The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Titans talk, Cowboys and Vikings as contenders, and Browns and Packers regret with Gregg Rosenthal; Kalyn Kahler on concussion testing from the player's point of view

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

Titans fans, this is your moment! At least when it comes to The Athletic Football Show. NFL Network's Gregg Rosenthal joins Robert Mays to dive into the State of the Titans. They also play a round of Are You Buying This?, featuring the Cowboys and Vikings as contenders in the NFC, and the long-term outlook for the Steelers. Finally, they share some takes they'd like back before Gregg takes a victory lap on Geno Smith.Then, Kalyn Kahler joins Robert to discuss her recent story on what sideline concussion testing is like from the point of view of a player who is going through it.Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube2:48 State of the Titans25:07 Are you Buying This? Cowboys, Vikings, MVP candidates, and Steelers40:10 Take Two: Browns and Steelers48:27 QB Therapy: A Geno Smith victory lap53:36 Kalyn Kahler on her concussion testing story Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, October 13th. I'm Robert May. It's really fun show for you guys today. Kaelin Kaler from The Athletic is going to join us a little bit later. We're going to talk about a story she wrote for the Athletic earlier this week about the player's side of the concussion protocol. How easy it is for guys to skirt around it.

The onus on players to self-report. And what that means for where the protocol was and what it might look like moving. forward. Really enjoyed the conversation I had with Kaelin. Before we do that, though, it's time now to welcome from NFL Network, NFL Media, the Around the NFL podcast. How do you want to be introduced, Greg Rosenthal? Those all worked. You covered the bases, mostly the around the NFL podcast at this point. Podcasts are all that matter in our lives, right, Robert? They're all that matter. For me and you, that's absolutely true, which I think says more about the state of our lives than anything else. I'm sure if you listen to this show, you are

familiar with around the NFL. It has been a hallmark of the NFL podcasting world for a very, very long time. Greg and the guys over there do a fantastic job. I can't believe it's been this long before we had you on this show. I feel a little shitty about that. I was thinking about that this morning that it's shocking that you and I have never done a podcast together. We have done an interview together. You interviewed me for a great feature you did on my friend Anthony Jesselmic, which he did an amazing job with. But somehow we've never done it together. So I'm glad we are. I don't know. What a weird random tidbit about the connection points of our lives. For you guys that don't know, Anthony Jusselnick is a wonderful stand-up comedian whose work I've enjoyed for a very long time. He put out a special probably four or five years ago now, right? I think it was like 2018, 2019. And I was assigned to do, I asked to do a profile of him for The Ringer. And then I find out that I knew Greg and him did a podcast together. I did not know that him and Greg were very, very good friends who went to college together. I am a good source for any Jesselnik-related queries.

I'm actually wearing a branding t-shirt right now, the Jesselnick and Rosenthal Vandy Project, which is not intentional for this conversation, but I'm embarrassed about it now. I'm wearing my own merch. It's a very good name for a podcast. As someone who's only had shitty podcast names, I'm a little bit jealous of it.

So, all right, we're going to dig into a lot of stuff today. We're going to talk about what we're buying through the first five weeks of the season. Take two, we're going to revise previous thought that we've had about kind of the way the league has gone. We're going to let you take a little bit of a Gino victory lap in a skewed version of quarterback therapy, a good version of therapy, because I think that you're allowed that based on how this is gone so far. But I want to start with the state of the franchise conversation that we've been having

every week on this Thursday show. And I want to do it about the Tennessee Titans for a couple different reasons. I sent you a couple options and you said you wanted to talk about the Titans because I think as a whole, we do not talk about the Titans enough. and I want to ask you why that is. Titans fans would lead you to believe that I have some sort of personal bias against the Titans, which is not the case. I just don't know why I have a little bit of a blind spot for them,

and I don't know if you can help me on earth that. Well, yeah, they were extremely cranky Titans fans last year as no one was buying their one seat. But in general, I found them to be cranky and needy as fans. You were like, maybe we shouldn't bring that part of it up. No, I welcome the mentions. It's because they're in the AFC South. I think that's part of it. They're always like, analytically, they always look like they should be in the middle,

but they're better than that. So that's annoying, I think, to their fan base. I think that's Mike Rable. At some point, you've got to give them credit. I thought about Ravel the last couple weeks with Rule and, like, Rivera was asking for patience. And I was thinking, like, Mike Ravel didn't need any patience. His, his, he took, like, kind of a mid-level quarterback in an okay roster, and he's

cranking out 10 or 11 wins. And that's what good coaching can do. And that's why they should be annoyed that they don't get more attention. They're a consistently good team. I think that's exactly the analytical side of it. I was thinking about that this morning. It's like they're like the 17th best team in the league and they're three and two. It's the same thing this year.

They have a slightly below average offense and defense. And yet they're three and two. It's very tightensy. They're still winning. They're winning the division for all the excitement about the Jags over the first month and people picking the Colts to win the division before the season, which I will admit that I did, the Titans are again winning the AFC South. There's something about maybe the uniforms and just how uninspired they are.

There are a team called the Titans, and that is just something that feels like it's forgettable. There were so many Thursday night games that I tried to block out of my mind where it was a really bad Titans team in like 2014, 2015, playing against a really bad Jaguars teams in unwatchable uniform combinations. so maybe there's just something about me protecting my well-being by trying to ignore the Titans. I don't know what it is. Yeah, and this team is typical of them because you're like not sure what is really going on with this team, but they're always greater than the sum of their parts. Part of it could also be they've been two of like two of the least inspiring one seeds in

NFL history. They had the Kerry Collins one seed year. And then this one, my favorite Titans team, if we're just going deep dive on Titans, though, was the Vince Young, Pac-Man Jones rookie of the year. year for Pac-Man, one that won like eight straight games to end the year. That was a really fun Titans team. I loved me some Steve McNair teams. Those early 2000 Steve McNair teams, I love watching Steve McNair. So there have been some great Titans moments. And them being better than the sum of their parts is exactly right. They're currently 21st in DVOA. They're 18th on offense,

20th on defense, which seems exactly right based on what we think of this team. So let's start with the short term. Like, what are reasonable expectations for this titan? team this season in your mind. Double-digit wins in winning the division. At this point, that's reasonable. I don't think it's going to be easy, but I would say they're the favorite. It's not just because they're there right now. As many holes, and we can get into the holes that they have, like the things that they

have that are good, Derek Henry, Ryan Tannahill, their defensive line, they're coaching, and their ability to sort of beat the analytic expectations are really good. Like at this point, they're all consistent enough that you can rely on that. And that's more reliable things to me than anyone else has in the AFC South. I still think the Jags are better than that. Over the course of the season, I still think the Jags are better than them. I do. I just, I think that some of the things that Trevor Lawrence can do, the ceiling plays,

combined with just the level of young talent that the Jaguars have on defense. Over the course of the season, I think that they will be a better team. But I think that the Titans will stick around in a way I did not anticipate. One of my favorite bets coming into the year when we were doing our favorite prop bets on our preview show, I can't remember what the exact odds were Bellar. I think it was like plus 200 or even better than that for the Titans to go under six and a half wins. And I was like, there's a chance that happens, like where the bottom just falls out to no fault of their own. Like I think that they deserve credit for the pivot that they're trying to adopt here and this is a transition year. And if things kind of just went south, it wouldn't necessarily be an indictment of Mike Frable and John Robinson.

It's like, this is a move to the next version of who they're going to be. And then now they're three and two in winning the division. Right. The AJ Brown trade never made any sense. It was absolutely a money thing. They could have afforded him if they want it. It felt like a small market type of thing to do. They could have paid the money.

And they're worse for it. But they are really good. And Vrable has this Patriots DNA in him, I think. identifying what the team does well during the season and focusing on that and covering up the weaknesses. And I hear what you say on paper. I think the Jaguars are a little better. But at this point, like I feel like the Titans have the best quarterback in the division by a decent amount until proven otherwise. And I feel like Tanna Hill is kind of the secret sauce here. And anyone that's watched them over the last four years sees like a guy who's really matured and is really

consistent despite having like no past protection the last two years. He, he is playing really well despite having no past protection. But for the most part, he makes good decisions. He makes good throws. And he is the best quarterback at this point until Lawrence, you know, is more consistent. I want to kind of go to where, how this is happening. Why are they three and two? What has allowed them to kind of keep going here, even with all the holes that we're talking about on the offensive line in the secondary, some of the injuries, losing Harold Landry. How have they been able to sustain themselves. And Ryan Tan Hill is a very good place to start. I'm fascinated by what's going to happen with him, right? Like Ryan Tannell is the highest cap hit in the NFL this season. He's fifth among

quarterbacks next year. But he's playing pretty well. He is sustaining them with the way that he's playing with no left side of an offensive line and really not a ton of receiving options. Like you watched that game against Washington last week and there's just like five or six moments. You're like, Ryan Tannahill was a pretty good NFL quarterback, and I just don't know what to do with that. Right. I hated seeing that playoff game that he had last year, started with the interception, ended that way because I feel like he's been underrated. I root for him. I watched every one of his snaps as a rookie as part of this article. I was doing that year QB Index. I was starting it watching that class of 2012.

And to see, and he was pretty good as a rookie. He was not, you know, Andrew Luck or RG3 were, or even Russell Wilson that year. But he was pretty good considering how little quarterback he had played in college. But to see sort of the maturation that he has, like, no, I always am just so afraid he's going to get hurt because no one takes bigger hits while hanging in the pocket in completing passes. Zero fee last week. Zero.

Right. And he did a few last week, too. But to me, that's a consistent trait that he's just kept. At some point, it feels like it will have to run out, but it hasn't at all. to me, he is very much in that like QB 10 to 12 range. And he's about as steady as anyone in that group to me, whereas like week to week you kind of know what you're getting out of him. Right now, it feels like their passing game is kind of derived of running the ball when

they can. You know, their running game hasn't been that efficient because their offensive line isn't very good. And I think that Derek Henry looks better now. They did over the first couple weeks of the season. And then against Washington, it's like hitting a bunch of screens. Like, they're just having to piece this thing together because they just don't really have any receivers at this.

stage. This version of Robert Woods and like whatever Trail on Berks is, so it feels like they're kind of teething this thing together with Derek Henry and Ryan Tannahill playing okay, but so far, like that's been able to get them where they need to go. Right. Berks, I think, showed a little something, and now he's on IR. You know, that throw Tannahill made to Westbrook Aquina last week, which is, you know, down the field, which is kind of a typical Tannhill throw under pressure. He just makes enough of those. And they're using Henry as a receiver. A lot. Yes.

Henry looks great to me. I think he's really run well the last three weeks. He has more receiving yards in the last three weeks I checked than he had in some entire 16 game seasons in his career. And that's just because they don't have any other options. But he's running really well. He's back to leading the league in like carries. I was worried about him coming into the year. But to me he has plenty of juice.

The line, though, is terrible. Like both tackle spots are terrible. Dennis Daly is a backup. And then who is it, Petit, Fris? Air, who's a rookie. Petitreira at right guard and then Brewer at left guard. It's just like when you watch that left side, I try to hold up.

It is a disaster. So I like feel like proud of Tannahill for overcoming, but it feels like the best they can hope for is average the second they got rid of AJ Brown. Ryan Tannhill is averaging 11.6 yards per attempt on play action this year, which is the highest in the NFL. It's just hilarious. I wouldn't be surprised if you looked at his play action numbers for the last four years

and he's number one in the NFL in terms of yards per attempt. Absolutely. I mean, the efficiency they've gotten over the last couple seasons is absolutely incredible. And you saw it again. The one big chunk they had on like a downfield throw last week against Washington was just on a downhill play action, just simple like post deep cross. And he throws that thing beautiful. Like he looks really good when he's doing that stuff.

Here's where I think you're a little too low is I think they are good at figuring out things during the season. And they will be a better offense for the most part. I think by the end, the offensive line won't be close to league worse in terms of pass pro all year. I doubt. No, I think that they're going to be bad all season. I mean, this is the answer, right? Taylor-O-Wan's not walking through that door, and this is their starting left guard.

So that's definitely something to worry about. On defense, they lose Harold Landry before the season starts, and they're trying to figure it out at corner, but they're still just pretty solid because the guys they have that are really good on defense are really, really good. Like, you watch Autry and Simmons play every week. It's like, these two guys are enough to kind of keep you afloat. up front, even without Dupree for stretches, even without Landry. And then they still have enough guys on the back end, even without molding, even with

whatever's happening with Caleb Farley. I just think that they've done a really good job on that side of the ball of putting guys in positions to succeed over the last two years since Bowen took over. Yeah, I agree. Their defense has actually been a little bit of underachieving almost. They always get it done in the end, but their numbers are never good the last couple of years. This year, it feels like maybe they're overachieving. And some of the talent that's been there are.

having their best season. Jeffrey Simmons is always great, but people have this idea that just these guys in the middle of lines are like always the same. They're just always great. He seems like he's having as good a career as he's, I mean, a good a season as he's ever had. Agreed. Like he's sort of taking the next step even from Pro Bowl to All Pro, maybe. Autry never gets old. I don't, it's insane. What a long career he has. I do, I do this show with Boris Jones Jew and he was remembering like, Dineco, Adelaidei, I think was like an undrafted guy in the Raiders like 10 years ago and now he's still like on like making huge money and playing excellently and Tahr Tart who I noticed a little bit last year but is definitely playing

better this year I think was an undrafted guy three years ago they they find these guys and they get production out of them up front it's a good front seven but dupree should be back at some point and then hopefully when hooker comes back you the safety duo is one of the best in the league they play so incredibly well last year I like Christian Fulton I'm curious to see what going to go on with their other corner spots if and when Molden comes back. Because McCreary has played in the slot for them on more than half of his snaps so far, but Molden was their slot corner last year. So does McCreary bump outside?

Because what has happened with Caleb Farley so far is kind of a disaster. Yeah, they aren't, you know, they benched them last week after he gave up that long touchdown. Yeah, and I've kept an eye on him because he just so is such an exciting prospect. but whether the injury sort of sapped his confidence or explosiveness, even when he's been on the field, he struggled in the preseason and he was fourth or fifth of a depth chart going into the year. The only reason he was playing was really because of injury.

And they're playing Terrence Mitchell, I think, fresh off the waiver wire over him. So he right now looks like a bit of a lost cause for this season at least. And they're thin at safety too. I mean, they have Byrd, but the other spot is, is not great. On paper, like, this shouldn't be a great defense, and they're not. They're average. But David Long's pretty good in the middle, too. He made that game in their interception. I always like him. And that's why you look at it, and I think starting with Farley and kind of digging a little

bit deeper into it, their drafts have been such a mixed bag because at the top, it's been awful. Like, think about all of the first round picks they've gotten nothing out of over the last four or five years under the Robinson regime. Farley, Isaiah Wilson is a whole different conversation. Roshan Evans, you know, they cut Adori Jackson. They let Corey Davis. He was good. He was good. They declined Corey Davis's 50-year option.

They got a fourth-round comp pick for him when he left in free agency, but like, okay, it's a fourth-round compick for a guy you drafted in the first round. And then Conklin, same deal. They got a third-round competitive pick for Conklin. But they've really gotten a lot of guys in that second through fourth-fifth round that has helped kind of sustain them. And so they're not a bad drafting team, but they've also. missed on a lot of high profile spots.

And I do think what's happened along the offensive line over the last couple drafts that you're starting to notice. The fact that you miss on Wilson, you miss on Dylan Radun's, who just can't even get on the field for this team. And then now you have to start Petit Ferrer in the third round and you lose the wand. And that's how things start to get away from you pretty quickly. Right.

And they also, their secondary are all high picks. And some have hit. You know, Fulton is a hit for sure. We'll see about McCreary. Molden looked like he was on the path to being okay. But when you put that many first and second round picks, you have to have a plus secondary. And they don't right now. That's why they seem destined for the middle. I'm like looking at their schedule and the rest of the EFC South schedules.

It's kind of tricky outside the division. I mean, nine wins might win this division. I'm not sure if any of these teams, including the Jaguars, is winning enough out of division games. So it comes down to, you know, games like. the Titans have after their buy. Look at, not really we're talking to the Titans. We're talking Titans on a buy. How about that?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. This is the time to do it. This is the time to do it. So, all right, this year, we're thinking nine, ten wins maybe if things go well, they win a down AFC South. What happens next? What do they do next year?

Because this team has some real decisions to make. Ryan Tanna Hill, again, has the fifth highest cap it in the NFL next year, 36 million. Luan has no dead money left on his deal after this season. He's 32. I thought they might cut him this year. Yeah, he's missed at least 11 games two times in the last three years. Robert Woods has no dead money left on his contract. So who's playing quarterback for this team next year? How do they use some of those resources? I just have no idea what the next couple steps look like because I can understand them talking themselves into another year with Tanna Hill at 36 million if they think that's the best option, but is it time to pivot away from that because you've run into a ceiling?

These are the questions they have to ask themselves. If you love, love Malik Willis, and I think that was a smart pick to start having a developmental guy to look at, and you really felt confident in them? Sure, but I think Tanahill taking up $36 million on their cap is the least of their problems. To me, that's not that much. It sounds crazy now, but 36 for the 10th best quarterback and the least. league feels fair. I mean, the cap keeps going up. I just don't feel like that's their biggest problem. The problem, you're right, is that they don't, they've been spending on offensive

linemen picks and money, and they don't have it. I mean, Bud Dupree is making, I don't know what his cap charges last next year, but my guess is it's like two-thirds of Tannehill. That's a bigger problem. Yeah, they can save about half that. I think he's like a $20 million cap at next year, and they can save like half of that and pay half of it in dead money. So I assume he's gone as well. And that's, when I've opened their over the cap page and started to figure this stuff out, I just thought I would look at it, click cut for Ryan Tannahill and just move on and see what else was happening. But if you look at it, I'm with you. Like, they can save enough money other places and absolutely can talk themselves into Ryan Tannehill at 36 million being their best option of quarterback next year. Robert, he's one of the best like six or seven players on the roster irrespect of a position.

He's a pretty good player. So, in maybe Malik Willis. ends up impressing them so much that it ends up being his final year. And Tanna Hill doesn't get it done and he's a backup for half the year. Great. His contracts voided the next year. That's fine. They've gotten their monies worth out of him.

Yeah. I mean, obviously the ran tan hill trade and move is one of the best things the team did a quarterback over the last like five seasons. It saved them in terms of relevance. It was a stroke of kind of genius in how they managed to pull that off. But now I just, I'm left with this question of like, what happens now? Now that you've kind of gone all in on that AJ Brown, Derek Henry, Ryan Tannahill, Arthur Smith version of the offense, you didn't get there. You didn't get across the finish line. And now you're left to figure out what the next stage of it is. How do you do that? And I think there's probably some pessimism by my voice when I say that. But when I watch them play this year and I watch how they've been able to kind of ride this wave over the last couple of years, I actually have a decent amount of optimism about Mike Frable and John Robinson figure. this out because they've figured it out up to this point. They're always relevant. They're always

hanging around. Right. There are different ways to be successful. And Brable hasn't been that close to winning a Super Bowl, but they've had a winning record every single season. They've had 11 and 12 wins the last two seasons. I think their goal here and maybe they haven't done the best job is just to keep their jobs and keep getting those extensions for John Robinson and Brable. And the one thing they do is they do have an identity. I think they're losing that a little bit right now without Jonu Smith, without A.J. Brown. And that identity was kind of like, we're the best-looking team in the league coming off the bus. We're bigger and stronger, and we're going to push you around.

And that's sort of who we are as big, strong athletes. The Falcons are trying to do similar things with Arthur Smith. And so they need to just hit on more of those big, strong fast guys because they haven't as much. I hated that A.J. Brown treat. I just hated it. It made no sense. They're paying Robert Wood's $16 million guaranteed. It's like it made no sense. I have to think it's about the amount of time and snaps he had missed over the last couple of years. I have to think that's what it's about because there's no other explanation for it.

Well, I think it's cash. I think it was. That's another possible answer. You know, you look at some of these teams or Jeffrey Simmons deal is possibly coming, you know, all those considerations. Not even cap space, but cash. You look at some of these teams and they're not all small markets. but they are, you know, ownership groups that maybe have in expenses. When you look at the Giants, you look at the bears where they are in cash spending and you got to put that money in escrow and stuff. And maybe they, for some reason, weren't totally in love with AJ Brown as much as they should have been.

But that wasn't unforced there. They didn't need to make. You talk about Johnny Smith, and I think this is just so perfect for what the Titans are. They draft Johnny Smith in the third round. John Smith is a really interesting piece for them within that offense. He's a great yak guy. He's explosive. He gives them a decent amount.

He leaves her a huge contract in free agency to go to New England. They would gotten a fourth round compick for Johnny Smith when he left. That gets wiped out because they signed Bud Dupree because they couldn't figure out that other edge rush or spot. So that is what the Titans are. It's like it's not good. It's not bad. You hit on Johnny Smith. He was a nice player.

You're going to get this compick, but you need to plug a hole to go get one of those off the bus guys in Bud Dupree. and then you haven't gotten anything out of him. So it just all of those things leave them somewhere around like the 15th to 18th best team in the NFL. Yeah, you're right, because the woods trade, which made sense in a vacuum, it's similar to that. Like you were plugging a hole you didn't need to make and paying him too much money. And they are one of the few teams that have had legit cap issues. They did coming into this year. They had to get creative, like to get their rookies paid and everything.

And next year going into the year they have among, the highest cap total in the league. So you'd like to see more wins than that, but you also like, this is a franchise. I'm old enough to remember, like they moved to Tennessee for a reason. Like their ownership has always been a little up and down, I would say. And, you know, they got that stadium. And even now, like, I feel like they're a team that's kind of happy to be winning 10 games a year. You know what I mean?

Like, it could be a lot worse. and ownership-wise and everything. I feel like they're kind of maxing out where they could be. It's weirdly. It could be a lot worse and they're maxing out what they could be. The Tennessee Titans story. Right. It's like their ceiling is low to me,

but at least they make it enjoyable to be their fan. They're in the mix. I'm glad we just spent 25 minutes talking about the Titans and they're going to be 15 things from that conversation that Titans fans are going to be really upset about. So the next 48 hours of our life should be awesome. All right, we're going to get into a couple things that we are not buying from the first five weeks. Let's start with this.

Are you buying the Dallas Cowboys and Minnesota Vikings as real contenders in the NFC at 4 and 1? Cowboys, yes, Vikings, no. I think this weird thing has happened with the Cowboys that just because everyone started picking the Eagles right before the season, including me, they were my Super Bowl pick, which I'm feeling great about, the Eagles. like people kind of like thought the cowboys were going to be terrible when on paper they had a great defense and the idea is you know you worry is defense going to stay that great year after year it's better this year Robert wouldn't you say yes and I was one of those people I looked at it and like the turnover stuff is just never going to happen again like how many really good players do they have on that side of the ball outside of Michael Parsons I was one of those people that just thought even if they fell somewhere to the middle they were absolutely a team that could win seven eight games and miss the playoffs Right. I always thought they had a little bit of a cushion because of their schedule. Now, maybe the Giants aren't quite as easy at two games as you thought, although they already did win it with Cooper Rush. Man, they are absolutely a contender. The NFC feels pretty wide open to me, and you get Dak Prescott back. You're going to be a better team when he's back. And you've already shown you could be a mid-level offense. And the way how well coached they are on defense this year makes me feel like they're going to be in every. game. And they are as talented as anyone on defense. Lawrence is playing great. They're deep on the

defensive line. I think the secondary is underrated because there's a lot of cohesion. They've been together a while, but they're not old. And the way Quinn is mixing it up, he's kind of, he's showing things he's never shown before. I mean, they really have a different game plan, snap to snap series to series week to week. I think they're very tough to deal with. So you combine that with like a really good franchise quarterback and enough players on offense. Like to me, they are right there. I have the Eagles ahead of them still, but I would put them in a second tier of NFC contenders. I don't know if my opinion of a defensive play caller has changed as much over the last two years as my opinion of Dan Quinn has changed. When they hired him, in my mind, it was in the Gus Bradley bucket, where you got this guy who was one of those Seattle guys, was a head coach, it didn't end up working out.

His defenses when he was a head coach weren't very good. Go look at what those Atlanta defenses were during his time there. They were bad. And he gave up a lot of those defensive responsibilities to Rahim Morris and Jeff Obrick and whoever was there. And so the Cowboys hire him and it's like, okay. Like kind of shooting for the middle with Dan Quinn here. And I have been so spectacularly wrong based on how the last two seasons have gone and especially how they've played this year. He's done an incredible job mixing things up and just being just a different version of himself.

Like what they're doing right now is so far away from what he used to be. be as a defensive coordinator and all the credit in the world goes to him for kind of having that self-awareness conversation and being like what do I need to do to step outside of this and he's been open about that and he and I talked about it so I am very very impressed with how that has looked for Dallas and I think I'm in the same boat like the NFC is not very good their defense in that front is so terrifying when they're on why can't they be around until the end compared to all these other teams. Right. I wanted to see this game with DAC in it against the Eagles on Monday night. That's not going to happen. Or Sunday night, rather. That's not going to happen now. That's too bad. But like I did not

as someone is as high on the Eagles as anything. It's like the Cowboys feel too good to give five or six points to any team in the NFL. They just, they just feel too good. And I think they've done a good job coaching the offense to this year. I don't know if it's simplifying things or what. but for the most part, I think they've maxed out what they can do. The offensive line's gotten a little better each week. But yeah, you mentioned it with Quinn. The fact that they've taken some players that in other places, like a Malik Hooker, were just okay and they can plug them in.

That, to me, speaks of coaching. And then you have Parsons, who's just a generational guy to have Lawrence as a DE2. And then the attention that they take away, you know, Diggie Zua is getting it done in the middle. Like, they're very deep. Armstrong's having a great season. Right. They have a guy making a play every week, it feels like.

And I think that's the Parsons effect. I think he's so transformational. And Lawrence is still so good that it's just you start there and you can do a lot of things behind him. And I guess I'm still just like not that worried about Dak, even though he had a bad week one. And to be fair, had a pretty bad end of the season last year, too. That offense, even before he comes back, I'm more bullish on than I was three or four weeks ago just because I was so worried about. I guess it was before the season. When the time when Smith thing happened, I was like, man, this could be devastating.

Like, they're sliding a guy in that was going to be their left guard that played guard all of camp and is a rookie and he's going to play left tackle. And it has not been nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. Their offense is actually pretty good, especially on the ground. Sunday night will be a good test. Part of it has been scheduled, and they only had about, what, 15 points against the Rams. But ultimately, I think their offenses average at worst. And it average offense in this.

weird year with that sort of defense. You can't expect them maybe to be this good on defense all year, but I still expect them to be a top five defense. And so, yeah, like, who else? I mean, the Eagles are there, the Packers, maybe. Well, we just talked about the Vikings now. You're not buying them. So, I mean, why do you think the Vikings are a step down from a team like Dallas, which removes one more team from the conversation? Well, they just, they could get there, but they just feel like so many teams in the NFL are I put in the same bucket this year. And some happen to be four and one and some happen to be one and four or two and three but like the vikings are still in that bucket for me even though they're four and one they could easily you can't tell me they're

that much better than the las Vegas raiders that's exactly what i was going to say like what is the difference between the vikings and the raiders at this point you know if it's sometimes teams do have consistency with this during a season they have had a good knack of when they need a drive they make a drive when they need to stop they make a stop and that's how you you go three and oh and three close games that they've had this year. And so that's to their credit. And sometimes I can carry through. You get a little mojo, for lack of a better word, in the coaster of a season that they're confident they can win close games. But the defense doesn't look special to me. And I think Cousins is playing okay. But he's even spoken about he feels like he's not really where he was at the end of last

year in the old offense. And I tend to agree with that. Vikings are 20th overall in Team BVOA right now. The Raiders are 23rd. And our Tennessee person. the eye that it's a bit of the eye test too you're just watching them and they go dead for a long time pretty much every week uh on offense and the and the the pass rush hasn't totally been there uh which is a little surprising with hunter and zad de zadis smith but it hasn't been there yet yeah i mean the fact that it couldn't take over that game against the bears last week with those two tackles and the bears passing game actually showed more signs of life than it had pretty much any other time this year i think that's all you need to know about that right now right fields was back there i was

thinking that was a big difference last week. Yeah, you're bears. I'm really having a hard time with that Thursday night game not to take us off track here. You're having a hard time. I have to watch it and then talk about it. So nobody's having a harder time than me. I mean, we'll all have to do that at some point, but I don't know who to pick because I really. Oh, that's what you're talking about. I thought you meant you were having a hard time with the experience of what the game is going to be. That too. It'll be better than last Thursday night. I don't think it could be worse than the Broncos game. It's just like, man, I guess I have to pick the bears to win a football game here. I think that's where I'm at.

That's never a good answer. All right. Next one here. Who are you buying as the MVP of the NFL after five weeks? We haven't had this conversation on the show at all. Okay. So I figure we might as well just pull the pin on this grenade and see where we're at. Okay.

I have it as my homes right now. I also added my homes before the season. So I'm absolutely patting myself on the back and like I'm going to stick there. I just think he's playing at such a high level. I think people will like, the voters will like the narrative of it all. And I just feel really confident he's going to keep it up and be great throughout the year. So even if it's very close right now, who's actually been the MVP through five weeks between Mahomes and Hertz and Josh Allen and Lamar, like to me, Mahomes is the guy I backed before and I still would back because he's Patrick freaking Mahomes. I'd be back and forth with Mahomes and Allen just based on what they've done so far,

what those offenses have looked like. I agree with that. Yeah. I do think it's Mahomes. If you ask me right now, like who is the MVP, you have to hand out the award today? I would say Patrick Mahomes, based on what he has been for that offense, what they've done after losing Tyree Kill, the fact that they've been the best passing offense in football after losing a guy who, you talk about transformational with Michael Parsons.

We did the show yesterday with Matt Bowen, talked about what these offenses. have looked like with and without the receivers that were traded or traded away. And it's fascinating to see how differently teams are playing the chiefs without Tyreek Hill and how differently teams are playing the dolphins with Tyreek Hill. And it is transformational. And the fact that the chiefs are still just the best passing game in the league with all of those things to take into account is wild. And a huge part of that is the fact that Patchma Holmes is still probably the best player in the NFL.

Right. I've never totally moved off of that as my baseline. Now, Josh Allen, at his very best, is there. This season's been typical. He's had some down halves, I guess you could say. He usually makes up for it even within the same game. And his highest highs are maybe even higher somehow than Mahomes. But that game Monday night against-

That's my stance as well. Yeah. Like that game Monday night, though, it took some special plays from Mahomes, ultimately, mentally and just with his arm angles and improvising to win that game and he did it. I still think at his peak, Alan is a tiny bit scarier. Maybe it's just kind of how visceral those plays look and just how crazy, like the physical specimen aspect of it is. I was watching the Steelers game back again today. And it was a simple play, not even like the missile shots down the field to Gabe Davis.

But the touchdown he threw to Stefan Diggs was an RPO. And how fast he flips his hips and then just throws that 20-yarder on a fucking line to digs for a touchdown. I'm watching that. I'm like, what are you supposed to do about that? And so those moments, just I get intoxicated by them. So the flashes to me are like as good as anybody with Alan. But I think play and play out, game in, game out over 17 games, I tend to agree that it's still Mahomes until somebody steals it away from him. Right.

I think it'll be Mahomes, but I do disagree with you on one. If I had to vote, if that was the conversation today, I think I would probably give it to Alan. Because it's all the things that you just said. Plus, he's essentially peak Cam Newton running the ball efficiency-wise when he needs to. And it's just that's next level. I don't know how long that can last. But, like, you know, you said, here's a take you. You have to walk back.

I've got a different one in a couple weeks. But I remember for the longest time, I was just like, in a best case scenario, you know, Josh Allen's like a poor man's Cam Newton, like early in his career. And he, here's the thing, though, it wasn't that far off because he, he really is a rich man's Cam Newton. Everyone that came up loving Cam Newton, like, this is sort of what 2015 was like, and then the next level and like the next iteration of that is Josh Allen. Just there are so many moments.

Again, I'll go back to that throw against the Steelers. It looks so simple, but just how twitchy and explosive he is at that position is just so rare to watch. And it is a treat. I truly enjoy it. All right. Speaking of the Steelers in that game. Are you buying the fact that this one and four start and what they look like last week against Buffalo that they can kind of pull out of this tailspin, not even this year, but over the next couple of years, are you buying the long-term viability of this Steelers build?

Yes, but it's more just a strange, like, faith. You know, it's like a Steelers religion rather than anything tangible that you can point to, but beyond the presence of Mike Tomlin and. that front office, you know, having a good succession plan and a lot of talent on the outside. I'm pretty high on picket based on what I've seen. And just because it's Mike Tomlin, and because of what I said about that bucket of one and four teams and four and one teams, they should be like a two and three team. Everything would feel better if they had won one of those close games that they blew at the end. To me, they're closer to the middle right now than Steelers fans probably think.

So I've got faith. I've got something. Yeah, I also think that we think about what we just did with talking about Micah Parsons and what the Niners defense looks like with Nick Bosa. And I know they still have some real players on that defense, but like T.J. Watt not playing is a huge, huge deal. Like, we're talking about one of the four or five most valuable defensive players in the entire league.

And it does change the complexion of what that defense looks like. So I just don't really know what to make of them. Like, you watch the receipt, like that game against Buffalo, those receivers make like three or four catches a game that are some of the most ridiculous plays you'll see all year. And I think with a little bit more time, and I do think a different brain trust on the offensive side of the ball, that I think feels necessary. Like if we're going into this offseason and think of what needs to change for us to pull out of this, I just don't think the people in charge of running that offense can be the same people that they are right now. Yeah, and I would not expect it.

At this point, it feels like Matt Canada will have to do something magical over the next 12 weeks to be Kenny Pickett's next coach. That's always a risk. But when you have a quarterback and you have some skill position players, Najee Harris has definitely been a disappointment this year. Despite, you know, I know the offensive line is bad, but he just doesn't look that explosive either. I think he might be hurt. I'm just convinced that he's just not sure. But that's been a lot of his career. It feels like is playing through injuries.

they do have more holes than you would like. There's so many things to plug in. The offensive line has been bad for years. The secondary has been mediocre to bad for a while. And for the first time in a while, the defensive front seven, I know Watts gone, but feels a little thinner than it's been in a while. So that's a lot to fill in one off season. Yeah, I tend to agree with you.

Just that sense of faith about them being able to pull out of it in Tomlin in the front office and what they've done. But that was a low moment on Sunday that we're not typically used to seeing from that franchise. And I think it's caused me to step back and reconsider a couple of things. All right. Speaking of reconsidering, let's get to take two here. A take that you would like to rethink, walk back, however you want to frame it. Lay it on me. What do you have? Yeah. I'm going to go with one that I had before the season. And it's weird because the Browns are only two and three right now. So it feels like I'm not picking out of myself.

But I thought they might be a top five pick. I put that out there on on my, on our podcast, around the NFL podcast. And to me, they've looked closer to like a four-in-one team. I don't think anyone would have thought this offense would have been this good. But I guess the take I'm walking back is really not having enough faith in Kevin Stafansky because man and Nick Chubb, like the combination of those two dudes together, their offensive line looks like it did the last two years. Even though the personnel is a little different on paper, it doesn't look as good.

they present so many schematic problems in how to stop them. Jacoby Brissette is like the best Jacoby Brissette right now. That's the two Stefanski's credit. It's a really, really good offense. I thought their defense might fall off a little bit, and it certainly has. And so they're only two and three. But I feel like they have to feel pretty good about this season right now if they can have a winning record for when Deshaun Watson comes back. It's so funny.

I was sitting there today looking at just fantasy rankings for week six. And I was looking at it. And I was like, I'm so pissed at myself for not believing in Amari Cooper. Him too, right. The lot of targets that he would garner and what he would be with that offense, there's no one else to throw the ball to. And my thinking was just, God, they could just be really bad on that side of the ball. And I think a lot of people thought that coming in.

I thought they could be a bottom five offense. So that's really what I'm, you know, regretting more than anything, because they've, they've been incredible. They've been a top five offense, which is crazy. I mean, like, so we're looking at it. Top, yeah, top five. offensive DVOA through the first five weeks of the season. 30th on defense. That's where I was wrong. I thought their defense, especially against the past, would be better than it is. I knew they'd have

trouble stopping the run just because the way they've built this thing. I just thought with the amount of resources they pumped into both the defensive front and pass rusher and on the secondary, they'd be able to slow some people down there and they just haven't been able to do that. So I was wrong about that, but I also did not think they'd be very good on offense. I thought they'd be below average at best, and that's not what happened at all. I mean, I put a lot on Baker last year, so it was almost like my takes were inconsistent because I should have, I should have given that handsome Kevin Stefanski a little more credit. Because what he did in 2020, right, is the year with Baker and that offensively was like they had a Super Bowl ready offense. They could have won the Super Bowl that year if they had like a pretty good defense.

And they didn't. And they still don't. But I think Stifansky and the way they coach up. that offensive line and the way that he creates game plans is awesome. And I like seeing it. As someone who's always liked Jacobi Bressat, I know he's had some killer interceptions, but I do appreciate just like him being a good replacement level quarterback for them.

And they have to feel good about their offense and about their head coach. As much as I'm rooting against them because they made the Deshaun Watson move. And I think that's partly why I had them as a top five, bottom five team. Maybe I just was, that was coming from the heart. because I was just rooting against them for what they did getting Watson. They are a really fun offense to watch. I have to do that. Yeah, I totally agree.

And I had a lot of those same thoughts. All right, mine is, I wish I just hadn't penciled in the Packers in the way that I did. When I was looking in the NFC, I wish I had the gall and the courage to make the choice you made about the Eagles. Because when I was thinking about my Super Bowl pick, I loved the Eagles in the NFC. I was just looking at their roster. I was like, they're so good. Top to bottom, they're so good. And that offensive coaching staff last year just gave me so much faith about their ability

to pivot when necessary and be flexible and even going there during training camp and talking to some guys there about what went into that and just their general mindset about that side of the ball. I was like, this is very far removed from what I thought after Nick Siriani's first press conference. I'm going to be honest with you. But then I was looking at it. I'm like, man, do I really trust them? to win a big time playoff game with Jalen Hertz and quarterback.

So I picked them, I think, to win that, make the NFC championship game and couldn't push them any further than that. And I picked the Packers because I was like, you know what? I know what Aaron Rogers is. I know what that offense has been with him and Matt LaFlor. Even without Devante Adams, they'll figure it out. And then on defense, look at all the talent that they have on defense. And I wish I hadn't just been so ready to think about it that way and just so quick to be like,

yeah, you know what, they'll figure it out because they have not figured it out. removing Devante Adams from that equation and what that offense looks like on top of the uncertainty with the way they've handled the offensive line. You know, moving Jenkins to tackle and him not looking as good there and kind of figuring out what those pieces should be and how they fit together. And then just how little trust Rogers has in the receiving options that they have there. It's bad. Like it does not look very good right now.

And even if it's going to get better, and I think it will, how much better can it get? And does that make them a real contender in the NFC if their defense, is going to be this middling. Like, they're not that disappointing. They're like a middle of the road defense, but I thought they could be the best defense in football based on the talent that they had on that side. And I think maybe my biggest lesson from all of this,

talk about what you just said with the Browns, what the Packers have been, how the Cowboys are even better than I thought they would be on defense. Don't hold your defensive opinions and predictions too firmly. Like, be a little bit looser about who you think will and will not be good on that side of the ball because it is always harder to pin down than you even think it is. And that is definitely one of the biggest lessons I've learned over the first month and a half here. Yeah, and for the Packers, you know, you can maybe say it's a little organizational

because I think their defense has been overrated going into most of the last three or four years because it's always looked a little better on paper than it's been in reality. and they've had different coordinators now it's Barry and I think they'll get better. They're not top 20 DVOA right now on defense. I'm not as concerned as you. I would still put them in my NFC, you know, contender top-ish tier. I guess the NFC is weird. I still would have the Eagles a cut above just about everyone, but it's not like I would

be surprised if they don't make the Super Bowl. And then I would have the Packers right there behind them with the Cowboys. And I would throw the 49ers in there. And that would kind of be my next group. the reason is the offense isn't that bad yet. And the fact that it's only been five weeks, Robert, and the offense isn't that bad, just makes me think it's going to get better. It's a really good running game. You still have Aaron Rogers. For the most part, I think Dobbs looks promising. I think their passing game has gotten a little better each week. Like,

Lazard is being Lazard. Cobb actually has moved well. I'm not like excited about the receiving group, but I just think they're a pretty good offense. They're going to be a top 10 offense. The question is the defense, whether it gets it together. On paper, they should be better than they are. But I guess I'm not that concerned that they're three and two and kind of muffling along here. I guess, let me frame it this way. I wouldn't say I'm overly concerned about where they get to by the end of the season. I wish I had been more open to some of the concerns they had about the roster and the outlook on defense coming into the year.

I wish I hadn't just been so, yeah, you know what? I'll just put the Packers in there because I don't really have a better answer than that. I should have interrogated some of the questions and the weaknesses more than I did coming into the year. Even if I think by the end of the season, they'll still probably be very relevant in the NFC playoff picture. Right. And the good thing is they're not in the conference with Josh Allen and Mahomes. Yes. And I really thought going into the year, I still put those two teams to the side of everyone.

And I'm feeling good about that because of those two guys and because of their coaching staff. It's like quarterbacks that good and coaching staff that good together. they're almost to the side, but they're in one conference, and that makes it feel to me, like, as much as I like the Eagles, that the NFC is still pretty wide open. All right. We're going to do QB therapy now. The last couple that we've done have been, you know, a real therapy session.

People needed to talk through some of the concerns that they've had and how they were feeling about how bad their quarterbacks have been. We're going to do this a little bit differently. I want you to talk to me about how watching Gino Smith this year has made you feel in a good way. Layout for the people what your relationship is to Gino as an NFL quarterback. Well, I should see a therapist about Gino because I'm just going to become so obnoxious. I'm going to get too high about what has been happening with Gino Smith and even more annoying as a human being than I already am because of how well he's playing. I've been believing in Gino a long time.

And on some level, like, it was a bit of a bit. But on another level, I truly did write an article after his 2014 season, after the last four games, where I wrote a Making the Leap article, Gino Smith. And I really did believe those last four games of that year. And really throughout that course of that season, that he showed the type of quarterbacking skills as a young player in New York that translate to being an above average starter. He processes. He's accurate. he makes good decisions and he throws a nice ball. And I think if you have that as a young player that you could see him going to

his second, his third read, and he was doing that with the Jets. I mean, that was, Rex Ryan was like killing him after the fact he was the best quarterback they ever had in New York. I guess they had Fitzpatrick. He was pretty good too. Sorry, I'm going on too much of a rant. So I did not expect him to play at this level. I mean, he's playing arguably at an all-pro level right now.

also not totally shocked that he's come out and looked like a baller. And so that's my therapy. It's just like, you know, I need to calm down. I'm already just have like a little air of unlikeability to me. And this is just like I've been taking a victory lap for like a month and a half right now, Robert. It's so justified though. Like, I can't even imagine what it would be like to trot this out eight years ago and say like, you know, this guy seems like he's got something. And keep it going ever since. Yes. Pretty almost weekly. Just like, how come they're not giving Gino a charge? chance, like give him a chance, give him a chance, and then nine years later for it to come through. I just can't even imagine, like, how vindicating that is with this guy's toiling on these bad teams.

It's a backup quarterback. And then he finally gets his shot. And I was somebody that watching him play last year and coming into this season. And everyone talking about how terrible the Seahawks were going to be. I was like, I don't see it. Like, I think Gino is a capable NFL quarterback. I think they will be a competent team. I do not think they'll be one of like two or three worst teams in the league.

I didn't expect their defense to be as bad. But I thought that he would be fine. Even as somebody who was mildly optimistic about Gino Smith, there is no way in hell I could have possibly imagined anything like this. No, it's five weeks into the season. I'll just give you some stats. He's number one in PFF's grades. He's number one in completion percentage over expected by like 5%.

No one is even remotely close. Those two Tyler Locket throws are probably enough to send him to the top of chart from last week. He was already, and part of the reason is his completion percentage on plus 20 throws is outrageous. He actually isn't that aggressive. If there's been a criticism of Gino in the past, it's probably that he plays it a little too safe. He holds the ball a little too long. And even this year, he hasn't always been incredibly aggressive in terms of throwing down the field. But when he has thrown it down the field, he's been throwing dimes and he's made great decisions. He's, I think, second in the league in big time throws, according to PFF. It's the play. It's the play.

Playmaking. He's second in DVOA. It's the playmaking, though, that even Stephen Ruiz and I, who is on this corner too for a long time. It's a big year for you guys. Yeah. We didn't see this part coming because he really hasn't shown that level playmaking in the past where he's really confident moving around in the pocket and buying time. He had a throw last week. I'm sure you saw it sprinting to his left down the field. I think that one was to lock it too. I did not know he had that in his bag. I did not know he had like sprinting. sprinting to his left away from pressure, throwing it down the field 30 yards on a dime. But he does. He does it. It's beautiful. I'm just really happy for you, buddy. Thank you.

I really am. You deserve this. You've hold on to this for so long that you guys deserved this moment. So good for you. It's so good, though, that every week I watch and it like keeps escalating that I'm just like, I kind of want the season to end right now. Like, they can't get any better. Like, it's almost too good.

Like, I can't believe this is happening, but I'm enjoying it. I'm happy for you. And I'm happy for us for you getting to join us today. I really, really appreciate the time. Greg Rosenthal, hopefully we can do this again before I've had a podcast for three, five, ten years. Yes, we'd love to. I got to get you on around the NFL too, Robert. It's been too long.

You guys, you guys do great work. Same with you guys. And I really appreciate the time. Except for Nate. Yeah, of course. Other than Nate, we all do fine. Thanks, bud. All right.

It's time now to welcome Kailen Kailer from the athletics. she wrote a very interesting story on Wednesday about essentially the players take on the concussion conversation that we're having. And I'm really interested in this. It started with Andrew Whitworth right after that game talking about how he had managed to skirt some concussion testing. And I do think that the player's side of this is a really valuable way to understand how that process actually works. And, Caitlin, you talked to, was it eight players about their experience with concussion testing in the NFL and just what they remember from it? how to get around it, all that stuff?

Yeah, it was one current player who was the lead of my story. I kept his identity anonymous because his team did not authorize him to speak to me. It was just a player that I knew previously and I called him because I noticed, oh, my gosh, he was just in the concussion protocol and then he actually cleared. But he got removed from a game. This was three days after what happened to us. It was a hot topic, very fresh. And sort of the same thing happened to him where an official notice.

noticed, he stayed down on one knee. He kind of got smushed. He described it like the two offensive tackles smushed him in the helmet. And he's like, felt like I got punched in the jaw, like if my face really hurt. So he's describing, you know, what happened to him and an official pulled him off the field because they thought it looked questionable. But the interesting thing in his situation was he's had two previous concussions. He knew what it feels like when he has a concussion. And he, in his previous ones in the NFL, both were in the NFL. He had self-reported both times. So if he he didn't care about his health and his brain health and how he's going to function in the future, he said he could have easily gone on playing through those games because nobody noticed in his other

two actual concussions. Whereas this one, someone did notice pull him from the field. He knows he's okay. He gets through the sideline test where they ask you just some simple basic questions. Where are you? What time was this game? Who did you play last week? Things like that. He gets through it and they consult the video. And I do think that's the interesting part of the protocol is the doctors do look at the video replay to make sure, you know, they're seeing what happened. They can see it in slow motion. They can review it.

So they reviewed his collision in particular. And they realized, okay, he actually wasn't hit head to head what we're looking for here. It wasn't that forceful hit. So they allowed him to go back into the game. So his perspective was really interesting. And then the other guys I talked to were all former players, but like recently retired ones. You mentioned Whitworth. So Whitworth obviously played last season.

And what he said on the post game of the Bengals Dolphins game where Tua leaves in the ambulance, that's what kind of prompted me to look into the story because he mentioned, oh, yeah, there was a game. I played Thursday Night Football against the Eagles. It was in 2012. So we're talking, you know, almost 10 years ago. And this was before they had the independent neurologist on the sideline. So the protocol was a little bit different when this happened to Whitworth.

But he had the same thing of Tua. he had the gross motor instability where he's falling right and left when he gets off of the pile after getting hit in the head and he gets taken from the game and he was able to actually pass the test. He answered the questions. He goes back into the game and it wasn't until a teammate of his noticed he's not like as sharp as he usually is. I think something's going on here that he was actually removed and he was diagnosed with a concussion. And he said, again, he was another one who said, I would have kept playing. And he felt it. Like he knew something was off.

He felt disoriented. He felt like he was watching himself from above that dissociated from reality feeling. So that's what I wanted to explore here is how much of this is always going to be in the player's hands. Because so much of diagnosing a concussion is a gray area. And the symptoms are internal. So if you are having double vision, I mean, you're the only one who's going to know that unless you're weaving around. and it's become obvious to others. So that's what I wanted to explore here is how much of the onus is on the player.

So when I was reading your story, that jumped out to me immediately, how much of this is on the players. And then my other kind of bigger picture takeaway is, this is a pretty fragile system, the way that it had originally been conceived of even with the independent neurologist, because the way that these guys are talking, I think Matt Hasselbeck, not surprisingly, did a very good job of articulating how easy it is to get around these tests. They're throwing kind of three random words at you, and then they ask you a series of questions that are almost a way to mislead you from remembering the words and then you have to repeat the words that they said at the beginning. That is not a sophisticated test.

It's pretty simple. So the way that Whitware talked about it is, if you're someone who has a little sharpness to you in your normal state, even in that state, you're probably going to be able to get around this. So now we're really putting a huge reliance on the players to report. this. And whether their teammates are stepping forward, they're stepping forward. That's a lot of trust that you're putting in their hands. So my biggest question is, is that do you think going to be a remnant of the way they did this before the two a moment happened? Or do you think that the vigilance now has stepped up a little bit? You talked about this player that was taken over because of the hit. And then beyond that, the Teddy Bridgewater situation this week, it does feel like teams have been a little

bit more urgent, and the league has been a little bit more urgent about saying we can't put this much of an onus on the players as part of this process. I do think in the obvious ones that the spotter can see and an official could see, like with Bridgewater and with the player who was the lead of my story, with those hits that are noticeable to people observing, I think it's going to be more vigilant in those instances for sure. And I think anecdotally, we've seen that play out in the last couple weeks, but there are so many, and this was something that kept coming up with the players, too, it's like, there are so many everyday contact that become problematic and could lead you to, you know, lose vision for a couple seconds or feel dizzy for a little bit. And the players all

kind of wonder, like, well, what is the bar? Like, where is the line between your normal hit and a hit that is problematic and someone, the kind of hit that head to head hit that someone in the booth is going to notice, or the independent neurologist on the sideline is going to see. So there are, I mean, there is just a huge kind of gray area of what are the hits that are problematic. There are the obvious ones, but there are also ones that, you know, you and I and the people in the booth are just never going to spot as problematic that actually are. And unless the player is forthcoming about that, they're going to go under the radar. Because as I mentioned with the player, the lead of my story, the anonymous player. The two hits that he had that gave him concussions and he's diagnosed with concussions

he missed, I believe he missed a game each time in the protocol afterwards, those were not hits that anyone else picked up on. That was him having to himself voice what he was feeling, voice what was going on. And I also have an anecdote from Ben Broniker in here who was a bear's tight end for four seasons. He ended up quitting football because his second concussion. He was a gave him double vision permanently. And so he was like, well, my job is to catch a football. I mean, this is, no one's going to want to hire me like this. So he ended up saying.

Also, that's probably at the time to kind of say, you know what, this is it. This is enough I want to have some quality of life as I move forward here. Exactly. So he was like, you know what, I'm done. But the interesting thing about him is that he is someone who had always wanted to go to medical school. He's very aware of, you know, the issues with brain hits, hits to the head. any sort of head trauma.

He was super aware of that, very conscious of it. But his second concussion in the NFL, it was his starting job audition. The two tight ends in front of him were hurt. This is a big moment for him. And he gets a hit in the first quarter of this game that if you watch the replay, it's like, wow, how did nobody pick up on that? It's very clearly helmet to helmet. It seems very forceful. It's kind of brutal.

You're like, okay, wow. And he, nobody notices. He didn't really think anything. of it at first, and then he starts to get dizzy. He starts to feel disoriented, but he stays in for the entire game. So he plays three more quarters, knowing, because he's had a concussion before as well, knowing what's going on with him. And he's like, you know, I really didn't have a great reason for not self-reporting. He had self-reported his previous one, his first one in the NFL. This one, he didn't. And he said, I think it's because I wasn't thinking clearly, number one, because he was

concussed. So his rational thinking was definitely inhibited here. And also it was his big shot. He mentioned that. He said, this was my moment. Like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to blow it. But he, right after the play where he is

hit helmet to helmet, Ms. Chubisky actually has a wide open touchdown pass to him. And the ball just goes right through his hands. Like, whiffs it completely. Nobody is around him. It would have been an easy touchdown. And he's like, I couldn't understand why I wasn't able to make a routine catch in that scenario. So that's just another

example of a player who, a player who's super conscious of his health. And he's literally in medical school right now and he wants to become a neurologist. And three years ago, he's on the field saying, nah, you know what? I have a concussion, but I got to keep going. And I know, I know it's not good, but I got to make it to the end of this game. So, I mean, that just shows you that I don't know how to fix it, but it's just a personal conflict that every conflict of interest, really, that every player is going to go through. There is no way to fix it. And I think that's the biggest problem is that the incentives on both sides here are pulling in two different directions. There are three things that I would kind of say to what you just said. One, the independent spotter can only see

so much, right? So it's one person up in the booth. Think about when you're watching all 22 of an NFL game. I got to watch it three times to see all 22 players. There's absolutely no way you can pick up on what every player is doing on every single play. So the obvious ones are the ones that people are going to see, like the Teddy Bridgewater hit. I am fully on board with what happened after the two thing. And if we are going to talk about prioritizing player safety, even if it's on the border and you think, God, it's the first play of the game and you're going to yank the starting quarterback out. Like, that's tough. So what?

Like, in those moments, it's better to be cautious. I think that's okay. Even if it is probably a little bit of an overreaction of what has happened. I do think it's the correct way to handle this. But those aren't going to be the ones, those aren't the only moments that happen, aren't the only collisions that happen. And so we are going to rely on players to self-report here, and they are incentivized to not report that. It's a culture thing.

It is a self-preservation thing within the league, your career, all of those things. So there are always going to be holes in this system, and it's always going to be a little bit fragile. But based on where we were and where we're going, based on how the last, couple weeks have gone, I do think that we're making progress and the reaction that has happened to what happened with Tua has been the correct one from the league to this point. Would you agree with that? I definitely would agree with that because I think there's, like you said, you can't fix everything, but there are things that you could fix based off of how we saw Tua go down. And they did address like the main problem with his situation, which was the ataxia, which is the fancy science

term for when you have clumsy voluntary movements like walking or trying to hold something and pick things up. And that's what we saw very obviously with Tua. And that's, you know, that goes back to the gross motor stability. So they added that as a no-go, meaning you cannot return to a game in the same game if you show any of any of that ataxia. So I do think that's a really good addition. And as you mentioned, like, worst-case scenario, the worst-case scenario, the worst-case is you're putting in a player, you return a player to the game who has a brain injury and then something like happens to Tua where he gets another hit. Best case scenario, I mean, you lose a game because your starting quarterback is taken out on the first series. I mean, I think in the grand

scheme of things, coaches and players, I'm sure, are going to have things that they're thinking internally about being annoyed with this. But in the grand scheme of things like this is the best choice for the help of the guys in this game because you just don't know. And people adapt. Think about what happened with Jamal Charles in that playoff game when he was taken out with a concussion. I think it was 2013. People were like, he's just out of the game.

And this was so early in the ways that we were treating concussions in the NFL and kind of the new way the league was approaching it. And now if a player leaves the concussion, it's just normal. It's because that's how it should happen. So I do think that players and coaches and just the structure of the league in general is more nimble in these moments than we might give them credit at first glance. They're going to get used to this, even if it feels a little bit abrupt at the beginning. Yeah.

And honestly, I mean, that happened relatively quickly. It took one Sunday of no change. And then the next Sunday, they had added the change to the protocol. So in NFL terms, I mean, that was pretty fast to make that adjustment. And the other thing I think is interesting, and I think teams could do a better job at this, is reminding the players the importance of self-reporting and just constantly bringing that up because Ben Bruner, I asked him, you know, during the season, do training staff, medical staff, or coaches ever remind you guys like, hey, like, if you're not feeling right in the game, like you need to

tell us because we're not always going to know. And he was like, no, there was none of that during the season. In the off season, the team doctor will meet with the players and, you know, go over common injuries and things like that, but he said during the season, that never was brought up again. And so I think teams, if they really do care, I think they could do a better job in that aspect of just constantly sort of bringing it up, even if it's annoying, like every week. Like, hey, guys, again, if anything's going on, you know, let us know. We're trying to help you.

And the other thing I thought was interesting for my reporting is I talked to an agent who said, you know, teams sort of have unfair standards for players when it comes to being honest. about their concussion symptoms because he had a player last season who got a concussion. I believe he was put in protocol. Mistigame came back from the protocol, cleared the protocol, and then ends up on IR by the end of the season with lingering symptoms from the same concussion. And he gets a call from a team employee with that player's team saying, hey, we really need your player to be more honest with us.

And he's like, listen to what you just said. Like you're asking someone who has a brain injury who is literally impaired with their thinking to be completely honest with you and to know exactly what's going on with him. He's like, that's not reasonable. That's not a reasonable expectation. And he said when he said that to the team employee, they understood. And they were actually kind of walked it back and they're like, okay, okay, you're right. You're right. So that is the hard part here is that I do think teams are expecting players who,

are impaired in the brain to be thinking rationally and logically and being able to be able to express themselves. So I don't, again, it's like how do you, what, what's the balance here if someone is injured and has a concussion? How are they supposed to be thinking rationally and clearly and advocating for themselves? I don't know. It's a, it's a really, it's a really hard spot. Yeah. It's a complicated conversation, but I think it's one that is worth digging into, and I'm glad that we did. I really appreciate you writing that. I think you did a fantastic job with it.

People should 100% go check it out. If you do not have a subscription to The Athletic, the athletic.com slash football show. Kowen does all this interesting stuff about the conversations that we're having but don't have the time to really dig into in research. She's going to do the research for you. So please go read it if you have not. Really, really encourage you guys to do that.

Kaelin, thank you very, very much for the time. Thanks, Robert. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. Sincerely appreciate it. Thank you so much to Greg for his time today. We'll be back tomorrow with our week six preview. Me and Nate, got some good games.

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