The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The training camp storylines that matter—and the ones that don't—with Gregg Rosenthal

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

Some training camp storylines matter. Some are just fodder to get us to the regular season. How do you figure out which is which? By listening to this episode of The Athletic Football Show with Robert Mays and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Media.Host: Robert MaysWith: Gregg RosenthalExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Mitchell on X: @MitchSchwartz71Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. My buddy Greg Rosenthal from NFL Media. Host of NFL Daily is here. Greg has covered the league for a very long time at a very high level, and he just has a spiky sense for what matters this time of year. And that's what we wanted to dig into today.

I've been on the road, so I feel like I've missed a lot of the training camp storylines that consistently creep up every single day. I miss a lot of it just based on my schedule these days. So I sat down over the last couple days and just tried to scoop up as much of that stuff as I could. Who looks good? Who's got the hype? What are we worried about? Which post-hype guys are actually looking good in this year's training camp?

And me and Greg are going to spend today just figuring out which of that stuff matters and which of that stuff doesn't. So excited to get to that with Greg. Let's do it. Joining me now from NFL Media and host of NFL Daily. It's Greg Grosenthal. Greg, how you doing, man? What up, Robert? How are you doing?

I'm doing good. I'm doing good. As you can see, I'm in the Bengals Stadium right now in, like, a room decked out in Bengals memorabilia for all of you guys watching on YouTube. I'm one day away from getting home, two days. I get home tomorrow afternoon after 19 days on the road. So it's been a fun trip. I thought this was your house, actually, and you'd just become a huge AJ Green fan,

which I would respect AJ Green is perennally underrated. There's a lot of good stuff behind me. We got a Joe Burrow, like, movie poster-esque kind of thing for his NFL comeback player of the year award. It's a lot of good stuff. I was excited to do this show with you because I feel like you have a very good way of kind of seeing all the news as it flows in and waiting through the bullshit and just being like, all right, what actually matters here and what doesn't matter here? So that's what we're going to do today. We are going to scoop up two, two and a half weeks full of training camp storylines and try to figure out which of them actually matter and which ones are worth paying attention to.

And I want to start with the San Francisco 49ers. You and I think are aligned on this Brandon Ayuk thing where I don't totally understand why it benefits the 49ers to trade Brandon Ayuk on August 8th, considering where they are as a team. Before we get to the rest of the 49ers questions, how are you reading this IUC situation as it's unfolded? Well, it doesn't make sense. It'd be a failure.

They've botched this even that it's gotten to that point. It seems like they're absolutely ready to trade him. as we're taping this, I just haven't been able to fully get there that they would actually do it because it seems so boneheaded this season in particular. And yet it feels like they could because emotions are getting in the way. And that's happened with this team before. But I still can't buy it. So there is a part of me where everyone is assuming this is going to happen and there's still a part of me that thinks at the very end,

maybe they'll just raise their offer and find a way to keep them. Somebody told me yesterday from another team. Don't underestimate how the people in that building think of themselves and how it can potentially drive their decision making, which, you know, I'm sure there's a little bit of that. I'm sure there's a little bit of we're a machine. We'll figure it out. I get it. I also think Brandon Ayuk is a very good football player who is kind of important to how the Niners want to play on offense. Right. The draft picks are going to be the same in February. That's the thing that gets me. So you're basically admitting defeat that you didn't understand how the wide receiver market was going to go up, even though all these wide receivers were. available and if you were going to trade them, it had to be in March or April. It just makes absolutely no sense. Even if you got a veteran receiver back, it's not going to be one that's going to replace them. And I know it's dangerous as we're taping, but it might be something where they're trying to get a third team involved and they're only going to do it if they really feel

like they can somewhat replace them, which is very tough to just find top 10 to 15 wide receivers out there. So if this was the only thing going out with the Niners, I'd be like, all right, They'll figure out the rest of this. There's a lot of other stuff that's happening there right now. Christian McCaffrey is hurt. He's not practicing. He's probably not going to be on the field until we get closer to the season. And Trent Williams is holding out right now.

So all of the things going around on with the Niners, just this chaos that seems to be hovering around them right now. Does this matter? Is this important to you? I think it does. I think it matters. They're going to be the team that I overrate what happens in August and end up predicting them to have a worse season than they probably will. because I thought this season was so tricky for them regardless because I think they have all the problems and the trappings

of two-time Super Bowl champions like the Chiefs without actually having the trophy. So they have all the bad things that are coming with it. And I just think that's a lot of weight to carry. A soft tissue injury for Christian McCaffrey, we've been there before. They'll get Trent Williams done. And at this point, you know, as we're taping,

the Ayuk thing to me is massive. And I just think it's the hardest thing in football to get. back to that final four year after year after year. And they just keep doing it. And I do think, whether it's the disease of more with Pat Riley or it's just, you know, more bad injury luck for them. I do think it matters in a pretty loaded division. I think it's a great way to frame it. You get the disease of more, but you don't actually have the trophies in the case, which is probably the worst case scenario. I love, I don't know if you saw this framing. I think it was Jeremy

Fowler put out that Williams, Trent Williams has conviction in this holdout. He picked up golf in the off season. So he's fine just golfing and losing $50,000 a day. Can you imagine being in a position where you were fine just losing $50,000 a day? It was like, you know what? I'll be fine. No, but I can't imagine being in a position where I'm 315 pounds and can run whatever he can run. And I mean, he's one of the greatest NFL players since we've started covering this league. As you know, Robert. And they know that. We know that. That's what that what I'm not worried about. I think a tackle can show up with 10 days left before the season that he's that good. And if he has to ease his way in. That's going to happen. That's part of it that I'm not as worried about, but it's more just

the NFC in that division that I am. So let's hang around in some turmoil for NFC possible contenders. Obviously, the story comes out with the Eagles this week, with Tim McManus and Jeremy Fowler on ESPN. Diana's talked a little bit about this, the rift that apparently exists between Jalen Hertz and Nick Suriani. There was a line or a section in that story where they can't meet alone together. Like they need a buffer in order to make the vibes work in those conversations. Does this matter everything going on potentially under the surface for the Philadelphia Eagles? I hate to give a qualifier. I feel like it matters if they get off to a bad start or if they hit some turbulence and you would expect some turbulence in an NFL season. And yet, if I had to

choose matter or doesn't matter, I'd still lean towards not mattering because I do believe in the talent of this roster, Ann and Jalen Hertz and not all quarterbacks and coaches get along. and long term, this probably isn't a good thing for them. And yet when I look at that division, I look at the NFC, I actually think they have a better chance to win the NFC than consensus because the roster is awesome. And I still do kind of believe that this reset can work for them. I'm not sure. Because I think the point you make about the slow start, I think they're going to start slow on offense.

It's such a huge change in some of the things that they're doing. I mean, even beyond little details, like more, motion and some of the things they're going to do with lining up receivers in different spots. The way that they're asking Jaylen to see the game is different than it was over the last couple years. And there's a chance that that's a good thing, right? I mean, they ran out of road with the way they wanted to play offense.

It was no longer fit for the modern NFL, some of the things that they were doing. And I think this potentially sets them up for success, but I don't know how quickly it's all going to fall into place. And like you mentioned, if it's a little bit disjointed at the start, how is the general atmosphere in that building going to feel. I do have, I do think it matters a little bit because I've come to this place where I think if you have a volatile personality as your head coach, it's really difficult to have sustained success in the NFL. And I think that you can probably throw Nick Siriani into that category based on what we've seen from him when things have been going well and what we've

seen from him when things have been going poorly. And you can also throw Vic Fangio into that category, who's coming off one of his toughest seasons as a defensive coordinator. And it's, it's a It's a coaching staff where people are asking, wow, you know, Siriani brought in these two guys who could be interim head coaches. And I'm just thinking, well, he didn't bring in those guys. And that's an unhealthy situation that the front office is hiring coaches. And I think front offices have a bigger hand in hiring coordinators than people realize sometimes, depending on the coach and how much power they have in the organization. But it's volatile. And yet I've seen volatile teams with this much talent work.

And I still do think we're talking offends, like Lane Johnson, Jordan Maillotta, A.J. Brown, Devante Smith, Dallas Goddard, Sequin Barclay, J. Lin, like, Jeff, you know, Stoutland. Like, I just, I kind of think that you just have to have halfway decent coaching and they're going to cook because talent matters more to me than all of the rest of it. I think that's totally fair. And I think that there's a chance that there's just like a tsunami of talented players. And that's what really does end up dictating this in the end. But I still have, I still have my doubts. I still have my doubts about how. it actually looks in practice when we see it to start. What's going on in Pittsburgh on the other side of the state here? It really does seem like Justin Fields could be the starting quarterback in Pittsburgh based on what's happening in camp over the last few weeks. The fact that I was there yesterday, Russell Wilson was back in team drills, but it had been a while since they'd seen him on the field and he's not going to play

in their first preseason game. Does this matter that Russell Wilson has not played for the last two weeks and that Justin Fields may be the starting quarterback in Pittsburgh? Oh, absolutely, because it gave proof of concept for. what Arthur Smith and Mike Tomlin could see a Justin Fields offense being. Now, if I had to pick now, I would still say Russell Wilson is the week one starter, but Justin Fields is almost like that rookie quarterback who in the preseason is competing against the week four version of whoever the starter is.

Basically, can I put as much on tape in practice and then in the preseason that they've seen enough from me in this structure that if there's even a little bit of a wobble from the starting quarterback that we're going to be confident going to him. And to me, Fields, makes sense in this Arthur Smith offense. Obviously, it'll look different if Brandon Nyuk is there or not, but either way, he wants to have two tight ends, three tight ends. He wants to be a run first group. He wants to get to the edge with this offensive line group. They're not as good pass, you know, protecting. And to me, Fields is a better version of that type of quarterback than Russell Wilson is. Yeah, I think. I think that if you want to live in that world, he just gives you a pathway to more explosive place,

right? And whether it's as a scrambler or as a design runner, I think they're going to try to take some of that off his plate if he does end up being the quarterback in terms of the design runs. But I do think that encouraging him, if it's going to be a lot of play action, to be like, listen, if that's not there, just go. If that's not there, just go. That gives you a dynamic that Russell Wilson just doesn't at this point in his career. And I've gotten to a place where it's like, what's the argument for Russell Wilson? Can you make a case for why Russell? Can you make a case for why Russell Wilson is a better option for the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2024 than Justin Fields. No, I've been in this camp all along. I mean, he's a good deep ball thrower. At this point in

the of his career, like he can probably make quicker decisions, but this is comparing a guy that's going to make like the fourth least quick decisions in the league as a starting quarterback to Justin Fields. Who's a second least quick like whatever it is. That's exactly what it is. If you're worried about, well, yeah, you know, Justin Fields takes a lot of sacks, you know, Okay, so does Russell Wilson. To me, the negative plays are just as prevalent, or they have a chance to be just as prevalent, and you're taking away all of the positive volatility that you could potentially throw in there if you have Justin Fields. I'm just running out of reasons for why he shouldn't be the guy there.

The only thing I would push back on you from is I don't want them taking away those design runs from Justin Fields. How old is Justin Fields right now? It's like 26, 27. Arthur Smith, these two tackles who are so good at pulling this backfield with Jay. Alan Warren, like you got Darno Washington as your second or third. Like, this is the year to just do it. Like, we could have a ton of fun. Justin Fields could do, you know, bigger than when he was maybe the best running quarterback, you know, season that we've ever seen.

I'm not saying it's great for his long-term development or that this is a sustainable model, but I think they could win and be a lot of fun for 2024 doing that. Here's the, here's why I think it's potentially dangerous. It's not only the physical toll, but like the mental toll that that potentially takes on him. And I think that they're conscious of how to make him feel like he's carrying a little bit less of the load within this offense than he might have in Chicago. And you remember, I think the most physically, like, brutal game that Justin Fields played with the Bears was in Atlanta two years ago. And I think he ran the ball like 20 times over the course of that game. It was not good.

We got to the end of that game and I was like, this is not sustainable. You cannot continue to do this with your starting quarterback. And Arthur Smith had a front row seat to that. So I do wonder if there's a sense from his side of things of how much is too much with asking him to carry the ball while also encouraging him in specific moments. Hey, you just need to take off. Like, don't worry about getting to your third read on this play. That's not what this is about. Just use your legs and make yourself dangerous in that way.

But again, trying to find the right balance of letting him do that, encouraging him to do that while not having the shit kicked out of him for 60 straight minutes like he has in the past. That's fair. And maybe it's something a little closer to Josh Allen when he was younger, even now where it's. You save it a little bit towards the end of the season. You certainly use it in the red zone, and you scare the hell out of defenses just with the threat of it as much as you can. I just think Jalen Warren and Najee Harris are both primed for as good a season as any duo in the league. Let's get to the Carolina Panthers and some of the buzz coming out of their training camp.

Our own Joe Person wrote this week that Jonathan Mingo has been looking good, and that's not the only receiver that's can getting pumped up. Deonti Johnson, just kind of bringing a different skill set to this office. offense. What wide receivers coach, Rob Moore, told David Newton from ESPN, he says he brings a skill set that's different than some of the other guys we have. He's got a unique ability to separate. He's an elite route runner.

What it does is it gives you a guy in the field that commands the attention of defenses. Are we buying the optimism about what a new look wide receiving group and a couple new offensive linemen can do for Bryce Young in year two? On a relative scale, yes. Deonti Johnson, yes. Jonathan Mingo only because I was high on him coming out of the draft. It's all about the prior. But no.

I would say no on the mingo. Noah's on the offense becoming average. But Deontay Johnson, yes. Like that translates. They needed someone like him. Like he's a he's as good as separator as there is. Like and just having that one guy is going to make a big difference. I've really thought about Bryce Young in the context of Alex Smith and some other rookie

quarterbacks who were absolutely awful. Like Alex Smith to me was. you could throw golf in there, but I would say Alex Smith had the roughest season for like a highly drafted quarterback I've ever seen. Bryce Young in that mix, although I think he showed more positives. Second year, they bring in North Turner.

Alex Smith and the 49ers improved to like seven and nine. He just becomes like the 20th best quarterback in the league. And it was just like, okay, let's take a deep breath. He can play. I don't know if Canalis is as good as 2005 North Turner. That sort of remains to be seen. But I do think Bryce Young can. can be as good as 2005 or if it was six.

I'm forgetting the year. It was 2006 was Alex Smith second year. Right. To get to a respectable, like, okay, he's at least like an okay average quarterback. And Deonti Johnson will help him get to that. I think that's fair. And I think that's a positive outcome. If they are just a competent, what's 24th best offense in the league and you see

enough bright spots that you can build on it, I also think we can talk all we want about the receivers. And it does matter, especially when the guys they had last year, this team is going to run the shit out of the ball. That, in my opinion, is how they are going to try to protect Bryce Young. If you think about the way they built this offseason, all that money they spent on guards, that feels, if we're going to try to insulate him and try to make sure that we're getting the most out of him, I think that being a run-first team and taking some of that stuff off of his plate,

that feels like the path they would try to go down based on some of the moves that they made over the last six months. I agree, but it's also one I'm buying less just because, A, the defense, the talent is just bottom five in the league. And then more to the point. I haven't seen that many teams spend that big at guard and with mediocre running back talent, which is what they have at least until they get, you know, the rookie back healthy and everything. Like that doesn't usually work.

Like if you're a great offensive line coach and you can install a system, but I kind of have to see that to believe it. So I'm a little dubious of that helping out Bryce young enough. I think that's totally fair. I think the receivers end up being more important. I just think that's probably the plan going in. We'll see if it actually does work. We'll talk about some teams in transition here.

I want to just ask you about how you're feeling about the Patriots right now. Just with everything that's come out of there, like all the kind of the ups and downs with Drake May, that they're locking up that four-win core because you have to do that, right? Like, that's important to make sure that you lock that stuff in. Where are you at right now, like two weeks into the Drake-May Gerard Mayo experience? First of all, I loved all the extensions they had until Devon got shot and maybe Jabryl Pepper's. Like before that, it was all their best players who just happened to me. It was their only good players that were young that actually Bill Belichick would have probably let go.

Like Dugger and obviously it's disappointing Christian Barmore has this scary blood clod issue. But like those were to me no brainer extensions. It's actually, okay, they're acting like a normal team, resign your best young players. It just happened that they were all up for extensions this off season. May, you could say it's disappointing a couple weeks in that they're, I think he's behind where they expected him to be. I think they expected it to be more of a competition than it has been. But I'm all in on Drake May. I was before the draft.

I was so disappointed when they won that Christmas Eve game against Denver. And I just figured they were going to lose Drake May. So I'm not going to be pushed off that because of the last couple of weeks. I remember where Stroud was a couple weeks ago, I mean a year ago at this point. And that part doesn't mean too much to me other than we're just. probably not going to see him week one, which, yeah, that's fine. When do you want to see him? In your mind, what is the correct amount of football for Drake May to play this season

to set him up for success over the next five years? A lot, like 12 games? I want to see him play football. I just feel like you're not going to really know until he's out there. The trick with them is they really did sign the best bridge quarterback in the league. I mean, Jacoby Brissette has shown in this offense that he can be in a of average just in terms of efficiency. He's taking the mantle from Teddy Bridgewater.

He's stolen it away. And is like the guy that everyone in the locker room is going to get behind. So I get the temptation to play him for a while, but you got to see May at some point. Speaking of rookie quarterbacks, I want to talk about the Bronco situation because we have not talked about this, I don't think, at all on this show. And that's my fault. But also it's just when I talk about and think about the rookie quarterbacks, I just always forget Bo Nicks.

Michael Peddix is easy to forget. He's not going to play. but I've just forgotten to keep bringing up Bo Nix. It sounds like Bo Nix is gaining ground here. I'm going to read a quote from Sean Payton to our own Zach Cosmiter from earlier this week. So when we watch Nix's tape, you see pretty good pocket sense. He doesn't take a lot of sacks. I think he knows when the play is over, time to go.

Then I think he can make plays when he's going. I used to say this all the time. The sack numbers are more of reflection on the quarterback than the offensive line. Breeze was one of those guys. He was a tough sack. The ball came out. I think Bo has traits like that. I would buy in Bo Nix Drew Bree's comparisons on August 8th?

No. I'm buying that that indicates that Bo Nix is the favorite to start week one, but I would have assumed that before anything happened in training camp, by all accounts, it's going well, well enough. It's either him or Stidham. They'll get the chance in the preseason. I have wondered throughout this process, and I don't know if you heard whispers, it certainly was something going around.

Like, how much did Sean Payton want this quarterback? How much was pushed, you know, by ownership that they, They had to take someone and he was the last guy there at 12. I don't think they would draft him unless there was some buy-in from Sean Payton. But the debris comparisons are a little tough to stomach. You're the right person to ask about this because I think you can take a sober look at it. Where are we at on Sean Peyton in 2024? I'm wondering if he's got a little parcels.

He's to me the most parcels, you know, disciple there's ever been. Yeah, he comes by honestly. Right. I mean, that's been his guy. And I got the sense with Parcells late in his career that he loved it, but he didn't love all of it. He didn't love it as much as he used to. I think that's a danger. But he loved the paycheck. He loved the lifestyle. He loved a lot of things that comes with it. Like players, when they get to the end of their career. And it's tough to say that because coaching is such a tough job and such a grind. Like obviously he's in it and working his ass off. But man, when the first day of training camp, he had this press conference and someone told me to watch this press conference back. And it felt like it was the like week 12 and they just lost 41 to 7. He was so pissed off like at everything. And I'm like, why is Sean Payton so mad on July 25th? That got me wondering just like.

Do you think that's a good or bad thing? No, I think that's bad. I think you need to go in with optimism. To me that speaks to more like, oh, I'm annoyed this, you know, the summer's over and that I don't really have a chance to win this division. I'm hoping to win nine games, and that's not where I want to be as Sean Payton. I could swing it and try to spin it as that means he's engaged and that means he cares. If he didn't, if he wasn't like that, a guy making $25 million a year or whatever he is, just like, you know what, none of this matters anymore.

So I think there is a read on it where you could see it as a good thing. But I get where you're going with that. I just like, I can't believe I'm here. I think he's a realist and he looks at his roster and it's just not there. I think they have. It sure isn't. Good continuity on the offensive line except for center. and they played better, and he's always had a good offensive line.

Like, that's one thing Sean Payton knows how to coach up. He made a nice hire with Zach Streif, kind of out of nowhere, a former Saints player who did a good job with him. Other than that, what unit on this team do you look at and say that's above average? Like, you can't find one, defense or offense. The Olympics are rolling along, the Athletic Podcast Network has you covered. The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, NBA show, and full-time with Meg Linnahan, are bringing you reports from France after all the big Team USA basketball games.

games and soccer matches. Plus, check out our summer of champions on the no-dunks feed every night when the action in Paris wraps up. Give it all a listen wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get to some injury news that has trotted out over the first couple of weeks. I want to talk to you about how worried you are about each one of these. Joe Burrow, not throwing more than two days in a row at the start of camp. And I think we've softened on that. I think that was just that early camp thing and it actually has become more normal. But how worried are you about just another year where Joe Burrow is coming in with an injury and it's something that the Bengals have had to monitor from day one here. Oh, not at all because he's made it so far through this camp. And

Paul Dainer, who you know well at the athletic is one of the best guys out there. And so I've been following his coverage and his pod and everything. And I think he hasn't been healthy at all for an entire camp yet. And he's doing it and supposedly been really sharp. So I get that they're trying to be careful with him. But I think he's been actually kind of the flip side, a real positive to just have a normal camp finally. To be honest with you, I put that in the rundown before I got to Cincinnati today. This morning, I feel much better about where Joe Burrow is than before I arrived here. How did he loves?

You're good? He hasn't played yet. It was just having conversations with people. It practices a little bit later today. But just initial discussions, I think that they are very happy about where he is and about, again, just the ability to play during training camp. Even if he's not full go from day one, this is more than we've seen him in August for most of his career at this point, which is I think certainly a good thing.

This one's a little bit harder to spin positively. Where are we at with Justin Herbert and the planter fascia situation? How worried are you about this? Oh, very worried that he's just taking two weeks totally off. Now they released the statement that said it's an injury to his planter fascia and some of the Twitter doctors who you don't know which ones to trust were like, well, that could be better than actually having planter fasciitis. That there's a chance that by totally resting,

that it would just go away and they were trying to avoid it being recurring, but you follow the league long enough. Like foot injuries are the thing that scares me the most at any position, especially in August. And they're dead without him. I was out at Chargers camp. And I think their defenses look good in general, but East, you know, because Herbert hasn't looked that great.

I don't think at camp when he was out there for the brief time he was. But Easton Stick, like, you're drawn dead. It's over if you got to. start Easton Stick for a lot of games. Yeah, Daniel Popper, who covers the Chargers for us, talk to a foot specialist that works with the Rams. And he essentially said exactly what you just pointed out, that if it's an injury to the planar fascia and you can rest it for a while, you're not dealing with kind of the chronic

pain that planar fasciitis is a chronic condition where you're having to manage the pain moving forward. If you can heal an actual injury with enough time, you get back to 100 percent, there's a chance that it won't linger, but I'm with you. foot stuff is just like Joe Burrow played week one. You know, Joe Burroughs calf was healed by week four. Like anything in that lower body extremity type area, it makes me a little bit worried. Are you buying that the Chargers defense looks good?

Or do you think this is a product of playing against an offense that has no idea what it is? I, it's funny you say that. Our friend Minichimes and I have, you know, we don't wager normally. There's no actually money at stake. I work for the NFL that's not allowed. But I think we have something on the line of, I believe there'll be at least better than 20th in DVOA this year. She's not buying any hype.

And yeah, I mean, defenses are so much more volatile based on getting buy-in from the players. And I think you talk to the players there. The buy-in between this staff with Jesse Minter and what you had with Brandon Staley, I think, is going to be way different. And you have a really good edge group. You have four or five guys that can play. And you combine that with, you know, if Durwin James can stay healthy and just a little more cohesion, a little more energy, then I think they can improve quite a bit. So I'll buy,

I don't think they're going to be a top 10 group or anything, but I think they can be average. I think the buy-in is hugely important. I think you're right. They have some holes, right? They're kind of trying to piece it together at corner. I think they're holding on for dear life there a little bit. The interior of the defensive line is like that. But having your defense- for Christian Fulton, you know? It sure is. You know, there was like a 10-week stretch. I always say this with NFL players. If a young player has any sustained stretch where they looked outstanding. Like, we've seen it enough. It can happen. They've shown they can do it. It can happen again. And he did have that stretch. He hasn't been healthy at all in the two years since,

but he did have that stretch at one point. So I thought that was a worthwhile shot. And he's supposedly look great all camp. That is absolutely a type of gamble that you should make. I fully am on board with them trying to buy low when I got like Christian Fulton for that exact reason. We've seen him play at a high level before. I had the, speaking of just change and buy in. Like, I'm totally on board with this, like having a mindset change. Like, if your players give a shit on defense, it makes a huge difference. I had the Packers as a top 10 defense when we did our show yesterday. Like, I just think that that sort of transition matters. And I think you could make an adjacent argument for what potentially could happen with Jesse Minter in L.A. And the history of Harbaugh's hiring

coaches, developing coaches, that impacts me. That just like, hey, the guy Minter replaced is Mike McDonald. That worked out pretty, you know, like I didn't, I didn't know how Mike McDonald was. is going to be with the Ravens when John stole them from Jim. So I tend to think, okay, the guy that replaced him is probably pretty good, too. Sticking LA here, how worried are you about all the Rams injuries? We got Puka hurt. We got offensive linemen out right now. Are you at all concerned about what this means for week one in the early part of the season?

Yes, because of the offensive line. You know, they lost a couple of cornerbacks. Darius Williams will see that's not a strong position. Dary and Kendrick's out. Pooka, it sounds like, to me, pretty minor. It was a burst of the sack thing. wasn't like a, I think they're just being really careful. He, I'm not worried about him. But to have three offensive linemen that are week to week to have your two tackles week to week.

And Havenstein is an older player. Yeah, that's that's brutal. And they haven't been able to protect that at practices. You just, you just hate for that to sort of set the tone for a season because this is not a team that I think feels they have great offensive line depth. Not many teams do, but, but they're definitely not one of them. 100%. And if Jonah Jackson didn't have the injury history that he has, maybe I'd be a little bit less worried. But the fact that he struggled to stay healthy for the last two years, you gave him a boatload of money. And the first thing he does is get hurt. You start pulling the janga blocks out. And that starts getting me a little bit concerned at this stage in the calendar. It's also supposed to be their identity. Like this is what they went big on was, okay, we found something with our running game. Like we realized if we spend all our money on the offensive line and they like Allerick Jackson.

Obviously, they like Havenstein. And so if you suddenly take away from what your identity was supposed to be, yeah, the whole thing could fall apart. Walk me through your initial trauma when you saw imaging in a tweet about Gino Smith. It was tough because it was one of those. Someone sent it to me and I didn't see the whole tweet. So I want my heart stopped, especially this season where it's grub and these weapons. And look, to be, we've had a great ride, Gino Nation. to be where we are today is kind of, you never would have possibly expected it.

And yet, don't you feel 2024 coming into this season like it could go to another level, which seems crazy. We're at year three of this of the genocence. And like it's been more than I ever imagined. I always thought he could be like a really good above average, like fun to watch quarterback. And yet this feels like the highest ceiling possible. So to have that ripped away before it even started felt devastating. And yet he's fine.

now he's back at practice and I think we're good. I was terrified. You are the conductor of the Gino train. Like, you are, that is a position that you own and I fully respect it. But I feel like I've been deputized as like a fellow member of all of this. And so when that happened, I was so frightened because I'm in the exact same spot that you are. Should you and I and other Gino believers be happy that it's gotten this far? Sure, but I'm greedy.

And I want to see how far we can take this thing. And I actually do think that it is. set up to take it to another level. So the fact that that was almost ripped away before the season even got started, it was pretty devastating. And I'm just very, very happy that we don't have to contend with that. I like the Connor Williams signing, the former center from the dolphins, because the interior line, that is the concern, the offensive line. Totally. There in general. And yeah, I'll accept you as a conductor. But if you want to Google right now, if you're listening to this or Robert, if you just want some great reading, you know, you can find my Making the Leap article

of Gino Smith on NFL.com from 2014. I don't know. What was the year where he finished the season really strong and saved Rex Ryan's job? And yet Rex Ryan had no freaking love for him anyways. And then he didn't get the job, of course, the next year because of the punch. So that was a four-game stretch.

I was like, this is it. Gino is going to be a great quarterback. It's out there. Let's talk about some buzzy young players that have looked good. Not only young players. There's three young guys and one guy who we know, but it is in a different situation.

You buy in Malik neighbors being like the hottest thing that has ever hit an NFL training camp so far. Yes, to the point that he's like the one in New York and that he'll have a nice fantasy season, whether it's 1,050 yards and five touchdowns or it's like 1,300 yards, something like that. Like we've seen wide receivers come into the league now so many times ready to go because of the offenses and just because of their sophistication. I don't see why neighbors can't be that guy this year. The opportunity is going to be there. So, yes, I'm buying it to that degree. I think so, too.

I'm buying the workload. I don't know what the construction of this Giants offense is going to be. It's honestly one of the biggest questions I have about any team coming into the season because we got no answers last year. They could not run an NFL offense because of the quality of the offensive line. And so I feel like I have no sense for where they wanted to take it after year one with Daniel Jones. and I still don't think I have a very good one. But if this team throws the ball a normal amount, I think that there's a chance he gets like an obnoxious amount of targets.

Like we're talking like 30% of the team targets based on what he has shown so far, some of the stuff I heard when I was there, and how he fits considering the rest of the pecking order at that position with the Giants right now. If this team throws the ball 600 times, like he's getting like 180 targets. Like that would not be crazy to me, considering what else they have. I buy it because they just need a juice in such a bit, the worst way. I think Wondale Robinson has a role in a good offense in the NFL. And so that's one other player like, okay.

The question is, is this a good offense in the NFL? No, probably not. But he had a stretch late last season where I'm like, okay, I think he's going to be in the NFL. I think he can be like a good three or whatever he's going to be where he can make sense. So that's two guys to build around. And they're one of those teams of Saints or another. where I just feel like the variance, it's not good in our business as an analyst to be that vague, whereas like, I have no idea.

They, like, if you told me they had the number one overall pick, I feel like that's in the realm of possibility. And yet, like, there are ways you can see them winning eight games. Like, that's the NFL. And I can't be totally convinced that, okay, year three of this build, maybe Joe Shane, maybe it makes a little more sense on the inside than it feels like it does on the outside. I'm right there with you. I think they could absolutely be the worst team in the league, but I also could see them being pretty competent on offense.

Defense is harder. I actually like Shane Bowen. I think he's done a lot of, he did a lot of really good things in Tennessee with defenses that were often decimated by injury and had plenty of holes. They just have so much youth on the back end. I mean, there's so many young guys they're relying on. I think that's also part of the conversation about Malik neighbors right now,

is the guys he's going against in training camp and what the competition looks like on the other side with how many young DBs they have. I think on defense they'll struggle even with a decent front because that front is not deep at all. They don't even know who their other interior defensive tackle is. It's exciting that they have Brian Burns, Kvon-Dibito, and Dexter Lawrence, but how many good defensive lines in the NFL are built out of three people in 2024? I hear you. You're right.

You're counting on health more than anything. And there may be counting on playing those guys a lot of snaps, which they have in the pat. Like they could be players. That's a very good point. because the Raiders played three defensive linemen last year, essentially, and the Raiders defensive line was very good. So if those guys are playing 1,100 snaps like Max Crosby, then maybe they can get to a place that they're happy about.

Yeah, it's tough. Maybe the cornerbacks, I mean, on paper, it looks rough. And very weird coming out of their camp that, like, Deonti Banks wasn't always getting all the first team snaps. I was like, wow, really? I think he struggled a little bit. Watching him in one-on-ones against neighbors, he was clearly frustrated. And so I think that he's not necessarily having the same thing.

smoothest go of it so far. Cornerbacks are unpredictable, but you would think maybe they'll just look better now that Wink Martindale isn't there asking them to just like hang on an island while he blitzes like crazy. Yeah, it's a little bit more quarters. It might be a little helpful to the very young defensive back group. Let's stick with some rookies here. The Amarius Mims hype coming in, really kind of wrestling away the opportunity with

Trump Brown missing a huge chunk of cap, apparently has looked good. Dan pitcher their offensive coordinator, all the red flags that would prevent. If I've been a player like a Marius from having long-term success in this league, we haven't seen any of them. It's still early. He's got to stack up good days on good days, and he's a rookie. He's going to have things that will pop up. But when you just talk about character traits, work ethic, confidence, humility, being good teammate, fitting in with the guys, feeling this isn't too big. All those things.

Check, check, check, check, check. Six checks. How do we feel about this? I mean, I'm somewhere in the middle, but it's obviously better than the alternative. tackle is such a difficult position to come into the NFL and matter right away. We've just seen it over and over. So while all this is positive, if we get to week one and he's starting and he has some ups and downs, that's not going to surprise you.

But I still think it's a good sign that he's probably further along than some of these tackles that have really struggled coming out of the gates. And I always was a little wary of how much everyone was counting on Trent Brown there because Trent Brown is just the ultimate mystery box of when he's on the field and right, like your team is better. But you just, he hasn't stretched out seasons like that or year to year. You just never know what's going to happen. And he hasn't been on the field at all for this Bengals team in camp,

which to me just wasn't like a huge surprise. So they might need Mims. Jalen Polk, early vibes and early hype on Jalen Polk so far in training camp. I'm sure you've been paying attention to this. How are you feeling about the Jalen Polk early returns? That I'm not buying too much. or not getting overly excited. I like that him and J. Vaughn Baker are earning rotation spots.

Like, they'll be two of the top four. Baker especially is a nice surprise to hear that. But I got to see it. I've been, you know, there's been too many Taekwan Thorntons and Hartley Dykes over the year. I'm going way back for that way. I should have gone with the Belichick wide receivers, but second round wide receivers. But like, okay, let's see it.

Chad Jackson maybe. Yeah, it's nice that they're outplaying Juju and Thornton and stuff. so you like to hear that, that they're going to have a chance to prove themselves this year. We're going to play a game before we get out of here. I want to talk about post-hype guys, guys who have been players that teams have thought they were going to rely on, and it seems like they've kind of drifted into the background, and now they may be back. And that's kind of what the initial reports and spin has been like, we're going to call this hope or cope. I'm going to give you a player.

I'm going to give you sort of the vibe around them right now, and you're going to tell me whether there's actual hope here or there's just a lot of coping in the response that we've seen. Jameson Williams, okay? This is the most confident I've seen him since he's been here, Dan Campbell said on July 29th. He came in with the right mindset. We started talking this offseason, and that has not waned one bit. Hope or cope with Jameson Williams?

Oh, that's hope. Come on, Dan Campbell gives it to us real. He was pretty down on Jameson Williams in general when he spoke about him. And I thought with their usage late last season, that said everything that when it really mattered in the series where they were trying to get to their first season, Super Bowl ever. He's the one on the field in two receiver sets. He's the one getting the ball,

made some plays. There was that one from Purdy that went, I mean, not from Purdy, from Goff, that went through his arms, you know, up the sideline that, but I think he's steadily done it. And your reporters on the scene there, like Colton Pouncey have been talking about it, that it's day after day after day. So I think it's hope. What is the best version of James and Williams look like within this office? Like, what sort of role and what sort of receiver are we talking about here because this is one of the things that I can't quite figure out. Without Josh Reynolds, is he going to handle some of that in breaking stuff on third down? Is he mostly going to be a vertical player?

Like, what is Jameson Williams with this offense in the best case scenario in your mind? Yeah, I think it's sprinkling in a little bit of that. And then it's, you know, being a more consistent Will Fuller. Because, you know, in Will Fuller, man, some real wide receiver pulls on this show. I mean, at his best. I just mean, like, he's the. He's the explosive element on the outside this offense needs, but you have to keep the defenses on us and be able to do some of the normal stuff too.

And that is what I saw late last season. I think it wasn't a ton, but you just saw him have some curls, some in breaking routes. And just like, okay, that's a normal timing throw that Goff now trusts him on that he is getting in a regular season game. And you just never saw that before or even in a playoff game. And so he's just got to have a little bit of that. I don't think he's ever going to be a true one. But I think he can be a quality starter.

Javante Williams, he of the 3.6 yards per carry last year on 217 carries. He looks like a completely different player now, Sean Payton said on Monday, per our Nick Cosmiter here at the Athletic. He's fully healthy now and you can see it in his play. Hope or cope with Javante Williams? That's cope until I see the preseason. And if he's really popping, I'll switch it. But with Sean Peyton, you always wonder about ulterior motives.

and I feel like Javonte Williams could definitely be available for like a third day, a day three draft pick this camp. So I'm keeping that in mind. I want to believe because Javante Williams, when he was healthy, he was such an exciting player. So part of me just doesn't want to give up the ghost there. Part of me doesn't want to just surrender that image I have of him at his best. So I think I'm choosing to believe this, but that's not rooted in anything reasonable.

I don't have any good reason to do it. Yeah, I mean, you're putting me in a tough spot here. It's hope season. Like, I'm hoping that for all these guys. This is what you can bring. This is why I need you here because you actually are able to see this stuff for real. I am just too optimistic all the time. Well, I want to see him play because it obviously was a devastating injury.

And it's not rare for the guy to be better two years out than they are one year out. It's one of the reasons why last year, even though I know it was a different injury with Pollard, and everyone blamed it on, oh, now he's the primary guy. He's not the guy. I was like, yeah, it's because everyone assumed he'd be the same guy coming off like a broken ankle and leg like immediately. That doesn't happen. And so hopefully the player, you know, trust his knee and he's just healthier. Chase Young of Now of the New Orleans Saints.

Dennis Allen said, according to the team website last week, I would say he's exceeded my expectations to this point. Just in terms of I didn't really know the player. I knew him coming about Ohio State, the talent that he had and saw him playing the league, but I didn't know him personally. the way he's gone about his business, the way he's come to work every day, he's done everything we've asked him to do, the way we've asked him to do it, never has there been any sort of kickback or anything. I've been really pleased with that part of it. As you watch practice, I think you can really feel it when he's out there. Hope or cope with Chase Young. That's hope. I went down to what was the strangest training camp. Maybe I've ever been to.

Zero fans. The media is pretty far away from, well, not always. It depends what field. We were taping and they have a couple of things. fields, but it's just so quiet there. But I got a good close-up look of Chase Young doing a lot of stuff. And I'm going hope. I think he's the perfect Saints defensive end. I think even last year, he showed what type of player he could be moving forward. He's not going to be a refined pass rusher with all these moves.

But at his best, can he be like Marcus Davenport's best season? Like when he was fully healthy, can he be a career arc like Jedevi and Clownie where just powerful and in wearing you out and you're just sick of that power rush of just like, I'm stronger than you play after, play after play, pushing that guy. I thought he did a little bit. I think he did a better job of that in Washington last year. And yes, all the reports and what I saw was he's healthy. I mean, he's cut up. If I could, if I could pick one set of abs that I happen to see in all my camps, I might go chase young. Oh, it's Djoku for me. He's always got that rolled up jersey. I was with the Browns like two days ago.

It's definitely in Joku on my end. Well, that's the thing. The guys who have him show him off. So, yeah, Chase Young does that too. He wears the cutoff and everything. But I was just like, goddamn, that is a fit human being. The Chase Young thing,

it's not really a low risk, low, but buy a low sort of thing. They paid him $13 million guaranteed. But because it's the Saints, they threw 17 void years on it. So he has a $3.4 million cap hit this year. I think that's a good risk management sort of signing. High reward.

Like, the guy's still very young. and play at a high level. And I think they do need, they needed an injection of youth just among that group, period. This is an old offense. I don't think he's going to be a pro bowler, but he's the kind of guy Dennis Allen likes. And so I think he fits in that scheme. And if he can be a plus starter sort of just below that pro bowl level, they'll be happy with that. Arsad Yusuf here at the Athletic, he said to this point, the Jalen Tolbert hype is real.

It needs to carry over to regular season games, but Tolbert has been the number two receiver and drawn the attention of some of the top players in the Cowboys secondary. Tolbert has responded by consistently getting open and Dak Prescott has gone his way a lot. They haven't always connected, but Tolbert has rarely dropped catchable passes and made a lot of great plays along the sideline. Hope or cope with Jalen Tolbert in year three?

I'll go cope just because I've been burned by so many Cowboys Camp stories over the years. I didn't go to Oxnard this year. This is the first time in a long time. And look, I don't buy, I believe that he's played better than Brandon Cooks in Camp, which I've heard on some podcasts. you know, from Cowboys people because Cooks is, I think, a bit of a problem for them.

But I also don't know if he's just the best receiver because he's, you know, lack of competition there. That's kind of how it feels. I mean, he's looking really good compared to the guys he's playing against it. It's not a deep group. When I was there, I was kind of shocked. I mean, you know Jaylen Tolbert. You know Brandon Cooks. And other than that, it's like, I'm trying to figure some of the names.

Jalen Brooks, Turpin. Turpin, obviously. Yeah, there's, oh, God, what's the one guy's name where I kept seeing him make plays. and I was like, is that a real person? It was, oh, Tyrone Billy Johnson. The fact, his last name is Billy hyphen Johnson. He was doing a lot of camp when I was there. And again, I think that speaks to what that group looks like,

saying C.D. Lamb. So I think I'm going cope there, too, with J. I'm not sure that I buy it. This is a good one. A.J. Dillon. This is the best I've seen him, hands down, and I think he'd tell you the same. Matt Lefleur said to our Matt Schneiderman earlier this week.

I think it's just a testament to the work he's put in. He came back. He's in great shape. Shoot, I was joking with the other day. You could see the abs on him, speaking of abs. That's hard for a big man to do. Looks like he's in great shape. I think he's in a great place mentally.

Obviously, we know what he's capable of doing. And I think he's really in a position to show his best. Hope or cope with AJ Dylan at this stage of his career. Hope. He's a little like Christian Fulton in that he's shown in stretches. He can be an effective running back. And I think he's at an age where he saw his career flash before his eyes when he was on the free agent market. and there wasn't a lot of interest, and he had to come back to Green Bay where, you know,

he was either the second or the third running back coming into camp. I think probably now he's ahead of Marshawn Lloyd. Like, he's not going to change the entire Packers offense, but I think he can absolutely be a nice, you know, rotation compliment to Jacobs or Lloyd, and they'll probably take turns, you know, getting banged up or something. He's a good RB, too. I'll take him. This is tough for my pro-Marshan Lloyd agenda, because I really had a story.

strong one going into this season and we're really starting to chip away at that unfortunately. But good for AJ Dylan. It depends though. Jacobs. Yeah, Jacobs could be every other year. He's had a little bit of injury issues at camp. So you might see a Lloyd Dylan backfield for a while. Last one, I feel like you're the person to ask about this because you just talked to him like two weeks ago. J.K. Dobbins. J.K. Dobbins looks like potentially the starter with the with the Chargers. Daniel Popper was writing about him. He had a really explosive like 15-yard run like around the a couple weeks ago, said he looks really good. The explosion was eye-popping.

Hope or cope with J.K. Dobbins post-Akelleys. Oh, Hope. I'm all the way there. I mean, this is one of those where I love the way he runs, the way he sees the field. He just has that, you can't define it, but he seems to see things ahead of time. Like, the game goes slow for him, and I love running backs like that. You know, at their best, it's like a Frank Gord, Emmett Smith type. I'm not saying he could be at, but that style of back. And I was only there one day, but yeah, you could see it.

He looked incredibly explosive in the way that I was just like, wow, I'm kind of shocked coming off in Achilles. He's getting the opportunity with the first team. They won't want to overdo him. They'll split the carries up with him and Gus Edwards or whoever is back there as long as Edwards is healthy. It'll be him. But yeah, big time hope. I've always believed in JK Dobbins. That would be amazing.

I mean, there aren't that many success stories about guys coming back from those sorts of injuries, especially running backs. Like maybe he could beat Deonté Foreman. You know, there haven't been that many. But if he is, I would love that because I've always really appreciated him as a player. And I've always appreciated you as a guest, Greg Rosenthal. Please tell people where they can check out what you're working on right now. Oh, my gosh, so much. I know you've lived this life, Robert.

NFL Daily. Yeah, we're doing it over there. So it's been fun doing all the camp updates, like running through like every team we can at AFC, NFC, and all the preseason games. So we're rolling daily over there. I know how that life goes. And you are a stronger man than I am at this stage. So please go check out the work Greg is doing.

To me, one of the best voices on the NFL period and just, again, can do such a great job of kind of waiting through all this nonsense and telling you what you need to know. So if you have not subscribed to NFL Daily, highly encourage you to do that. Greg, thanks for the time, sir. We'll talk to you very soon.

Appreciate you, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Greg Rosenthal. Thank you guys for listening. We will be back on Tuesday. We're starting our division previews. We're going to start with the AFC North. I've already hit all those teams.

and it's an exciting division. It's arguably the best division in football. I'm in Cincinnati as I record this, and there's a lot of excitement here. And pretty much in all of these stops with these AFC Newark teams, I think all of them have playoff aspirations, and for some of them, I think even beyond that.

So couldn't really think of a better place to start. So we're going to start that on Tuesday with Derek. For now, though, for me, for our producer, Michael Beller. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We will be back next week.