The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Trevor Lawrence, Patrick Surtain II, and the rest of 2022's breakout players; Plus, a visit from Lions camp with Colton Pouncy

Episode Date: August 10, 2022

It's one of the best storylines every NFL season. The breakout players who have monster years and set new expectations for themselves. From Trevor Lawrence and Elijah Moore to Patrick Surtain II and Ernest Jones, Robert Mays and Nate Tice find breakouts on both sides of the ball on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Plus, Robert checks in from Lions camp with our beat writer, Colton Pouncy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Wednesday, August 10th. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. I was at Lions Camp earlier this week. I had a really nice chat with our Lions writer at the Athletic Colton Pouncey. Really excited for you guys to hear that.

Before we get to our conversation with Colton, though, I am thrilled to welcome. My good friend, Nate Tice. Nate, how you doing, bud? That's a rag on at Colton a little bit. Do you have his phone off when you guys talked? like they make sure to have that alarm turned off when he kept it off vibrate a little bit. I forgot about that. No, he did great.

What a day one. He's, he's great. Colton is great. I'm really happy to have him aboard. So I am thrilled. So I'm thrilled. Well, we had a really good chat. I mean, obviously a lot of exciting stuff happening there.

And yeah, Jared golf looks so good yesterday. I would their, their offensive skill position players right now with him throwing against guys not wearing pads. Not surprising. And that looks awesome. Also, none of their guys are hurt. So their entire first team offense is playing together right now, which when you bounce around to these different, well, when you bounce around to these different camps, somebody's out.

Every single time you go there, somebody's taking a day off or somebody's on the pop list. Very rarely do you walk in and it's a fully formed offense. And that was my first thought yesterday. I was like, oh, shit, like no one's hurt. Like their entire offensive line is playing their entire arsenal. Obviously, Jameson Williams. But guys that we expected to be ready early in the season are. So he's throwing deep crossers.

to DJ Chark and he had a beautiful corner route to Amun Ross, St. Brown. And you're sitting there watching it like, these guys can be pretty good on offense, I think. I mean, their starting 11 is pretty darn good. So I really enjoyed that conversation. I think you guys will as well. Obviously, there's a lot of buzz around that team right now. Speaking of buzz, today, we are going to dig into our breakout players for 2022. Really enjoyed doing the show last year.

I think I also did it from some random courtyard somewhere in America. because we did it around the same time a year. I'm in Toledo right now. So that's where we're at. That's what's happened in these days. We had some good ones on our list last year. I think Trayvon Diggs was one of the guys on our list last year. I was pretty proud of how it ended up unfolding.

AJ Terrell's as well, right? I think you might have been. Dude, we're just scout corners. Which is so funny because it's actually the position I know the least. So I'm absolutely worthless on that. We are going to talk about a couple corners on this list. I'm sure you guys can predict some of them. We're going to get into some.

weird ones, some ones that may seem obvious, but I still think are worth mentioning. Just a fun exercise. I think trying to predict who's going to take that sort of jump every single year is a great thing to do in early August. And that's exactly where we are right now. I'm going to let you start it off with a guy that I think we're all ready for him to take that jump based on his non-urban Meyer life these days. Trevor Lawrence is the first one on our list and you're driving this train here.

Obviously, you can pick up the breadcrumbs. He's the first overall pick. we all knew what he was supposed to be. I want to know from you, what specifically do you think is going to be better this year with Doug Peterson and a marginally better receiving core? I guess that's how I would frame it. Well, they're going from a G rating or should I say an R rating to a PG rating in that building a little bit, going from Urban Meyer and getting it maybe an adult in a room.

Maybe that analogy doesn't work, but it works in both ways somehow. I actually like it the other way where Doug kind of looks like a Muppet and they're just going in the entire other direction. Yeah, Muppet Christmas there. Yeah, it went from very vulgar to Muppet Christmas there. But it's, um, but with Trevor Lawrence, it's really, we talked about it. I feel like, you know, choochoo with this guy for me. I'm all bored on this train.

Um, it's that he does the hard things. And that's why I think that he'll take a leap forward as he does those hard things. When I say by that is this feel in the pocket. He was top 10 and sack rate as a rookie despite a leaky old line. That was up and down throughout the year. And it seemed like a guy, that offensive line last year is even if they were trying to do the right thing, one guy was messing up a block, which will happen, you know, generally, but not like every play. And it's the right kind of fucking up.

When it's one different guy all the time, because then there is at least hope on the horizon. Mitch and I have talked about that a lot where when you can't seem to get anything going offensively and people are switching off whose fault it is, it's actually a good thing. Because eventually you're going to get all that right and it's going to fall into life. And that's what you're hoping. for. And so with Lawrence, well, one, also the receivers around him, even if we were kind of maybe not as excited as like, oh, we're hoping that maybe he gets a ball winner type on the outside or, you know, they have Marvin Jones, but they're going with, you know,

you don't think Laquan Trudewell is that guy? I do not as much as, you know, actually Laquant Redwell, rewatching it. Dude is kind of, you know, he's embracing kind of the grit work, some of the dirty work. So I mean, you know, it's not really the guy that you want Trotten out for 40 snaps, 50 snaps, but you know, sprinkling a dozen snaps as a glorified tight end. Maybe not that thing. He'll make to kill Harry living the same life. Yes. Yes, they are.

Yes, this is their second life. And it's funny, it's like, I think Levinska Shinald's, like, when Lovitska Shinald has to play 80% of your snaps, 90% of your snaps and do like real receiver things, that's not what he was came into this league to do. But they're using them. I actually think he's almost like treat him like an undersized tight end and he has a future. He's a hell of a blocker.

So two of the guys I brought up. This sums up their receiver room. The highest compliment I'm giving about him is their blocking ability. And those guys were a receiver one or receiver two last year. You wanted to hear about that receiver three, four, and five. But, you know, with Trevor, his movement ability, he has zero fat with his mechanics. It's so fun to watch. He's so twitchy.

He has a great internal clock in his head. So even when routes weren't great, when, you know, even when he had a move and he got knocked off the launch point, you know, because of pressure or something, that ball was getting out right on time. That's how you take a few sacks as you get the ball out under two and a half seconds. And the fact that he was able to progress and he's aggressive, his willingness to try stuff out. The stat that I came across was 16 of the 17 receptions last year when the Jaguars were trailing. And it's also like the Jaguars were like trailing a lot. But, you know, but still, it's kind of a chicken of the egg.

But I liked his ability to try and layer throws in. Even if the situation wasn't ideal, he was trying shit. And I like that. Again, he's doing the hard things. And not being a checkdown Charlie and really, like, even if the situation was garbage, he was still trying things. I think that's cool and a good thing. This is another basketball analogy.

You know, I love these. But I remember John Hollinger, for ESPN, he'd do like player profiles every year, like leading it to the next year. And I loved reading those because it was just kind of cool, especially on the forefront of, you know, advanced stats for basketball. And he had a funny correlation with rookie NBA players. is that the ones with high turnover rates, along with high usage rates, would usually take huge leaps in their second and 30 years because they're trying stuff. They had to hold on to the ball, and they're making mistakes, yeah, but they're trying things.

And that usually meant good things were about to come when the game slowed down for him. And I really think that's the same with Trevor. I really do think that this next year he's going to really try some stuff and push the ball, and as everything around him matures, you know, just off the field and on the field. I think he's going to only reap the benefits of it. So I think he's going to take a major leap forward. He's a different type of quarterback than I expected him to be. When you go back and watch him,

Sando wrote about this in his quarterback tiers, somebody mentioned that he doesn't have that overwhelming physical skill set that you thought he was going to have. And I almost think that's a good thing, where he has these little intangible aspects of the game where he navigates the pocket extremely well and all that stuff that you don't necessarily ascribe to somebody that's 6-6 and had the,

profile as a prospect that he did. So it's almost more encouraging that those underlying elements to the position are things that he already does well. And it's, I'm not saying he just has no arm or things like that. I mean, the guy can rip the ball up the seam. And we've talked about just the ways that, in the areas of the field that he attacks well. But I'm extremely encouraged.

And I think that just working with an adult or adult Muppet or however you want to frame Doug Peterson is ultimately going to be a very, very good thing for him. I think, I think, like, for all our British and English listeners, they're going to get a kick out of that, calling someone a Muppet like that. Like, they're going to think that's great. But, uh, but even his hair and that visor looks fake. It doesn't even look real. Dude, there's, he looks sweet in a Jags uni. Like, that's why I want him to be good, like, because they, they look at, like, hey, they deserve a good quarterback to, like, look at it. Like, remember how good, like, Cam Newton looked in Patriots uniforms? Oh, it's like,

but it's, that really helps, like, really booing a guy. Like, Josh Allen looks great in those Bill Zia unies. It helps when you have a stud quarterback and you get great uniforms with them. But even like John shit. We have reached a, I said this the other day a couple weeks ago. We have reached a peak of quarterback coolness. Like we have come into a world where we have never had more cool quarterbacks in the NFL. And that's stylistically the change that's happened. It makes a lot of sense. But you watch Josh Allen with that red helmet walking out there and just the way that Patrick Mahomes plays and Lamar and there are so many guys like, this position is cool now. When we come out of the quarterback goal day,

an age where having a brain and a vat and playing the position that way was the most impressive thing you can do into this world where guys are just these overwhelming physical specimens combined with the fine-tuned aspects of the position and it's awesome to watch. It's just so much more enjoyable. We have another QB coming out in fur coats now, Joe Burrow. Like this is, you know? I didn't mention Joe Burrow, yes. Yeah.

No, you know, how like we say scheme goes in cycles and stuff like that? Hey, maybe quarterback coolness. It's like Joe Nameth, you know, and then Joe Burrow coming along. You know, Joe Montana was pretty cool, but it's like really, it was only a couple of them at a time. Now it seems like you have to be. It's a prerequisite. Like, Russell is like the exception to proves a rule kind of thing. Like, he's the exception now these days.

I was going to say, though, is John Shipley from the Jaguar Report. He does a great job of kind of, you know, keep tabs on what's happening with the Jaguars. And, of course, when I kind of like some guys, I kind of like, like, like some players, I'm like, you know, maybe a little Twitter search. You know, Rashad White, it's got some Twitter searches going on this camp. But John Shipley said he's only throwing one air reception so far in training camp during team stuff. And that was off by Evan Engram's hands. So he's still pushing that ball. I mean, I've seen some clips already where, yes, it's Twitter clips and all that.

Most of them are one-on-ones. But the reports, you know, it's that he's really, really ripping it. And it looks good and it looks polished. And the coaches are speaking to how much even more it seems like it's slowing down for him. which is pretty awesome to hear about a guy that last year, one of the things I liked was how quickly he was operating. So it's like, wow, wow, we're taking out even that little bit of fat he had. Man, this is, that's pretty exciting stuff.

All right, let's get to number two here. We're caricatures of ourselves. An athletic football show of favorite, and I think justifiably so after his rookie year. Rashad Bateman is number two here. I went back and watched a couple of games from late in this season last year, the Cleveland game in Week 14 specifically. and really everything was on display. I mean, multiple contested catches in traffic,

which actually isn't what he does well. So the idea that he's going up over guys and catching 50-yard touchdowns and making kind of twisting catches combined with the fact that he's really good at getting open, which, spoiler alert, is an important aspect of playing wide receiver in the NFL. He's just checking so many boxes.

And you pointed out something in the piece that you wrote about breakout players earlier this summer. him only playing a scattered few games with Amar Jackson and him getting hurt during training camp and having to step into it midstream. Do you know how fucking hard that is? Oh my God. As a rookie player to come in and miss a huge portion of the offseason and try to get going in the middle of the year without any sort of prep, it's almost impossible.

I mean, you can probably count on one hand how many rookie receivers have had a ton of production after that happened. Odell Beckham is the best example. He missed the first month of the year and came in and was just a lot of the year and came in and was just unbelievable from day one. So the fact that Bateman was a really good player by the end of the season is such an indication to me that he's really ready to take a step forward. I know that we're looking at that receiving core and thinking there are a lot of question

marks, but I feel really good about him. The volume may never be there for him to be a 1,400-yard receiver in this offense with Mark Andrews there. But in terms of on-field impact and what he can be for their passing game, this is to me a rocket ship. I'm ready to climb aboard. I am too. I think he stylistically fits with Lamar as well, much better than even Hollywood Brown did.

And I love his skill set. He has long arms. That's why I liked him because he loves catching in traffic, not loves it, but like he thrives in it. Like he is fine catching over the middle or fine extending those long arms because he has good hands. You can run fast and outstretch and reach for the ball because you trust your hands. You don't do that when you don't trust your hands. Like you alligator arm it, or that might be a little bit scared of it. going over the middle.

But even the stuff like, I love that you brought it up, like the contested catch stuff, is because, yeah, that was a little bit like, like my little blemishes with him or was like, okay, does he have the size to do that stuff? Also is it does he plays bigger than he is. Those arms. The arm length, I think is a big part of it. But when he measured it's, I think it was six foot and three eighths at the combine. I'd say I think I'm looking at it right now.

When he measured six foot three eights at the combine, it was a little bit surprising to people because you and I think both thought he'd be closer to. six two, but he just plays bigger than that. I think the arm length is a big part of it. And on that play specifically, that touchdown against Cleveland, it really stands out. It's like that guy doesn't play like he's six feet tall. It plays much bigger than that. I know.

I kept comparing him to look because I loved him was Reggie Wayne. It was just that they play bigger. And then you look at their size and you're like, oh, that, wow. I thought you'd be like, I remember when I measured them, I, they, the Minnesota, this was the PJ Fleck, I think, Hype Train, was that all those guys weighed about 15 pounds less than that they were listed at or like two inches shorter. And so, Rashad Bateman was listed at like 6-4 in high school.

He's, he's Benjamin buttoning himself. He's slowly getting shorter every single year. That's what he is. He's got to work out his posture. But it's, I love that you brought up the Lamar stuff because that's, I part the kind of the crux of my piece on Rashad or that

couple paragraphs on him was that looking at his stats when he was playing with Lamar, it's like this dude's just a chain mover. Like he just, it's not only that he's catching the ball. He creates a little bit after the catch, which I also like. That's why he's great on those overs because he can catch the ball. And Lamar loves throwing overs and crossers.

And there's like a clip I want to say against the Colts where he's catching it over and getting up field. But he's a chain mover. With Lamar, Rashad Bateman had first downs per route, which is now that I have access to this. This is like I'm moving this from first downs per target. But I'll go back and forth with these. It was 9.1%, which would have been 24th in the NFL if that was the whole season. And that's just above guys like Mike Evans, Mike Williams.

it's a whole percentage point better than Christian Kirk. Like he is an efficient player. And like you said, those counting stats, like the true box score stats might never get there because it's just this offense. But man, it's like if this guy ends up with 80 catches, this guy's going to just 80-something catches. All those are going to be good catches. He's not an empty calories player. And it's one of those I want to like hedge at a little bit. But then I watch him and I'm like, dude, this guy's a stud.

He just is. He's a good football player that understands how to play the receiver position. inside and out and can run every route. And I think he's going to be good in the red zone. Even though he only had one touchdown, one of what helps when he has fields for space and long arms is the red zone. And I think that's where he's, him and Mark Andrews is going to be fun pairing down there.

I think as he eats more targets with Hollywood Brown gown. I just think it's so hard to overstate how behind the eight ball you are when you're coming into that situation. And with a whole off season and him really being their number one receiver and receiver. I think Mark Andrews is still the number one receiving option on this team. I just think he's going to be a different sort of player and he was already good. We talked about this with Matt Harmon last week.

You look at his success rate against man coverage or success rate against press last year. He's right there in the top 20 and everybody ahead of him are superstar players. They're studs. Yeah, it's every single person ahead of him. The guy's right in the range that he's in. I'm looking at the numbers right now.

Cooper Cup is just ahead of him. C.D. Lamb, two spots ahead. Mike Evans, Deante Johnson, D.K. McCaff, Tyree Kill. Terry McLaren. Those are the guys. Those are the guys ahead of him. Those are the guys making 25. $30 million a year.

So I really think he's ready to step into a big role and be a useful NFL player, even if the counting stats and the volume don't ever show up. Fun little nugget that our producer, Michael Bellar, sent around. Bateman played at a 70-catch 910 yards, season-long pace in seven games with Lamar. And that's with the volume questions that we have,

and that's with him stepping in in the middle of the year without any prep. So I think that's worth paying attention to. Sticking with receivers, This is an easy one for me, but I feel like we can't ignore it. I'm ready for Brandon Ayuk. I'm ready for the Brandon I yuk blow-up season. I think he might have been on this list last year.

But I'm willing to run it back. And I'm willing to run it back for this reason. It's not just one or two factors. It's everything. The idea that Kyle is now downright effusive of Brandon I, yuk in public, compared to what he was last year, I think is really important. you know this.

Kyle Ashenehan is extremely picky when it comes to that position specifically. It takes a lot for you to clear that bar where he's going to go out and say, that guy's good. That guy knows what he's doing, especially when you compare it to last year when he's just ragging on him constantly

because he wants more out of him. Brandon Ayuk is as far out of Kyle Shanahan's doghouse right now as you could possibly be. I don't know if you saw it this week. It was really funny. you had a press conference and he said, it's really good

that I'm not the receiver Kyle in noise anymore. It's Danny Gray. That's funny. These guys knew a little project that he gets to yell at every day. So you combine that with just overwhelming physical talent.

When I was there, and I actually want to talk about your observations from Niners Camp because it's one of the only places we've both been to so far here in a second. But when I was there, he made two insane plays. Made it like a 45-yard

kind of twisting catchdown on the sideline from Trey Lance. And then in the red zone, a little bit of a scramble drill, just reached over to our various work for another touchdown. And we've seen that, right? We've seen those flashes from him. That's not surprising. We know the skill set is there. So you have the mental side of it that we know is in place in a way that it never has.

But I think that's come from him. It's come from Kyle that's obvious. You have this skill set. And then you have a quarterback who's the areas of the field he attacks are directly where Brennan Ayuk wants to affect the game. Right. Down the field. Just places. that Jimmy Garoppolo could not attack.

We talked about this with Matt Harmon last week. And that's what it is to me. It's a three-pronged kind of approach for a while. I just think he's in line for a big, big year, even if the Niners passing game overall can be a little bit stop and go with Lance over the course of the season. How many targets do you think Brandi IUC had it last year? There were 20 more yards, air yards.

15. Six. That's insane. That's insane. That's insane. That, like, makes me sick to my stomach. The players around them were, like, Braxton Berrios, Tyler Boyd, Jarvis Slandry. That's a crime.

Like, you should be put in football prison for that. I'm sorry, Jimmy. I, like, that's not okay. I know. And it's going to pick up this year with Tray Lance. You can tell they have chemistry together. It's one of those that's palpable at practice. Like, just even Tray Lance is going to be, maybe he's not the processor at this point in time.

I do think he will figure it out. You can see the flashes there. I'm sure you saw it at practice. You know, Routts on air could be a little sketchy with Tray Lance, because his mechanics are a little bit up and down. But once they get into those team periods, and they get into those scramble drills,

it's going to pick up with Tray Lance. He is just a extending plays. I did a little breakdown with the difference with Tray Lance and Jimmy G. It's just looked at some stats and just eye test stuff. And it was like Tray Lance had like 40% of his throws lasted three or more seconds. Which is not a good thing. No, it's not.

But there is a middle ground to be found. It's a small sample. size big red flashing letters the whole time. But it's that kind of just speaks to 40% is ridiculous people. That's like, I think the league average is like 14%. It's, it's, that's because he is willing to extend the play. But it's so cool because of that receiving core they have and George Kittle. George Kittle, Devo, Samuel, and Brandi and Ayuk were all like in the top, I think I want to say top 12 for yards after the catch.

That's what the offense was for the last few years. Yes. But also in scramble drills. What think of all the scramble drills with like Patrick. Mahomes or Josh Allen. Those guys are on the move. It's not like there's some scramble drills where you're peppering the guy on the outside and they do the Chris Carter like falling out of bounds.

But more scramble drills is like, oh, throwing across, you know, you don't want to throw late over the middle, but throwing a guy as he's on the move and they're creating space, it becomes manned coverage. And it's like, don't you want these guys in man coverage, just torching guys, especially after the catch? I just think they're more conducive to their skill sets. I think they're going to push the ball. I think that's without a doubt what they're leaning into as a team.

He's another chain mover. On third and fourth down last year, he was second of first downs per target, just beyond Mike Evans. He had 20 targets on third and fourth down last year. So 14 of them went for first downs. Like he is just like an efficient player, an explosive player. And so I think it's just that, yeah, the sky's only pointing upwards. We got to remember that he was a junior college player that got drafted very early. Junior college players generally maybe take an extra little bit of time to get adapted to the NFL game.

They only have one or two years or maybe a Power 5 school that to, really learn. And if you're at Arizona State and kind of see what that program's been like, maybe then learn a ton. You know, a lot of slant balls, a lot of glances. And I think now it's like he's learning the real receiver things on top of being a really, really freaky athlete with really good ball skills. So I think he's going to be the classic third year bump receiver.

And I think it's going to be really exciting with him. That whole offense in general is going to be more explosive just because of Tray Lance. So I think I can just only benefit from that. Really quick, 90 seconds. What were your observations from Niners camp? What were your takeaways about Lance? Lance, yes, like I said, is that his mechanics are all over the place still. He's trying.

He's trying to do the right thing. But having said that is once he gets at this team stuff, the team periods, his creation ability is like really fun to watch and he is going to push the ball. It's going to be really, really fun. And I think they're leaning. We've talked about this when we talked about a person was they're leaning into rather being perfect for 12 plays in a row. Let's have Trey Lance create 30 yards out of thin air, either as a runner, a scrambler, or pushing the ball down the field.

And then I have our great run game that gets five, six yards of pop. Other things I kind of picked up, I really think they're trying to make Eli Mitchell the true three-down guy. I know that's like really Shanahan likes to, you know, keep the guys fresh a little bit. But he spoke to how he's really worked on pass protection in this off season, which I think is really interesting. Fantasy players note that is that they were trying to keep him on the field on third down. I think he only had like 20 snaps on third down last year because they just took him off the field. they're like, we do not trust you. And it's not like they have a natural third down back.

They're using use check in a lot of those situations. Correct. Yep. So they're trying to get in all the field. There is. There is. I think that makes total sense. Yeah.

I was shocked at how obvious the difference is when things would break down. Yeah. Part of the reason things were breaking down is that I was watching red zone periods because they did a couple of them that day. And Trey is not seeing it well when it gets condensed like that, which is fine. It's still early, but what could happen laid in the down because of his creation ability? That's just something I wasn't thinking about enough. When I was thinking about the differences between him and Jimmy G.

I was thinking about quarterback-front game and I was thinking about pushing the ball down the field. Those were really the two things that stuck in my mind. And when I talked to, you check about it, the first thing he mentioned was second reaction plays and how we no longer needed to string drives together. We no longer need to be perfect all the time. The margin for error is so much bigger. I actually want to drop in part of the conversation that I had with him because I think that he crystallizes and distills this very well.

As long as we've been here, it's really like we've strived on being on schedule, being ahead of the chains, you know, making plays in the timing of the play. And that's great. But it's not, when it doesn't work, then you're kind of, you know, left looking. Exactly. So to have that extra element, it just adds to your chances. I mean, this is a guy who's watching this every day and this is how he's seeing it. I think it makes perfect sense.

And I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the Trey Lance the IU connection. I think that this is really the chance in the environment that Brandon and I, you can take that leap that we expected from him. Yeah. And real quick, I thought it was notable. There was a quote from a bear's receiver.

I want to say it was Mooney. I could be wrong. But he was talking about how much they more scramble drill now they work with Justin Fields. They didn't do it last year. Yes. And a lot, and I'm on top of it, but a lot of teams do not emphasize it.

And it's something that's frustrated me. with teams, especially as these guys create more and more. It's like, you have to instill it. Usually everybody, you get a scramble drill. What scramble drill is is, hey, the quarterback breaks down. One guy goes high. One guy goes low. You have to have a feel for it, though.

And it's just theory, usually. It's a page in a playbook. You go over it and install. And then also you do it and walk through one time. You're like, okay, check that box. And the fact that I was at a press conference, Juan Jennings talked about that was one of the things they've emphasized with Tray Lance.

And it's like, okay, that's two teams that noted that how much they've worked on scramble drill because their quarterback is willing to create with the ball in its hands. I think that is telling. And the other thing, one last thing is on the defensive side is Fred Warner talked about being a man coverage a little bit more, which I thought was like, oh, okay, that's curious. And then I was like, but it was because of the blitzing stuff. And I think it's the blitzing stuff, but also I think that now they're personnel on the

back end lends to it. Even watching Charverius, because it's so interesting because this defense schematically is much different than what the chiefs do, where the chiefs play a lot of press man, And a lot of the designer stuff that they do is just in a whole different world. But watching the way they were allowing Ward to play quarters in some of those situations, he's just playing press man. That's all they're asking him to do. And the physicality that that's going to inject into the defense on the back end,

combined with some of the other guys they have, I think the defense is a chance to be really good. Really good. Really good. That's why the Trey Lance, anytime you hear, oh, he's struggling in practice. It's like, you got to understand the banshees. he's going against who practice really hard. It's not just guys that know they're good and they go,

you know, thud up right here. No, they compete. That's a really fun to watch. It's a really fun practice to watch because they have a tempo to them and they know they're good. That's a really fun combo to watch. The last thing I want to say, we talk about this all the time, the way that their defensive line plays as a group, watching Chris Kassurik coach is an experience.

I have not seen a position coach, a defensive. offensive line coach specifically, be that engaged during 11 on 11 drills, where he's behind the huddle. He's constantly coaching. When you see the energy those guys play with every single down collectively and then you watch how he coaches them, it makes perfect sense. Samson, Echobam had a press conference when I was there and he was just talking about it. And he goes, if I had been in this defense with him since my rookie year, it would just be an

entirely different ballgame. Like the world would be different. And it's no surprise why guys succeed in these circumstances when you're dropped into it. We're going to get into one of those guys a little bit later on this list. All right. Number four here. I don't know how much time we need to spend on this. Patrick Sartan the second.

He's next, man. He's just next. Everything you hear about him from Broncos camp, this guy is the next guy up. Yeah, this is the easiest one on the list. I even said in my article, I go, this is cheating. Like, I think he can be a legit all pro this year. He's just, he's the perfect corner. Combo size, smart, has lessism.

He's willing to tackle. He understands body positioning. He was coached by Nick Savin and his dad played in the NFL, like for years and years and years. And he's a crazy athlete. Crazy athlete. When you see guys that are that technically proficient coming out of college, it's often because they need to be. Yes. And he's a crazy athlete.

Yes. He's the perfect corner. Like he's a perfect monochore. The, the sad I had. with him, which isn't a perfect set, but he only allowed 5.7 yards per target, which is the same as Denzel Ward. And he did it as a rookie playing in man coverage. They did that fourth highest rate of cover one last year in the entire NFL. The Broncos did. They just went, oh, you're good. We nailed this pick. Okay, we're going to play cover one every single snap and you're going to

lock down Keenan Allen. You're going to lock down Jamar Chase. Like, you got your, we're putting you on you on those guys all game. And he held his own game after game after game. I just think the irony of it is this, the Panthers took J.C. Horn, who I do think is going to be a good player. So he could play man coverage. So he can play man coverage. And then also Pat Sertan gets into the pros, it's like, oh, wow, this guy's a legit locked out. It's Sertan Island, like, already as a rookie, which is that the amount of good rookie corners is, is the list and the I can name at top my head is like on one hand. And the fact that he was very good. And I think it's going to be excellent or elite this year as a second year quarter. It's a rare thing. I was talking to a

couple of their defensive coaches last week about why they might have played so much man last year, because their defense backs coach actually was on the staff last season and carried over as one of those guys, Richard Parker. And I think it was a lot of, it was injury driven because they had so many moving pieces back there. You see that a lot with teams. It's easy as coach to teach. They have a rash of injuries. They say, this is your guy. You don't have to communicate with anyone and you just live in your own world. I don't think you'll see as much man coverage this year. I do think it's a natural change up for this defense. I do you think we're going to see more man overall with this tree, especially on early

downs. It's kind of my hunch just because it's one way to change things up a little bit. If teams are going to be running a lot of zone beaters against you in specific situations, let's play a little bit more man coverage as a counter punch. So I do think you'll see that. But then when you look at the makeup of their defensive back group, K.1 Williams is a nickel corner. Like that's what he is.

So I'm guessing that they're going to try to weaponize Sartan in the ways that the Rams did two years ago with Jalen. Where, all right, if we're playing too high and we're rotating cover three, you're locked on the backside against whoever that is. You are in man coverage. That is your side of the field. We're going to shift everything the other way. And that's how we're going to flip the numbers because he can do that. He can do that in the same way that Jalen could at times for the Rams. And I think being able to have that guy who changes the dynamics of the game for you like he can is unbelievable on defense.

And I do think he's that sort of talent. I really do. Yeah. And we're talking about his coverage skills, but I can't emphasize his size enough because that's the thing with Jaylon Ramsey is that like he's a big dude as well. He could have played safety and he probably will in the later part of his career. Sir Tan is 210, I believe. And all 6-1, like he is, he's got size. 6-2-2-10.

6-2-10. is what he came into the league. And if you watch a move, we talk about Rashad Bateman plays bigger. Certan almost moves smaller, like, at that size. Like, because he's such a fluid athlete. It's such a special combo of traits. And on top of that with an IQ, and he's already been well coached in this entire life. It's a unique talent.

And it's really going to be cool. And I want to see him get unlocked because I think everyone's going to go, wow, this guy's something. And I think that's going to happen this year. All right. Next one here. Another corner for me. I'm going with Greg Newsom from the Browns. I actually reached out to somebody on the Brown staff yesterday,

and I asked between Newsom and Delpit, who would you pick? And he said Delpit, but then I went back and I watched both of them, and I landed on Newsom instead. I just think that we talk about what's kind of heaped down to a rookie corner. The fact that by the end of his time last season, he was splitting his snaps between playing outside and in the slot. You know how hard that is? As a rookie corner to take on both of those roles,

and he did a little bit of everything because there was a couple games, the week 12 game against Baltimore, I went back and rewatch yesterday, and he's playing man coverage against Rashad Bateman out of the slot. A couple weeks later, he's playing a lot of zone out of the slot, and the awareness that you need to understand that is extreme.

He's sticking with Hollywood Brown on double moves outside because his ability to turn and run, he's really smooth and explosive. So just all of the different things he could do by the end of the season as a rookie player. I just think that position group is going to be one we keep talking about this season. They have a lot of talent. I think that defense is going to be pretty good.

And when he's moving inside and out, I just think that we're going to be, he's going to jump off the screen a lot this season. That defense, I think is going to be really good. I think he's going to be a big part of it. I just feel like we're going to be talking about him a lot in 2022. It's fun to watch guys that like going from college to the pros, you can see how much carryover they have. Newsom was such a strong.

smart corner. Like it obviously, where he went to school. But it just understands. He went to Northwestern for people who don't know. But wow. It's like you're going, oh yeah,

Kyle Juice Jack's really interesting to talk to where he goes to school, Harvard. But it's like you understand how to use, he understands how to use his body position. And when I watched him in college, I remember kind of thinking it was like, oh, is he a good athlete? Is he just understanding how to use his body?

And he tested like crazy numbers. He tested so much better than people. So much better. So much better, much a better athlete than I even gave him credit for it. But he's a good enough athlete to take advantage of how smart he is. That's the thing is a lot of times you see these good athletes. They maybe are a step early and they're still a step slow on making the play on the ball. Like they see the play breaking down.

Like they're like, I can't get there. Shoot. It was like me trying to scramble. It's like, oh, I see the whole opening and I don't get to the hole. But it's, I don't, maybe he doesn't have that true, true freaky guy to him. you know, like the Ramses and the shirt hands. He's smaller. I mean, he doesn't have that body type.

He's not an overwhelming athlete. In the NFL right now, he is like the ideal, ideal super number two. Like for corner. He is like just because he, imagine him playing to the field like you're saying, playing in the slot and outside, Downs and Lords on the other side. He has, war gets a harder matchups. Newsom, use your IQ and use your athleticism. Mess stuff up on the other side.

I had a fun conversation with Deontelian Ben Solick actually about Newsom the other day. It's kind of funny. You brought him up. But that's what we all kind of came on. But it's like he's the ideal number two corner in the league right now. And the fact, shoot, that's exciting because he could be a number one for a lot of other teams. They've built this in a very intentional way on the back end, bringing him in. And they just traded Troy Hill this offseason because I feel like they expect him to play in a slot a decent amount.

They have Martin Emerson, who's long that they drafted in the third round and he's an outside corner. And the fact that they feel so comfortable about being able to move Newsom inside of and out like that, I think is really encouraging. They have a lot of flexibility on the back. And I'm actually going to be in Cleveland today. And I'm assuming I'm going to have a lot of conversations about this exact thing. It's easy to get excited about the young players they have on that side of the ball. And he's right there near the top of the list.

But you easily could have thrown Delpit in here. Delpit played really well near the end of the last season. Again, somebody that was hurt a lot early in his career, I think kind of stunted his development, but has come on strong. And J. OK, you could put in here. And what he can be for them. There's so many young players on this team, 22, 23 years old, that there's a lot of room for them to grow and to be a lot better on that

side of the ball this season. I don't think we're talking much about them, understandably so, based on what's going on there. But it's hard to eject how many good players on defense they have out of my brain. All right. Next one here. This was a dual one for both of us. Ernest Jones, the linebacker from the Rams. It's hard to get that Super Bowl performance out of my head and I don't think I'm overrating it because I think that the way he was used in that game and just in the playoffs down the stretch in general for them, I think they found something. I think they found something about how they want to play moving forward and he's going to be a key, key piece of that.

I'm curious why you wanted to put him on here. He's a do stuff player. He just is useful. The comparison I had for him is Andre Carolico. just he's going to fill that box score. That's awesome. That's, I loved Andre Caroleco. That's my favorite cross-smore comparison I think you've ever made.

The length and just they have like a weird kind of way about them. I love that. That's what he is. And he's just, even in the stats, I like looking at the splash plays, which is like, you know, just like a box score stuff for a basketball.

He had a splash play every 20 snaps. Flash plays are pressures that we'd the throw away, sacks, TFLs, PbUs, interceptions. third, fourth down stops. Useful plays. It was, and I think he was top 15 in that number for all linebackers. And that was with him just, you know, not playing a ton of snaps and being a rookie. They had him on special teams for the first like six, seven weeks, and he was barely

playing on defense. And I think they saw some stuff in practice and probably injuries happen. And they're like, let's get this kid a shot. And boy, did he take advantage of it, especially once the playoffs hit and he got healthy again. He's a damn good blitzer. I know we saw that in the Super Bowl. That's what it is to me. That's what it is to me.

So it's small sample-sized theater, but looking at his pass-rushing numbers, he was in his own stratosphere in pressure rate last year from off-ball blitzes. That includes Michael Parsons, by the way. Mike Parsons is a lot of his damage as an actual pass-rusher. Jones had a pressure one every three pass-rush snaps last year. It was the highest rate in the league if you take out minimums, and that's what they figured out to me. If you look at the way their defense is built now with him and Bobby Wagner

and the way that defenses are going, Sean McVeigh, I think, is really interested in the simulated pressure stuff. It gives him a hard time. And the stuff that gives him a hard time he's leaned into on the other side of the ball, if you look at what they did in the Super Bowl, their ability to screw with protections and get Joe Mixon blocking Ernest Jones, he kicked the shit out of Joe Mixon for that game every single time they were one-on-one. But it goes beyond that.

I cannot wait to see how they're going to use those two guys. You know the Saints have that package on third down where they have three defensive linemen in the game and they walk those two linebackers down and you have no idea which four guys are coming and that's how they play with you in passing situations? I think the Rams are going to do that stuff. I think because now we're in a world where they were trying to get linebackers off the field.

Now I think they want to get an edge rusher off the field. So now if they can have Donald, Floyd, and one other guy in there and then they have those two linebackers walked up into the A-gaps, that's how they're going to start to play. with this thing. And it's fun for me because when you look back at really good teams that were good for a long time, the Patriots, you know, aspects of the Steelers, the Ravens, I think, have been relevant for a while.

The Seahawks are another team that really sticks out on defense specifically, where guys rise and fall over the course of a four or five year period. And every single year you have somebody else that steps into prominence. It's like a college program. Yeah, it's just a slightly different version of the teams that we've come to expect from them. This T-Hawks really stick out to me. One year, Richard Sherman's the best player in the defense,

and one year Bobby Wagner's the best player, and one year Michael Bennett's the best player. I think this is it with the Rams, where this version of their defense with this kind of guy, they've never been good in this way, and I think he's going to kind of step into a huge role for them this year in that way. He's 6-2. He's 2.30. He's got that length.

I had a defensive coordinator. I was talking him last week and we were talking about modern linebackers and about how you feel about that guy in coverage and he goes, how many linebackers do you feel good about it in coverage? Right. And I was like, I don't know, four or five. He goes, that's about the number.

So eliminating those plays because anybody you put on them is probably going to be a mismatch. So if I can send that guy going forward more often while not screwing with my numbers in pass protection, that's the nature of these simulated pressures, right? And I think you're going to say, see more of that. And I think he's the perfect player to kind of unlock that version of defense based on his skill set. So I cannot wait to see what we're going to get from him in a full season.

I mean, he came on so strong at the end of last year, and I don't think it's an accident. I think that was a key that Rahim Morris figured out of this is how we can play with this guy, and now we also have Bobby Wagner. And what's the benefit of those, the fronts that they get in, which is kind of like a newer age 3-4 stuff is rather just, okay, a classic 3-4, if you close your eyes, you have the two edge guys, and then you have two pluggers at linebacker, two thumpers. Okay, now we're getting a bunch of edge guys and inside guys that are kind of getting built the same, 230, 240, and, you know, good blitzers, but also solid in coverage. I want to say good. But the thing that's was

simulated, it's like you're bringing up when from those fronts, it's annoying for an offense because, yes, they're only bringing four, but what four? Is it the inside guy coming? Is it the slot coming? is it the edge? You know, but if you got three guys, including a linebacker and the two edge guys, any of them can be a valid dropper or they can be a valid blitzer, it's just a pain. Because when you break down a team,

like if I just went against a three, four team, how I labeled the front is based on who I think the designated rusher is. If I'm playing the Titans, okay, I knew a Rackpo was going to be blitzing and Derek Morgan was going to be dropping more often than not. So I had to tilt the front, how I titled it, to a rack both side. Well, shit, what if they all of them are valid to drop or bring something?

Okay, well, that's just annoying as you're putting together a protection plan. I'm glad he brought up the same stuff because there's some similarities too. I already brought up Andre Carrowanco, but for a football comparison to Demerio Davis. He's the perfect example of this, right? He's the guy that can do a little bit of everything. And if that's the modern type of linebacker that you want, somebody that can rush and cover a little bit, I think that Ernest Jones has the chance to be that guy. Beyond the uncertainty about who's coming, those looks wasting running backs in protection.

I think that's just a huge cheat code. And again, a way to flip the numbers on defense. I think the Rams are very cognizant of that. And he's the type of guy that can really unlock that element of their defense. I'm really excited to watch them this year. The goal is to get all five out for an offense, all five skill guys. And if you have to waste one and they're only rushing four, that's losing. Like there's nothing worse than having like a seven-man slide and they only bring three or four.

But it's even worse when you have a seven-man slide. it's even worse when you have a six-man protection, and the back has to because of his rules, protect, and you're only getting four guys out. And it's like that protection, though, usually it was that even though you're wasting a back and they're bringing five, it's like, well, they're wasting a guy too. Well, if the defense is not wasting a guy,

they have seven in coverage and you're wasting a guy in protection, you're losing already. So you have to have guys that can win and create in space. So that's where you're just getting a schematic advantage as a defense. And that's where a lot of teams are going. All right. Let's get to our next one here. wanted to throw Kyle Dugger on this list. I love it. He was part of the article that you wrote earlier

this summer. Why do you think Kyle Dugger is ready to take that next step? It's so cool watching Patriots defense. We're talking about rise, you know, abs and flows of a defense. And watching throughout the years of Patriots, you know, not only get a lot of DBs that you're like, who the hell is that guy, like a J.C. Jackson. But Dugger was a second round pick. He, small school, Lenore Ryan, by saying that right? Yeah, Lenore Ryan. But he was a tested really well. So it's like, okay, this guy's going to be a project. But he's their Swiss Army knife already. He played a quarter of his snaps in the slot, which is in the 84th percentile for DBs. He is a modern defensive player. Yes. He was fourth in snaps at the linebacker spot amongst

DBs with more than 600 snaps played. So like they're already using them. And on top of that, they'll use them in the post. They'll use them in the box. They'll use them as a pass rusher a little bit, not too much, but a little bit. They use them as a Tampa 2 guy, you know, running down the middle, like carrying a tight end. And this dude is a tight end or racer. They, when they're in man coverage, they put him on the tight end. That, that, it's kind of a tell I've noticed a little bit also. Like that's, so, yeah, but that's a little thing I noticed with him.

But he's really good at it. The Patriots were first in DVOA against tight ends last year. And that's because every time they went in man, they put Dugger on them and they said, lock him down, buddy. And he did a great job. And he's athletic enough to handle receivers as slots get bigger. He's fine. Like, he's totally fine handling.

that he's got range in the post he's a good really good athlete he's a good tackler he's willing to stick his nose in there i mean i'm just a huge fan of him he is a football player and on top of that it's not like a classic patriot football player where you're like this guy wouldn't play anywhere else because you know he's not a great athlete you know he's just smart player he's an unbelievable athlete unbelievable athlete on top of developing IQ that's already it's not theory he's already shown it and i think this next year it's like wow i think he's going to really stand out for people looking at his best comparisons on mock draftable the ones that are physically most similar to him is a fascinating list because it's all the guys used to swiss army knives in the NFL

these days i'm pretty sure terrell edmints is number one i'm pretty sure terrell edmins had the most slot snaps of any safety in the league last season so you're talking about those guys walking down to play over the slot jeremy chin is in the top five and derwin james is right after that so it's all of these safeties that are being used in all these different ways because of the tweeter body type and their athleticism it's really funny and he's the perfect expression of this. He is. It is.

All those guys are what? Low 220's and three. Yeah, it's like 6.162, 220. Running at like sub 4 or 5. That's all of these guys. That's, it's the modern will backer. But it's like, but also, hey, on the next snap, you're going to be, you know, going sideline or, you know, numbers to numbers in the post and having that versatility.

It's, it's, it's, like you say, he's the modern type of that player. And, and it's, he's a really, really fun football player to watch. So I encourage. people when they watch the Patriots this year. You know, he might not want to check out that offense and what a shit show that is at this point in time, it seems like. But this defense, I think he's one of those players that's just like a, check out where 23 is every snap.

Just check them out. Those three guys they have back there with him, Phillips and McCordy, and the ways that they're used and how they all fit together, it's always so fun to watch how the Patriots construct their DB room. I think their cornerback situation is dicey to say the least walking into the season. But that safety group and the ways they deploy them and why they do it that way, it's always worth paying attention to. You always learn something about what defenses are trying to accomplish based on the way they build that group specifically. Right, right, especially the Patriots.

I mean, it's funny. No, it's just he's, I love, I love that you brought up like the Ravens and stuff like that, like just how these guys every three or four years. And it's like, Dugger, I think is, I think he's been tabbed by Belichick as a little bit on like, hey, this is this, this, this. my guy. I think he's got a little special place in his heart right now. And they do. It's so complicated. And there's so many different moving parts. It takes a while for those guys on that team. You don't see guys that just come on like a flash early in their career in their defensive background for the most part. I think it takes a little bit. And he's what, your three? Three from a small school from like a not even like a small small school, D2. Not

one double a D2 one double A fcs. I'm sorry one double I'm sorry fcs schools they get really really mad about that but it's it's that defense is just like how we have like offenses and we're talking about a guy like brandon iuk like man they wow the 49ers use a lot of formation so that's probably probably tough the verbiage this is the defensive version of that hey you're Kyle van noy you are a stand-up like nose on this play you're a linebacker on this play you're an edge on this play they do with the dbs when they're in one by three you got to do this this and this when and three by one you got to do this, this and this. Wow, if they motion, you got to know this, you guys got to switch, you got, you got to carry.

They put so many rules on these guys. And so that's why it takes time. There's a reason that, you know, Belchick likes vets. It's because he can just teach him, go, hey, you know that thing you did with the Eagles. Okay, that's how we do it here as opposed to. You know, when you played Fayetteville State, uh, yeah, that it's, it's a little different, you know, a little different, you know, a little different, uh, learning experience when you get to the NFL. All right. Let's get through the rest of these pretty quick here.

for me, kind of a dual one. I had Elijah Moore and Elijah Vera Tucker. Two Elijah's on the Jets. Different spellings. Different spellings, which is just miserable, but two guys that I think are in a really good spot. Elijah Moore is similar to Rashad Bateman in that, I don't know how the target share is ultimately going to shake out with the Jets, where the pecking order of him and Garrett Wilson ultimately ends up by the end of this season. I don't really care about that shit. Elijah Moore is good at football.

Yep. Watching, and it's funny, it's always fun when we have guys that we talk about before the draft and you have little hunches about what types of pros they're going to be and then their actual profile aligns with that. Elijah Moore is just a receiver. It doesn't matter that he's like 5-9. He's running digs and he's beaten press coverage. He's scored a touchdown against the Eagles where he's shaken Darius Slay and man in the red zone.

He's taking advantage of Xavier and Howard and man on the outside as like a 5-9 guy. We talked about Rashad Bateman and his success rate against man coverage last year and where that ranks among players in the league. I want to look at Elijah Moore against Mancourge last year and perception reception. So the guy's ahead of him. Okay, are you ready for this list? Devante Adams, Stefan Diggs, A.J. Brown, Justin Jefferson, Terry McCorn, Deante Johnson, C.D. Lamb, Tyree Kill, Tyler Lockett, Jamar Chase. That's the end of the list.

Hey, those guys are pretty good. Yeah. So that's pretty good. And for somebody that can operate from the slot, if you need him to for somebody that if I want to pitch him the ball do some wonky shit he's more than capable of doing that with his skill set there's so many exciting things about who he is as a player he's just a receiver he's a little bit undersized but he can line up all over the place and now that he gets to potentially be like a super number two with wilson and how that comes together super excited to watch how that happens yeah i was a fan of him coming out i just kept saying that about him it's like he's just a football player. And I compared him, Brandon Cook's coming out, and I'm sticking with it.

He's a, he got pigeonholed because he was a smaller guy. And everyone's like, wow, there's a lot of slot receivers in this draft. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Lois-Omo is an outside receiver that can play in the slot. It's not the other way around. And that's a great thing. They're not stylistically the same. Their games are different, but it's similar to the conversation about Jahan Dotson from this year. That's exactly it. The same, same exact thing. And that's why I got like really, it was hilarious. He's a, he's a slot burner. I was like, what Jahan Dotson are you guys watching?

It was people just pigeonhole these guys because they look at their size and go, oh, slot. And it's like, no, these guys are ball players. And it looks like Dotson's having a good camp as well. But yeah, I'm glad he brought up his route running. Elijah Moore, good route runner, knows how tempo is stuff, comes out of breaks. He's got really good detail already. I'm sure the Jets coaches love that. You know, Mike LaFour has receiver background and he's a Shanahan guy.

They are very, very detailed with that stuff. And Elijah Moore knows it already. And yeah, you got the jet sweep stuff. The other thing, too, he's already scoring touchdowns. And I know that sounds like, oh, well, of course that's good. But given his size, that shows his feel. Absolutely. And a bunch of different ways, too.

Again, slants for touchdowns. He's explosive plays. He's getting into the end zone in a bunch of different ways. And that's really encouraging. Elijah Vera Tucker. Oh, hold. I'll bring one play with Elijah Moore. This is how much they like him.

I just because I thought it was hilarious. they're playing the Texans, they literally ran a play action with a one man route. And it was Elijah Moore, like a deep girl. One man route, no check down, nothing. Just play action, hard play action. Hey, Elijah, go win. I've only seen like three other receivers get that. My dad did it with Brandon Marshall all the time because they couldn't protect.

They're like, okay, we're wadding this up. Brandon, go get open. And I used to see how it ran him off sometimes. But it's like the fact they're doing that for a rookie, that's pretty cool. Elijah Vera Tucker, there's a reason he was a first round guard. there's reason they went up to go get him. Just rare physical skill set for regard movement skills. Him moving sides, I think, is really the only question about what he could be this year.

If he would stick it on the left side, I would just pencil him in for the Pro Bowl. I think that's the type of development track that he was on. A little bit of a question now with Lincoln Tomlinson coming there. Because it's a small thing, but I think it does matter for young players. But I think overall he's just ready. And the other thing to, I want to touch on very quickly about the Jets, the Mackay-Bectin stuff is rough. Apparently, based on reports, his knee injury is worse than they expected it to be. They had Dwayne Brown in the building earlier this week, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was their solution.

They said, you know, we need an insurance policy here. We can talk him into the fact that he's probably going to get a chance to start. They are rightly, I think, protecting themselves from a worst-case scenario here because they need to know what Zach Wilson is. They need to take that step. and having Dwayne Brown is that breaking case of emergency. If Bechton does miss a decent amount of time with another injury, I think that makes sense to me. It does.

When I was doing my article, my offensive line breakout was between Verituka and Eric McCoy of the Saints Center, who I think is going to take a leap this year if he's healthy. I love Eric McCoy. I think he could be a legit pro bowl, maybe even all pro candidate at Center as he gets his game under him. He's a great athlete. But Verit Tucker as well, great athlete.

The clip that sticks out to me against the box, which was Zach Wilson's best game, was Vera Tucker getting out space on a screen and he hooks Devin White. And it's, I don't know if people knows, Devin White is very fast. And the fast that he,

he reached him and like flips his hips and stays fluid with it. That's impressive stuff, especially for a rookie. His eyes weren't always great, but he's a rookie. And I mean, it was chaotic sometimes with that team.

He played tackles last year in college, moving back inside. Things are moving fast. I'm not worried at all. Like the stuff that he missed, it was like, I get it, buddy. He's not,

he's not missing the, easy play. So I think just another year. And the fact that now he can play both sides, not a bad thing. The fact that now he has a little, you know, got thrown into fire. He's going to get to do both. No, I agree with you. I think he can take a huge leap forward. I think, yeah, he's got pro-bowl potential of it and all over him. Next on this list for me, sticking with interior offensive linemen because I know where it's at, I'm going with Jonah Jackson from the Lions. And I was at Lions camp yesterday, and I asked Ben Johnson, I told him we were doing this. And so we're doing a show about breakout players,

and I was going to put Jonah Jackson in there. And I said, do you think that is right? He's like, absolutely. It would be an incomplete list without him, essentially, was the message that I got. And we were talking about Jackson, and he essentially said he was a third round pick, and he's surrounded by highly drafted players. Decker was a first round pick. Penisou was a top 10 pick.

Frank Ragnow was a first round pick. Vita was a highly paid free agent. He sets the tone in the room. I can see that. It just, how guys go about this? their business, what the mentality is, to be able to have that standing as a third-year player when you're surrounded by guys who are first-round picks, to me, is very impressive. When you watch him in the run game specifically, his explosiveness and the power that he

plays with stands out consistently. Johnson yesterday, when I was talking to him, you could feel how giddy he was about the idea of how many different run schemes they could use. Their offensive line, it's not just power, it's not just. athleticism and movement skills. They have a little bit of everything. I think that by the end of this season, we're going to talk about that line as one of the best in the entire league and a guy like this, even though Jackson was a pro bowler last year because of injury, I don't think most people know who Jonah Jackson is. I think we're going to shine a light on him in a way that he hasn't

gotten attention before. And I think people are going to realize how good he is. He has struggled at times with elements of pass protection. I asked Johnson yesterday, I said, where have you seen the most improvement from him? He's not getting edged by three techniques as much late last season into this year as he did earlier in his career. The power has always been there.

When you watch him play against Cam Hayward last year, he can anchor against Cam Hayward in a way that very few guys consistently can, but it's the in-space aspects of pass protection at the position that maybe we're a little bit less refined for him early in his career. He's really started to tighten that stuff up.

If he does that, there's nothing wrong with his game. He's just a complete player at that position with power, explosiveness, strength that doesn't come along very often, even at that spot. He is a monster. I'm glad you put him on this list.

I couldn't tab them for my article because I said no pro bowlers on the thing. And so that kind of limited me for the offensive line stuff. But dude, he is so light on his feet when he fires off the football. It is, I was, I kind of looked, I was like, all right, does he have a few false starts? Because he's really getting off the ball quickly. He is like only a few in his career. And it was like, it's not an issue.

It's not one of those things. I think most of them were like in his rookie and second year, I believe. He's never on the ground, which means that he's a good athlete. This dude is so light on his feet and he plays nasty. He has clips. I posted one. I had a nice little threat. Lions offense line is so much fun to play just because what you brought up.

It's not just because they're running zone every play or it's like my dad. old teams where you see like a lot of duo and power stuff. It's, they do everything because they're such good athletes and they have power. All of them do. It's that offense line, even last year was so good to watch. And I mean, Sewell's a monster as well. But now you watch in the sense. Oh, I know, I'm getting excited.

But it's just watching them. I'm excited to see them this year. And I mean, like, protecting Jared Gough, it's going to let him maximize that whole offense. But I had a clip where they're playing the Bears on Thanksgiving. and he resets his hands and adjust to the pass rusher, kind of like goes inside, stays balanced,

and then at the end, it's like, okay, there was already a good rep. He tomahawks the defense alignment, and the guy just goes down. So he gets a pancake with a tomahawk, which is his arm.

And it's like, that's because he's bringing some nasty. I mean, he had two, he had two unnecessary roughness penalties last year to speak to his, like, he wants to finish. But it's not,

it's not like in a bad way. It's more that he plays. plays through the whistle. He's not that Trevor Penning stuff. It's more just like, no, he's just an awesome player. And on top of that, he's a monster athlete. I think, dude, this guy, he's got all pro written all over him. I watched him last year, and then I'm glad

you brought him up on this list because I got to rewatch him the last couple of days. And it's like, this guy has some 0.01% to him. Like, this guy is a really good player. And I'm excited that we get to talk about him right now. All right. Last one for me. This is a totally

random one. Yeah, you're going to have to explain this one. I don't know what it was. So I went back and I watched the wild card game. They played against the Cowboys. Yeah. And he's getting some run with the ones because of guys just cycling in and out. Charles of Menahue is the one I'm throwing in here.

If you don't know who that is, he is a backup defensive end for the Niners. And the reason that I wanted to put him on here, he's hitting free agency. And we always joke about who the next guy is. the Chris Kassura career habilitation list is. He's going to be in the Arden Key role this year, where he's that movable pass rusher for them. He's hitting free agency. I wouldn't be surprised at all

if he was somebody by the end of the year that had eight sacks, and he got two years and 18 million from somebody. He's 24 years old. He's got great length. 36 H.R.s. 36. Crazy.

And he actually, I think, has a plan. When you watch him play against him, Tyron Smith in that game last year. It's not just size and length. He's doing some swipe moves. I really do think there's something to his game. Last year, looking at PFF data, there were 11 guys that had a pass rush win rate of 20%. Okay? Here are the 10 guys before Charles Ameadowoo on that list. Max Crosby, Rishon Gary, Miles Garrett, Trey Hendrickson, T.J. Watt, Marcus Davenport, DeBosas, Von Miller, and DeNeal Hunter. The bosses.

Sorry. They were literally next to each other on the list. Literally right next to each other. Of course. Of course, they always are. They always are. It's hilarious. That's the list.

That's it. And I don't know. He's not even a full-time player. He's not even a starter. But watching him in that game last year, he got traded to that team in November. Okay? And he actually had some flashes in Houston. He got traded for a sixth round pick, which isn't nothing.

That is an actual investment for a player mid-season that no one knows about. we talked about earlier in the season, earlier in the show, Samson-Ekobaum saying if I was raised in that defense, what would it be? Now he has an entire off-season in that defense, and their interior defensive line depth is a little bit of a concern. Guys are hurt. We'll see what happens with that group. I could see him moving inside out the way that Arden Key did last year.

He's 280 pounds. I don't think he's going to be a superstar, but just one random guy to throw on this list that I think in like week four, people would be like, who the fuck is Charles Amenahoo? and why does he have five sacks? I just think he has that. I just have a hunch that this guy is going to be somebody that we just notice on a Sunday a few different times this year

because he's got the physical profile. He showed flashes at times. The underlying stats are there. And I think he's just in the right situation to pop every once in a while. It's very random. But I just, for whatever reason, I just couldn't get him out of my head as we were trying to do this. This was, God, I have some hipster takes.

This was a new one for me. So, no, I get it, though. It's he benefits because them figuring out how to use Arden Key, like really is going to help him out. And why I just want to explain it real quick is like the Arden Key role is that, yes, he's an edge, quote unquote. As soon as they get into his pasturacian snaps, he's a nose tackle basically. Yeah. And this is where length helps. I don't know if you like guards, picture a typical NFL guard, you know, mostly SpongeBob Squarepants types, you know, like a little squarely built.

they don't have length. So a guy with 36-inch arms, if he doesn't maybe have that twitch, I mean, I think he way around like a 4-9 something, but it has that twitch to win like that way. Bull rushing isn't a bad way to do it. Pushing the pocket isn't a bad way to do it, especially when you have a bunch of freaks around you with their ears pinned back. No, I get it.

I get it. I can see one of those games, a night game where he just gets unlocked or he gets a good matchup. Too bad you can't play against his own teammate, Dana Brunskill every week. you know but it's it's you know but that is where maybe that's the poor guy i i he's not even starting anymore you're so shitting on him it's like him like two too too at well man i i got to bring them up every time but it's it's i i see this is a funny one he only has seven starts in three years i watched three games of him last night i was cracking up the entire time i was like i

was so glad he brought the arden key stuff because i was like i that's exactly how they're going to use them and i saw it practice too a little bit so uh no this was this was a funny one but i'm glad we got to talk about it because that defense line is so much fun to watch and like you said they get that little boost they get the little 30% boost when they go into that defense line where there were so many obvious ones in the list we have fucking Trevor Lawrence is the first person that we talked about I was Patrick Sartan I was just like I'm gonna throw one random guy on here because guess what if he hits I look like a goddamn genius and if he doesn't no one's gonna remember this that's like the other one I want to bring up was Nassir Adderley for the chargers I want to go I want to fire off these ones so I can like just hedge my bets Albert O the Broncos. That was one on my list. Christian Barmore for the Patriots and Gabriel Davis. I'm just going to fire those ones off real quick so I can come back to this next year and go like, hey, hey, that one guy I spent one sentence on. Yeah, there we are. All right. That's all we got. It's time to get to Colton. We're going to have actual conversations about actual football things. All right. I am thrilled now to be sitting in a soundproof room in the Detroit Lions media room

with our new Lions writer at the athletic. Colin Ponzi. Colton, how are you? I'm good, man. It's good to be on here with you. I haven't seen you in, I don't know, probably 10 years. It's been a minute, yeah. When you were in college was the last time that I saw you. You used to speak to my classes when I was at a zoo. You're making me feel real old now. I've done the same as I graduated.

How long have you been on this job? It's very new. Yeah, so I think my first day was probably technically July 1st. Okay. So it's been a little over a month. You know, we've been at training camp for two weeks now. And it's been nice to actually like see some faces, you know, get to meet some people and have those conversations because really my first couple weeks in the job, it's like we're just kind of

passing time until training camp starts. So you're actually getting out here and talking to people. It's been awesome. So you have an interesting perspective on this. You've come to this team at a time when I think there's a lot of excitement around this team. Yes. You know, obviously the Dan Campbell aspect of this was a source of intrigue even going back to last year.

But this is the Hard Knocks team. I think that they're a trendy pick to be maybe like a sneaky wildcar team this year. There is a sense of optimism brewing around the Detroit Lions that is fairly forward. to those of us who've watched the Lions for a while. What has your feel been so far in the first few weeks, first month you've been on the job? A lot of buzz for sure. And I tried to like verify this with some people that actually live here and grew up here to see like, is this just in my head or is this actually real? And basically everything I've gotten back has been like, there's a lot of buzz.

You know, people are excited about this Lions team. Even if they go like, you know, six and 11, like I still think people are going to be happy with that because, you know, 313 and one last year. I think they liked how they finished down the stretch of that season. People love Dan Campbell. He's very personal. His entire coaching staff is, like there are a lot of likable guys on the staff, a lot of former players.

So people, I think, can relate to that in a way, and they might recognize some of those faces. And then I think when you look at this franchise, you know, they've obviously had some rough years, but, you know,

when you have a guy like Dan Campbell kind of leading the charge and he's so optimistic and positive and he's really a football guy at heart too. I think he's got the best of both worlds where, you know, likable guy, personal guy, but, you know, don't underestimate his exes and nose. And I think with the science team, a young roster, I think the fan base will kind of get to grow with this team over the years. And they're excited to see what they can do in your two for

sure. I want to talk about the coaching staff, because I totally agree with you. And you talked to guys on the staff when I was here last year. I talked with Aaron Glenn, who's a defensive coordinator and Aubrey Pleasant, who passing game coordinator, is his actual title. He was a secondary coach in LA with the Rams, consider kind of an up-and-coming guy. I talked to Ben Johnson today, who's their offensive coordinator he's 36 years old and like you said kelvin shepherd is on this staff do staley is on this staff randallel al Antoine andoine randrewell uh Hank fraley is their offensive line coach he played a decade in the league based on the conversations you've had with players or just your observations so

far why do you think that matters having a staff that's kind of that filled with personality communicators just the way they operate you can see it during practice i'm wondering if you've gotten a sense of how the players connect to that. Because I do think it's a huge selling point for this team right now. It is. And I think if you look at the way the roster is constructed, you know, Brad Holmes has drafted a lot of young players.

I mean, there are a lot of young players on this team in general, but there are also a lot of, veterans that kind of lost their way at their previous stop that are trying to, like, get their career back on started. So Charles Harris. Charles Harris is a perfect example of that, you know, I think four years in Miami,

had a breakout season last year with the Lions, and I think more is expected of him this year. So perfect example there. But when you look at the roster, Yeah, you got a mix of young guys and then some guys like that where a former player can relate to both sides. No matter where you are in your journey, if you're a young guy like that, they can kind of show you the ropes for your veteran. You have some coaching coaches on the staff like Kelvin Shepard, for example, a linebacker that's had 100 tackle season but has also been cut from some roster. So he's kind of seen both sides of that.

It's a great part. Guys love him. You know, very personal, like I mentioned, with some of those guys. So I think when you have a coaching staff that's kind of been constructed with former players, you know, players. I think part of that was intentional. I think, you know, Dan Campbell's going to hire the right guy for the job, in his opinion. But also, I do think that that was a factor in some of those hires. And when you have, you know, a ton of those guys across the board, you know, I think they feel pretty good about the leadership at the top and being able to guide such a unique roster the way it's currently constructed. So let's go back to Charles Harris, because when I look at this team, we'll get to the offense, which I think there's a lot of reason for optimism and the pieces fit together in a way I think is very cool. Some quarterback questions about what the next couple of years look like, but we'll save that. defense, I don't really get it. And that's not a criticism, but when you look at, like, Charles Harris, for example,

is Romeo O'Quara expected to be a big piece on this team at Drusher? Now they have Aidan Hutchinson. They didn't really spend a lot of resources on corner. And when you look at their cornerback room, that seems like kind of a question. So where are your kind of biggest things you need answered on defense as far as the personnel goes? Because there's a lot of murkiness there to me. I think they're starting to get some answers along the defensive line. I think they probably feel somewhat okay with that position right now.

But I would point to maybe the linebacker situation where you have a guy like Alex Anzolone on a one-year deal right now. I think he's probably more of a stopgap at this point in his career. You know, you have some young guys like Derek Barnes. You know, I think he had a pretty rough rookie year last year, kind of figuring things out along the way. I'm not sure he's turned that corner. Yeah, I think they would love nothing more than for him to kind of step in and be that starting linebacker that they can build around, but he hasn't really shown it yet. So I think you got some questions there. and then like you mentioned, the secondary, not a ton of resources spent there.

I mean, Jeff Okuda, the third overall pick a couple years ago, but, you know, this regime didn't draft him. And he's kind of had a rough go ahead. That's putting it gently there. Pretty rough rookie season. Last year, he's got the Achilles. This year, we're kind of all waiting to see what he can do. And then around him, I think Tracy Walker is a good player. He's a dependable player back at safety.

And they committed to him, right? Financially. He's going to be a part of this. And he told us the other day he had some options to go elsewhere, a little more money, but he wanted to be a part of this and kind of see the, things turn around a little bit. So I think it's good to have a guy like that that actually wants to be here. Totally.

He's kind of stepping up into a leader in the secondary. But, you know, other than him, they brought into Sean Elliott from Baltimore. I think they feel good about him. But, you know, we'll see where he's at. And then the other cornerbacks, you know, they've got Amani Oruarrier. Good for you. He's kind of like, yeah, I tried that. I think I got it.

But we'll go back later. You know, he's kind of there de facto number one right now. And I'm not sure if he's a number one on a good team. That's a frightening proposition. That's kind of frightening. It kind of feels like, and Mike Hughes is a really good example of this too, right? You get a guy who has bounced around a little bit, and Kansas City has built their cornerback room similarly over the last few years.

There's a low value assets. Let's see what happens. And that's kind of what the secondary feels like. There's putting a bunch of dice in the cup, shaking it up and seeing what comes out. That's okay. And that's, we were talking about this a little bit earlier today. That feels like a bet on Aubrey Plaza and Aaron Glenn. No doubt.

Where you feel like, all right, my secondary coach is really fucking good. He's turned Darius Williams into guys getting $10 million a year. Troy Hill's getting big money contracts, not guys that were big time investments for the Rams, and you've seen what's happened over there. So it feels like even though they didn't really spend on that group, they're hoping that all of these cheap dice rolls, Kirby Joseph in the third round,

Melophone Wu, Jerry Jacobs when he eventually gets back, who played very well last year. We're going to find a workable group from these six to seven guys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the plan at this point. No, you're spot on, and that's kind of been my take since I got it and started learning about this position group is that they just have so much trust and pleasant and Glenn to kind of get the most of these guys that they have.

Like from the outside looking at, I get it. I get, you know, oh, you have a kuda, but who else have you actually like invested in? What resources are you putting towards that position? But when you look at the two guys they have and how they feel about them leading this position room, they feel really good about it. It doesn't matter where they're getting these guys. Undrafted guys are getting action. You know, they converted Will Harris, who was a safety last year. He's now in the mix to be a starting corner along the.

with Jeff Okuda, those two are kind of going at it. Just sets off alarm bells for me, man. A little bit, but that's kind of where they are. You know, they, it's kind of intentional the way they've done it. They could have, you know, gone up in the second round and gotten Brisker from Penn State. They chose to kind of, you know, they went another way, got Josh Pascal in the second round, a defensive lineman, got Kirby Joseph in the third. So I think they trust their evaluation and they trust the coaches to be able to get the most out of those guys. So that brings me to Josh Pascal.

It's third and seven. You got to have it. It's week eight. So theoretically, all the guys that are on Pup now are back healthy. What does the defensive line look like? Ooh, that's a good question. So I'm imagining Charles and Aden, I guess if Romeo's back by then, maybe, he's out there for sure. So when he's healthy, you feel like he is still a part of their plan?

Yes, very much so. We talked to me earlier day. I think he's coming along with his rehab, but it's still going to take some time. Okay. Probably like around mid-season, I would guess. Gotcha. But Aiden, they love what Aiden's been doing so far. They kind of say that he's like a spun soaking up everything around him.

They do love Charles. So I think he'll be out there. I think what Pachal is healthy. You know, I think he played some defensive band in college. I think they would like to move him inside. Gotcha. Okay. Take care of his, you know, take advantage of his past rushing skills from the inside versus.

Because he's at tweener, right? He weighs like 275. And that's kind of what, that's in my mind. That's what I'm asking. It's like, how do the pieces fit together? They have so many bodies there. and different types of players, and they've spent a lot of capital there. You look at those third round pick last year, McNeil,

O'Oenzerike was a second round pick, Pasco was a second round pick. So how that shakes out with all of the pieces you've added there? That's just one of the questions I have in my mind about this team. Sure. I think they're trying to stockpile a lot of interior guys and kind of made the best man win, basically, when you're stockpiling those guys and you get them all out in the field,

let them battle out, and we'll see it wins. Anybody on that defensive side that you feel like is really popped in camp, somebody that we should be thinking about keeping an eye on as things move forward because it seems like there are a lot of opportunities up for grabs on that side of the ball. Yeah, I talked about the lineback position, how there are some questions there. One guy who's really been flashing has been a rookie six-round pick, Malcolm Rodriguez. He came from Oklahoma State. He's a guy they like a lot. And Nick Baumgart and I kind of did a film piece on him before training camp started just kind of going back, watching his college tape together and breaking it down. I think he's a perfect Dan Campbell player.

Like they got similar personality. He's like this year's a former wrestler. It shows on the field. Like he's taking dudes down, wrap them up and everything. And he's got that personality too that I think is going to be a perfect fit. When he's ready, I think they're still trying to play it slow with him. But it's also tempting to just throw him in there, give him some first team reps, which is what they've been doing. He's mostly been working second and 13.

But every now and then they'll sprinkle in a few of those first team reps just give him a taste. I think he's kind of taking to that right now. So I would not be surprised if sometime midseason he's right there in the mix. maybe not starting yet, but he'll be in that rotation for sure, and we'll keep pushing some of those guys in front of him. How you go about your rebuild in the NFL is fascinating, and every team is a different way of approaching it. But on defense, it feels like they haven't signed a lot of stopgap free agents in the front seven, because what are we doing? We might as well give opportunities to younger guys who can take those jobs and see what we have. We're not winning anything right now anyway.

And I understand that as a strategy. By the way, Malcolm Rodriguez, all quad team, first team. Yes, absolutely ridiculous. That guy is... Some tree trunks out there, yeah. Good Lord. I was like a little bit intimidated by it. So let's move to the offense where I think a lot more is settled.

You know, the offensive line, we know this group. It's really good. They've invested a lot in it. There's nothing but good players. I mean, the fact that Vitae is probably their worst offensive linemen puts you in pretty good shape. He's making a decent amount of money, but not a lot of guys in this team are. So it's a little easier to live with. And the receiving core, you bring in Shark and it makes sense.

It helps all the other pieces kind of, fall into what they need to because now you have that speed stretcher on the outside you can have st brown play inside out which ben jonson today told me they're going to use him in more different roles probably than they did last year perfect you have hockinson and then the two backs again the pieces fit together they're complimentary swift can do some of the things that jemal can't you have jemal's a bruser in certain situations yeah where are your question marks here because to me it's a lot of stuff that on its face like all right i get it i get what this is supposed to look like yeah on paper the starting 11 should be pretty good.

Now, I'm not saying they're going to put up like 40 points a game or anything like that, but I think you like what you have back there. And I think the question for them is health. You know, their offensive line last year didn't play a single snap together. Their starting unit. So that was a big issue. You had guys, as soon as someone got healthy, someone else went down. And that was an issue all throughout the season.

And so right now, I think the good thing about this camp is like there haven't been a ton of injuries. You know, some guys that were expected to be out or out, like Romeo, Quara and, you know, Jameson Williams. He's not healthy yet, but he should be back maybe. a few games in the season, I would guess, but we'll hear more about them. I'm guessing sometime soon. I asked you today on the sideline. I was like, is there anybody on offense that's just not in there right now, guys working back, whatever, and you're like, no, which is very surprising at this time of year.

You don't see that very often at all. Right, and it's been good for them to kind of build that continuity. Not only along the offensive line, but for Jared Goff with his new weapons. You know, he's already built a strong connection with DJ Chark out there. You know, just the deep ball, his catch radius is perfect for Jared Goff. He doesn't have to be perfect out there. You see a guy like Josh Reynolds who came. He was signed and added, I think, after midseason last year,

and you immediately saw the connection that he had from L.A. with Jared Gough. And I think that helped stabilize this wide receiver position. And then Omnarov St. Brown, they want to see him take another step forward. Now, what does that look like? Because he kind of went insane those last, like, five, six games last year. I don't know if he'll have the target share and maybe the production they did, but he can still improve and do little things that he needs to do as a second-year receiver to improve his game and help golf even more.

So I think they like what they have for sure. matter of making sure all those pieces are on the field at the same time, which has been the case so far in camp. The name that Ben Johnson, the offensive coordinator throughout today when I was talking to him about Amon Ra was Jarvis Landry because he was in Miami for years and Jarvis was catching 100 balls during those seasons. So the targets might be there. If that's the type of featured piece they see within the offense and it almost even down the road, you talk about Jameson Williams. When he gets back healthy, he steps in for Reynolds who now gets bumped down a spot and now you have Chark Jameson-Rosson-Raw-Saint-Brown, T.J. Hawkinson, DeAndre Swift when it's third and five. I don't know if it's just me because I'm around this team every day, but that seems like a

pretty solid core. It's a really good group of support. It is a good support system. Yes. The quarterback is the question. He's an enigma, right? I think we kind of know what he is, but like days like today are a perfect example. He was the number one overall pick in the draft.

Yeah. And when the bullets aren't really flying and you're moving at 80% and there's no pads on, he threw a couple seeds today. He had Amon-Ross St. Brown in a corner route that was gorgeous. Like it put it in a shoebox. And then they did one of those big overs-off play action that we know he does very well based on what the LA offense looked like for years. And he hits Chark in stride and it looks great. He had a couple throws last season where he's hitting those seam benders to Hawkinson.

And I think the question is, and it's going to be the question this team has to answer this season and next off season. What is your ceiling as an offense with Jared Gough? I think that they've put a lot around him, and I think it's going to look good in moments. The structure of it and what it looks like is fascinating to me. I was talking to Johnson about just his kind of value system and where he comes from, and he's plucking from a lot of different places. So I think the baseline of what they were in L.A. will be the underlying DNA, a lot of the offense, but they'll shape it in a lot of different ways.

So when you get to that point, it's like, all right, this is the support system. This is the supporting cast. What does that mean with Jared Goff? I think that becomes kind of the central question for this team outside of development on the defensive side of the ball. I agree. And, you know, someone who didn't really watch the lines a ton last year just kind of asking people, what's the perception of golf around here? I think the fan base, they're even kind of split. You have a section that are like, get rid of him, like he's not the guy.

Then you have some people that really want him to succeed here, which I think is interesting. And, you know, if he's able to turn things around, you know, last year it was so tough for him coming in. Like, you're traded for another dude. the team that drafted you first overall that believed in you at one point says you're expendable we want another guy in and then that dude immediately goes and wins a Super Bowl so that's tough so he comes to Detroit last year from what I've heard you know it took him a while to settle in even just the minor things like you know talking people around the building like the facility workers like he didn't know anyone's name all that stuff so it was a really tough spot for him and I think it showed

you know he didn't have a great cast of receivers so I think that was you know point of emphasis this offseason kind of getting him some more pass catchers making him. sure he's comfortable and he looks a lot more comfortable this year. Everyone you talk to says he's settle in, you know, he's taking command of this offense, you know, the little conversations where he's just like, oh, we should do this instead of that. Like, he's having more input in the offense this year. Didn't really have that with Anthony Lynn. I'm not sure if those two really jelled well. So with Ben Johnson coming in and taking that role, he's really tried to incorporate jerk off into those conversations and try to do more things that he did in LA, the things that worked

well and I think when we have some better health along the offensive line the piece that they add around him this offseason like this is a big season for him it's kind of a do-or-die make-or-break season they've surrounded him with everything he needs to be successful and if he's not they've got some options and that's the thing I think that's in the back of his mind I'm sure he knows that but at the same time he's looked really good I think is about as well as you would want to see from him in training camp he's kind of answered all those questions so far even the two throws he let rip today and ben Johnson said to me the confidence is much much higher than it was like last year. I think the guys he's thrown to certainly helps with that time on task

within the offense helps with that. The fact that Ben Johnson has been the play caller since the start, right? It's not mid-season when he's taking over. A lot of reasons to think that we're going to see a better version of golf and a more wide open, aggressive offense, period. But you get to next year is a $30 million cap hit. Yeah. And this team has two first-round picks. And I think they've kind of set themselves up in a really nice way, where we have a support system in a supporting cast that we feel really good about. And if we feel by the end of this season, he's not the guy, have we made ourselves an attractive enough destination

where if one of those veterans pops loose, we can go after that guy? Or can we make a move up the board? If we win six games and we're picking eighth, can we get to number two if a team that already has a quarterback doesn't need another one. So that pivot point at the end of this season, it's there for them.

And I don't want to shoot Jared Gough out of the building already. But I think it's important to keep in mind. when you think about what is this team going to be a year from now two years from now what are we building towards that has to be something you keep in the back of your mind yeah no doubt and i think you know you talked about this on the show the other day talking about you know the teams that kind of get the quarterback last yeah like i could see the lines doing that i mean two first round picks they still have a lot of holes on the roster so if golf does have a good season and he shows improvement and it's enough for you to say hey we can keep this guy around for maybe another year or two and then

you know, push that conversation back a little bit. Maybe you can use those two first and kind of build up the roster continuing to add it in different places. Maybe you get another cornerback. Maybe you target a linebacker in the second round or something like that. And you can still go and draft a quarterback. I think this is a pretty deep class overall. So you can still get a guy in second round or third round if you need it.

Well, let's say you go get one in the first round. Yeah. Let's say you use those two first round picks to move up for one of those guys. This is a team that based on some of the moves they could make, golf has gone in that situation. Michael Brockers, you have $2 million in dead money. You'd have $45 million in cap space pretty quickly and more if you make a couple other small moves.

You can use that rookie quarterback contract then to fill some of those holes. So I think they've given themselves enough flexibility in the way that they've built this thing where it could look pretty good in a hurry if two or three things fall into place. Right. And I think the name of the game is the fact that they have options. Yeah, that's all you need. A lot of different directions. They've given themselves a flexibility to kind of over, you know,

pursuit those different options this offseason, and a lot of it starts with golf. You know, I know a lot of people want to push him out the door, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's back for another year. Even if they drafted a quarterback, he can maybe be a stopgap for someone for a year or two. It's an expensive stopgap, man. It's expensive stopgap. Yeah. But, again, they have options, so it'll be interesting for sure.

I'm excited to see what they do. It'll be interesting to follow. It's a familiar situation for NFL teams right now. You look at your guy and you kind of say, well, he can win with him. But when you look at the landscape of the position, we can win with him is a dangerous, dangerous path. Because you go too far down that path and then you realize where the dead ends are. It's exactly what happened in the ramps and they paid Jerry Gough. And you kind of get to the end of the road and say, we just need somebody who can do more.

And that's the thing with Jared Gough is that when we're out here and it's just helmets and he's just slinging it around, he looks great. But when you start to bring a lot of different loads of pressure and you start to make him play outside of what the structure. of the offense is giving you, that's when you are left wanting a little bit more. And I feel like even if we're excited about this, even if you're trying to spin it as optimistically as possible, when week 18 wraps up and we look back at what the lion's season was, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the conclusion people came to. Yeah. The one thing I keep coming back to with golf is like, they're doing so much for him.

They're tailoring the offense to him. They added more weapons for him. They're trying to give him every opportunity to prove that he can be the guy. and he might not be here in 12 months. You know, it's crazy to think about, but that's kind of the position that he's in. Well, sometimes those things are accomplishing two things at once. They're putting those guys around him,

but they're also putting those guys around the next quarterback, potentially. For sure. So, yeah, draft the Jameson Williams in dropping him in in week six, it looks good for Jared Goff. It also looks good for name veteran quarterback who might be available next year. Yeah. And the other part of that is. Tom Brady.

Right. Just the fact that, you know, they've added so much around him, I just think one of those guys like C. De Stroud and Bryce Young, they look pretty good in this offense with some of those pieces. So he needs everything around to be successful. And that's the thing. It's like, what's the ceiling? Like you mentioned? Like, where can they go with Jared Gough? How far can he take them? And I think a lot of fans would be okay with like eight, nine wins because they haven't done that in a while. And they just want some sort of winning season. But when you start, you know, Brad Holmes didn't come here to win eight, nine games a year. He wants to be a winner. And I'm not sure if Jared. Eric Goff can be the guy that gets you there ultimately. So that'll be a question that they have to answer down the road for sure. All right, let's bring it all the way back to more optimism because I fact that we just kicked Jared golf out of town for a team that we're supposed to be excited about.

Why is Dan Campbell the right guy here? We have not talked about him at all. And I feel like he more than almost any other team in the league has become the central figure for his franchise in a way that head coaches sometimes are but aren't often. You know, like a lot of them, there's a quarterback that's right next to him. They're tied together. You're Andy Reid's and Patrick Mahomes, things like that, your Drew Brees and Sharms. John Peyton. What about him is the reason that this, we should be excited about this team?

You know, he's almost like the Ted Lasso of the NFL right now. Like, everyone just loves this dude. You know, people believe in him. They want a rally behind him. They want a winner. Like every time I tweet about Dan Campbell, someone will reply to it. It doesn't matter if they're a Lions fan or not. They'll be like, man, I really want this dude to succeed here. And I think you get a lot of that. And, you know, for a guy like Dan, like everything I've heard about him, like people across the league love him. He's gained a lot of respect along the way, both as a player and a coach. Like, no one ever says a bad word about him.

It's kind of crazy. But, you know, I think some of that it's like, okay, he's also building up his coaching staff. He's got a lot of smart people. He's made a lot of smart hires. Aaron Glenn will probably be a head coach someday, maybe next year as early as that, you know, if they turn things around here. But he's made a lot of smart hires. I think he's building out his staff and he's laying a foundation what he wants to do. They've got a solid office line in place.

You know, they got a foundational piece in Aidan Hudson. who again these dudes love him you get a guy like Jameson Williams who can stretch the field for you they have some young building blocks Pennix tool another guy you know that they like a lot it's a matter of keep adding to that over time keep some continuity on your staff if you can some of these guys are going to leave but if you can get that you know the general basis of your offense staff still in place defensive staff still in place you can maybe see this thing through you know keep adding through the drafts and everything but again I think it all just comes back to Dan Campbell and just his personality like people want to

be around him. And I think eventually when they position themselves to win, you know, players are going to want to come here and play for that dude. They're going to want to resign here to play for him. So it'll be interesting. They're still building it up. They're not going to compete for Super Bowl this year. But you can kind of see things being laid. And it's been interesting to follow as an outsider. It's Monday afternoon we're recording this. The first episode of Hard Knocks comes out Tuesday. So it has not aired. But I mean, you guys are going to be hearing this after it airs, but we have not seen it yet. So that's why we're not digging into that. I assume your takeaway here is that Jamal Williams is going to be the star of hard back.

He's absolutely going to be the star. He's out there every day asking fans to give him anime gear after practice. And they're coming with like bags and bags of it. It's pretty funny. He's going to be a star for sure. All right. Colton Pazzi, thank you very much, my friend. Congratulations on the new gig.

Excited to have you in our NFL universe here. Glad to be here. Thanks for having you, man. Of course, bud. All right, guys. That's all we got. Thank you to Nate. Thank you to Colton.

That was a really fun show. We will be back tomorrow. Still on the training camp tour. still digging into all of this great time of the year. Please in the meantime, rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'd really appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show is where you can do that.

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