The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Top 10 offenses with Sheil Kapadia, a Bengals team visit with Paul Dehner Jr. & discussing Joe Burrow’s progress with Cincinnati’s OC Brian Callahan

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

With Week 1 right around the corner, The Athletic’s Sheil Kapadia joins Robert Mays to discuss the NFL’s top 10 offenses. Then, Bengals reporter Paul Dehner Jr. chats with Robert about Cincinnati���s offensive line, the questions on defense and much more. Finally, Bengals OC Brian Callahan talks about Joe Burrow’s progress this camp and how the team is looking to grow the offense around him this season.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Great show for you guys today. Our Bengals writer from the athletic Paul Deiner is going to be joining us a little bit later. We visited in Cincinnati after, let's say, a rosier practice than some of the ones that had come earlier in training camp for the Bengals. It's looking a little bit better over there. We also chatted with Brian Callahan, the Bengals offensive coordinator, about some of the things they've been working with Joe Burrow this offseason. Some of the reasons that they're feeling a little bit of.

better there in Cincinnati after Joe has gotten comfortable with that knee and just really enjoy chatting with him and wanted you guys to be able to catch some of that conversation. Before any of that, though, I'm very excited to welcome my friend who it has been too long since he was on this show. And that's why we are doing this, Shio Coppaea. How are you doing, man? I'm doing well. It was good to see you in person in Westfield, Indiana, where I had never been before,

saw you on the sideline there. Now I get to see you on Zoom. So I guess football season must be nearing. We are getting there. It was so fun to see you and Mike and our Colts guys and Joe Persson. We had a nice little crew there at Colts practice. And we were talking. I was like, God, you haven't been on the podcast in way too long.

And that's why we're here. So we talked about offensive play callers with Nate. We've talked about new quarterbacks. But we haven't just done a podcast or a conversation about some of the best offenses in the NFL or the teams we think will have the best offenses in the NFL. And you as part of the expansive preview work, you're doing at the athletic. For people who have not gone and checked it out,

She'll rank the top 10 offenses we're going to talk about. Rank the top 10 defenses. He has an entire, essentially, preview guide on the athletic right now. He's doing some notebooks from the places that he's visited. So if you're not checking out what Shield has been working on, please go do that. But I wanted to dig in to the offenses. You rank the top 10 ones earlier this month,

and we're just going to go through your list and talk about it. So before we get started, I want to talk about some of the teams outside the top 10. You ranked every offense. We're going to only do the top 10. I want to talk about some of the teams just outside the top 10. Among the teams that you didn't have one through 10, who do you think could potentially finish in the top three this year? Oh, the top three.

Okay, that's a good question. I'm looking at this now. I don't think I would have to squint too hard to see a scenario where the, let's say, the San Francisco 49ers potentially, finishing the top three? I think that part of the research I did for the playbook preview guide you mentioned was I wanted to look at rookie quarterbacks over the last 10 years. Like how likely is it?

Because we all get excited, right? I mean, we all watch the preseason games and we're like, these guys are going to come in and take over the league. And so I wanted to see how likely is it that a rookie comes in and plays well right away. And so I just looked at the last 10 years. I looked at guys who actually played. So I think I did 300 dropbacks. And it's pretty rare.

I mean, you're talking about like a one in four chance that a guy is just going to be above average. I mean, I mean, the median rookie season is around like the 21st, 23rd ranked quarterback. So I guess I'm contradicting myself, but let's say four rookie quarterback start this year. I feel like Trey Lance is probably going to be the guy who's most well positioned to succeed right away with Kyle Shanahan. And I'm excited about what he could look like in that run game. You know, certainly that could be a top three rushing offense right, right away if he's in there. and then you look at, you know, what they were able to do with Garapolo when he was healthy a couple years ago in the passing game. So I think that's the one that I would go with among the ones that weren't in the top 10.

I think that's totally fair. And I agree with you. And I think the difference is when you're thinking about the rookie quarterback aspect of it, think about where most rookie quarterbacks are dropped into. These are teams that are usually picking in the top 10. If you pick a quarterback in the first round, you're probably bad. Your supporting cast is probably bad. And we've talked about this in regard to Trail Lance several different times. I think these are the best circumstances of rookie quarterback, a first-round rookie quarterback, could face.

And I don't even know how long because Mahomes didn't play. Right. So Mahomes would have been the answer, but he only played the last game of the season. I can't remember a team that went up and got a guy in the first round who has a potential to play, I don't know, more than 50% of his games as a rookie, that was dropped into circumstances that look like the ones that Trey Lance faces right now in San Francisco. Yeah, I think you're right. I'm trying to think of another one off the top of my head

when we look at the rookies who have been successful right away. You know, Herbert was certainly up there. He wasn't in a great situation. I know we'll get to them last year. You know, Dak Prescott had a very good rookie season, but that wasn't, you know, I guess you could look at the offensive line there, but that was a little bit fluky, right? They weren't, it wasn't like they were drafting him to start.

right away. Russell Wilson had to go in and win the job. You could say that he had the defense, but I think you're right. I mean, when you look at it, if the offensive line can stay healthy, the way they scheme things up to help the quarterback there, what they're going to have with the run game. I mean, I keep trying to come back to when Garapolo has been healthy, the offense has actually been pretty good. But then I just keep thinking about Shanahan. And everything he said, I feel like he's just salivating to get the quarterback involved in the run game. I totally agree. You guys have talked about. I'm just like, is he going to be able to, is he going to be able to like keep himself in check

or is he just going to be like, listen, I have these run schemes drawn up. We've been trying to, we've been trying to incorporate these. We've been thinking about them all offseason. I just want to see what they look like. We're going with the rookies. So that's what really stands out with Lance. And I think what would be the most exciting aspect of it. I mean, I don't think he has to be this amazing passer right away for the offense to be really good.

he can be like a, you know, mediocre to slightly above average passer, and they can have one of the best run games in the NFL, and all of a sudden you're talking about an offense that could really work. You saw that play through the end of the preseasoning game, and I don't want to get too enamored with one big play, but just the distance on that throw. It's a 60-yard throw in the air, and that ability to really sell that fake

and then put the ball all the way back across the field. That's a throw just very few human beings can make, and that's a dynamic he gives them. But I also think you could argue, if you look at the skill position talent, this might be the best group of skill position players they've had since Kyle Shanahan has been there. Debo Samuel was healthy right now. He is stepping into week one without any injury concerns.

That is a step forward for him. I think Brandon Ayuk is like legitimately a star. When they drafted him, a lot of people framed it as another yak guy with the ball in his hands similar to Debo. He was doing so many things against man coverage, against press coverage, as a real receiver last year. But he also, if you just pitch it to him, or hand. it off to him, he can make something happen. So those two guys with Kittle, with Rahim Moster, and with a guy like potentially Trey Sermon, this might be the most dynamic group they've had before we even get to Trey Lance.

Yeah, and it's, and the point in time, like the snapshot that they're in right now is also very interesting because Trent Williams is not getting any younger, right? You went out, you got Alex Mack at center. And it's so it's like, well, you know, how patient do you really want to be here? or do you want to be one of those teams that say, hey, we've got the quarterback on the rookie contract. Let's go ahead and try to win right now. So we'll see how the next two to three weeks play out for them. But, you know, in my opinion, it's probably, I'm trying to think if I'm overselling this.

But just in my like personal head, it's like, you know, the most exciting storyline in the league is whether Lance plays right away. And if he does, what that looks like. I think that bringing up the offensive line in the age is a really good point. Because if there is a crack in the foundation here, it's the age of that. offensive line and it's the lack of depth on the offensive line. They drafted Aaron Banks in the second round this year. He's hurt already. So he's going to miss a few weeks.

And I think that it was even up for grabs whether he would start at right guard like they expected him to. So you have that hole and really not a lot behind it. I mean, if Matt goes down, this team is in trouble again with who's going to be their center. If Trent Williams were to miss any time, this isn't a team with a ton of options to tackle. So they are thin at various parts of this roster.

And I think that's also worth paying attention to. All right. Let's get to your top 10 here. Let us start with a place that you just visited recently, which I want to talk to you about, and that is the Cleveland Browns. You have them 10th. They finished 9th in DVOA last season on offense.

What do you think is preventing them from taking a step from where they were a year ago? I mean, I think they're, you know, I think the most likely scenario is that they're in a similar place to where they were last year. The thing that's preventing them, I'm just sort of wait and see a little bit with, Baker Mayfield. It's not, I wish I could come on here and have a great take that we could promote on social, that Shield came out either crushing Baker Mayfield or loving Baker Mayfield, but I don't. I'm sort of like, I liked a lot of what I saw last year. If you're telling me he's going to,

you know, have to sort of match one of these top tier quarterbacks in a playoff game or really put the team on his shoulders. I still kind of want to see it a little bit, whether it's consistency, efficiency, whatever. But I do think there's a chance that they do take a big step forward. I mean, there are certain, there are valid reasons for it, right? I mean, it'll be a second season in the scheme. That's like a very simple one that coaches sometimes say, and you're like, isn't that big of a deal? But I do think it's probably a big deal for him.

And then the other one is O'Dell Beckham Jr. I know some people might be tired of hearing about O'Dell Beckham Jr. But, you know, I can't get over the fact that the guy's only 28 years old, that he's going to be playing on an offense with what I think we both think is a smart offensive coach and that if he can stay healthy, like I'm not really. ready to give up on Odell yet. I know a lot of people are ready to give up on him. I'm not ready to give up on him. So if you tell me that Baker Mayfield's a little more comfortable and all of a sudden, Beckham, maybe he's not the guy he was with the Giants, but it's like a legit threat

on the perimeter for them and producing more explosive plays, then yeah, they absolutely could take a leap higher than where I have them there at number 10. I have a ton of faith in their run game. This is a team that has maybe the best offensive line in the league. I think they're going to run the ball really well. And they showed a real ability. to be diverse in the run game last year. I think the things that Bill Callahan folded in. And that's the important part of having those run, those just varied run concepts and not just being a wide zone team, like the place that Kevin Sofansky came from is that you have an answer to however teams are defending you. It just makes you more versatile. It makes you, you can go

into your bag no matter what types of fronts you're playing against. And I think them starting from that point now, rather than finding those runs over the course of the season, is a really good thing for that. I also just think that we can't talk enough about Beckham at what he brings because it's so tempting to look at the success they had last year and say, well, they did that with O'Dow Beckham, like how good could he possibly be? If you look at, just picture in your mind some of the concepts we've seen some really good offenses over the last couple years. Think about how many times you've seen Ryan Tannahill do a play action fake, take two steps, turn around, and throw a little glance route to AJ Brown coming over the middle of the field. Think about how many times you see that in the

Niners' offense. I just watched 10 Brandon Ayuk ones just now as I was watching Brandon Ayuk highlights. They didn't have that in their offense last year. O'Dell Beckham can give you that. He is that guy that can take an eight-yard completion for 25, 30 yards. It's just a layer of explosiveness that they were missing. And as more and more defenses are going to try to put a roof over teams and not let them attack down the field, you need those guys who can create explosive plays out of thin air. And he is that guy. I just think that he is so pivotal to them taking another step. And we're talking about it a lot.

His name comes up all the time on the show in that regard. But I think that it should when we're talking about what this team's ceiling is, because that's what it is. It is completely dependent on what he gives them. Absolutely. Yeah, I think they're a high floor, high floor offense for sure. Like you mentioned, the run game's going to be there. And the quarterback is positioned to succeed with the offensive line and the other weapons.

And then it is an interesting question, what can take them to that next level? And, you know, I don't think you have to overthink it. It could be Beckham. it could be just improved quarterback play that could take them to kind of that next tier. You have the Rams at number nine. I think that's totally fair. Again, a team that we've talked about so much recently. I'm curious about what your feelings about them and what you're thinking about in regard to them right now.

What do you want to see differently from that offense than what we've seen from the last couple of years? What does Matthew Stafford give them, essentially? Yeah, I don't think they have to really overthink it. You know, normally when a coach so blatantly just kind of says my quarterback is the issue that I usually like push back against this, but then it's the eye test. And I'm like, well, yeah, I was kind of watching your team and I thought the quarterback was the issue as well. And, you know, they still, I think, produced a top 10 offense three times in four years with Jared Gough. I did, that was one thing

when I was doing the research. I was like, wait a minute. Is that true? Because it feels like they've been much more inconsistent. So if you're doing that with Jared Gough and now you're bringing in Matthew Stafford, you know, I think the two areas just statistically that I looked at, one was play action. He has been an unbelievable play action passer over the last two seasons. I know he only played what half the games in 2019 and then last year, but just going by the advanced stats on what he did off play action, like a top five efficiency passer in the NFL. And then the other big one is the one the I test supports. And that's just what happens when the play breaks down. I mean, Jared Goff, we've seen it for years. He's going to crumble under pressure. All the statistics back that up. And you look at his

performance, a clean pocket and a muddy pocket. Well, Matthew Stafford brings something totally different in that area. And again, the numbers back it up there too. So those are the two things I'm looking at. I know I was listening to you and Nate and talking about some of the changes they could implement with Matthew Stafford. And that's true too. I think it opens up some stuff. But I'm almost of the feeling like McFay doesn't necessarily have to really overthink this. You know, I think a lot of the things they did, they had in place put the quarterback in position to succeed. And at times golf did succeed, there was just sort of that limited ceiling where now, hey, if things break down, if you need to make a last second check at the line of scrimmage,

when the play clock's under 15 and it's all in the quarterback's hands, if the quarterback needs to make a second reaction play, like those are all things that Matthew Stafford can do. And you can tell by their moves in the offseason that they want to push the ball downfield and be a little bit more vertical. So that's another element I would expect to see as well. I feel like people have said this a bunch. I totally agree with all of that. I think people have said this a bunch. It's like, well, why would we expect something different from Matthew Stafford at age 33, however old Matthew Stafford is? And when you look at the rearview mirror of the last two years, that offense under Darryl Bevel and how much they were pushing the ball deep

on play action and how good he looked in that system. Do you know where Matthew Stafford ranked in air yards per attempt in 2018 the year before Darrow Beville got there? I think they were trying to do a lot of run after the catch stuff there, right? That year. 31st. Okay. There you go. 31st. The only person lower than him is Derek Carr. He was behind Drew Brees. Oh, my gosh. It's, it is amazing. What a waste. That's exactly what it feels like, right? You just look at what that offense was under Jim Bob Cooter for those few years. And you have this guy who is one of the most physically gifted throwers of the football of the last 50 years. And you're having to run this dink and dunk offense. And that is, if you're trying to build the case for why, at age 33, which as a 33-year-old man, I sincerely appreciate that Matthew Stafford might not have reached his peak yet where we're all getting there.

I'm going to be 34 in six day or eight days, so I got to be really clinging on to this. So that's where it starts to me, is that we've slowly seen the pieces kind of fall into place of what can turn him into that guy over the last couple years. Now does it all fall into place, right? Like Carson Palmer was in his mid-30s, when he almost won an MVP and looked like a completely different quarterback in his last act

with the Cardinals. I think this is a similar situation. I think it could be a similar key that could unlock the guy that Matthew Stafford has always, this is the guy he's always supposed to have been, but for whatever reason, he just never was able to get there. And it's not like the reasons are hard to find. He's averaging 6.7 air yards per throw in an offense that doesn't make sense with a guy with his talents. Yes, I am a sucker for the narrative of, like, a player in their mid-30s has a chance to reshape their entire legacy.

And I think that's what this is. You know, he, he's at a point where he could play, what, two, three, four more years and just look like, like we could totally rethink how we look at his career when it's over. I think that is the ceiling here. And listen for McVeigh, too. I mean, McVeigh, we know he's got the keys to that franchise. He's not going anywhere. but at the same time, this is a very big swing that you're taking. And you are, you know, he's earned the reputation, I think, as a very bright offensive coach.

But now you took this big swing. All right, now you have to deliver and show that you can create the system around this new quarterback. I just feel like it's going to work. You know, I think their defense could take a step back. But I do think their offense, you know, certainly could finish even much higher than I have them here at number nine. Are you a little bit concerned about some of the moving pieces along the offensive line or losing Cammakers? or do you think those are ancillary enough where the foundation is strong enough to overcome that stuff?

Yeah, the Acres thing, I mean, it hurts, but I feel like, you know, they can be okay there with the scheme and the other guys they have. Certainly the offensive line is going to be a factor, you know, not using, I think, any of their draft picks on an offensive lineman even for depth this last season. So if you do suffer some injuries there and you have an old left tackle, so that could be the case,

even though he's still playing at a high level. Sure, that is something that could kind of torpedo their season. but I don't know. I just sort of trust the brain trust, the infrastructure there where they will be able to adjust and kind of figure it out, figure it out even if they do suffer some injuries. One more Matthew Stafford,

no before we move on. From 2016 to 2018, when Joe Bob Cooter was Office of Coordinator with 40 qualified quarterbacks in area arts, Matthew Stafford ranks 36th of those 40 quarterbacks. Over three seasons, this wasn't a one-year blip. Do you want to hear the quarterbacks below him on the list? Oh, my gosh, who is it?

This one's just making me sad. What a waste. Alex Smith. Oh, God. Joe Flacco, Drew Brees, San Bradford. That's it. Oh, my gosh. It's like if you had a Maserati and you just used it to drive around your neighborhood real slow.

You never want to be, you never want it to be, let me read you the other quarterbacks in this category and it's San Bradford. It's one of my favorite things. I go to it all the time. All right. I think we are high on the Rams with good reason. Another team we talked about on our new play caller show this week with Nate that you also seem pretty high on is the Seattle Seahawks who were eighth on this list. They were sixth in offense of DVOA last year, which if you consider the tone of the conversations around them in the second after the season, that might be surprising. In weighted, I'm sure they're a little bit lower.

Obviously, the trajectory was headed on the way down. What do you think a change in approach and a change in perspective on offense can give this team this year? Yeah, I couldn't believe it looking at. at the numbers last year because it did feel like it was a long stretch. And to be fair, they were not nearly as good down the stretch, whether that was facing the Rams three times, whether that was Russell Wilson not playing as well, offensive line injuries, whatever. But, you know, I've just seen Russell Wilson perform under different offensive coordinators. And like their offense is good pretty much every year. I mean, seven out of nine seasons,

they've had a top eight offense with Russell Wilson. So what does Shane Walser mean? I mean, I think you don't have to read between the lines too hard to look at what Pete Carroll was thinking. And it's still, I've always said being offensive coordinator for Pete Carroll, like when I was covering the team out there, and whether it was Darrell Bevel or, you know, offensive coordinators getting crushed, it's like, this is a different situation when you are an offensive coordinator for Pete Carroll. He is telling, he wants you to play with maximum efficiency. He wants you to run the ball and he wants you to hit plays downfield. Like, you have to do those three things or he's going to be upset with you. at the end of the game. So I think with Waldron, you know, a lot of it, you know, certainly whether

it's play action, moving the pocket for Russell Wilson, I think they need answers in the quick game. You know, I think you looked at it at the second half of last season when teams were playing too high coverages, they just did not have answers. Now, whether that was Wilson not taking the answers that were there for him or them not being there schematically, that's just reinforced by the numbers that, you know, those teams were playing too high and saying, all right, go ahead, string together these long drives against us. And they couldn't do it. They were really reliant on the big place. And then, you know, a lot of it comes back to Carroll because I think that Wilson had a couple games there where he turned the ball over a bunch.

And after that, if you look at it, like he was not willing to take shots into tight windows. I think no quarterback attempted fewer tight window throws than he did. And so I think he was playing a little bit conservative with that in his head. So I don't know exactly what it's going to look like. You know, I think if they can get those answers in the quick game and some more stuff off of play action, I think that will help them. And I think there will be ups and downs. And I think they're very intriguing because if this doesn't work out, like it feels like this offseason was setting themselves up for next off season

with the Russell Wilson trade stop and whether this thing is coming to a head. So I do think they're very intriguing. I just feel like, you know what, if I had to bet whether this is going to be a top 10 offense in terms of efficiency at the end of the season, I'm just going to say yes, because usually it is and it doesn't matter the supporting cast or the offensive coordinator. Look at some of the numbers. that the two high stuff is so interesting. Russ Wilson between week 9 and 17 through one touchdown four interceptions

and a 75.7 pass rating against two high defenses. Those are zones. 246. Okay. And I've had so many conversations over the last couple weeks about where defense in the NFL is going. And now that we have this world where the Fangio Staley world exists. And that is the going defensive philosophy. People have put it different ways.

I've heard put a roof over you. That's what Staley says. You do umbrella coverage and then dome quarters. There's a lot of different ways people have been referring to it. And I'm going to talk about this a little bit later on a different show, but you have to be willing to take what's there. And that might sound simple, but it's kind of a staring contest between offensive coaches and defensive coaches

and quarterbacks to a certain extent. Because these defenses now are playing into the nature of the people that they're playing against. they want you to get frustrated and bored with being able to take these little chunks over and over again. And I think Russell Wilson is the perfect quarterback to tempt into that. You want to make him take it and he's just not willing to. He wants to bite it off all at once. They want those everything all at once plays.

And I think figuring out ways to kind of curtail that a little bit, like you said, is going to go a big way into this offense becoming one that's tailored to attack what modern defenses look like. Yeah, the defensive philosophy thing is so interesting because I remember when I went out and covered the Seahawks for those two years. Now, they were single high, obviously, playing cover three, but just talking to Pete Carroll about his defensive principles, it was the same thing. It was do not get beat over the top.

That was every cornerback, every drill. That was the only thing. Like, I remember watching them, and they would give up, you know, like an eight-yard slant, right? And they would tackle the guy, and they would all be, you know, fist-pound, and high fives after that. Okay, go ahead. Do that, you know, go do that 10 more times. And so it just makes so much sense, right, as a defensive philosophy. Now, some of these quarterbacks you face like Drew Brees, and he's like, yeah, sure, I'll do that

10 in a row and I'll score a touchdown every drive and your offense will never get the ball and we'll win that way. But it's obviously a harder way to play. And I think, you know, teams are going to see that from last year. Now, not every team's going to have the personnel of the Rams or some of the other teams they faced down the stretch. But yeah, that is what they're going to need to find answers to for sure. Well, that's the problem is that even if other teams don't have the personnel, if teams look at what the Seahawks struggled against last year, that's already going to push you to a too high world.

Then you combine that with the fact that the multiplication factor of how many more teams are going to do this is insane. If you look at the numbers last year, I think two teams in the NFL ran middle of the field open two high shells on more than 80% of the snaps. Rams and the Broncos. That's it. So the only two teams in the entire league.

Now you have Joe Barry coming from the Rams to the Packers to run a similar system. You have Sean Desai running a Fangio style system with the Bears. You have Aaron Glenn in Detroit, who's going to run a ton of too high stuff after where he played for Fangio and did a lot of that stuff in New Orleans. You have Brand Staley now at the Chargers. We could go from two to eight easily, just instantly. And that may not seem like a lot.

but that's 400% as many teams doing this just as a baseline before you even consider how you should attack the Seahawks. So that is going to be their challenge because I think that the league is just going to a place that is designed to stop what the Seahawks offense looked like for the first half of 2020. And the first thing Carol said after the season, I believe, was I would like to see fewer too high looks next year. And that's why he thinks, and he said this, you know, he's our time. articulated this, that if they can run the ball effectively and often and just cash teams on the ground, that he's going to force them into single high looks. I don't know, you know, I don't know that that's the case when you, when you hear a lot of these new defensive coordinators talk, but like that's their philosophy going into this season. So I think they're going to be,

there are going to be some bumps in the road. There are going to be some meetings. There are going to be some Russell Wilson frustrations. And, and we will see how it goes. I went out looking for an answer and asking people about, all right, how do you attack these coverages? I went out looking for an answer of like, oh, these certain types of routes are really good against them. And we can figure out ways to sneak our passing game past these types of defenses. And everyone I've talked to, it's some version of, we just have to run the ball. And it's such a depressing, not fun answer.

But if you look at the teams that have had success against the Rams or that did last year, they were teams that were able to run the ball. And it's just so funny that I don't think running the ball, is going to be the most important thing in football. I still think throwing is more efficient than running all of that. But it is funny that now as we creep out of that one high world, that running the ball is going to be an important principle for some of the best offenses in the league.

I just think how cyclical it is is always so, so fun to watch. Absolutely. All right. Let's get to number seven here. You have the Dallas Cowboys. This was before two episodes of Hard Knocks, to be fair. All right. So how has that changed your viewpoint on this then?

Listen, I don't want to be mean, but is there a chance that Mike McCarthy, I don't know what your feelings are on him, and I don't want to be shaped by two episodes of Hard Knocks? But my feeling after watching this is that, oh my gosh, is he like one of the worst five coaches in the NFL? That's probably, again, taking it a step too far and maybe he'll have nothing to do with the offense. But this, you know, sometimes you watch Hard Knocks and a coach or something, your feelings of them change for the better. has not been the case with the Dallas Cowboys. And then you throw in Dak Prescott's injuries. And I'm just thinking like, shoot, I had them, you know, I felt really good when I made this list a few weeks ago about the Cowboys winning the NFC East. And, you know, I think I have them seventh here. And I thought, man, they easily could be top three or four. And if you're

looking at it just like objectively and looking at the pieces on, you know, on your depth chart and the play caller, you should probably still feel that way. But I got to tell you, HBO is, is putting some doubt into my mind here. Am I too mean? Am I being too mean? I don't think you're wrong. I really don't think you're wrong. So I was talking to Joe Barry today,

who is the defensive coordinator for the Packers, and we were talking about some other coaches he's worked with. And he said three times in his career, he's met someone. And within a couple days, other guys, it was less than that. It was ours. He just said, that guy's got it.

Like, that guy is going to be going places that guy is going to be one of the people in this league. And the three names he said to me were Mike Tomlin, Sean McVey, and Brandon Staley. Sometimes you just know. You see a guy, you talk to a guy, you meet him, and the way they see it is different. The opposite might be true. I was wondering how you were going to bring that around. Sometimes maybe you just know.

And maybe that's the case with Mike McCarthy. That is the thing that I keep coming back to with this. is that when you look, like exactly like you said, you look at the depth chart, and you look at where they've solved some problems theoretically this year, right? You go get a swing tackle in Tine Naseki. You draft another one in the fourth round.

Naseki hasn't looked great, and the rookie tackles hurt. Let's not pay attention to that right now. For the most part, the personnel is such that this could be a top five offense. We've seen them be a top five offense with Kellynne Moore. But are we worried enough about how static it looks, what Mike McCarthy is going to bring,

just the overall feeling around that team and in that building, because I was excited about this team at this time last year. And even over the first few weeks of Dak Prescott was playing, I still think the offense was a lot more stop and go and herky jerky and not as smooth as I wanted to look with this personnel. Maybe with C.D. Lam in year two and you're moving the receivers around a little bit. Kellmore talked about folding in, some more play action stuff that you saw from the Titans.

Those things are exciting, but I'm like you. I still have just this little voice in the back of my head being like, maybe they just don't have it with this group. Yeah, you look at it and it's like on paper, it should look a lot like two years ago, right, when they were second in offensive DVOA. Like the pieces are, now listen, the offensive line probably like you said,

it's not going to be as good, but they did add a little bit of depth there. So even if the offensive line is competent, like last year, I think football outsiders said they had the second most injured offensive line in the entire league. So you're just trying to be better than that. You know, if you can stay, if you can regress to the average in terms of health, and even in terms of competency.

Like I don't think, you know, I think Prescott's good enough and the receivers are good enough where if they have like a mediocre, you know, if they have like the 15th best offensive line, I still think the offense can be really good because I do believe in him if he's healthy. And you added C.D. Lamb was not on that 2019 team. Like you're loaded at wide receiver. It's just you start adding the things up. You know, is Mike McCarthy going to be more, you know, if things go back poorly in the beginning of the season. you're going to say, all right, you know, Kellermore, let me put my imprints on this offense. Is Dak Prescott's shoulder going to be 100% at the start of the season? And you just look at sort of the overall operation. And it doesn't leave you thinking, all right, you know, they've got everything together. They're going to get those tiny edges. And this has been the case since the beginning of land.

I mean, even when they hired McCarthy, I thought it was like, I think I might have said on this show. I feel like I said it on every show that it was one of the greatest, like, PR, campaigns in NFL history. I mean, I remember there was like a day in December during like the previous season where all of a sudden I'm reading seven articles about Mike McCarthy and I'm going, wait a minute, why am I reading about Mike McCarthy right now? So, you know, props to him and then he has the thing where he said he was lying about, you know, something, a Jerry Jones. Oh, he watched all of Dak's throws. He said he had. He couldn't even be bothered to watch all the tax. I mean, that feels like the minimum preparation for a job like that, doesn't it? It's

only like 500 plays. It doesn't take that long. You could do it like a day. Oh my gosh. So again, maybe this is much ado about nothing. Maybe he'll just be the head coach who makes some in-game decisions, you know, communicate stuff to Jerry Jones. Kellyn Moore will run the offense. Dak Prescott will be healthy and we'll be talking in, you know, November about, hey, remember when we were joking about this in August, but the offense is really good. Like I can totally see that scenario. You know, that would not surprise me. But I, I, I, do have some seeds of doubt now looking at this list I made uh you know three four weeks ago I think there are a lot of other teams in this grouping that I think their band of outcomes is smaller than the

cowboys if you told me the cowboys were the best offense in football if eight weeks into the season I believe it if you told me they were the 16th best offense in football eight weeks into the season I believe it and that is just not the case with some of the other really really good offenses in this group I just think that their floor is a little bit lower just because of some of the things that we're concerned about even if we're excited about the talent level All right. Let's get into some ones that I'm going to push back on here a little bit. Okay. You have the Tennessee Titans 6th.

I am concerned that is too high. I think that we might have passed the window with this being one of the most efficient offenses in the league. I think it might have passed. And for a couple different reasons. And I'm sure you have rebuttals to this. If they get hurt at all in their past catching group, this thing is done. Like if Julio goes down and we're looking at Josh Reynolds. and AJ Brown again.

And that's not a crazy thought, considering he's getting older, he's had trouble staying healthy. That is a problem to me. Also, you lose your play caller. And you have a running back coming off of, I don't know how many hundreds of touches he had last year.

It just feels like this is one of those situations where the Titans' offense in 2019, it was like a low-budget horror movie that you weren't expecting to be good. And it just totally blows you away. It's like, man, that was well done. Like, they just made the most. Ryan Tannahill is like that actor that fell out of favor in Hollywood and he gets cast in this movie and he's like, man, he was really good.

He should be in more stuff. And then two is good. And you're like, the sequel is solid, but not quite as good as the original. And then they keep making them. And even if the DNA is the same, they keep getting a little bit worse. I feel like this is Friday the 13th, three is what we're looking at with the 2021 Titans. It could be. It could be. You make valid points. I mean, to me, the big one is Arthur Smith. And it's so hard to know. I think certainly you look at it and it felt like he did an amazing job of just maximizing the talent on his roster, catering the scheme to it. I don't know. It's a tough question. Like, how hard is it when you're a, when you have a system in place and the pieces in place and it's worked really well for two years and you're an NFL coach to say, I'm just going to do, you know, do what he was doing. And we'll keep the train going. It might be really hard. I know some, you know, specific calls, sequencing,

setting something up in the first half or something you're going to do in the third quarter. I'm not, you know, trying to underrate any of those things. And so certainly they could take a step back. I just look at it. I'm going to assume Derek Henry is not human until he proves otherwise. Totally fair. I thought last year they were probably going to take a step back when you look at how many carries he had the previous year and the guy was an absolute monster. And I think their infrastructure, like the core thing they had in place of just we're going to run the football out with Derek Henry. We're going to keep you in single high coverages. And this was really interesting when I was doing my playbook again is that Tanna Hill splits versus single high versus too high were pretty different.

So all of a sudden, if you can't run the ball and teams are playing too high, maybe he's not as efficient. But I feel like if you're running it, you're keeping them in single high looks, play action. The scheme seems to work. And, you know, there's another side to the wide receiver thing. Like, let's say Julio plays 12 games, and you're giving me 12 games of A.J. Brown and Julio Jones on the outside, like, you know, good. Like, I think it's sort of, could be a pick your poison scenario if that outcome comes true. But I do think you're right.

They're probably kind of a high variance offense where they could be where I have them here, or they could certainly take a step back. If Julio stays healthy and they stay healthy in general, I think they could still be really good. And I'm curious, I don't know if you broke down in this granular of a way, how often did the play action dropbacks align with the single high and two high dropbacks? Because I assume they face more two high looks on third down when they couldn't use play action. So that's, there's a lot of pieces of the puzzle there. So, I mean, because you look at their numbers with and without play action, obviously there's a huge difference. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those two high looks happened when there wasn't the threat of them running the ball, which again, that's why all these efficiency numbers have so many things going on.

I will say if you're going to try to replicate an offensive system and approach and you swap out the offensive coordinator, the best thing you can do is bring back everyone else. And that's what they did. It's not as though Arthur Smith poached three or four assistants office staff to go with him to Tennessee. That didn't happen. Keith Carter, their offensive line coach, who did a lot of the run game work with Arthur Smith, still there. Todd Downing's still there for a reason. He was the one that they wanted to promote to do this. The quarterback coach is the same.

The receiver's coach is the same. They have that entire staff still intact. So I think that they're going to do as good a job as you possibly could after losing a guy like Arthur Smith. Because everyone else that combined to make this offense into what it is, for the most part, is still there. Yeah. And the Tanyhill question, it's like, you know, at some point, I feel like the guy deserves some credit. You know, like I understand he's been put in position to succeed. and, you know, they do things to help him out.

But, like, I don't know, the numbers are insane, like, over the last two years, just in terms of efficiency for him to be doing it at this stage in his career. I mean, he shreds the blitz. He stands in there, I think, as well as anyone and takes a hit and delivers on time. He can make plays with his leg. So the toughest quarterback in the league, I would be willing to say that. He's definitely in that conversation. And so we'll see.

You know, I am, it's very simple to just boil it down to it. Well, is losing the play call they're going to crush them? Losing the play call, they could crush them. I mean, there's a scenario where the Falcons are in this spot. Like, the Falcons could be the sixth best offense. That would not, like, totally stun me this year and the Titans going down. And then, you know, that's kind of the fun part when some of these guys switch teams where you're like, all right, wow, you know, not only did he do it here.

He did it here. Not only did he do it when he had a fully healthy offense. But, man, he lost his quarterback where his left tackle and he still did. Like, I always like the coaches, I don't know, more with less is the right term. But you know what I mean? where you're just like, listen, there's no doubt about it that this guy is maximizing the talent at his disposal. That's what Arthur Smith did the last two years. Like, there's no scenario where anyone can make an argument that if you replaced him with another play caller, their offense would

have been better. Like, that's not possible. That's not an argument anyone could make. So that absolutely is a scenario where they switch play callers and take a step back. I think that the way they grew and changed over those two years as well, just the amount of different things they folded in and understanding that, well, we have to be a little bit different because of X, their ability to understand their personnel and how to help out that personnel, even last year, right? They lose Luan. Your tackles are some combination of Thai-Sanbrilo,

David, Cuisenberry, and Dennis Kelly. How do you respond to that? You play with a lot more seven-man protections on those play-action throws. So you're just essentially saying, we know we have AJ Brown and Corey Davis. The way that we can help the other players on our team is to get those guys the only two out in routes and have our tight end stay in a block. We can still be explosive in this way.

Their willingness to lean into that was huge. It's the reason they could sustain that success. And I just think that self-awareness was so apparent at every single turn for that group. And you'd hope that even without Arthur Smith, that still exists because everyone else that watched those teams is still in the building and forming what this looks like. All right. This is a problem because I think everyone else in America would look at you having the Chargers at five and be like, this is nonsense. What are you doing? I am not that person.

Well, you picked the wrong podcast to come on if you want me to throw cold water on the Chargers offense. I know, I was going to say, you know, if they do play, if the Chargers do play really well, I want to be the leader of the bandwagon. If this thing tanks like it normally does, I'm pointing everyone to you, just so you know. Listen, it was really, Maze was all over. I was just trying to be a good podcast guest. So Daniel Popper, if you're listening, And I listened to his interview on here. I took it as a personal attack, you know, him poking holes in the offensive line depth. Popper, I took that as a personal attack on me.

But no, that's valid. And that had me feeling, you know, shoot, did I really rank them too highly? He was making valid points when he was on here with you. And then I saw the clip, I think it was just this morning of like the series that the, I don't know if you saw this, that the Chargers website is putting together. And like, you know, Staley's like, we're going to, you know, we're going to chuck it down field and have the best passing offense in the league and I'm like I'm back baby let's go they're going to be just fine I didn't get less excited watching that I will say that right now

that's right listen there yeah obviously let's go the other way and then we'll get into why we're I think people probably know why we're excited about them so so what could torpedo their season certainly offensive line injuries they've got some old guys on that offensive line for sure and they don't have great depth there so that's something that could hurt them now I look at the other side and say, like they had the worst past protecting line in the NFL last year. So if they're like, if they're like 24th this year, you know what? That's still a big upgrade from what they were last year. You know what was interesting?

I was listening to you and Nate talk about Joe Lombardi. And so I was trying to think, shoot, you know, is this going to be a good thing or a bad thing? Just how complex they want to be, how many different personnel groupings they want to do, how much volume they want to have in the playbook. And it's one of those things that it's like, if this works, this is going to be unbelievable. but is there a scenario where it's like it's week six and they haven't gotten off to a hot start and the big storyline is like, well, we're just going to simplify some things. You know how coaches love to say that when things aren't working.

Well, we're just going to simplify a little bit. We overthought it because I do think there's a scenario where you look at it and say, you don't need to do too much like this quarterback could be really, really special. We're just, you know, pass the ball a little bit earlier, a little bit more on early downs, be more aggressive with your fourth down decisions, upgrade the offensive line. Like just that in a vacuum could be enough to make them take this huge leap. Now, they're going for the jugular and I understand it. It could be special if it works.

But that was another thing where I looked at it and said, shoot, I hope they don't like overthink this too much and make it too complex and it doesn't work right away. Well, it just so happens. I had a conversation with Joel and Barty today. So let's talk about that. Yeah. I think there are two different answers to that. First of all, there's a reason.

they brought in Corey Winsley on this team. And in New Orleans, Drew Brees did everything. He did everything. He pointed out the mic. He called out the protections. They didn't need the center to do anything. He knew every single tag on every single play, and what everyone was supposed to do.

He could spit out five of them in the huddle if they needed to check between a bunch of them. It was insane. I mean, it's just true insanity for how much control and input he had on what the offense looks like moment to moment. They're not going to have those protection concerns about Herbert. He's not going to have to handle every single bit of protection. Those, as Joe Embardy said to me, those football 202 things,

that's going to be Corey Winsley's job. Herbert is, we have one to two plays that we can check between. If you want to do a kill, we can move between that. If the protections start to get a little bit complicated, that's where Corey can kind of take over and be like, I'm going to handle this, you handle everything else. So they're not going to put too much on his play. When it comes to the plays themselves,

the Saints never, this is something. and the Saints did every week. They had a meeting every Saturday night. It would happen about 10 p.m. and they would literally go through the entire play sheet. And Drew would dot the place he liked the best. And they would go through and talk about every single play. What do you like about this?

What don't you like about that? That is where they started this process with Justin at the beginning. So it wasn't, let's throw all this stuff at you and see what you can handle. It's let's throw all this stuff at you and what are you comfortable with. And they, my understanding is that they have a. established a very good line of communication where he's comfortable saying, I don't like this. I don't want to do this. And so they're tailoring it as much as they can, both to him and to remove any fat that

they're just doing just to do it. So I think that there is a middle ground they can find through this process that will be beneficial to all parties involved. If that makes you feel a little bit better. That makes me feel good. I'm back in. I should have had them in the top three. I don't know why I dropped them to five.

You know, I love the, I love the X's and O's. I love the analytics. I love all that. But sometimes like, you know, I, you know, we grew up as football fans just watching. And sometimes you just watch a player and you're just like, I love this experience of watching this guy. And that's really what I felt with Justin Herbert last year. Like I totally agree with you. His style, like, like the way he played, you know, aggressive downfield movement in the pocket.

Like everything about his style of play, I feel like, you know, caters to what I. really like in a quarterback. And so part of that is probably biased with me, but I just feel like the ceiling is so. I mean, Bulaga played, what, 38% of the snaps last year. Austin Echler, they had one of the worst run games in the NFL. He played 35% of the snaps. You had Rayshon Slater, a left tackle. You add Corey Linzley.

It looks like a monster, by the way. Yeah, whoever was getting rave reviews right away. You had a couple veterans for depth. You have a head coach who's like, you know, I have an understanding of how to win in the NFL. I'm not here to waste. what could be a top five quarterback. And I just see the scenario where by the end of the year, we're going,

this team is set up with quarterback and coach for sustained success. Now, listen, Chargers fans, I understand. I'm not trying to go over the top and jinx it like we do in the national media every year. But that's just honestly how I feel. I just want to hug them and say, they're not going to hurt you anymore. This is the coach and quarterback is in place, barring an injury. They're going to be in good shape. that's just how I feel.

I also think that you talk about those big plays that Justin Herbert can seek out. And we talked earlier about how defenses are kind of shifting to a place where they're not going to let you have those. He has to deal with that every day. He's playing against the defense designed to stop that. So that problem is not going to sneak up on this team where the big armed quarterback doesn't have the big arm throws. What does he do now? He's had to solve that every single day of training camp. And I think that's a really, really good process to have gone through for him at this stage.

And of course, Lombardi coming from a system that was predicated on stringing together, long drives and taking what the defense gives you, right? So it's like, I don't know. I think he'd be less inclined to do that with the guy that they have right now. Because they can, if they want to, they can bite it all off at once now. Speaking of biting all off at once, Josh Allen's Buffalo Bills are number four on this list for you. Is it as simple as do it again? Is there anything else you need to see from them?

Either another step forward or something about that formula last year that you feel was a little bit fragile, or do you just want to see a slightly different, maybe slightly better version of the 2020 bills this fall? I mean, the hard part about the bills is that they're the exception in every way. And Josh Allen is the exception in every way. Now we're going to have these conversations where fans are going to be convinced that a quarterback who stunk his first two years is all of a sudden going to turn it around and be a $43 million a year quarterback. I mean, Daniel Jones, baby. Let's go.

Yeah. Yeah, it's going to happen. But like this isn't the, I mean, maybe it will be. I don't know. Maybe quarterbacks can improve more than they used to. So that's the part that has to have you a little bit scared. You know, I don't know if it's, did Bill James have the Plexiglass theory where when a teammate or a player or a unit takes that huge leap from one year to the next, that third year,

they come back somewhere in between. And that makes total sense. So if they take a little bit of a step back, absolutely, I could see that. But I do think they're probably, I feel like they're the most, the best run front office probably in the NFL. And I feel like they looked at it and said, all right, you know, let's guard against that a little bit. We'll go out sign Emmanuel Sanders, who was more than competent last year. So now you have some wide receiver depth if you get injured there. And so I feel like they addressed their weaknesses a little bit.

They said, let's bring back a lot of these guys. I mean, they had 11 offensive players who logged. 500 snaps last year and 10 are back. I mean, John Brown's the only guy who was not. So they just have the continuity. They have the continuity with the quarterback with the play caller. I wrote about today. They were the most pass happy team in the NFL on early down.

So I think they give themselves an advantage there. And so would it surprise me if Alan took a little bit of a step back and wasn't, you know, like lights out with his accuracy? No, that would not surprise me. But I still think if that happens and he comes back a little bit. it that it's still going to be a very good offense. And again, he's 25 years old. So, like, I can't put a ceiling on a 25-year-old quarterback who just showed the improvement he showed from one year to the next.

Like, I'm not going to say that. And he's endlessly talented. Right. So it's like, you know, he could regress. He could also, there could be another level he gets to. I mean, that, you know, that's not crazy either. So I just like a lot of the infrastructure and the continuity that they have in place. I think so, too.

And we talked about this so many times. There's no reason to belabor the point. that they're just making little tweaks. And going to get Emmanuel Sanders and having a guy that now, instead of John Brown, who does one thing, you have Emmanuel Sanders who has inside, outside, versatility. Just one more layer.

Just if I want to play Emmanuel Sanders in the slot and I want to have Gabe Davis and Stefan Diggs outside, I can do that now. It's not something you could do last year. And don't, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And that's where they're at with the offense, but those little tiny different layers they can add to it, I think are important.

And we talked about it with Lindsay earlier this week. Their rushing offense in the red zone was trash last year. It was the worst red zone rushing offense in the entire NFL. If they can just turn that red zone dial a little bit and figure out that area of the field. And that's an area of the field where you can get gimmicky. If you want to go steal some shit from a high school team that you think works in that area, you can do that. And I think they thought a lot about that this off season in terms of how they could be more efficient down there. And if they can be, Jesus, this could be the best offense in the NFL.

There's no reason they can't be. Yeah, I'm really interested to see how much they, if they do, have new wrinkles with Josh Allen as a runner is fascinating to me. Because if you look at just like some of the success rate metrics, unbelievable. Like when he carries the ball, the chances it's a positive outcome is better than anyone in the NFL. But then you look at the ball secured. And we've all seen the plays where we're like, oh my God, dude, just relax, go down, protect the ball. Live to play another play, my friend. To play another play.

So the fumbles. And then, of course, now you're paying him $43 million. a year, so do you want to put extra hits on him? So that is an interesting part. And I'm the last guy who's not giving up on Devin Singletary, by the way. I still have faith in that guy. I think he can be a very good running back. So I'm interested to see what he does this year.

It's interesting that you mentioned that with the running Allen stuff because that's the first place my brain goes. You're bad in the red zone. Let's flip the numbers, right? Right. Well, now do you want to flip the numbers with your $43 million quarterback who's an MVP candidate? Maybe not.

So that seems like an easy. but maybe a little bit more complicated at this stage of the trajectory for the bills. All right. Let's get to number three. I would put this team number two. And the only reason I would put them number two is because the best quarterback on earth and the best player on earth resides in Kansas City. You had the bucks at number three.

I think this is pretty simple. If this is the team that they were in the second half of last season in terms of approach, in terms of the players on the field, all of that stuff, they could absolutely be the best offense in the NFC. I would expect them to be. the best offense in the NFC, if all of those factors stay in place from the team we saw down the stretch last year.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's not probably a lot to say about it. It's easy to forget now. I know you talked about it and you had the interviews with Left Witch and Arias, but they didn't really find themselves until later last year, right, the second half of the year or whatever. So now you look at that and you say,

well, now that's going to carry over into this year. They're bringing every single person back on offense. You literally have no changes. in the starting lineup and you have the continuity and you have the same play caller and you have the same head coach. It's all there for them to certainly be the best offense in the NFL. I guess if you're looking for a reason to think why they would be third or why they could take a step back,

they were the healthiest offense in the NFL. Last year they were first in football outsiders, adjusted games loss metrics. So listen, I think they've done a good job of building depth. Like, you know, they can easily lose a receiver. They can lose two wide receivers and probably still put up 35, 40 points. So I think they've done a great job. There, they could lose one or two tight ends and they could be fine.

It's really just, are he's the quarterback healthy and are you not getting crushed with offensive line injuries? Like, you know, as long as those two things don't happen, it's really hard for me to envision a scenario where they're not like a top five offense. And like you said, certainly they could be the best in the league. If they lose a guy like Justin works, that's when this goes off the rails a little bit. And even that, I think that you survive. But that's the one spot where they really couldn't afford it.

Because if Godwood goes down, Antonio Brown was apparently hurt. last year and looks like Antonio Brown again. Just think about that in the context of this offense. That's crazy. And tight end, they have plenty of depth. Even if you lose Godwin and Antonio Brown, Tyler Johnson can play. I love Tyler Johnson coming out. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of guys on this team. And I just think that the formula they found down the stretch last year, let's play in 12, let's run play action, let's just all of that stuff. Let's use that to help us create explosives. They did such a good job in that area. And you mentioned it in the piece that you wrote. Brady's a willingness to push the ball down the field and how quickly he was able to push the ball down the field

is almost a total outlier in the NFL. The fact that he had the deepest depth of target in the entire league last year and was still getting rid of the ball at a clip that was able to protect his offensive line, even if his offensive line weren't already good, it shouldn't be possible to play this way. And them settling into that comfort level, it could be like legit, just fireworks every single week. I know that he's a 43-year-old quarterback or 44, however fucking old he is at this point, doesn't really matter.

And any, the cliff could be coming at any moment. But I still just think that group we saw over the last month, if we see them again, people should like run and hide. Yeah, I did the pro football reference season finder, you know, all right, how many quarterbacks have even like been in the league at, this age. I mean, no one has started more than six games in a season. So like, you forget how unprecedented this is. We're talking about not only a guy starting the entire season, but, you know, arguably being could lead the top offense in the NFL, could win the, win the Super Bowl once again. So it's, I think he's a sneaky good MVP bet. He's 44 years old. Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, he could, yeah, sure, he could leave the league in passing yards in touchdowns to, you know,

all these different, whatever metrics you want to look at. he's in great position to succeed. He figured things out last year. He's always stayed healthy. So it's just like, all right, I'm not going to predict him falling off the cliff. Like once he does, all right, I'll go ahead and acknowledge it. But like, I don't know how you could predict based on what we saw last year, that all of a sudden this is going to be the year where he declines.

Remember what was 2014? Remember back then when it was it? That was that we reached the end with Tom Brady after that game in Kansas City. All right. Let's get to the top two here. I think he should surprise anyone. You had the Packers at number two They're first in offensive DUA last year.

We're going to have Matt Schneiman on a future show After our visiting Green Bay We talked a little bit about some of the cracks Maybe they have on offense. What are you worried about with this group? Because we know what you can get excited about. What are you worried about with this group hitting its ceiling? I guess O-line, you know?

Yeah, I guess I guess. But I mean, I don't know. I feel like they've, what is it, restocked the cupboard? I'm not good with that phrase. Stock the cupboard. What is it? Yeah, yeah, stocked the cupboard. one of those, right? Yeah. It's not like they've ignored it. You know, you lose Corey Lindsay. He was an all-pro center last year. So you would think you would take a step back there. Bactiari, of course, coming off an ACL injury. So maybe the first half of the season, he's not the same guy or who knows when he gets back on the field. So those are things that I think certainly if you want to make a case for the bucks or even the bills or some of these other teams, I think the Packers could certainly feel that early on. But I think they've got enough guys. I mean, it's just this pairing of, you know,

ultra-talented quarterback, you know, paired with the coach who, you know, none of his beef is with the coach, right? He and the coach are fine. He can be getting middle fingers up to the front office and whoever he wants to, but him and the coach are fine, him and his teammates appear to be fine. And so I just feel like you look at what they've done really over the last two years and specifically last year when they took their offense to another level. I just feel good about them having a high floor and a high ceiling. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that the running game is, what helps give them that high floor. And if Myers can come in and just be a physical presence from the start. And that's the nice thing about this team is that it's the opposite of what the Chargers need with Corey Winsley, right?

The Packers don't need that aspect of Corey Winsley's game. They don't need a center with Corey Winsley's rookie year was 2014. So they don't need a center with seven years, eight years of starting experience. They need just somebody who can be a presence for them, a physical presence in the run game. Roger's going to handle all the mental stuff on his own. And that's the nice part of that. It's the inverse situation. So that can be something that works out right away.

If Bakhtiari can get back sooner rather than later, I think the offensive line will probably be fine. And then you add guys like Amari Rogers and Randall Cobb, who just have a skill set this offense hasn't had. And you just look at how in control the Packers offense was late in last season. And I know they didn't play as well against the Bucks because Rogers was under pressure and that Bucks defense was just a buzzsaw at that point. But you look at the way they played against the Rams.

talk about teams position to be successful in the modern NFL and the way the defenses are playing. Rogers will take the six every single time. They'll take those five and a half yard carries every single time until you start creeping up, creep it up, creeping up, and that's when that shot to Lazzar comes. And they're just so able to do that. I think they are positioned to be really good again coming from like 10 different directions. I know that's not a novel thing to say, but like, long story short, I understand why

they're at number two for you. I don't know how much time we need to spend on this. The Chiefs are number one. Their offensive line is going to be better. And this is, it's amazing how much of a cheat code Brett Vich has. It's really easy to be a good offensive or a good general manager when Patrick Mahomes is your quarterback. Not only because he makes the team good every single year, but you can literally say, you know what? All we're doing is making the line good.

That's all we need to do this offseason is use all of these resources to make sure this problem doesn't creep up again and will probably be the best offense in the NFL. That is a really nice position to be in where it doesn't have to get any more complicated or nuanced than that. Yeah. I mean, as I'm putting together the list, I'm basically like if I do this for the next, you know, eight, 10 years and Mahomes and Reid are, you know, unless somebody else comes along, if they're both there, like they're probably going to be number one barring an injury.

So, I mean, if you want to, if you want to nitpick, I guess you could say, all right, you know, Orlando Brown in this offense compared to the Ravens offense. He's going to have to pass block for a lot more. You know, you can look at it. They don't have great wide receiver options, I guess, outside of Tyree Kill. You know, Nicole Hardman has to step up. One of their other guys has to step up. But these are, I don't know what the equivalent of first world problems is for NFL offenses.

But that's what we're talking about. I mean, really, I feel like you could probably put Mahomes around 10 league average guys. and he would have been in, you know, the chiefs would have been in this conversation for a top five offense with him and Andy Reid. So, yeah, I don't know how much more there is to say about it. If you're going to have problems or weaknesses on this offense, just don't have them on the line.

I think that's what they learned. Everything else we can work with. The only thing that would prevent us from functioning is the line being completely depleted. And that's what they did. They went out and made sure that problem wouldn't creep up again. So if that's solved and we, we can figure out everything else. We can figure out who the number two receiver is.

And I think that with this running game and the way that they're going to tweak the running scheme and the new offense one, more power, more gap schemes, everything else, I think we could see a more efficient cloud Edwards-Aler in this season. And then you have the running game that's a little bit better. And even if you don't have a number two receiver, all of these things start to work off each other. And I think that's where the chiefs are going to be. Even if they don't have that third receiving option, if the run game is a little bit better, it all comes out in a wash.

that you're still going to have the same type of offense that we've gotten used to. And I think that's the important thing is think about how many teams on the Swiss we've said, well, you know, their offensive line could be a little bit better. That's no longer a problem for this team. And I think that's the most important thing to consider. Yeah, and it's the depth. It's not even just the starters because I thought their offensive line was pretty good for most of last year, but all of a sudden you get to the Super Bowl and everybody's hurt and you get a crush.

So it's not like, you know, in some ways I was like, shoot, did they overreact a little bit? like their offensive line was pretty good for most of the year. But now they just have more depth where if they do suffer some injuries up front, they've got more guys who can come in and play and play competently. So they're going to be in great shape. All right, buddy. That's all we got. Really appreciate you hopping on to do this.

You will be back with us to do one of our division previews, which are coming sooner rather than later. We are almost there. It is August 18th. I have no idea what day of the week it is, by the way. But it is August 18th as I'm looking at it right here. So we will be back to do that with you. Everyone, please go check out all the stuff that Sheila is doing.

What are you working on right now? What is the most recent thing that people can go look at? You know, I did this little training camp tour, which I saw you on. And so having conversations with coaches and GMs and people, I'm trying to do a little notebook on as many of those as possible. So I did one on the Bills. I did one on the Browns, who I thought Stefansky and Barry had interesting things to say. And the next one will be about the Ravens,

who didn't quite crack the top 10 here. who I just outside the top 10, but I do think they're an interesting team. So with some stuff from John Harbaugh, that'll be on the athletic by the time people listen to this. Is that he's the only person you talk to there that you're going to put in there? Yes. Yeah, it's Harba. That sounds great.

I will definitely read that because that's a team I want to be thinking more about than I have been, which that's on me. All right, buddy, really appreciate the time. We will talk to you down the road. Thanks. All right, guys, it's time now with the conversation I had with our Bengals writer at the Athletic, Paul Deiner. Hope you guys enjoy it.

Let's get to it. All right. And it's time now to welcome the Athletics Bangle's writer, one of the Athletics Spangles Writers, Paul Deanor Jr. How are you doing, man? What's up? It's good to have you here in-house. We've done stuff over Zoom before, but now you're sitting here.

We're at the table together. This is good. I like it. I am loving this. All of these places are a little different, right? That's one of the most fun parts about this. We are sitting in the press box dining area. Yes, which has been converted into the media work room.

Yes. Yes. There is a lot of that weirdness going on. I just had a conversation with the Bengals quarterbacks coach with a mask on from six feet away. That was a new one for me. Every single day provides something new on this trip. So let's start with this. I think the tenor of this conversation, as we are having it on August 17th,

is much, much different than it would have been if we were having it on August 10th based on some of the things that you guys were seeing. So let's talk about the first stage of training camp with the Bengals. You wrote about this, a lot of other people wrote about this, and beyond that, the Bengals were talking about it openly about how uncomfortable Joe Burrow looked and about how that was seeping into an offensive performance that was pretty dreadful. Yeah, I mean, every practice was awful. I mean, for the offense. Now, the defense was loving it, and they were shoving it in their face. And there was a lot to be said, actually, as part of that was, you know, a defense that has looked better than I think a lot of people thought it would. and that's a whole separate conversation,

but really it was about, you know, Joe Burrow, we watched him go through a very new part of his rehab in front of our eyes in real time. It would be like watching him go on the treadmill for the first time for a week when he first started running because he had to rehab his brain. He had to rehab himself for the first time to be around moving pieces around his legs,

his legs and dealing with all that pocket presence stuff, which is his superpower, by the way. And that's such a good point. It's such a different wrinkle on it. And we had to relearn to do that again. And we all watched it. And he was off. He was feeling it. He was looking with his eyes down at the rush, not up at the receivers.

And it threw off everything. So every practice, it was like four of 11, five of 12, you know, interceptions, throwing right. Everything that Joe Burrow hasn't ever been. He was for that. And then he came out and openly discussed what he's going through. And they started making moves to help him get through it. And he talked himself through it. And then what you saw was it has gradually changed.

He's like anybody in their rehab started getting better at it, started feeling good about it again and getting that confidence. And I think they're in a much better place now. He looked great today. Yeah. I mean, delivered two really beautiful throws. And we'll talk about what those throws looked like. I don't know if we're allowed to. but we'll do some of that here in a second.

And I think that that's worth discussing. But it's just so interesting the transparency associated with this conversation, the fact that he was willing to come out and say that. I mean, I talked to the quarterback's coach today and Brian Kalli, and the offensive coordinator, and they are openly just talking about how they sat down and were like, what do we need to do to make you more comfortable during individual drills? There's a lot of bodies around.

You guys will hear about that in a little bit. And just being intentional about the way we can move through this. And now that they have, I think we can kind of change. how we talk about this team and what we're looking at. Because part of the reason that tone of the conversation was so depressing is that this is the year they're supposed to build, right? Even though he's coming back from injury,

you have a top five receiver here now. You went out and got a right tackle. You're in year two of the system with an entire off season. The hope is can we become a good offense, a really good bona fide NFL offense? And if they were going to be dragged down by his health concerns, that becomes more difficult. Now, if we're out of the woods a little bit, maybe we can start having that conversation.

Yeah, I mean, that was the, you always wondered how long will the mental aspect take? And we've heard from quarterbacks in the past about how, you know, it took me months. It took me a year, it took me whatever it took to really feel right. How long is it going to take Joe Burrow, who we have watched, overcome every piece of adversity that's been thrown his way since he's been here and just tackle it? I always, you know, he was the adversity crushing robot. And so when you saw him act human, it was startling. Yeah. And it's like all he's doing is acting like anybody else.

And I talked to the director of rehab, Nick Cosgrave for a story that I wrote a week ago on The Athletic. And, you know, he was saying, I look at it and maybe people see something different. I see somebody who is still blowing away expectations. He's out there dropping back, cutting, throwing, looking like a real NFL quarterback, only eight months seven months from a major ACL injury and beyond that right more than just the right beyond that exactly a major reconstruction and so you're talking about he's like people may see what they want to see discomfort and miss throws or whatever I see something amazing still happening even when he was struggling and now you see them finding you know the comfort level

with them and it makes you believe that okay he is going to arrive week one with that same confidence that he had the play before he goes down in Washington last year which was leading an offense that was cooking. People wouldn't pay attention because the Bengals were bad. And they became, all their whole story was, oh, the line got Burrow killed. People don't remember that for a month prior, they were second in the league in points per drive. And that was with A.J. Green doing very little.

And Burrow being still learning. And T. Higgins still coming into his own. And an offensive line that was worse than this one will be. and they were moving the ball on everyone. And that gets forgotten because of how it ended, and understandably so. But I think that's what this coaching staff and Burrow and everybody sees because they know what they were and they feel like nobody got to see them take the step in between where they're at now. They were at a level.

They were about to take a big second step at the end of his rookie year. And then it would be a natural fit for the next step to be where they think they can be a top five offense. Now, can they do that? We'll see. But I think that's why you'll hear optimism from the staff when you talk to them. And I don't want to dig too much into this and read too much into this, but he's always somebody that came across to me as just very apparently confident, very self-assured.

And I think that with young quarterbacks, that voice is sometimes hard to find when you're talking to your coaching staff. And I talked to the quarterback coach today about when he came in as a rookie, you guys are figuring out how to shape the offense around him. What were those initial conversations like? And he just talked about how he was so deeply confident in what he did at LSU and what he was seeing and his ability to articulate that kind of stuff that his input is valid. And that's how you shape the offense. And I think his self-assuredness in coming to his coaching and saying, I don't feel good. I don't feel comfortable.

What can we do about this? A lot of guys in their second year young quarterbacks wouldn't step up and say that. They wouldn't feel comfortable enough to be that lay it all on the table with their bosses the way that he was. I've never seen anyone at a young age come in and own not just the room, not just the locker room, not just the stadium, but the city. Yeah. I mean, he knows it. And he is, everyone looks to him. You know, I always joked, you know, when people, your locker room is whoever the rookies walk in and their eyes get wide open when they're like in awe of them.

Yeah. That's your locker room. For here, forever, it was AJ Green and Gino Atkins and Carlos Don't Lapping a lot. of guys that had a lot of skins on the wall. And that's why it was important for them to clear all of them out. Because this locker room needs to be Joe Burrow. And it needs to be Sam Hubbard and Jesse Bates and the Young Corps. Because those guys in Von Bell, those guys never felt like they could be the ones to drive the conversation, to drive the mentality of the team, to drive what the locker room is and the way they work.

that's how Joe Burrow have made his reputation and that's how he has changed the way this place is because he makes it by working and he's like that and that is his confidence his confidence is I'm going to outwork you and I'm going to be better than you and I'm going to tell you about it and that has taken over this entire team

as their hope and that's why last year was so devastating when he went down because everybody knew that already this guy 10 games in was totally their entire embodiment of who they were it. You could feel it. It was over. And I think that, so let's move into

what the 2.0 version of that offense, what Joe Burrow feeling good should look like, right? So they draft Jamar Chase. And that, we know. It's going to be Jamar Chase, T. Higgins, Tyler Boyd. We're living in 11 personnel. That's how we exist. That's where we're best. We know that. That makes sense. The one area

where they really struggled last year, where they need to be better this year, is just creating explosive place. I think that that happens in a lot of different ways after talking to some people today. You saw it day. The two long throws that he completed, one was just a deep over off play action, like we've seen a million different times out of that ram, Shanahan, whatever offense. The other one was a sale concept with C. Joe Zaman, a deep corner. Same kind of deal. We've seen that a million different

times. And that aspect of it, where they're transitioning from that shotgun, empty, let me play point guard offense to, we're under center, we're running the ball, we're using play action, or we're taking shots off of it. To me, that is going to be the key. an obvious step for this offense this year if they're going to move into a new realm and a new tier of NFL teams. I would agree in that. I think you're still going to see a lot of the LSU five. I mean, you're still going to see that.

They had, you know, Burroughs comfortable and I think you'll still see that. And I agree with all of that. To me, though, the difference between good and great is what do Joe Mixen and Frank Pollock do with this run game? Totally. Joe Mixon last year, they were inefficient in the run game. forced them to throw as much as they did. They didn't want to throw it. Brian Callahan's talked openly about that. They did not want to be a team that threw it as much as Burrow had

to last year. When you're down by two touchdowns consistently, it's hard to play any other way. And you can't run. And they were inefficient running the ball. They had a couple of games where Mixon was able to get out and they were unstoppable. And that's why they brought in Frank Pollock, who has his history as the run game coordinator is he's turned out a lot of good run games over his career, including here the last time he was here in 2018 was Joe Mixon's best year at 4.9 per carry running this offense. So they pinpointed that as we've got to, if we do that, that's when we're a nightmare. Because if we're doing that, if you're getting 4.9, Joe Mixon, and the offshoot of that that is looking out at T. Higgins, Tyler Boyd, and Jemar Chase with Burrow at the, at the handle,

I mean, that's when you're a nightmare. And that's to me what would set them apart. can they get that back to being efficient and making Mixen, you know, a playmaker, making mixing the Todd Gurley in his prime of the Rams offense, that to me is going to be the difference because I think they'll be able to throw it within some realm of what they want to, but that will make them good or okay. What will make them great is if they can turn that into 4.9 Joe Mixon and not 3.6 Joe Mixon. And I think that Zach Taylor told me today that in the same way, we talk about Joe Berger getting used to his knee,

Jamar Chase needs to get used to the NFL. Yep. I mean, that's going to be a transition as somebody who could really bully people at LSU. You look at the type of player he was. That's kind of why I was concerned about him coming out, but what does this guy look like in a world where he's playing against the best SEC corner every week?

How does that translate? And I think that he's kind of had to get used to playing against more press man coverage, playing against seems totally different coverage structures all the time. So that is going to be a transition. but if he can figure it out, I think it works. If the running game comes together and he is that guy that can be your number one option from day one, they have a lot of upside as an offense.

But I don't think they need him to be number. I think T. Higgins is the number one from day one. I think people underestimate what T. Higgins is going to be this year. And I think next year, and Chase may come in and have a Justin Jefferson year. Say 1A1B. He doesn't need to be Justin Jefferson. But I think the fact they don't need him to be that right away helps them a lot. because T is ready to be that guy.

That torch was passed last year. He is so much bigger than I expected him to be. I've never seen a person before. And he's gotten bigger since last year. I thought he was a tight end. I legitimately thought he was a tight end when I saw him. Because he was standing on the same side as Chase. And I was like, oh, that's interesting.

The tight end is in the slot. I look down to my roster. It's 85, yeah. And I mean, he looks, but he worked. He talked a lot about how last year he was not diligent coming in with his body being right and understanding that in the NFL and felt that held him back a lot. And he did. He had a hamstring injury early. And that was why he had a slow start. In games that Joe Burrow and T. Higgins started together last year, eight of them.

The pace for a full season was T. Higgins with 1,200 yards and over 10 touchdowns and 15 yards per reception. That was the eight, just when they played together because Higgins didn't get started until a few in. to me that's what t higgins is for them right now it can be if they need him to be he goes into this offseason then and it attacks he realizes what needs to be physically that he needs to be mini megatron or alan robinson or whatever you want to comp him to at this point and and takes that on in a big way and shows up and everyone's like whoa like you're taking this serious and that makes everybody take things more serious when you see a guy like that who had a great year approach the offseason and come in like he did ready to go.

It's interesting that you mentioned those two guys because I think that is where Jamar Chase fits into this equation, right? Because what Teagans can be is that big outside contested catch like muscling people. They don't have that. I'm going to throw it to you six yards past the line scrimmage, you turn into a 40-yard game. And they need Jamar Chase to be that. Because that is an aspect of their offense. They miss last year.

Do you want to talk about the five elephants in the room? Hopefully they'll move like elephants because they're in the wide zone now. Yeah. The offensive line has obviously been a point of conversation, even between you and I over the last six months or so. We're past the Pentezulje's time. We are living in a different world. Why can we be?

It's over. You cannot live in the past, Paul. I tell people this on Twitter all the time. They don't listen to me. You cannot live in the past. This is what we're working with here. So you have this line. The hope I'd assume on draft day,

when you draft Jackson Carmen as a guard in the second round, is that he will be a starter. as things currently sit, it doesn't seem like that has happened. So now, the one change that we've made from last year's line, essentially, when guys are healthy, is Riley Reef is the right tackle. All of the other guys are usual suspects. How are we feeling about that on August 17th? I mean, not super. I say this.

I'll say this. I mean, you know, when we had that discussion, and this be the last thing I'll say about that was I said the reason why I did. was maybe Team Sewell was because I've seen this team draft offensive linemen for a decade. Poorly. Yeah. And this was why?

This was our concern, dude. Right? Like, this is it. They're going to draft the wrong guy. And right now, it is way too early to declare anyone in this league that was drafted. No,

I want to make it clear. I'm not doing that. But he is not going to start week one. He's barely practicing because he's with the threes and the twos. And they're working through a lot of rookie maturity, weight.

all these things that happen to a lot of rookies that come into the league. They're working through that. So as far as answers, you know, I'm comfortable with Quentin Spain at Left Guard as a veteran who has 64 starts, who is motivated, and I think you know what he's going to be. Health is the only thing with him. He's just been heard a lot. Yeah. And so you have Trey Hopkins at Center, your two bookends you're comfortable with the right tackle reef being a major upgrade over Bobby Hart. It's about this right guard spot.

And there's just, you know, they've got a bunch of guys who. Xavier Suafilo, you know who he is. So they're kind of letting him hang out. They've got all the guys who have been the third guard on a lot of NFL teams. They've got every single one of them. Yeah, they've, and your hope. And they have a fourth round guy in Deontay Smith, who's kind of been the talk of camp,

who was out of East Carolina as a project tackle and showed up here and was muscling and bullying people and he reworked his body and made him think maybe he can play guard. He's gotten in there and been better than anybody. Now, he does a lot of rookie stuff. He has a lot of technique stuff. He's very much a rookie from East Carolina. But he's really looked good, and they're giving him every chance to go prove that maybe he could be that guy.

Maybe not immediately. But maybe he could be that guy. And maybe they did draft the guard they needed in this draft. It was just two rounds later. And didn't realize. It happens. All the time. Especially in the interior of the line happens more often than you think.

All the time. It does. And so maybe they still got it right in dumb luck. But, you know, I think that's. the hope, but for now, I think they can be good enough if they put the veterans out there, you know, and early on and wait and see what happens with the younger guys to let the rest of the offense cook and see if it works. You know, I mean, we are kind of, you are on that tightrope again, though.

Can they work themselves to average? We'll see. Let's talk about the defense very quickly. They've spent a lot of money on this defense. The way I would describe it is they've microwaved the defense. I love that term. I've been using that. I hope you might not have been stealing that.

That's totally fine. They threw the defense in the microwave. When you look at DJ Reader, Trey Hendrickson, Trey Waynes, Von Bell, Chiodobie Ouzier, Mike Hilton. This is a defense built through free agency. Point point point. I mean, that's what it is. They are also the 27th best defense in the league last year. If they can't get a lot better, we got a lot of questions, that's to ask here.

Yeah, no, totally agree. I mean, and I think there's a lot of pressure on them to be better because they have put so much. And Larry Gunjobie, who you didn't mention. It's hard to get them all. He might be the most important guy of all of them because here's what happened last year. This team was decimated on their defensive line, particularly on the interior.

The Reader missed the whole season, right? You know, Geno Adkins got hurt, whatever's going on, his career's older, all those things, was a total non-factor. The Carlos Dunlap situation blows up in their face. DJ Reader, they pay $14 million to, you know, to B.L, everything knows tackle. he makes it four games and blows his quad up. You know, Hubbard wins four games.

Yeah, Hubbard gets hurt. He misses time. I mean, they were playing guys off the street in like mid-season across the board. They were major moments, defining moments of games where all four guys on the front were not on the roster in August. And they got no pressure. They were bottom of leads in sacks. They had no pressure. And so particularly they had to reinvigorate their interior patterns.

rush. Ogun Joby, they really believe they found, they think that he should be a three technique and was playing a bit out of position in Cleveland. They can really unlock him. Early on in camp, he looks phenomenal. He looks like maybe they have beyond something there. And Hendrickson and Hubbard and Reader and Joseph Osai, who they drafted in the third round, who was awesome in their preseason opener.

Camp sample, they drafted in the fourth round. Tyler Shelvin, they drafted in the fifth. They have just thrown everything at. They're throwing bodies at the problem. Every all of them and saying it's going to work itself out because we believe that some of these guys are going to work out and I and I tend to believe it too. I think if you change that, I think this defense is viewed and plays much differently. They just they were victims of their own lack of pressure last year and they had Carl Lawson, but they had nothing else. So it's interesting because the guys you listen off, especially on the front, Hendrickson, DJ Reader, you can go with Joe B, whatever.

especially with Hendrickson and Reader, they're paying sticker prices for those guys. They're paying elite money for not elite players. And that can get you in trouble. And I think even Trey Waynes might also fall into that category. They're spending the seventh most money in the NFL on defense this year to the cap. The teams above them are better on defense than the Bengals are. That's all I'll say.

But the nice part is they're spending no money on the offense. And the offense should be the better unit, right? You have two rookies at receiver. You have Tyler Boyd on a reasonable. deal. You have Joe Burrow on a rookie deal. You have Riley Reef making whatever one year 33-year-old tackle makes. Your left tackles on a rookie deal. Joe Mixon just got paid, but for the most part, these are guys in the early stages of their careers. Can they afford to overpay a little bit on defense over the next two years as this offense grows while it's cheap? I think that is going to

be the big challenge. It's the bet they made. I mean, it's when people talk about how are you going to take advantage of the rookie contract, that's how they did. Yeah. And I personally like, like the dynamic of getting the young offense that grows together. I think it makes total sense. I mean, we saw it happen with AJ Green and Adolf. And that's how they treated the last two off seasons. I mean, they did the same investment last offseason in free agency. By the way, the team that literally has never paid anything in free agency.

It's weird. It's very strange. The leaders, I mean, it's insane the new school of thought there. But as they've gutted this roster, they have spent everything on defense and they've tried to grow the offense from. And so now they have an offense that has every major piece under contract for the next two years. and they can be better together. But the defense needs to be better right away

because they have guys that are vets. They're guys on their second contracts. They're guys that should be out there trying to, you hope make good on that. And if they overpay, they did overpay. But it's the luxury of the rookie deal they're living in right now where they can afford to overpay in order to make sure they got somebody and don't get stuck with nobody.

But this only works. This plan only comes together if the offense is. really, really good. Oh, yeah. The defense needs to be, if the defense is average, can the offense be really, really good? Yeah, and I think the chances of that are a little, I feel a little bit better about those chances now

than I did reading your stuff a week. Oh, yeah, as did I watching it. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, the makeup of this team, if they do what they want to do, is the 16th ranked defense, the 18th best offensive line, and an offense that's top five.

That's what it needs to look like, and honestly, look at the teams that are playing at the end every year. They usually have something that can, oftentimes be in that realm sometimes. Awesome. Well, we just spent 23 minutes talking about the Bengals. As we discussed earlier today, I've spent

a lot of time thinking about this team over the last six months. I've enjoyed it. It's a fascinating team. Honestly, I've covered them when they were going to the playoffs every year and inherently boring. They're fascinating. They're fascinating. They're fascinating right now.

They're an incredible case study in the league. They've got a lot of young, fun players, and I don't know if they're going to win anything. But I do know that they're really fun team to watch to see what happens because the spectrum of possible results is very wide. I totally agree. And that's why we're doing this. All right, buddy. It was so good to see you. So good chat with you. I really appreciate the time. We will catch up, I'm sure. No matter where it ends up on that spectrum, we will talk about it. There's no doubt.

Thanks, bud. Yep. All right, guys, before we get to our conversation with Bengals offense coordinator, Brian Callahan, just wanted to let you know, there's some noise in the background. We were standing, I don't know, on the 50-yard line of Paul Brown Stadium, and they were doing some work on the stadium as we were talking. So hopefully that's not too distracting because I really wanted you to hear some of this conversation. We chatted about really what they tried to do to help Joe Burrow get comfortable early in camp. He was struggling with having confidence in his knee and they had a pretty open and honest chat about it that I wanted you guys to hear about. And also some of the

stuff about how they wanted to grow the offense in their second season with Burrow at quarterback. So here's the conversation I had, Jack Hammer and all with Bengals' offensive coordinator, Brian Calhound. First things first, as you've kind of worked with Joe and watched him over the last couple of weeks, where do you feel like was kind of the biggest hump for him to get over and just being comfortable? It was getting used to being in the pocket with a live rush. Now, he's never live, obviously, but that feeling of, oh boy, here to do that. It's coming down on me. Yeah.

And we went through probably about two or three practices where he was visibly uncomfortable. didn't trust, didn't have a lot of, just that last hurdle mentally for him to get over. So, you know, I think he kind of took a step back, reflected on him for a minute. And then we just decided to put as many things around him as humanly possible. When you say things, what do you mean? I was like me and Dan pitcher, quarterback's coach, like even in throwing routes on air, we'd be standing next to him, moving around. Interesting.

Every single rep he took, we tried to just have some version of presence. It had to about a day or two after that He was just about back to normal It was just that last mental hurdle of And now I've done everything to put myself in position The rehab's gone great I have not had any issues at all It's been hard work

But it's been work that's put me in position to play And when he got to the point where It's just that initial shock of Oh shit here they go Yeah, it's a lot That's one of those things where it just becomes unconscious, right? As much as you want to

want to say, I'm comfortable, I feel good. There's just nothing you can do to control how you react to that situation. And the only thing that you ever are going to get better at, better from it is just to do it. Yeah. And so we just kind of forced the issue and just said, all, well, every throw you have the next two days, someone will be near you, in front of you, behind you. You'll feel the presence of something, a bag, a body, whatever it is. But then he took over and after that, he's really been back the moment.

Did you guys have like an actual conscious conversation about it early in camp? Or like, do you feel okay? Like, what was the dialogue like? He was, he was not planning to his standard early in camp. You know, throws that he normally make, you know, he was, he was missing. And he, as, you know, day one, one or the day two, one or day three, he was visibly frustrated. Yeah. And he had to express to us that he goes, I just don't feel.

He goes, I'm not feeling the rush. I'm watching it. I can't help it. I'm looking and my eyes are coming down. I'm not stepping in the throws. I don't feel, I just feel very uncomfortable. And we said,

all right, well, that's, you know, how we expect that because I've seen guys come off of injuries before. He probably did not expect it.

He probably thought, there's no way to plan for it, right? Yeah. I mean, how do you, I don't know until you've done it. And so then he, then he requested,

he said, would you, I just need, I need more people around me, more reps. And I think he also take a deep breath and say,

I don't have to be, it's okay to not be 100% right now. I can, I'll work to that point. I have six weeks until the season starts. So I don't need to be great now. I need to be ready to play in September. And so I think just kind of recalibrated his mindset a little bit. And there's going to be days where I don't feel great.

Maybe a throw that I make that don't make now than I'm making in a month. And it just kind of helped him. I think he had a lot of pressure on himself to be performed. And he didn't perform the way he wanted to do early. And he expressed it. We talked about it. We talked through it. It's a good thing about Joe and all.

and Zach and Dan pitch from us, we all have a really open dialogue about everything from plays to players to how he's feeling and he's not afraid to share and we're not afraid to adjust. I feel like that's just a really pronounced level of self-awareness and honesty for a young guy to be able to come to you with that. I think that says a lot about where he's probably at and just the, I don't know, his self-assuredness in a way. Yeah, he's probably the most mature young player I've ever seen. I've been fortunate. I've coached veterans at most places I've been. Yeah.

You know, Matthew Stafford and Payne Manning, even Derek Carr to some degree, was well into his career. Six years, right? Yeah. So it wasn't, I've not had many rookies that play. I've had guys that have come in as rookies with development. But to be the starter in the face of a franchise, the amount of scrutiny and pressure puts on him, to be able to handle it the way he does, I think is really one of his best traits. His ability is to manage the pressure and manage. the expectations and then perform.

And that's kind of what makes him special, is that maturity. So last year you guys don't have an offseason, right? And it feels like a lot of the offense, just in my untrained eye, is shaped around the things he's comfortable with, a lot of empty, getting guys out and runs, helping him see the game the way he did in college. When you step into year two, do you guys consciously say, all right, now we're going to take the offense from what he does well

to what we think we need to be? Yes. We went in very, very openly and honestly, trying to make the first year here being like his third year at LSU. It was a conscious decision. We worked very closely with him on, you know, we've got every play you could ever have. And we just went through, you know, here's the things that he did well at LSU. Do we have the concept? Yes.

Did they do something different that Joe liked? Okay, sure, y'all does do it that way. There was a whole lot of giving, give on our end to him to make it as, functionally comfortable to be able to execute at the level he executed at LSU because that's ultimately what everybody wants and so his first year

was designed around that and the more comfortable he got as the season went in we started to introduce more elements of the things that you'd have to be able to do in the NFL to be successful you know under center and run games is a huge part you can't sit in the shotgun

and run the ball in the NFL and be good at it and also a plash and gets affected if you don't do that yes there's a whole set of offense that he kind of started to get grown into. That would have probably, as the year went along, gotten much more pronounced. But now this year, it's like, all right, look, man, we got to be under center and we got to play action. We got a run to understand it.

We will still do all the things that you do well, but there's things that for the rest of the offense to thrive that we got to be able to do. How did you balance? Because there is a balance, right, about having five guys out in routes and playing a lot of empty and having an offensive line maybe you're not comfortable with and a quarterback that's young and you want to protect. In your mind, as you're shaping the offense, is that in the back of your head? Is this a smart way to construct this, even if he's comfortable?

Yeah, I think the benefit of the empty is that most of the time in all those empty sets, he knows his problems. Yes. He can correct himself. Yeah, and the ball rarely gets held. I mean, it's not a form of offense where you're trying to push the ball in the field. You're, you know, it's a death by 1,000 paper cuts. Yeah.

Just trying to find completions, and all of a sudden you move 30 yards. And that's kind of how we play for portions of a year. So that part didn't really wasn't the bothersome part, you know, as far as trying to get him protected, because he could protect himself. Yep. And there was always going to be five guys out, somebody's going to have at least a chance to get the ball. And you're letting him play with his biggest strength, right? Like, that's using his mind is like exactly what you need him to do in those moments.

Yep. And so it was, you know, you're balancing. The heart part is when you get into the, we got in some unfavorable down in distances and some third and longers where now you're getting everybody's best stuff. You're getting all the pressure packages. You know, you're not really keeping them off balance. They know you got to throw it. Those are the ones that are more concerning where you're like,

this isn't healthy and good for a young quarterback to be in these spots. You'd like to be more balanced and more manageable down in distance. And those games that we were, we played really well. And we scored a bunch of points. And so, you know, going back and forth between those two things was, you know, it had moments that was challenging. But I think hopefully we're in a place now where we can kind of do all of it to the degree you need to to move the ball in the NFL.

If you look at what you guys did last year, I mean, the deep passing numbers are not where you want them to be, right? And you played a style like you said, where it's just more ball control, more being comfortable. How do you start the plan to hunt for those big plays? Do you go back to what Zach did in LA a little bit? Do you look at what's happening around the league? Where does that plan start last spring? Yeah, kind of all of that, really. You study the teams that were, that had all those explosive plays. You know, you always going in an off-season study a bunch of things. One of them was, you know, explosive plays. And you watch them, and you know, well, is that,

is that us? Do we have that player? Sometimes, you have that quarterback, the guys that can launch the ball and hold on to the ball for 12 seconds, and they get smoked and they throw the ball suddenly are. Like, there's guys that exist like that, Josh Allen's and the pastoral. Yeah. Yeah. So you kind of figure out what, where are people manufacturing yards, and do you have those elements in your system. You got to rep them more. You got to get, you got to do those things more often.

And then the stuff that you do have, you got to find ways to get better. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Sincerely appreciate Paul joining us. Thank you to Sheel. Thank you to Brian Callahan. We will be back on Tuesday.

We're doing a little fantasy football talk. I think that is the plan right now. So very excited about that. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice I would sincerely appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic. I have a piece up from yesterday about the most fun fantasy team, fake money can buy you in an auction this year.

It's the eighth year that I've done this. So I always enjoy doing it. It's a yearly tradition at this point. I'd love if you guys would go check it out. We'll be back on Tuesday. Until then, enjoy your weekend. We'll talk to you guys later. This was The Athletic Football Show.