The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Under-the-radar free agents with Nate Tice + crafting the perfect Jaguars’ offseason with Richard Johnson

Episode Date: March 12, 2021

Robert Mays and Nate Tice begin the show by discussing the surprise cuts on the Chiefs’ offensive line as well as Matt Milano’s four-year extension with the Bills. Then they dive into several under-the-radar free agents, including Corey Davis, Matt Feiler, Trey Hendrickson and more.Plus, Richard Johnson sits down with Robert to create the perfect Jaguars’ offseason. They discuss the team’s blank slate, where they should be spending the most money in free agency and the future landscape of the AFC South.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. A little bit later, Richard Johnson from, I guess, SEC Network, he works like a dozen places covering college football, a lot of other stuff. We're going to try to put together the perfect Jaguars off season.

I just thought it would be a useful exercise to talk about a team that really has all of the chips. They can do whatever they want. They kind of sit in the driver's seat of how to spend financial resources and with having two first round picks, all of that. It was a fun conversation. Before we do that, though, I'm thrilled to welcome. My good buddy, Nate Tyson, how you doing, man?

Great. It was really fun for me after I've been diving into college prospects for the draft to kind of get snapped back into NFL film for the last couple days, last week. And also, it was just like, it was nice. I watched the Lions a lot today. And even that was kind of refreshing. After I just watched some really bad college offenses, I was kind of, or defenses and offenses, I was kind of like, I'm okay with this.

It's, it's okay. I can watch this for a little bit. It's, it's nice to see some NFL film again. What we're going to do today, I know, it could be a little bit of whiplash. That's why I tried to compartmentalize it. Like, all right, it's just free agency. I haven't watched a single college prospect. I have not started at all because I have a month to do it after free agency ends.

I know. So I just don't feel like I need to do it. It's a better way to do it too. It's a better way to do it just for your brain. Listen, I, I've watched. as much of the college prospects as every other head coach in the NFL has watched so far. So that's why I feel okay about it. There you go.

Hey, that is so true, too. So we're going to talk about, we've hit free agency from so many different angles on this show over the last couple weeks, but we haven't really dug into some of the lesser named guys available. We talked to Sheel about his top 50, but we're going to talk about some of the under the radar guys we like today and some of the potential fits for them team-wise. I want to start, though, by talking about the top 50. some of the news that happened earlier today.

There were some kind of shocking headlines this morning. And you saw some of the reactions from around the league. The Chiefs released Mitchell Schwartz and Eric Fisher. It's an insult to Mitchell Schwartz that people are saying Eric Fisher's name first as they were reporting this news. Mitchell Schwartz has been the best player in his position for like the last five years. But in totality, a really surprising sequence of events, even in this financial world, I still was surprised to see both of those guys release.

I was thinking one, like honestly, but not both. Like that was very surprising. And that's that you're so correct with that because I saw the Fisher news five, seven times on Twitter before I even saw the Schwartz. It was like thrown in. And it was it. It was number, former number one pick former number one pick. Former number one pick. It wasn't, hey, uh, all pro right tackle potentially retiring.

It was like, I think you guys are bearing the lead here. But yeah, it was, that was surprising to see both just. just like that just they're moving on no more tackles for the chief so that i think that also puts their offseason a little bit more into focus too uh with free agency in the draft uh actually it was just that's on my mind because i was on the podcast yesterday and talking about that with the chiefs so it's kind of it's funny all of a sudden it's like okay they're like oh do they go a receiver did they go align they go defense so it's like yeah i think they're going to align in the first round guys uh if uh if i were a betting man i think that's where they're going to be angling now well

I mean, we'll see what happens because typically tackle is an area where it's going to be really difficult to find someone in free agency. But think about the guys that have been released. I mean, even if Riley Reef isn't a better player than Eric Fisher, if you can get him for half the price of what you were going to pay for Eric Fisher this year, those are the types of considerations that teams are going to have to make this season because there's going to be such a glut of players available, even at some of those high impact spots. So I understand it from a financial level. I mean, when you're paying Frank Clark $26 million a year on $180 million cap, eventually you're going to have to cut some corners. And that's where they are. They've committed a lot of money to certain players in certain areas of their roster.

And this is tough. And they're going to have to piece this thing together, whether that's Lucas Niyang, who is their third round pick last year? Is that somebody who's going to be forced into the starting lineup? Can they find a cheaper left tackle option in free agency? Do they have to go there in the first round of the draft? I mean, now there's not a lot of flexibility, not a lot of wiggle room, not a lot of a margin for error with how they're going to retool and replace a position group that doomed them in the Super Bowl.

Yeah, that's what's so funny. It's that that was the obvious weakness after the Super Bowl or just for that game. You know, injuries decimated them throughout the year. But that's what everyone was saying, right? Don't be, don't overstate this because those guys are going to be back. Now they're not back. Now they're not. And that's what's interesting is that it's, I thought it was going to be a, okay, yeah,

we'll just hit the pause button. We'll regroup this offseason and figure it out, bring a lot as many guys, same guys back. But yeah, that's the thing. They're like, no, we're going to try something new. That's what's so funny. You were talking about the offensive tackle market is that there's a middle class. Like there's a, usually it's one star. Now, I shouldn't even say star, like a star being on the free agent market for tackle is rare, rare.

But like usually a couple good players and then a couple low class players and then no middle ground. And now there's like kind of a middle class and upper middle class building. on a free agency market. So that's what's really curious. And I think that's going to be a lot of positions like that this offseason. I know there's been people whispering about it saying that that's the effect of the cap and the effect of what's happened this past year. Kind of interesting to see, especially a position that is a premium position.

I mean, we all know it. Offensive tackle is probably the second most important position on offense. So that is just really curious to see that somewhat, I mean, say what you will about Fisher. He's a good player. He's a good solid starter for somebody. especially at that position, that matters so much. Just the baseline level of competency, a guy you can rely on. The fucking Jaguars just franchise Cam Robinson.

I mean, if you have a guy there- That one shocked me. If you have a guy there who's an answer, it's a huge advantage. So we'll see if the chiefs can find an answer and where they're going to look for one. On the short side of this, I just want to take a second to acknowledge what sort of player he has been during his time there. I mean, arguably the best player at his position

for his entire stretch in Kansas City, in my opinion, had the most impressive postseason I think I've ever seen from an offensive tackle since I've been covering the NFL last year. I firmly believe they do not win the Super Bowl without him playing the way that he did

over that three-game stretch. He went on a flacko run at right tackle in the playoffs. That's what he did. I mean, he did. It was three weeks of just locked down play. Like it's like it was one of those, yeah, you might not make the pro bowl.

and it's like, okay, yeah, the nerds pick him for all pro and the writers do, but it's like, that proved it. It was like, yeah, okay, now all the spotlights on him. And it's like, yeah, he proved it that he's not. I said the Flacco run, Flacco, you know, kind of turned into a flash of the pan. Schwartz was actually, you know, legit player. And it was more like a stamp on his kind of a run that he had in Kansas City going like, yeah, I am an all pro. And guess what? I'm going to lock these guys down for three straight weeks.

It was pretty cool to watch. And, yeah, hell of a player. And just one of those guys that's, I'm glad he's getting some pub, but it's sad that in the way he's getting it. If that makes sense. Now we're appreciating him as it's winding down, maybe. I mean, a full disclosure. I mean, him and I are, we have a relationship. And I feel like it's disingenuous to not mention that.

I'm really glad that he, his contract was restructured last year. So they gave him a good chunk of his money up front. He signed a short extension. He got about $12 million to sign. I don't know what happens now. He was always somebody that I knew was not. never going to hang on. It's just not how he's wired. He has a ton of varied interests. Him and his wife just bought a house. They're doing a lot of work on it down there. I think that's

always where he wanted to end up, whether he were to play somewhere else or not. But if this is it, I had a really fun time watching him. He's a fascinating guy, somebody that was a part of a team, I think, and a stretch of offenses that we're going to remember for an extremely long time. So, all right. One more thing to hit here. because we're not going to talk about the Cairo Santos thing. We're just, we're not going to discuss it. Come on. Is that why we start?

Is that why we record it? It's because that's signing, right? I don't even know, like, the only thing the bears are more desperate for that a quarterback, I think, might be a kicker. It's the only thing they spend more time and energy on than worrying about who's going to be the goddamn quarterback. One of the most brutal things I read was last year when they were saying that every field goal attempt to end practice or whatever was from that, from the same. spot that the double joint happened. It was the K-1-Kalor story. No.

It was like, no, you're supposed to bury it and move on. You're not supposed to let it linger? You think when Gary Anderson missed the field goal and IFC championship game that they like, hey, Gary, you got 47-yarder every single day. We're going to make you kick it every single day. It's like, no, no, no, we were trying to drop that and move on with our lives. But I, yeah, that's like you said, just bears and quarterbacks. I mean, well, Robbie Gould was a lot of fun to have for a lot of years.

Yeah, by the way, they could have just kept Robbie Gold. then none of this would have been an issue. But in all seriousness, this is the type of thing. Cairo Santos has played on like five teams in the last five years. He's gotten cut multiple times in recent memory. He had a really good season last year. I think that paying him $3 million a year

is the definition of paying for past performance. I mean, this is a team that gave Robert Quinn the contract that gave him last year one year after he was available for absolutely nothing after the year he had in Miami. So nothing surprises me anymore. A contract that I do think was smart and do think was worth signing is the deal that Matt Milano, the Bills linebacker signed today. Four years, $44 million, $24 million guaranteed.

He was going to be a coveted player in free agency, really good modern day linebacker. And the price that they got him for makes total sense. About the AAV that Joe Schobert signed at last year in Jacksonville, he's a better player than Joe Schobert and just under what Corey Littleton got to go sign with the Raiders last year. So for a quality off-ball linebacker, he signed for less than the going rate, and I think the bills have to be thrilled about that. And especially with the bills run because they're more of a traditional four-three. I mean, I know most teams are a nickel now, but, you know, they're traditional stacked

linebackers with three guys off the ball. I mean, think of the Bears teams, think of the Panthers teams of the last, you know, tennis years is you need two guys. You need two legit linebackers to be able to fill if you want to run too high because they have to be good in the box and be athletic enough to do other things. Of course, they have Emmons who's an athletic freak and, you know, when he's healthy, does some tremendous things, but they need that will. They need that other guy that is going to be able to cover that's going to be able to come down and fit the run. And that's what he fills. It's a perfect fit. And they got him on a nice, fairly team friendly contract. I think it's one of those kind of

win wins. It's like he's happy with what he's at in Buffalo. The money's fair. I was about to say fairly fair, which would have been, you know, very neat tight statement. But it's, um, you know, it just, it makes sense. It's just one of those that just makes sense. At least to me, it's a scheme fits, culture fit. It's a, uh, production fit. Yeah, like you said, if those guys like Joe Sherbert's getting that kind of money, this is a great deal. Because he's a, he's a tier above, I think in my head. And I mean, Littleton, who was great with the Rams, you know, well, I don't play better than him. you know, than Oakland. So I think, I think it's a much better fit and much better bank for their buck that the bills are getting, which makes sense because this is what they do. They're great with these

types of deals and great with knowing what fits what they want to do in Buffalo. I'll be curious to see what the structure is like, how much room they still have this year. I think as it currently stands, they have about $20 million in cap space after some of the cuts. You know, they've moved on from guys like Quinn Jefferson was released and John Brown was released, which it's a part of how their strategy has worked in free agency because they've signed these deals but it's all short-term commitments a lot of them that you can get out of after two years so they've been able to kind of replenish and restock areas of the roster at these spots where rotational players are really useful and they still have enough financial wiggle room to say all right can we add a slot corner

in free agency this year where are we going to find one more interior pass rusher can we get one more edge guy they're still able to do that that's typically the area of the area of this team shops in and I still think they're going to have enough flexibility to go looking in those same areas again this offseason. I think it's good, just modern thinking. It's what they done is the Bill's franchise. Even when they got there day one, they hired a lot of guys that are kind of like personal favorites of mine.

Andre Holmes, as you know, Illinois boy. Conan product, Andre Holmes. Yeah, yeah. That was the same conference, right? You guys were in the same conference. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Is that?

Okay. What's the conference called again? I want to hear it's mid suburban league west mid suburban league west that's like a basketball division the northeast southwest you know a b division national division but that's but yeah Andre holmes great great character guy dirty work guy they got Patrick de marco another great guy but they hired a number of basketball games i played against andre holmes in my life i can't even tell you how many games we played against him yes all the time god he must be good to middle he's long oh yeah Very tall.

The fact that he played in the NFL was hilarious to me because I do not remember him from high school. Really? No. What I loved about Andre. It was, oh my God, we're turning to this Andre Holmes podcast, which I'm fine with because I love Andre Holmes. That is like your ultimate, if you are building a team and you want your number four receiver,

that's what, hold on, I'm going to go on a little tangent. So when you're building a receiver core, you have your one and two guy, you have your X and your Z. You hopefully have a slot guy. That's your three, four, and five. You hopefully have one of those guys as a returner. But then when you get to that four and a four. in five spots. Usually they have five receivers active on game day. They have to play teams.

They have to play special teams. Andre Holmes was the perfect number four receiver because he could back up the Z, the X, the slot, and then play all four special teams and be a stud on them. And it's like that is like those are, that's what good teams find those guys. And like they, you know, that's what they build their rosters with as opposed to a bunch of flashy, speedy guys. But that's why like a guy like Andrew Holmes makes sense. That's why the team like the bills sought out and got him. You know, and that, but that's the same. They get these guys.

Everyone likes the, the makeup there, and they just like, they get guys that fit their system, fit their chemistry of their team, and they just go from there. They sign all those offensive linemen, like John Felice Alley, another guy I love from the Raiders. You know, he's another guy that was a culture guy, like brought toughness and brought intelligence to the team. That's what they find with these guys, and they find middle class guys. It's not sexy, but it's cool. And that's why they're winning games. That and Josh Allen becoming a demigod. That part helps.

All right. Let's get to some of our under the radar guys here. We're going to start with two guys who are not so far under the radar. These are our obvious guys that we still wanted to talk about. We each have one. So who's yours? Okay. So first one to start with,

Corey Davis, who anyone listening to this podcast knows me and you are a big fan of. That's why I wanted to talk about it. I wanted to give you a chance to be excited about Corey Davis for three minutes. That's why I'm doing this. That's what's so funny about Corey Davis or just me and you, because we usually love the unharald guy, some fourth rounder, some, you know, a Jordan Fuller, some six round guy that shows up. And Corey Davis is a top ten pick that has turned himself into almost like an underrated player.

It's very strange. It's a strange trajectory. It's a very, very strange trajectory. And it was really cool to see him this past year develop into what I see him as for the next, you know, seven, eight, nine years. And that is as a really good number two. And with Corey Davis is he does the, he's a top 10 pick, but he does the dirty work. He's a hell of a blocker. He's smart.

And he's just kind of like a willing player. A lot of times with receivers, they might only get five targets a game. And it's hard to ask these guys, hey, take the top off and run as fast as you can 12 times because we're going to get the ball to somebody else. And so sometimes you need these makeups where the guys get the gist of what the concept is because then they know, hey, we're trying to get somebody else open because next play, I'm going to get mine. I'm going to get my target, my throw, my catch. Corey Davis does all that kind of BS work and is willing to do it. And that's a top 10 pick willing to do it. That's what's kind of cool with him.

He's physical in the run game. We gushed about him about maybe the fit with the Packers of being kind of like a best, like, you know, monsters on the outside. Because having a guy that's maybe has prestige to him, usually when you take a receiver early, they're pretty. I mean, that's what you want them to be. You want those receivers to be pretty. You don't need them to get mucked up.

up in the run game or muck it up and help a guy out that you want to be the stud and have that mindset. Corey Davis has turned has gathered that mindset but he's also still willing to do that dirty work that they asked him to do in Tennessee. That's really cool from a receiver, especially if his goal or really his role, I should say, is going to be that kind of ultimate number two guy. I like him a lot. He, he, he, when AJ Brown got banged up early this year, he started, Corey Davis started catching all the digs that AJ Brown gets, you know, on their, their play action concepts. And he took it and ran. with it, pun intended.

And just like did everything, like kind of did a Diet Coke version of what AJ Brown's doing. So it was kind of cool to see him ascend again and more of a featured role for a few weeks. Put some good film out there. And he deserves to get paid. He deserves to be with, I hope he signs with a good offense that maybe has another, a number one that could be an X. And he could be a Z and do all those, you know, those glue things that a good player like him does.

I'll be curious what his price tag is because there's a chance he gets, he gets priced out of the glue range. And it's almost... Correct. And I think Ghaladay hitting free agency is not good for Corey Davis's wallet, but it might be good for the expectations placed on Corey Davis. Because I think the team that truly needs that number one outside X might land on Gowaday and not Davis now. I think the team in my mind is Washington.

I just, Washington is the team I keep going back to. They need that big physical presence on the outside. They have the money to do it. So if they get gall, and they're in a little bit of a different spot because they have McLaurin. So it's almost like a 1A1B thing. But I think if a team signed Corey Davis and expected him to be 95 catches, 1,300 yards, a dozen touchdowns at $18 million a year, it's not going to happen that way. But I think if a team like- He's not Chris Carter. He's not Chris Carter.

He's Jake Reed. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that's what he is. If he goes to Baltimore for $15 million and he's just. just their guy. I love that. In a play action heavy scheme where he's going to be blocking a lot, it's also a really

weird thing. On those little drift routes where he's stalking and then coming across, he sells it so well. Like he just, he buys into the concepts that he's a part of. And that's why I really like him because, like you said, he just does the little dirty work stuff. And I think that if you're paying a guy $18 million a year, it's harder to appreciate the dirty work stuff because you want the flashy stuff. So how much he gets paid, I think will go a long way in how people remember Corey Davis in this second stage of his career.

Yeah, he's a guy that less might be more. Yes. Like, hey, take a discount, go to a better team where you don't have to be the guy. But that is such a great point about expectations. And that's what the free agency can kind of warp all that. Some second tier guys get a tier money. And that's the expectations. It's fans don't, and I'm not trying toot our own horn, fans don't watch film.

They just say, they just see number six overall pick making $18 million a year. Okay, we're 1400 yards and 12 touchdowns. Why aren't you Julio Jones? You know, that's what they expect. It's just that's what they're expecting with it. No, that's a great, great point to make about expectations for this because he's a guy that's almost like, man, just take a little discount and just I don't want to ever like defer for my or tell a player to not get paid but it's like man you know a fit could really matter for

core davis or just you know like you said mattering or or setting expectations with what his role is going to be on the new team that's the same point about he being a top 10 pick you draft a guy in the top 10 he's your ex usually you're not really asking him to block and do the dirty work and then also you same thing you pay a receiver 18 million 16 million 17 million not really you're expecting to catch touchdowns and do and catch 1,200 yards and 90 balls but it's really more like no Corey Davis's expectation should be that 70 to 80 ball range, 900,000 yard range. That is what he is.

He's a real good Z for a team. And I think he can be a really good player. And we saw him make some of those explosive plays last year. I mean, he's catching 75-yard touchdowns on, you know, downfield concepts. I think he can do some splashy stuff. I just think that where he fits into your offense is really important. My guy that I'm kind of calling these are two like obvious crushes.

Like they're not under the radar, but guys we wanted to talk about. I've mentioned him a couple times on the show, as we've discussed free agency, but I wanted to delve a little bit deeper just because I really went back and I watched him today. I love Carl Lawson. I just absolutely love Carl Lawson. And here's why. I just think that it's really fun. I have a type when it comes to past rushers. I like guys who are a little bit more compact because I just think that guys who understand leverage and play with a lot of power, Daniel Jeremiah tweeted this last week.

I thought it was a really interesting point about how power rushers have become more valuable than ever with how quickly guys are getting the ball out and collapsing the pocket is really important. So when you go look at a guy like Carl Lawson, you wouldn't think power rusher because he's not a 290 pound guy that plays inside outside. He's a true right defensive end. That's where he spent, I think, 92% of his snaps last year. But if you look at it, he's 6-2-2-60, and he benched 30, he had 35 reps of 225 at the combine. And when you watch him play, even though he's, I guess, a little undersized, the way that he's built is so compact that he plays with a ton of power.

So he comes off and he has that long arm technique move that a lot of other guys have. But he almost bends it more inside than a guy like Kalil Mack does. So when he eventually cleans it up, he cleans it up inside, not outside, which is really interesting. He almost like, Mac will throw a guy by and then clean it up. Lawson will almost dart inside as he's finishing it. And I think in this current NFL where things are sped up a little bit more, that being his go-to move is really powerful. I tweeted it out.

You watch him just destroy Alejandro Villanueva on a play earlier this year, which makes sense. Tall guy gets underneath. He used that extremely well. And not only do I think his go-to move is really good and very appropriate for how the game is being played right now, his compliment off of it is this little stab chop rip move that he does so he does that stab and then he comes back and slams the guy's hands down with his right hand and then goes back underneath it's not the sexiest thing in the world but it's perfectly it is the perfect compliment and perfect next step from that go-to bull rush that he does so this is a long-winded way of saying i love how complimentary his pass rush plan is even if it's a It's not super varied.

I think if you have guys that have 10 moves that they go to all the time, that's not necessarily the best thing in the world. You don't need 10 moves. Do you have three moves that you can really sequence together in smart logical ways that keep guys off balance all of the time? And he does. And if you look at it, it comes through in the production. He was fourth among edge guys in the NFL last year with 64 pressures.

He was second to T.J. Watt and quarterback hits. And it's not just about volume. On a per play basis, he was one of the six or eight most impactful edge rushers in the league last year. And he's about to be 26 years old. So the health can be a concern. You know, that's been something where he missed almost an entire season. He was dinged up last year. But if this guy's going to be on the field, I legitimately think you can get a number one edge rusher,

like a true difference maker for, let's say, $13 million a year. You can get a discount and get a star in this guy. And I just think that's rare in free agency. And that's what free agency is all about. People think it's about winning the off season and stuff. It's like, no, it's finding the gems. And I'll go on a rant about that later, I'm sure. But it's, I look at him, Blosson, almost like a relief pitcher with two out pitches.

You know, it's not, he doesn't have the seven, he doesn't have the six pitches. He doesn't have, you know, I always try to make the, I make cross sports analogies. But it's just, that's how I look at him. I look at him that he has an incredible fastball and an incredible change up, you know, just something else. And then that's it. And guess what? It works. And it gets guys out over and over and over.

And that's what he is. He's a closer. Like he is just a guy that, like you said, he could be that sneaky number one edge guy. But like, say a smart team that already has a guy. And he's your number two rusher. It's like, holy crap. Those are the signings that puts a team over the edge. Yep.

As opposed to some shit team trying to go like, oh, we need, we need, we need sacks. We need sacks. And you get this guy. And yeah, he's good. and everything, but it's like, this is where a good team can find a little bit of a discount, have some money, pay it a little bit of discount. We already have other guys. And then he comes in and it's just like, oh, my God.

Like, their D-Line just got unlocked. Because if you can get to three legit guys, three legit weapons, and again, I'm making another cross-sport reference, but just think of basketball. If you have three options, you know, the big three, especially like D-Line, that can unlock a whole team. And he's a guy that can go to a team that might have another, a one-in-a-two or a, a two-toes and he could be the third two for them basically as a pass rusher something like that but he he's just a productive player like you said the health you always have to take into effect but you can

still get a discount on this guy there is something to be said about guys not looking the part he doesn't and he really doesn't and i think that's so true and i was i was having a conversation with a play caller today about him and he was saying you know yeah i know the numbers are really good i know that guys really respect him but i just wasn't thinking about him while i was calling play which I think is interesting. And I think that I don't want to be dismissive of that as somebody who really likes them. I want to kind of process what that means. And I think that if I were trying to kind of construe that in a self-serving way,

I would say it's because he doesn't look the part. You just don't think about him being this dynamic game-wrecking presence. But then at the end of the game, you look up. He's like, oh, he has six pressures. And it's like he's hit the quarterback twice, even though he doesn't have any sacks. And I think that if you look at the underlying pressure numbers and how often he was getting hits in hurries last year, that's sack. I don't even know how many sex he had last year was like five or something.

I don't give a shit about that. Yeah, five and a half. I mean, it's, I'm much more interested in how often he's affecting the game. And when we talk about that edginess, I think he really creates it with the way he plays. He's a power rusher that's not a wrecking ball. He's a refined power rusher.

And I think those guys are just really hard to find. He uses his natural leverage. Yes, he does. Just as just as running backs, slow runoffbacks have natural vision or natural patient. He has natural leverage. And guess what? And he has production. So great.

He does that little forklift move too where he'll use that staff to push a guy up and then come back underneath. And again, that's a sense. His timing is really good. He's one of my favorite guys to watch. If you really appreciate pass rushing, there are very few guys that understand how to string their moves together and how their moves fit together more than Carl Lawson does. All right. Let's stick with some powerful pass rushers here because I think we both had this guy on our

list and that is Romeo O'Quara from the Lions. I, let me run this by you and see what you say. So when I was watching him today, what he reminded me of is like a little mini me DeForest Buckner. Okay. I see what you made. It's that long arm and the length. So if you look at the, if you go look at his mock draftible page and like the physical

comps, of course DeForest Buckner is on there. Buckner's 6-7-290. O'Quara is 6-5-2-65 But I think they move in really similar ways And like his hand timing is really good The same way that Buckner's is So in like the swipes work He's not overly explosive

And not really that twitchy But like he's still powerful even though he's long He was a really interesting player to study But I My takeaway is The one year blip from him last year with the 10 sacks Is not a blip I think that if you look at the process

of how he got there. This is a 26-year-old guy that I really do believe could be the player we saw last year into the future of his career. Even his, like, worst year, quote-unquote, which was last year, 2019, he had one sack. He's still 10 QB hits. It's, it's, you know, that's the type of player he is. He is, I think, I really liked him. He's a guy, I don't watch much of Lions defense, to be honest, other than like two games this year.

And so actually getting to study and was really fun. for me. I actually, you know, I didn't think of the Buckner comparison, but I get what you mean. That play style, almost like a Diet Coke version of it, I get that. It's he uses his length extremely well. Like that is he has his 34 inch arms and he's using them every single play. It's they were weird. I, that's what sucks about the lions and watching them and just being like, I don't want to knock anything bad he does because it's like I just know what's going on there. But it's, on third down, he cranked his shit up. Like I got some numbers from next gen stats.

On third down in the NFL, on third down, he was first in quarterback pressures with 30. First in pressure rate, 23.8%. Second and sack rate and first in defensive stops in the entire NFL on third down. That's amazing. He has production. I know. And that's what I would say my initial concern when I was watching him was like, okay, is he a little stiff and are these all, um, um, um, competitiveness stacks, you know, sacks, where it's just more about him sustaining and rushing the guy and wearing a guy down for four seconds.

And then the quarterback holds on the ball and he gets the late sack, which a lot of, there are guys that I like that that scoop up about five or six sacks a year just because we're going to talk about Tray Hendrickson here in a minute, buddy. But with Romeo, it's like, I liked him a lot. So much more than I thought I would. And the length he uses because I keep bringing up his length, this length, because that's, That's how he wins, both in the run game because he is really good. Okay, this is a good way. If you ever watch Matthew Judon, who's going to get paid this offseason, I think Romeo is just as good a player, if not better, doing the exact same types of things that Matt Judon does.

And he beats the shit out tight ends. He can wear on right tackles. He's fine in the run game, I would say. I would say Judon's a little better in the run game, but he can set the edge. He's dominating tight ends. So, okay, that's great. He's not getting whipped by tight ends. ends. Okay, so we're good. And then he's 50-50 against tackles. Okay, this is good. And I, you know, I watched a good, he's going against good tackles. Ramchak. He's going against the Colts. And so he uses his length and run game. I don't think his weight lets him sustain playing base downs all the time. But then he has, he's still stronger than I thought he was going to be with that frame. He wins with strength. And that's what shocked me. I thought he was going to be some bendy guy, even though he ran a 4-9. It was like, I thought he was going to be some, you know, twitchy bends around the guy.

teats it up on third down, doesn't do shit on the run downs. No, he, he brings it all three downs. I also loved his hustle on every play. I know that's corny as hell. That matters, though. That shows that he is willing to play every single play because he's playing for a bad team. They're downed, and he's still running down plays on the opposite side of the ball. That stuff matters. It really does, especially if he's going to get money because some guys get money and they're like, I'm done chasing out of the running back from the backside, man. But showing that he has that in him was really cool. I liked him a lot.

I think the numbers are not a blip. I think I could see him being an eight-sac guy for somebody for a while and be able to play about 70 to 80% of their snaps on the edge. And being, he can drop in the coverage. He's decent. He's got length. He's a little stiff, but he's got length and shows some good eyes. But he could be a Sam that comes down, puts his hand in the ground on passing downs.

I really liked him. I think he's a really good, good player that could be a good, good number two for somebody. So he had 61 pressures last year. It's not as if the sack production was a mirage where the underlying numbers and the underlying efficiency wasn't there. And what really jumped out to me is when you have six, five guys, they can lack power sometimes. If that weight is distributed in a specific way, they can lack power. They do become these bendy guys that can't really go through people. That long arm push he uses with the bull rush can be dominant.

I mean, he had two monster plays against the Bears doing exactly that. So I liked him a lot more than I thought, is there a lot more? thought, is there a team that jumps out to you that you think he fits with? I actually think he's kind of scheme proof because he's able to play. I know, that's a cop-out answer, but he's able to play. It's a terrible answer. This is a podcast. I know.

You know what's another thing with him that I really like? And we're talking about he's not twitchy. I said he ran a 4-9 and he's used his strength. He's never on the ground, which is a big sign with line play that he's an athlete. So he might not be the fast-fastiest, fast-fastest, fastest, twitch-y-st guy. but he's athletic enough to have balance and all those types of things. I just see him like a team that already has a guy

and I know that's just being on both sides of my mouth, but he's a guy that I could just see because I could see him as a 4-3 strong side end or I could see him as a 3-4 Sam and I can't really think of a picture a team but a team that does need a pass rush or needs, but it has a guy. You don't want him as your number one rusher.

I think a team that's assigning him to be their number one guy is going to be very disappointed just as we just talked about a second ago with other players. But that's the type of thing that he's looking for is that they have a guy already, but they need more complimentary pieces. So, you know, I'm trying to think of those cab space right now. I want them next to Buckner on the Colts. They'd have the longest defensive line in history.

Oh, my God. They would just bull rush everybody. They would just push that pocket. The pocket would collapse on every single play. They have a need. They have the money. And I think that he would be in the price range they would want. he would just step in for what Justin Houston has been for them.

That's, oh, I'm so glad he brought that up because that's what I was just about to say. It's like he could fill that exact role as Justin Houston because that's exactly what they would want. All right. So there are a couple other pass rushers that are a step down from the top guys that I know you wanted to talk about. Who specifically? Yeah, so I got two more. So Trey Hendrickson and Melvin Inger, those are my two. And they're kind of different flavors of pass rush around this free agency market.

Um, Trey Hendrickson had the breakout year. He's the classic contractor year guy. His fourth year just shoots through the roof. His was a little bit of injuries. He still looks like a long snapper, which I'll never get out of my mind. It's because it doesn't wear gloves. And I can't stare at this guy and go like, oh man, this guy's going to be, he looks like a fourth week preseason guy always. It's so true.

Like that's what he looks like. Just wearing 62, you know, just a terrible number playing D.N. But he's not, he's 91 now, isn't he? No, no, that's what I'm saying. He looks like a guy that's in the fourth preseason game. Oh, this should wear 62. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It's from, you know, he's from some small school in South Dakota or something. But it's, he's a guy that just like, I'm not going to compare him because I think Shaq Barrett's a little bit of a better player. But it's that I've touched on it before. I've tweeted about it. There's this thing in basketball called the Paul Millsap doctrine that they came up within the early advanced stat years of NBA. I've talked to you about this before.

It's monster efficiency lack of usage. Yeah. Exactly. it's it's in his and what it is because paul mows out broke p er that's the reason that's what it was that's what it was that's exactly what it was and so it's but it what it is in just a short shorthand it's you know a guy is effective on a permanent basis he's going to be effective with more minutes played you know that's just it's pretty simple when you think about it but i do believe more than anything that there is some cross pollination with advanced stats between basketball and defenders in nfl uh especially at the defense aligned because there's There's more do-shit stats than just sacks. I think with defense alignment or edge players, where we want to say front guys are a rush a passer. I think that that's where that carryover,

that carryover happens. I think Shaq Barrett's the number one iteration of this, but those do-shit stats add up, passes deflected, stops, QB hits. That matters along with the sack numbers. I think we get too hung up. Oh, yeah, nine sacks. He had 10 and a half a sex, the 11 sacks.

It's the other production that these guys do. but I think he's a guy, he finally got a little more light on him. Health is an issue. So that's the thing, is that can he hold up with another year of sustained play? Did he just peak for this year, et cetera, et cetera. But that's me. That's for the teams to decipher, not me. That's why it's great.

But he is a guy that I do think he is the ultimate iteration of the Paul Milosep Doctrine. Like, I think he's another one of those guys. I don't think he's going to get to the 20 sack shack Barrett level, but a guy I think he's going to sustain with more reps played for him. I don't, I would have Romeo above him. If I were stacking free agents, I think his stuff's more sustainable and real. I think Trey had some hustle sacks, but he also had a couple of games where he dominated. So I do think he's a good player.

The other one is Melvin Ingram. Let's talk about Henderson for a second. Okay, yeah, go. He's not my favorite. I would let someone else pay him. And I know that the efficiency is there. So if you look at it, he had 49 pressures according to PFF, but had his, which, you know, I think ranks, let's take a look at it. 49 ranks 21st in the league.

But his snaps were down. So his snaps were down. So there are pass rush productivity, which is a per snap efficiency metric. He was third in the NFL behind Joey Bosa and TJY. So that's what you're saying. Crank up the usage. If the efficiency stays the same,

we're going to see more raw production and volume stats. But when I look at the ways he wins, it's not varied enough for me. It's just a lot of straight bull rushing, a lot of just throwing it. It's exactly right. It just did something very unrefined On the camera.

I just... I did. To me, it's a lot. There's a lot of cleanup sacks. You know, I think he had 13 on the year. If you look at it, there are a lot of zero yard gains, cleaning stuff off at the end of the play, guys running into him. So I think that the pressure numbers are encouraging, but he's just, it's not my favorite

style of player. And the next guy you're going to mention, let's say, who is Melvin Inker from the Chargers, let's say that Trey Hendrickson makes... $13 million a year on his extension, which I think is realistic, right? It wouldn't surprise me at all. Someone's going to pay him. Let's say it's four years,

13 a year. Or three years, let's say three years 40, just to make it clean. What do you think Melvin Ingram is going to be available for? He's going to get a two-year deal. What did Justin Hughes to get with the Colts?

He got a lot, though. He got like 10-year-16. No, it was like two years 16, I think. That contract right there. So which would you rather have? 8 to 10 million. I would rather have Melvin Ingram on a discounted deal. That's exactly right.

And I'm getting right. And Melvin, I love Melvin Ingram. So I'll let you go real quick before I. No, I think that's exactly right. And I think that if you look at Melvin Ingram, he's a more exciting player to me. And he's not as sexy because he's been hurt. We know who he is. He's a little bit older, all of that stuff.

But if you look at some of the shit Melvin Ingram was doing last year before he got hurt, he just looks like Melvin Ingram. So if I can get that guy at a post-year-old. hype discount because people are getting so excited about some of these other guys on the market that to me is where you can find sweet spots in free agency if i can get that guy at nine million a year on a two-year deal because he's a little bit longer in the tooth that's exciting to me i mean he had he had a freaking inside spin against the jags in week seven where i'm just sitting there like oh my god i mean he does those wow plays and hendrickson just doesn't have that wow gear to him and that's why even if Engram is not as exciting

of a name right now, that's the type of guy I'd rather be chasing. And also with Ingram, the understated thing with him is his versatility. You just brought the inside spin stuff, but it's, he's been lined up all over the place, especially on past rushing downs.

Gus Bradley, with his defenses there, they were in the cover three more than anybody, but on third down, they got nuts. They got crazy with him and Bosa ran games on the same side all the time. He's so used to playing like that. Yep, yep.

He could be a spinner. If you want him in a spinner roll, you can put him at the three tech running games. You can put him on outside. They used to run when Chuck Pagano's brother, John Pagano was the defense coordinator there. Goal line situations, they would have him off ball almost like the mic position.

Yep. And just read the fullback. He would key the fullback and go from there because he was such a good football player. And as opposed to just a pass rusher. He's just a good player. But he's the same type of guy that teams get the discount with Dwight Freeney's second act.

They get to discount with Justin Houston's second act. That's what the smart teams do. They sign these guys on two years deals and he doesn't have to be the guy anymore. He could be your number two or number three guy even if you have a good team. And that's what builds winning teams. I'm going to keep saying this point about 20 times, by the way, on this podcast. I love using free agency as a way to sprinkle something into your pass rush. Yeah.

As a way to drop some chaos into what you already have. As a way to help stave off regression on defense, just a little. little different flavor than what you had before. And among this group, I don't think there's a guy who is better at adding that little seasoning to your defense than Ingram solely because you can use him in all of these different ways that becomes such a valuable piece when he's not a foundational aspect of your team. I mean, he essentially, I think, was going to be able to do, he's going to be able to do like a B-plus version of what Zadaria Smith does for the Packers for half the price.

Yeah. Yes. And I just think that's such great value. Yeah. That's how to picture them. That's exactly. That's what a smart team will get them and do the exact same things. Like you said, you'll get a, shoot, half a tier drop in production, but like you said, half the money and not having to be like, oh, this is our big name signing.

We do the jersey hold up and all that stuff. It's just another veteran signing that we bring in and blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, yeah, that's a nice signing. And no one thinks about it until October. when the team that signed him and it's a Monday night game and he gets two sacks. And everyone goes, oh my God, Melvin Ingram. God, how was Melvin Ingram available for $8 million a year? Oh, my God.

You can already see it happening. I thought he was, yep. I thought he was left for dead. My next guy, another pass rusher, much further down the list than these guys. Somebody I've loved forever. I remember I really fell in love with him in 2016. It was his breakout year in Detroit. And I was watching games.

I'd be like, who is that guy? And it was Carrie Hider. And just we talk about Carl Lawson not looking like he fits the bill. Carry hider is listed at 6-2-270. And is an extremely generous weight for Mr. Carrier. He went to the combine at 290. I don't think he's any skinnier now than he was the combine at 290. He is not an impressive looking guy when you think about what defensive ends should look like in the uniform.

But every time he's been in the right situation, he pops. So in 2016, that was his last year with Chris Kusurik, who is now the defensive line coach for the Niners. Comes back next year in a full-time role with Chris Kusurik, 55 pressures tied for 13th in the NFL with edge rushers. On a person-at basis, he was as disruptive last year as Emmanuel Agba. Look at the contract Emmanuel Agba signed to go with the dolphins. You're not going to have to pay that to get Kerry Hyder.

I just think that he is the perfect, again, he caves in the pocket with the way that he plays. A lot of power, a lot of weight that he throws around. In San Francisco, he played in that wide nine technique where he's lined up really far outside. And that allows him to kind of get ahead of steam. And when he's got that power, because he's not twitchy. He's not going to be able to create that power in short areas. But if he's got a runway, that's a lot of weight to throw around. And he's collapsing pockets. So I think, again, if you're throwing him in, he's got a nice little cross chop move as his compliment to that. There's a little move. The little move, the little Brandon Thorne and I talk about this all the time.

The cross chop is like the little Euro step kind of outside move that guys are using. You'll see people do that a lot. Robert Quinn is one of the first people to popularize it. The perfect compliment of that is if you can do a hump off of it, which is when you throw the guy past you, I want him to add.

The move that Reggie White made famous. I want him to add that so badly because it's open every time. I don't know if he's twitchy enough to do it, but that's like one area he could unlock that is a very nerdy thing for me to be mentioning right now. But I think that he's the perfect sort of guy that if you run that wide nine system and you just need a rotational pass rusher, he's somebody you

could maybe get for four or five million bucks. So if you're a team like Cleveland, for example, right, who just cut Adrian Claiborne and needs a third pass rusher, he played for Chris Kiffin when Chris Kiffin, the Brown's defensive line coach was the assistant in San Francisco. Joe Woods was the passing game coordinator, knows them very well. Or a team like the Jets. Robert Sal is there now. They need pass rushing depth. Aaron White Cotton, who's the Jets defensive line coach,

was the assistant D-line coach in San Francisco last year. So scheme cross-pollination, and I think a guy that could be useful for a team that needs that sort of rotational pass rusher. That's always the scary path, though, that the coach that just came from him loves them. And they're like, we got to get them. And then the agent's like, oh, man, they really like it.

So, hey, hey, we're asking for $7 million now. you know it's like that's that's what happens though it's just funny you gotta have a lot of sand it yep his market yeah he he he should have a fair market like he it's one of those guys that's like they get into a system or get into a situation though so it's like oh oh that's right when you get to a team that's positive it puts you to the right situations you're a good football player there's so many guys in the NFL that we lose track of that and they were just like oh yeah that's right you you you can be a contributor somewhere um I mean it's just it's like you said it's like he got to the right scheme, the right, not just scheme, but the right, he was asked to do the right thing.

Like you said, he had that buildup wide nine, which is not, most people picture a wide nine rusher and you think of the six five pretty guys that, you know, Ben, they're, they're so fast and they get so wide. They can get around the tackle and bend and they sweep the quarterback's leg and that's that. No, he's bull rushing from the wide. And it's pretty awesome. But yeah, those are a type of guys that you try to get these discounted deals on and not discounted deals, but just fair deals where.

If you know, if you put him in the proper role, it's going to be great. I know you can say that by anybody, but I mean that more in the sense of expectations of his role. If you're bringing him in to go, if he gets five sacks, that's a win for us. That's what you want. Absolutely. Hey, getting 18 quarterback hits, you know, all that kind of stuff. But he can be that for somebody.

He could be that really nice third piece, I think, for somebody for a team that needs them or is comfortable with him. Who's your next guy? I'm going to switch to offense real quick. I'm going to go with a personal favorite of mine from the last couple of years, and that's Kendrick Bourne. And it's a receiver for the four-knit. Yeah.

And I think Born is a guy, he's a situational monster, third downs of red zones. So no matter what, whoever signs him, he's got a role. He's going to be at least, you know, that power play guy like hockey team sign or just the fourth outfielder for baseball teams. He's going to have a role, whatever team signs him. I just think he's been on a team in an offense that has changed really what they're put a premium on other guys. So maybe he hasn't got those chances that other guys have had.

But it's always been very telling for me that as soon as the 49ers would get inside that 10-yard line, also and Kendrick Boring gets a play drawn up for him, gets a play action play drawn up for him, gets a designery play. So comfortable going up over the middle of the field. So comfortable. So comfortable. And just space and just awareness. is he has spatial awareness that not a lot of receivers have,

that a lot of these situational guys are so good. He's at 36, or sorry, 76 third down targets in his career. Exactly half of them have gone for a first down. He went 13 for 23 last year, which isn't a lot. But like to put in comparison, Stefan Diggs, 41 third down targets, 19 conversions. Devante Adams, 42 third down targets last year, 24 conversions. So about 50%, that's always the number you're looking for. Nelson Aguilar, who's another free agent on the market right now.

He went 10 for 23. Kendrick Boren, again, went 13 for 23 last year. He was 36th in D-Y-A-R. And I'm not saying, by the way, I'm not saying like, spend the bank on this guy. I'm saying that this could be a sneaky good signing that someone signs this guy and he turns into a solid number two option or number two receiver for you that turns into like a Nate Burleson, like a guy that like you count on. He's going to show up in situations, but you got him at a super cheap discount, a three-year

deal. We're only paying him a couple million each year. You know, that's the type of guy you can get and get like really. real tangible value from him. Last year, he was 36 and D.YAR from football Osiris, which is defense adjusted yards above replacement. So just war for receivers. And the person

he was just behind was Brandon Ayuk, the rookie for the 49ers. He was 29th of DVOA. The other DYAR guys that he was just above Curtis Samuel, John Brown, Keel and Cole. He was above all these guys, just above them. They're in the

same tier, but those are the guys that are going to get paid this offseason. He might get a discount somewhere and be a contributor. He was above stud rookies like Chase Claypool, C.D. Lamb. He's just a guy that I just think contributes to positive football and a good winning football for a team. And I just think with more opportunities when he's not just getting 50 targets, 60 targets on a year and getting more 80, 90 targets. Also, we're like, man, this guy's a pretty good player. You know, got 80 yards.

You know, and he's, we have our number one. But, you know, this guy caught nine touchdowns because we dialed it up for him, just like one of those super role. player types. And I just, he's a guy I've really liked. And I just think that he needs a little more light shine on him because just with the 49ers run isn't needed. He's not needed there, I think. I think with a team that might be more open with their offense and passing more every single down, he would also just be a guy that shines in that type of role. To me, it's just the type of guy that the Titans was signed at a discount to replace Corey Davis. Yes. Yeah. It's just like, yeah, that's to me. With John Brown. They just swapped this guy.

They already have Gabe Davis, though. They're kept up. They have Gabe Davis. That's why John Brown's expendable to a degree. Same type of guy. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get to another very, this is fairly obscure for people that aren't big football fans.

My guy is Matt Filer from the Steelers. So he played left guard for them last year. But one of the most important things about him is that he was a multiple year starter at right tackle. It started half a year and then a full season and was functional at both spots. So when you watch him play, he's 6'6.3.30. So he's a big guard. And when you move some of those bigger, taller tackles inside, every once in a while, they struggle with how quickly the game happens. The leverages are different. Getting their hands on guys that fast can be uncomfortable. In his first full season as a left guard this year, he looked excellent, very comfortable, very capable. He looked like a tackle past protecting a guard, but in a good way instead of a bad way. So if you're a team, and I know this isn't the sexiest thing in the world, but if you're a team who needs a starter at left guard, this is how you can make free agency work for you.

You go out and get this type of guy for $5 million a year, plug him in as a starter on a two-year deal, and you never think about it again. And that's the type of holes that need to be plugged. And I think that positional versatility when you're shopping in that price range is really appealing and useful. This is just the type of guy that if I had a little bit of money, this is how I'd be thinking about how to spend it in for agency.

Yeah, the kick inside the guard for tackles. I had some teammates at Wisconsin. A guy, a roommate of mine, he moved from guard or tackled to the right guard. And he was just like, oh, guard, man, passing game easier, run game harder. That's all he said. I was like, okay, got it. But he was just saying stuff happens so much quicker. It's like, all right, if I'm a guard and passing game,

I only a couple things can happen. If you're a tackle, you might have to shoot out, all that types of stuff. But versatility, too, the fact that he has a tackle background, injuries happen, especially at the offense a line. Matters so much. Like, there's nothing more valuable than a guy that can play. Obviously, left tackle is super valuable. But a guy that can play all three interior spots. Or, like, I know he does not play in center, but I'm just talking about, like, a potential guy that could play.

He's our starting left guard and he's our backup center. That is so valuable. Like injuries happen. Stuff gets banged up. I was with the Falcons moon. You only have seven offense alignment active on a game day. Some teams will go eight like the Saints will when they have a jumbo offense alignment. The bucks do it on their Ariens.

You only have seven guys. So those backups, one has to be the interior swing guy. One has to be the tackle swing guy. But if you guy that can cover both as a starter, he's your starter. But then like say the right tackle got hurt, hey, we got to get out the second half. You're our right tackle. That has value to it. But the point you brought up also.

he kicks inside and he's a not just a viable starter but a good starter good this is where you get guards you don't waste high picks on them you sign them free agency and you you know plug them and play him that's the type of guy you go after and and and it's funny because the other the other steelers offensive linemen is the guy I like too is bill and a nova and just you know just another good starter on the left side there but it's uh you know that's an interesting name to bring up because I just I think a lot when you're signing these non-star linemen it versatility becomes one of the most important attributes and traits that they can have. When you were watching Villanueva on a scale of 1 to 10, how disgusted were you with the Steelers running game?

Oh my God. It's unwatchable. Well, we had to watch, well, we had to watch them every week because they were winning. So we had to like, you know, we had to talk about them. So like every week I'm watching that offense. And it was just like, I'm not used to the Steelers. I'm used to Munchak being the line coach and they just running good stuff and doing all these great things. Oh, duo over and over and counter and all that stuff.

And then it's just draw, draw, draw. It's speed draw. It's the most passive running game I think I've ever seen. That's a great way to play. Speed draw to me. And it's funny because I've been known that it's called Pittsburgh Draw. But Speed Draw is the running back has to make it work a lot of times because there's no designed hole. So that's really a truly like, hey, go make us right kind of play.

And that's like, oh, God. And that's not just the Steelers to me. I'm just, I picture just Steelers. I just picture Levyon Bell running duo behind the massive offensive line, just close lining people and doing all that stuff, not finesse game that they were running this year and RPO's and all that stuff, or they have for the past couple seasons. It's really hard to be a good pass-blocking offensive linemen in a system that makes you so passive.

It's just really difficult. I think it was the same, excuse me, good run blocking offensive linemen. And I think that the same goes for, like, look at the difference in what Bactiari and guys like Lindley look like now that it's a stress in that offense and it's something they've prioritized rather than what it looked like under McCarthy where it's dropback game 70% of the time. You just become a different run blocker. So if you watch Filer last year, you're not going to see this mauling run blocker, but I think if you put him in a different system, he's going to be more than capable at doing it.

And you're going to get a plus pass blocker at that spot. What's easier for offense alignment, I mean, just any human being, like a, If you're listening to this, just like try and back up, do a five set. Okay, actually, though, this is physics. Think about moving backwards and moving forward. Which one's a lot easier moving forward, correct? That's what run blocking is. And that's what a lot of offense alignment after a while will just look at each other.

And be like, please, please just call a run. Not because they just like are saying like stop the pass. It's not working, but more just like they're gassed. Yeah. It's hard. It's mentally exhausting too, especially if you're playing a pressure team that it's just bringing all these exotics, especially for the center or who else in that he has to look everywhere, every single play.

So it's run, right. That's where some of these guys, they're getting in a system where they're not passing it 58 times and throwing quick game doing all this stuff. It's when you also get in a team that's more balanced and they can run the game or run the ball. These guys get a little more rhythm to their game and ascend when they're in more of a balanced offense.

All right. Who's your last guy? I'm going to go with Keanu Neal. And just because I know, we all know what the hang up with him is. And it's just the injuries. What I think I love about Keanu Neal is he's not just a headhunter. And I think some of his reputation is that he's a hard hitter or just a big hitter.

I think he's just a good football player. He actually has moving abilities. He has position skills. He's heady. I just think he's going to be a great fit for where defenses are going in 2020s. I think with more too high stuff and stuff rotating down, like we've talked about with the Rams, what the Broncos do, with other Fangio, where it starts in two high stuff. and both safeties have to be responsible for coming down.

We've talked about Jordan Fuller with the Rams doing it. I really think in a right situation, if Keanu-Anneal stays healthy and actually does this, he can ascend to the level that Justin Simmons has the last couple of years since Fangio got there and Denver. And I really do think that's his upside. But again, it's just he has to stay healthy. But I do think safety played now more than ever.

It's not free safety, strong safety, or a racer safety, as the Seahawks guys like to call it, which put a bullet in my head. and in the box safety. It's, I think more now, it's true, you know, boundary safety, field safety. It's too high safeties that have to be good and both. They have to be two-way players, just like an NHL player has to be a two-way, you know, a two-way player, two-way center, two-way forward.

That's how safeties have to play now. I think that's where NFL is going, NFL football is going. And I think Keanu is a guy that can ascend in that type of role. It's one of those, I'm going to bring up one stat with it. I do think there is some weight. And I'm sure guys listen to show a poke at this. this. I do think there is a little bit of weight in quarterback rating when targeted. I do think there is some, not always. You just can't look at it and go, yeah, this guy's good. This guy's bad.

You have to take into the context. But I do think it's telling that, yeah, the head hunter, Keanu, like his QB rating when he was targeted was 98.3, which doesn't sound super impressive, but that's pretty damn good for a safety. The guys that were, he was, he did just better than Jordan Fuller and Justin Simmons. For, you know, when he was targeted, that was his QB rating. Those guys had about just over 100. I just think this is a guy. If he stays healthy, that's always going to be the question. Somebody's going to get him a little cheaper than he should be going. And I just think he's a hell of a football player. It can really set the tone for a defense. So I'm going to do one more. I'm going to stick in the secondary here. Another guy that I've

just always really liked, I watch him and it seems like he's always making plays, always around the ball. And that's Kwan Williams from the Niners. So I mean, and I just love, I think that again, I think this is the type of area where free agency can really benefit you. You look at all the slot corners available. There are several of them. That's what he does. He's a slot corner. 5-9-185 little guy.

And that's what he does. But he's a really good one. Not, you know, he's not big, but good technique and solid as a blitzer. You know, a good bend understands timing, things like that. He's physical for someone his size. Like he'll get hands on a guy. I mean, there were times when D.K. McCaff was lined up in the slot.

and he's not afraid to get his hands on DK. Mekaff, and that's what you like to see. And I just, and you know what else I really liked about him? So he's somebody that has been good for a while. I mean, there's a rookie in Cleveland. I remember he was a really good player. I was with him at Pitt. I love K.W.

So I try to get him in Atlanta. He's a really nice player. And one of the things that really jumped out to me is how often he's communicating pre-snap. Always, always pointing stuff out, always trying to get guys in the right spot. And those middle of the defense defenders, that little trying. angle of communication between your nickel, your linebackers, and your safeties is really important. And he just seems to have such a good handle on that kind of stuff. And like we're talking about, if he's available at age 30 on a two-year deal worth $4 million

bucks a year, that's a starter. That's a guy who plays 70% of your snaps and will instantly, I think, make your defense better. So, I mean, I've said them a couple times, but if I'm looking at teams, he makes perfect sense for the Browns. Joe Woods was there. He knows that system extremely well. That's a team that is just going to be injecting as much as they can on defense. I think they add at least four new defensive starters in free agency. And if you can do it for $4 million a year when you're trying to find bargains and you're trying to figure out the best ways to spend your money, to me he's the perfect sort of guy to chase if you're trying to be smart about free agency. I think it's very telling that

Kyle Shanahan was around K-Wan for one year in Cleveland, 2014, and then gets finally has personnel, you know, he dictates personnel in Sanford, and who he's immediately signed Kwan Williams from three years, four years prior. So obviously something stuck with him there. And I'm a big fan of Kwan. I think, yeah, like you said, he might be a slot only guy, but guess what? That's a starter now. That's, that's an 80.

That's, he's playing 45 snaps a game. and he's good at it. He's physical even for his size. No, I'm a big fan of Kwan. I think he's one of those super role players that winning teams have that, yeah, he's not going to be playing. He's not going to be a pro bowler. He's not going to be playing outside and sexy.

But he's a guy that plays a lot of snaps and he plays winning football for a lot of snaps. And that's what winning teams get. They get a lot of those types of guys. I think Woods likes him. I think that that would make a lot of sense. Again, that's the team I would watch, but he could make sense for any team that needs a nickel corner.

I think with a team like Buffalo who's a nickel all the time. they might be a little bit worried about how physical he is in the run game and whether or not he can hold up down in and down out. But for a team that isn't afraid to go to base in the right spots and you're really just playing him in not to find passing situations, but you're not lining him up on most first and tens. I think that he could be a really useful piece for somebody. And that's what we're talking about. I mean, there's every flavor of guy in free agency. If you use free agency as a tool and not your guiding principle, there are things.

to be won and guys to be had and values to be found. And I think the guys that we talked about, that's what we're trying to dictate. Yep. And that's these types of guys like that my, I'm going to throw on my honorable mention just because I have notes on, but Eric Wilson, that's a type of guy. He's not a three down guy, but he has value. And that's what free agency is. I think that's where winning teams are built because, yeah, we, we want to award the

guys that signed the guys for the highest price and, oh, man, this guy set the record for this. wow, they set three deals signing these guys, this guy and this guy. But then it's also, it's usually the middle class guys or the lower middle class guys that sign a one or two year deals that really make the difference for teams. And guys like Kwan Williams and really the guy I just brought up Eric Wilson, but Melvin Ingrams of the world, these types of guys that might not be your pro bowlers, your stars, but these are the guys that build your team and let you play winning football

and go to playoffs and win the Super Bowl. These are the types of guys that winning teams have. Awesome. That's all we got, buddy. We'll be back next week. I think that the next show you and I are doing, we're switching up next week's schedule a little bit because of how free agency is falling. We're going to do a live free agency reaction to the first day of free agency on Wednesday.

So that is the next time we will see you. Until then, it's always nice to talk to you, buddy. I'm very excited now to welcome someone I definitely wanted to have on and have this conversation with. I don't know how to introduce you. You work at so many places. I'm not sure what the best way to do this is. Richard Johnson, how you doing, man? I'm doing good.

Yeah, whenever I do something like this or whatever, someone's like, so like how do I introduce you or whatever? And I always say what I said to you before we went on air, what I'm just like, just swing it to me because there's way too many places. The main place is my podcast, my college football podcast, split zone duo, where all the takes me and Alex Kirchner host. But I'm in a lot of places. I've been in Slate.

I've been in 538. I've been in the Washington Post. I'm on the SEC Network. And hopefully we'll be back on the SEC Network this upcoming football season. So I am in a lot of places, which is what happens when you sort of take the freelance route like I have after whatever it is that we call last year, the shakeup in the industry and in my professional life. So, yeah, I'm everywhere. And on Twitter at RJ Wright's is the main hub where you can get plenty of, takes but in at some point content so when i was thinking about the plan we wanted to have for free

agency this year one of the things i usually gravitate toward is kind of the teams that hold a lot of the carts the teams that in a lot of ways can dictate how the offense all the offseason is going to go whether that's with the amount of cap space they have their draft position everything else no team is better positioned to control the offseason than the jacksonville jaguars obviously they have the number one pick they have the most cap space in league they have to two first round picks. You happen to be very well positioned to talk about this. Unfortunately.

As a college football writer who pays attention to the NFL and is a Jaguars fan, I couldn't think of anyone else I wanted to have this conceptual discussion with more than you. Because if you look at the Jags, and we'll get to some of the pieces that are in place and should stay there. But outside of two or three or four guys, this is an entirely blank slate for how you'd build a team with an endless pool of resources. So it's almost an experiment in how you'd want to build a football team from scratch.

And I just think that's a really interesting way to think about it. Yeah, it's almost too much of a blank slate. Yes. Like I almost wish they were hamstrung at like one position or like on one side of the ball or something like that because like you're like the mind runs or. wild at both what they have to do to turn around on one in 15 program, but also what they can do. And obviously having the first pick, like, it's just from the moment the Jets beat the Browns that day, like your mind just runs wild with the potential.

And to Urban Myers credit, like he has not shied away from the fact that this is the most consequential Jaguars off season, probably ever. I mean, if you want to say after 2017, okay, so in that case, it's at least in the last two decades. But even after 2017, you're locked into that version of your roster. Exactly. Like, spent money, there wasn't much they could do. And that's why the Bortles extension happens. When you spend that much money on free agency. Don't bring the Bortle's extension up. Trust me. My team, all the quarterback woes I've been through, I don't have any room to talk. But that's why you have to do stuff like that. Because when you spend in free agency the way they did in 2017, there's very little wiggle room. So even if you think you're on the

precipice, it's going to be really difficult to replicate that success because you don't have a lot of different places you can go. Now they have everywhere to go. So let's start with some pieces we think not only are going to be kind of decided for 2021, places that we don't think there will be a new starter, but also guys who might be building blocks moving forward. Let's start on offense. The number one area of this team that's kind of, I guess, quote unquote, solved for this year is the offensive line. There is a chance that I want to say all five starters or four of the five starters are currently on the roster. All five. So bringing back Cam Robinson, I think is Cam Robinson was brought back on the franchise tag, people who don't know their left tackle.

I think sort of surprising, but in other ways to me, not that surprising. What was your reaction when you heard they were going to do that. My reaction was that they whiffed on Orlando Brown was my reaction. Yeah. The Jaguars, you know, you talk to some people, the Jaguars were not too keen on parting with the 25th pick. If I'm the Raven, by the way, everybody needs to know. The Jaguars have two first round picks.

It's not just the first pick. When you trade away the whole roster to the Rams, that means you get another first round pick back. So yes, for Jalen Ramsey, they have that first round pick. I, they were not too keen to come off the 25th pick. And I think because of that, the Ravens on the other side, I think we both understand how much they value Orlando Brown. And, you know, if the Jaguars aren't going to part with the 25th pick,

it's probably going to be a non-starter. So, okay, we're not going to get Orlando Brown. What's next? I don't think Cam Robinson or honestly, this whole offensive line, is bad. I think like most of the rest of the league, they're in that mushy middle. Like they're not one of the five teams in the NFL

that have like a good certifiably good offensive line. I think they are shades of gray as far as as skills. You know, you've got five guys that you know that you can count on. The normal contract isn't awesome as far as how he, he's played up to that deal. I mean, it was a, it was a market setting deal for a guard. Which never made sense to me in the moment when they signed it, but that's a whole other conversation. That's Tom Coughlin for you. Um, well, you know, I think Linder is a certifiably good center. Um, I think Cam Robinson can be good on the left side. You know, I, AJ can. Good. John Taylor,

I think needs to kick on. He had a good rookie year. But, you know, I don't think he really progressed last season. Disappointing, I would say. I remember in week two of last year, we had Joe Thomas on, and we were talking about young tackles in the league that he liked. And we had a long conversation about Juan Taylor, because I think we both expected an assent from him in his second year. And that just never seemed to take hold.

I don't think this offensive line is a net negative. I agree. I think you can, I think you can march into battle next year with this offensive line, with this offensive line not playing from behind, 92% of, you can march into battle. of its snaps, I think you can march into battle with this offense line and get something done. I think that the logic behind bringing Robinson back makes sense to me. Because if you're going to use the number one overall pick on Trevor Lawrence and you're going to have your franchise in place here in about a month and a half, two months,

having that left tackle spot figured out is a benefit. Because you don't know how the market's going to shake out. When they decided to franchise Cam Robinson, they didn't know Eric Fisher was going to get released. They didn't know Riley Urefe was going to get released. Is it possible you could get? better play than what you got from Cam Robinson for about $14 million a year, maybe. But that spot is pretty treacherous in free agency.

So having a solution there in the short term, I think is smart because having him there on the franchise tag doesn't preclude you from taking a tackle with a 25th overall pick if you like one and having him be your starter starting next season. This team needs to understand its timeline and I don't think this is a dead end when it comes to adding more talent at that position. I think that's all that matters. Right. I think timeline is also the other thing that's really key here. Like, look at what the dolphins just did. The dolphins went from being awful to scraping the playoffs. I mean, this team is not going to win the Super Bowl next year. I don't think anybody has any delusions of grandeur there. Can this team conceivably contend for a wildcar birth? Sure. But like, because you're not Super Bowl or bust this year like they were in 2018, for instance, the timeline, I think, is something that, you know, every, Everybody wants it now. Lord knows I want it now. But like, it's okay to not have the world right now, not have the roster set set right now because it's not going to be in its final form really September 1st.

And I think I want to get into that when we talk about some of the free agents. But let's go to the defensive side of the ball. Are there any spots over there that you think dead set? There is a roadblock to people starting. I don't even think about this position in the draft of free agency. linebackers um miles jack is good miles jack is miles a good by jaguar standards he's just good he's yeah my my house jack is a good football player um joe showbert it's a lot of money expensive football player it's it's a lot of money um it's a lot of money for a guy who's not the greatest run defender in the world um okay um on the defensive line i don't think they're as bad as people may think on the defensive line. You know, they may be flipping over the scheme a little bit. I happen to like Devon Hamilton a lot at defense.

I know. I think he's an interior defensive lineman that people should sort of keep an eye out for. You know, on the other end at three technique, they've got some talent there, not Taven Brian. I'm not talking about Taven Brian. But I think they got a little bit there. Josh Allen, everybody knows is sort of the thing that they're going to hang their hat on. Kalevon Chaston, who you asked me about before we went on, is at edge is, we got to see a little bit more from Caleb on Chase on.

But I don't think they are that poor up front, but the secondary. They just don't have anything in the secondary. I would argue at, if you're running a nickel, at four of the five positions. and at the fifth one, I don't really love C.J. Anderson. I didn't like that pick. I think they picked him because he was there last year. And I get it, but they have to revamp that entire secondary. I mean, you hear Urban Meyer say it. Urban Meyer wants to build that defense front to back, I should say. So maybe they will end up splashing on a defensive lineman or two this year. I think, you know, Trent Ballke, he's the general manager. So, yeah, you could see them getting like an Alden Smith on the bar.

bargain barrel or something like that and kicking the tires on that. They also don't think calling as their defensive coordinator now. They've been former defensive line coaches the guy calling the shots. I'm assuming he's going to want as much talent as possible up there. And yeah, and if they're going to run a scheme anything like what the Ravens do, I mean, they need some hosses up there because they need to get after it. So I don't know. The thing that the thing that keeps me up at night about the Jaguars is the offense.

And obviously that means the quarterback. You know, we didn't talk about what happens at wide receiver, but I think they are absolutely without a doubt spending some serious money at wide receiver. I think they're probably going to spend some serious money at tight end. They may use a late round. So let's go there. Yeah. So let's go there.

So if you are, so now we're sitting here. If those are the spots that are handled, essentially linebacker, one of the edge spots, Jason is a conversation we can have. It's not great that last year was, even though the new regime came in this year, last year was the first year of the rebuild because you have those two first round picks. The fact that neither of those two first round picks looked very good in their first year is a problem. I went back and I watched the first half of Chasen's games today. I didn't watch the second half of the season, which I probably should have. He's just not built to play in the league.

I mean, and we knew that. He's so slight, you're watching that first game against the Colts, just getting thrown around. And obviously that offensive line is going to do that to a lot of people, but he is he's going to need to put on a lot more weight because even like bendy stuff where he's a part of games and things like that if a guy gets his hands on him at all it's done it's over and that's the problem is you have to have some semblance of strength even if being long and bendy and everything else is what you do unless you're Brian burns where you have perfected some of those moves that come along with being that style of player it's a long road to be impactful when you're built like that you move like that you weigh what he does all you're all that other stuff. Yeah, that's the thing I like. That's the thing I like about Josh. Like Josh Allen, they'll bring him in and like on some games and stuff and they'll line him up over a guard and he can make something shake there.

Yeah. I mean, with Jason, it's just he needs to be a lot stronger, but we knew that. And let's see. Maybe in year two, that's a little bit better. But let's just say, offensive line is set. Line is set. And maybe you need one edge rush or not two. And that's where we stop.

So if that's kind of the going rate here, that's what we're starting with. How would you go about? putting together the perfect Jaguars offseason. Where would you start? As far as let's talk free agency and spending money. Like I said, wide receiver and tight end, you have to spend money. John Hussmith is the fever dream. I know Hunter Henry's out there too. You have to spend money there. And Urban Meyer is. Urban Meyer did a press conference a couple days ago and basically was like, we have to shake up that whole tight end room. And I was like, yeah, well, I agree. Wide receivers, I really, really like DJed Shark, probably too much.

I think that DJ Chark, in a mini Alan Robinson way, has never had a quarterback to throw him the ball consistently. That's any good. And I think when he gets that, you will see a very, very bright young player. I cannot wait to see what this coaching staff does with Leviska-Schenalt as sort of a movable piece at the wide receiver spot. What do you think is the best way to use him?

Because when I went back and I was watching some of his targets earlier, I was kind of shocked at how often he was just being used as a real outside receiver not as the sort of guy I thought he was going to be coming in the league just because you forget how big he is. He's a weird player. Big guy. I'm excited about him, but what do you think is the best deployment of him? Like if you were trying to picture the way another team uses somebody with his similar

skill set, like do you think the way that the Jag or excuse me, the Niners use like Brandon Ayyuk is the way you'd want to use him? Yeah, I think it's, I think he's more of an inside threat. And I also think some of that, like some of the Wildcat stuff that they did a little bit, Jay Gruden was putting him in Wildcat a little bit here and there. That stuff can work just because of the type of athlete he can be. But like I bring him up because I don't know if he can be your number two wide receiver. I don't think Leviska-Shanaut should be your number two wide receiver.

Keel and Cole is there who they like. I like Keel and Cole. Don't love him enough to also. That's another guy who I'm like, I don't think Keel and Cole should be your number two wide receiver. And so they've got a guy who I think is a number one or a number two in DJ Shark. And they've got a bunch of guys who you need another alpha in the wide receiver room. They are complementary parts. They are not primary parts.

And that's where I think at that position wide receiver, you got to spend money. And yes, that probably means you are going to overpay somebody. And I know we don't love it, but that's free agency. So who do you, in terms of skill set, what do you think is necessary? Do you want like a true outside? option to go with Chark and then having Chanel on the inside. Is that how you view the pieces fitting together? I think Chark can be outside.

I just think if you listen to Urban Meyer, though, they just need somebody fast. Somebody really, real fast. So speed is the number one aspect that you're looking for. Speed is the number one aspect. You know, I think they need Will Fuller. Is that something that interests you? Yeah, I think you can get behind that because I think they need somebody or somebody else who can take the top

off the defense. Like if you've got got a guy, if you're sort of structuring a passing game with these complementary parts and you've got Chark and you've got Chonelt, you need somebody else who's going to sort of push the boundaries, push the umbrella off a defense so that potentially Chanel can work underneath or Chark can work underneath, something like that. You need a passing game that is indeed complimentary right now. And you need something to sort of unlock that and they don't have that right now. I think that makes totally sense.

You know, they may, maybe as far as speed, maybe they go after like a Curtis Samuel or something like that. You know, I don't know. Everybody's dream was Alan Robinson. I don't know if that was actually going to happen, even if Alan Robinson wasn't franchise tagged. Goliday, maybe, I don't know. But, you know, they have the money.

And in my opinion, man, spend it. Even though I know, even though I know intuitively teams that spend in free agency a ton don't win. But this is, in my opinion, or my hope, I should say, a unique situation where you have all this cap, but you also have all these picks. So I don't know. It's also one of the scenario where the market is going to be full of players that aren't typically hitting free agency. There isn't that much money out there. I think if you were going to spend in any given year, this would be the year to do it. and that's why I feel like they're in a really good spot.

Having all of this cap space is a benefit in a time where there are going to be more players available and potentially at a cheaper prices than there ever has been. As far as these contracts get structured, right? And I guess it's sort of the DAC thing. When we sort of really learn the nitty gritty on the DAC thing, this year the Jaguars have all this cap space in a year where the cap stays roughly where it is slash goes down kind of. But if I'm the Jaguars, the cap is. going to go up again once we get out of this deal, you know, coronavirus and all this kind of

stuff. Once we get out of this and those new TV deals kick in, the cap is going to go up again. So in my, like if you're a team like the Jags with all this space, why not operate like a semi-normal year as far as doling out contracts if the cap is going to rebound again in the near future? I don't think that's dumb at all. I think what I would do is weaponize the cap space. that you have. And by doing that, I think you operate like the Niners did a couple years ago. And when they signed that Garoppolo contract and it was totally front-loaded and he had like the biggest cap hit in the NFL for one year, but now he's making $25 million in a world

where quarterbacks are making $35. That's what I would do. I would try to use as much cap spaces I'd have or can now while I have it. And then the cap hits even out a little bit as you go. As the cap's going up, you're not going to hamstring yourself at all. So in this year where you have a lot of it, if you're willing to spend the cash, I think it would be worth it. That's what I would do because I think there's no reason not to you when you have all of that room. Yeah. And you have this sort of truckload of draft picks too,

so you're going to get these guys in. Like they have a very nice opportunity to build a lot of depth very quickly. It's two ones, two threes, and two fours. Like it's a lot of big or two twos. Maybe it's two twos. Yeah, it's two ones, two twos and two fours. It's a lot of picks. And this, this roster can very quickly get an infusion of cheap tax. And it's a lot of tax. And it's, cheap talent. And of course, they're going to have sort of the diamond in the rough in sports like the chiefs just taught us, which is hopefully fingers crossed, a really good quarterback on an insanely affordable deal for three to four years. And that's why I think if you spend on a couple pass catchers, and that's the spot where you want it, because I think obviously if you look at what

happened in last year's draft and over the last three or four years, there's never been a better time to need past catchers in the draft. It's deeper than it's ever been. You're going to be able find contributors in rounds that you typically haven't been able to in the past. But if they really believe, again, going back to the timeline, if they really believe the offense can be good right away, receiving talent is typically something that translates from team to team in contract to contract. You get what you pay for for the most part.

So if you want to go get a Curtis Samuel or a guy like Wolfofer, because you think the offense can be good immediately, I think that's an interesting idea. Same with Jono Smith. And you try to use your picks on positions where there's a little bit more scarcity, like a tackle, like another pass rusher, like another outside corner, stuff like that. So that plan makes sense to me. So if you're going to the other side of the ball, are there positions in free agency that you think,

let's spend big here because of the players available, because of how I want to build, all that stuff? Safety is non-negotiable. I don't care what it costs. Get me two safeties that can ball. they just have to get it. They need another corner. They do need another outside corner. But I think you, safety, you just have to spend there.

I don't care how much it costs. You just have to get a safety. Is there anybody amongst? Is there anybody among this group that you really like? What about Lamarcus Joyner? What does Lamarcus Joyner have left in the tank, right? What is the guy, you know, I know he's a little bit old, he's over 30, but Lamarcus Joyner is there.

Malik Hooker there Keanu Neal I'm a Gator fan Keanu Neal is always going to peak my interest there there are guys at the position that you can go get right now that don't have to be Justin Simmons or that aren't Justin Simmons

I think we had this conversation with Jason Fitzgerald earlier this week about how you can make free agency work for you and I think safety is one of those spots that if you're looking for difference makers you're probably going to end up disappointed in free agency if you're looking for solutions you might not be

If you just need guys there who you can rely on and who can play, who can be stopgap players for you, I think this year in general, or this year and over the last three or four years in general, that's a spot where that can be found in free agency. You can find multiple starters even if you want to. And guys like Joyner, Hooker, maybe Neil, I think Neil is probably going to make a decent amount of money.

But Hooker and Joyner, I mean, their stocks have never been lower than they are right now. So if you can bring those guys in on reasonable deals, then I think it makes sense. And I think this, it also speaks to, building a modern football team, right? When we are building a defense, what are we building? We're not trying to build the 85 bears.

We're not trying to build the 2017 Jaguars, for God's sakes. Just build a team that can hold somebody under 30 points. That's all I care about. I also think that similar, if you, let's shift to the draft a little bit, that's where having that just army of second round picks is really useful. because I think that secondary depth is one of the best ways to use those second, third round selections recently.

You look at the way the Bucks built. I think there are a lot of- Antoine Winfield is, yes, the blueprint. And I mean, him and also just the corners that they picked. And I think that if you try to take as many dice rolls as you can, both free agency and the draft, I think that I love the way that some teams like Buffalo have said, all right, we have a need at this spot. And I think the rotational spots are where it's most effective. We have a need at interior pass rusher. We have a need it safety.

We have a need in the secondary. Signing three or four guys and hoping two or three of those guys hit tends to be a way to find solutions at those spots. And that's why the Jags are in such an interesting position. What do you do? Do you try to go sign stars with your free agent money? Or do you try to sign three or four guys for the price of two so you have solutions at certain starting starting starting starting

spots and then you build up your roster through the draft. That is a philosophical question they have to answer. Considering the way that they're going to build this defense too, like I know Urban sort of talked about sort of building it front or back, but you think about what the guys on the back end are probably going to be asked to do, like find guys because you are going to be asking those guys to play a style that is really sink or swim. you're going to be asking guys to play in a style where they can't necessarily hide,

where you can't necessarily hide them. And we're not even really trying to hide deficiencies on their back end. So find guys on the back end of that defense. What did he do? Because their defensive backs coach, I believe, is somebody that worked with Irvin at Ohio State for several years. And Joe Cohen. It's Chris Ash.

Chris Ash is a defensive backs coach. And then Cullen comes from a place that they were blitzing all the time and playing a ton of man coverage. So if those are, and then stylistically, what did they do a lot of at Ohio State? Was it a lot of man coverage? Oh, yeah. I mean, Ohio State, it was.

Well, because they have the corners to do it. Yeah, Ohio State. So this is the funny thing. This is basically what got them in trouble in the National Championship game against Alabama. They have been trying to play this sort of NFLE single high till I die scheme. And it finally cut up with them because they lost the corners last season, 2019 season that were so good.

So this year, Ohio State had Sean Wade, who was a really, really good slot corner. Like when Sean Wade comes up for the draft time and you're going to ask me about Sean Wade and I'm going to tell you, don't watch 2020. Watch 2019 when they were playing him inside and he could tackle and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, in 2020, Ohio State still sort of the vestiges of what they were doing under Urban Meyer were sort of playing this single high till I die scheme. and they did not have the corners to do it at all. And they were asking some linebackers to carry.

They were asking a linebacker to carry Devante Smith. So needless to say that didn't go well. So yeah, I think that that is the defensive back core right now is a position that I think is really interesting when you bring up somebody like the Bucks who just swung and swung and swung. And then two years later you see these guys, they're like, whoa, Sean Murphy Bunting, Carlton, David, where these guys come from.

Yeah, because they took so many risks at that position, you come out on the other end, having the ability to do a lot of stuff with those guys because you've sort of separated the way from the shave. So, and that's the question you have to ask, right? So if you're thinking about how we need to find corners who can play that style, the best way to find those corners is typically not through free agency

because those quality of corners don't hit free agency. Think about the way the Ravens have built theirs, right? They traded for Marcus Peters. I think trading for a guy like that makes a lot of sense. They draft Marlon Humphrey and they drafts Jimmy Smith. None of those guys are free agent additions. And I think that that is the way you should probably think about this. If you're going to play a really man-heavy scheme,

trying to find foundational pieces in the second round or with the 25th pick may be smarter than using the free agent money you have right now to roll the dice on a guy in this class that's hitting free agency for a reason. I think that spending on safety makes more sense because you can do it in a more controlled way where there's more certainty than spending on corner does. Yeah, I dig that. I dig that. And like, it's funny because they, like, the best player on their defense is Miles Jack,

who they, who they, like, intentionally played out of position for two seasons. And then they played him at his regular position last year. And he really sort of shined as Diamond in the Rough Fur, admittedly a bad team so nobody cares. But it's sort of funny to be relatively set at linebacker in this league and look around to your secondary and think, oh boy, we don't really have a ton there. So let's lay this whole plan out in succession here then. So we're going to go spend on a couple past catchers in free agency.

Like big time guys. Curtis Samuel, Jonu Smith, adding that to the offense. That's a, you know, that's a decent chunk of change, but affordable. So at safety, I think that safety is such an interesting group. So you mentioned Malie Cooker, guys like Duran Harmon are hitting free agency, Trey Boston's hitting for agency, Jukwisky, Tart, guys that I think you can find at reasonable prices to start for you. So let's say they find one of those guys. And then I think slot corner is the other spot in this class that you can find a ton of starters.

Brian Poole, K-Wan Williams is somebody that's interesting to me. We talked about him earlier on the show. So if you find a safety and let's say a slot corner, in free agency and then use either your first round pick or your second round pick on your other outside corner, that's a team. Like that to me is the way that they can approach this. If they're really throwing their financial weight around, finding two starters in the secondary and two pass catchers, and then using their first and second round picks on a tackle

and a corner in some sequence, that makes this a very interesting team. And I think that's a way to maximize the absurd amount of resources they have coming into the off season. Yeah, and the other thing that people like, I think people are going to, people sort of forget about when you talk about what these guys are going to be asked to do, right? Like, they're not in the AFC North, man. Like, they don't have two games against the Browns and two against, you know, two against the Ravens. They're playing a Titans team that's going to regress, in my opinion. And look, this is the Homer hat.

But they're playing a Titans team that's going to regress. They're playing a Houston Texan team that, please God, doesn't have Deshaun. Watson. And then they're playing Carson Wentz. So I understand that the cults are always going to be solid and they're the thing that you sort of can can count on in in that division. But the Titans scare me less and less and less, particularly because Arthur Smith is not there. And as far as a window, maybe the Titans window is about done. And I think the Texans might quite literally be the worst team in the NFL next year. So the window of opportunity for this team is opening up. And that also fits with the timeline. Now, if we want to really extrapolate this and get

pie in the sky as far as, yeah, they are on the harder side of the NFL considering the fact that, man, I think you and Lindsay may have talked about this. If let's pretend Trevor Lawrence pans out, the AFC quarterbacks are absolutely insane as far as what is going to be happening for the next like 10 January. Like, in a decade, we're going to look back and think that guy was incredible and maybe because luck of the draw, similar to Aaron Rogers, he didn't get another Super Bowl or he never got back, right? Like, it's just something like that is as far as when I really dream the things that keep me up at night and you really sort of play out the string here on what the AFC and the NFL are going to be.

It's just really interesting right now, the sort of inflection point, I guess, is the word. But I also, I'm with you. I think they have a window of opportunity to be really good quickly in a division that is theirs for the taking if they make the right moves. The other little tiny thing I'm going to do is we're going to move on from Andrew Norwalk and use that $9 million to sign a replacement guard and another piece in the secondary. That's what we're going to do. I know a lot of people want to do that. I don't even necessarily mind it because like you said, save $9 million. But my question is how do you clearly upgrade that position slash do you really have like would it be easier to get rid of Andrew Norwell

and get replacement level at that position? Like, is that as easy as I think it might be? Yes. Especially in this group of free agents. There are a ton of starting level guards available. That's what I'm talking about with the difference of finding a difference maker versus a solution at a spot,

especially like guard. You can find a $5 million guard in this class that gives you 75% of what Andrew Norwell does and then use that other $10 million to get another starter. And I think that's the way that you'd have to think about it. It's really, and they may say, you know what, we got $70 million in cap space. It's going to be $6 million in dead money.

That's only a $9 million gap. If we're going to be signing his replacement for five, that only leaves us with $4 million, there's a chance that's where they land and they go with the continuity along the offensive line, which again, we talked about it's really important with bringing Lawrence in. But I still think there are different little things they can do because, like, we started this conversation with. This is a blank slate. This is a way to paint your vision of a football team in a single off season because you have more resources than anyone in the league at a time

when resources are in all time low. And the funny thing about Norwell is we talk about cut candidates. He may be on the chopping block because it sort of seems like they went to him and asked him to restructure and he told him to kick rocks. I would too. And I completely understand that because cut me, I'll take my money and I'll go somewhere else. He's going to get signed very. quickly if that happens. So we'll see what happens. They're in a really good spot. They hold the cards.

I mean, they are the guy at the end of your fantasy draft that has like $250 left over when everybody else is buying $1 players. Like that's what the Jags are right now. And I think that's why they're in the driver's seat for this offseason, which should be wild to watch. Then you sort of get around to who is making these moves. And I know we didn't talk a lot of...

That's a totally different conversation. I know we didn't talk about you want to talk about stuff that keeps me up at night and now it's it's who's making these moves it's that and when we talk about carte blanche when we talk about it's such a blank canvas that's again where you think about this new regime urban meyer slash old sort of NFL football guy stance and trent bulky like how how is that going to clash you know in the boardroom with with roster composition and urban Meyer already said that he's going to sort of lean on bulky which. which is a whole other sort of separate issue. It is fascinating in ways good and bad, the Jacksonville Jack Wars are. And I think you have to consider, like you said, building through free agency and how treacherous it can be. But how do you structure those deals? Because one of the, I guess, benefits they have is they have no young players coming up. So if you want to push a lot of this money into this year and next year, it's about opportunity cost.

It's not precluding you from retaining your own guys that you, want to because there are no guys that you want to retain that are going to be up for contract extensions in the next couple of years. When the Colts are thinking about the way they want to spend their $40 million in cap space this year, in the back of their minds, they have to be thinking about, well, we got to pay Quentin Nelson, we got to pay Darius Leonard, we got to pay Braden Smith. The Jaguars have none of those considerations. So free agency is only bad when the money you allocate a free agent stops you from doing

other things. And the Jaguars have so few other things they can do with the money, then I think it opens up some avenues that other teams don't have. It's not a good problem to have. It's actually a bad thing. Exactly. They just put one in 15. So,

Richard Johnson, thank you very much. Really good to chat with you. Very glad we can do this. I hope people please go check out all of his work at all of the spots he's at right now. And we'll catch up down the road, man. Thank you very much. Anytime, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we got today.

Thank you so much to Nate and Richard for stopping by. It's always good to get really deep into the weeds with Nate because that's exactly where we got today. We'll be back next week, very excited about some of the stuff that we have to round out our free agency coverage, including just the reactions that we're going to have when players start getting signed. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast

on your podcast platform of choice. It would mean a lot to me. Please subscribe to the athletic. I'm going to be writing again. again for early next week doing a little bit of free agency coverage we have so much great stuff on there right now sheel is just a madman i just have no idea how he's putting out all that stuff the only way to read it is with an athletic subscription so please go do that the athletic dot com slash football show we'll be back early next week until then talk to you guys soon

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