The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Trade deadline recap: Za'Darius Smith to the Lions, Marshon Lattimore to the Commanders

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

The NFL trade deadline...no longer a snoozer! We had plenty of activity in the wide receiver market over the last few weeks, and the final day before the deadline brought us plenty of meaningful deals, highlighted by Za'Darius Smith to the Lions and Marshon Lattimore to the Commanders. Robert Mays and Mike Sando wrap up deadline day, plus recap recent news and look ahead to the second half of the season, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.RundownThe Chiefs seem awfully happy with DeAndre HopkinsZa'Darius Smith to the LionsMarshon Lattimore to the CommandersThe Steelers make a couple movesTre White to the RavensSmaller deadline day movesWhat's next in New Orleans after the firing of Dennis Allen?The Raiders clean houseThe rudderless CowboysLooking ahead to the second halfHost: Robert MaysWith: Mike SandoExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Make on X: @SandoNFLTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show today. Me and Mike Sando breaking down the 2024 trade deadline. Got some moves, right? Wasn't completely lifeless in the way that it has been in some previous years. Mike and I talked a little bit about that, maybe why some teams are a little bit more willing to make moves at the deadline than

they were in the past. And it makes for a more exciting time. So Darius Smith going to Browns talked about that. Marshall and Latimer going to Washington. And pretty much what was the most. what was the most impactful biggest news of the day. A couple smaller moves. You know, the Steelers getting a little bit of depth at some spots.

The Bengals adding a running back. Jonathan Mingo going to the Cowboys, which inspired some conversation about where the Cowboys actually are as we get to the trade deadline here. Very much enjoyed talking about all of that stuff with Mike. Let's get to it. It is our senior NFL writer at The Athletic. It's Mr. Mike Sando.

Mike, how you doing, man? I'm doing well. There's a lot of activity, isn't it? Yeah. I wanted to ask you, done this for a long time, and you've covered many a trade deadline. We've gotten a lot more movement over the last couple years than we got, even like five years ago, but especially 10 or 15 years ago. What does the trade deadline in the NFL feel like currently compared to what it felt like

when you first started covering the week? Yeah, way more teams are open to moving things off their roster that really aren't that big of a deal in a lot of cases. Sometimes we're seeing a lot more like, hey, you know what, we'll do a late round pick swap or we're going to, we're going to trade a guy, you know, Treadavius Y doesn't work out, but, you know, rather than cut them, that kind of, we kind of look bad if we cut them or whatever, you know, let's, let's find a way, let's find a way to do something. Can I get anything? Can I get any sort of a thing out of, out of these deals? So I think there's just way more, there's way more non-important, kind of unimportant, smaller deals that kind of make sense. I mean, you know, why not do it, right? They're not huge

needle movers. And then I think we've also seen the, activities feels like start earlier, too. It felt like there's just a lot of wide receivers moving early this year. And maybe in the past, if that had happened, you'd say, oh, there's nothing left at the deadline. All the moves have happened. But now there's just, shoot, there'll probably be, how many moves are there today? It feels like there's. There's like eight or nine today.

And then you combine that with some of the bigger ones that we had over the last couple weeks. And it was a pretty notable, a pretty movement-filled deadline. And we can talk about a couple of those wide receiver moves before we dig into the stuff that happened today. We're not going to break down Monday night football on this show like we typically do in the midweek show just because this is coming out on Wednesday. But DeAndra Hopkins thing seems to have worked out for Kansas City and just what sort of element he gives their offense. I love how happy he looks with Patrick Mahomes. Oh my gosh. Even Mahomes afterwards on the broadcast last night when he was talking to Lisa Salters, she asked him, you know, what does DeAndre Hopkins give you?

And immediately he just goes, a guy who can win one on one. a guy who can win one on one. Watching him win on that slant and them score a touchdown that way, I want to say that I think Hopkins had six catches yesterday when lined up on the line of scrimmage, just like the outside receiver. And it was the most in a game for the chiefs in like several years. Because think about what they typically get out of those guys,

like Rish Rice was in the slot a lot. And so having somebody that can be that isolated X receiver within this offense, they haven't really had that for a while. And I wasn't sure how they were going to use Hopkins, but it does seem like they're trotting him out there in a lot of the ways he was used earlier in his career. And it really does give this team a dynamic and an option that they just did not have otherwise. So this one's working out okay so far. I mean, they might lose the game on the night if they don't have him.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think he was that much of an impact. And him posting on X, you know, the picture of Tom Brady hugging Randy, I saw that. Look, I mean, I don't know if we're expecting that type of a season. But still, it shows just how happy he is. And I think, you know, for anyone who's had a job and changed jobs and then been super happy in a new place, they get more out of you, right, when you do that. So it doesn't mean that DeAndre Hopkins was not, didn't have his heart in it where he was before. You just can't fake what he's got.

He has, he appreciates at this stage of his career, how close he is to the end and how this could easily not happen. A lot of guys just sort of fade away. He could have been made to fade away this year. And his career maybe never gets a bump. Yeah, it's such a good point. But this is just like landing in heaven. It's like winning the lottery. So it doesn't mean he's as good as he was before, but he can still rise up.

I'm not going to compare DeAndre Hopkins to Michael Jordan. But a 42-year-old Michael Jordan could get 50 one night, right? I mean, he can do it. It doesn't mean that he's as good as he was before. Like a DeAndre Hopkins can still rise up in a moment. He can still make a play. he can still kind of do it at times. And you're going to get more out of that now.

Just having a reliable option out there. I mean, DeAndre Hopkins is not who he was five to seven years ago, but he's still a lot better than whatever other receivers the chiefs could be trotten out, given the current state of their roster. And for a guy like him, I think that's such a great point where he has this trajectory, which a lot of receivers do, where especially when you change teams later in your career, you go to a new situation. It's a team that a lot of movement, a lot of change in Tennessee.

things are obviously not going well there. So the trajectory of it is you're just sliding down and down and down potentially until the end. And now to kind of get this bump back up, give yourself a chance to win a Super Bowl later in your career. It's pretty nice. Not a bad way to close things out potentially if you were near the end for DeAndre Hopkins. Oh, love how appreciative he is. You can really see it in him just the joy. So fun to watch, a great move for them.

And hopefully for them they can get Xavier Worthy going a little bit, not running out of bounds on the deep bowl. Because they could have really broken that game open with a couple more plays from a couple of other guys. And it's just nice that now that Dave, where he can kind of play the role that he was expected to play coming into the year, where you're creating space for Hopkins and Travis Kelsey, the pecking order of what the past catching options look like

now feels more correct than it did without Hopkins in the mix. So the Chiefs, obviously, Super Bowl contender, undefeated, one of the best teams in the league. They're making moves to try to put them over the top to win a title. And that's exactly what the second move that we're going to talk about here looks like for the Detroit Lions. The Lions go out. They trade for Zadarius Smith this morning.

Browns get a 2025 fifth and a 2025-6. The Lions also get a 2026-7th back in this deal. There's a reason that everybody who was paying attention to the league over the last month or so wanted this to happen, especially after the Aitin Hutchinson injury. I think it makes tons of sense for where the Lions are. It obviously makes sense for where the Browns are as they hit a soft reset heading into next season.

What did you think of the Zadari Smith moved to Detroit? I thought it made a ton of sense, and I like the price Detroit paid because it's not like there's some big salary they're taking on. I mean, shoot, I think he's got a very, he's only, he's 1.5 million next year, unless if this were to work out and you wanted to have him there. You know, that's a good situation contractually, I think, from a Detroit standpoint, too. So I love the move. You know, I think there's a history of some of these guys right at about this age. You know, Von Miller was 32 when the Rams picked him up. And Zerias Smith isn't, you know, at his best, as great as

as Von Miller was, but still a good veteran pass rusher who's going to benefit from a new environment. If you look at this little bit of the, not only the DeAndre Hopkins factor from going to a good situation, but I also think the on-field situation is better too. Because in Cleveland, they're almost always behind or have been. And you're not really in those favorable positions.

He's now like an acrobatic basketball player who can get out in the fast break. You're running now with Showtime. And you're going to get the ball for some dunks and transition. And you're, you know, you're going to be able to, in a big game, in Detroit to go against the replacement for Christian Derisaw in a big moment maybe, right? And maybe make a big sack and a forced fumble when the lights are on and it's loud in that stadium in Detroit.

I do like the move. It just makes so much sense. I mean, in every single level, they needed a pass rusher. Even the body types they look, they like for their past rushers. He's 6-4-275. He's huge. You can play the run. The thing I'm most curious about just from like a naughty X's a nose standpoint, he's done a lot

of his damage this year lined up inside. And this is something he's done forever. I mean, you think back to when he was in Baltimore. They were using him as like a spinner over the center in those pass rush looks. The lions right now, I mean, some of their best pass rushing is coming from the inside. We didn't really talk about this in our recap of the Lions Packers game. Ali McNeil looks awesome. He is playing really, really good football now that he's back in the lineup.

So I wonder for Detroit if this means that Zadaria Smith is going to be more of a traditional edge rusher in those sorts of situations. Does that take away a little bit of what makes him impactful? but either way, they needed somebody like this in the mix. They do. What I'm very interested in, Robert, is what's his snap duty going to be? Because usually when you're a contender and you add a rusher, sometimes you're giving them 20 snaps a game and you're just getting them through to the playoffs. If they need him to be playing a ton and, you know, base defense and making tackles in the

run game, it's a little bit of a different proposition. It's a little bit maybe riskier, just wear and tear and what it'll be late in the season. So that would be something to look at for them because I think they really need them, you know, when they're making that Super Bowl push. They're going to be, they might be the number one seat even without them, right? They need them in the playoffs. It's a great question. And right now, if you're looking at it, just snap counts from last week. Al-Qadine Muhammad, who was like they got off the street, essentially, played 33 snaps for them was like a starting offense event.

He played a lot for them two weeks ago as well. I wonder if he gets a little, if he gets fewer snaps on early downs for those Adria Smith looks. And maybe James Houston comes in in some of those past rush situations and you can move Zadarias Smith around a little bit. So I assume this will come at the expense of Al-Qaedain Mohammed's early down snaps, which makes total sense. I mean, he's only in there because they've had to endure so many injuries at those spots. I mean, back to even the preseason, they lose John Kaminsky.

I mean, this has been about more than Aidan Hutchinson. They've really chipped away at their depth at that spot. And so this is hopefully a way to steal some of that back by going to get to Darius Smith. The other big headline grabbing one today, this one's awesome, on multiple different levels. Marshawn Lattimore heading to Washington in a splashy move for Adam Peters in that new Washington regime in a season that has been significantly better than I think anybody could have hoped. Washington gives their 2025 third router to the New Orleans. They have an extra third because of Jahan Dotson trade.

And so now you have Marshawn Lattimore coming in there for a Washington team that has been trying to figure out what their outside corner spots look like. You know, they moved Mikey Sainer still out there at one point. So I think this allows them to have a potential star level player when he's still healthy and also maybe slide some other guys back into the roles they anticipated them having coming into the season. Yeah, was it more than a third or just a third? Did they get, was it multiple picks, wasn't it? So it's Lattimore and a fifth to Washington for a third of first. fourth and a sixth. So the fourth and the fifth, like I'm sure that that nets out to like a late round pick. So the third rounder, I think is really what matters here if you're the New Orleans and if

you're Washington. I actually, I actually like this for both teams. I believe that Mershon Latimore in that terrible situation in New Orleans where we know we're waiting for two more years to even see the light of day, right? He's not, you're not going to get the best from him there. I just don't believe that. I think he is a go to a different scenario and possibly be a little reborn, right? I mean, some guys just, you get 100% all the time no matter what. But some guys you don't. And I feel like this is one where a change of scenery probably benefits him to go to a winning type of a situation.

Probably has a couple good years left. What are those good years worth to the Saints right now? They need to get younger players. So we can talk about the New Orleans end of it in a minute. But I do feel like for Dan Quinn, you know that you have a defensive head coach and he's going to probably, you know, maximize the use of him and probably gives them a little bit more of ability in man coverage and just to diversify some of the things they're doing, right? Yeah. And I wonder what that's a very good point because they played a lot of cover two throughout this entire season to hide some of those guys. And now potentially when you drop him into the mix, does that give you an opportunity to play a little bit more single high to play a little bit more man if you want to in the right situation?

I wonder on the Washington side, does this mean that St. Ristel bumps back inside and they pull no egg monogamy out there? Or does this mean that they actually move Latimore in there for Benjamin St. Jews? I don't know the answer, but there's half, something's going to have to give there. Ultimately, whatever happens, this is very beneficial for Washington. And now you have the next two years. This reminds me a little bit when you look at the money of it and even the price tag. It's more than the Browns gave up in the trade. But in terms of how much money he has, has left on his deal on how many years he has left. It reminds me a little bit of the Amarer Cooper trade, where Cooper had 20 million, I think, in base salary in each of the next

couple seasons. Latimore has 18 million in each of the next two seasons for his age 29 and age 30 years. And you can move that money around if you're Washington because not if it's guaranteed. It gives you a really good player for potentially a window if you're Washington and you have him under contract for each of the next couple of years. So this is about more than a short-term rental for Washington and that's partially why I like it. Yeah, that's the interesting part of it because as this season unfolded for Washington and they were better than people expected, right? There was talk, hey, would they add a receiver? I don't know.

It's kind of a long-term, still a long-term situation here, right? Well, now you tack on a few more wins and you start thinking, okay, what's a piece we could use? And I think this is a good one at an important position where they didn't have somebody like this. and it doesn't, like you said, mortgage your whole future or anything. He could still be there for a couple of years. No, I think it makes sense. On the same side of this, they don't save any money in 2025. His dead money hit is about the same as his salary cap hit would have been because, you know,

they restructured his deal as they've restructured all of these deals. They still have some work to do, right? So they're going to have to restructure some people. They could potentially get some cap relief if a couple guys retire. But this, to me, at least, signals, okay, we are, open to the idea that we probably have to shed some talent in order to move forward. So even if they're not getting immediate financial relief, this feels like the sort of move, the 2022 Saints would not have been willing to make, but this version of the Saints understand

they have to make. I know, but I didn't know they understood that because they just re-signed Alvin Kamara. When they did that deal, I'm like, what are you doing? Why? And so the reason I like this deal is because their only ticket out is to hit on draft choices. Remember when they did it in 2017 at that great draft guys that bought them a little bit of time. They have to be able to do that, so they have to get picks. And then this prevents them from doing something stupid with Marshawn Latimore in a year or two.

Because you're way out of your exit strategy on this. Let's just say if they had kept him in another year, you don't want to redo him and extend him out, right, and get more leveraged on him when he's 31, 32. No. So I think the tradeoff here was ideally from a cap standpoint, you probably would have made him a post-June 1 and gotten some relief. But you're willing to kind of forego that because you're getting multiple picks. You know, you're getting a three and a four, whatever it was, a six or something. that was probably enough for them to say, okay, we have to have some of these picks and hit on some young guys because otherwise we're just going to be stuck with an unhappy March on Latam or on a losing team. Who wants to have that?

You save, I think, $18 million in cash, which, you know, that's something. And cash. The cash is a big deal. The dead money is it was something we'll think about. But they saved $16, $18 million in cash. We'll do an actual considered look at this at some point. I know a lot of people are losing their minds about how shitty of a situation this answer in. it's undeniably bad okay like we know it's undeniably bad i still think that there is enough that

they can do to move money around next year you you restructure some guys whether it's eric mccoy granderson some of the younger players on your roster but even some guys that are not going to be part of your future or guys like man i can't believe they're restructuring him if you're tacking like three or four void years on to all of these which these contracts all have anyway for the most part, the damage is not going to be that bad if you're having to restructure 6 million here, eight million there. You're adding like $2 million onto your cap for each of the next couple years. It's not that terrible. So I do think that I didn't know that that was available to them though. Is that available? We have to look at that. Maybe you have looked at it. There are so

many. Digging into what their cap situation looks like, it's like trying to read a foreign language. Like all the different void years on there. Everybody's got multiple void years on their contract. I still think that there's no way they can just eat it all next year. That's impossible. They can't do that because they can't really cut anybody that's going to save them a ton of money. But even if they start spreading some of these out over the next few years, it's not that big of a deal when you actually look at the financial ramifications of it into 2026. They're going to have to move some money onto their 2026 books in order to get under the cap next year. But I don't think it's going to be an amount of money that makes an appreciable difference.

for what they can do adding players in 2026. I guess that's the way that I would put it. There's no way for them to take all their medicine in one year, but in order for them to take a good chunk of it, I don't think it's going to necessarily hamstring them that bad starting on that 2026 salary cap. Yeah, okay. That is an interesting exercise.

I think that'd be a fun one to go through someday when you, you probably have to have about four weeks of show prep to get it all laid out. You'd have to have multiple documents open. And an MBA. that I don't have. Financial literacy that I don't have. There's a tolerance that has to happen. We'll bring in a consultant, you know,

athletic football show consultant. I think we'll try to figure it out. At this point, we do need one. And listen, there's tons of stuff that needs to happen. Like, if Derek Carr agrees to a trade,

that is potentially helpful for them. They save $10 million there. That makes it a little bit easier. There are a lot of discussions that are going to have to happen with aging veteran players for the Saints this off season to make this a little bit less painful

on their end. The Raiders need a quarterback. The Raiders need a quarterback, you know. I'm sure somebody's going to need a quarterback heading into next year. All right, let's keep running through these. A few more that I think are particularly interesting. The Steelers make two trades today.

They give a 2025 fifth to go get Mike Williams from the Jets and then a 2025 seventh to go get Preston Smith from the Packers. I think both of these make sense if you're Pittsburgh on a few different levels. So right now, you know, Mike Williams fits what the Steelers want to be on offense. If you look at what they've been doing with Russell Wilson, it's play action bombs away, baby. And so having two guys, big guy, contested catch guy, deep ball option. And now it allows you to maybe move George Pickens around a little bit more than you even were because you feel like you have another big bodied ex-receiver that you can use in that role.

So I think this makes perfect sense for a team that was Trot and Van Jefferson out there a lot more than they wanted to. And then on the Preston Smith side of this, on the Pittsburgh, from the Pittsburgh perspective, T.J. Watt and Alex Highsmith were essentially playing every single snap for the Steelers defense because they had no depth at that spot. They lost one of the herbigs. I can never remember which is which, who's the offensive Wyman and who's the edge rusher. I don't think it really matters. But because he's dinged up right now, they had really no depth at that spot. So now this just gives you another body to hopefully take a little bit of the workload off a Highsmith and watch just to keep him as fresh as possible. I agree. I remember Marcus Golden retired before the year, right?

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Two for them. So I see this as, you know, Green Bay has a bunch of guys, a bunch of pass rush or sort of this big rotation of guys. So they have a lot of depth. But they're a young team and Preston Smith's not really, he hasn't really like taken off in the new scheme or anything like that. So he's a little bit of an odd man out. Steelers the opposite. Need depth.

Need depth. So this makes sense, I think, for both to give a little bit of our depth who's not going to be in the future, right? he's an older player, Preston Smith. Steelers get somebody because they need. Like you said, they got too many guys playing too few guys playing too many snaps. Seems totally logical. Mike Williams was interesting to me because it seems like the Steelers always run into this thing where they've got, is it a maturity issue with Deonté Johnson or Chase Claypool or these guys?

There's always some sort of a thing with these young guys. They kind of hit on them or and then eventually it runs its course and then for whatever reason it's not working. We even wondered if that was going to happen with George Pickens for a while. They get a guy in Mike Williams who's just going to come to work every day, probably, right? There's not going to be drama there. Can he stay healthy? That's a legitimate question.

But we know that he's a solid guy and he's going to fit in. So I like that. Even if he does get hurt, you gave up a 20, 25th. You don't really lose a lot of sleep over that, even if he's not going to be a huge part of who you are down the stretch. And based on what the AFC looks like and what the NFL looks like and what? the Steelers looked like last week against the Giants. I just think that their ceiling offensively is higher than it's been at any point. I don't know in a long time. I mean, probably like the second to third to last Ben Rathesberger season is the last time I can remember feeling this level of

legitimate hope for what the Steelers can be on offense. It's been a while. Their ceiling was so low. Russell Wilson was hitting his head on it when he got there. Okay. Now we got a lot higher. I agree with you. ceiling has been low for a lot of different reasons. I mean, we can talk about what their coordinator position has been in the past or whatever, but you're right. They have a little bit more potential now. It can be a fun team to watch, I think, second half. 2020 was the last time.

So, excuse me. So the second to last battle, Rothesberger season, the Steelers were actually okay. They scored 26 points a game. Rathesberger threw 33 touchdowns. It was a strange offense. I mean, it just, that was in that era where they were just living in the gun. and that Steelers team, James Conner, had 169 and he was the leading carry getter on that team with 169.

And that was the year where Rothersberger was just, it was working, right? He was getting rid of the ball very quickly, but it was working. In 2021, that was the year where he was getting rid of the ball very quickly and it wasn't not working. So it's been a solid four years since I've had a legitimate sense of excitement might be strong. But there's been this sense of intriguing about what the Steelers can be on offense. So this is a decent spot to be considering their recent history. They have been the empty calorie offense, haven't they, just for a while? It was just like it felt like diminishing returns.

So, yeah, I'm with you. It's not dynamic. It's not amazing. But I want to watch it. I want to see what's going to happen. That is the biggest change is that I am, the idea of sitting and watching it is actually enjoyable to me. And that feels like a pretty big departure for this team.

So good on them for understanding that this is a window for relevance and a window for being a pleasant experience for everybody else and taking advantage of it. sticking in the aFC north this this one is like you alluded to at the beginning i this one's a little bit stranger just because i don't know exactly how it fits feels like a dice roll and not not a lot more the ravens trade for today judevius white we had 2,026 seventh rounder and a 2,027 7th rounder that are being exchanged here which those don't count those are fake picks and i think that kind of speaks to what they're trying to get out of this i don't really know what this is it just feels like a contingency and one more option because even with

Brandon Stevens struggling a little bit relatively compared to what we're used to seeing from him. I still don't know if Trey White right now, who's a guy that got shoved out of the Ramsalina for Akella Weatherspoon who they signed off the street, is going to be an upgrade over what the Ravens have at corner, even if that defense is struggling. I could I could swear when I went to Ravens camp and was just talking to people there, hey, this is the best depth they've had in the secondary in years. maybe not the high end or whatever, but just the depth of this group.

And so now it must be even better depth now. Trinidadia's white. It doesn't move the needle a lot for me, but in all seriousness, I would love to hear what they're thinking because the Ravens usually have a good solid foundation for what they do, and maybe there is something that I don't know about

that makes us a good move. I'm genuinely curious. I mean, Jalen Armour Davis is hurt right now, so there's a chance that they literally just needed a fourth corner and that's how they were conceiving of this. If that's the case, that's totally fine. And I think the price tag would actually lead you to believe that. But again, Trey White is somebody that...

What's his salary? Yeah, his salary is one half million. His salary's one point five. So that's, that was essentially the case with all of these guys that were moved at the deadline, by the way. Every single player that was moved was on pretty much a bargain basement salary or was on the final year of their rookie deal or with a couple of years left on their rookie deal.

So you're not paying a lot in base salary anyway. So pretty much every single guy that was moved during the deadline was moved without a lot of money left to pay in 2024. A couple more of these here, Khalil Herbert traded to the Bengals for a seventh round pick. It just makes a lot of sense on both ends, I think. The Bears weren't playing him. And now because Zach Moss is out indefinitely, you have somebody that can come in and eat a little bit of the work. So you don't have to give the ball to Chase Brown 35 times a game. As somebody who is heavily invested in Chase Brown for fantasy purposes, this is mildly annoying to me.

But on a football level, I understand why you should do this if you're the Bengals. Well, as somebody who had Zach Moss on his fantasy team here, I wish him all the best, seriously, in his recovery because neck injury, not a good thing. But here's what stood out to me about this one, Robert, is there's been a lot of talk about how the Bengals never make a move, okay? And look, this isn't some major move. But my mind went to, but my mind went to Joe Burroughs sitting there at the podium, and they're asking him about, hey, do you wish this team?

would make a move? They don't make moves. What do you think? And he was a little turts. He was a little bit like, yeah, not my job, not my, you know, not my lane. He didn't say, hey, I got full faith in our operation here, what we do. It was kind of like, yeah, I wish we'd do make a move. So a little bit of my mind thinks that, you know, if Mike Brown were still the GM and he was, you know, 15 years ago and the quarterback said that,

you might not you might not get anybody and i feel like there's probably a little bit more of an open door there with katy blackburn and joe burrow and and so you know maybe there's something to that that joe burroughs got a little juice and they made a move i get that i still would have liked to have seen him does do something on defense if there was going to be some urgency at the deadline here signing a jo doesn't play defense that it's signing a decidedly number two running back it makes sense Right. I mean, going out and doing that, you needed another option, but this is still a team that probably could have used some more reinforcements elsewhere. No one really made a pass rusher move that I expected outside of the Zadarius Smith thing. I'm a little bit surprised that the Ravens didn't try to add a pass rusher to the mix right now.

I mean, they're digging into their pass rush depth and they're really going only too deep at that spot. And I'm really a little bit surprised that Houston didn't add any offensive linemen. And those are really the two gaping holes on contenderish teams or teams that should probably be. in the mix that I expected them to do something and they didn't end up doing anything. And it felt like the pass-risher market wasn't as expensive this year as it was in the past to get those guys. So was there anyone you had in mind that you thought would have been a good, you know, a good addition as a pass-risher that didn't move that was kind of on your list, maybe? I was wondering why the Panthers weren't a little bit more open to the idea of trading

Clowny and why they weren't more aggressive in shopping him, considering where they are right now and how he's almost 30. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Did they say they weren't going to trade him? From what had been reported, I think that there was a little hesitance on their part for dealing him. And I don't know if that's because they didn't want it to seem like it was totally a fire

sale there after trading Deonté Johnson. But it's surprising to me that some of the teams in the mix here that needed past rush help weren't willing to go to a level that entice the Panthers into making that move. because it doesn't seem like the price tag for that, for those teams to find common ground, would be that high. But I don't necessarily know a lot of the specifics about the Panthers mindset when it comes to that.

Yeah, and Janavian Clownies also can be pretty specific about his contract and his money. I've noticed that in the past, not that we're all not, but that's, but I think he's, that's interesting to me. I'm going to look up and see what his, so, yeah, he's signed a two-year deal. So he is under contract for next year.

year as well. You know, one small consideration there, Robert, just could be that two million of his 2025 salary is guaranteed. So if you're looking to make a half year rental for somebody, do you want to be on the hook for that? I suppose that's a possibility. It doesn't seem like a lot of money in the scheme of an NFL operation, but could be. Well, maybe that's why the Panthers weren't willing to do it, because they wanted a little

bit more out of this because he's under contract at a reasonable number next year. and some teams weren't willing to go to that place because this isn't just a half-year rental. I'm sure there were some complications involved here. His base next year is $8.5 and $2 million of that is guaranteed. So, you know, figure that out. Just worth noting, right? Just put it on there that could, the contract could be part of. The contracts are really what are traded a lot of the times in these situations.

And again, that's why I think that there was so much movement here is because all these guys were making next to nothing. And it was pretty easy for pretty much every team to fit this. into what their current financial plans looked like. Let's stay in Carolina here. This was a funny one on a couple different levels. The fact that Jerry comes out this morning and is talking about them trading for a receiver that they really liked.

And that ends up being Jonathan Mingo is just the most perfect thing. So the Cowboys send a 2025 fourth rounder to Carolina to get Jonathan Mingo, who in fairness to Jerry and in fairness to the Cowboys still has two cheap years left on his rookie deal. And I'm sure had like a second round grade for the Cowboys like he had for everybody else.

But the fact that this is the big splash move that the Cowboys were going to make, a guy who couldn't break the rotation for one of the worst offenses in the NFL, I think, says a lot about the current state of the Dallas Cowboys. All Jerry talks about anymore is how he loves guys on rookie contracts that are cheap labor. That's all he talks about. You notice that? Everything's like, well, you got to have a bunch of these guys on these rookie contracts. He'll be going to afford our other guys.

And it's just like he's obsessed with it. So, okay, great. You got a cheap contract on somebody who, you know, there were big question marks when he was drafted. There were teams that really felt like, wait a minute, I know he may, you know, have some physical resemblance to D.K. Metcalf and he went to the same school, but he's not him. This was somebody who was a one-year production player who had durability concerns. And there were people on draft day who didn't have them in the first three rounds teams. So, you know, yeah. part of the thing here we trust part of my concern here is that i just don't know how you're going to use him or how you want to use him because as a rookie the panthers tried to use him as just a traditional receiver where you know we're not even coming coming in there was some discussion is he a scheme touch kind of guy see somebody that we're going to have to manufacture things for they didn't really use him that way and he really struggled as a rookie this year he was playing mostly in blowouts especially early in the season doing some work out of the slot but still you know not not a varied work

workload and not varied usage would make you excited about what he can be as more of a traditional receiver. But even as somebody who's going to be a potential yak guy or a person that you can scheme touches for, he hasn't been that dynamic with the ball in his hands. So I don't know, and I'm just curious, what the Cowboys see as the potential plan and path forward for him other than we had a decent pre-draft grade on him. We got to do something to shut people up. This is what we're going to do. I guess, yeah. I know the The Panthers last year were expecting more from him in terms of his kind of play speed and ability to go open. They just felt, I think that was a little bit of a frustration and why he had a hard time getting going there.

And so, yeah, maybe this is just a draft day grade. Somebody in Dallas liked him. And the thing about the Cowboys is we don't even know, you know, who's going to be calling the offense next year, right? It's an interesting situation, to say the least. Yeah. Now you have a guy that you spent a fourth round pick on that's going to have a new offensive coordinator a new offensive system and we have no idea if those coaches are actually going to

like him. Did they call all the potential coaches and say, what do you guys think about Mingo just in case we hire you? Jerry called Belichick and he was just like, how do you feel about Jonathan Mingo? You like Jonathan Mingo? He got the okay, so they were good to go. Yeah, I'm sure that was the case. Looking ahead to those candidates and really figuring out there, there must be a lot of Mingo fans out there. Let's just put it that

way. We're going to take a quick break and then come back with some of the other news items that aren't trade deadline related, but we haven't gotten a chance to hit over the last couple days. All right, we had some ill-timed movement in the NFL over the last 48 to 72 hours or so that fell into the gap between when we record our Sunday night recap and when we're sitting down to record this. The biggest bombshell of all of that, which alluded to a little bit talking about the

Marchion-Ladamor trade, Dennis Allen fired as the head coach of the New Orleans Saints. Special teams coordinator Darren Rizzi is going to be taking over as their interim head coach. As you were thinking about the same situation, talking to people around the league, Did you feel like this was sort of an inevitability, or was the Dennis Allen move still a little bit surprising for you? It was surprising to me. I thought they would do it after the season. But in fact, I think we were asked last week in our roundtable which ones I thought would open. I didn't think this would open now.

But I will say this, there are certain owner override moments for teams. Okay. So they've lost a bunch of games in a row, but we sort of knew. I think they liked Dennis Allen, whatever. They didn't have, they weren't, you know, they knew it was going to probably not end well for him. at the end of this year. But then you lose to Carolina. So that's a little bit of a wild card type of a thing where the owner then,

let's just, the owner maybe, you could easily see this. They probably thought about whether to do it last off season, right? They probably thought about it. Didn't do it. But they, they had some questions. Now you lose to Carolina and you've already lost six in a row before that. I think this is one where the owner suddenly decides to make a decision. And that's just the way these things happen.

sometimes it definitely surprised me from a timing standpoint uh but like i said when the owner gets mad things happen right now i'm not surprised and not just because they lost the carolina i thought it would happen even sooner than this and maybe they didn't want to pull the plug too early just because they had a lot of injuries they were dealing with a lot of outside circumstances but watching them against the broncos on that thursday night game that's a dead team walking like the amount the lack of effort and just how hapless they looked in that game against Denver. This felt like it was just a matter of time before they ultimately pulled the plug. And I think losing to the Panthers is absolutely the final straw on something like this,

especially when you get some guys back, right? Derek Carr is back, a couple offensive linemen back in the mix, and you're still playing this way. That probably is what ultimately led them to shut the door. The fact that now we have more of our guys back in the mix here and we still look like this. All right. Oh, yeah. That's all I need to see.

I just thought they'd beat Carolina. I think if they beat Carolina, he wouldn't have got fired. right now. But yeah, I mean, you make good points. I just know how Mickey Loomis thinks is a longer term. He's a don't make a quick decision, you know. And so for that to happen to me, it's definitely felt like owner, you know, the owner getting involved. And that's what happens. When they get involved, it happens right now. You said something about just the long term outlook for the Saints that I think is particularly useful. And it's that they just need to start drafting better again, right? Like, we can talk all we want about their cap situation, how much cap hell they're in. And they are.

I don't want to minimize that. I mean, what we're talking about earlier. This is not easy. They're still behind the eight ball and they're still in a significantly worse situation than almost any other team in the league. I just think that stuff is overstated for why the Saints are in a bad spot. The Saints are in a bad spot because they've drafted horrifically over the last three or four years. They have very, very little promising cost control talent on their team. If you look at both sides of the ball, they're missing draft.

draft picks everywhere with some of the moves that they've made. They've missed on so many guys. Just think about Peyton Turner, Isaiah Foskey, all of these guys that are not contributors to this team. They traded two picks to go get Marcus Davenport. He's not on the roster anymore. It's just barren. Even one of their good picks, Ryan Ramcheck, done, basically.

Done. So, yeah. Trading all those picks to move up in the Trevor Penning, Chris Olbe draft. Alave's been consistently hurt. You know, penings are starter for them now pretty much because he has to be, because Ramshack isn't playing, but it's just a really bad situation. So as we think about the long-term view for the Saints here and what it's going to look like over the next two, three years, the cap is going to be an impediment to them being the

team that they want to be. But I think a lot of that gets fixed if they hit on a couple draft picks and they start accruing more draft picks and they get the right coaching staff in there. They only have a cap problem because they have a player problem. Yes. I think that's hard. Everyone thinks it's a cap problem. But it's always a player problem at heart.

You can always, you always have flexibility if you have good players. The problem is when you have a lot of money in bad players. And so that's what's happened to them and they haven't been able to backfill through the draft. So absolutely, that's what has to happen. And if it does, they'll start to get a little bit better. The Dennis Allen hiring in general to me is a signal of where the Saints have gone wrong and where they've had missteps over the last few years. this idea of continuity above all else let's do everything we can to get everything we can out of this group

right we move on from sean peaton let's keep everything the same right let's keep dennis allen as the head coach let's make sure we we keep p car michael as the offensive coordinator right like let's not change too much let's keep riding with this and i think that it was just a fundamental misjudging of what that version of the saints was. That version of the Saints probably wasn't worth hanging on to in the way that they tried to do it with the personnel, with the coaching staff, and with the financial concessions they had to make in order to make it all work. So I just think that this was emblematic of where the Saints have gone wrong in the post-Drew Breeze Sean Payton era. The question now is how much they're going to take a hard left turn in the ways that they're thinking about this roster and in a ways

they're thinking about what the next two to three years ultimately look like. And that we have no idea until the moves start happening. But the Marchion-Latimore thing does feel like a slight signal in a new direction. I get it when you've had such a – Sean Payton was such a big force there and had such good success. So they decided let's try to kind of keep it going. I thought this year in hiring Kubiak as their offensive coordinator, that was the first time they really made a clean break from the offensive system. And so now – And it looked okay for a little bit until everybody got hurt on the offensive line.

Yeah, and so who knows, maybe he's part of the new staff, whatever they're going to do. They could hire an offensive guy. But I be anxious to just kind of see the extent of it structurally, just organizationally. You know, they have, they empowered Sean Payton for a long time, right? What's it going to look like? What's going to kind of be the pecking order there and the type of coach that they have and just how their organization has kind of run? It's been the same for a long time. So, yeah, I think I think this is probably the time to reassess that.

So I want to ask you this because, again, you're somebody that is, Mickey Lewis has been around for a long time. We know what sort of influence he has in that building. Do you feel like him sliding into like a slightly different role in all of this could be part of them looking at a soft reset? Because he's more than just the GM, right? Like he is such a fixture there in terms of how the Bensons have seen him. And, you know, he had roles in a lot of the things that they were doing.

Do you think that there's any sort of chance that as they look, at all of the options they have over the next couple years. He's somebody that could potentially slide into like a president of football operations or advisor role and they could bring a new GM to kind of just keep a new perspective and some fresh blood with this. Yes, but yeah. And he's also over, he's also been involved with the Pelicans too.

That's what I mean. He's been, he's more than just the GM of the NFL. But, but he's not, but he's not really a football GM. Hey, the football GM podcast,

our buddy Randy's there. But he's not really, he, his background's in the cap and business. So I don't think he's ever been, uh, roll up my sleeves in the film room. And you know what? I really like to run this type of a defensive system.

I think he has, you know, empowered the other people, certainly Sean Payton. So I do think there's room to have a, uh, to have somebody who's got the GM title right even, right? And he could be a team president.

or still be in a similar role that he's in now. I do think that that could happen. I just wonder how much they want to turn the page. Is this turning the page with the new coaching staff or is this turning a page with how we approach things as the New Orleans Saints? Because they've just had a great question. Think about how it stayed the same for so long. He's been there for so long.

And we've seen this in the past. I think the best example for me would be the Cardinals, right? The Cardinals had different GMs, but the Cardinals hired from within with the Cardinals. their GMs for like two straight decades. You know, when Moniasse, Ford got there last year, they had to redo everything that they wanted to be as a scouting department,

the language that they used every so often. And I don't think the Saints are as bad of a position as the Cardinals were two years ago when they ended up going to Jonathan Gannon. But I think sometimes when you've reached a low point and when you understand, we've run out of road here, you need to revisit and reconsider everything

about who you are as an organization. And I just wonder if the Saints they're going to be asking themselves those bigger existential questions when it comes to all this. And the question is who asks those questions? Is it the owner? Is it Mickey himself? Because Mickey's kind of a top one. And then who is talking to the owner? That's one thing we don't really know. You know, Tom Benson was the owner for a long time. And he's obviously not the owner anymore. So I don't think we really have a feel. That's why I was a little surprised all of a sudden the coach was fired. That hasn't been their type of MO. And so who is talking to her? Who is going to influence?

this process and what does Mickey want to do, right? And how does he see it? I think it's I think those are unanswered questions right now, but really good ones that need to be asked. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious to see how it ultimately unfolds and where they go from here and how much of a change do we see because this is a team that I think is status quo for a very long time. Reasonably so, they're very successful for a very long time, but I'm curious what sort of bigger questions they're going to be asking themselves. Speaking of teams that need to ask themselves some big questions, the Raiders clean house on the offensive side of the ball with their coaching staff. Offensive coordinator Luke Getzzi, quarterback coach, Rick Skangarrello,

offensive line coach James Craig, all fired. I believe on Sunday night into Monday morning. We really only hit the Getsy part of this on our Sunday recap show. Scott Turner is in as the interim O.C. He's survived through a couple different staffs out there in Vegas. Joe Philbin is the interim offensive line coach. And Norv Turner coming in as a senior offensive advisor for this team with his son as the play caller.

I've let loose on the Raiders. I mean, it's exactly how they drew it up. Exactly, right? So I've let loose on the Raiders a few different times over the last month or so. I've made it know and how I think about this entire situation and then I think it's just an absolute dumpster fire shit show, however you want to talk about it. You come to this with a little bit more consideration and a little bit more of a measured way than I typically do.

And I always appreciate that about you. So I want you to just talk me through how you see the current. regime in Las Vegas. And after talking to people in the league and just considering where this team is, what this signals for what this version of the Raiders actually looks like. I'll put it this way. In the short term, I would rather have Scott and Norv Turner than just Scott Turner. And I'd rather have Scott Turner probably than Getsy if I was going to run the offense.

So they're probably better off right now than they were two weeks ago. But what does it all mean in the end? They hired these guys eight months ago. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously there's desperation and it's a bad position for Antonio Pierce to be in. And you would think there's going to be some major changes at the end of the year. They're obviously not coming back next year.

I would bet you that Norv Turner is not going to be working the full year next year. I thought you meant Antonio Pierce. I thought you meant Antonio Pierce is not coming back next year. Well, I do. Do you think that, do you think that place could turn? I don't think that like there's a turnaround that's inevitable here. I don't have a lot of inherent faith in the people who are making the decisions out there and what this has looked like over the last year or so.

I know that Getsey wasn't their first choice, right? I know they missed out on Cuff Kingsbury. I know they missed out on Chip Kelly. But this is still an offensive staff that you purposely hired coming into the season and to fire them after eight games while benching and then rebrenching and then bringing back your quarterback and now Desmond Ritter's in there. Does anything about what the radar? have felt like over the last calendar year, give you faith about the general direction of where

this franchise is? Oh, no, not at all. This, I mean, I don't have, I don't have any faith in Mark Davis. I mean, look at his record, right? Not good. Listens to people that he probably shouldn't be listening to. Always has a, is here for the locker room. So the players have a lot of say there.

And he even has a former player as his coach. So yeah, there's nothing about it that to me says we're really set up well and this is going to turn out well. And we have a great vision for how we want it to be. So it's interesting. You think that it wouldn't be tenuous at the end of the year. I mean, what if they just keep losing? You know, they're going to run it back? It's hard to justify that in my mind.

Just because nothing about what this group has looked like leads me to believe that there are better things on the horizon. right and maybe i'm being short-sighted here and the quarterback situation is we should consider that more the fact that they didn't really have avenues to a quarterback they had to roll with the stopgap option no matter who it was going to be if they can take a swing at quarterback maybe does it get better i think you're just trying to tell yourself a story there i don't think any answer on the other side outside of like a franchise altering sort of guy that you can pick at the top of the draft like those guys like joe burrow where no matter what else is happening in the organization if you land somebody's like that you're going to enter a new era whether you like it or not. I don't think that guy is walking through the door for the Raiders. And even if he were, I'm not sure I would want this staff to be the group that was overseeing the early part of his career. Well, yeah, there's nothing about it. I mean, Antonio Pierce had basically the thinnest resume of almost any coach you could have

hired, right? Yes. For your head coach. So he's finding his way. Obviously, he's not an expert head coach right. Now, maybe he could become one. But in terms of hiring, managing the staff, all that stuff, he's probably not amazing at it, right? Just based on his resume and based on the results and the things we've seen, like you said, hiring guys, firing them.

I would like to know this. Who was in favor of doing what there in terms of, hey, who was it who wanted to pay Gardner Minshew $15 million or whatever it was, right? Who was it that really wanted to push for Getzi? or who was it who actually really wanted Scott Turner or who blew it in this other thing where we'd missed this guy. I think that those are the types of things behind the scenes that can really matter in terms of what the owner's going to do, right, in terms of who gets blamed for what. Yeah, and we don't really have a sense of that.

But again, I think that's why when it comes to all of this stuff, the way that I've conceived of it and the way that I've framed it is, I don't have faith in the leadership there. I don't have faith in whoever it is collectively that is making these decisions. And with every passing day, I think I have a little bit less of it. How about this? You can't even say who it is that is driving the decisions. You're saying whoever it is, most teams you'd kind of have an idea of like who it is, right? Yes.

And the fact that you don't, I think says a lot. Well, I don't know what Tom Telesco is doing, what Antonio Pierce is pushing for, what Mark Davis is, what the guys Mark Davis was talking to. hiring process, Ken Herock and all these guys that you heard about. I mean, it's kind of a mystery. And you don't really look back, you don't really look through it and see a pattern to it or some thing that made a lot of sense. Let's stick with teams that are feeling a little bit rudderless right now. And that includes the Dallas Cowboys. Doc Prescott likely headed to IR with a hamstring injury. He's going to be out for at least the next four games. By the time this stretch is over, they're probably going to be four and eight, three, and nine. The season's going to be moreover than

it already feels like. I mean, I think it's safe to say we can already be going to turn our heads and turn our attention to what the Cowboys are going to look like in 2025. Do you have any sense for how they're thinking about Mike McCarthy, the future, and just what the next year or so for this organization is probably going to have to look like? Not definitively. You know, I have felt like in letting Mike McCarthy go this deep into it, Jerry Jones is doing two things. One, he feels like a lot of coaches just commit way too much money to, a lot of teams commit way too much money to coaches they're going to fire and he doesn't want to do that.

Because remember Jerry's all about the business component of this. He wants the guys on the cheap contracts. He doesn't want to be the guy who's paying a guy who's not there, even though he could easily afford it. So there was some of that let him get into this. I think he likes working with McCarthy, but I have bought into some of the other scenarios too where who will be the next guy? Would he turn it over a little bit more to somebody with a Belichick?

possibility. I think that Cowboys might be the only team Belichick hasn't criticized at this point. I could be wrong on that. But that's one thing we should do is look at who is Bill Belichick ripping and does that have anything to do with where he's going to go? So I don't really know what they're going to do at the end of the year, but I assumed in letting Mike McCarthy go into the last year of his deal that it was because he had some uncertainty about what he wanted to do. How could you come off of this year and feel like, you know what? I really want to sign up for more of that, right? What's, it's, it's doesn't feel like that would be the natural culmination of this. The interesting part about Dak being injured is if he didn't have the contract, I think it would be very interesting because he just maybe would shut it down and go into free agency. But he's got the contract, so I don't know how that affects what he's going to do. My only real reaction to this is it accelerates how over the Cowboys season is, right? It allows us to pay even less attention to this team than they probably deserved. And it's a little bit less frustrating as a process because I don't have to watch Dak Wallow in that offense for the next month. So just from my perspective, I think this just

cleans up my relationships to the 2024 Cowboys in a way that I appreciate. What happened? The offense was humming last year. Dak was looking really good, wasn't he? I think that a few different things, considerations that I would have there. One, when the offense was humming when they were coming out of the buy, the best stuff that they were doing is just stuff they stole from other teams. That's what the most exciting things about the Cowboys offense were last year, is that they were looking at what teams like the Dolphins were doing and these teams using a lot of motion and just how dynamic those offenses were

and said, we can steal a little bit of that. And I think when they got to the end of the year and they ran out of gas, it was very much a sign that this was not an offense that was innovating on its own terms and they continued doing so deeper into the season. I don't think we ever saw that out of this staff. and you watch what they look like on offense right now, I think that's a confirmation, is that this is a team that is static, it's unimaginative,

the offense feels completely lifeless, everything is 10 times harder than it has to be. I think that is essentially the status quo norm for this group and the small pocket of dynamic play that we saw from them last year is the exception to what the Mike McCarthy offense has looked like in Dallas. Yeah, I have felt like the Cowboys are just increasingly boring to analyze. Very much so.

I feel like there's such a malaise over the jerryness of it all. Just the fact that it's the same old story over and over that I'm not even excited about thinking about what they might do. Doesn't it feel like they're just sort of resigned to being in this same pattern they've been in? I don't get the same excitement I do as when I think about, hey, what could the Saints do? Let's figure our way out of this. Or, hey, if you're Carolina, you know, what would you be thinking? Like, you could get excited about trying to think about some kind of a plan. I feel like it's just so Jerry dominated with the Cowboys that I've done that for 20 years.

Oh, I don't need to do it. This may seem harsh, but I'm going to pose it to you anyway. outside of how expensive their facility is and how much their owner talks to the media, what is the difference right now between the Dallas Cowboys in the way that they do business and the Cincinnati Bengals in the way that they do business? Yeah. Yeah, I think the Cowboys make a lot more money because they don't spend it on the team. Yeah, I agree.

Jerry's all about Jerry's all about the money. I mean, I think he's clearly prioritized his own voice, right? And the business side of it. And he would not trade those things

to have a better chance of winning at a higher level. The Bengals are a team that we always talk about. The Bengals don't really do much. They're not going to spend a ton. They're going to draft and develop their own players. They're not big players in free agency. The Bengals have been more of a player in free agency over the last three or four years than the Cowboys have been.

So all of that malaise is a great word. The fact that our eyes just kind of used to glaze over with the old Bengals and how they added talent and how they did business and just how uninspired and unimaginative and unexciting it often was. That's how I feel about the Cowboys right now. You felt like you were trapped in a box. Yeah, you're trapped in a box. Now, I will say one thing about the, well, this is a little bit similar to the Bengals too. the last three years they did win 70% in their games. So I will give you, you know, that that's okay.

That's not being bad. It kind of feels like the 20, 2014 through 2016 Bengals. Like that, that's more what it feels like than a team that sucks up all of the oxygen in a way that the Cowboys usually do. I love that parallel. This is really good. So the Bengals during that time, they won 60% 14, 15, 16. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you in terms of what the Bengals have been perceived of prioritizing is really not different from what Jerry is prioritizing. Jerry is just worse because there's a level of greed involved with it that you can't ascribe to the Bengals because they're not making money hand over fist in the way the Jerry is. I would love to know what would be different if Jerry Jones hadn't been put in the Hall of Fame. and I'm on these committees and I'm a big believer in don't rush people into the Hall of Fame

when they're still doing their jobs. But if he didn't have a gold jacket, that would be interesting to me. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then I want to pick your brain a little bit about what we think the second half of the NFL season might look like.

Before we get out of here, we haven't had you on the show in a while and I think this is really good timing to have a conversation like this. I'm always so interested in the things that are on your mind and the things that you're paying attention to. And as we get right past Halloween, as we kind of turn our eyes to the second half of the season, what are a couple of things that you really have your eye on as we think about the way that the second half is going to unfold here?

So second half of the year, Justin Herbert, Greg Roman offense chargers. I love this. I love this. If you go, and I'm going to probably write about this soon in my Monday column possibly, but there's some markers there. You know, it's just kind of interesting. I think this is one where Jim Harbaugh has put. this big stamp on the team of style of play and, you know, his game ball presentations are must watch stuff. But that component of it is really interesting to me of like, where are they going to

go? What's it going to look like? And a lot of attention on that defense, rightfully so. But Herbert's playing some pretty good ball in a lot of ways. And I want to see where it goes. Yeah. I'm curious about that too. That's a really good one. I think that not only how does it look this year. But by the end of this year, how much faith do we have in the Roman Herbert partnership and what it can look like when they can add a little bit more talent to the mix? How much faith are we going to have in the foundation and the structure of this thing when they can add a few more pieces to it? I think that's going to be a really big question as we get in the second half of the year. It's a really good one. My next one is the Eagles are quietly six

and two. They're only one game off where they were last year when they were seven and one. and people were saying, wow, it's amazing to have such a good record coming off a Super Bowl loss. A lot of times these teams kind of languish. They just kind of quietly. They were a team, a lot of noise around them early, a lot of Nick Seriani stuff. But we've seen a little bit of shift in how they're playing offense. They've gotten back to the run a little bit more. That's another one where we're talking about Herbert and Rome.

And I'm kind of like, it's not so much hurts and Helen Moore. It is kind of, but it's just more like their operation, right? I mean, if they can just stack some wins here, how do you? good could the Eagles be in? Look at by the end of the year, I think is a interesting question. We've wondered about it. We've had some doubts at times coming into this year, just the staff changes. And not that we didn't like who they hired, we like who they hired, but just the fact that they're, where was Siriani and all of this? It just kind of felt like you could slide off the, you could slide off easily. And, you know, they've stabilized it. So that's another one.

Yeah, I think, I want to have a conversation. I think Derek and I are going to over the next week or so about the Eagles defense because I think that is the biggest thing that's changed for me over the last month or so is that earlier in the year that defense was a below average unit you know that wasn't a disaster they weren't struggling that much but it was a pretty forgettable group and now they've really been playing at a high level over the last month or so I mean they're eighth in defensive weighted DVOA which puts a little bit more stress on the last couple games and so the arrow is very much trending in the right direction for what that defense looks like and and you combine that with the talent level they have on offense.

And suddenly I think that they've become a much more interesting proposition in that second tier of the NFC that's pretty watered down right now. Yep. I have two more. One of them is, hey, what kind of becomes of this Texan season? You know, the Stroud, Sloick was a hot thing at the end of last year. They still have a good record. But, you know, where's that headed with their offensive line situation?

what are we going to feel about them at the end of the year and just kind of where they're going and what they need to do? I don't know that it's a big crisis or anything, but I didn't like at all how it looked in the jet game. I didn't like how Stroud looked. I just didn't like the whole thing. The whole feel of it to me was bad. So, yeah, maybe just a short week here on the road, and that's the way it goes. But we were real excited about that situation by the end of last year. are we going to be as excited six weeks from now?

If it was just the jet game, you can explain that away. The fact that it was that jet game after the way that they played up front against the Packers, that to me is the biggest concern. And this is an ongoing problem. And the way they played against the Packers and the way they played against the Colts and just how many past protection issues they had against the Colts. This is now like a three, four week stretch where this has been a huge, huge issue. And I'm completely with you.

We were excited about that team coming in. and what that offense could look like. The last one for me is just, hey, the NFC West, super bunched up. Arizona is leading it right now. We all think, if we all had to bet, we're putting the money on the 49ers. We think they're going to cross the tape and probably get, you know, win that thing. But what the heck was with these teams? I mean, we could have had the Rams.

Rams were rumored to be possibly selling off the whole farm and then they look like the best team, you know, for a while. And then Arizona just blowing the doors off of Chicago, won some other games by one and two points have teased us at times. I'm not sure what they are, but I'm kind of interested. Seattle,

Gino Smith looks like the greatest quarterback ever, one play, and then he's getting hit 50 times and he's turning it over in the red zone. What is, can we stabilize this thing and figure out what we've got? I'm very interested in this division in the back half. for a lot of different reasons.

I'm excited to see what the Niners look like with McCaffrey. I'm very excited to see what this Rams defense looks like over the second half of the year. Like the young guys up front are really playing well. It seems like they've settled things on the back end a little bit. Obviously, they're healthier on offense. And I'm with you on the Cardinals. I think that there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in Arizona. I skipped this one.

And so we should talk about this now. The Cardinals traded for Baron Browning over the last 24 hours or so. To me, it makes perfect sense. Barron Browning is somebody I've been pretty open about appreciating aspects of his game. He's a really, really good athlete, obviously moved to being an edge rusher into his NFL career, somebody that hasn't been doing it for very long, but we've seen some really intriguing flashes. He was hurt coming into this season and then struggle to really break back into that rotation for

the Broncos because they have players they really like. Jonathan Cooper to sign an extension for them. They have Nick Benito, their pass rushing group. was always going to be the deepest group on their roster. So he's somebody that probably was left without a seat when the music stopped. And in Arizona, there are no barriers to pass rush snaps. They've had to manufacture pretty much everything they've gotten from a pass rush perspective this year. So adding somebody with his twitch and ability on the edge as just a dice roll for a sixth round pick,

is somebody who's going to be hitting free agency next year at 25. I completely understand it from Arizona's perspective. Yeah, there were a couple of these young guys. guys that, you know, Aladrera, Aziz Olajari, right? Ojalari, yeah. Ojalari, yeah. I can read it. I didn't have it on my screen. Or two younger guys that are pretty good players that you'd think you'd want to hold on to, but, you know, were potentially available.

So from a Denver standpoint, I know they signed, re-signed Cooper, but I also sort of get the feel that like Sean Peyton doesn't, is okay trading away someone else's, someone that someone else picked, you know, if that was his guy. I bet they'd have a different role for them. So I like that from an Arizona standpoint. You can take advantage of that sometimes. You know, to them, it's just a let's get a piece. We need more in a rotation and didn't have to give up a lot.

So I like the fact that they made a move. It wasn't a dumb move. Like they're not pretending there's something they're not. But they're like, hey, you got a little momentum here. Let's add another guy and see if it helps us. It's funny. You mentioned Aziz-Ojolari. BJ O'Soujolari was supposed to have a big role for the Cardinals this year.

gets hurt. It's part of the reason that they need a little bit more help on the edge. Darius Robinson's been banged up for them. They've needed a couple pieces. And I think adding somebody that has shown the flashes that Browning has, even if this hasn't been the season, this hasn't been an ideal year for him coming back from injury. He hasn't been that impactful. But we've seen him be a productive player in the past. So totally get it from Arizona's perspective. And I'm glad we hit that. And I'm sorry that I forgot it when we were talking about all the traits. Mike Sando, as always, sir, sincerely appreciate the time. And,

We'll talk to you very soon. Thank you. Enjoyed it, as always. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you very much for joining us. Again, this is going to be coming out on Wednesday morning, so a little bit different than a normal timeline. We will be back on Friday, me and Derek, doing the week 10 preview. Until then, sincerely appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you soon.