no play action drop back today during practice. Okay. Everybody's going back to the old ways. The sensation that's sweeping the nation. Dave, you got any more? We've beat these to death too.

I don't really feel the need to talk about them in detail. but because of the show, it's worth saying the Bengals and Cowboys are telling themselves that if their defenses are units, if they are NFL units instead of smoking craters in the ground, they have a shot to make a lot of noise. We've said it 10 million times, though, but like they absolutely believe that. And maybe they should, based on what I've seen out of Dexter Lawrence at camp so far. And which one do you believe more? That's what I want to ask. Which one do you believe more?

Don't make me. It's a great question. Don't make me choose. I don't know. I'm excited about both and therefore terrified about both for basically the same reasons. Kind of in the same boat. I have to say the Cowboys because of the Christian Parker element of it. Like I can't back off now.

You know, like I have been talking about this guy for like three years as somebody that I think is a chance to be a really, really good NFL defensive coordinator. And so getting gun shy a month before the season starts and starting to be wishy-washy about that, it would just be a lack of courage that even for me would be embarrassing. Well, to defend you, even if you didn't have that about Christian Parker, at least he's like a complete unknown, right?

Like maybe Al Golden isn't like the worst play call in the world, but like we have more of a sense of what he is. Christian Parker could be the coordinator for one of the worst defenses in the league last year. That happened. Right, whereas Christian Parker, clean slate, maybe he's got something. I do have the Christian Parker

Caleb Downs thing I'm in I'm bought in let's see how this whole thing goes I'm I'm ready I just I don't want to speak on it and have it disappear into the ether but I would like it very much if both of those teams were as entertaining as they look right now by the way the core the the parallel to the chief Cyrus Allen thing

is it shouldn't me sitting there talking about the Cowboys defense and the capabilities of the Cowboys defense should not depend on the excitement around Jay Sean Barham to the degree that it currently does. That is fair. But it does. But it does. It's a very Cowboys thing for the third round pick to be a household name five days into training

camp. Third round off ball linebacker that is kind of a tweener, has like a weird skill set. It's a tried and true part of every single Dallas Cowboys offseason. We get excited about that guy and then it never happens. then we're what like four years in with uh with maris lea fow and it's like ah he may he's he an off ball linebacker is he an edge player like i hope we don't follow the same exact path that was that was all before christian parker buddy it's all different now it wasn't before you though you were having to live that life for a little bit more than i'd care to relive right now i got two other really

quick ones we've talked about this one a little bit but this is one of the plainer ones of the entire off season. The Broncos are telling themselves that we were a Jalen Waddle away from the Super Bowl. Oh, yeah, 100%. And a Bohner example on the show yesterday, yeah. Yeah, that's, I've not listened to yesterday's show, but I will be doing that while I'm in the car today. It's, I mean, this is a clear and easy one.

Like, that's all they did. So Bo Nix coming back, Bo NICs being healthy and J-Waddle being on the team is enough for us to potentially be the best team in the AFC. I don't think it's ridiculous. No, and Dave and I even joked about it. The offense doesn't even need to look different. You just need to give the snaps that we're going to Marvin Mims and Troy Franklin to Jalen Waddle. And poof, the offense is great.

Derek, I want to ask you this because we've, among all of the drum beats, and you guys are going to talk about Training Camp storylines a little bit later this week. We're going to try to scoop all of those up in one net in one show because we haven't done a ton of that, as we've sprinkled those in here and there with the other shows that we've done. How much do you buy into the Pat Bryan is going to, going to eat into like the Cortland Sutton snaps and role thing and whether that is potentially true and whether that would be a good thing for the Broncos. So him eating into Cortland Sutton role specifically, I think it does make some things interesting. But I actually, I brought up Pat

Ryan on maybe our second year's X Factor or something show. One of those shows where we would bring up players like that. I actually do think it's kind of important for the Broncos to have like a bigger bodied guy like him who can, he can play a little bit in the slot. He can play a little bit as a if he wants to. And if he can take a little bit of the load off of Cortland Sutton having to be your dig runner and having to be your nine ball runner on every single play, like if you can actually potentially use Cortland Sutton in some different ways or just take him off the field and give him a rest. Like Pat Bryant potentially taking that step is nice. And I think maybe he can do it. And it seems like they really like him. Like it seems like they are pretty bought into what his skill set can be

in that offense. Last one I had. This is one that seemingly every, year two number one pick quarterback, their team has to tell him, to tell themselves going into year two. The Titans are telling themselves that Cam Ward is the next year two turnaround story. The Titans are telling themselves that Brian Daible is our Ben Johnson. Brian Daible is our Sean McVeigh for year two, Jared Goff. That is what the Titans are having to tell themselves right now about how this season is going to go. And that's what Derek is also telling himself.

I am extremely telling myself that. I mean, I've already, again, Dave and I were talking a little bit about Cornell Tate yesterday. Like, he feels like the type of receiver that can have a cascade effect on everybody else. It slots in Wondell Robinson nice. I O. Manor can be more of like a third receiver. If all of that happens, I think I have enough faith that this will go well, but I am having to tell myself that story. Because I'm looking at the center and right guard situation and I'm like, this is my version of with the Colts, like, I don't see it. Well, with the center and right guard and the Titans, I'm just like, I don't see it.

Cam Ward's going to be fine. I'll say this. I mean, this will be plenty of time to talk about shit like this over the next month or so, but the Titans lose Bill Callahan, right? And so that would typically be like, oh, shit. You know, we lost one of the best offensive line coaches of all time and what is that going to look like. The guy, one of the assistants in the NFL that I think is, we have not talked about enough and has been drastically underrated,

both for the job that he did. And then in talking to other coaches, just like the reputation he has with guys that he's worked with in the passed is Carmen Brissilla, who's the offensive line coach for the Titans. He, I mean, when the Giants last year and the Giants over the last couple of years after he got there after that staff in Vegas got fired, the Josh McDaniels staff, I mean, the Giants offensive line was truly one of the worst units in professional football before he got there. And there were some personnel improvements, but the personnel improvements were like Jermaine

Illuminaur playing the best football of his life. It wasn't, we drafted a superstar in the top five. The guy they drafted in the top 10 didn't work prior to the team. to him getting there and they needed Germain Illuminaur for it all to come together. Like this was an offensive line that was Germain Aluminor, Greg Van Roten, like John Runyon is a very mid-tier

or a free agent pickup. This is not a group of five first round talents that they were getting to play at a pretty decent level with the Giants over the last couple of years. Like Carmen Bressel did a very good job of elevating that group. And so even if there are some personnel concerns about where the Titans offensive line sits on the interior right now. That's one where I think people will be surprised at the floor lifting ecosystem

that exists in Tennessee because they have an offensive line coach who has shown an ability to do it. I hope you're right. So many teams, it's like I'm holding little butterflies in my hands just hoping that this all means something in a month when this stuff goes live. All right. That is all we've got for today. Like I mentioned, Derek and Dave are going to be chatting about some free, some training camp storylines that have popped up over the first week or so of camp on tomorrow's show. I will be in Baltimore and driving to Philadelphia, so appreciate those guys holding it down.

We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.