The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Top 10 mock draft with The Athletic NFL Staff

Episode Date: April 23, 2021

With the NFL Draft less than one week away, Robert Mays teams up with The Athletic’s beat writers for a top 10 mock draft. Which QB with the 49ers take at No. 3? Do the Bengals go WR or OL? Who will land Kyle Pitts? Tune in to hear Lindsay Jones, Connor Hughes, Matt Barrows, Tori McElhaney, Paul Dehner Jr., Josh Tolentino, Chris Burke, Joe Person, Nick Kosmider and Jon Machota break it all down.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Fun different show for you guys today. We're going to have 10 athletic writers on to do the top 10 mock draft. We got into the thinking behind each pick, but also just some big picture of philosophy questions about each team. Really enjoyed this. Before we dig into it, though, I wanted to remind you guys Thursday, round one,

me, Nate Tice, Lindsay Jones, Dane Bruegler, going to be coming to you live, starting with about the 15th pick in the first round. Nate and I will be together in Chicago. Every time I say that, it puts a smile on my face. I can't wait to do something in person. Dane and Lindsay will be joining us periodically throughout the first round. We're going to tweet this out a million times between now and then. But you can look forward on Twitter.

You can look forward on YouTube. Hopefully you'll be getting a push notification on the athletic app. So just keep your eyes open over the next week or so. We'd love if you'd come hang out, enjoy the draft with us. But right now, I'm very excited to get the mock draft started. Let's do it. All right. The Athletic Football Show, 2021 mock draft has officially opened.

And the Jacksonville Jaguars are on the clock. We do not have a Jaguars rider at the Athletic. So to handle this drama-filled selection, so many different guys could go here. We had to bring on Lindsey Jones. Lindsay, thank you for doing this. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be first.

I've been pitching in on a lot of our Arizona Cardinals coverage. So this is really fun to branch out, move over to the Jags for a little while. But yeah, not a ton of drama. So is there a drum roll? Do I get to how are we going to do this? Just let me, let me have it. Who are you picking? Who are the Jags picking with the number one overall pick?

All right. With the number one pick in the 2021 NFL draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select Trevor Lawrence, quarterback from Clemson. Wow. Shocking news. I appreciate that. So obviously, we've known this forever. I think they're operating as though Trevor Lawrence is already on the team in a lot of ways down there, as they should.

This is a guy who's been talked about for so long. He was the number one recruit in the country coming out. He was the best player in the country as a freshman. Nothing has changed. Let's not overthink this at all. I wrote yesterday about why we've seen some highly drafted quarterback succeed or fail, and the circumstances they walk into are often as important as what we think of them as prospects. And I think that might be a more interesting side of things for the Jaguars here.

So as you look at the support system, they have set up for him. How confident are you about Trevor Lawrence sinking or swimming here in year one with the Jax? I mean, yikes. I mean, I don't think he's walking into like a perfect situation by any means. I mean, he's walking into a team that's in a complete rebuild with a coach who has never coached in the NFL before. I mean, Urban Meyer has been a very good offensive coach for a very long time in college football. And I think kind of everything else that's gone on with. the Urban Meyer experience and kind of who he is as a program builder and a program manager and all

the drama. Like I think we've maybe kind of forgotten kind of who he was at his core as as an offensive innovator and what his contribution to football is. That said, I mean, they have a lot of work to do. And, you know, Trevor Lawrence seems to be that transcendent sort of talent where he should be able to succeed in, you know, any sort of offensive system. But the fact of the matter is, is they need a lot of help on their offensive line. The receiving court isn't that good. You know, the running backs are okay. Their defense needs a lot of work.

And yeah, I mean, I think he's walking into a very difficult situation. Hopefully they'll have some patience there. You know, hopefully this Urban Meyer experience will work for Trevor Lawrence's sake. If for nothing else, then, you know, I think Trevor Lawrence seems like a really likable guy and, you know, you want it to work for him. And this is the challenge that a lot of these number one overall picks face is you're coming into a team that's kind of a mess. And for his sake, you know, I really, I really hope it works.

It's just, it's just wild to me that we're, you know, here at the draft. And is he like the least talked about number one consensus player ever? And I think that's a function of all the other guys that you're going to talk to or talk about on this later on this podcast. But, you know, he seems to be the, you know, a sure thing. Maybe the bar is a little high for him. I mean, Gil Brandt, the Hall of Fame executive long time with the Dallas Cowboys. Now he's kind of like, he's the king of the draft. really.

Sure. He called Trevor Lawrence, John Elway, the athlete and Peyton Manning with accuracy. You're getting the best of both of them. Yikes. I mean, that's... Two of the five greatest quarterbacks of all time, possibly. Yeah, right? That's a lot.

I mean, that's really unfair. I think for Trevor Lawrence to have to live up to. But look, this is a no-brainer pick. There's been no drama about it. I do appreciate that Urban Meyer and the Jags haven't really been, like, trying to put up this, like, shirons. I'm like, oh, who are going to take? You know what?

All options are on the table. I'm really, I totally agree with you. So when I'm looking at the surroundings, let me play devil's advocate a tiny bit because I do think if I were going to tank and I were going to tear it down and I was going to pick a quarterback first overall, I would do it this way. They've torn down every area of the roster. They've purged all of it of expensive veterans except the offensive line. It's not a great offensive line.

But all five starters or five capable starters that have been on the team are coming back this year. That's why they franchise Cam Robinson. So it's not great. But it's not the worst line in the league. It's probably not even one of the 10 worst lines in the league. This is not Joe Burrow 2020. That's exactly right. We don't even have to go back that far to see a quarterback stepping into an awful situation.

This one might not be great, but it's not terrible. You look at the receiving core, DJ Chark, Leviska, Chanel, Marvin Jones. There's enough there that you can get excited about it. You can talk yourself into them looking pretty good in year one if he's everything he's cracked up to be. And also, this team has a ton of resources. Cam Robinson's on the franchise tag. DJ Shark is walking in to the final year of his rookie contract. If they want to pick a left tackle with a 23rd overall pick and then they want to pick a receiver in the second round, go nuts.

It doesn't matter. You're in a rebuild, but you still have enough to survive the 2021 season, in my opinion. And I think that's a really nice sweet spot. I'm so curious what the offense is going to look like. Because Darrell Bevel is their offensive coordinator. Darryl Bevel is the most football establishment name you could possibly have in this situation. A guy that's done this for 10 years. We've seen him in a couple different places.

But what is his offense going to look like combined with what Urban Meyer wants to do? Brian Schottenheimer is there. So there are obviously questions. And I think that Urban Meyer and his influence is the biggest question. but I do think we've seen number one overall picks walking into far, far worse circumstances than the one that Trevor Lawrence is the ones that Trevor Lawrence is about to face because the thing with the Jags is their defenses is what's terrible. They have probably the worst defensive personnel in the league,

but I still think their future, the guy they're putting all of this on is set up to be okay in year one at the very least. And like you mentioned with Burrow, we don't have to go back that far to find an example on the other side of this. So that said, and I think you're entirely right and all of those points are fair. If we talk about how bad that defense is, you're okay with them taking their next two picks on offense? I know this is the first round mock, you know, top 10, but. I'm okay with it.

I would be okay with it because I think you have to understand by bringing Robinson back. I know you're paying a premium, but I think you're covering all your bases just in case the draft doesn't fall your way. But I don't think they should get ahead of themselves. I don't think that there should be any spots on this roster when you're picking first overall and you're an objectively bad team that should block you from picking a prospect that you think is really good. So if you're at 25 and Rashad Bateman is there or one of these tackles is there and that's the guy that you like the best, I think that's okay. Obviously, they have a long way to go on both sides of the ball.

And I think understanding that and that it's going to be a process and not getting ahead of yourself is really good. And that's the problem here is when you have a guy with Lawrence that's so valuable. you're on a couple different timelines. You want to set him up to succeed right away, but you don't want to invest too much. It's all of these different things that have kind of competing motivations. So I like what they've done to set him up to survive in his first year, but I still think they should be considering what's best for the long-term health of the franchise,

even as high as 25 or with their second round pick. Sure. Yeah. I think all of that is fair. And now that this drama is out of the way, we can really start paying attention to what the Jags are going to do for the rest of the weekend. Because like you said, I think that's really going to be telling of where they're at and how quickly they can help Trevor Lawrence get there. The last guy that we have talked about this little that was the number one overall pick, I think, was probably Andrew Luck.

And that is now the cautionary tale about how not to handle a number one overall pick. I mean, beyond the offensive line issues that they had, play style. all the deep dropbacks, how many times he was getting hit. It's the exact example of what not to do. And I think that's now the question. We know Trevor Lawrence is going there. So on both a personnel level and schematically, how are they going to insulate this guy that has all the talent in the world,

but you have to make sure that he lasts for the next 10 years. And that is now the challenge with them. And so in some ways, I think what they do over the rest of the draft is way more interesting than them picking Trevor Lawrence. Yeah. Yeah, and we just have no idea how Urban Meyer is going to do any of this. We have zero evidence of how he's going to function in the NFL. So the Jags with Trevor Lawrence as their number one pick,

they're going to be one of the most interesting teams to watch this year, next year, as long as this whole thing is going, as long as the Lawrence Meyer combination is together at least. It's just amazing that you lose enough games, you get a guy who is a focal point of the league already, simply because he's walking onto your team. And that is the position that the Jaguars are in. Lindsay, thank you very much.

We will be back with you for next Tuesday show, so not too long. Appreciate you doing this. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks. Talk to you later. All right, it's time for the second pick. The New York Jets are on the clock, similar to the first overall pick in this draft. Not a lot of intrigue, not a lot of mystery based on everything that we've heard.

Here to talk about who the Jets should be taking the Athletics Zone, Connor Hughes. Connor, how are you doing, man? I'm doing one man. How are you? I'm good. I really appreciate you doing this. So like what I alluded to, not a lot of mystery. here. It feels like all the signs are pointing to Zach Wilson. Do you agree with that?

And then also, when do you think the tide turned that direction? And what do you think push them to Wilson as part of this process over some of the other quarterbacks available? Yeah, I think it's everything pointing towards Wilson. I would be stunned for one if it wasn't Zach Wilson here and his name called there at the second pick in the draft. And, you know, it does make a lot of sense. I know there are some concerns there with him. You know, he's got good size, but he's not the biggest. He's got some past injury history there with a shoulder issue and things like that. Obviously, didn't play top-tier competition at BYU. I mean, that's not an SEC, Big Ten, anything like that kind of a schedule. But when you look at the things that this kid does

well, and you look at what scouts say this kid does well, I mean, it fits very much with what the Jets want their quarterback to do because new offensive coordinator, Michael Flore, who Robert Sala brought over with him from San Francisco, he's going to run that Kyle Shanahan system. It's going to be a carving copy of that 49ers offense with the Jets. And that offense obviously is going to be very run heavy. It's going to be based off a lot of play action passing. But what it wants the quarterback to do is to get out of the pocket and move a little bit. Not necessarily Lamar Jackson move, but be able to throw the ball on the run, right?

They wants a guy that's going to be deadly accurate, you know, somebody who's going to be able to make those throws, somebody who can throw off platform a little bit. That makes that offense pretty good, makes that offense click. What takes the quarterback and the offense as a whole to the next level is what, but the 49ers don't necessarily have in Jimmy Garoppolo right now. And that's a quarterback that when the run isn't there, when the play action is not working, you have a quarterback that can stand tall in the pocket, take strikes down the field,

and deliver the ball down the field, and stretch the field. I basically just read off the Zach Wilson scouting report. I mean, he is a perfect, perfect scheme fit for this team. And he asked about when the tide turned, I think it was probably his pro day. When the Jets were able to meet him in person, talk to him in person, see him throw in person, get some of those medical red flags checked off and realize they're not really even concerns at all.

Once they were able to do all that, it was Zach Wilson's team basically with the Jets. And obviously the Jets made the decision to trade Sam Donald a little bit after that. One of my favorite things about how the Shanahan-Cubex system has proliferated on the league is it looks different everywhere. When you filter it through different quarterbacks, it looks different. So what the Packers do with Aaron Rogers looks different than what the Niners do with Jimmy Garoplo. Some of that is coaches in their own taste, but I think the quarterback informs a lot of that. And that's why I'm so interested to watch what this version would look like. Because if they lean heavily into the boot side of this and they love the keeper game,

if Michael Fleur brings that with him, having Zach Wilson operate outside of the pocket and to put his little sauce on some of those plays where he's moving and there's creativity involved, that looks so much different than the boot game looks like with a Jared golf. And I think that's what's so fun about it is that even if the bones of the system are the same, the ways that different players and coaches put their flourishes on it based on their strengths and tastes and all that is really cool to watch. And I think if you watch Zach Wilson, that was some of the best stuff he did. When he's on the move and he has that little creative flourish that he can put on stuff, it looks beautiful. And that's exactly the types of opportunities he'd be getting with the Jets.

Do you think there was any sense even laid in the process for a guy like Justin Fields or a Trey Lance? Or do you feel like even before the pro day, it was probably Zach Wilson in pole position for this? this. I think it was, I think it really came down to, honestly, man, I think it was probably Zach Wilson or Sam. I honestly think that was it because when the Jets were looking at Sam Darnold, they viewed him as a quarterback who could have success within the scheme and shameless article plug. But when like the Jets hired Sala and then he brought on the floor, I kept hearing about like the Shanahan offense, Shanahan offense, right? I mean, I cover the Jets, which basically means I don't cover offense, right? Like that hasn't been around too too much lately. So,

I made some calls to people that I know around the league. I made some calls to people that were very familiar with Sala, specifically in game planning against Sala. And obviously, if you're game planning against Sala, it means you're game planning against Shanahan. And I just asked them, like, well, what is the Kyle Shannahan scheme? And I did the same thing. What is a Robert Sala defensive scheme?

Just tell me what it is. And the one thing that they stressed there when I was talking to him, and that's where I kind of got all that information I just spute. I mean, look, I'm no quarterback guru. I'm not breaking down the X's nose. Everything I just said about like, like, know what on this show currently is yeah everything everything i said about uh how wilson fits and he's the wilson scouting report it's all based off what people tell me man i'm not trying it to think i'm not i'm not

dain there's there's a very big difference from me and dain but um i i think that what what i was kind of told there was like sam can work in this the system like there's where he's been best his rookie year under bates like those are the best moments that we saw from him it doesn't even require that much imagination yeah and and that's the thing is like sam has that mobility to move outside the pocket. Sam has the ability to throw on the run. Sam is athletic. Sam has arm strength, even though he kind of struggles a little bit with putting the ball in harm's way and getting turnovers and stuff like that. And that's where they were like, you know, and a lot of the people stressed me like Sam can work in this scheme. Sam can work in this scheme. So what I think it came down

to wasn't necessarily Fields, wasn't necessarily Lance, because the Jets were not lying and the Jets weren't trying to just, you know, save face when they were stressing how much they genuinely still believe in Sam Darnold. They still like, exactly. Yeah. So then they were saying all these kind things about Donald. They really did believe he would work and be a much better quarterback with a better surrounding talent in, in this offensive scheme.

But I think what this really came down to is that they looked at Zach Wilson and they looked at Sam Darnold and they felt in their mind that the upside of Zach Wilson was a little bit greater than than Darnold. And aside from that, you also get Zach Wilson over the next four or five years on his rookie contract. When with Sam Darnold, you got to pay him next year on that fifth year option. and then obviously an extension after that. So I don't think this was necessarily the Jets in the market for a quarterback.

This wasn't necessarily the Jets saying we have to replace Sam Darnold. This was the Jets going in at the second overall pick, seeing a talent and a player in Zach Wilson and realizing we can't be known as the team that passed on Wilson. Just like you don't want to be the Bears who passed on Pat Mahomes or all of the other teams that passed on Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson or any of these other guys, the Jets couldn't afford to be that team. They couldn't afford to pass on this player. So they traded Sam, got a pretty good haulback for him, and now they're going to run with Wilson.

Yeah, it's an opportunity. When you're picking in the top five and you have a chance to reset your financial clock and also just to start over, even emotionally just to start over, I think that there's value in that. And the Falcons are facing a similar thing where, you know, maybe we don't need a quarterback, but if this is a chance for us to get one and to start over and to hit on a top five pick when we don't want to be picking there again, that's an opportunity. So I want before you get out of here, I know we're talking about the number two pick, but they have a second pick in the first round. Speaking of shameless article plugs, I wrote yesterday about the support systems that are in place for Wilson and for Lawrence and everything else. So I'm curious, is there a position in your head that you think that they should be targeting either the first round or the second round to help Wilson and to help prop him up a little bit early in the process? Yeah, all of them. Honestly, all of them.

Yeah. That's good to hear. Yeah, yeah. The Jets that haven't made the – I mean, I've covered this team since 2014. They have never made the playoffs. they've had one winning season, and it was in 2015. I mean, this team is bad. You don't back your way into a 2 and 14 record.

You finish 2 and 14 because you are a bad football team. And when you're a bad football team, you have a lot of needs. And obviously, the Jets could go past rusher. They could certainly use one, even though they just signed Carl Lawson. They could use somebody opposite him. They could go cornerback. They need a cornerback. They were making a conversion with Robert Salo to a 43 defense.

They don't have any 43 outside linebackers. They could go there. But I think the one thing that Joe Douglas, stressed the last time we talked to him is that he is, he is very aware of what the Jets did to Sam Darnold in terms of, and it wasn't him, it was Mike McCagman for that 2015 through 2019 drafts, but the Jets never surrounded Sam Darnold with talent. They never gave him a top tier offensive line. They never gave him top tier playmakers. I mean, they failed in developing him, and because they failed in developing him, they failed in evaluating him because they basically

was Sam and nothing else. He admitted to us the last time we spoke to him that he, needs to do a better job and the Jets need to do a better job of putting the pieces around the quarterback. So once they take Wilson, you got your quarterback. Now it's about make his life easy. And you can do that a number of different ways. I think the top priority and the top spot that the Jets got to have to have have to have to go to here is offensive guard. I mean, they like what they have in George Fan at right tackle, like what they have in McCoy Beck, then it left. They have to improve the two guard positions because Alex Lewis and Greg Van Roten didn't cut it last year. They're not going to cut it this year. Cona McGovern, probably okay for another season at center,

but the Jets have to get better at guard. Once you do that, you can expand it. Now maybe they go for a tight end. You know, maybe they look there. Maybe they go with another receiver to get somebody else in the pipeline. If they decide to move on from Jameson Crowder next year, or Keel and Cole goes on after his one-year contract. I mean, just get playmakers for this kid, get linemen for this kid.

Keep them upright and healthy and they make his job easy when he decides to throw the ball. Lajara Tucker, the USC offensive line. He'd be somebody that I'd look to in that first round. Landon Dickerson, potentially, Tevin Jenkins, any of those guys. guys I think would be options at number 23, and good ones at that. Because like I said, the Jets cannot do to Zach Wilson what they did to Sam Arnold. I don't believe they will because Joe Douglas is the guy that's calling the show now.

But obviously, you know, you got to practice what you preach. And the Jets, obviously, that's the next step in them in this rebuild. I'd love to see them address the line. I mean, they took some swings last year. They did something very similar to what Buffalo did in the second season before Josh end off Josh Allen's tenure. They took a lot of dice rolls on cheaper offensive linemen hoping to fill some holes and it just didn't work.

The hit rate wasn't very good. So if they think, you know what, that's a sunk cost. Let's draft one high. Let's solve this problem. I think that's a good approach. Connor, thank you very much, man. Sincerely appreciate the insight. Good luck with the draft.

Good luck with everything. Thanks for the time, bud. No problem. Thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate it. All right. It's time for the third overall pick, which has been an object of fascination for the last like month and a half here.

I mean, it is the pick in the draft. It is the domino that is going to fall because it could change the entire complexion of the top 10, which quarterbacks are available, which teams are after quarterbacks. When the Niners made that trade, they instantly became the team that controlled the draft in a lot of ways. And for us to sift through that, I'm thrilled to welcome. 49ers ready for the athletic Matt Barrow. Matt, thank you so much for doing this.

Oh, you're welcome. And you're absolutely right. I mean, it's the pivot point in this draft. And it's the one that's driving everybody crazy because nobody can figure it out. And usually it's between, you know, when that's the case, it's between, two players, which player A or player B. We got player A, B, and C in this one. And you have basically an equal number of people who think that it's going to be one of those three guys. And nobody really knows at this point. All right. So why don't you just throw out the name and then we can go

from there. Okay. Just right with anticipation here. The guy I think that they're going to wind up taking is Trey Lance. Wow. All right. From North Dakota State. And I'll tell you why. I think that this was a big, bold move to trade up to number three. They gave away two future first round picks, a future third. When you do that, you have to go with a guy that you think has the most upside. And I know that Lance is raw in a lot of ways and hasn't played a lot of games,

but you see that potential in him. Big arm, big guy can run. It's smart. ran a pro-style offense. These are all the things that I feel like Kyle Shanahan thinks that he can work with in the future. He's twitchy. And that's one of those things. When you watch him play, he plays quickly.

He moves quickly. And with Fields, that's one of the questions is that even if the progression stuff is overrated, he can play slow a little bit of times. He's even slow to run at times. And I can understand where that would give a guy like Shanahan pause. But so everything I've heard and all the conversations that people have been having is that Mac Jones makes the most sense here. Literally every single person I have talked to in the league,

when I've asked them, I ask everyone what they think. Mac Jones has been the answer 95% of the time. One person said Shrey Lance or Mac Jones, they weren't willing to go one way or the other. So why do you think some of that stuff with Mac Jones has been overblown? Well, I mean, I vacillate like everybody else. We're talking in the 5 o'clock hour here, California time. At 6 o'clock, I could be best.

back on Mac Jones. So, you know, there are great arguments to be made for Mac Jones. The biggest of which is that he operates well in the pocket. And that's what Kyle Shanahan's top criterion is working in the pocket. Now, my argument for Lance is that a good coach like Kyle Shanahan, and he's surrounded by a lot of talented assistant coaches too, ought to be able to get a guy like Trey Lance to that. at Mack Jones level at some point. And then, you know, Tray Lance has so much more. He's got the better

arm. He's obviously the bigger guy. He's obviously the more athletic guy that can turn, you know, broken plays into touchdowns. You know, there's been a lot of discussion about what the Kyle Shanahan prototype is. And everybody says, oh, you know, it's Kirk Cousins. I mean, he's been pining for Kirk Cousins for years and years. It's that pocket guy, not flashy, but is strong in the pocket. You know, the real prototype for a Shanahan quarterback is John Elway. I mean, that's the most successful guy that, that, that, that, a Shanahan has coached. And you can throw Steve Young in that as well. Mike Shanahan was the offensive coordinator for Young in San Francisco. You know, Kyle Shanahan grew up on the sideline watching those guys.

So to me, Lance has a little bit of John Elway in him, too, in that, you know, he's a big guy, 225 pounds or so, is sometimes the guy who's delivering the hits on a lot of these plays that you watch. And I realize that it's caliber of competition and whatnot. But, you know, this is the 49ers team that has watched its quarterback go down with injuries in two of the last three seasons. So I think durability and being able to kind of take a pounding has got to be a criterion in all this. And, you know, Lance and Fields, I would think, are much better in that capacity than Mac Jones would be. I feel like I've combed over all of the things Kyle Shanahan has ever said about quarterbacks in the last couple months for hidden meaning. And there are a couple different things I keep coming back to. They did that press conference after making the trade.

And he was talking about Kirk Cousins. and he was being honest in the way that Kyle Shanahan occasionally is honest, and it would not be advisable for most other NFL teams. And he said, yes, I wanted Kirk here, but that's not how you draw it up. And I thought that was so interesting because when he wanted to sign Kirk Cousins, when they drafted Kirk Cousins in the fourth round in Washington, when they drafted C.J. Bethard in the third round. When they traded a second round pick for Jimmy Garapola,

those are marriages of convenience. Those are moves you make because you don't have an avenue to get a quarterback with the higher ceiling. And when he was talking about Kirk, he said, that's not how you draw it up. When you're drawing it up, you would pick the biggest, fastest, strongest guy who's also good in the pocket. And I keep coming back to that. Maybe it was nothing. But I just keep coming back to that idea when you don't have to do something because there are no other options. You make that trade up to three so you can have the perfect guy.

That's what I keep coming back to. And then the other side of this with Trey Lance, the conversation about him is that maybe he needs to sit for a little bit. And if they truly believe, and this company line is factual, that they want to keep Garapolo this year, it would make sense with the timeline that you could sit Lance for a year behind Garaplo and then he starts next year. So I've just been trying to read the writing on the wall. I don't know what's real. I don't know what's not. And as far as I understand it, no one really knows.

This is a Kyle Shanahan-led thing where there isn't a lot of information leaving that room. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, you would think that they had somebody in mind. when they made that move. And to me, the way I kind of piece it together in my head is that it probably was Mack Jones that made them comfortable with the move to go up to three, that there was enough on film that Kyle Shanahan could see

an easy transition in his mind that this guy can operate in my system. So they knew that there would be a clamoring of teams trying to come up into the top five, And they felt comfortable enough in Jones to do that. You know, bottom line is that, you know, we could take Jones and he could operate in the system. That gave them, you know, the time to research, do more, you know, background on each of these other guys. And that's sort of the question.

Did they see enough in Lance or in fields to kind of move them off that mark that they had set? you know, it's the classic floor ceiling debate. Matt Jones has the high floor. I mean, that's what it is. But like I said, I think the way I see it happening is that Kyle Shanahan will convince himself that he can get Tray Lance to that floor. But Tray Lance is sealing. I mean, there's a lot of buttons on that elevator that still can be pushed for Tray Lance. And that's the thing.

And to your point, they don't have to start him in week one. They don't have to start him in week 15. You know, they can afford to kind of keep him around, learn the system, do whatever they think is necessary with him. They can afford to build him into exactly the type of quarterback that they want. And that's sort of what this whole, you know, pre-draft process is. You know, sitting, not sitting down, zoom. with somebody like Trey Lance and trying to figure out, okay, can this guy learn?

Will he be receptive? Can we turn him into the quarterback we want? And from all indications, everybody you talk to thinks that Trey Lance is very good at exactly that. Had a lot of responsibilities already at North Dakota State. We sort of look down our nose at North Dakota State because they're not in the Big Ten or the SEC,

but that's a sophisticated offense. And they have a very sharp, program there. I mean, you have to know your, you know what in order to be the starting quarterback. So, you know, my sense is that they would like what they hear from Tray Lance when they do all that research. And it's like you said, Kyle Shanahan might be able to talk himself into the idea or convince himself he can bring Tray Lance up there, but he might be able to convince himself that he can make Mac Jones the best guy in this class. And I think that's the biggest question, right? It is, what does Kyle Shanahan think of himself as a play caller?

and what sort of guy in the ideal circumstances, because that's what this is now. These are now the ideal circumstances. You're not picking a guy because you have to, and he's one of the limited options available. They have true variety among this group, and the guy they pick will tell us once and for all what kind of guy Kyle Shanahan thinks should be running his system. And that's why I can't wait. I mean, this is the moment that everyone is waiting for, and I think justifiably so, because very rarely is a team, one, two years removed from the Super Bowl,

but also that has ideal offensive conditions in a lot of ways. It has a play call where everyone respects. They have weapons. They have a decent line. Not very often does a top five quarterback walk into these circumstances. And I think that's why there's so much interest and intrigue around this. And it's not going to stop until we see them on the field in week one or whatever they do with Garapolo. It's not going to stop until we see how this process plays out.

And you just made the best Matt Jones argument, which is that the star on this team isn't the quarterback, it isn't the running back, it isn't George Kittle. The star on the offense is Kyle Shanahan. And Kyle Shanahan wants somebody who can run his offense to perfection, run it the way that Matt Jones ran Sarkeesian's offense at Alabama. I mean, there's some nice analogies to make from the weaponry at Alabama to what Shanahan has at the 49ers. He just need, you know, sort of the- Get it out, let him go. To run it all. Right, exactly. So that may be the conclusion.

I just think that at the end of the day, Shanahan will think I can get a little bit more, too. I can get that, but I can get more if I bring in Trey Lance. Am I right? No idea. We're going to find out like around, what, 6 o'clock p.m. Pacific time on Thursday. And if I were Kyle Shanahan, I'd be looking at Trey Lance and say, I don't need to be right every time if it's that guy. That guy will give me wiggle room.

He can help me. He can allow things to happen to create when things break down in a way that Mac Jones can't. It just provides you more flexibility while also having that ceiling. But maybe that isn't important to him. And we're going to find out what's important to him very shortly here. Matt Browns, thank you very much. man, really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

No problem, Robert. Talk to you soon. All right. It's time for the fourth pick. A very, very important pivotal moment in this draft. To help us make this pick, Falcons writer from the Athletic, Tori McElaney. Tori, thank you very much for doing this. Appreciate it. Yeah, no, I'm happy to come on and talk about this number four pick, which is literally Atlanta being the wild card of this draft. So obviously, I feel like the draft starts at three in some ways just because we don't know who's going,

but we still know it's a quarterback. Right. And that's why the Falcons are just an endless amount of possibilities. And you've explored all of them. You've talked about the trades down. You talked about them picking a quarterback. I think you have thought about this from every single possible angle. So with the fourth pick, where are you going?

I'm going with Justin Fields. I think if he falls to number four. And that's the thing. That's where I am just kind of sitting here. And maybe I've said this, but maybe it's like my general like storyteller bias, popping out, but the thought of Justin Fields coming back to the state of Georgia. After being raised here, after going to UGA and then transferring to Ohio State and the thought

of him coming back to be the future quarterback of the Atlanta Falcons, that to me, storyline was, is the best thing that could happen. Now, will that actually happen? I have no idea because like what we were saying, the Falcons could go any direction. They could go any which way. But I really do think if Kyle Shanahan's sitting there at number three and he really, really wants Matt Jones as the pick or even Trey Lant, if Justin feels false to number four, I really think that the Falcons, that's a very enticing idea for the Falcons to pursue him. So do you think, and based on the conversations you've had in your own personal feel on the situation, do you think that there are multiple quarterbacks they would take there or do you think that Fields is in a class of his own compared to some of those other guys? I think that they would take Justin Fields or Tray Lance.

I have said this a couple of times where I am looking at Justin Fields, Trey Lance, and I honestly sometimes think that it would probably be better for Matt Ryan if it's Trey Lance and not Justin Fields. Because Justin Fields is like this local guy, and he's such a different player, and he's very exciting. And people around Atlanta know him and know of him and know his story. I think as soon as Matt Ryan throws his first interception in week whatever,

the entire fan base will be calling to see Justin Fields. I don't think that happens if it's Trey Lance. I think they understand that he's a project. They understand that he's going to sit behind Matt Ryan for a couple years. With Justin Fields, I don't feel that. So I think that's what I weigh is like, okay, which option between the two works best for what's going to happen with Matt Ryan in a year, or two years until the Falcons can get into a situation where they are not financially

obligated to pay him millions and millions of dollars. And you're weighing those two options. And then the other two options you're weighing are, is it best to make this team better right now? Or are we in a unique situation where we should take the quarterback because we're not going to be back here again? I was talking to somebody who I really respect yesterday in the league. And he said that he thought Justin Fields was the second best quarterback.

He's like, if I was in that range, he would be the guy I would take over Wilson every time. And it was almost nice to hear because I feel like I've been taking crazy pills. Because Justin Fields is this guy who people have talked about for five years as this supremely talented prospect. All he's done between now and then and now is play great at Ohio State at a very high level program. And he has an endless amount of physical tools. So if you're the Falcons, even if you're looking at your offensive personnel and saying, how we could be so good right now, what if we took Kyle Pitts? And what if we just took a great offensive play? right now or even Penn & Sewell or whatever it would be, can we be a top five offense this year?

You could probably talk yourself into that. But is this a rare chance? Is this the only chance you'll get picking in this range with this type of quarterback talent available to set yourself up for potentially the next 10 years? And I get both sides of it and I am not envious of Terry Fontenau and Arthur Smith having to make this decision. I have said that so many times too where I'm just like, I, you know, you've considered. I said this when we were talking about like salary cap stuff.

I was like, I don't envy Terry Fonten's job having to get the, get the Falcons within the range that they need to be in. And I still, with this being his first draft as a general man, first time general manager and he has the number four pick in the draft, and you're thinking about drafting a quarterback, which you already have a franchise quarterback on the roster. I mean, these are some really big, like, altering decisions that will, that will impact the next two, three years.

And that's what they're weighing right now, I feel like. I feel like they're looking at this and they're like, do we think that we're going to have another opportunity to grab someone like a Justin Fields? And the way that I look at it, and just from talking to people within the Falcons organization and everything like that, even before Terry Fontno was hired, before Arthur Smith was hired, when we're talking to Arthur Blank and Rich McKay,

they both said very adamantly that they think this team can be good now. and that they don't foresee being a number four pick anytime soon. Now, granted, they could go out in 2021 and just, you know, play horrible and be, you know, win four games, whatever. That's always a possibility. But they really do believe that they have the pieces, especially offensively, to win more games. I mean, they were in so many games in 2021 or 2020, just couldn't pull them out. but that's the thing is like, okay, what are we weighing here?

Do we actually think that we're going to be in a position like this again? And I don't think you run that risk of thinking like, oh, we'll be able to draft a quarterback in 2022. I think you know what type of player say Justin Fields is. And even like, you know, I was covering the University of Georgia when he was being recruited. And so seeing his recruitment even through college. And even through high school and into college, it was like, this kid's going to be really special one day. So if you have the opportunity to get someone special, wouldn't you want to? But it's so funny because we have a lot of theoretical football conversations in this show.

It's one of my favorite things where you have these big kind of existential considerations. And how you balance the president in the future is one of the biggest questions you can ask. And with the Falcons, it's not theoretical. It is in practice here, we are having a conversation and they are showing. showing us which of those two things they value if one of those quarterbacks is on the board. And I think that's what makes this pick so fascinating is that it's no longer theoretical. It is right there in play right in front of our faces for us to see. So if quarterback is not the consideration, I know that we're not doing this in this specific

instance, but do you think that they would probably trade back if they had the chance to just based on a team really needing a quarterback at four, let's say if the Niners take Mac Jones, for example. I do think that trading back is still a possibility with the Falcons. And I say that because it makes economic sense for them to do that. Right now, the Falcon, you know, we're a week away from the draft as we're recording this. And literally, it's a situation where the Falcons don't even have enough money right now to sign their draft class. Like they don't.

They don't have that money yet. They do not have the funds. So if that's the case, you think about getting like bang for your buck, your number four pick is going to be way more expensive than your second round, third round guy. So if the Falcons are looking at this and being like, we need to fill holes now, like we've got to get more people on this roster. If that's what they're looking at, then yes, trading down makes sense. And you would be able to potentially get quite a haul for that number four pick

according to what team you're looking at trading with. But you have to have a willing trade partner. And you have to have an offer that makes sense. you and I think that's something. I think Terry Fano is going to be really like driving up that price because he knows he needs future first round picks. He knows he needs a couple picks and maybe the second and third, fourth round of this year's draft. So it's all going to come down to what's offered. That's really what I, what's offered and also who's taken in number three. I really think that. As a practical football person, I can understand and support the idea of

taking a rare quarterback in a rare opportunity and trading back. As a football watcher who just wants to see the craziest shit that could possibly happen, I want them to take Kyle Pitts. And I wanted to beat Kyle Pitts and Calvin Ridley and Julio Jones in this offense with even Mike Davis, who I think was really fun last year. There are questions about the offensive line, obviously. We'll see what Hennessy can do in year two. And I think that the right side has not come together in the way they probably would have

expected when they picked those guys in the first round. But overall, if you drop Kyle Pitts, who I think is a special, special prospect into this equation, it could be fireworks. Like absolute fireworks. So whatever happens here, I know I'm going to be excited to watch the Atlanta Falcons in 2020, whether that's with the quarterback, pits, whatever they end up doing. I just think that it's the skeleton key to the whole draft. It's what unlocks everything. And that's why we talk so much about it. Tori, thank you very much for taking the time.

I really appreciate you doing this. We'll talk to you soon. Awesome. Sounds good. All right. It's time now for the fifth overall pick, one that I have spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about over the last couple months. And this man has done the same athletic bankers writer Paul Deiner Jr. How you doing, man? What's up, Robert? How are we doing? I'm doing okay. I'm very ready for this draft to happen, but I'm having a great time doing this. You and I have talked about this pick a lot. The team Sewell versus team chase debate.

We've dipped our toe into those very muddy waters here over the last couple. months. So for our purposes here, which side are you landing on? Am I landing on or am I predicting that they pick? Because those are two different things. So who are you predicting that they pick? Which side do you think the Bengals land on in this scenario? The Bengals will land at Jamar Chase, I believe. I think all signs point to that. I think the idea of putting together a team of Tyler Boyd and T. Higgins and Jamar Chase and Joe Mick. and Joe Burrow all signed up for the minimum of the next three years to grow together. Is too loring. Chase is too good. He fits too perfectly what they are missing.

They were great in the intermediate. Joe Burrow was great in the intermediate. He was great in the underneath last year. Their deep ball was awful. They felt that everyone was pushing up on them. They weren't respecting them down in the field. So guess what? Jumar Chase is the perfect antidote to what ails you there. And for that reason, I think that they will end up going that way. I understand that. I completely understand that logic. And I have been pigeonholed as this Sewell guy this whole time.

And I feel like it's been unfair because I only wanted to point out where we typically find these players over time, how it's happened. And I just think that a rare player tackle is rarer than a top line receiver. But if they want to spin it that way and they see where their needs are and how this draft might fall and if they think they can find interior offensive linemen in the second round, which if you look at the depth chart right now is still where they're weakest, I completely understand that argument. And it's fun. It's objectively fun the idea of pairing burrow with Chase. Obviously they have a rapport. And I do think that if you were just picturing it in your mind, skill set wise, you know, Higgins and Chase, you could probably both.

You could probably both peg them as X outside receivers as your number one guy. But I still think that with Chase's skill set and with his contested catchability and everything else, that juice combined with Higgins being a little bit bigger and Boyd in the slot, it makes sense when you picture it. So even if I'm supposedly this offensive line guy and all this other stuff, I completely understand why they would want to go in that direction. I get it. Yeah, there's no, I mean, there are two good options. I mean, when you're picking here and the entire draft that's non-quarterback is at your disposal, there's good options and you're going to improve your team greatly. Really, the bigger thing with this to become Team Chase is team number 38, right?

It's because they have to address that immediately. They will address that immediately. And the universe of players that are going to be the offensive linemen, a lot of them with guard tackle flexibility, where they can do what they did back in 2006, where they drafted Andrew Whitworth, who came in as a guard, who can be the tackle of the future. They trust me, they love the idea of that, along with what they did in 2011 when they had a super need at quarterback, and they drafted the elite receiver anyway in A.J. Green and got Andy Dalton in the second round, as you and J. Gruden talked about recently, that that philosophy of leaning on past successes in ways that they've handled this problem,

the Bengals don't change. This is the same front office today that made that pick and a, 06 that made that pick in 11. When you are dealing with this organization, you can lean on history. You can lean on their biggest successes when trying to read the future. And I think that's a big part of why you would think Chase. And while they'll look at that second round universe, there's a lot of really talented players there that were going to be offensive alignment. That certainly would show up day one and start for them at guard and could be a guy in

the future at tackle. And all of those things put the puzzle together for them where I think they go chase. whether that's the right call or not, we'll all learn in three years. But for now, I think that's the puzzle for them. The big question to me with this entire thing has always been scarcity, where if you can find somebody that's 85% of Jamar Chase in the second round, is he were taking fifth overall. And with receivers, I've always thought it has to be that generational guy,

that special, special guy, like AJ Green or like Julio Jones. It just happened to be that the two best wide receiver prospects in a decade happen to be in the same draft. And I don't know if Chase is that guy, but somebody that people think is that guy is Kyle Pitts. So do you think there's any consideration because his skill set is rare that they would think about him at this spot? I think there's consideration. I think we've heard we've talked to Duke Tobin recently and he's talked about, look,

specifically in regard to trading back, I'm not going to get us out of the range of a premier player. I think there are multiple premier players that they would be absolutely comfortable with. And you could see them moving back, you know, to maybe, even as far as nine, if Denver wanted to come up for a quarterback in some theory, and I feel like they could still get somebody from that premier universe. That would absolutely unequivocally by everyone's board, include Kyle Pitts, including this team. And I just think the advantage of Chase for them,

if you're having to compare the two, is Chase just gives you a little bit more of what they ale, what ails them in the explosive deep game, and they value a little bit more in their tight ends, the jack of all trades that they already have in Yuzon, and sample and kind of are set enough at that room, whereas that wide open, clear deficiency in the passing game is already out there at the exorcier response. The question of why does your deep passing game struggle?

How do you help it? It's just so interesting because you could absolutely argue that maybe Joe Burrow has a problem throwing the ball down the field, no matter who he's throwing it to. You could argue that some longer developing plays might be easier to execute if he has more time in the pocket. And we've seen Tom Brady get rid of the ball very quickly and still have a very deep average depth of target. But Burrow in the second reaction plays and all that other stuff. If you draft alignment and your line is better, are there more second reaction plays available that lead to explosive plays? There are just so many different layers to this. And I feel like

I've considered every single one over the last couple months. But I completely understand why, in all of this, with all of these moving pieces and how you consider the puzzle pieces that they would land on Chase as the best way to unlock that passing game. I still get it. Yeah, I know. There's no doubt. And I think they certainly would have run more design deep balls. I mean, they were in the death by a thousand paper cuts offense last year when Burrow really, when they kind of got it going midseason. They had found out a way to work around their deficiencies up front, use Burroughs, you know, efficiency in the, in the shallow game and the intermediate and let them have 12, 13, 15 play drives. And they were just, you know,

doing it and they were doing it but they they could because they couldn't be explosive enough it's a hard way to live partially because they couldn't drop back they were afraid they didn't want to get him hurt and inevitably endably it happening but they they couldn't drop back enough and then a j green was not a j green you know he he unfortunately was not the same guy at coming back from these injuries they needed him to be and so when they didn't have that um it really it made for a whole lot of just throwing deep for the sake of throwing deep even though you know it's probably not going to connect and being significant. And they feel like a lot of that could change with Chase.

But I just, you know, I say this team, the other aspect of this is they just have not done a great job of evaluating offensive linemen later in drafts going back the last seven years. And if you have the better chance to hit at a position that you have not been good at, go with that, particularly at this need. When you look at some of the way they have actually drafted receivers later on drafts has been great over the years. The way they have drafted defensive tackles and edge rushers over the years in the mid and rate late rounds has been great consistently. But this has been the area they have struggled with the most and it has killed their entire franchise.

So to me, that's the other side of this is the idea of can you self-scout your own drafting ability a little bit? Are you willing to do that? And that's a question. I don't know a lot of teams would want to have to ask themselves that. The number one thing here is they need to get this right, point blank, no matter which position they go with. I think for this regime, this is the make or break selection. You need to put something around your guy this year. I wrote yesterday about support systems for quarterbacks taking in the top five.

And that wasn't there. They just did not do enough for him. And whether it's with receiving help or somebody up front or both in the first two rounds, they need to get that fixed. I think there might be some people looking for jobs here in about a year. There's no doubt. Seats are hot. Awesome.

Paul, thank you very much, man. Always good to chat with you. I'm sure we'll catch up soon. No problem. See you, Robert. And it's time now for the sixth pick. Miami Dolphins, in my opinion, one of the more interesting teams in the entire draft. Obviously, they have two first round picks. They have a pick high in the second round.

This team is just flushed with draft capital for what seems like the third or fourth year in a row. And with all the additions they've made in free agency and the way they've built this team, not a ton of glaring needs, which is why I feel like they're a team to keep an eye on. Here is talk about the dolphins, their thought process, and to make their pick. it's the athletics Dolphins writer, Josh Tolentino. Josh, how you doing, buddy? Robert, doing great. It's amazing how you kind of worded that is that it seems like this is the third or fourth

year in a row and it's not the end of it. I mean, these next few years, they have multiple first round picks, this draft capital to continue either building their team around Tua or, you know, make other decisions down the line. But if we're staying here at number six and the dolphins, you know, they might move. But we are going to go Kyle Pitts. It's the absolutely athletic tight end. I don't even know if you want to call him a tight end from Florida.

I think he's going to, you know, regardless of what team picks him, you know, for the dolphins specifically, I think he'd do amazing things for this offense as they continue to build around to them. So obviously they move back up from 12 to 6. And the thought with that is now that we know their quarterback's going one, two, three, there are only three players that could come off the board before, two players that come off the board before the dolphins picked. So obviously it's between a couple different guys. They have probably had that mindset when they made the trade.

Would you say that's fair? Oh, absolutely. And just knowing that all these teams are trying to get a quarterback with this class. I think they were in a good position. Did they give up too much by going back and giving up that, you know, they had a lot of ones? I mean, they still do have a lot of ones. You know, we're talking about these next few years. But, you know, obviously time will tell over these next few years and what they actually do with this pick.

So if Chase had still been on the board, obviously he's gone. Would there have been a conversation in your mind between Chase and Pitts? Or do you think if both of those guys were to be available, Pitts would still be the guy and the choice in your mind? I think that's definitely fair to say. You saw Chris Greer, the Dolphins General Manager at LSU's Pro Day. Obviously, Brian Flores was up in Gainesville to see Kyle Pitts do his thing. So, you know, they split on that end.

But I think there's definitely intrigue on both of those players. and there's got to be a sense of intrigue, and the possibility of reuniting to it with Devante Smith or Jalen Waddle. They've obviously got that built in chemistry. And to his mind, it might make perfect sense to get one of those two. But the dolphins are thinking long term here. And I think Kyle Pitts, you know, you asked me specifically about Jamar Chase, that is definitely going to be a fair consideration there if he's still available at six.

And if the dolphins do stay at six. If you were stacking up their priorities in terms of roster building, would it probably go, I'm sure offense is over defense. Is that a fair thing to say? 100%, 100% offense over defense. They concentrated on defense last year, both in the draft and mostly in free agency. But, I mean, that has to be the concentration right now. It's getting this offense better surrounding to it with more weapons.

So, okay, so then you would stack up weapons over offensive line. Because even though they've put some resources into the line, first and second round pick last year, it still feels like with all of the draft capital they have. And in this draft specifically, let's say if they wanted to go tackle at this spot and they wanted to pick a pass catcher at 18, it almost feels like they could flip these if they needed to. But in your mind, pass catcher is still a bigger priority than more help along the offensive line. Yeah, and as deep as this wide receiver class is, I mean, we are all talking about the big four, Jamar Chase, Kyle Pitts, Devante Smith, Jaylon model. I mean, there are a lot of solid depth options, you know, even extending into day two of the draft.

but the dolphins, the way you got to prioritize it, if I'm Chris Greer, it's got to be receiver. You know, you talk about edge rusher, having edge rusher and running back kind of there at 2A and 2B, and then the line. We talked about the offensive line a little bit. They drafted three guys last year. You referenced the first and second rounder in Austin, Jackson, Robert Hunt. But I'd argue that Solomon Kinley, the fourth rounder from Georgia, he actually had probably the best season out of those three in terms of progression and development. I think there's still a lot of potential there between those three, Austin Jackson, heading into the season. I think the emphasis, if you're Chris Greer, if you're Brian Flores, is surrounding Tua with more weapons.

We're all talking about Tua and who, you know, Sean Watson, whoever the quarterback is, they need weapons. And that's kind of the clear reality here in Miami. It's interesting because a lot of these teams, I think the Bengals jump out. When you're talking about the wide receiver depth, they need outside options. Tala Boyd is solidly their slot receiver. in Miami, they have two outside guys. I mean, Will Fuller and Devante Parker there now, you have two strong outside options. They could go for smaller, shiftier, space-type player if they needed some pass-catching pop in the second round of the draft

where other teams might not be that interested in that range of guys. My last question for you, if they go with Pitts theoretically, if he's there and they pick him, which I would love, by the way. I think he's the best offensive player. I think they should be concerned with just adding as much juice to their offense as possible. If they pick him, how do you see the interplay between him and Gisicki working on the field together? Because both of them are nominally tight ends but have skill sets where they can be used in a bunch of different ways. So when I'm trying to imagine it, I'm just not sure how those pieces fit together,

even if they most likely would have a plan to make it work. Yeah, and just rewinding really quickly to their, you mentioned the slot. I mean, it kind of seems like Jalen Waddle would be a perfect fit. Sure. But is he deserving of being that number six pick? and the dolphins feel comfortable moving back and still being able to get him. That is the issue. I think when you talk about tight ends specifically,

I think we all got to remember that Mike Kisicki's contract is up this year. Yep. What does he see? And, you know, this goes with any contract negotiation in any industry, but especially, you know, his market with tight ends. Is he trying to get paid like a Travis Kelsey? Yeah, he's,

I'd argue that he's one of the toughest players in the locker room that, man, he suffered this gruesome shoulder injury at the end of last season and somehow was still able to play again later in the season by Week 17 at Buffalo. He's definitely got that grit, and he wants to be on the field. But in regards to production, I'd argue that he hasn't been used as best as he could. We've obviously seen his production go up here over the past few years. But speaking specifically with how him and Pitts would work together, we got to remember this is Brian Flores.

I mean, he comes from Bill Belichick. He comes from New England. He's got a lot of experience using. coaching even against a multi-tight-end set. So I think from that background, you have to remember and consider that Brian Flores did come up from that tree. He spent a lot of time up there in New England. And not only that, look who is the co-offensive coordinator now down in Miami. They've got Eric Stoesville, their former running-to-back's coach, but also George Godsey,

former play caller in Houston and most recently the tight-ends coach in Miami. And I know Gatsy was out there with Greer at LSU's Pro Day, but I'd argue that he might want to say Kyle Pitts, if it were on his mind. And I think that mentioning the Gassiki contract is really smart because in my mind, you look at the snaps at Durham Smyth and Adam Shaheen had last year. There are snaps to be had at tight end if you want to upgrade, but it's about player style, right? Pitts is more like Gisiki in terms of being a pass catcher first, blocker, second, where those other two guys give you a little bit more bulk. But if you're taking the long view of this, which, again, going back to their mindset, has been admirable. This team has had its own timeline, its own way of doing things. They haven't been scared off with the way that they've built this team because of outside forces.

And if they think Pitts is the best building block moving forward, I can understand them saying, you know what, maybe there's a little redundancy. Maybe there's a little bit of an overlap. We don't care. We're going to figure this out and pick the best players because we're still building this thing. So I think it makes total sense. If he's there, I totally get why they'd want him. and I think they're a better team for it.

And that's really smart to mention the depth chart of the, you know, Miami's tight end situation. You mentioned Smythe. You mentioned Adam Shaheen, who got an extension last year from the team. Not only that, they added Stephen Carter. I know he's primarily a special team's guy from the Bengals,

but they gave him $7.8 million. You don't just give that to, you know, any tight end. So they've got arguably four guys who are set to make the roster. I mean, all at least, you know, the other three, they were set piece. on last year's team and I really don't see that changing if they had pits so um I'm thinking pits but if chase is there I mean it's going to be a tough tough discussion there in their draft room obviously they've got their their mindset on who they want or you know what maybe maybe they

might move back and I know that wasn't allowed in this exercise but I think they they're very high also on those two guys from Alabama I know too is for sure awesome Josh thank you very much my friend always get a chat with you we'll catch up down the road I'm sure Robert really appreciate it, man. Hope you enjoy the draft and have a good one. All right. It's time for the seventh pick here. Detroit Lions, thrill to welcome. Chris Burke, one of the Lions writers for the athletic. Chris, how are you doing, man? Doing all right. Excited to, well, I guess it went all right. The top six picks won okay for Detroit. So pretty good spot here. They after the, I mean, obviously there are a couple pivot points in the top five. What the Niners are going to do changes the quarterback dominoes.

What Atlanta ends up doing changes a lot of the calculus. But I do think that's, I do think that's seventh pick is a prime spot for Detroit to move down if they want to if another team wants a quarterback. That's not an option here. So you were forced to pick someone. Yeah, right. So with the, with the guys that had come off the board, who are you taking with the seventh overall pick for the Lions? Yeah, we're going to take Penae Sewell, the offensive tackle from Oregon, and just see how that goes. See if we can build up that line a little bit more. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think this would have been a spot to try to trade down. But I, you know, that's happy to get that pick. I think that's a good pick for them.

So how do you think that fits with the other guys they have on the line right now? Obviously, they signed Vaitai to that fairly big contract. I want to say last off season, right? Yep. And then you have Taylor Decker at left tackle, some question marks at guard. So in your mind, do Sewell or Vaitai play inside for this year and then Soule bumps outside or Vitae comes inside this year? How do you see that playing out?

I think they're going to start Vaitai inside and just sort of see how that goes. He's a bigger guy, is a good run blocker. He couldn't stay healthy last year. I don't know how much you can even rely on him. But yeah, I think in this scenario, you'd play Vaitai at right guard. You'd put Sewell at right tackle. You know, he'd be like 25 when Taylor Decker's contract expires next time. So you could kick him over to the left at that point if you wanted to.

But, I mean, I think you could be building a pretty good line there. Frank Ragnow is one of the best centers in football. Decker's a pro bowler. You put Sewell in there. You got Jonah Jackson from last year. So kind of like what you would be building there up front. I totally agree. What are the quarterback considerations here?

Do you think if the right guy is there, they would think about it? Because the golf thing and the timing of it and their timeline as a franchise, I just have so many questions about what they're trying to accomplish. Yeah, I keep repeating this on our Lions podcast and did a couple of spots around this week. And I think that the big question for them is, is there one quarterback that just sort of shifts the conversation for them in this first round? because I really don't think they want to take a quarterback this year. You know, I think they want to build the foundation of this thing, you know, quote unquote, the foundation.

They want to use golf for a couple years. They trust them to just at least be a competent starter in the short term and get this thing, you know, sort of the groundwork laid and move forward. But if Lance is there, if Fields is there, does that change your timeline? Does that change your plan? I don't know. I mean, I think in that case, they'd look to trade down. I think that's still their ideal scenario, but there might be one guy that totally shifts things for them.

Because if you look at some of the moves they've made this offseason, I actually love what they've done in terms of not spending a lot of money, figuring out how to dig themselves out of this hole, going and signing guys like Prasad Paramit and Tyro Williams rather than spending big at receiver when you have needs. Those guys can keep those seats warm for this year. I think on defense, it was hard to change course, you know, the Jamie Collins. contracts, some of those other moves, you're locked into a version of that defense. But they haven't spent any money and they've torn it down as much as they realistically could in some ways. But the golf edition goes against that.

So I just don't understand which direction they're trying to move and where a quarterback at 7 would fit into that. Do they think they just need a building block there? I think there are just so many mysteries about what Brad Holmes and this regime is and what they want to be doing that really anything seems to be. be on the table right now. Yeah, you're right. A ton of mystery because it's not just Holmes. They brought in Ray Agnew in that scouting department. They brought in John Dorsey, who we know his history of drafting quarterbacks. And that sort of points you toward, well, maybe, maybe that's

what they want to do this year. But to me, I think it's, again, I think it's two years. That's sort of how long they're tied to him to golf on this contract. I think you have two years to figure out what you want to do. And really three drafts. I think this draft, next draft, and the draft after that, while they have these extra picks they got from a Stafford trade, you go try to figure it out. So I don't think they're desperate to get a quarterback this year. I don't know that they'd be desperate to get one next year, but if they find the right guy, again, maybe they sort of take a right turn and change course.

But I do think that they trust Goff to be their starter for the next two seasons, if that's the way it plays out. So outside of quarterback, would you say that there is a position group where there are blocks, where there are roadblocks to picking anybody? Is there anywhere where they're not set, obviously? this team isn't set anywhere, but somewhere where they think, you know what, we're okay for here right now. They're just a position that's off the table more or less. I really don't.

I mean, I think, and that's, you know, the bad part of that is that you know, you're not a very good team in the draft. The good part of it is that everything's wide open for you. Maybe running back. I think that's probably the one where they feel okay. And even that. I hope they don't take a running back at seven. They're not taking a running back at seven. But even that, I was going to say, like, I wouldn't be shocked if they found some guy on day three that they really like.

and is their number three, and then they sort of squeeze Caron Johnson out. So I think everything's really on the table for them here. Like you said, they have some pieces in place and especially up front. You know, that offensive line looks like it could be all right. Defensive line. If you keep Trey Flowers healthy, they re-signed Romeo O'Corp. They traded for Michael Brockers. It could be okay.

But, yeah, they're not in it. There isn't a single position on that roster other than like punter maybe. Or they're feeling like they're 100% ready to go. think. And that's, it's interesting because that freedom is nice. If you're not locked into everything, you can just say, we're going to start building this thing. And I think that's how they should be thinking, especially in offense, because while Decker and Ragnow are probably long-term guys, Vitaio is not picked by this regime. They could get out of that contract as early as next year if they wanted to. And like we talked about with the receivers, those are short-term deals. Those

are stopgap options there. If they love one of those past catchers at seven, I don't know if I would pick one there, but it should be on the board for them. And that's why I do see them as just this pivot point in the draft. Let's say another team loves Jalen Wattle and the Lions want to trade out. I think they're a prime candidate to do something like that. I'm way more interested in what the lions think about this draft and the decision that they make than I probably should be at this stage of their trajectory as a franchise. Yeah, I think you're right because I think we talk about the quarterbacks. I don't think it's just the quarterbacks. Like if Sewell's there and they don't want to tackle. Someone will trade up for Peninsu.

And you're right. I think Waddle too, if Chase falls and they don't think that's the way to go. Like, I think there's a lot of possibilities for them. At seven, I think they're going to be active. You know, they're picking obviously high in every round through round five. I think they could be moving pieces throughout this draft, but especially up top. If they can, you know, they really want to build this through the draft. They want to try to do this without throwing money immediately at free agency. but they only have six picks this year. You can't do that with only six picks. So you've got to go find some other ways to get some capital.

And trading out of seven would be the easiest way to do that. On defense, obviously what Patricia was doing was an outwire schematically. And he built that defense in a really specific way. So when you guys have had conversations with the defensive staff so far, have you gotten any indications of what sort of shift might be happening on that sort of the ball and how that might inform the types of players they're going to be chasing this week or next week. Yeah, I mean, I think we're still waiting to see a lot of that too. I mean, it's going to be different for sure. They want to get faster, which I think is a given that was probably the

slowest defensive unit in the league last year, especially a general manager told me it was the slowest defense he's ever seen. So there you go. You're talking last year. You have to get fat. You almost can't get any slower than you were. So, you know, Matt Patricia, I like to say that they were going to be multiple and versatile. And they never really were. It was just basically the same thing sort of dressed up different ways. I think this defense will be a little more multiple than what we've seen before, but I definitely want to get faster. So I think in terms of, you know, if you go by a position, you know, they need some, they need a coverage linebacker. They need a slot corner who can run with guys. They need some penetrating defensive tackles. They don't really have any of those. So again,

you kind of just go down the list and you could check off any box at any point in this draft. So it's going to be different. I don't know. I mean, Aaron, Glenn has some roots in the Bill Parcells scheme. He was in New Orleans last year where they played a ton of just like two-man defenses, two-man coverages. They had the personnel to do that. And that's the question is how if they don't feel like they have the guys to play that aggressive sort of style, do they use something a little bit different?

Those are the questions that always exist with a new regime. I will say, though, I mean, beyond, we talked about some of the stopgap signings on offense, I think trading for a guy like Michael Brockers makes sense. Like, you're trying to establish a culture without spending a ton of capital one way or the other, and it does feel like that's what they've tried to do this off season. I understand the moves, and I'm interested in them. I'm just wondering what the next step of all this is, and that's what we're going to find out. Right.

That's the thing. I think they have done a good job that you had to just get through so much of what Bob Quinn had done and just sort of crumple it up and start over because the cap wasn't in good shape. The roster was in terrible shape. They didn't have anything in place long term. We got no players. We got no money.

So, you know, this season. really like this off season was just about sort of setting fire to everything, burning it to the ground and figuring out how to move forward. And so now next off season you look at and say, well, they'll have some money. They have all these one year deals expiring. They can maybe start to make some progress. But you're right. I think that this, this really will give us the first big idea of what the plan moving forward is because even, you know, Brockers is, is a, is a good player. He's going to be great in that locker room and he'll help you kind of move forward. Same with golf. Same with those receivers you mentioned. But who's going to be here in

2024 that's getting you towards the playoffs? There's like four guys on that roster that you would say. So that's really, like you said, that's the next step. And I think one important thing to think about, because with some of these teams that are drafting in the top 10, you'd say, if a quarterback is there, take one, because you might not be back here again. I think Atlanta's a team like that. I think the Broncos might be like that. The lions are not like that for multiple reasons. One, I think they'll be very bad. And if they are very bad, they're likely to be picking high again. And two, they have a ton of capital.

If they need to move back up, if it's a quarterback class that's really shallow, let's say they have the eighth pick and it's a two guys in that class or we're taking in the top five. They're going to be able to have the flexibility to do that. They've built that in to what this rebuild looks like. So that's just one more thing to consider. Chris Burke, really appreciate it. Man, always good to chat with you. Thanks for taking the time.

Yep, sure thing. It's time now for the eighth. overall pick. The Carolina Panthers are on the clock. Obviously so much intrigue associated with their quarterback position. They made this trade for Sam Darnold, but there's still a quarterback on the board here. Very curious to see what our expert has to think. Joe Person, our Panthers writer at the athletic, joining us now. How you doing, man? Really appreciate you doing this. What's going on, man? Not a whole lot. It's been an interesting offseason for you to say the least, and it's not going to get any less interesting here as we keep going. So first things first, who is your pick?

Let's do that. Let's do that. Who is your pick here at number eight? I'm going to take Alabama corner Patrick Certain the second with the eighth pick overall. All right. So a lot of questions here. You are not going with Mack Jones, who is still available. If there was another quarterback on the board, is there somebody you think the Panthers would consider here at 8 if he was still available? I think they would consider Justin Fields more strongly than they would Mac Jones and or trade lands. Just the sense I get talking with people that I think Fields is the most intriguing of that kind of second tier group. I think the Panthers, they've done the due diligence on all these guys. You know it.

I mean, they've been in on every quarterback all offseason before getting darned. Will that preclude them from taking another one? not necessarily, but I do think it gives them the flexibility to go hit some other big positions of need, namely left tackle. But for the purposes of this mock or this exercise, there's no Penteuseu available. And so then I think they go to corner next. I think they like all three of these top corners, including Farley and J.C. Horn. So it wouldn't he be out of the question for me to see them trade back.

to a point, you got to find a trade partner, but trade back to a point where they could still maybe take one of these top three, one of these other top three corners. And that's the question, does some other team that's picking a little bit later in the draft like Mack Jones? And that becomes the logical trade partner there. So you think, so no Slater, you feel like there's a gap there in their minds that if Sue was there, they'd take them, but if not, they'd move to another position.

That's the toughest. That's the part I haven't figured out this whole pre-draft is where did they, debut Slater. Because as you know, terrific player. It had an awesome day against Chase Young. But he does look like he could end up being a guard at the next level. And do you take a guard in the top 10? Maybe, you know, but maybe they got them rated as a tackle,

in which case it's a different conversation, a different evaluation, and maybe they do take them. But my sense is such a deep tackle class that takes. your corner here and then go look at tackle a little later on. Not too later, not too much later, but that's what I'm going with. I mean, obviously they signed AJ Boyer in latent free agency. They have Dante Jackson. But Boyer, it's a two-year $7 million deal, almost all of the guarantees in year one. He's going to turn 30 this year. Dante Jackson's contract is up at the end of this season. So even if they believe those guys are going to be starters this year for them, this could be a long-term plan if they go with somebody.

like Sertainne because if you look at all the strengths and weaknesses of this team, past defense is still probably number one if you were stacking them all up. No doubt. And I'm glad you brought those other guys up because, yes, if they had to go into 2021 with Boyer and Dante Jackson, sure, yeah. But Boyer is a guy who struggle with injury and a suspension last year looks to be kind of on the downside of his career. So he's a rental. Dante Jackson, maybe you can resign him, maybe not. I mean, James Bradbury was a free agent last year, and the, you know, the Matt Rule, and at the time Marty Herney let him walk.

So I just, in playing in this division, hell, playing in any division in this league, you've got to have the back end, you know, nice and tight, and they haven't had that. Again, they could use a left tackle too, but I just think how this top. These top five, six, seven picks are going to fall. I think corner probably makes more sense for. Do you think they have to come out of this draft with a left tackle? Or do you feel like if they miss on that in the first couple rounds, they'd be comfortable swimming in the pool with the Villanueva's

and the kind of spot starters that might still be available after the draft? Because it feels like that group, Villanueva, I think there are a couple other options out there. I mean, Russell Kung is even a free agent. But having to go to that group of guys, it feels like there's a holding pattern there now. teams are waiting after the draft to kind of shop back in that area because they can't. Yeah, potentially.

And they've kind of already done that already. These are a couple of signings that went under the radar and for good reason. But they brought back Trent Scott, who was a guy kind of came with, he came with O'Koon from the Chargers, basically. The Panthers O'Line coach's front was with the Chargers. Trent Scott started like six games last year. He's a former undrafted free agent. He didn't play poorly. I don't know if he's your long-term answer, but they brought him back as a restricted guy.

He's an option. And then they went out and signed Cam Irving most recently with the Cowboys started some games at left tackle. So yes, to your point. They gave him a pretty decent contract. I mean, it's right on the border of starting money and swing tackle money. I was looking at it yesterday. So I always try to read into the contract values to see what they think the role is. And with that one, it almost feels like if we have to play him in a pinch, we can.

But ideally, he'd be the swing tackle for us. That's my reading into what they gave him. Right on. Right on the money. And I think they need a left tackle. But, you know, the draft capital that they might have used to trade up and get one, not all of it, but I mean, you know, they use some picks to go get Donald. And so I don't think they're trading up.

If anything, I think they trade back. And with Donald, I just see what happened. with him at the Jets and I just want him to have every real shot. And that's why some additions along the offensive line would be nice to see because it is an area of concern. I do think that they did a good job mitigating some of it with scheme last year. And Joe Brady is mindful of that kind of stuff. But it still would be nice to see them have a building block there, just a piece of

granite in front of him if they're going to go that direction. So one more thing about the quarterbacks. Do you think they'd be comfortable kind of taking two dips with the Darnel Trade and then with Fields if he was there? They wouldn't think that's too much of an investment. They want to come away with that guy no matter what, and they think Fields would be worth it at that spot. I mean, they've taken a lot of swings.

I mean, from bringing in Dwayne Haskins in early January to being in big on Stafford, to being in on Deshaun Watson, to whatever degree you could be in on him at that time. So to take another swing, no, it would not shock. Having said that, just kind of some of the things. you hear Matt Rule and Fitterer talk about, you know, Sam Darnold working out already with McCaffrey, I think he's going to end up being this, that they want to see if he can do it. They feel like he can. But if Fields is there, it sure would give me pause.

I mean, I would think about it, bringing them in and, you know, letting those two go at it and see, you know, whoever's standing. And, you know, you haven't picked up the fifth year option yet for darn. I think they probably will, but if you take fields, then maybe you don't. And then you're really letting them go ahead. Is your understanding that they haven't picked it up just to give themselves flexibility before the draft, just in case they were to look into somebody at 8, they don't want to be locked into it?

I think so. I mean, if you look around too, like nobody is, you know, they're all sort of putting this off until after the draft the way it timed up this year. And so, yeah, I think they're kind of kicking that can a little bit. just in case. Awesome. Joe, thank you very much.

Always great to chat with you. I'm sure we'll catch up down the road. Thanks a lot, man. Thanks, Robert. Appreciate it. All right, it's time for the number nine pick. The Denver Broncos, another team that could potentially go quarterback

if the board falls their way. Coming on to do this pick, we have Athletic Broncos writer, Nick, how you doing, man? I'm doing well. How are you doing? I'm doing great. This has been a very fun exercise.

And again, the Broncos are, I think, in a really similar situation to the Panthers, a team at the back half of the top 10. We've had quarterback conversations about them all offseason because there are serious questions about Drew Locke's future there, everything else. So who are you going with with a ninth overall pick for the Broncos here? Going to go with Michael Parsons.

You know, I think. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, as we talked about it, I think that the quarterback situation with the Broncos is something that they could certainly, you know, they could certainly go with, right? We know you mentioned Drew Locke, 32nd rank. passer in the league last year.

We just talked to George Payton today and he says, you know, look, we like Drew Locke. And part of the reason that I don't think the Broncos made a move in free agency was because, you know, he's saying, are we going to overpay a guy to come in and we don't even necessarily think he's as good as Drew Locke. So I think they, I think it's going to have to take a quarterback falling to the Broncos the way that they want, you know, the one that they want. I think they probably have their target. But with, you know, regardless of the quarterback spot or if the quarterback, the quarterback,

back spot doesn't appear the way they want it to. Adding an impactful player on Vic Fangio's defense, I think, could be the right move, especially when you consider that, you know, linebacker is probably the one position they didn't address in free agency. You know, they signed Kyle Fuller, signed Ronald Darby, extended Justin Simmons, brought back Kareem Jackson, picked up the option on Bond Miller. So they kind of, Shelby Harris, they accounted for just about every level of that defense. And with Parsons, you have a guy, I think, who could give them that really athletic backer who could kind of deal with the Travis Kelsey's and the Darren Wallers of the world, a little bit better, obviously, than what they've done in the past few years.

And it's so interesting because this roster is really good. There aren't that many glaring holes, and it almost snuck up on us. I think part of that is because they managed to land Fuller and some of the other moves that they've made on defense, getting Von Miller back. I remember a couple weeks ago, I was racking my brain after they signed Fuller. I was like, who's the Broncos' second edge rusher opposite Bradley Chubb. I was like, oh, yeah, it's Von Miller. And that's where they are in terms of their defensive personnel.

So is there a quarterback? Mack Jones is the one on the board right now. Do you have an inkling for which of those quarterbacks might intrigue them if it's a different guy than Mac Jones who might be available at night? I think it's between Justin Fields and Trey Lance. And, you know, George Payton has kind of kept it close to the vest. When he was asked to evaluate those guys today, you know, he essentially gave him the same evaluation. He said they're both fast. they got strong arms, a lot of talent, a little bit raw, but you see the high ceiling.

So he's not in any way tipping his hand. He says they have not made any kind of calls, you know, about moving up. So, but he also added that, hey, that's going to be something that's going to have to happen for us on draft day. And it really, because we don't know if the player we like is going to be there. And I really do think for them, it's coming down to one guy. If I had to guess, I think it would be Fields just because I think they would see him as, even though he's going to have some growing, he's going to have some learning. I think they see him as maybe a little bit more ready.

And in my mind, and this is kind of just to be speculated, but if they do take a quarterback, I don't see how you're going to have those. He and Drew Locke exist, coexist. I think that if that's the route that they go, it's because they're ready to kind of move on. They'll bring a veteran in, you know, to either start the year or, you know, or to, you know, mentor that young QB. So if they don't go quarterback, do you feel like they have to do something to create competition at that spot.

Obviously, the musical chairs and the way that it's happened, there aren't that many veterans left and there aren't that many landing spots for veterans. But there is that connection between George Peyton and Teddy Bridgewater. They were together in Minnesota. Do you think a Teddy Bridgewater-like figure could be the other body in that quarterback room if they don't draft one in the top ten?

I think so. And I think he would probably actually be the most likely guy. You know, somebody that I think could, you know, could compete with Drew Lodge. And you look at the rest, Nick Foles, Garner Minchew, you know, I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple of guys that could be on that trade block. It's not a deep list, so you're okay. It's not a deep list. But, you know, again, then that's what makes the draft for the Broncos so interesting is because George Payton reiterated again today.

He said, listen, we, you know, I've said since I got here, we want competition at that spot. and they haven't used any of these multiple chances to create that competition yet. You know, we know they were in kind of on the Matthew Stafford deal, weren't willing to pay the price that the Rams did. So, yeah, that's the fascinating part of it. And that's why, you know, when we did this, certainly I think if one of Tray Lance or Justin Fields had been there at number nine, I think that would kind of be the pick out I would have made. I'm just not sure that Jack Mc Jones is going to be that guy for them, just because I see a lot of some of the similarities with Drew Locke.

I don't think you're getting necessarily a really different player there. And clearly they're high enough on Drew Locke that they didn't feel the need to go get Ryan Fitzpatrick or Andy Dalton or anybody like that. So it is, I think they're one of the most fascinating teams in the league in terms of what they're, you know, they're one of the few teams in league that doesn't have their quarterback situation kind of figured out. And here we are a weekway from the draft. It just seems to me that a guy like Teddy Bridgewater isn't an exciting answer.

but for a team like this, it might be a worthwhile path. Because if their defense is as good as we think it can be, especially if you throw a guy like Michael Parsons into the mix or whatever, their personnel is very good. And I trust their defensive coaching staff. It's not as if they've assembled all of these great players and they don't have the right guy at the top. Vic Van Joe is still very, very good at this.

Questions that you have about him as a head coach, fine. But he's a really good defensive coordinator. So if they have a top five defense this year, this is a team that was dead last in the NFL. and turnover margin last year. They're minus 16. It almost feels like having somebody, even if he's not a thrilling option

that can keep the train on the tracks, that can take care of the ball, might be what's best for this team in the short term, and that just doesn't seem like Drew Locke, but it might seem like Teddy Bridgewater. Yeah, and here's the thing I wrote today, right? Like the thing that is kind of, that Big Fangio probably can't afford,

the thing that's killed in the last two seasons, is he is a combined one and seven in the first quarter of the, season the last two years. Owen, four, his first year, one and three last year. He's about 500 the rest of the way, but those starts have just torpedoed any chance they had of making the postseason the last two years. And so if you're a veteran coach like Fangio, you're saying, listen, like I'm coaching

kind of for my job this year. I do kind of wonder what sort of input he's had in terms of, you know, starting a rookie quarterback for a coach like that that needs to win. It needs to win early in the season. And that's the other component of this that I think makes it, makes it interesting. Do the Broncos say, you know, hey, we're going to draft this guy. We're going to draft, say, Justin Fields. You play them when you think the coaching staff is ready.

We'll go get a veteran for you that can come in like Teddy Bridgewater. And just like you said, steer the ship the way it needs to go. You know, that's, I think, another option because you're right. They have the defensive place and the skill players. Look, I mean, Cortland Sutton's coming back from his ACL injury. Noah Fance entering his third year. Jerry Judy and KJ Hamler now have a year under under their belt. Albert Okouyebunam, the fourth round pick last year who showed some flashes.

And the offensive line, George Peyton said, I think we have a top, you know, an offensive line that's in the top third of units in the league. They believe Joanne James, you know, whether that's a fool's there or not, they believe Joanne James can be the starting. To be an upgrade of what they had last year, period. I mean, that's, I think that's the way you have to think about this. Yes. Yeah, so long as he sees the field, he will be a big upgrade. So those things are all in place. And that's why, again, the quarterback thing is just so fascinating because they can go a few different ways with it.

But, you know, they have to get it. They have to get it right. And also, I didn't even think about the fact that Pat Schumer and Teddy Bridgewater have a relationship. Schumer was in Minnesota as the interim coordinator after North Turner left in 2016. And then was the offensive coordinator full time in 2017 when Teddy Bridgewater was hurt. So they're familiar with one another, even if they didn't work together in the regular season that much. So a lot of those connections make sense. How Parsons fits into this mix?

I'm trying to picture it. and I'm just wondering how they're going to use a guy like that on third down. I know that's way too far down the road, but he's so comfortable moving forward and blitzing. Do they want to have some more five-man pressures if they're going to use him? But dropping him just athletically into the rest of that group, I mean, that's fireworks. Even if they don't know exactly what his role would be as a rookie,

I certainly would want to watch it. So that's good enough for me. That's my thing with it too, right? Yeah, it's a great point. And, you know, and look, their linebacker play last year was serviceable. You had Alexander Johnson and Josie Jules. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, they were, they were fine. To me, this would be just a matter of like, listen, this guy, the, the athleticism, the athlete that you would get to add to that defense, you know, again, I think it's possible that they go offensive tackle at that position just, you know, to guard against the Juan James, not being able to kind of stay healthy or whatever the case might be. be. But I just am intrigued by the idea of adding another big defensive playmaker and just seeing what McBanjew can do with it. I totally understand that. Nick Cosmiter, thank you very

much for the time, my friend. Really appreciate it. We'll catch up soon. Thanks, I appreciate it. All right. On the clock at number 10, the Dallas Cowboys, a team that has a lot of offensive talent, not a lot of defensive talent, obviously a team that everyone has a ton of eyes on every single year. and now they're picking in the top 10 to help us make this choice. Athletic Cowboys writer, John Machota. John, how you doing, man? I'm doing well. Yeah, you gave me some interesting picks to choose from there.

I wasn't expecting certain players to be on the board there. So this is a little bit different than some of the previous mock drafts I've done. So this is fun. All right. So the 10th overall pick, who are you going with? I mean, Rishon Slater. And I know that there's a lot of Cowboys fans that aren't going to like them drafting another offensive player. But last year for several reasons, one just being the Cowboys alone, not having Tyrant Smith for all but two games, not having Lyle Collins for the entire season.

Tyrant Smith is a guy who hasn't played a full 16 game season since 2015. And you saw how bad things were in Dallas when you didn't have your starting offensive tackles. And you saw how bad things were for the Kansas City Chiefs in the Super Bowl when they didn't have their starting offensive tackles. And I understand you paid Dak all this money. and so he should have to shoulder more of the load than maybe in years past, but I also would be trying to keep him as healthy as possible. So when Patrick Sertan was off the board, I feel like that's the odds on favorite to be their pick.

And there's a lot of people that presented with the same situation probably would have taken J.C. Horn. And I could see the Cowboys possibly doing that too. I don't think Rashon Slater is going to be there. But if he's there, that pick makes a lot of sense to me because he can play some guard. If Tyrant Smith's healthy and if Tyrant Smith misses games like he has been doing, then you've got a guy that can play left tackle. I'm glad you said that if Sir Tam was on the board, you'd probably take him.

Because if not, I think Cowboys fans might inside a riot. So that makes sense to me. So in your mind, does the Tynaseki signing, which I assume was just made with insurance in mind, you're signing that guy to prevent the situation from last year from happening again. Does having him on the roster affect your thinking at all for how much depth they would need along the offensive line? Nah, they've been doing that the last few years. They did Cam Irving last year, Cam Fleming, the two years before that. they probably would have brought Cam Fleming back if Jason Garrett would have stayed head coach,

but then he ended up going over and joining Garrett with the Giants. But they've always been bringing in swing tackle, veteran swing tackles on like one-year deals to fill in in those situations. Taking Slater would be one of those things where, hey, Tyrant Smith stays healthy and Lyle Collin stays healthy. Well, then you got another guy that Dane Bruegler compares often to Zach Martin potentially playing at left guard. You got Zach Martin right guard and Tyler Beaudish is your center. and you've got an offensive line that should keep deck Prescott upright, and there's a lot of weapons to take advantage of there. But I get it.

It's not helping your defense. And you'll probably have to draft a corner in the second round. And those guys aren't going to be as attractive as a Sertan or a J.C. Horn. And so maybe that's end up the direction the Cowboys go. When I seen Slater there, I was like, I can't pass up on this. I love it because I love the idea of making a strength stronger. I've always enjoyed that, even if I'm sure there's.

plenty of evidence that you shouldn't do that. But if you think that he's going to be a guy that can start for you at guard until Tyrone Smith is gone and then bump out to tackle, I think that's a value proposition that's worth making. And I also believe that if you don't love the other corners or there are system fit questions, everything else, then if you pick the best player, if you think he's going to make your team great, if you can have the best offense in the league because you have the best offensive line again, I don't mind that.

I think betting on offense is always a good proposition, even if that offensive line's already pretty good. Let me ask you a quick question on that. How do you feel about the difference between corner and offensive tackle in terms of being able to find value there after the first round? Because I feel like it drops off significantly at offensive tackle, whereas maybe you can still find some corners later on. Now, I know that's a difference between a blue chip like Sartan or Horn, but I feel like you have a better chance of finding a decent corner maybe at 44 than you do at offensive tackle. It depends on what you want. I was talking to GM yesterday. and I mentioned the idea that offensive tackle was pretty deep in this class,

and he said offensive line is deep in this class. That's the difference because there are some guys that just aren't set up to play tackle, even if they play tackle in college, whether it's because of measurables or athletic traits, whatever. So there are some people who believe that the tackle class is deep. Some people believe that the guard class is deep, and if you are pushing those guys at tackle, you're going to be in a bad way. So I think that's something to consider.

The corners, it depends on what you like with those guys, right? I think Sartan is a really, really safe bet. I know that's the famous last words, but he's so technically sound. You watch him play. There are so few holes in his game. There are major questions in my mind about some of those other guys that there aren't about him.

The Caleb Farley medical concerns are huge. And with J.C. Horn, I'm wondering if people think that's a press man corner. We have Dan Quinn as our defensive coordinator. And that's why I wanted to ask you, have you, have you gotten any insight from talking to Quinn. I'm sure you guys have about traits they're looking for in the secondary. I'm sure that's been a question that's come up. So we haven't. This hasn't been a great offseason.

Yeah, so this hasn't been a great offseason for access. So it's kind of going to bring that up because that to me is the number one thing I'm looking forward to in this draft is the changes at some certain positions as how they address them in the draft. Safety has been a position that the Cowboys just have not had a big value on. Now that Dan Quinn's there, maybe that changes a little bit. Not saying at 10, but maybe at 44. And so Quinn's background seems like it's going to be very similar to what Chris. Richard had when he was here. And Chris Richard was huge on the Seattle-type defensive backs.

And that's the guy six foot and above, the 32-inch, you know, arms or longer. And those are the guys like Horn and Sertan. And that absolutely seems like the two that would fit what Dan Quinn likes. And so I'm interested, though, to see that because we don't know, because we haven't got a chance to talk to Dan Quinn about how much he puts an emphasis on that. And obviously, he's going to have a big say in this draft. Jerry Jones has always let his coaches have a say in a draft, even to a fault. There's plenty of people that criticize, you know, Rod Marinelli wanted Taco Charlton, a lot of fans, a lot of us wanted TJ Watt, you know, and they didn't, they didn't go that route.

And that obviously hurt them and puts them in a situation where they still need a right side edge rusher to this day. But no, this is going to be interesting because we're going to learn a lot about Dan Quinn in the next week just by what they do in this draft. But yeah, to answer your question, I just think that those two corners make a ton of sense. If that's what Dan Quinn looks at and it's like, hey, we got Trayvon Diggs right now. let's get another big corner to put on the other side of the field. One of those two at 10 are going to be there, and I can certainly see them going in that direction. How would you stack up the defensive needs after a corner? That's a good question.

To be honest with you, I don't even know that corners their number one need. It just has become the number one in this draft because this isn't a draft class that has the elite tackle. It doesn't have the elite edge rusher. I mean, just the fact that there's not going to be one of those positions taken in the top 10, most likely, is just so, you know, it's not like it's been in the past. It's very uncommon. And so because of that, corner just makes the most sense there. But believe me, if they're sitting there and there was an edge rusher that, you know,

Aziz Olajari or Quitty Pay that the coaching staff was in love with and they were like, no, this is going to be our guy. And then he's going to be here for five, 10 years on the right side, getting after the quarterback, then obviously that guy's in play at 10. I just don't see them. I don't think the value is there for those guys. I think those guys may become more into play. If a quarterback's available there and there's a team like New England at 15

that really wants to get up to 10 to get that quarterback, Cowboys move back to 15, I could see one of them edge rushers be coming into play because I don't think Horn or Sertan would make it to 15. So then all of a sudden you've got to change your thinking there. So if they stay at 10, I think Sertan or Horn make a little bit more sense in one of those edge rushers. If the corners aren't there and they really do think we can move back and get an edge rusher, maybe there's somebody who wants one of the past catchers,

even if the quarterback is gone, let's say J.1 Waddle sitting there, somebody that's intrigued by the speed, all that other stuff. But there aren't that many other shiny objects that you'd assume people really, really want. Maybe Slater is that for somebody. Maybe a team that's really desperate and sees him as a tackle says, we need to go get this guy because there's a drop off after him in Sewell. All of this stuff is speculative. But it just feels like if there's not the corner they want there, they would be well served by moving back, which I did not allow you to do it, to be fair. Yeah, and I wouldn't have in that scenario. I like the options that were there.

I mean, like I said, I really like Slater a lot. So it made, it made sense there. But the trading back thing, it's just been a really, it's been a popular topic down here because of the fact that if one of these quarterbacks are there, or as you mentioned, one of those wide receivers, that there are going to be teams that are going to be interested and why not move back and gain some extra picks. I will say this, though. I caution against that because at the end of the day, this draft, the final decision still comes down to Jerry Jones. and I think it's important to remember this season the Cowboys are coming off of. Yeah, especially at defense. Right.

On defense, it's a first year head coach. Well, he's in a second year now. First year didn't go well at all. First year with the new defensive coordinator, Dak Prescott's coming back from injury. They feel like they have the pieces to certainly win a bad division. I just, unless a team blows them away with future draft picks, I don't see this team really wanting to move back in the first round out of 10 when,

if there's a player they really like. because I feel like, even though we say this every year, they feel like they're not far away if everyone's healthy. You know, if you have Tyrant Smith, Lyle Collins, Dak Prescott, those offensive weapons healthy. They feel like you had a couple pieces on defense. You get a lift by moving back to some of the stuff you had more success with on defense because Dan Quinn's going to be a lot more like Rod Marinelli than Mike Nolan was.

They feel like they could maybe catch some lightning in a bottle there. So I would just keep that in the back of your mind in any trade back scenarios because if you trade back, yeah, you might be gaining some good picks in the future. But I think this team, this group is having 10 picks in this draft is really looking to improve the 2021 Cowboys. Let me be clear. I think there's a better chance they trade up in the top 10 than trade back out of the top 10. I just think it might be the prudent move to move back if one of those guys isn't there. That being said, I think Jerry's urgency is about as high as it could possibly be.

This is a conversation for another day. but it almost feels like last year being a wash for McCarthy is very bad for the long-term projections because he's going to get an excuse for what happened last year, and I'm not entirely sure that he deserves one. But that's what happens when you're starting quarterback gets hurt. Right, right. No, and there's plenty of them. And whether you want to talk about COVID, even though obviously Washington navigated it to win the NFC East, but there's COVID talk, putting in a new defense during a year of a pandemic wasn't a good idea.

the fact that, and this is just my feelings in this, if you're an offensive-minded head coach like Mike McCarthy, to me, the most important hire you make on your staff is your DC. And for that to fail after one season, that doesn't look great. It wasn't even one season. It was like five games in.

Like, well, this isn't going to work. I mean, it was obvious from the start. Right. There were times during games where there was just some decisions,

several of which that left you just scratching your head, that made you think, like, is this the right direction? So, no, there's going to be a lot of things that he'll get a pass for because of the year that they were on, not having DAC, the injuries and things like that. But he's not going to get the pass this season coming up. And so, you know, they got the defensive coordinator that they

wanted in Dan Quinn. They expect Dak to be back. They expect Tyron and Lyle to be back. They expect to have another good draft. If there was one positive from last season, it was their draft, be able to get CD Lamb, to be able to get Trayvon Diggs in the second round, a guy they they considered in the first round. There was just some pieces that fell to them where they didn't really seemed like they were reaching. They were taking best player available. The draft seemed like it went well. So it'll certainly serve them while to have another strong draft this year. I was going to say that it feels like it's a precarious spot because the window for this offense is slowly closing. You look at the amount of money that they've spent. Obviously,

we're in the post-dack contract era now. But then I was looking at it. Tyrone Smith is 30 years old. It seems like he's 45 years old. I cannot believe that he's been there for that long and he's still only 30. It's remarkable. But the health questions, everything else, I completely understand. They feel like they need to hit on this right now because this is their chance. They legitimately, if things break right health-wise, could have a top two or three offense in the NFL based on the personnel that they have. And that's your chance. That's your shot. So I get it. They also bring in Mike McCarthy and not even interview a single college coach because it's about winning now. That's why I never thought that Descott wasn't going to get signed. They were not going to go the young quarterback route.

It's the window is certainly right now for sure. Awesome. John Machota, thank you very much, my friend. Appreciate you taking the time. Anytime, man. I enjoyed it.

All right. That's it. That was extremely fun. I'm very glad that we did that. It had a chance to be a logistical nightmare, but we figured it out. It was okay. I'd love talking about all of the considerations and the long-term planning and how

the pieces all fit together. Team building stuff is great. It's so good to be able to get insight from people who think about, talk about and write about these teams all of the things. time. Speaking of that, if this is not an ad for you to subscribe to The Athletic, I don't know what is. You can get these sort of things every single day from all of these writers. It's invaluable insight. You cannot follow the league in a real way without being a subscriber. Theathletic.com slash football show. Please go check it out. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast

platform of choice. I'd really appreciate you guys doing that. Also, again, live show, round one of the draft Thursday night. Coming to you guys after the 15th pick, me and Nate will be together. Lindsay Jones and Dane Brugler will be joining us periodically throughout the show, dropping in and out to provide some insights like only Dane can. Lindsay will be talking about some things from the team side,

everything else. I know we're going to have a lot of fun. It would mean a lot if you guys would come spend the time with us. We will be back on Tuesday with Dane and Lance Zerline having a big picture conversation about this draft class overall. Lindsay and I will spin it forward a little bit, ask some questions that we're looking forward to with the draft. Until then, though, please enjoy your weekend. Really appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.