The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The team DNA changers in the 2024 NFL season

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

Description: A team's two or three best players aren't the only ones who determine how its season goes. Sometimes, a new guy comes in and changes what a unit can do and how it feels. Put another way, he changes the unit's DNA. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen highlight their 2024 DNA changers on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys today. We're going to be talking today with Derek Kass and our new co-hosts here. If you have not listening to the shows that Derek has done, he's done a phenomenal job so far. Very excited for you guys to get to know him and just the way he thinks about the game over the next few months. And this show is his idea. We were talking about things we wanted to do. And he mentioned that he wanted to talk about some guys that are new additions this off season, either in free agency or the draft, that have a chance to make their individual units on offense or defense feel different,

to change the DNA of what that group feels like. So that's what we're going to do today. We're going to pick 10 guys that we think have a chance to change how a certain offense or defense plays, but more so how a certain offense or defense feels. And I love the way that Derek thinks about this stuff. And he has a really good sense for what those sort of players look like and the impact that they have. So excited to get to that conversation with Derek.

Let's roll. Joining me now. It is my co-host here at a football show. It's Derek Klausen. Derek, how you doing, man? I'm doing great today. You know, it feels, we're feeling normal now. It's been a full week since I've been here.

This is what, the third show now. So it doesn't even feel like, you know, just kind of feels like we're here now. Feels like I'm ready for the season. I feel like an absentee co-host and like absentee coworker because I've been on the road so much over the last. Since you started here, like the entire time that you've been here. But I will be more present as we get a little bit closer to the season.

But I'm very excited about the idea that we're doing today. You and I had dinner a couple of weeks. weeks ago on Wednesday when we were in LA before we spent the day at Chargers and Rams training camp. We were just talking about different ideas and things we wanted to do. And you brought this up and I was very excited about it. And the concede is essentially which guys have been added to teams this off season that we think have a chance to change the DNA of their respective unit. For one reason or another, the addition of this player is going to make an offense or a defense or a team feel different than they felt the last couple years.

What stoked your excitement about this? What was the reason that you wanted to dig into this specifically? I just think talking about the personality of a team is the most fun way to talk about them. And we can always talk about the quality of teams, right? And there's going to be plenty of other free agency signings and draft picks that are just very obviously improved the quality of a team. But maybe the signing just kind of goes in line with what the team already does. and it doesn't really functionally change what we're going to get out of them.

Whereas I think it's more interesting to take the players who either bring some sort of specific skill set or some sort of attitude, some type of energy that's like, oh, this team is clearly going to be different because of this player or they brought in this player specifically because they wanted to be different. Like those are the guys to me that are better than needle movers. And it doesn't even have to be the best player on your unit. It can be your third, fourth, fifth best guy. it's just the guy who starts to change the way that things work for you. And I think those are

always the most interesting additions in any off season. The idea of like playstyle and how a unit feels has come up so often as I've talked to coaches over the last couple weeks, but also the last couple months. Sean McVeigh mentioned it to me, multiple head coaches on this trip. And I think that a lot of teams are really kind of becoming more in tune with that. It's like not just really the X's and O's, not necessarily the schematics of this, but how does it feel when you watch us play. What do we feel like as a unit? What's the effort? What's the physicality? And I do think that the best teams in the NFL have separated themselves in that area specifically. So those are kind of the things that we're considering here. It's like which guys are going to alter the feeling and the

style that you're going to see on either side of the ball, even if it's not necessarily rooted in any complicated X's and O's reason. So that was kind of on my mind as I was thinking about some of these guys and just how, again, the feeling that you have when you watch these guys. And there are certain players that jump out to me over the last couple years that I've always brought up as examples. Like, Drake Greenlaw, to me is that for the Niners. Like, he just, he, he imbues the team with, like, a certain personality because he's out there.

I was so like Dorrance Armstrong was like that for the Cowboys. Like, I'd watch him. And yeah, like, he's not Michael Parsons. He's not even to Marcus Lawrence. But this is a guy who kind of embodies what this team wants to feel like. And so I've got some weird ones on mine that are. certainly not like star level players, but I think it speaks to some of the stuff that we wanted to dig into today.

So this is your baby. This is what you want to talk about. You can kick things off for us. Who is the first player that came to mind for you as you started going down the road with this exercise? I'm going to start with, yeah, the impetus to why I even wanted to do this idea in the first place, which is a new Houston Texan's linebacker as he's all shire. Like this guy, to me, basically in what you just mentioned with Drake Greenlaw,

where when they had those three guys together in San Francisco, where it was Fred Warner, Greg Greenlaw, and the Zoschire. That was the fastest, nastiest, punch-you-in-the-mouth linebacker core that we've seen in a long time because we went through that like maybe six-year period where linebacker play just on the whole wasn't as physical really outside of like, you know, maybe you still had Bobby Wagner and KJ, right? Other than that, it just... Oh, how dare you not talk about Dante Hightower in this moment?

This is your chance. He's like a unicorn that I almost like, he transcends the era. He's in a special category. But really outside of, yeah, I mean, the Patriots and the Seahawks, there just weren't a lot of teams that were hitting you. And then very recently we got that trio in San Francisco. And Drey Greenlaw and Aziz Al-Shire kind of went back and forth about who was starting. You know, Al-Shire started a little bit when Drake Greenlaw was hurt,

but they were both really fantastic players. And, you know, last year, Shire kind of got to step out of the San Francisco. Francisco, you know, a little bucket that he was put into. And I think some people when he left were like, well, is he just kind of a D'Amico Ryan's guy? Like, was he just purely a guy who could play in the system? No, dude. You watch him in Tennessee and he is still very much bringing incredible speed like sideline to sideline range. He's very much a guy who when he sees something moving in the box, he's not afraid to step down and hit. Maybe once or twice a game, he kind of steps the wrong way and he's not going to be in the gap that he's supposed to be. But he's very much a guy who

is bringing an intensity when it comes to taking on blocks, tackling, running through the face when he's a blitzer. He is just very much a guy who operates at 100 miles an hour. And this to me, when I watched the Texan's defense, I think they kind of had some players who embody what the defense is supposed to be. Right. Like up front, you have Will Anderson. That is just a, he's bringing his hard hat. He's going to do the thing that he's supposed to do every single play, 100% effort. You have that up front. Cool. Jalen Petrie in the backland, goblin person. Like he is just, you can hear the Tasmanian devil sounds in his head when he sees someone running over the sometimes.

I just want to pull him aside every once in a while. Just be like, just take a breath. That's all I want. Are you? Just take a breath. Just feel like, are you all right over there? But I mean, he bodies the type of energy that you need. Again, he's not their best player.

But he just brings that, that energy. But at the second level, I feel like you didn't really have that. You know, Ryan's got some decent play out of Christian Harris last year. But he's just not the type of player where I'm like, whoa, he embodies the energy of this team. And I didn't actually. Cashman, same thing. Right. Cashman, Henry Toa Toa when he played, it's like, okay, he'll run around, but he doesn't really hit like that way. Shire kind of fixes all of those problems where he is very much the dude who is bringing a ton of energy, a ton of speed. He's one of the better tacklers in the NFL. And I really don't think, I actually think he's

kind of a better coverage player than any of the other guys that they threw out there. You know, he's not known for that. He's not Fred Warner, but he at least gives them a little bit more glue in the middle of the field than I think they were getting last year. So he to me kind of completes this. Now they have a guy at every level of defense who brings the exact type of energy that Dermico Ryans wants to bring to a defense. And that to me is the type of thing that is going to unlock this unit as a whole. And so that's why I think he's just such an important cog in this machine.

Even if he's by the end of the year, their fifth best player, he's just the type of guy at him. If he were the fifth best player, that would be ideal if you were this team and this staff. I knew you were doing this. I knew he was going to be on your list. actually was with the Texans earlier today, and I asked their defensive coordinator, Matt Burr specifically about what sort of stuff, maybe on an intangible level that a guy like Al Shire is giving to this defense. Let's listen to that just real quick. I don't know if you know our head coach was a linebacker. I do know that, yes. I'm familiar with his career, yes.

You know, so I think for him, too, to sort of have that proxy player on the field and what he looks for and his style. I mean, you listen to D'Amico all the time, like, rep our style, rep our style. to have someone for him that sort of brings that what he had in San Fran and what he was as a player and what his belief system is. It's just awesome. It's really cool. That idea of like rep our style, rep our style, and you have somebody that can really, again, the word I can come back to is like imbue the rest of the unit with that sort of feeling. He seems to be that. And we didn't play this part, but he matched him to me that because he was so fluent in the system, there isn't a lot of acclimation on an exos and O's level. And that freed him up to kind of

be the leader and the communicator they needed at the center of all of this. Watching them in the defensive huddle, he's calling defensive plays. So just having that not only as a real bit of energy, but also as somebody who can be fluent in a lot of these ideas and communicate them to the rest of the defense outside of Jimmy Ward, who was really the only guy with that sort of carryover last year. It's absolutely huge. And not only do you add a goblin in the middle, you already have goblin person, Jailin Petra, in the back end.

De Nico Audrey is a goblin person. I mean, it's only six games that we won't see him, but we got a lot of goblins now on that defense. And I think that Aziz al-Shire really embodies that. So I'm not at all surprised that you wanted to include him here. All right. My first one here, this is, I'm doing some weird shit over the next hour or so. I'm going with Will Disley. Los Angeles Chargers tight end Will Disley.

And here's the reason that I'm doing this. I went back and I watched some Chargers off. this off season. And the run game was disgusting. Like, just like I had a completely unacceptable level on so many different fronts. And one of the things I kept coming back to is you'd watch their tight ends try to block. And it was unplayable. Just the lowest level of contribution you could get from a blocking tight end across the entire room. It didn't matter who it was. Gerald Lever was probably their best one. And I think that tells you a lot. But what they were, I don't even want to mention the names. It's not worth it.

It was so bad, and I think you could feel how that would affect other areas when they tried to run the ball. The Chargers had no money this off season. They were actively trying to shed salary in as many ways as they possibly could. The one significant thing they did in free agency was go out and give a multi-year contract to Will Disley to be there every down, blocking, receiving, like this is just an NFL tight end. And Will Disley is not a star by any stretch, but he is. I can't even describe to you how much better of a blocker Will Disley is than what they were getting out of that position last year. So the fact that that was the move, the one move that was splashy that Joe Hortiz, their new GM made this offseason, I think tells you everything you need to know about what type of team this wants to be and about how important somebody in that role is to play like that. So it might not seem like the craziest move of the most important move, but I think Will Disley truly has a chance with Joe Alth and other things to transform.

what we understand the Los Angeles Chargers offense to be in 2024. I think you actually nailed it. Look at Greg Roman's offenses in Baltimore. They always had blocking titans. Obviously, we always think of Mark Andrews, right? Like, he's not the greatest blocker. He's more of a middle of the field, yak type of guy.

But you look at a lot of the other Titans they had, whether it's like Hayden Hirsch, to me, was always a blocker kind of underneath type of guy. It guys like Josh Oliver. He's also there now, by the way. Right. In L.A. this is like the perfect embodiment of what Roman wants in his tight ends is like it would be nice to have one guy who can run a deep crossing route cool but everyone else needs to be able to push somebody else into the ground or at least five yards off of where they're at and Will Disley is like the perfect guy for that so I'm so glad you actually brought this up because the Chargers this is a team that I think desperately needed some attitude and when you go out and hire Jim Harbaugh and you go out and hire Greg Roman and then you draft Joe All first or fifth overall you're already kind of getting that this is just doubling.

and tripling down on. No, the offense is going to be significantly different than it was last year. And this doesn't even mean they're going to run the ball 700 times. It just means that when they run the ball, they want to be able to punch you in the mouth. They want to be able to win short yardage. They want to be able to win on the goal line. They want to be able to win when they run the ball. And they have made every little move they can to go out and do that. I'm looking at the numbers right now. The only outside free agent who got more than four million dollars guaranteed from the Los Angeles Chargers this offseason was Will Dissly. That's crazy.

That's crazy. More than $4 million. It was only Will Dissly. The fact that, can you imagine how badly you need something like this? If you have like two quarters that you found in your couch cushions, you're like, this is what I'm going to spend it on. Like that is, it says so much about their priorities. And that, that's why I just wanted to mention him.

Because like, there aren't that many guys in the NFL as we've gone away from bigger body tight ends who can do a little bit of everything. He's not great at anything, but he's really solid across the board. And again, I think it just says so much that this is the type of player that the Chargers wanted to go out and get with the first move they made in this regime. And I do think it has a chance to make them feel a little bit different on that side of the ball. All right, who's your next one here? Yeah, my next one is kind of along the same lines and actually in the same city. This is very much a player who maybe isn't all that great, all that flashy, but I think he's just a guy who kind of embodies what your team is supposed to be unless you do some other things.

stuff, that to me is ram safety camcurl. This is, I almost did him. And I actually have a ram on defense that I will follow up with. But camcurl, I think is a perfect person to mention here. So my thing with camcurl is, and I kind of got this like halfway through talking or like writing my notes on him and what I wanted to say. Every defense needs a henchman. Like just a guy who does every little odd job will hit you in the face will just be a pest. Like just annoying. right cam curl so much cam curl when you watch him in Washington is he the fastest guy no is he the biggest or most physical he tries but he's not actually like a superimposing cam chancellor guy but dude he is just annoying like when they when they roll him down to the line of skirmage and

put him on a tight end hands in your face he is going to make you earn this rep when they need him to go up and carry the seam he's going to put hands in your chest and make you earn it like when he comes down into the box and tackles he's going to make you earn it when they put him in the box and like really put or even put him on the edge and really make him be part of the run fit immediately, he'll go try to hit a guard if he has to. He'll go punch a tight end in the face. Like he will take back to the space as much as a safety can in the run game. Like he to me is just the type of guy that lets you do a little bit of everything. And in coverage, again, is he you're going to throw him at center field and he's going to

run around there like Marcus Williams? No, he's not going to do that. But you can they wouldn't ask him to. This team played more split safety coverages before the snap than any team in the NFL last year. He has limitations, yeah, and that's why he wasn't hugely valued in free agency. But for this team specifically, they can hide a lot of his deficiencies and they can reap the benefits of the mindset. And that was something explicitly stated to me when I was there. They were trying to seek these guys out. And he was one of the players that they mentioned because they just want more assholes over there. And you lose Aaron Donald.

And yeah, that's tough. It's going to be really hard to replicate Aaron Donald. But look at the guys that they added on that side of the ball. On the back end, Cam Carole is a perfect example. I think they want their pukas on defense this year. Who is going to come in and change the way that we feel? And it's hard to... That's not the most important thing.

The most important thing is replicating Aaron Donald's production. But at the same time, you want a little bit of this. And that's why the second guy on my list, or one of them, was Jared Verse. Because Jared Verse is this exact thing up front. Even if he's a rookie, I totally get that. But if you're looking for ass kickers, that's exactly what he is. I think there's more nuance to his game than players of this ilk are typically credited with as a power rusher. But some of the hand placement stuff and the counters that he has off of that, it's not the deepest toolbag, right?

He's not OCEU and Yorra. But I think he's going to give you enough from a nuanced perspective combined with pocket crushing just over and over and over again. I was there for two days. The amount of times his name came up for guys on the sideline, just like noticing him during reps in 11 on 11, he brings it. And you have that in the front end, guy like Cam Curl on the back end. So I'm kind of bullish on this unit overall is that I think that with a couple of the pieces that they added, there's just a little bit of a different DNA that they could have this year even in a post Donald world. I love that because like you said, you're never going to replace Aaron Donald trying to find another thing that Aaron Donald is. You kind of need to change the chemistry of what's going on there.

And them just investing in ass kickers is really the best way to do that because Aaron Donald, I mean, one in a billion different ways. but he was a lot of like just quicker than you faster than you and obviously had the power to like get all the way there with that but that was more his game if you're now just bringing in a bunch of ass kickers i think it's perfect and i think you really need a bigger defensive end like this you need your tray flowers is if you want to go even down you know the archetype like a john kaminski just the dude who is very willing to punch you in the mouth every single play first down second down run pass doesn't matter like you just need a guy with this type of attitude with heavy hands Jared versus absolutely passes that test.

Is he going to be the 14 sack bending the edge? Like, probably not. But if that's not what they want their defense to be, and they want to be these pocket crushers who are just suffocating you and doing a bunch of cool stuff in the back end, versus kind of like the best that they could hope for in a class like this. So I think this is absolutely perfect. Were you a little bit surprised that Cam Curl didn't have more interest in free agency this year

and didn't go for a bigger number? Or do you think, again, it's just the subtler parts of his game that maybe other people didn't necessarily appreciate as they were looking. It's not Xavier McKinney. You know, like he's not going to give you that sort of flashy stuff. It's not the type of player he is. But I just think that he can do so many little things well.

He's a component piece of a good defense. Like that's what Cam Carroll feels like to me, even though their defenses in Washington were horrendous over the last couple of years. Well, that's the thing is I think over the past couple years, you know, I think when Cam Curl first came on when he was a rookie, he was like a seventh round pick and kind of just came out of nowhere. that defense was actually good. Like they were the reason that Washington team was kind of like in the playoff picture and actually did get into the playoffs, I think in 2021 maybe.

And so his star was shining a little bit brighter than the past couple years this defense has not been as good. And I think he's just kind of suffered from that. And it's not his fault. He was one of the best players that they had, especially if you look anywhere past the front four. So I think it was the combination of that. And truthfully, just the safety market in general didn't seem like it was popping other than Xavier. McKinney, like obviously he got a huge bag and he's going to need it with the way the Green Bay is going to play. But like other than that, the safety market was pretty, it just seemed like

teams didn't really want to go out and spend for it. It kind of just had this cascading effect of like, all right, nobody's going to get paid. And Cam Crow kind of suffered for that. But even with the minimal amount of money he's getting paid relative to what I think he should be making, I think he's just going to be a huge impact for them. I'm so glad you mentioned him because he was going to be like a subtext to my adverse point. So I'm glad that we got to hit both of those guys. Who's your next one? I'm sticking in the secondary again.

And this is a little bit more of a high profile player, but I still think he very much fits into changing the attitude of a defense and really letting them do what they want to do. And that's Lions cornerback, Carlton Davis. The Lions, they want to, Aaron Glenn at his core, he wants to play man and he wants to punch you in the face. They have not had the dudes for it, man. Like they just, as long as he's been there, they have not had the dudes.

Carlton Davis. You could just feel him seeking out more in the first half of last season. You watched the Lions and you just knew that Aaron Glenn is just sitting there with his fists balled up. I know I have to play this way and I absolutely hate it. And then in the second half of the season, he was just like, fuck it. I'm done. I don't care anymore. Like, we're going to blitz.

We're going to play man. I'll get the players in here later. Like it doesn't matter. And it's frustrating because he knows what it should look like. Like when he was in New Orleans, those defenses were great. They had dudes who could play man covered. You had a marshal. Latimore. He knew what it was supposed to be. And so to not have it in Detroit and just be

stuck doing all this other bullshit, I think it has really grinded his gears. And they went out this off season and like doubled and tripled down on corner. And I really think Carlton Davis is the guy that personifies what they want to do. Because when you watch Carlton Davis, man, there are a couple of times a game where maybe those smaller, quicker receivers are going to get him. Like you watch the Texans game and there's one or two times where Tankdale gets him because he's just a little bit quicker, a little bit more explosive. And that's just not the type of player that Carlton Davis is. But when you talk about getting up on the line of scrimmage or jamming dudes into the boundary, really trying to contest guys at the catch point, whether it's like, you know,

in the red zone or just down the field on a 40-yard go ball, whatever it is. Carlton Davis is going to make you earn absolutely every inch of grass if you are in his vicinity. And that's just the style of player that this back end needed because they kind of have some of those dudes in the front, right? Like, you know, Aidan Hutchinson is obviously this. Alin McNeillian. Well, I got one guy in the front coming. It's funny that you had a lie on the back end because I have a lot. on the front end because I do think that there's things to be considered there as well. I love it. And this, I think, was just their guy that they needed it in the back end. Because, you know, they had Brian Branch, who they just drafted. I think he's a great player.

And he kind of embodies this a little bit, but still didn't have any of it on the perimeter. Like, you know, he was more of a safety nickel type. So you still didn't have it on the edges. I think you go out and get a guy like Carlton Davis. And it's like, okay, we can go punch some people in the mouth now. And we can really make people earn it. And even just aside from coverage, that dude will go and hit and tackle. Like he is, you cannot throw screens at him. You cannot like throw these little BS flat routes at him. Like he is very much again, a guy who is going to make you earn every single blade of grass. So he's just the type of player that I think when you think about a defense really trying to find who they are. You know, if you think about the lions, they really invested a lot on

offense the last two or so years. I think this was finally their year where they're like, all right, it's Aaron's turn. We're going to go get in the guys he wants. And Carlton Davis was number one on that list of like, all right, how do I build this the way I want to build it? Even going to get a guy like Cam Sutton, and we can, all the off the field stuff is obviously an entirely different conversation. But on the field, the Steelers weren't really that sort of team, you know, that played in the way that you're talking about that Carlton Davis wants to play. They put a lot more zone.

It's just a different vibe on off on defense. And now you bring in a guy who specializes in that. And that's not necessarily who the bucks were all the time. And that's why I actually think that it's a way to unlock some elements of his game in a way that maybe they haven't been when he was playing in a more zone heavy defense in Tampa. Honestly, like, there's more similarities between the way that Tampa plays and the way that the Steelers play than what he's probably going to end up doing with the Lions. So I'm very excited about that. And I like the plan there. So obviously, they go draft Terran Arles in the first round to play on the other side.

But now you have Ennis Rakeshraw, and Davis is in the last year of his deal. So you trade a third round pick for Davis. He's getting a little bit older. You kind of potentially squeeze the last stuff that you can out of him on the final year of his contract. and then you can pass the torch maybe to a guy like Rake Straw next year and kind of maintain that same sort of play style from that position specifically. And you know what? He wasn't obviously going to be one of the guys because I didn't want to say two Lions corners, but Arnold also fits into this billing as, you know, fitting, I think the attitude that they want to bring.

Terry and Arnold also a guy who just, he's going to put hands on you, bro. He's going to make you earn it. The one guy, and so I also had a lion. I had DJ Reader because you look at what they look. look like up front over the last couple years. The run defense has been good, right? And we know that's kind of DJ Reader's calling card. It's one of the strongest players in the league, like full stop period.

The run defense has been good, but you drop DJ Reader in. So look at the snapcats from last year. Benito Jones plays 255 run defense snaps for them last year. You make those DJ Reader snaps, and your run defense potentially gets even a little bit better because they were really good on a success rate level, but not as many splash plays, explosive plays. is you clean everything up for the linebackers and you just get a more dynamic player in that spot.

I think your run defense is a chance to be better. But for me, the thing that's even almost more exciting, they needed somebody who can really push the pocket as an interior player. Alie McNeil was great from a penetrating perspective. But if you have a guy that you can line up as your nose and he can just collapse a guard, the Lions had one of the highest pressure rates

in the league last year, but didn't finish off sacks. And so instead of having, Aiden Hutchinson get run by the quarterback, and you can have the quarterback step up in the pocket and have room to work. Now you have a guy in DJ Reeder who hopefully is just going to be collapsing one side of the interior of the pocket consistently. So to me, it just, it all comes together up front in a way that makes more sense. That grouping of McNeil, Aden Hutchinson, you know, we pieced together the other edge spot plus DJ Reader. I'm just so much more excited about that. And it makes me feel a little bit better about this team not over.

overextending itself to find that second edge rusher this offseason because I think the end result with a guy like Reader can lift your pass rush in a similar way, even if traditionally we're going to describe that more with edge rushers than we are interior players. And there's just not a lot of guys who give you that from the nose. Obviously, Dexter Lawrence and Vita Veja are kind of in their own you guys are different, doesn't count. And then after that, there's really only a handful of other guys that are going to really give you that reliable push from the interior. DJ Reefi when he's healthy is absolutely one of those dudes. Like there are just not a lot of guys who command that much space and just make things

easier. Even if it's, you know, obviously crushing the pocket is going to be one. But he's the type of guy who, you know, if you want to run some picks, run some stunts, run some games, he eats up a little bit more space and he can hang on to those guards for that half second longer and let somebody free, you know, free hit to the quarterback. So he's just the, I think you absolutely spot on with this one. Just the type of guy who kind of glues everything together up front, which is really what they needed because they have a couple of stars.

obviously with Aidan Hutchinson. They just just needed this little guy to put it together. Again, we don't think about Reader this way, but last year he had 314 past rush snaps, I want to say. He had 34 pressures on those plays. Benito Jones had 307 past rush snaps. Almost the exact same snap counts in those situations, he had half as many pressures. Over the course of the season, that matters.

Like, if you can get 35, 40 pressures from your nose tackle while your three technique is that sort of player and you have a guy like Aiden Hutchinson, I just think that this group could feel a little bit more dynamic. I know they lost Kaminsky, but apparently Levi-Oen-Zerike has looked good. I have faith in what this, the step that this defense overall could take. And I think guys like Davis, guys like Reader are part of the reason for that. All right, who's your next one? This is your fourth one, right? I think so. So this one, I tried not to put many rookies and I tried not to put many high profile rookies. But there was one that it just felt you almost had to do it because it was too obvious

and you might even have him on your list was J.C. Latham for the Tennessee Titans. So I actually don't. I was debating whether or not I wanted to have J.C. Latham or Lloyd Cushenberry. Because I feel like the moves that they made, I do think that it has a chance to get there. I just, I couldn't get all the way there with either one of them. But we were in the exact same headspace and like trying to find a Titans offensive line that might fit this. I was literally debating between Latham and Cushenberry. And in my head, it was like, okay, Cushenberry helps Levis a lot. You know, he's a, he's a much thicker player than Aaron Brewer was

last year. Okay, that is stylistically different. But then you just look at Latham, dude, 340 pounds. And especially, so that alone is like, if when you take a 340 pound tackle, regardless of any other context, you are like, all right, we are trying to kick somebody's ass. Yeah, you're making a statement there. That's not a subtle decision that you're making. And I just, for context, like they, he, it was a no doubt about her thing. Like, they, I think they would have been comfortable with Alt or him. I don't think that they were necessarily sad that they had to draft J.C. Latham as the second tackle. Like, they were in a different tier than the other guys at the position. And I think some of the things that you're talking about, which is the built different

sort of approach to this, that he is one of those guys. It absolutely matters. And then you, like, the other thing to me is the context of this is look at the Titans tackles last year. One, they were obviously just bad, right? But they were more of like finesse type of players. Like Andre Dillard was this way. Jalen Duncan, who was a rookie that was playing for them, is kind of this way. Like his technique and agility are good, but he's just not a guy who has a ton of anchor, not a ton of sand in his pants.

He's going to move people in the run game. Nicholas Petit Ferrer on the right side, also not the strongest guy. Like this is just not a unit that had a lot of beef, a lot of strength on the edge of their offensive line. You go get a guy like Latham who is 340 pounds, can absolutely. absolutely just bully people in the run game by himself, let alone whatever you're going to do with double teams in an offense like this, it just gets me excited.

Because this is like when you think about the Titans being good and cool, this is what they were, right? Like they were just bullying you in the run game. And obviously they don't have Derek Henry there now, so it's going to be a little different. But it wasn't just that. It was like the way, when you had Ben Jones and you had Saffel playing at a high level and you had Luan,

like this was one of the best offensive lines in the league. And even if from a past protection standpoint, it wasn't necessarily to that same level. What they could do to you on the ground was fun as hell to watch. And even if they wanted to be that sort of team over the last couple of years, they did not have the horses to do it. Like they were incapable playing that way. And it feels like now we're at least inching back closer to that place. And that's fun. That's exciting.

And it's even more exciting too because Latham, the only really criticisms you could have at him coming out of college were, okay, every now and then he'll dip his head and he'll kind of lunge at guys. And every now and then he'll be a little bit slow to maybe read something and his feet will get stuck in the mud. Dude, his offensive line coach is Bill Callahan. He's probably going to figure it out. And so if you have all this stuff getting figured out and you're one of the most physically gifted players at the position, this could be, again, maybe not year one special,

but I think he'll be good year one. And then maybe year two, year three, just absolutely murdering people. I get this from a long term perspective. I honestly think if we're talking about this unit in 2024, I think Cushenberry is maybe the better person to mention. On two different levels. One, what he's going to do for you before the snap? And they consciously sought out a veteran center to pair with Levis because I think we've seen the benefits of that all over the league over the last five, ten years. And I think there's hoping to get some of that.

But you mentioned this. He's so much more stout from a past protection standpoint than a guy like Aaron Brewer is. You watched that team last year with Brewer at Center and Brunskill at right guard, and teams are just piercing the pocket against them over and over and over again. And so you can have better pocket integrity for a guy like Levis who's going to stand in there. I think it makes a huge difference. And this to me signals kind of where the league is going overall with some of these centers is centers are getting bigger. As we're getting to more of a pocket integrity like prioritization and downhill run schemes are kind of becoming back in vogue, I think that we're going to see these guys grow and grow and grow.

And just the size that Cushenberry is giving you compared to what they had last year, I think that could potentially go a long way, especially when you combine it with the mental stuff that he's potentially going to be bringing to the table. I'm going with another rookie here. And this is somebody that when we decided that we were going to do this exercise, who's one of the first people that come to mind because I had just been talking to a lot of people about him and just watching his college tape. I'm going with Mikey St.rystal from Washington. I was watching some Michigan stuff before I started. my trip because I wanted to talk to Jesse Minter, who's the defensive coordinator for the

Chargers, about some of the things that he was doing. And I'm watching Michigan, and I'm just looking at the slot corner over and over and over again. And he's just making play after play after play. And it was either Ohio State game or the Washington game last year. This guy weighs a buck 85. Like, he's not big. And they put him on the edge at one point.

I was like, this is crazy. The fact that you think you can get away with this because of how tough this fucking guy is, is incredible. And then, beyond that, I go to L.A., and I'm talking to Jesse Minter about Mike Ysaint-Restl specifically, and he just said he is just one of those guys that there's just something about him, like the way that he can get the most out of the people around him. It's not because he's necessarily a rah, raw guy. Like, there's just a certain magnetism to him where he's smart, he's humbled. The way he operates, he just pumps up everybody in his orbit. And you felt that with Michigan.

He just changed the DNA of what that defense felt like. And that's hopefully what he's going to do in Washington. Talking to Dan Quinn, they talk about play style at the beginning of the show. That's what they were prioritizing in the moves that they made this offseason. Going out and getting guys who are going to make us feel like a certain sort of unit on that side of the ball. Him, Dorrance, Armstrong, Frankie Louvre. I've got concerns about the high-end athleticism that we're talking about at certain positions on that defense. But they're going to hit you, dude.

That is the type of team they are going to be on that side of the ball. And rarely does that manifest in your slot corner. But in this specific situation, I actually do think it applies to what Sainer still specifically is going to be bringing to the table. And I think truthfully, he's kind of perfect for the modern NFL because you need that. Think about so many of the best nickel. So many of the best nickels in the league are guys who are going to play in the run fit or who are going to put hands on you one way or another.

obviously Kyle Hamilton is kind of a taradactyl. He's a little bit different. But even just guys like Mike Hilton, Kenny Moore, Taryn Johnson. Taron Johnson is like this. Like even if they're undersized, they're still bringing the vibes. And like, that's exactly the type of player the Sainter still is. They are still, they are the type of player who, you know, I think when the offensive minds go into the meeting, they're like, oh, we can run at the nickel.

And like these types of slot corners are just absolutely offended at the idea that you would do that to them. Like the guys like Taryn Johnson, they are just offended. that you would think that you can run at them. And that's the type of mentality. And think about how important that is to pull out that. If you're building a plan on offense and you pull out that jenga block of we can run at the nickel, it's like, no, you can't. Everything else starts to fall apart around it.

And I think that's what becomes so important with having a guy like this who can do a little bit of everything, but also just hold his own in that spot in your run defense. And he's the exact type of player who theoretically should be able to do that. I'm glad you said like just the kind of the tone that he sets. I really think like that's kind of the impetus for this show, right? It's guys that just set a different tone. It's why I thought of Azizal Shire the first time. Just guys who when they play as fast, as physical, as completely unhinged as they do,

the other 10 guys are like, should I be doing that? Like should I be a little bit crazier? But you need that, especially on defense, you need that. And that's kind of as I'm visualizing the types of guys. that we're talking about, that's what I'm seeing. It's just like, you just drop them in and, like, the color of everything changes around them. You know, like, that, that's the visual that keeps coming to my mind.

And that's why I just see that with Sanderson Stowe, and it helps that he's in the middle of the defense, right? You drop him in and everything else around him, the dynamic of it just starts to change. And he's somebody that I'm really excited to watch. Dan Quinn, it was funny. He said that when he went to J.J. McCartney's Pro Day, San Ristel was, like, running routes because he used to play receiver. So he's just like out there running like deep routes and like stair stepping people at the pro day just because he wanted to. And he's just like, yeah,

I think we should draft that dude. And that's the attitude you need. A guy who's just, I'm just going to go show off because I think I can and I think I'm better than you and I'm going to do it. Yeah. I'm very excited to watch him because I think that he's the exact type of presence at a team and especially early, right? The Lions prioritize the stuff. When they were finding guys, early in their regime. We're going to take guys who we think would do this for us, the penny sewers of the world, what Aidan Hutchinson

is, that being the foundation, football character, effort and attitude, you're rooting your first couple moves in that in order to build the bones of who you want to be as an organization. Five years ago, I'd have been like, okay,

grandpa, like, sure, that sounds great. But I just am really starting to buy into how important that stuff is. And so when a team like Washington, even if there are some concerns, other places are following that sort of blueprint, I think that there are a lot of downstream benefits to potentially be had by that. I think that's a great point. I think we've definitely gotten to a point with team building where we're more concerned about what do the bones look like here before we get to like what is the flashiest and best thing that we have.

And yeah, Mike Sanders still is the perfect embodiment of a thing like that. Who's your next one? You got one more? I got one more. And again, this one is a little bit closer to some of the flashier names, but this to me, when you talk about, like I mentioned at the show, some of these guys you bring in and they're just going to bring this sort of energy or whatever it is, no matter where they are, this to me was a signing where you bring this guy in because you want to play differently. And that's Xavier McKinney in Green Bay. We talked about him a, you know, a little bit at the top of the show. This one feels like cheating. But yes, I'm going to give it to you. It definitely is cheating. But this to me was just like, you go sign this guy because you want to play a

certain way. And that certain way is we want to be a one high defense where we're going to have a center fielder who can go out and actually cover a ton of ground. And Xavier McKinney absolutely does that. And I think this is really important for a few reasons. One, it slots very perfectly into Jeff Hapton's defense. Like you need a guy who can man center field and really have a ton of range. But McKinney also has a lot of flexibility. Like if you remember him at Bama, he actually played a little bit more kind of in the box, kind of out of the box, a little bit more split safety. He's very early in his career. He was moving all the all around for the Yeah, in Patrick Grand's defense, he was a guy who did a little bit more of a little bit more of everything.

And he didn't need to do that as much last year, but I think he's very much a guy who can. And I think that gives halfway a little bit of flexibility. You think there's a lot of structural diversity to what Wing Martindale is trotting out there. You don't have to wear as many hats as a safety. He's one of those guys where it's like, when you know, when you talk about scheme, I love to talk about personality and God, they've got more than anything. In terms of the soundness of it, it's, it's, there. You can overdo it. Like the ratio still matters.

I think in my mind the pie chart of schematics versus play style, the chunk for playstyle has gotten bigger as far as how I defined good teams and the prioritization. But you still need a little bit on the other end of it. That actually does still matter. I think this is a very good one. I don't want to talk too much about this because I don't want to spoil some Packers defense thoughts that I have that we may, I may be sprinkling. into some shows we may be doing here in the near future. But I'm 100% with you on this because I think

that they're going to rely on the coordinator change to change the personality of the defense with how they play. But I think that having this come in from a changing the person or changing the DNA of the schematics and changing like structurally what they're able to do, 100%. Like that's why they had to go out and make a move like this. And I'm excited to see how it works out. Exactly, because if you don't have this guy, it doesn't work. Like, the thing that you are trying to do defensively, schematically, does not work if you don't have a guy who can cover as much ground as McKinney can in the back end. And even if they're going to play as much man coverage as they want to and they're going to do a little bit with fiddling who is playing in center field. McKinney can play man-to-man coverage.

Like, he can absolutely run and cover people that way. So he to me is just, again, this is not necessarily a guy who comes in and changes the DNA of any defense before a team that wanted to change their DNA. in the first place, he's the guy you absolutely need or it's just not going to work the way that you think it's going to work. I wonder how much we're going to see him and potentially Bullard, Javon Bullard, who they drafted in the second round, I think will ultimately win that job or at least played the most snaps by the end of the season. That's Bullard selling point two. So is there a world where we're going to see them kind of switch off, like who's dropping down into the box and they're a little bit harder to pin down? I remember talking to a GM that they had Bullard as a

corner coming into this draft. And the fact that that's, those are the sort of cover skills he potentially has, and you could have him in center field while you're using McKinney in a couple different ways, I'm very interested to see what the back seven of this defense ends up looking like, because if they hit their stride and we get close to the best versions of a lot of those guys, including the rookies, I think that this defense has a chance to be pretty darn good. I remember when Brian Flores was in Miami, they obviously ran a ton of cover one, but they would do a lot of fiddling with who was actually the center field player. If you can do it well and you really have the guys who can play man to man, play in the whole, play center field, and you have two guys who can do it,

Jesus, it is really difficult to play offense when you don't know who is coming down and who is playing in the back end. And that's ideal, because even in a world where we were playing more single high safety than we are now, so let's say five, seven years ago, there were still defense. I think of those Mike Zimmer Bengals teams, right? Like, they're not playing the amount of quarters in cover two that most of the league is playing now, but because the safeties were interchangeable, and now I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm I'm going to forget the names of those guys.

It's going to drive me absolutely crazy. Like the two interchangeable safeties that they used to have on those teams. Wasn't it like Iloca was one of them? Aloka. Yes, Georgia Loka. That's the exact name that I was searching out. And so when you have those two guys and they are interchangeable, even if you are playing a lot of single high,

it's just hard to get a beat on you. And so if the Packers have that sort of approach, I think that it could go potentially a long way. My last one for real here, it's kind of adjacent to the DJ Reader stuff. Eric Armstead going to Jacksonville. having an interior pass rusher that you can pair with Josh Heinz Allen and hopefully Trayvon Walker, it's so nice. I've liked some of the guys that they've had over the last couple years, but a real difference maker dropped into that spot.

I think it has a chance to transform that unit. And with all of the questions they have on the back end, I think has a chance to transform the defense overall. So, Armstead, Trouble Staying Healthy. We know this. but I just think that they've really missed that sort of player in their overall offering on that side of the ball the last few years. And when he's at his best and he's right, it's hard to find that many interior players who are going to disrupt and affect the game in the way that Eric Armstead has a chance to. I almost put him on my list. I'm so glad he did this. I am like the longest term Eric Armstead appreciator.

There's just guys who are like, what is he like, six, seven, two, 80, like just out. absolute vines for arms. There's just not a lot of like interior players who look like that. It's like him and Clay's Campbell, basically. Yeah. I just think that that's a, it's such a cool play style. Like it to be a guy who, you know, you can play three tech. You can even kick him out a little bit to like base end.

Like he's just a guy who brings so much physicality, so much length that it really kind of frees up a lot of space for a lot of the other players behind him. And he's really just a huge weapon when you talk about trying to mix some games up up front. And I actually think that that's huge for this front because. Trayvon Walker is very much a guy who you can kind of put in a bunch of places. I think Josh Heinz Allen, even though he to me is more of like a pure edge guy, he's such a good athlete that you can stunt him, you can twist him, you can do all this other stuff with him.

And then their linebackers are actually pretty good blitzers. So now you've really built this defensive line that is like you could get anybody moving in any direction and you have the length strength and athleticism to really, really cause problems. I think you give that type of personnel to a defensive coordinator like Ryan Nielsen. there's a very good chance this could be a dangerous unit, especially up front. He just loves his trees, man. Ryan Nielsen just loves his trees.

You look at the types of guys that he has sought out, you know, the way that those ends are built in New Orleans. They go out last year and like they draft Zach Harrison in the third round who's like 6-5-270. Colales Campbell comes on board, but Dupree has a lot of size. He has a type. Ryan Nielsen has a type of guy that he wants up front. And Eric Armstead very much fits that.

Bill. Two guys I wanted to mention that, one, specifically, that is like hilarious and a punchline and the fact that I'm even doing this is so silly, but I was just there and I do think it's going to make a little bit of a difference. Mack Hollins in Buffalo. The fact that you have a guy like that, a receiver who wants to block and approaches his job that way, God bless Steph Diggs, right? He was an incredible player for the bills. The bills receivers were not defined by their blocking price. hours over the last few years. And as the personality of that unit has changed in the last 12 calendar months with the way that they can run the ball, a guy like Matt Collins, who is going to play more than you think he's going to play for this Buffalo Bill's offense, having somebody come in that's just going to block his ass off. And like you mentioned, have the other receivers kind of look at that and say, I guess we

should do that. I do think that is a positive influence potentially on the overall formula that the bills have. and the other guy I had was Andrew Van Ginkle from Minnesota. And it's for this reason. Minnesota last year, they had ends that were cosplaying as flexible pieces, right? Like, asking DJ Wanam to drop back into coverage 100 times over the course of the year is not his game. He did great at it given his limitations and he seemed game to do it. But dropping a guy who actually is able to play that way into who you are as a guy.

defense. It feels like there's going to be less masquerading as a weird defense and more we are a solid weird defense. Like we have the right pieces to do what we're doing here. And we're going to take this from strange and potentially annoying to as effective as a defense like this can be in 2024. Van Ginkle is great. He's in that he's basically along the lines of thinking that I had with McKinney. It's like, all right, this team already knows what they want to do, obviously with Brian Flores, right? And Van Ginkle already played with Brian Flores. And so Brian Flores was like, all right, I need a guy that I know could do the stuff that I want to go do. I'm just going to go pluck him and I'm going to go get him. And now they have it. And so I love that. This is definitely a guy who I think

defines what they want to be doing up front. And he can, he's kind of the jack of all. He's what I said at the top of the show. He's a henchman. He's their henchman type of guy. He literally has, he literally looks like one of the bad guys in Diehard. Like, that's exactly what he is. He's car. Perfect. Yes. So he is absolutely fits the description for what they need over there. And then Matt Collins, I actually think he goes perfect with Keon Coleman. Like Keon Coleman is actually a guy who I think coming out of college has size and he's very willing to block.

So you go from, like you said, Steph Diggs, love him, great player, not a guy who's really throwing down a whole lot, especially on the perimeter. You bring in guys like Matt Collins and Keon Coleman who are like 6-2 plus 210 plus, just absolutely. huge human beings. Yeah, man, the attitude of your run game and your offense is probably going to be a little bit different than it was last year when it was a little bit more finesse. We're doing a bunch of empty quick game type stuff. And listen, this is not the most important thing, like receivers on the edge blocking, but I've said this a bunch of times. I think if you stacked up the list of the best offenses in the league and the list of the best offense with the best blocking receivers and the most willing blocking receivers, I think they'd be the same list. The Venn diagram is a circle between those two units.

mind in the current NFL. So being able to do that, I think, does go a long way. And if you can turn a couple James Cook 12-yard runs into 40-yard runs because of what those guys are doing downfield, over the course of the season, those little things add up. So again, it felt silly. It's like throwing Matt Collins onto this list, but I was just there talking to people about this, and it felt like it was at least worth bringing up. All right, that is all we got for today. One note before we get out of here. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up that there are three new episodes of Jordan Roderick's play caller series out right now. You know, the show debuted last year on this feed, obviously.

She talked to all those guys in the Shanahan Tree. She has three new interviews with kind of up-and-coming coaches in the NFL. Michael Fleur, the Rams Office Coordinator, Gerard Johnson, the Texans quarterback coach, who I've gotten the chance to talk with a couple times over the last year. And I think is a real kind of budding star. I think we'll be an offensive coordinator sooner rather than later. And she also chatted with Panther secondary coach Jonathan Cooney. So really fun listen.

I think you guys will learn a lot about what it takes to be an NFL coach. So to check out those episodes, search the play callers on your favorite podcast app. On this podcast, that is all we have for today. We will be back on Thursday. We're going to be doing top 10 defenses on Thursday. We're going to do them today. I probably said that. But I didn't have much time to prep for that with all of my travels.

So we're going to do that a little bit deeper into the week. And then another fun show coming to your guys's way on Friday with a great guest. So look forward to that. For now, that's. all we got. As we get into the season, a couple requests from you guys. One, if you're watching this on YouTube, subscribe to the YouTube channel. We're going to be doing all of these shows on YouTube over the course of the season, you know, hopefully doing some clips from the shows, all that stuff. I'm terrible at this part of my job. I would like to say once or twice a year,

subscribe to the YouTube channel that you are potentially watching because we're going to be leaning into it in a way we probably never have. And I would love that. If you like the show, and you have liked the show for however long you've listened, to it, leave us a rating and a review. If it's on Apple Podcasts, just go tell us why you like it. Leave a review. I would consider it a personal favor to me, but these are the kinds of moments, preseason after the season when I think to check in about this stuff. So if you could do that, I would very much appreciate it. For now, though, that is all we've got on this show. We'll be back on Thursday. Talk to you guys soon.