The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The very good, but maybe not great, 2025 NFL Draft offensive line class

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

A great comedy movie isn't going to win any Oscars, but it's a fun two hours at the movies. That's the offensive line class in the 2025 NFL Draft. It may not be stocked with potential future All-Pros, but it does have more than its fair share of players who project as quality starters. Dane Brugler and Brandon Thorn from the Trench Warfare Substack join Robert Mays to break down the class on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dane Brugler and Brandon ThornExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dane on Bluesky: @danebrugler.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerFollow Brandon on X: @BrandonThornNFLTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is our last positional breakdown of the 2025 draft cycle. Me, Dane Brugler, Brandon Thorne from the Trench Warfare Podcast and Substack and Bleacher Report, breaking down the offensive line group from the 2025 draft. We hit the tackles, guards, and centers that Dane and Brandon had going essentially in the first couple rounds. And then we talked about some day three or round three or later players at virtually every single position. We talked about this beginning of the show, but an enjoyable group of offensive linemen,

a group I enjoyed watching more than I thought I might have based on the way that it had been talked about. So really enjoyed that conversation with Dane and Brandon. Before we get to that, quick reminder, tomorrow, Thursday, 7.30 p.m. Eastern, live on the Athletic Football Show YouTube channel. Me, Dane, Derek Klesson, Bruce Feldman, breaking down every single pick of round one, doing it live from a studio in Chicago, very, very excited about this year's verse. of the draft show. We'll be back on Friday night, 6.30 p.m. Eastern, me, Dane, Derek, a bunch of guests from the athletic newsroom reacting to every single pick from the second and third rounds.

One of my favorite things that we do, we've done over the last five years. I think it's gotten better every single year. We've done it very much looking forward to this year's version of the live draft show. And if you guys can make it, we would love to have you tune in and join us for draft night. So looking forward to that. But for now, let's get to the conversation about this year's offensive line class with Dane Bruegler and Brandon Thorne right now. I'm excited about this one.

This one is for the real draft sickos. And I have two guys on here who are going to help me dive into this in just the perfect sort of way. We're doing the offensive linemen today. And I have two wonderful guests who do more work on these guys than just about anybody. First of all, it is our draft expert at the athletic Dane Bruegler. Dane, big day. Big day with the big men. That's it.

And look, every team needs these guys. All 32 teams. I was going through team needs earlier, just getting prepared for Thursday. And like every single team is like, okay, offensive tackle, interior offensive line. Like every single team needs, it's not a starter, more depth. So these guys are going to go pretty quickly Thursday, Friday night. Also joining us today from Bleacher Report and from the trench warfare substack. It's our old buddy, Brandon Thorne.

Brandon, how are you feeling today? I'm doing great, guys. Anytime I could be here for offensive line, I'm a happy guy. We were talking a little bit before we got on the microphone, and I wanted to start the conversation here. And obviously, when I come to these guys, there's kind of a preconceived notion of the individual players, but also of the class in general. And I feel like, Dane, it hasn't been framed as a bad offensive line class, but it hasn't been framed as a good offensive line class. And so coming into it, I had sort of tempered expectations for what this group was going to look like. But as I went through pretty much every single guy you have in the first two rounds, a lot of the tackles, but even some of the.

of the guards. I liked almost everybody that I watched. There are very clear limitations to a lot of these guys. And I think the ceiling for a lot of them is capped because of some of those limitations, whether they be frame-wise, movement skill-wise. There's one little war or one little caveat with pretty much everybody. But I think the floor is pretty high with a lot of them. Where in the last couple years, it felt like in the first round, especially the back-out of the first round, we had tackles that were gifted projects. It feels like this group is maybe a little bit less gifted, but they're also a little bit less of a project pretty much across the board.

And that's why I think studying them was actually kind of enjoyable because right now most of them are good football players, even if pretty much every single one of them has a limitation of some kind. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And it's like you hear over and over how a movie wasn't very good. And so maybe you skip it in the theater, but then six months later you catch it on demand, and you're like, hey, this wasn't bad.

But in your mind, you were programmed to think a certain way, and then when you finally go to see them, it's like, hey, you know what? These are actually some good players. And it's one of those cases where maybe the ceiling doesn't get you overly excited, but you don't have to have your arm twisted to really see the floor and what it could be to help your football team. So it'll be an interesting test case this year where, you know, we've talked about it all draft season, how this isn't,

maybe the deepest class at certain positions, especially in that, you know, five to 20 range. So does, you know, like a Kelvin Banks has a lot of late one, early two round grades, you know, does he go top 15 because teams are just like, hey, we know what he is, he's solid, that we could use that on our offensive line. So I'm really interested to see this class specifically as just a test case of just how desperate a lot of teams are for offensive line and maybe they draft those guys a little bit earlier. I love the movie comparison because this offensive line class feels like a really good comedy where they're not going to win an Oscar, but that's not what they're trying to do, like for what it is and what they're trying to accomplish.

It's actually pretty enjoyable. So I think that's a very good comparison. Brandon, as you studied this group overall, what were your bigger picture takeaways? I think both you and Dane had like seven offensive linemen in the top 35 to 40, which isn't a bad class. And again, I think that you have enthusiasm for a decent amount of these guys, even if there are some. question marks across the board. Yeah, I mean, I think you guys are framing it the right way. This is a class with a lot of, you know, the middle class of the offensive line is really good,

I would say, you know, just it you're going to have solid to good starters. I think it outside, you know, tackle and guard, maybe a couple centers. It's not as deep or as, you know, top heavy as of a class as we had last year. So I think that's why, you know, just some of recency bias, you know, comparing it one to one last year. It's a little different. It's not as sexy at the top, but there's still going to be, you know, a half dozen or more, you know, instant starter kind of guys who could be a little bit more potentially if they're in the right situation. So yeah, I think I'm in line with you guys overall. I will say the centers are, that's definitely a difference between this year and last year,

where last year you had, you know, a bunch of guys in the first two rounds that you felt good about. I think the centers in this group are a tick down from those guys. Even the, guy was the number one center for a lot of people has never played center. You know, Zabel was interesting and he's exciting, but I think that this class, that's the position that's probably the most different from the 2024 crop. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, there's like two to maybe three centers that I would draft in the first few rounds. And then aside from that, you're talking about more firmly day three guys who could potentially earn a job over time. So, yeah, last year, I think, what do we have, six rookie centers in the NFL that actually started game?

or so, and there's still a couple that haven't even got a chance yet that could start in the future. So I don't know if we're going to see that necessarily. Let's start with the tackles, and we're just going to go essentially top to bottom with this group. We're going to talk about the players that essentially both of you guys have as first or second round picks at tackle. And, Dane, we're going to start with Will Campbell. He is your sixth overall player. He is your offensive tackle one. One interesting note is that Brandon actually has him as a guard, which we can talk about.

but he is your highest rated offensive tackle Dane. The Will Campbell experience in watching him was kind of fascinating. You watch him play, and I completely understand the length limitations and where they're going to show up. Watching him stay on balance and mere guys is insane. Like, it's truly incredible his ability to move and recover. Like, when you watch Will Campbell before contact, I don't necessarily think he looks like a top 10 pick.

And then you watch him maintain contact and maintain a little. block all the way through the play and it's actually pretty remarkable. So, Dane, even with some of the length concerns, arm length concerns, what still made you comfortable putting Will Campbell as high as you did? The fact that he was an 18-year-old freshman shows up to Baton Rouge, wins the left tackle job, and just very consistent the last three years, it wasn't always pretty, but he gave up two sacks over his last 30 starts. And he did it in different ways.

He's very controlled in his movements. He is an athletic mover. he tested well at the combine, which matches up what he put on tape. And he's very, very strong. You know, I think a lot of, a lot of guys this size, you think about like Jake Matthews or, like, they didn't really have just the power that he has. And part of that comes from just the mechanically sound process that he has. It's very technically proficient. He understands how to use, you know, every part of, it's not just upper body strength where he's using that to over.

overpower guys. It's it's the way that he can from the ground up, that ground force and really use that to his advantage. So it's it's something where if he can stay in front of a guy, he and once he gets engaged, you rarely see him get beat. And so there, I think you're right. There are times where that length, those length concerns show up, especially just he's so narrow. He's a taller guy, narrow shoulders. So it's a very relevant concern. And I, I, I'll talk about. totally understand it, but once he's, he's able to stay in front of a guy and get engaged, he's a hard guy to get away from. Yeah. And for me, I mean, that, that kind of is why I see him best at guard for all those reasons. You know, I just think kind of condensing that space for him

would really just play into what he does well. The fact that his wingspan is, you know, it's not just low. It's extremely low. I mean, it'd be the lowest, you know, of all time, I think, in terms of combined data from till 99 for tackles. Willie Lampkin has a bigger wing spin than Will Campbell. You know, so I, and I just think it's, you know, you kind of hit it on the head, Dane, in terms of, you know, when he's able to get guys, you know, framed up. Yeah, I mean, he latches, he anchors, he's very good at sustaining from there. It's just, you know, on an island at tackle, it's very difficult to get guys lined up in the NFL.

Now, if he's in a system where it's, you know, run first, you know, close to like a Philly or a Detroit type of system, you know, where you're going to be running play action a good amount as well. And you're putting all these things around him to sort of give him some help in past protection and to minimize those true dropback situations. Yeah, he's going to play tackle. And he could like a Braden Smith or Bernard Raymond, somebody like that. So I think it could work. And the fact that teams are so starve, especially like, you know, the Patriots are four for left tackle. There's just, I think part of the reason why he's probably going to go that high is there's just not another better option,

you know, and I think that's kind of what it is. I mean, and I like Campbell. He's my highest rated offensive linemen in this draft. But I think going into the year, many people told me, yeah, this guy's a guard or a center all day. I watched him. And I was like, man, yeah, could he play tackle. Yeah, I mean, Betonio, Toonie, Zach Martin, they could play tackle. But, I mean, let's put them at guard and let's let, let's, do you want a solid player or do you want a great player? And I think that's kind of what it comes down to for me. So yeah, he could play tackle, but I just like him at guard better. He's such a physical kind of anomaly and watching him is strange, Dane, because he does have a very narrow upper body. But when you watch him play, the way he maintains his base is remarkable.

In the three games I watched of him, I don't think I saw him off balance with his shoulders over his toes one time in the three games that I watched him. So even though he has a narrow upper body, his ability to maintain his base and his lower body is incredible. So when you watch him, it's like, I don't really understand how he's doing some of the things he's doing, but the guy across from him never wins. Like that's my experience watching the games I watched of Will Campbell. It's consistently controlled and patient. And he does that in the run game. Great posture. Yes.

No doubt. No doubt. Well, and it's something where it, in a learn this from Duke, Maniweather, it's playing offensive line is all about the ability to get yourself out of compromised positions. Like, that's what it all comes down to. It's almost like playing corner. Like you are going to be in a compromised position. It's just how do you get yourself out of it?

and he does a very good job of even if he gets beat off the snap or, you know, it doesn't look pretty at first. He's able to recover very, very efficiently and, you know, gain the upper hand and understand what he needs to do to be able to be in a position to, at the very least, stalemate the guy. So it's so he's an easy player to appreciate. I think a lot of teams are kind of taking the approach with him, like, yeah, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, he can play tackle because he did it on film, but we know there's a realistic outcome where we might be moving him inside to guard. And we're okay with that because we feel like no matter what, we are upgrading one of our offensive line spots. And so, you know, whether or not that's how like a team like the Patriots would view him or if they're totally bought in on him being a left

tackle, I think a lot of teams are just taking to having the attitude that we're going to get better on the offensive line one way or another with this guy. And we feel good about that. the landing spot probably matters here, right? Because with the Patriots, they need him to play left tackle if they draft him forth overall. If he goes to Jacksonville, there's no reason he couldn't play guard as a rookie as they sort out what they're going to do with a player like Walker Little. So Brandon, it feels like... Brandon Shirf all over again. Exactly, right?

And that's the last guard that probably went this high. Quentin Nelson, right? But Quentin, we knew was a guard the whole time. Shirf was a college tackle. He moved inside. So I feel like the landing spot, Brandon, is probably going to determine whether he's a guard or tackle. even if in an ideal scenario, his ceiling might be higher as a guard than is as a tackle. Yeah, like I was just saying before, I think situation, what you're asking to do,

the construction of the offensive line room around him. I mean, that's all going to matter a lot. This isn't a, you know, shoe in tackle prospect, in my opinion, like maybe a couple of these other guys are. And I think I just wanted to also kind of connect the dots on the thing that we're saying about Campbell that makes him so special in terms of being able to maintain that flat back posture, his head out of blocks, not lose his core strength or his contact balance. That's the difference between him and a guy like Kelvin Banks, in my opinion. But I'm sure we'll get there.

I just, I wanted to say that because that's the difference to me and those two. It's a great point. I think it's a difference between him and even a lot of guys in this class. Like Connerley doesn't have that core strength. Like even the guys with movement skills, they don't maintain through the play in the way that Will Campbell does. And I do think that's the separator for him. Yeah.

He grew up kind of idolizing. Andrew Whitworth. They're both kind of from the same area in Louisiana and, you know, different body types, obviously, but he's been, you know, building towards this for a long time. And I think we just have to mention the, well, we've talked about it before, but the Combine, the Pro Day, like the different arm lengths and all that. I absolutely 100% believe that the arm lengths were mismeasured at the Combine. That's how NFL teams are looking at it. but the wingspan at the combine, that was pretty consistent. And that's where, so it's 100% of believe 33 inch arms.

I'm good with that. The wingspan that was measured correctly at the combine, and that's definitely 77. 77 and a half. Like that's very, very short for an offensive tackle. Just to put that in the context, I'm looking at the list of tackles in this draft, my top 25, 26. There's only one other player, one other tackle with under 80. That's crazy.

for a wing stand. And he's a 76 and a half, which is. How far do you think he could fall, Dan? Not that he should, but like, where is the floor to you for where Will Campbell could go in this draft? Probably 10. And that's a stretch. It just feels like in a draft where teams picking five to 12 are feeling like they're not going to get relative to other drafts players that are, you know, Patrick Tritan was what the ninth overall pick.

Like a Parsons was, like, we're just not going to get those guys in that range. So a team's going to jump at Will Campbell. If he's there, I think, you know, the Raiders at six are a possibility. The Jets at seven, if you got the 10, the Bears are, I don't think the Bears would let him get another pick. So he's going to be a top 10 pick. It's just anywhere from 4 to 10, it's kind of, you know, it's going to be interesting. And I think it's also worth mentioning that this is, you know, kind of a cornerstone, cornerstone player in terms of locker room presence and all that sort of stuff as well.

He's a very easy guy to bet on. if you're not sure of the position, you feel really good about who he's going to be in your building for a long time. So, like, that's, I think that's a big part of his evaluation. Let's keep moving down the list here. Let's get to Armand Membou from Missouri. Dane, he is your seventh overall player. Brandon, you had him as your number one offensive tackle

because you had Will Campbell graded as a guard. I loved watching him. Like, I absolutely loved watching him. If I were an offensive line coach, Brandon, this is a guy where I would just talk myself into it immediately because he has such impressive physical traits, right? He's big, he's thick, he's powerful, he's explosive. But he's also more refined as a pass blocker than a raw prospect typically is, right?

You watch him play the independent hands, the timing of the strikes, like he sets up really well as a pass blocker. There's some balance issues every once in a while. But I think the floor ceiling combo with what he's bringing to the table and how powerful he is as a run blocker compared to a lot of guys in this group. He is a tantalizing prospect for some of these teams who need a tackle in the top 10 range. Yeah, absolutely. And just for context over the last few years, he's in the bucket of like a J.C.

Latham or a Christian Derrissau for me in terms of grade. But yeah, I mean, this guy, he's very young. He carries 330 pounds extremely well. It's very, you know, high-end comp-wise on paper, the way he looks and physical traits-wise, it's Jason Petersesque, maybe a little bit heavier, Ikea Guano, Dwayne Brown, kind of. He's like in that 6-4 and change, 330, 320 and change plus guy who's loose fluid and explosive. The thing, he's a tackle all day, even though he's a little shorter, just, and I say that because in past protection, it's his range.

It's his ability to protect the corner. His feet don't get stuck hardly ever. He's able to redirect and carry rushers up the arc, and he does that very fluidly. Um, that's kind of a, you know, a tall tail sign to me of a guy who's, who could definitely stick a tackle. I think he could play left or right. Um, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I just think he's scratching the surface. Uh, and I think that the best football's in front of him, absolutely. So yeah, I'm, I'm a big fan of Membu and you could see it right away. You don't have to squint with him. It's the, from the first play you watch, like the first time he sets up and just like a true dropback

situation. It's like, all right, I could talk myself into this. And then, Dane, when we talk about 330 pound tackles. The movement skills he has for a 330 pound tackle, because they ran a lot of zone at Mizzou, and you're watching this massive man, like scoop guys on the backside and get up to the second level. He is a very impressive physical specimen at tackle. There's no doubt about it.

And the thing that stands out the most, to me, is this the body control. Like, it's just very natural for him and his movement. He's so patient, too. It's really impressive. He is. Yes. And with his hands, with his feet, like, you just, yeah, you rarely see him.

And he's for being only 20 years old and just in context on his background, he was not a big time football player growing up. He was late to the game. You know, he went to Lee Summit, the same place, you know, Drew Locke went to in Missouri. And really it was prior to his junior year high school, he hit a gross spurt and really got his chance on the field. And the coaches didn't even recognize him when he showed up for his junior year.

They're like, all right, well, we're going to play you because you're this size and you're this athlete. And it just kind of gradually worked up from there. I think that when he got to Missouri, because he was only a three-star recruit, like he wasn't this big-time guy. He got to Missouri, and I think the Missouri coaches quickly realized, like what they had.

But they already had a left tackle and trench, so they put him at right tackle, and it just worked. So this isn't a case of he can't play on the left side. It's just they had a left tackle, and it was working at right tackle. So why mess up a good thing for Armand Membu? And so it's funny, just to take you. you back to, what was it, Brandon and I had a moment with Arbott Mambu.

Like when he declared, it was like what, late November, like probably around Thanksgiving. I had not really studied him all that much yet because he was a junior who, you know, you just, you don't always get to all the juniors at that point. So he declared and Brandon and I both watched him the same day. And we were texting each other back like, giddy. Like, oh my God, hey, hey, play 34 on the, on the Oklahoma day. or, you know, like, it was just kind of that back and forth. And because it was like, oh, my gosh, like, we've got, it was like we were fishing.

And like, aren't we got one here. We got one. We hooked a big one. Exactly. We were excited to see what the senior bowl just to see how we would do at Love Tackle. And it was a bummer. He was, he showed up to Mobile and he got like just really, really sick that night. Like, he was on IVs.

And so he had a leave Mobile. He never got on the field, which was a bummer. because I think one of the data points missing from his evaluation, could he play a love tackle? And of course, we could have seen that at senior ball practices, but it's still kind of a little bit of a projection at this point, which, you know, there's nothing on the field that says he can't. We just don't have the empirical evidence that says that he absolutely can't.

It's funny that that was your guys' process because I downloaded a bunch of the games on the plane when I flew to Mexico last week. And I'm just sitting there on the plane watching him just smiling. Just all those moments were just like, oh, man, he's really got something. And Brandon, I just love that right hand in past protection, him shooting that right hand and bringing that left hand a little bit later. Like there's some advanced stuff for a guy who's as physically gifted as he is and as as

young as he is, where again, if you're an offensive line coach, it's like there's just a lot that I can work with here. If I'm the Jets at 7, there is like a 0% chance he's on the board at 8, a 0% chance. For a team that needs a right tackle right now, imagine him and Foshanu and some of the guys they have on the interior and what that group could look like from day one. That that to me is very, very exciting. Oh, yeah, that's the spot right there because that's the one position on that offensive line that is still needs to be filled.

And yeah, it's a really nice contrast between him and Fashana as well. Like that would be, yeah, that's ideal. Just wait until they draft Tyler Warren over. It's coming. The two things I'd say, one, he does get a little overextended sometimes. that happens, you know, again, you compare it to Will Campbell, who it never happens to him. It does happen every once in a while with Membu where he can get a little bit out over his toes. And then the other observation I just had about watching Mizzou in general, I don't know how you guys felt.

I thought their offensive line was very well coached. Like the way they handled stunts, the way their backs were going in pass protection. Like, it was actually very impressive considering how bad some offensive lines in the NFL are at that. Like, I actually enjoyed watching Mizzou's past protection plan more. more than I anticipated for a college group. Yeah. Those guys were coached up for sure, right? I mean, Braynor, you probably know more about their offensive line coach and structure better than I do.

But I was, really, and not only him at right tackle, but, you know, Marcus Bryant at left tackle, he's got a shot to get drafted late. You know, their interior held up well. So, yeah, it was a good group overall. Talk about Missouri's struggles on offense. I don't think it was the offensive line. That was the issue. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

And yeah, I mean, you know, it's a great scheme. I mean, it's almost, they're running the ball almost 60% of the time, you know, so it's a very friendly scheme as well. But there's, you know, they still mix in some opportunities for Mbu to get, you know, kind of on an island one-on-one and he passed those. So, yeah, I mean, you touched on a Robert. All the stuff that he has to clean up is all technique-based, you know, with his eyes, his aiming points, his landmarks, you know, things like that,

getting guys crossing his face in the zone run game on the front side. yeah, he's really good at kicking guys out, but guys can get inside of him. Scowards have got him a couple times in that Texas A&M game. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a reoccurring thing. I mean, but for a guy that young who like Dane paints the picture of relatively new to football, all the physical traits, you know, I'm not really too worried about the negative portion of his scouting report. Let's get to Josh Simmons. He is your 20th overall player day in your third offensive tackle.

Brandon, he is your second. offensive tackle, but this is a complicated evaluation just because of the injury. I mean, you watched what he put on tape last year in those five games, and it's as impressive as anything any tackle did. And so that's a complicating factor. When you're trying to weigh what you saw from him last year, Dane, and again, the fact that it was really only one year playing at that level, plus the injury, how are you trying to sort through all those kind of complicating factors with the Josh Simmons evaluation in

this process? Yeah, and it's not only the medicals. I mean, some of the interviews didn't go great for him. just feedback from teams. And so it's just, how do you, how do you take a player that the first month of the season? And I actually, I wrote an article back in early October about like a handful of guys

that could be surprised first rounders because we weren't really talking about Josh Simmons as a first rounder at that point. But based off the first month of the season, it's like, all right, this guy absolutely how nimble he is, how well he moves. Now, the first month of that season for Ohio State wasn't exactly murderers row. But that's why we couldn't,

wait to see him against Oregon and then once into the Big Ten meet of the schedule. And it was such a bummer when he got hurt on that Oregon in an Oregon game, especially it was just non-contact and working his way back, you know, not having any, we not having the full season of tape, not having any of the testing information. It just feels like a very much, an incomplete evaluation. And that's why he's probably going to go in the back half of round one. But it feels like it could be the makings of a complete. complete steel at that point.

If you're getting anything close to what he put on film that first month of the season, you've got something that you can really work with here. And it's funny because even though I've got some of the feedback that the interviews weren't great, like listening to Josh Simmons with Brandon on his podcast and, you know, they go over clips and plays. Like, I mean, he comes off sharp. And so, you know, I think that there will be a lot of teams willing to kind of sit back. And like, you think if he fell to the chiefs at 31, like, that'd be, that'd be ridiculous.

It kind of fits exactly what they're looking for and could end up being a steal for them that, you know, just kind of how it works with some playoff teams. If I'm the Texans, there's a 0% chance I'm letting him get drafted if he's still on the board. There's 0% chance I'm letting him get past me. Brandon, I know that you are, you're a fan of his. And I think a lot of that is probably just rooted in the way that he moves. Like, you watch him move in space. There was a play against Marshall where it was a pinpole where he's like 15 or 20. It was my favorite play because I think it's a perfect encapsulation of him and Seth McLaughlin

because you watch Simmons in space and then McLaughlin's 20 yards downfield cleaning up the guy that Simmons is trying to get to. And I'm like, if I could show one play of these two players, this would be it. But you watch those movement skills in space at that size. I mean, it's rare stuff. And so even if it is sort of an incomplete evaluation on the high end of this, there is potentially a really, really good player at the end of the road. Yeah, he's the guy I get most.

excited about in terms of true tackles in this class. Yeah, Membu's the cleaner evaluation, so I have him graded a little bit higher. But if Simmons played the full season, I don't think there's any question. He would have been my top, probably offensive linemen in the class. And it's for the reasons

you outline. I just think when you're thinking of the prototypical blindside protecting, you know, left tackle in the NFL, there's certain benchmarks guys need to hit in terms of how they look, how they move, and how they execute different things. And I think Simmons does it all in terms of pass protection.

The way he carries his weight, he's so fluid and loose. And he also is explosive as well in the run game. He has power. He has play strength. You know, he can lead around the edge and take out, you know, the force corner. He could cut off the backside and kind of, you know, have shades of, you know, Christian Derosaw coming out to me. Maybe, you know, a little...

That's the player he reminds me of the most. Maybe it's the 71, but just watching him stylistically, he is. is the guy that they remind me very much of each other. He's even probably a little bit more fluid than Derisaw. Derisal's a little bit more bulky, a little bit maybe more stout, I would say, but there's very, very similar, I think. And yeah, I'm just, I'm a huge Josh Simmons fan. And I, you know, it's an incomplete evaluation.

I think that's the best way to put it, some questions. But purely looking at the film this year, I think he had the best tackle film in the class. Hearing you say the Dar esot thing, like gives me chills. Like, it's just like, it's so. clear it's just like it's like a warm feeling like when you watch those two and you can just see how similar they are yeah i'm glad to hear you say that has he he's got strength too like in the movement skills shine i have draftable grades i think on like 50 offensive linemen josh simmons had the most bench press reps of all 50 uh at the pro day he had 33 which says something um he has big hands uh

you know, good length. So size, strength there. But yeah, the movement skills are what really pops. And it shows run game, pass pro. The way he can maintain that wide base, he doesn't allow himself to get too narrow. That really stood out to me. It's really a shame we couldn't see him the whole season just because it would have been, I mean, obviously Ohio State still won the national championship. They figured it out. But just for him as a prospect to see how he would have developed and just grown. Because he started out at San Diego State, wasn't a big time guy coming out. There were some schools that liked him, but it was COVID.

So it was a little bit of a recruitment was a little different for him. And, you know, he goes, he was a right tackle at San Diego State, transfers to Ohio State. Last year at left tackle, it was okay. It was good. But I didn't, I don't know. I don't think it was screamed first round by any means. And so watching him this year is like, all right, this guy's really turned a corner. Let's just see how high he can take it.

What have you heard about the initial feedback on the medical stain? Anything? Just that, you know, when you're dealing with, you know, Patella, it's, it's something that is serious. You know, it's not, it's not always a fix it and everyone recovers the same type of injury. So, you know, there is a little bit of unknown there, just about how. So, like, Hugh, he will be ready for, because they were even talking about there was a chance he could have done a pre-draft workout for teams this month. It didn't happen. But they were at least trying for that, like, it was in the cards.

So they feel good that he'll be ready for at some point during training camp. Like, it might start a little bit light for him. But he'll be, you know, maybe not full go, but close. So, yeah, you mentioned the Texans. Like, that really would be a ideal landing spot when you brought into Camp Robinson to start. at left tackle and you won't have to force him on the field from day one. Like, you know, say the Patriots trade back to 15 or something, you know, and they drafted him there.

There's a little bit of a, you know, be careful because they're probably going to want him to start at left tackle from day one. So a team like the Texans, which would be forced in action. Exactly. Right. So you can kind of bring him along at his own pace and develop him and make sure the injuries, good to go before you throw him out to the wolves. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's why the Houston pairing has made the most sense to me is that,

let's say he's not ready to a week four. And then by week four, you think he's better than Cam Robinson. Who cares? He's done to a one-year deal. It doesn't matter. Like, I do think that that's the landing spot for a bunch of different reasons. That makes a lot of sense. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back with the three other tackles that Dane has in the first two rounds. Let's get to Josh Connerly from Oregon. When I was talking at the beginning about guys who maybe they have a little of a limited ceiling, but they're just good football players right now compared to some of the tackles we've seen drafted in the back half of the first round.

Josh Connolly is kind of the guy I had in mind, Dane. Like when you watch him, it's like, he's not that strong and he's not overwhelming physically, but he's just a good player. He just knows how to move. He's just a really solid sound pass blocker. He's an interesting contrast to the guys, again, that we've seen go in the back half of the first round over the last couple years that have been a little bit more project-y and theoretically had higher ceilings, but probably lower floors than a guy like Connerly does.

Yeah, I just, I really like his foundation of traits. In my report, I call him a bend, but don't break type of type of blocker where, you know, it might not always look exactly pretty or how you draw it up, but he rarely just flat out loses. And you see the movements with him. He can reach his landmarks and pass pro. Also gets a second level in the run game. You know, he is a little bit underdeveloped in some areas.

And, you know, I think that's, he was a top recruit, five-star guy, didn't really play that first year. And then last year, in 2023, you could see the development. You see him get better and better. And so he came into this year, this past year, 24 with expectations. And I thought he played, you know, pretty well for the most part. But again, I thought he got better and better and better. And that's exactly what you want to see from a young player who has tools, has traits. You know, there are some questions about can he play right side?

can he play guard because he's only been a left tackle over his career but you know i think he has the recovery balance he has i think he is a smart guy like watching him against blitzes and stunts i think he doesn't really nice job responding to those so i think both uh physically and then mentally you see a guy that has a really good foundation and he'll continue to get better as he gets more experience bishishish to see what a landing spot would make sense for him in the back half of the first round brandon because when you watch him, it does seem like he'd probably be a better fit in his own scheme, which is based on like the play strength and what he's bringing to the table. And I look at a team like the Rams and it's just like, all right, you know,

having signs the last year of his deal. Could he play right tackle? Is he a right tackle fit in that scheme? And so it was hard to figure out to me as I looked at the teams like a landing spot that made sense. But again, I just think that he is a solid player who would be able to start for you at tackle pretty early on, even if some of those play strength concerns might limit the ceiling we're talking about with a guy like this. Yeah, Rams make a lot of sense,

just because that's one of the more offensive line friendly schemes in the league with all the different things that they do, all the different pictures they present, confusion, you know, things like that, not a lot of true dropback. And if it is,

you know, they can build in some protection for them. I mean, yeah, I like Connerley. You know, I think the athletic ability is really good. He's a really loose fluid mover again. He has the range to protect the corner.

I think we saw that against Abdul Carter, you know, and just even, at the senior bowl. All of his losses, though, I mean, when guys get him squared up and, you know, they can threaten down the middle with a, you know, a decent or better bull rush, things can fall apart. He could get broken down too easily. So, you know, that's really my concern. That's the reason why I don't have him with the first round grade, more of like a high second. But, you know, I certainly believe he's probably going to go late first. I think Houston likes him as well. So,

So yeah, I mean, he's a guy who could probably play early and, you know, be probably a solid starter for you, I think. So, yeah, you know, I like Connerley. The anchor seems to be like the issue when you watch him play. On the film, yeah, at the Senior Bowl as well. I just say the Mike Green clip went viral. There was others as well. Yeah, exactly.

That play, he caught him a little bit off balance. I think, yes, the core strength is what I kept. coming back to you. I wrote that down more than a few times, both on tape and then in Mobile, the core strength just, you know, we need to get it a little bit hot. We need to address it. We need to develop it. And I'm sure that'll be the first thing that strength coaches work on him with once he gets to the pros. Part of that is hands too, I think, right? Just being late with his hands, guys getting into his chest and he doesn't have that core strength to get out of those compromising position. So if he could clean up his hands, I think, and keep guys, you know, utilize that length a little bit more,

big hands, long arms, and use that a little bit more. I think, you know, that can mitigate it to a degree too. It's an interesting, it's an interesting kind of contrast where his recovery ability laterally is very impressive, but his ability to recover out of those compromising positions, you do see that show up. And so it makes him an interesting player. Like, there are a lot of strengths and selling points, but you can definitely see some of the downside cases when it comes to that kind of stuff. Let's keep moving through these guys. Ariante Ursari, who you have at 37, overall, your offensive tackle five, Dane, even as a second round player. Brandon, I believe you had a sort of similar range with him.

He was your fifth offensive tackle. You have Kelvin Banks as a tackle, which we can talk about. But he's right behind Connerley for you, your fifth offensive tackle. Erster is a huge guy, Dane, like a huge, massive frame. Like, what do you see in terms of like floor ceiling combination with him if you're going to take a guy like that in the second round? Yeah, 6-6, 330 pounds, 33-5-inch arms. he's just, he's, he's very imposing when you look at him.

And like, if you try to rush him down the middle, I mean, forget about it. Like he will shut it down pretty quickly. But he can be stressed at times where you attack his edges. He gets upright. You know, he, you see false steps. You see him just kind of figuring things out still. And so there's, it's just going to take time with him. But I certainly understand why someone would want to bet on a guy that size who has his set of traits.

Like he was, he was, he was, he was a wrestler in high school. Like he, you know, has, and you can see a lot of those different muscles in the way they move and the way they work for him. He was also a track guy in high school. Like, he wasn't a, he was actually a defensive player in high school before they moved into offensive line. So another guy who's still kind of putting things together and you see him get better and better every single year. Like, I thought the tape against Abdul Carter was a really good, I think, you know, you see a few wins for, him you also saw a few wins for Abdul Carter. I think it was a good a good sample size, just a microcosm of kind of what you're getting with ursory. Yeah, for me, I mean ursary.

I'm a little lower like late second, early third for me. I just think he has a good amount of work to do with his hands. He takes the bait a lot for for rushers who set him up with stutters and hesitations and it breaks down pretty quickly from there. I don't know that he has very good or even good recovery skills. A little stiff, high-hipped, doesn't change directions very well. But, I mean, yeah, you run down the middle of them. It's not going to work.

And I really like him as a run blocker. I think he's extremely physical. He plays a good leverage in the run game. He's a really good finisher. So the competitive toughness is very good. So, yeah, I mean, I think, again, he's the reason why I have him a little bit later. I think the situation matters a whole lot with him

in terms of what you're going to be asking him to do. but if you're in a run-heavy sort of scheme or you're you know you play action RPO's that kind of thing yeah you could probably play for you year one and you know be a be a functional starter for you and he could still you know get better because I think if he cleans up his technique even a little bit in pass protection then you know he can mitigate some of those deficiencies that he has moving laterly and going against speed because I think that's going to be an issue for him a little bit you know on one-on-one situations what do you think what do you think about him moving positions. Like he only played left tackle at Minnesota, but like, do you think he could move inside

to guard or play right tackle? I mean, is there anything that says to you that he can't do those things? I definitely think he could play right tackle. I mean, to me, you know, nowadays, like, I mean, I have a list here of all these tackles who switch sides recently. I mean, it happens all the time more so than we think from guys who play one side in college and move to that side in the pros. So I think he can absolutely do that. guard, I think, would be a little bit more of a steep transition because I think hands, you know, are so important inside. You've got to be very precise with your hands. The margin for error is slimmer. And I don't like his hands particularly that much. So he's not one of those guys who I

really would project inside as much. But right tackle, I absolutely think he could do that. Who does he remind you of, Brandon, if he's stylistically? Yeah, my comparison for him is Bobby Massey, if you remember him with Arizona. Oh, do I remember him? Come on now. Chicago, too. But like, yeah, yeah, like Arizona, Bobby Massey, you know, maybe Chicago a little bit. But, but yeah, on paper, he's almost identical to Patrick Paul. He's just a little bit shorter arms, plays a little bit better leverage in that, especially in the run game, but still kind of stiff like that as well. So like a recent guy, maybe Patrick Paul, although I like him a little bit

better than Paul, and then more of a throwback like Bobby Massey, who, What was he? He was like a seven, eight-year starter at right tackle. Yeah. Yeah, I can see something like that. Huge frame, too. Really, really, really big guy. Right tackle. Same kind of deal. Last tackle we want to talk about here, who is a guard for Brandon, but Dane has him rated

as a tackle is Donovan Jackson from Ohio State. He's your 48th overall player day and your sixth offensive tackle. Why do you think tackle is the best solution for him? You see what happened after the Josh Simmons injury is enough for you to believe that he can be a tackle in the league? I just like this tackle team. better just guard tape playing simple. You know, like I think that's what it comes down to.

He deserves a lot of credit for what he did, moving out to left tackle once Simmons went down. And it was rough at first, you know, throw on that Penn State game against Abdul Carter. And, you know, there was some bumpy rides early. But he settled down and got better and better and better. And so, I mean, you just look at the size. I mean, six, three and a half, three 17, 34 and a half inch arms. He has the size to play tackle.

And I basically, I want to try him there. And then if I need a movement side, I know he can do it because he just what he primarily played at Ohio State before moving to tackle. But I mean, I think that it's not, I don't see it as he's definitely this or definitely that. Like I, because I liked his tackle tape better than his guard tape, I'm going to put him there. But there, he's a guard on several boards throughout the league. What do you think, Brandon? Where do you think he best fits? I still think guard, although I was overall a little underwhelmed just over the last two,

three years with him at guard, considering he was, I think, the number one overall recruit in the nation for offensive line coming to Ohio State. So I was expecting just a little bit more dominance from him. He was never really that at Ohio State, but he was pretty steady, pretty solid. He's big, he's physical, he's pretty strong. I could see a guy who's going to start for a long time at guard and get you out of a pinch at tackle. That's kind of how I see that, you know, his ability. I compared him, this is a little bit older of a guy too, but James Carpenter, he's almost a carbon copy.

I remember Carpenter really well at Alabama. Even the hair. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess it's the appearance, too, but also the way that they play. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. And I think Carpenter played some tackle at Bama and then he played guard in the NFL for a long time and he was just one of those guys you never really heard about. but next thing you know, he's played a decade.

I can see Donovan Jackson having that sort of career. So I have a really good comparison. I felt good about that. It makes sense. But like you think about even the way that they play and just what their careers might look like in like a B plus sort of outcome where it's like not the ceiling, not the floor,

just what he is. A James Carpenter-esque career for Donovan Jackson actually makes a ton of sense when you think about it. Brandon, where do he finish on your board? Yeah. So he's in terms of interior offensive line. He is six overall, but I have banks and Campbell inside. So if you take them out, you know, then he's four.

But yeah, on our big board, we have him. Let me see real quick. He's in the 50 range, 51. Okay. See, I thought I would be low man on him, even though I like him. I think we both like him. But if he went top 25, like, would that? surprised you if that happened on draft night based on the buzz of everything that you see you know in

the media no but for me that'd be pretty rich um but at the same time like you know the gym who drafts him putting him on your track record uh and he's still playing eight nine 10 years down the road you know you could do worse so i think there's probably a bit a higher ceiling out there you could get at 25 but yeah i mean i get betting on the floor so if reach of these positions i want to go a tiny bit deeper just with a couple names that you guys have an eye on. With the interior guys, I think we can frame it as day three players because you can find starters on day three at that spot. With tackles, it's probably a little bit harder.

So let's just say the third round and beyond, Dane, who are a couple tackle prospects that you find interesting that you think's team should be willing to bet on? Well, I really like Ozzie Tripio for Boston College, but I know Brandon likes him too, so I'm going to let Brandon talk about that. I'll go with Anthony Belton from NC State. who, like, in a draft where there's just not a lot of true left tackle bodies, Belton's one of the few that, okay, 6-6, 335, tested pretty well, almost 35-inch arms. Like, even though there's some sloppy moments on his film,

I'll be shocked if he doesn't go somewhere in the top 80 picks, just because, again, in a draft with not a lot of true left-tackle bodies, he actually has the size, he has movement skills, you know, really interesting background that he's still learning things and developing. So I think Anthony Belton is definitely a guy that, you know, if you're looking for a developmental option on day three, he makes sense. Besides that, you know, Charles Grant from William and Mary is another one of those day two guys. It's just going to take longer with him.

He moves really well. I mean, you watch him, it's FCS tape coming from William and Mary, but it just, he looks like a tight end out there with the way he moves. But again, I think it's just going to take longer with him. He's more of, like, I'd love to see him land and, like, San Francisco in the third round. And you develop him to be the guy behind Trent, whether that's two years from now or whenever. But it's just going to take a little bit more developing with Charles Grant. Yeah, I would also throw all Chase Lund from Yukon as well.

He's a guy I have a fourth round grade on. He's coming from a heavy outside zone type of scheme. The offensive line coach there is heavily influenced by Alex. Gibbs. I know you'd appreciate that, Robert. I sure do. So you watch Yukon run blocking the last couple of years. It's a lot of fun. I mean, it's heavy, wide outside zone. And Chase Lunt plays right tackle for them. He's a four-year starter. And he's a very refined zone run blocker. So if a team is majoring in that, I think he's kind of a guy you get into the pipeline. He needs to get a little bit stronger, maybe add a little bit of strength and size to his friend.

he's just the reason why he's a fourth round grade is because he's going to be 25 years old so how much physical development is necessarily there i'm not sure but that's kind of what he needs um so i you know he's probably a backup tackle but yeah he he could potentially start one day for you in that sort of system so he's another guy throughout there and i also like john williams kind of in the fourth round as well from cincinnati um kind of a more of a squatty kind of build in terms of height six three and change six four i think but very long arms and i really like his ability to protect the edge and pass protection um i just think he he maximizes his length really well not the most powerful guy but i think he could probably be a useful swing kind of backup guy for you as well we're in the zach tom era

of NFL tackles so these squatty guys who can pass protect i think there's an argument to be made for them let's get to the guards after will campbell who brandon has as a guard has an interior player both of you guys have Tyler Booker as your top rated guard. Dane, you have him as your 24th overall player. Brandon, you have him second among your guards that you have rated on Bleacher Report. Just one of those guys, Dan, you watch him and it just feels like the classic player, we're all going to overthink.

We're going to look at the testing, and he's just going to be there at 26 or whenever the raiders, the Ravens pick, and the Ravens are going to take him, and he's going to be there day one starting left guard, and we're going to be wondering a year from now, it's like, how do we let Tyler Booker fall all the way down into the 20s and let the Ravens pick? him. Like it almost feels like an inevitability after going to watch him. Where I understand, like, you watch him and yes, there are movement limitations, et cetera, he's just a good football player. And in this class, specifically, he just seems like one of the guys I would bet on.

Yeah. And that's why even with the movement skills at the combine, not being great, and with the testing, the positional stuff, he looked really good. And so that was kind of like he wasn't a combine loser necessarily. If you just look at the numbers, okay, you're not going to be impressed. But then you watch his positional workout in Indianapolis and you're like, okay, he looks pretty good there. So yeah, not a dynamic athlete. I can understand some teams that are going to plan on running a lot of outside zone.

It just won't be a perfect fit. And so I get it. But for teams that run more balanced or just true gap schemes, then, yeah, Tyler Booker, I think, will be really high on their list for them. He could be a pro bowler for them very easily. Because when you watch them on tape at Alabama, it's like, okay, he's not giving up. He's not getting pushed around. He's maintaining the depth of the pocket.

He's not getting beat on his edges, like his outside shoulders, very strong. So strength, power, going to mull guys when he gets his hands on him. And he had the quote of the combine when he said, it's just legal assault out there. I want to make guys not love football. And then everything, competitiveness, and then the leadership. He was, like they had that bad Vandy loss this year. After that loss, it was, it was Booker who kind of took the whole team and said,

all right, guys, let's get back on track here. Bad loss, eliminate that. Let's move on. Like, he is going to fit in perfectly in the locker room wherever he ends up. Because he's just, he's kind of been programmed for this since grade school. You know, every decision he's made since the third grade was to kind of put him on this track to be an NFL play. player. And so I think that, yeah, it's going to, exactly like you said, he's going to go a little bit later than he should.

And a team's going to get a really good player. And we're going to look back and say, huh, how'd that happen when it's just, we all saw it coming? Maintaining the sturdiness of the pocket is just so impressive. That, that to me is the selling point. And when I watch him, Brandon, like, I just can't stop imagining him at left guard for the Bengals, like with Orlando Brown and him on the left side. And I know it's so tempting for them to take a defensive player, like just based on the state of their defense. But them putting him at left guard and having that be, the left side of their offensive line. You talk about that gap scheme fit. That's one that's been really hard for me to ignore

after going and watching him play. I get excited talking about Tyler Booker. He's one of my three or four favorite guys in the class. I think he was probably the easiest evaluation for me of anybody this year. It was nice to see him take a step this year from last year, which he certainly did in terms of his body control. And then once he did that, this is a guy who is very clear. It's very clear what he is.

is. He's going to move people, stop people, punish people. I mean, that's what he does. Is he going to match up one-on-one against the spinners that well in a lot of space? The loose, you know, three techniques that are lined up at five technique, you know, like, you know, that's not his strength, but it's very clear what he's going to do. He's a massive guy, huge wingspan, huge hands, long arms. Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, he models his game after Trey Smith. I think that's maybe not, he's not as good of an athlete as Trey, but he's a very similar sort of presence. And, yeah, I compared him to Osir's Torrance. So I see a guy like that, you know, just, yeah, he's a very easy guy to bet on.

Watching the Georgia game, like, even against that sort of competition, like, there's a play in the run game where he just kind of snatches and seals Jalen Walker. He gets a slab on one play brand where he's looking for work. Like, he's just the type of guy that you add him to your offensive line room. and I just think the group becomes better immediately. Like he makes the players around him better as a multiplier in a way that's very, very easy for me to buy into, even with some of the limitations. Let's get to Kelvin Banks. Both of you guys have him as an interior player, even though he was the left tackle at Texas.

You have him as your 26th overall player, Dane, kind of right on the first second border. Watching Kelvin Banks, sometimes I think, Brandon, we do this where we throw guys that have deficiencies to tackle at guard just because we don't think they're, going to be good tackles. But when I watch Kelvin Banks play, he to me is like the perfect guy to project inside to guard because the length is where some of his limitations show up. He doesn't have short arms, but I do think that you see guys get into his body. And the way, how square he plays in the run game, it's just so easy for me to imagine him being a really, really, really, good guard over a solid tackle. So the fact that both of you guys have him as an interior player

after going back and watching him, I think makes all the sense in the world. I don't say it's just aesthetics, right? Yeah, right? He just kind of looks like a guard when he's playing out there. And so I think it's kind of split, like 50-50. Like some teams view him as a tackle, some view him as a guard. I, you know, we'll see where he ends up going and that'll obviously dictate where he lines up with position. But, you know, I think that he's another guy.

Like we talked about with Campbell, how he kind of showed up and was the took over as a left tackle and played well. It's kind of what he did in Austin. that offensive line, like Texas has not churned out these offensive linemen, you know, the last 10 years or so. Kelvin Banks is kind of like supposed to be the change of that. Come in, kind of get reimagined what this offensive line is going to be. And he's been a big part of that program's turnaround. Very patient, very skilled.

The biggest thing I worry about is just the balance, the balance issues. You know, throw on the Michigan tape. You throw on, like, there's times where he is just head over his skis, you know, on the ground too much. You see it on the Georgia tape. So now I do worry about, in space, at tackle, I worry about that balance. And then inside a guard, I worry a little bit. Okay, is he powerful enough to what you want at that position?

So there's some things about his game that I've always, like, in mock drafts, he was always kind of in a top 10. And I just never saw that type of player. He still might go top 10. Who knows? You know, if a team really likes him, you know, the Bears, the Niners, like he could still go pretty high because he's just a quality player. I just never saw the true like, okay, he's a dominant type of player in the way he plays.

And that's something that, you know, I was glad, you know, kind of Brandon saw it a similar way. But it's just interesting to see where he'll end up. What do you think about those power concerns inside of Garbernan? Are you worried? Would you be worried about that? Yeah, I think in terms of finishing guys in the run game on like base blocks, like solo blocks, I think, you know, when guys get into his chest, he doesn't deal with that very well in terms of maintaining his balance. He gets overextended, push, pulled too often, and it leads to him being on the ground, you know, one, two, three times every, almost every game you watch.

And that was just kind of a reoccurring theme. But at the same time, you know, it's very clear that, like, if you're going to run a similar sort of system that Texas did where it's heavy RPO, a lot of quick game, a lot of screens, you know, this is a guy who's going to, to, you know, he's very loose and fluid moving out in space. He's going to track targets, you know, create lanes at the second and third level for you. So he's, he's really like a, kind of like a tweener, you know, to me in terms of his projection. It's, it's, you could see kind of pluses or minuses on both ends of the spectrum, tackle, or guard. But yeah, I mean, I think if he's in the right situation, he could, he could be actually a really good player, you know, for you. It's just a streaky contact balance and sustained skills is ultimately why.

settled on him, you know, more of like a high second round grade. So, yeah, I mean, I think a team, it's easy to like him as well, though, in terms of everything else he brings. He's an easy mover in space. I mean, he absolutely dropped the guy early in that Georgia game. That was one of my, like, watching the offensive line over the last week. I was, that was one of those, oh, man, sort of plays. And it's interesting because, again, I think in the run game, and a double team specifically,

it's very impressive how square he stays as a run blocker. maintaining that balance seems to be an issue. And so you see the initial contact and it's like, oh, that looks really good. And then some of the balance issues come up. So it's kind of a mixed bag. Like the initial contact, you like what you see. And then as you get a little bit deeper into the play, that's where some of the issues creep up. Yeah, there's no doubt about it.

Like, because he's a player who is, like, I think Brandon said it. He's easy to like because of what you're saying, those movement skills, his ability to, like, how smart he is. like he knows to be in the right position, but there are definitely times where, you know, once he's engaged, finishing the play,

and just not dominating the guy in front of him. So, yeah, in like a lot of offensive line, man, you watch his highlight package and you're like, all right, sign me up. But watching him snap to snap, there are a little more inconsistencies to his game

than ideally you want to see. But, and that's why I kind of, I liked him in the mid-20s. But again, like if he went in the top 15, I wouldn't be, I know the Jets like him.

You know, who knows? he could go at seven. It's just, I think that there's a wide range of opinions around the NFL on Kelvin Banks. Let's keep moving through these guards here. Tate Rattledge from Georgia, Dane is your 53rd overall player, your third offensive guard. Brandon, he is one of your guys in this draft. You are a Tate Rattlidge fan.

What about Tate Routledge kind of bumped him ahead or, again, made him a favorite of yours in the process here? Yeah, he's 50 overall on our big board. And it's cool that Dane actually wound up liking him as much as he did because I think we're pretty much the highest people that I've seen on him. So that's always nice. But I mean, for me, watching Tate Rattledge, it's very clear. He has trump card traits in terms of grip strength and anchor. When he gets his hands on guys, the rep is over.

Yeah, the rep is over. I mean, you're not going to run down the middle of him. He's going to set a firm pocket. And if he can, there's, you know, some myths and butts here. If he can clean up his hands, which I think he definitely needs to because he's not the longest arm guy either, he's tall, but he's kind of sawed off. there's not a lot of margin for error there so i think he has to correct his hands to in terms of his timing and his placement to not get swiped and beat too quickly against speed but man when he gets

his hands on guys if he's able to be in an aggressive scheme where he's you know able to jump set guys a lot and uh you know that sort of thing i mean he can uproot guys in the run game as well and uh yeah it's just yeah he his ceiling isn't very high but i see a high floor player um another kind of throwback comparison for him. Clint Bowling, if you remember him with Cincinnati. Cincinnati makes a lot of sense for me for a guy like Tate Ratledge. And yeah, I just

think it's clear what he does well, even if it's also clear what he doesn't. But the play strength and grip strength anchor, I feel good about betting on that at card. Torque is the word that I would use. There's a lot of torque when you watch him play. And then he tested like a great athlete, which is a cherry on top. You know, so. Yeah. Yeah.

The torque he's able to create once he gets his hands on guys is just, and it could be in Passpro, it could be on the move. Like, it's, it's really impressive to watch. It's jarring. Like, there may like sneaks up on you. It was just like, holy shit on certain plays. It's, again. Especially for a guy that's as tall as he is. Like, I think, you know, he doesn't necessarily have to get, dig guys out and get underneath them.

Like, he's six, six and a half. Like, he is a big dude. And then, yeah, like you were saying, Brayden, he tested really well. It was under five seconds in the 40-yard dash, 32 vert. Like, he moves really well. And I think if he hadn't missed time this year, I think we'd be talking a lot more about Ratledge as being in that conversation to be, you know, one of the first guards drafted. It's just in my mock, I actually had him falling to the Eagles in the second round. It was just like, all right, like that's kind of like the perfect landing spot for him.

And a typical, like, kind of the Eagles wait and land a good Georgia player. But, like, yeah, Ratlidge is a easy player to like on film. Easy player. He calls him, like, he's a self-described dirtbag. Like, he encompasses very much what it means to be an offensive lineman. It's funny because when I look at those two guys on Georgia, to me, Fairchild screams dirtbag more than Tate Rowich does. Play style-style-wise, I actually like Fairchild a lot just because he seems like a real . . . . . . so I seem to prefer him. But the fact that Routhantwage thinks he's a dirtbag.

I appreciate that as well. I'll take it. Maybe it's the bullet. I don't know. That's it. I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he and he's got a pod, he's on podcast. Like he, he's a guy that, uh, in terms of leadership, in terms of what he means in a locker room. Like he really, uh, connects with everybody. And so like I think he'd be a, he'll be a great fit once he gets to the NFL. I think he's just, yeah, in this draft, you start to run out of reasons why he shouldn't be a top 60 pick somewhere.

Before we get to the rest of these guards, let's take one more quick break. All right. Let's get to the last guy that you guys both have is kind of a firm second round player. Dan, here's your 55th overall player, your fourth offensive guard. And that is Jonah Savinaeia from Arizona. Brandon, what are your thoughts about Savonaya in this group? Yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of went on a little bit of a ride with his evaluation going back to last year. I think pass protection was pretty shaky. He played right tackle at Arizona, you know, last year at least.

he's also played left, you know, he's played right guard. But he's clearly not a tackle on film, confirm that at the senior bowl. He just doesn't do well in space in terms of sinking his hands and feet and actually latching on guys when he has to deal with that amount of space. But again, you know, guys trying to run down the middle of him. He has a lot of power. Play strength is really good. And then when I saw him at the Combine, I mean, I just kind of perked up watching him, you know,

there in person because he looked great. just in terms of how he carries his weight, 6-4, close to 3.30. He just was really lean, and it was just impressive. And then he moved really well in the workout. So, you know, and then when he played guard at the senior bowl, it was much better than he was at tackle. So, you know, he's a guy I don't think who can play tackle in the NFL full-time, that is. But if you get him at guard, yeah, I mean, team captain, you know, checks a lot of boxes. That strength and size.

I think that plays, you know, him, Donovan Jackson, and Ratledge for me, they're all in the same bucket. It's pick your flavor, you know, which guy you would want. But, yeah, so he's in a very similar sort of mold as those guys, in my opinion. Yeah, I agree with a lot with Brandon said. I mean, he is a square blocker. You want him inside a guard. And that's really where he's most comfortable.

In high school, he was almost exclusively a guard. Goes to Arizona. He's a guard his first year. He's a freshman All-American. And then that sophomore year, is when they had a need a tackle and kind of forced him out there. This past year, split kind of 50-50, left tackle, right tackle. But it's pretty clear this.

He does his best work inside a guard. Use those big bear claws once he get his hands on guys and just kind of end the play. So the way he can create movement in the run game, he's very, and he's not a bad athlete by any means. He is very functional pulling range. He can get to the second level. And so the body type, the movements. the just tenacity that he plays with. Yeah, this is someone that you project to be a starter

and someone that I think will probably be good value when you get him in a second round. Like I think about like the Colts, like in the mid-second round. Like this is kind of like their type of player who maybe you can kick him out to tackle in a pinch, but you like to, you know, he can help solve some of those issues they might have on the interior. I think a lot of teams would be interested in him.

Does he remind you of anybody, Brandon, 7-A? I mean, I compared him to Matthew Bergeron. So that's kind of the similar sort of player. I'm not, you know, it's crazy about that comp, but that's the kind of mold, you know, primary college tackle, kick inside. You know, it's been a little rocky for Bergeron, but I think he settled down a little bit last year.

And, yeah, I mean, I could see Savendaya being a, you know, having a similar sort of career arc as that. And, like, I think that's a good point. He's a pretty good athlete. It's just he's not comfortable playing tackle. He's very rigid out there. He's not as strong out there even. Like, he doesn't transition to his anchor well.

his feet are choppy and he's just not yeah but when you kick him inside all of a sudden it's like oh yeah he can move pretty well and you know he's not like a slug or anything like that by any means like he can move when i asked him about playing tackle and like what his reaction was when the coaches asked him to move to tackle he was like uh like you could tell it was like all right my brain was programmed to say uh wherever my coaches want me i will play there whatever you know it's just you can tell yeah like he was coached up to say the right things that, you know, credit to him. But pretty clearly, I think he likes just, like you said, more comfortable inside a guard. I love that because very rarely do we see that. It's a lot of guys

being like, no, I could play tackle. No, I could stick a tackle. And the fact that he's like, no, I actually do what I'd rather play guard. I'm better at guard. It's actually pretty refreshing. Yeah. Reading between the lines. Yeah. Let's talk about some of the guys that you both have outside of the first two-ish round, somebody that's going to go in the third round or Beyond Day and that you're a fan of that you think can come in and be a pretty instant contributor for. somebody. I mean, I've talked about Dylan Fairchild before on this pod. I mean, you mentioned him earlier in this pod, but I just, I'm a fan. Let's just say that. I am a fan. He is one of,

and it's funny because Brandon and I have talked about probably 95% of these players. We had actually not talked about Dylan Fairchild, and I texted him like the day the Beast came out and we were talking about some of our guys. And I mentioned Delin Fairchild. And I mentioned my Wyatt Teller was kind of like the guy and that, you know, best case scenario, you can see a path where it turns into. And Brandon is like, that's exactly what I have in my report. You know, like he, that's how he sees him too. And just the way that, you know, you mentioned the dirtbag, the way he plays, you can, former wrestler in high school, he is not afraid to impose his will against whoever he's

going up against. Very gritty competitor. He doesn't get pushed around a lot in pass pro. Sometimes it does look a little sloppy. be you know like but if when every when the feet the hands the eyes the hips when it all stays in sync it looks pretty it looks like how exactly you you draw it up it's just you need to get them to a point where it's a little more consistent with everything staying in sync he was my favorite of the three georgia guys to watch like when i was trying to watch all of them together i kept getting

distracted by some of the stuff that he was doing because he plays with the real edge to that i very much enjoy when i went back and watched all three of those guys yeah yeah i yeah i think he probably has the highest ceiling of the guys. It's just, I think he's the furthest away from it. You know, Wyatt Teller went, you know, he went to Buffalo, they got traded and, you know, once developing under Bill Callahan. And yeah, I mean, if Fairchild can get to Philly or somebody, you know, somewhere like that. And then, yeah, I mean, you know, we could see a Wyatt Teller sort of outcome here. But yeah, I mean, he, to me, he's, the physical traits just ooze off the screen, you know, size, athletic ability, raw power. and then the demeanor, I mean, is what you want. It's just things fall apart for him pretty glaringly, the more you watch. And it's just tough to see him correcting that everywhere, right away at least. But he's one of those guys, I think back to like a Tyler Smith coming out where, gosh, he had some ugly losses on film.

But then when it clicked, it was like nobody, not many people were matching this either. So there's a boom bust element here. but yeah i mean if you're looking in the fourth round or something that's that's when you draft a guy like that how about you brand your favorite guy outside of the essentially third round and beyond that you think can come in and be a contributor for somebody yeah i'm going to talk about jalen rivers here even after you know the senior bowl started off had a great first day and then it got a little rocky in terms of past protection um but when you watch his film and i just reviewed it uh this year at Miami. He's a guy who played left tackle and left guard in the same game. They would rotate.

So he's left tackle for a few series, left guard the whole year. And I thought he was a pretty even player at both positions. This is another guy who 6-6, you know, 320, 3-30, really long arms, huge wingspan, big hands, very clear, like sort of, you know, when you watch him and you kind of profile him, you're expecting a guy like, you know, good in a phone booth, you know, guys working down the middle of him, you know, or going to get nowhere, he's going to uproot guys in the run game. I feel like you saw those things, but the reason why I like him so much is his left tackle tape, the ability to cast a wide net with his length in his hands to protect the corner and engulf guys, I thought was really impressive. Kind of Brandon Coleman-esque, he's not that

level of athlete, but just a similar sort of surprise when you watch him at left tackle. I wasn't expecting a guy to be that effective in past protection. So even though it was kind of an uneven performance in Mobile, I still am pretty bullish on him, especially in the fourth round, which is, you know, even tail end of the third. Like, I still think there's something there with him. So, yeah, I like Jalen Rivers a good amount. If you tell me that we're going to get the guy we saw in that first practice, with Tuesday at Senior Bowl, I mean, he goes top 60, top 75, because that was the, he looked like a future starter. It's just, you're right, Wednesday practice, Thursday practice,

just a little more up and down. And I think better reflected what he put on tape. So there's plenty of to like. But yeah, it's just can you iron out those inconsistencies that he seems to have on every tape? Speaking of the Senior Bowl, let's get to the centers in this year's group, headline by Gray's Abel, who had one heck of a Senior Bowl going back and watching some of that stuff today. Here's your 32nd overall player. and you have him as your number one center.

Obviously, it was a left tackle at North Dakota State, but does not have the arms to play tackle in the NFL, a little bit short. Framewise, Brandon, you look at the measurables. The first guy that came to mind for me and both watching the way he moves and the way he's built, it was kind of Mitch Morse, who was a college tackle, really tall, short arms.

That was the first guy I thought of when I was watching his senior bowl reps. And to me, what was impressive, and you guys were both down there watching him, sometimes when guys are moving from tackle inside, they struggle with how fast things happen. And watching him play inside, either in the one-on-one drills or even in the game, I was impressed at how he acclimated to that change in speed, which I thought was very impressive for somebody who had never really done it before.

Yeah, he was hands down the best player at the Senior Bowl pretty much from day one throughout. So, yeah, he, classic small school guy who was pretty dominant on film at North Dakota State. but again, like you'd love to see those guys at the senior bowl, how they match up against all those Division I, you know, helmets that are out there, those Power 5 schools. And he was the best player there. So like he passed that with flying colors. I mean, he checked all the boxes.

He tested really well at the combine. So it's just box checked after box checked for him. And then, you know, you hear about everything that he's going to bring in terms of, you know, how he works and how he treats people, all that. So like it's A plus. So there's, you know, he's a guy who's a riser for me, a big riser. I think Dane was kind of the earliest guy on him that high. I always liked his tape.

But as he checked those boxes, he just kept creeping up for me. So he's far and away the best center, you know, guy and, you know, prospect in this draft. I have him probably the number two guard, true guard, you know, not, well, I guess he isn't technically a true guard, but behind Tyler Booker, like. A guy where there's no conversation. about him playing. Yeah, there's no conversation. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, I feel really good about Gray's Abel's projection to the NFL. There's not a lot of guesswork here, I don't think, necessarily. It's funny. I was, I was the high man because at Halloween, he made my top 50, and I was like,

I'm a believer in this guy. And now I feel like I'm low man, because I have him like 31, 32 on my top 100. And it doesn't sound like he's getting past the top 25, you know, whether it's the Bengals, the Seahawks, the Vikings, the Texans, one of those teams are going to snatch up Gray's able. And I totally understand exactly what you were saying, Brandon, about just the ascent from the tape, what he did during the season,

and then the Senior Bowl, the Combine, it's just like just checking every box. And my one big concern with him was on the, him playing tackle is when, you know, a guy had a runway, he could really create movement, just put him in reverse. But at Guard,

And so I was worried about that guard when you're dealing with theoretically stronger players who are able to get that initial push. His ability to not have to worry about space so he could just sit down and stymie those guys right away, keep his hands inside, drop his anchor. It just looked like just very natural for him. And so for a guy that didn't play, he played some guard at North Dakota State for primarily it was left tackle, right tackle. Yeah, in the interviews were A plus. I mean, he is a, it's farming, football, and that's it. It's all he cares about. So, you know, he kind of aced the interview process.

He just, he's a, even though he comes from the FCS level, he's kind of looked at as a, you know, last year was Graham Barton coming from Duke, who was a left tackle, but he's going to move inside. You know, just everybody kind of liked him. Gray's Zables kind of that guy this year. Seattle makes all the sense in the world. Like him just playing left guard for the Seahawks in that scheme based on what they, they need and then, you know, we'll see what happens with old with Timmy, but just think adding a piece that can play multiple different positions to a group that needs an injection of talent, that one's hard to ignore as you look at the top 20.

Yeah, it makes sense. Does it get past, would the Bengals be tempted? Like, you know, what we're saying about how we feel like they have to go defense, but would they be tempted to go with Zabel there at 17 right ahead of Seattle? Yeah, I think there would be a lot of teams that are just going to be interested in Grays-Able because they feel like they know what they're getting. And with Cincinnati specifically, he could play guard this year. And then Karris, this is the final year of his deal.

So again, the multiple positions thing, you think about the two, three-year runway, what that could look like for somebody. But that's the range of the draft that I do think makes the most sense. Let's get to the other two centers that you guys kind of both have as like second, third round players. The second third round players, the second one is Jared Wilson Dane from Georgia. 57th overall for you, your second overall center tested really, really well. And just in the movement skills, I think you mentioned that he had the

highest miles per hour of any like 300 pound player at the combine this year not the most experienced player at center the guy that's still kind of learning the position but when you watch him play you can definitely talk yourself into the way he moves and just overall what he's bringing to the table even as somebody who hasn't played the position very long well and that's it coming in because cedric van pran was the guy at georgia for a lot of years and uh jerry wilson was a guard van pran gets drafted and like what like fifth round of the bills last year Wilson steps in at center. First year starter, his fourth year in the program,

and was an all-SCC player. He was outstanding. And it's a shame. He's another guy that missed the senior bowl because of a foot injury, so we didn't get a chance to see him there. But at the Combine, I mean, it was outstanding. The movement skills were fantastic. To me, he's a guy that is, part of it's because this is not a great center class.

But part of it is, I just think he's a really good player. But, I mean, I think he's going to. go end up going a lot of a lot higher. The Eagles just signed him to an extension at Nebraska. Camp Jurgens. Yeah, he reminds me a lot of, like, Jurgens was literally my 51st player that year.

The Eagles took him 51st, which was a lot earlier than I think a lot of people had him. I think it could be the similar thing with Jared Wilson, where he's going to go a little bit higher than people think because it's not a great center class. And he's just, you think about this, the, where he's going to be now, and then where he's going to be where he's headed with this athletic the smarts. His leadership is fantastic. He might not have like the ideal size for everybody and that's going to be maybe a hang up for for some teams because he's 6-3, 310 under 33-inch arms. But I just think

the package of skills, the athleticism, it's very unique. To me, he's he shouldn't get out of the second round. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see where he ultimately ends up. Yeah. And for me, I mean, I think with his size too, he has huge hands, which is kind of nice thing for center you know and i i think he i think he plays pretty strong too i mean that the testing was was great but i think his play strength is i would say it's solid to above average i mean he's he plays a great natural leverage he gets inside of guys consistently um he plays a really good body control it's just there's not a lot to go off of there necessarily in terms of being a one-year starter um you know he has some inexperienced tendencies uh you know late in the rep he can kind of

get pulled, you know, into overextension. He's not like the most overwhelming physical presence, but at center, I don't think that that's necessarily, you know, the most important thing either. I see, you know, a very similar sort of pro as like a J.C. Treader, you know, that sort of center. You know, a guy who's solid, you know, could do some really nice things. Moves well. So, yeah, I mean, I have him with, you know, third round grade. And yeah, I like him a lot. He, you know, when you're up close and personal with him. He trained under Duke Mannyweather and offensive line masterminds. And he looks like a huge running back.

Like he, that's just the way he's built. And he kind of moves that way in a way as well. Like he's kind of a unique looking dude. But yeah, he's a, he's a really intriguing player. I comp him to Rodney Hudson. He looks at all like Rodney Hudson. Yeah, body control, movement skills. I think there's a football IQ.

And I mean, Brandon, tell me if you just tell me if you just. disagree, but even though he was just a one-year starter at Georgia and doesn't have a ton of experience, I think he's going to start from day one. Like, I think he can, you can drop him into an NFL team into training camp and give him a full training camp. I think he'd be ready for week one and not embarrass himself. So even though I think we talk about guys with the lack of experience as always going to need time, I don't think that's the case with him.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. I mean, just looking at center depth charts, there's at least a half a dozen teams out there where I'd probably want to bet on Jared Wilson than who they have is their top guy in the depth chart. So, yeah. I think for you, Brandon, there's a smaller gap between Jared Wilson from Georgia and Seth McLaughlin from Ohio State than there is for Dan.

You gave them the same grade. Why don't you see a big step down from Wilson to McLaughlin and with this center group? Yeah, I just thought McLaughlin's tape this year was excellent. Good football player. Dude, really good football player. And the thing is, he's a very different player than he was to me even last.

year the year prior at Alabama. Like his body control and ability to sustain on guys, keep his feet driving and close that space late in the rep and finish guys. I thought it was a lot better than it was at Alabama. So for him to take that step, you know, to me, I just, I just thought it was very consistent film, you know, won the Remington Award with only 11 starts, you know, and I thought that was deserved. It's just you could poke more holes in his evaluation than Jared Wilson because he's older, he's coming off of torniquilees, even shorter arms. But I just thought his film was probably better than Wilson's this year.

It's just when you're projecting long term, when we have those guys stacked, I would pick Wilson first. But I mean, I like McLaughlin a really good amount. I think despite those dings on his profile, if he's healthy, I would love to bet on a guy like that. And something we didn't talk about necessarily with the other Ohio State offensive linemen is just, I mean, how diverse Chip Kelly's offense is, was, you know, and just that you need a smart experience center to kind of be at the helm of this. And he was exactly that. He transfer in, wasn't in Columbus for that long, but really quickly he was the leader, not just that the offensive line. but the entire offense and the entire team.

So intangible-wise, a lot to like. Coming off the Achilles is tough. Like I gave him kind of a mid-to-late third-round grade, and the Achilles injuries happen. So it's like, all right, maybe early to mid-fourth now. But it's still, this guy can start games in the NFL. I feel very confident saying that one of the big issues was at Alabama was the inaccuracy of the snaps.

And that's something that did pop up at Ohio State. It was better. It was improved. but just some of the erratic snaps or something that he needs to continue to clean up as he goes to the next level. Because that's something that just won't fly at the next level. If you have a couple in a game, they're going to look to replace you. So he needs to be more consistent in that area. But if he can, there's no reason why he can't carve out a pretty decent starting career in the NFL.

Favorite day three potential options as Center, Brandon, that we have not talked about. Maybe guys a little bit further down the board that you wanted to at least mention before we got out of here. Oh man, there's there's always a few of them in every single class. I mean, there's guys higher rate in than this guy. I have to talk about this guy. So, I mean, there's Drew Kendall, you know, Jackson Slater. Those are probably my two favorite, like midday three. But let's talk about Willie Lampkin a little bit here because this is a guy who just makes

me smile every time I talk about him. You know, he may go undrafted. You know, I've talked to a couple people, you know, in NFL circles that, you know, agree that like the tape is really good but he's such an outlier that are you going to put that on your 511 270 it's so funny to say and then you watch him and it's just rep after rep of him not getting pushed back holding ground even taking ground on guys consistently he is a true quote unquote like leverage monster this guy plays with great natural leverage his core strength is excellent his hands are big and strong.

His wingspan is much bigger than a guy at his size typically is. You know, decent athlete. He's, I compared him to like a little bit less athlete, less of an athlete is like Aaron Brewer. That's probably the pathway that he has to make it. He's a center only. He doesn't have much game experience at center. I mean, he has 61 college starts, but 14 at center. You know, high level wrestling.

I think he was 47 and O in high school. You could see that all day. But the thing that sold me too, his tape is excellent. But then the Senior Bowl, dude, he was one of the five best offensive alignment at the Senior Bowl, guys at bigger schools and every, he came from the ACC, but even other conferences and whatnot. He was holding up physically. So I don't know. He was a late call up too.

Like he wasn't supposed to be there. But he showed up and stood out, no doubt. I just, I would draft. him in the six or seventh round. I just, because in the undrafted pool, there's probably going to be a heated competition to get him. But yeah, I'd probably just get him in the seventh. And,

you know, worst case, maybe get like a Pat Ricard. But I don't know, man. The thing that hurt him was the testing. Like he... Yeah, it was just okay. The testing was, I mean, just 23 and a half inch. Well, you watch him. He's not a great athlete. Like, the athleticism doesn't jump

off, but the leverage is unbelievable. I mean, I just, can't remember watching somebody like him. I watched him because Brandon told me to as part of the process. He's like, I want you to go watch Willie Lampkin before we have this conversation. And I'm watching him. And I think it was, I was watching the NC State game. And then the clips of Brandon had of the Florida State game, it's like, all right.

Like there'd be no one in the NFL like him. He's my height. He were the same size. He was like 40 pounds heavier than I play when I wasn't playing football. It's like I, it's hard not to root for him based on everything he's bringing to the table. But he would truly be like a one of one player in the NFL. His agility was decent. Like his shuttle was like

average, I think. His 10 yards split was really good. He's quick. It's just, yeah, I mean, you know, he's not the most powerful guy, obviously, but yeah. It'll be fascinating because, you know, teams care so much about thresholds and, you know, like what's his comp?

Like, show me a guy similar to this who has done it in the NFL. He's a complete outlier. And so it doesn't mean you don't draft him, but it will take an outside the box thinker to pull the trigger on him. Dane, your guys outside of the first three rounds, day three guys at center that you're keeping an eye on in the process here. I'll say Joshua Gray from Oregon State,

six, five, 300 pounds, older player. He was a left tackle for four years at Oregon State. Then they moved him inside to guard just because NFL scouts told him, hey, you're not going to play tackle in the league. So he returned for a seventh year, moved to guard. But I think he's better at center. I think that's probably his long-term position in the NFL. And another guy that moves really well, I thought his combine was terrific,

just talking about the positional stuff, the way he moved. Natural Bender, there's a lot to like about how smart he is and how he sees things. He picks up things really quickly. So you add just how fluid he is as a mover. I think a zone blocking team is really going to like him. He's not going to be necessarily the most powerful guy. The anchor worries me a little bit. but for a team that really prioritizes movement,

I think he's someone that we could see, get on the field and find a role. All right. That's it. That is our last positional breakdown here on the athletic football show before the 2025 draft. We saved the best for last, right?

Like this conversation with the three of us, I was very much looking forward to it, did not disappoint. Again, a class that maybe there's some limited ceilings with some of these guys, but I think a lot of very good football players in the first couple rounds that can be pretty quick contributors to most of the teams drafting them.

So a more fun class to study that I'd anticipated and very fun to break it down with both of you guys. That is all we've got for today. We'll be back tomorrow with me, Dane, and Derek with our biggest questions from the 2025 draft. And then Thursday night, live 7.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Derek, Dane, Bruce Feldman, live on the Athletic Football Show YouTube channel,

breaking down every single pick of round one. We'll be back on. Friday night, 6.30 p.m. Eastern, me, Dane, Derek, a bunch of guests from the athletic newsroom talking about all of the picks from the second and third round. Very excited about that. Always have enjoyed the live draft shows that we've done. Cannot wait to bring another one to you guys. We were checking out the studio yesterday. Looks great. Very much looking forward to it. So please, if you're around, we'd love if you tuned in for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.