The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Tua Tagovailoa leaves Thursday Night Football with head and neck injuries

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

Robert Mays and Mike Jones discuss Tua Tagovailoa's head and neck injuries and, more importantly, the process that allowed him to take the field in the first place. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. A quick update here for you guys. I know earlier on the feed today, we said that we were going to have a Thursday night football recap between the Bengals and the Dolphins with me and Nate Tice. We're deciding not to do that after what happened with Tuatanga Vailoa on the field tonight. It didn't feel appropriate to spend time examining the X's and O's and what happened on the field during that game. I think it's important to talk about what happened with Tua over the past week, what this means moving forward for the league's concussion protocol, where the NFLPA investigation sits.

Really quickly, just want to update everyone for what we know right now at the time of this recording. Tua has movement in all of his extremity. He has been taken to a level one trauma center in the Cincinnati. Based on what was said during the broadcast, Tew will be discharged from a local hospital, and he is expected to travel back to my with the team. So that's very good news. We want to dig into some more of the context and what has transpired over the past week with this situation. And to help us do that, I am very happy to welcome the athletics, Mike Jones. Hey, no problem, man. Thanks for having me. So you've been writing about this over the course of the week. I'm just curious, where do things stand with the NFL, NFLPA investigation

and it's looking into what happened and what transpired with Tua and the Dolphins on Sunday? It's still going on. I know that the NFL, one of their top executives, Jeff Miller, had said on Wednesday during a conference call with reporters that all indications were that they had determined that the dolphins followed all the protocol for concussions and they were satisfied with that, but they expected an official word to come out within, you know, the coming days or weeks. But when I checked around with people immediately after Tua's injury, during the game, I was told by officials within the NFL Players Association that their investigation is not complete, regardless of what the NFL says, that it is still ongoing and it's something that takes some time. And they did not have a timeline for when it would be complete, but they said that this latest injury to it definitely adds a wrinkle to it. And they are determined to get to the bottom of what happened and, you know, as thoroughly as they possibly can. What was the tone of the reaction that they had? Was it anger, frustration? I'm sure with this

happening in such short order and with some of the kind of catastrophic downsides that can come with him playing so shortly after possibly sustaining a head injury on Sunday, that there has to be some sort of reaction from the people that you're talking to over there at the PA. Yeah, there's some some anger, there's frustration, there's confusion, I think all of the above would fit. Just because, you know, when you see something like that, four days after we saw him stumbling around after getting hit and then, you know, they said, oh, it wasn't a head injury, is a back injury. And then you see something like this, you really, you know, they were already determined

to get to the bottom of things, but something like that, you don't see. see that happen a whole lot. We saw it happen last year to a player, but you don't see it happen a lot, and especially because of the proximity to his previous injury, they really felt like, should this guy have really been out there? And we really need answers on to what went on and why he was back out there. So if you look at the letter of the law, which you wrote about earlier this week, the league's concussion protocol, the phrase that they use, it's essentially a sign that a player has suffered a concussion and is kind of a non-starter for where they sit within the protocol is gross motor inability is the one that jumped out to me. And it seems like when he was

stumbling off the field, that's exactly what he was exhibiting, was gross motor inability. And the league says that they checked all the boxes with this, that they followed the protocol correctly. But I think it's just so difficult for any rational person to look at what happened on Sunday when he was stumbling around on the field and then look at what happened tonight and not think there's some sort of correlation, even if we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves by making that determination. Right. Again, we were not in the locker room afterwards. We were not in any of those conversations, but that did not look like, you know, they said he had a back injury. I've had back injuries. You get stiffened up when you have a back injury. And he was stumbling

and falling down and had to be helped up. That looked really, really bad, really, really scary and concerning. So why that didn't raise a red flag? Maybe it did, and that's when they took them back and checked them. Then, you know, they have a series of test. They have questions. They ask them. They check for, you know, like you said, motor skills. They check for their eyes. They check for the way they're speaking and a number of things. And apparently he checked those boxes. But I don't know just because you check those things, should you have been? been permitted to go back into the game is the thing. Because that just doesn't happen. You don't see guys stumbling around like that. You don't. I mean, I don't know when I've seen a guy that

stumbles around like that and then goes back into a game. You've seen guys who look kind of dazed and then they're like, they're out, they're rolled out with a head injury. I've never seen somebody come back like that now. And so that's the thing that's really confusing. But I guess he checked all the boxes. He answered all the questions fine. But again, do they need to reexamine the protocol? If they determined that it was just the back and nothing to do with the head, okay, but I just don't know how you can see somebody moving like that and feel like it's okay to put him back into a football game. Was he tested it all for a concussion this week after the game or after he passed protocol was just over? Well, that's the real question because

I don't believe so because if you're going by the protocol and if he passed the tests on Sunday and went back into play, unless he reported on Monday, hey, I'm feeling kind of dizzy, then he would have been tested and he would have been entered into concussion protocol. We would have known that he was entered into concussion protocol and he would have had to have a certain amount of days that he would have had to go without symptoms before he could have ramped up. say he did have some symptoms Monday morning, you wouldn't have been cleared from concussion protocol in time to play on Thursday. And so because he passed concussion protocol, when they checked him on Sunday, they wouldn't have checked him again unless he reported something. And again, Thursday's a really quick turnaround. I've seen guys have concussions, get checked for concussions on Sunday, and they're in doubt to play the next Sunday. And sometimes they do. make it back by then. But Thursday is the super fast turnaround because the first thing is you have to be symptom free. You have to run around at a practice non-contact and not have any symptoms the next day.

Then you have to ramp up your activity, you know, and then report no symptoms the day after that. And if you've had a consecutive amount of days with ramped up activity, then you're able to come back to play. And because they played on Thursday, there was not enough time. So that leads me to believe that he did not report any symptoms and was not checked for any symptoms the rest of the week. That quick turnaround is a huge part of this, and it's a huge part of the concern here, because if you suffer two concussions within a span of four days, you can die. Those are the stakes that we're talking about here. And being able to kind of slip past the cracks of whatever that protocol looks like,

and then being able to play four days later puts a player in serious peril and really raises a lot of questions about who has to take responsibility here. And I'm not trying to do out fault. But I think somewhere along the way after what happened with him stumbling around on Sunday, during the concussion protocol testing on the sideline that day, over the last four days, someone should have stepped in here and prevented this from happening. He probably should not have been playing a football game four days after that happened, even if they passed whatever testing happened on the sideline on Sunday.

That just feels like the rational approach and the rational thought here, after what we all saw on Sunday during that game. He definitely should not have gone back into the game on Sunday, I don't believe. But that's the culture of the NFL, and maybe it's something that needs to change, maybe it needs to be examined. But because of what we saw with Tua and how much it looked like a head injury, and then he has this right here, I think that I'd be shocked if the people within inside their organization weren't looking at themselves wondering,

did we miss something? Do we make a mistake here? I'll be really curious to see what they have to say after the game. That's a reasonable response because I'm sure there's some form of, did we make the right decision? Should we have held them out? It's hard not to have those thoughts after you see what happened tonight. And I think that it raises a ton of questions about that short turnaround.

How healthy players should have to be in order to play in a Thursday night game after a Sunday game. I mean, just so many different aspects of this. What are the next couple steps here? from the NFLPA and from this overall investigation. What do they want to know as they kind of sort through all of this right now? Well, they want to know what happened during halftime of Sunday's game, what Tua was tested for. Their investigation will involve talking to all parties involved. They'll examine the medical report because there had to be a medical report filed. And then they'll, you know, find out, okay, what were the steps that were taken from there?

and when was the determination and how was the determination made, that was okay for him to go back into the game. So I don't know where they are in their interview process of talking to individuals. So if they're still in the middle of that, that's going to go on. Who knows if they go back and redirect some questions now after this thing right here? But I was just told that this definitely throws a wrinkle into their investigation. So it means to me that they're going to even go over this with even. finer tooth comb than what they already were doing.

Do you know, can you recall the last time this happened where the PA stepped in and wanted more answers and more information about concussion protocol that happened on the sideline during a game? I don't. I'm trying to think because I don't recall any time where we visibly saw someone like that. we've seen guys who get hit and they're kind of slow to get up and they're checked for a head injury you know but there's nothing that's been that blatantly suspicious or startling I don't know what the word is but or jarring so it's hard to to recall anything um like that the reason that I ask is because it is such a specific sort of instance and it was so jarring and it

is such an exception to what we normally see with this kind of stuff, the way that it handled should have been an exception. Just because he passed the concussion protocol, the idea that this offset an investigation from the NFLPA, the team should have taken much more caution as to how they approach this. Because at a certain point, I think that the team and the people responsible for the organization have to save a player from himself in moments like this. And that's not what happened. And I feel like we've had so many conversations about player safety over the last five years, 10 years since I've started doing this. And the league has pushed this so hard in a public way, in a PR-driven way, that they would lead you to believe and they would want you

to believe that the game is now much safer than it used to be. And that to a certain extent, we're on the other side of these concerns because we're aware of concussions. We know that CTE exists. We know that this is very real. And playing football can lead to head injuries. And because that information is on the table, the players know what's at stake and they're consenting adults making these sorts of decisions. But that's not always the case. The pressures from all of these different forces and from all of these different places push guys to play in these sorts of moments. And I think that it's on the people in charge to make sure that these guys who are, how old is Tua, 25 years old, is not put in this situation, is not asked to do this kind of stuff,

just because he passed one concussion protocol test when we saw him stumble off the field on Sunday. And I think this moment is a reminder of all of that. Right, right, exactly. And so, I mean, it was just what the first week of the season that they had a health and safety call and they thumped their chest about the guardian caps and how they had helped, you know, avoid, you know,

slash a number of concussions and, you know, that they're very vigilant on this here. But here we have a team that was so determined to rush their guy back in there. And look, again, I totally agree with you. You're deadline about having to protect the player from himself because, yeah, Tua wants to prove he's durable. He wants to be out there. There's a lot of pressure and scrutiny on him this year.

And he wants to answer all those questions. He's not thinking about the long term. He's thinking about, I've got to, like, do this right now. And, you know, if he was concussed, how clearly was he thinking? there are all kinds of questions they have to be at play and if they have to modify the policy that if somebody exhibits signs

you know visible signs that they don't go back into that game at least but still I don't know what could have because they say that he cleared everything that turn around to play on Thursday it still it just doesn't sit right with you

even though maybe by the letter of the law they did everything right but that wasn't enough I don't think. I think the letter of the law is exactly the right phrase because I'm not trying to ascribe any malicious intent to what the dolphins did here. I'm not trying to say that they're they're covering this up or they were trying to hide something and they're trying to get one over on people. If you're on that staff or you're in that building, I think in this moment, even if they

did check off all the boxes with the letter of the law and he passed the concussion protocol, I think just taking a step back, should he really play on Thursday? We saw him stumble off the field. Why don't we just give him the week. We'll make it 10 days from the time he last played. Make sure that we're on the other side of whatever that was. Have some more neurological testing. Just do everything you can to make sure that you're not putting him back in harm's way four days after they played that game.

And we could all see what happened. Even if there isn't any nefarious stuff here that's happening or there's anything malicious, I still think that a level of empathy and just general reason can be applied to the way that this was handled in a way that it probably wasn't. No, I totally agree with you. And that's what the NFLPA hopes to find out. It'll be interesting to see every year they kind of make some modifications, some changes to rules. So once this season's over, it'll be interesting to see what changes they do to this. Because, again, if this had have been an offense-alignment and a defense alignment, it would have been, you know, concerning. But because it was a quarterback and a top five,

five-pick high-profile quarterback. This really sheds light on the situation that, yeah, you guys can say everything, but they're still very much the same old, same old going on when it comes to, you know, getting guys back into games as fast as possible. I don't want to leave this conversation without touching on just to his well-being. And, you know, obviously we hope that he comes out of this okay, that everything ends up being fine, that he's healthy. I can't imagine what this moment was like for him after everything that he's been through, for somebody who's been through a traumatic injury a couple years ago and fought back from that. And I think that's the problem with how this has all been handled is that there's a lack of humanity in it. And just thinking about

how frightening that must have been, the fear in that moment. And again, just kind of the human element of all of this. I think that's absolutely worth mentioning an important to mention before we get out of here. And his family as well, you know? Yes. They're watching that thing. I mean, look, like, I got kids. They play sports. They play football. And, you know, you hold your breath as soon as like you see, okay, are they getting up? So everything he's been through, having seen what he went through on Sunday, and then seeing that has got to, I really feel for his family right now. because Tua might not have realized, you know, I mean, at that time, what it looked like, his family saw just like we did. So it's very hard on them as well.

Absolutely. All right. Mike, really appreciate you joining us tonight. You will have more coming on this over the next couple of days on the athletic. People should absolutely look for your work and the updates from the NFLPA and from the investigation that I think has become even more important. And the stakes of it have become even higher. after what happened tonight. All right.

Thanks for having me, man. Talk to you soon. Guys, thank you very much for listening. Really appreciate it. Mike and Randy Mueller will be back later this afternoon with the football GM. They will have more on what happened last night with Tua and all of the fallout from that. So please go check out their conversation.

Really appreciate you guys listening. We will be back on Sunday night with me and Nate. In the meantime, thank you so much for the time. We'll talk to you soon. This was the athletic football show.