The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 10 Monday Hangover — Lions-Bears, Chargers-49ers, Saints-Steelers, Texans-Giants

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

We wake up on another Monday during the NFL season with a set of games we simply couldn't get to on our Sunday recap. And so, Robert Mays and Mike Sando dig into Lions-Bears, Chargers-49ers, Saints-Steelers and Texans-Giants on the Monday Hangover. The guys talk Justin Fields, plans in Detroit and Pittsburgh, what's next for the Saints, and takeaways for the Chargers and Niners.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube2:35 Where do the Lions go from here?11:55 Another big day for Justin Fields27:55 Where exactly are the Giants?47:34 What's next for the Saints?62:04 How do the Steelers build around Kenny Pickett?70:24 Quick look at Chargers-49ers Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, it's the athletic zone. Mike, how you doing, man? I am doing well. Love this. Love it every week.

We're getting better at it. Let's do it again. We're going to talk about four games today. As we always do on the Monday hangover. We're going to chat a little Niners Chargers. We'll get to it when we talk about it. Not as interesting of a game as I thought. Rewatching it.

Not a ton of takeaway. So we're going to save that. for the end. We talked some Steelers Saints. So two teams in kind of weird, precarious spots, really excited to dig into that conversation. We're going to get a little Giants, Texans. We're going to kick things off, though, with the game that happened in my hometown yesterday, a 31 to 30 Detroit Lions victory at Soldier Field. Another weird one for the Bears. We'll get into what that might mean, whether or not I should be happy that they're losing, but Justin Fields looks good. But I want to start with Detroit, because the Lions are one or two plays away.

from losing this game yesterday. I mean, you can name a bunch of them, but the one that sticks with me is if Jalen Johnson doesn't get what I thought was kind of a cheap, weird, illegal hands to the face penalty on a Jack Sandborn interception, this thing is over.

And the Lions lose another game where they give up 30 points and look totally hapless on defense. And we've talked about this a little bit in relation to the Lions about when we need to start seeing some real results, what reasonable expectations should be.

I want to look at the Lions' defense specifically and kind of ask you where you think they went wrong. And as we're building a plan over the next year, as we get into your three of this rebuild, what do you think their mindset and approach needs to be on that side of the ball? Okay. So obviously you need better players on the defensive side. But I feel like they have been unsound scheme standpoint, trying to do a lot of cute things with people way up at the line of scrimmage who are dropping out and you don't know

what's going to happen, but sometimes you don't really care. It's just, I would like to see an audit, like at the franchise level of, okay, are we doing the right things from a scheme standpoint on defense? How do we want to play? How should we play with our personnel? What else do we need? Because I feel like they don't do the basic things well, and they're trying to do advanced things well, which don't matter when you can't do the basics well. And so you see consistently with them things where you have to kind of play it back and you're like, okay, what were they doing here? Wait, this guy was in this spot to try to deceive the offense, but then he had to run back 30 yards and cover somebody and we gave up an 11-yard pass on 3rd and 10.

That type of thing seems to happen. So if you look at the game yesterday, the Chicago game, some of those big plays, I mean, it's amazing Justin Fields. but, you know, their cornerback is like doing a pirouette, not even looking at him on the edge there, and doesn't even know he's out of the gate until five yards later. Well, do you think the quarterback run for the guy who can go 70 yards in every play is a potential component of the play? Or do you think they're just going to dive inside every time?

It didn't seem that complicated. It wasn't like some amazing trick play. This wasn't Mike Rable dialing up a flea flicker. This is what they do. And I see that all the time with them. So I would have real questions like at the 30,000 foot level, the GM level, the president level, because it shouldn't be this bad. I think if you could just strive to be 20th overall on defense, you're moving two or three

of these into the win column. They scored 40 some points on Seattle and lost, right? I mean, how do you do that? And that's my big problem with them. It's got it. It's not just a player thing. It's a soundness thing for the. them that I think they need to reassess.

It's strange to me just because Aaron Glenn doesn't really come from this world when you look at what the Saints have been over the last few years. You know, the Saints play a decent amount of man coverage and they'll get in your face and push you around. But they don't blitz at the rate that the Lions have blitzed, especially on third down over the last couple seasons. Their blitz rate overall has increased a lot in 2022, almost like eight or nine percentage points.

But they blitzed a ton on third down last year and played a decent amount of man coverage. And I have to assume that's just because we don't have much corner talent. We don't really love our pass rushers. They drafted eight Hudson with the second pick overall this year, which we can talk about. But it seems like this is the best solution that we have. The giants live like this, where it's a lot of blitzing and a lot of craziness because we know that we have to do something weird in order to make up for the gap we have in talent. But the lions just aren't executing that plan.

So I wonder going into next season, if they use some of the money that they have, some of the resources that they have to try to upgrade the secondary, really for the first time since this regime got there. Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell and Aaron Glenn, they've really kind of gotten by with the players on the back end. And if they do upgrade those spots, do they change their identity defensively or is this who they want to be? I'm just not sure about that because the overall recipe and who they're trying to be isn't what I necessarily expected when Aaron Glenn took that job two years ago. No. And I don't think it's an old. overall crisis panic situation, as long as you get a few of these wins along the way, right?

I think it's really hard to keep the faith in your program and everything you're doing when every single one of these games goes the other way. You talk about 50-50 ball. This is a 50-50 game. This is a game right there who go either way. And they've had several of these go the other way. They're real close. And so this is good for them the last couple weeks to get a couple of these. I'm with you, though, in the off-season, I think that's the direction they need to go. And we can see in other areas of the team, there's been real progress with the offense. There is things we're anxious to see they're going to do. Maybe there'll be a, obviously a rookie quarterback as part of that. So as long as you get enough, some kind of results,

the other thing I'd like to see is some kind of a progress and ability on defense to get better at what we're doing. I think that is a hallmark of good coaching. I have seen that. You live in Chicago area. I live in Seattle area. Seattle many times has been really bad on defense for the start of the year or whatever. But there's usually a part where they change something or figured up. And it doesn't stay that way the whole season, right? You have some sort of a remedy, something to at least get average. And I think we saw that as Seattle won four in a row.

It wasn't, Geno Smith's doing great, but it wasn't just all Geno Smith. They held some people down finally for a few weeks. You have to be able to win some games that way. And so for them, I would like to see that. Maybe in some ways the Green Bay game was a start of that. I think the Packers had a lot to do with that. But, you know, they're going to have a good example. It'll be like the Giants this week.

The Giants have to play a certain way. Hopefully the Giants aren't putting up 35 points, right? We should be able to have a game that's 21 to 17 or we win the game. They were 31st in EPA per dropback last season. They're 31st in EPA per dropback this season. I think that's the most disheartening part is that there's been no progress. And they haven't really spent over there, right? They used the second overall pick on Hutchinson.

They drafted Josh Pascal in the second round. He just started playing this season. They really haven't invested outside of a third round pick in Kirby Joseph, any draft capital in the secondary. So you look at a team like the Jets, who finished dead last in EPA for dropback last year. The Jets spent an insane amount of resources on their defense this offseason in order to get better.

So you'd hope that they'd be some improvements. So maybe if you're trying to be optimistic, you say, well, this might be the offseason when they can pump a little bit of money into it. and then you see some steps forward. But just how stagnant they've been and how they haven't shown any real improvement on that side of the ball, that would absolutely worry me if I were a alliance fan kind of trying to find little kernels of optimism from another disappointing season with this regime. Yep, I agree.

I think it's fairly clear. And if you get enough wins down the stretch, just pulling them out and show some progress on that side of the ball, it's a lot easier in the offseason when you come to time to make that decision. but it's been at times really disheartening. And I think yesterday could have certainly been one of those again, where we're talking about the defense even more and what it means for the team this season. But like you said, they were able to get the win and they needed that. On offense, there's just far less mystery to me.

The offensive line is going to come back mostly intact. You're going to have likely a top 10 pick, maybe a top five pick. Another pick that seems like it's going to be in the top half of the first round with the Rams, you're going to have the ammunition to get in range for a quarterback most likely, even if you don't start there. And if you drop a rookie quarterback contract onto this team, you drop James and Williams onto this team with the offensive line they already have with Amman Ross Saint-Brown, that picture is far clearer to me than what needs to happen on defense. So I don't think we have to spend much time and energy trying to figure out which direction

they're going to go on that side of the ball. And in the big scheme of things, that's good. There is something coming out of the season. We've liked Ben Johnson, all of that. So I think that's enough for me as long as we're not just so completely bad on defense that we're losing all the games. And then it's hard to justify anything if you just can't get a win. What you said at the beginning is kind of interrogating the plan and the bones of the staff, who you want to be, all of that stuff. I think those are the questions that you need to start asking as you move into year three when the results really have to start showing up. All right. let's talk about the Bears here.

I just rewatch this game. And you watched like the 67-yard touchdown. And he's just so exciting. Like every play you just feel like something can happen. And it's a very weird experience for me when you think about the last 35 years of my life and what watching Chicago Bears' offenses and quarterbacks have been like. I was on local radio last week. And I was talking to Tom Waddle and who was at ESPN.

1,000, we were just chatting about the experience of watching this team. And one team I can remember kind of in a recent memory where you were tuning in to watch the offense. Like this is why I'm watching the game was the 2013 Bears. And specifically when Josh McCown was point. I was going to say, that was the Josh McCown, Mark Trussman year. They had Alshan Jeffrey, Brandon Marshall, Forte was still there. It's like, man, this is doing some stuff here with this offense.

That's the only time. I'm a 35-year-old man. That's a low ceiling. And that is the only time when I, yes, that is how bad it is that I'm holding up that team. I was trying to think, okay, what team would this be? Because that wouldn't even rise to my level of a team that, you know, yeah, I mean, it was relatively okay. But I was like, okay, I was even going back to the 80s. I was like, not really.

I mean, you tuned in to watch the 85 Bears defense or watched DITCA. I mean, Jim McMahon was kind of interesting. That's getting back. You're 35. That's before you even remember. You weren't even born. Were you born for the 85 bears? I was not.

It was two years after I was born or two years before I was born. Yeah. So it's a very strange experience watching this. And the Justin Fields conversation has gotten a little bit weird. You know, I think that some people, it's one of those things where it has to be all or nothing. He has to be great or he has to be terrible. And that's how everyone has to be at this point. So I wanted to ask you this question because I need, I need to someone that can provide some perspective for me and allow me to have like to see the forest for the trees.

Yep. What is Justin Fields exactly? And doesn't really matter what he is right now. Well, it definitely matters what he is right now to an extent. But I think what we don't want to be asking is, what is he as if this is what he'll always be? That's the important thing. I think that those are two, this is a huge distinction to make. And it's hard to make that distinction when as a fan of the team, you do care about the results of the game, right?

I mean, I'm watching the games from afar. And yes, the winning and losing matters. but we're in year one of Matt Earflus. They've unloaded their redoing the defense. And I just want to see the excitement and the progress of, hey, we have a plan for Justin Field. So I think he is completely exciting, completely dynamic. I think all of that stuff's real.

Now, when they have to pass the ball, it's very difficult. And that doesn't mean that he's a failure and not going to be a good quarterback or any of those things. But yesterday in the game, with two, 17 left when they get the ball down one, I felt like they hurry and get their last zone read to play in above the two-minute warning because it's so nice when we can do that. But then when we have to go to pass the ball now, we have, we're like, oh my gosh, we're incomplete.

We're incomplete with defensive holding, incomplete, sacked, checked down on third and 15, sack and fourth and eight. And that's where you're like, what happened? Or we're not clutch? we don't know how to win these games. No, no, no. That's just when it shifts into more of a pure passing situation, more of a two-minute drill thing, which it's not that he can't do that because we've seen, I'm sure, and we're going to see times when he scrambles around and makes a big play or he makes the great throw. But the game becomes a lot different. You become a lot

different to defend in those situations. And that's not what they're set up to do. So what I want to see from him and them is, okay, we figured out how to, unlock his amazing abilities. Now let's have a Philadelphia Eagles, Jalen Hurtstall plan to let him grow as a dropback pastor and grow in the handling of things in a two-minute situation and all of those things that differentiate a good prospect from a polished pro quarterback. And he's in between those things right now. And it can be a shocking, stark difference.

But it's okay. I think that's where I've landed is that it's okay. It's okay to not have all the answers right now. He's very fun. He's very exciting. A lot of the stuff they did through the air yesterday was out of structure. They had the one big league play to commit. But other than that, was a lot of plays off schedule, him making second reaction throws.

That's awesome. That's going to be an element of who he is and that's ultimately going to be important. All the design runs, what he's doing on that. That is going to be an element of who he is and that's going to be important. What he looks like as a finished product as a pocket past. we don't have to really worry about that right now. As long as the lion is pointed in the right direction, that's what matters the most.

We talked before we started recording. He was actively getting ruined for the first half of the season and for all of his rookie year. If we're going to change the direction of that and he's no longer actively hurting his development, we'll worry about his ceiling and how far he can go and what the nuts and bolts of the drop-back passing game for the Chicago Bears looks like.

we'll worry about that next year when we have an actual offseason to surround him and all of that stuff. Even I was looking at the numbers today and trying to figure out, all right, so how much of the efficiency and how much of the success is truly based on just scrambling and running around and how much of it is throwing. So if you look at passes or sacks in the last four weeks, so that's not designed runs and it's not scrambles. Yep. He's 20th in EPA per dropback. it's not great, but it is significantly better than it had been over the previous dozen games when he was the worst quarterback in the league or the second worst quarterback in the league in every single metric. So as long as you're insulating him and we get to really lean into the excitement and you see all these tools that he has and we're not actively hurting his development, we'll find the answers and come to the conclusions at a different time than this. and I'm totally fine living that way.

I'm completely with you on that. I think that's, we've gotten to a point where, I mean, shoot, you can't not watch him, right? I mean, he's excellent. And if they were in year three right now, then you can talk about, yeah, but are they going to get, are they going to win enough games? Are they going to, can they win in the playoffs? Can you win? But look at Philadelphia last year when they had to go to Tampa Bay, right?

Oh, we're excited, we're here. And then you get into a game where you can't play the way you want to play. they look horrific and you're like questioning your soul of whatever we have the right guy. No, no, they continued the course. They stayed and they've continued to build around Jaylen Hertz and he's improved in those areas and he may, you know, reach a wall at some point in the playoffs this year, but unquestionably has made progress. So I'm encouraged by the fact that they realized, at least before we were, well, it was

still in the first half of the season, how to change it for him. And then we've seen some positive signs like some, the nifty ball handling. he had in the game last week where he concealed the ball, it turned us back to the defense, came back around, made I think, an accurate throw. I think it was for a touchdown. So there's some little things here and there. But this stuff's hard, man. It is hard. And when you watch these games for so many of the quarterbacks when it turns into that situation, it just looks different. It's hard. And you can just go down swinging really quickly. even when I was watching guys that have been in the league for a decade or in Tom Brady's case, two decades,

the difference in having protection and not having protection is so incredibly important in these moments where you're trying to go from one to two to three. And he's not going to do it as fast as Tom Brady or Kirk Cousins or some of these guys. But you could see the difference for those two yesterday. And there were a couple moments in that game. There was a third down, two third downs on the first drive of the second half, where he had time and space in the pocket and he goes one, two, three, completion. It's like, okay, that's great.

And with better pass protection, hopefully next year, we can see more of that. But I'm not going to get too worried or too far down the road of how often that's happening or where the progress lies with that. I just kind of want to sit in this excitement for a little while. I say, so they're 22nd in EPA per pass play when there's no pressure and their fourth when pressured. Because that counts the scrambles and all of that because when he gets pressured, like actually some good things happen because he is really special.

So the teams that are at the top, there's Buffalo, the Giants, the Chiefs, and the Bears. So those are all teams with quarterbacks that can run and make something happen. So you mentioned the Eagles. My next question for you is kind of about the results. Because when I'm watching that game and they stumble into another loss and he's playing great and we're really excited about how the quarterback is doing, but they end up losing these games and I'm sitting there looking at Tankathon and they're picking sixth in the draft. In my mind, that's a decent outcome.

That is a nice confluence of circumstances. But is that too simplistic? Should I be worried about what the final results are, the defense struggling with the defensive-minded head coach, or are we kind of playing with House Money if the quarterback looks good and they're picking in the top six? I think we're playing the house money because if you are, if the quarterback is playing well enough like this and you're getting enough production, I think enough wins will come. I think the wins become a burden the longer you've been on the job as a head coach. The types of losses, I mean the losses become a burden, you know, the longer you've been a head coach. And then the types of losses, I think matter. I think this one where you're excited and we're just there in the end is still feels positive to me for the bears because of where they're at. So I think that, I think that, I Enough wins will come. You'll win a couple of these games.

You're not going to just have an absolutely horrific record. It's not going to be so bad that people are like, go, he struggles when it's pressure situations. At least they shouldn't be saying that. So I'd take this all day. One of the things I asked you when we were preparing this was like, who would you rather be, right? The bears or the giants.

And we will talk about the giants, but I think it's a fascinating question because the giants are in a little bit of the same boat. I think they're not as exciting to watch and they are winning. So how would you answer that question? I think I might say the Giants because I feel like the steady hand of the leadership of Brian Dayball and the offensive design through him as the head coach and just their overall long-term plan, I feel a little bit better about without really having any bad evidence on Chicago.

I just feel like I might sign up for that. Now, I don't know if they may not have their quarterback. They don't have Justin Field. So that's a component of it too. But I kind of like their operation enough to say at this stage, I might go there. But it's a difficult decision because I don't dislike what Chicago has going. And I really do like what. what Fields is showing and his ability to just create.

I think my answer is also the Giants for a similar reason. I just am bullish and optimistic about what they've done with the offensive structure based on the personnel that they have. And I think we have recent evidence that if you can do that, if you can look at your team and be like, this is the best way for me to win. You can do that again when you have better players. And that's what the Eagles have done. When you look at what the Eagles offense was last year and their ability to say, all right, we're going to do this one very specific thing because it's what our players do well. And it's our best path to winning right now. Well, they went out and traded for AJ Brown last year.

And their quarterback had one more offseason, one more year in the system, one more year to grow. And now their offense looks significantly different. And now they look like very real Super Bowl contenders. I don't think the Giants are going to go from having this sort of roster to the best roster in the league the way that the Eagles did. but I do think that as they build up more talent, we're really going to see what they can do. The question becomes about the quarterback and where you get the quarterback.

And if you were going to pick the bears in this argument, I think that's where it would have to lie, is that some of these teams that are, we're excited about what they're building, we're optimistic about their future. You still have to find that guy somehow, and that can become difficult. The fact that the bears already have him in the building,

I think that is the one side of this. I'm like, all right, Maybe I'd lean that direction. But I just think overall the leadership and what we've seen from the Giants so far, I'm comfortable and confident that when circumstances change there, that same sort of approach is still going to be successful. I agree. I feel like they instantly figured out what they needed to be. And we see some of these other teams like we've credited Chicago for changing their offense or I credited Pete Carroll during the season for making some tweaks on defense, Sean Desai and those guys, Clint Hurt. But I love that they ball had it from week one.

were so limited that they had to do it that way. Maybe there was no two ways about it. They looked at the, you know, what they could do in the passing game. We were like, uh, Sequin Barclay, please, 35 times. So maybe that was an easier decision for them to make, but I give them credit for that because right out of the gates, they, they had it. They had it figured out. That inspires confidence that we kind of already had in dayball coming over, but we, you know, I think now we feel sure about it. So let's talk about that game. All right, the Giants beat the Texans 24 to 16. They go to 7 and 2 on the season, which is still crazy to think about or even say. Sequin gets the ball 35 times. And there's been some rumblings this week that

they were talking to Sequin about a potential extension. And that brings me to what I think is most interesting about this Giants team. Because them beating the Texans, I get, there's not much to say about this. The Texans are terrible. Going back and watching that game, there were a couple of plays in the passing game where Darius Slateens opened by 10. 10 yards. Like 10 full yards. And you see that in NFL games, but it's because it's the Colcomette touchdown from the Lions game. It's a league play where he's sneaking out the backside of something. He's opened by 20 yards. Cadarius Tony going in jet motion yesterday and every other bit of the play going the opposite direction. The Giants just ran like a simple go and over against single

high coverage and the post safety was running away from Darius Slate and running the over. And it's like, there's no one within 10 yards of this guy. And this is not a tricky play. It's like a user control. Somebody was taking them off the field. Yes. Somebody fell asleep with a controller in their hand. It was just wild to watch. So the actual nuts and bolts of what happened on the field yesterday, I don't think are

particularly important or interesting. But the Sequin question, what they do with Sequin, I think can lead us to a conversation about what the Giants should do overall. Like, what is the next set of moves that Joe Shane and Brian Daibble can and should make based on how the first half of this season has gone. Because they've got some real decisions to make now. They have quite the decisions to make. I mean, they have a decision to make.

I mean, Sequin Barclay is probably just a decision of what type of deal to do with them. I think you would want to do probably a deal with him. But you don't want to do a bad running back deal, right? And get upside down and way too long and huge cap numbers. I wouldn't want to do that. But if you're him, you may want that. I mean, you may say, look, you're giving it to me 35. I'm your whole, 35 times I'm your whole often.

So I think that's a relatively straightforward decision. You're not going to let him leave necessarily. You could probably, I mean, heck, you could tag him if you really wanted to, to have him for a year. You could do something like that to keep him. So I would, I think that's a little bit easier. Just don't do a really bad deal. I don't think they're going to do a really bad deal.

I think that would be the sticking point with him. I think the quarterback decision is similar. You're not going to do anything dumb with Daniel Jones, but is there a circumstance where you would do it again and say, if we get him some weapons, we can take a step the next year, or are you in the quarterback market right away? Look at who the free agents are available, and we're going to do this when we talk about the Saints.

But are you plugging in Jimmy Garoppolo, right? What is your move for them? Because I think they could quickly become 20% better on offense. just by a couple pieces. The Sakelon conversation, I think there's something I would do in a vacuum and there's something I would do if I was considering all the factors. In a vacuum, I'd franchise them. The running back franchise tag is more than palatable.

It's a small number. You bring them back for one more year. It bides you some time. Whether ownership wants to do that and whether you're worried about what sort of message that sends or how it affects the locker room, those are considerations that I don't really understand not being there. but in a vacuum, I franchise him and just don't think twice about it. The quarterback, they're not going to franchise him.

I would bet pretty good money that they're not going to franchise him at $30 million. And he's not a $31 million quarterback. No. So I don't know if moving out from him is worth it if it's for a Jimmy Garoppola type. That doesn't seem worth it. You have to be able to answer the question, why are we so freaking limited in the passing game? Like there's not a lot of stuff. They don't even try and they're not going down the field.

And that could just be a weapon sling for them. They know how they have to win the game. But some of that has to be him as well, right? So how much of that is? And so then you balance that with what are your options? And how else can you upgrade it? How quick are we trying to turn this thing? I think that is an interesting question.

And I'm not overly excited watching. Yeah. What do you mean by that? I don't think there's any need for you to get it. This is going to take multiple years. They are multiple years away from being a contending roster. Like, I truly believe that based on the upgrades they need in their weaponry, some of the things they should probably do in the secondary. So looking at the guys who might be available next off season and saying,

what would it take to go get Derek Carr? I don't think I would do that. I think I look at Daniel Jones and Tyra Taylor and say, all right, if a market does not develop for Daniel Jones as a starter somewhere else, can you go to his agents and say, do you want the James Winston contract? Which is like $14 million a year over two years. And I would do something like that as a short-term solution as you figure out how you're going to ultimately get your quarterback of the future.

If a market does arise for him where somebody's going to pay him as a starter and you don't feel comfortable doing that, Tyrod is on the team. team. He's making $6 million next year. They got ahead of that knowing that they might need a bridge quarterback. And he's already there. So if you don't think there's anybody that is going to make you demonstrably better or somebody you can add at the right price on your timeline, I would be comfortable rolling into next season with Tyrod Taylor, again, in a vacuum. If you're worried about what sort of message it sends if you let the guy walk and you're actively getting worse, those are considerations I can't really understand. But on a football,

level, I think I'd be fine just rolling with Tyrod and saying, what can we do with quarterback in 2024 if we don't want to overextend ourselves to find one next offseason. Yeah, are you going to be like, hey, you know what, next year we're actually not going to have a good record because we're going to get a higher pick. Wasn't this supposed to be the year you'd come back with a. But that's what the bills did. They went and got Josh Allen in year too, but they got worse the second year under Brian. But they made a move for it. Yeah. And you can't, you can't wait forever in these things and think we're going to get a guy. You've got to move actively to get a quarterback when and however you can because you don't want to be in year four and saying, well, you know, we tie rod and tailored

for a year, we Daniel Jones for a year. You can then just not have somebody. I think you'll always got to be trying and you've got to be trying to upgrade it. And I agree with you that if you can get Daniel Jones as a decent price, they certainly, they tried to get Mr. Trubisky as a backup this year too. but didn't work out. So here they are. But I think the waiting too long thing has risks too, because these years can just stack up and then, you know, who do you got? I think it has to be the right guy.

I think it has to be the right opportunity, right? Okay, here's a hypothetical for you. Let's say things go badly in Green Bay over the next six, eight games. They want to trade Rogers. It's time. They don't want to give them the option bonus. It's like, all right, we're going to turn the page to Jordan Love. If you're the Giants, do you give two first round picks for 40-year-old Aaron Rogers based on the makeup of the rest of your roster right now?

I don't think Aaron Rogers is going there with that weaponry, unless they get some more. Unless they get some more. But if you had upgraded the rest of it, if he's playing like this. But you have trouble upgrading the rest of it. That's the problem, is that if you spend picks to go get a quarterback, and you'd have to spend picks to get a real difference-making quarterback. No quarterback that's going to really make you a contender is going to be available in free agency. So if you're going to get a guy that prized loose and becomes available,

you're probably going to have to give up a lot of picks to do it. So you're not going to be able to upgrade the rest of your roster. It's kind of what I mean with the timeline thing. Well, are you going to give up those multiple picks to get up high enough to draft somebody to? Or how does that work, right? No matter almost who you get unless you're drafting number one when someone's available. That's kind of why I would just kick the can. And it's just, it's like the year, the Josh Allen thing, replicating that by trading a tackle and using that to move up nine spots in the draft and then packaging more picks to move up again.

And it's a quarterback class with five guys who go in the first round and somehow you get the fourth guy. But the fourth guy ends up becoming the best guy. I just think that all of those circumstances are so difficult to replicate. They are difficult to replicate. I guess he was the third guy, right? He was the third quarterback. Yeah. But in every.

case, you have to have a conviction on who that player is. And you're not going to be right all the time on that, but you have to have that conviction. And the bills had that conviction on Josh Allen. So you go do it. You know, the conviction that Kansas City had on Mahomes, they go do it. Now, of course, there's a chance that the guy might be a dud. He may be terrible. He may get his signing bonus and go blow it and not be reliable. And all of those types of things could happen, but you still have to make the decision. And I think that's what they're going to do. I mean, it's interesting that you bring up, you know, you bring up the Josh Allen thing because what does Joe Shane know, right? I mean, that's where he's been.

So I would imagine we're going to see some sort of a strategic move and strike. And I felt like last year in the draft, it just didn't work out for them. They had five and seven. None of the top 10 picks moved on draft day. They couldn't get a one this coming year out of it. It was sort of like a darn, you know, here we are. It didn't come to us. And so I think you have to be careful of having too many.

many years of it didn't come to us. I think at a certain point, you've got to go get it. And hopefully your conviction aligns with that so you can do it and feel like, okay, now we can build around this. If there's a guy that you feel like you can get the right price this year and it unfolds in a way we're like, all right, we can do this without extending ourselves, then you do it, the same way the bills did with Josh Allen. But the 2024 draft class for quarterbacks is apparently pretty good. The guy from USC, Caleb Williams, Drake May from North Carolina, Dane loves him, Quinn Ewers from Texas. Like, they're going to be some options. So if you don't feel like everything is unfolding in a way where you can, on the right timeline and for the right price, get your quarterback of the future, I don't think you should be leveraging your future to get one right now.

I don't think you should be doing that. That's not, I wouldn't have that sort of urgency in the process, I guess is what I would say. It's just going to be so fascinating. Like the fascinating part of this, the unexpected part of it is their good record. And what you sort of have to say publicly and how you sell the team and how you talk to your team, when you are a let's just say they're going to win 10 games this year right I mean at least they're going to win 10 games so going in the next season as a 10 win team do you say

we're going with Tyrod because you and I know what we're really doing in the long-term plan but that looks like we're not building on this initial first season we're not good and should you be making decisions for PR or aesthetic or whatever reasons. I don't think so. I know that's difficult. You have to know what you really are. But I think that's dangerous.

You have to know what you really are. And I think they do, by the way. I think they have a very good sense of who they really are. They completely do. I love watching Brian Dayball's post game news conferences as questions are asked when he kind of doesn't say, you know, he doesn't, he's coy. And they obviously, they know exactly what they are. And I think they're probably a little bit surprised that they've been able to win.

this much with what they had. I think they thought they'd be competitive, but a lot of these games have fallen into their category. They out brabled, Vrable in week one. They beat the Titans. You know, that's the classic type of game you lose when you're a team like the Giants. So they're stacking them. And then in the outseason, we'll see what they say.

And then more importantly, what do they do? How do they behave? And I think they know for sure they need a big upgrade and want to go big at the quarterback position that Daniel Jones has done a nice job. And maybe there's another year. year with him, but that's not the destination. So you ask me, would you rather be the Giants of the Bears? I'm going to ask you this.

Would you rather be the 2022 Giants in their stage of the rebuild or a team like the 2021 Jets where the vibes are good, you feel good about the coach, you feel good about his ability, keep the train on the tracks, but you lose a ton of games, you're picking in the top five and you can go get a guy like Sauce Gardner, or would you rather be a team like the Giants where you're winning a bunch of games, but you're going to be picking in the middle of the first round without a path to go get your quarterback. Well, it's easy to say now that the Jets have survived that, hey, that looks pretty good and get the picks. But I think when you don't know how that's going to go, I think it's really

hard to have a wayward losing program with a defensive coach that's last in defense. It's kind of like where the lions are a little bit, right? with their defensive side, and at least they've seen some progress. It's where the lines were last year, in my opinion. The lines were last year on that. And so I don't like that. I like feeling like, I like seeing evidence that we have somebody who can make a difference in the games to win them from the coaching position. And I feel confident more fully in just our overall competence in running things.

And that's not a shot at the Jets. That's just that I didn't feel that last year. And I still don't know where they're at from an offensive standpoint long term. they were able to draft Jack Wilson. Maybe he's going to be fine. Maybe he's not. But I think the way the Giants have done it this year was enough for us to kind of side with him over Chicago. And I think it's enough for me to side with him over last year's version of the Jets where I really wasn't so sure.

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure now. It's going to be great for them. Everyone in the NFL world will tell you that they want. want to win the games. They almost have to tell you that. But I've asked this question to teams and people in this exact situation. I think the Giants would tell you that we would rather be in this situation. It would rather be in this spot where we win a bunch of games. We know we have the guy. Everyone in the building feels good. And I get that. I think the Falcons would rather be doing what they're doing right now and being competitive rather than picking first overall and being in a

spot to pick a quarterback. Another interesting one, talking to the people with the Rams, right, McVeigh's first year there and them winning as many games as they did. I think that first season was really important in kind of convincing ownership, proof of concept. Like the things we want to do, who we are, you should listen to us. You should give us this money to upgrade our sports science side of things. We should be able to try this stuff in these different areas. And I think there are quieter aspects of it like that that I don't always think about enough and the general public doesn't always think about enough.

The question is whether those are so important, and the locker room. So I agree with you that I think winning the games is definitely more important and definitely better. But I just think it's an interesting conversation because the Jets, it worked out so well for them based on where they were picking and all of that. But I do think over time and with some of these other examples, winning those games and establishing all of that and kind of getting freedom and flexibility and all that stuff with ownership, I do think that stuff matters. I do too. I think it's a good sign of, hey, we've got. something going here and you can worry about the draft order and where you're at after that. But in the meantime, you're building that credibility.

Look at a first year program like Josh McDaniels with the Raiders. You know, comes in and it's bringing a different style and there's some of the New England flavor. If they get up to a seven and two start, that thing's established now. And we're doing it in my way. And this works. You're two and seven. There's got to be people looking around going, I don't know. And so I do think that you can't take for granted what the value of.

if that is. And maybe in the Jets case, you know, Sal is just so solid anyway that he, that everyone was believing in him anyway. That could have been. I think that's just harder to be the case if you don't get some results. All right. Let's move on our next one here. Steelers and Saints. Steelers be the Saints 20 to 10. Just a disaster season for New Orleans. We think about what they did this offseason, how they pushed all their chips in this spring, the trades that they made. But we've talked about that a lot already. The offseason bets that they made those bets failing and maybe the misguided mindset that they took into this offseason. So rather than rehash any of that, I wanted to ask you about the Saints, what comes next?

Now that those bets did fail and we're staring at a scenario where we're handing a top five pick to the Eagles and we don't have much cap space, what should the next off season for New Orleans look like considering everything that's happened over the last six months? Well, I think it starts with for sure, it seems like Sean Payton wants to coach because he's in a media column like once a week, right? There's always Sean Payton saying this. I mean, he's just itching to get back in there. And so I think it starts there because they have a two, three, four, your own five, Philly's five and a seven in the draft next year. They need a one.

So whatever you can do, if you jackpot out and get more than a one, that would be amazing. But if you could add a one or get something in your, you know, to add your draft. capital. Then I think it makes you a little bit whole again. And this shot this year that you took that maybe isn't working out as well as you hoped doesn't have as, you have some insurance on that. So I think once that takes shape and we see what they get from it, you may feel okay with it. Because if you do get a one from somebody for him, it's probably not a team that's picking 32nd, right? it's going to be some team that has an earlier pick. And we'll see how that goes because that, I don't know, how high of a pick do you give up for Sean Payton if you're a team?

Maybe you don't give up that high of a prime pick. But that seems to be what they're banking on. And I think that has to be where you start so that they can have the capital like everyone else and kind of make it up. I'm putting you on the spot here, but I'm just looking at a list of teams. Who do you think makes the most sense for Sean Payton? Well, I think it's a place where he can go in and have total control and a place that needs credibility. So to me, if you look at a place like Carolina, I think they would be a good landing spot for him to come in. I think a place like we're not going to see that in Jacksonville now because I think Doug Peterson is going to be it a little bit, but that type of a place.

I think he goes in and just gives you instant credibility. We've talked about, you know, obviously the Chargers with a Justin Herbert type pairing, but I've also pointed out that that hasn't been the type of coach they've gone after for reasons that I think have to do with what the ownership is comfortable with and the relationship they want with the coach and the dynamics they want with the coach and who is dictating to who a little bit. If you remember, they fired Marty Schottenheimer after a 14 and 2 season and Marty Schottenheimer is a very strong, you know, Sean Peyton type coach who had his program and we're doing it my way. and who are you? What are you telling me again? That sort of a thing. And to the front office.

So that's why I, as good as a fit, I think that is, I'm not fully sure that that would happen. There was some speculation before, you know, when Seattle was going into this season with Gino Smith and Drew Locke that I heard some people kind of talking about, would Seattle be the type of place he would go, they've paid, they've gone for big names like Pete Carroll and Mike Holmgren, but I think now we can see that that's a stabilized situation, right? And that one's not going to come open. So those are a few that come to mind for me. Is there any other one that you see that you like? It's hard not to look at the Raiders situation

based on their history and some of the other big moves that they've made. It might be a good excuse for moving on from Josh McDaniels after a year if you can justify it by saying we're going to go get a guy like Sean Peyton. That's one of the only other ones that feels precarious. like Arizona would he want to go there if they decide to move on from Cliff after the year? Are they going to move on from Cliff after the year after giving him that huge contact extension? So the ones you list to make the most sense. I just think if I were Carolina, I would do whatever it took to try to make it happen. The problem for Carolina is if they're picking in the top five, you need a quarterback.

You don't have a quarterback. This is your avenue to find a quarterback with the lack of resources and cap space and everything else that you have. five pick. I'm just not giving a top five pick for a coach. I think that if they can get a quarter if the Panthers can pick a quarterback and let's say you know I give away this 37th pick plus a 2,024 first round

pick to go get Sean Payton. Then I think it becomes a real conversation for them whether they should do it. Yes, because there are other coaches you can get. It's not like he's the only one that you can win with. It's not as scarce to me as what a, you know, what a

quarterback is. So I I'm with you on that one. With New Orleans, the picks are obviously a big part of it. But the money is also something to think about. I mean, this team right now, if you're looking at it over the cap, is $56 million over the salary cap. And we say this every single fucking year. But there are things to look at here.

So they can get under it. But that's going to probably include Jason Fitzgerald over the cap did a great job of breaking some of this stuff down. That's probably going to include some sort of resolution with Michael Thomas, where they could designate him as a post-June first cut. They save about $12 million against the cap, I want to say, by doing that. They can also do that with Andrews Pete, potentially, and somehow they can finagle their way like under the cap.

But there are only so many more things that they can do. The number that I thought was absolutely crazy, they had $122 million this year in restructure bonuses as part of their cap. That was almost twice as much as the next best, or, highest team in the NFL. So they've really kind of done what they can do with a lot of the stuff as far as I understand it. So they can get under it.

But then you're looking at a team without a lot of wiggle room to go make moves. And does that mean that James Winston is their quarterback again? So that's my question is like if you're going to make all these moves and not have a lot of financial flexibility, what are you going to be able to do at quarterback and who's going to play quarterback for them? Because the way that I'm seeing it is that. that the core that's there right now with a couple of those high-priced guys that they need to move on from in order to free up space and just operate, it's mostly going to be the same. You know,

you're going to have Chris Olive, a lot of the same offensive linemen. Marshaun Lattimore is likely back, even though reading with Jason Fitzgerald was writing, he's a potential trade candidate if they want to free up some space. You know, it's probably one more year with Cam Jordan. DeMario Davis will be back. They just sign these guys in the secondary. So this team has the potential to come back mostly intact, but who's going to play quarterback if you don't have a lot of money to spend and you don't have a lot of picks to throw around? That becomes my question. 16 of their top 17 cap numbers this year are under contract next year, too.

They can't just cut anybody. The most money they can free up with a simple release, I'm pretty sure, is like $4.4 million. That's it. And I think it's James. and his dead money hit would still be like 10 million bucks. They should be a destination for a young quarterback. How do you keep coming back with the Andy Dalton and the James Winston's of the world? How do you get a young quarterback if you don't have any picks?

Well, you hopefully are getting something from Sean Payton back. You've got to be getting that. Are you trading future ones? They do. So here's what they've got. So in 2024, they don't have their two. They traded that away. Yeah, they gave that to the Eagles.

But they have a one, three, four, five. right in 6-6-7. 2025, they have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. That's pretty good. So, you know, they are the team that borrows from the future continually, right? And what more can you borrow from? So, yes, maybe that's what you're doing is you're giving up future picks to move up from a team that already has a guy or doesn't want somebody in the draft as much as you do. And get yourself in position to go cheaper there.

I don't think you can justify paying big money for less than premium return at that position, which is what they've been doing when you combine, you know, all of their quarterbacks. So you don't think this is potentially a Garoppolo landing spot or somebody of that? I don't think it should be. I mean, it certainly could be. That's what they do. You know, they're going to try to be as good as they can be in the next 10 minutes, right? and not as much looking about what it means for two years from now.

So if they can find a way to move things around, that would be a Saints move, wouldn't it? Now, how much better is he on that team than what you have? It's kind of my question. Would it just be worth rolling with James for one more year and then trying to figure things out in 2024? Because in 2024, things open up. They can move on from some of these contracts. they can kind of figure. Because if I were Mickey Loomis and I were that front office, I would not be pushing any more money into future years if I could avoid it.

I mean, with some of it, you can't avoid it. Like the post-June 1st stuff with Thomas and whatever they end up doing with Pete or however, they end up freeing up some of that money. You're going to have to do some of it. But I would try to limit it because your 2024 cap, as it currently stands, isn't that terrible. So by then, you might be moving on from a Cam Jordan. You might be moving on from a DiMario Davis. So is it worth going out and extending. yourself or over extending yourself for a short-term quarterback solution.

Like, let's say Derek Carr is available. And Derek Carr is a $33 million-based salary next year, but it's all based salary. You could just chop that up and throw three more years onto it and get that number down to $8 million or whatever would end up being. And you can live with it and have a quarterback solution for next year and just say, we'll figure the rest out later. I think they would. I think they potentially would too.

But is the smart move just to say, we already have James under contract anyway? It's going to be a $14 million cap if we keep them. It's going to be $10 million if we release them. Let's just roll through this one more year. And then in the spring of 2024, we'll figure out what the next stage of the franchise looks like. And we're talking about a quarterback who hasn't played for him. He lost his job, Andy Dalton. And hasn't been playing.

Now, they may turn to him here for the last six games and get a six game look at, you know, at some point here with a six game look at James Winston. Are you in on that? I mean, what are we doing? You're not going to win anything. I just don't know what the right answer is. And it's hard to put myself in their shoes because they just, they operate like no one else does. Yeah, but a car type move would be a car type move or something like that would be kind of what they do. They haven't.

When's the last time the Saints, they had Breeze for so long? When's the last time the Saints went and got a young quarterback? They haven't. And that's the part of the problem. Because Drew Brees was a five-year veteran. I mean, when they got him and he'd been playing six years, five, six years. He's been around. I mean, when did they draft Aaron Brooks?

Did they draft Aaron Brooks? Yeah, I think. No, no. Aaron Brooks was a Green Bay guy. He was a Green Bay guy. And so Aaron Brooks came over. They drafted J.T. O'Sullivan. I think Randy Mueller drafted J.T.

I don't remember the last time they drafted a quarterback high because it been, Breeze was there for 15 years. So, Robert, as I was doing this, I thought, you know, I'll just cap a reasonable amount of time. I'll go back to 98 because I don't want to get, I don't want to get two. far into the distant past here. I mean, you know, we'll get a list of 15 people or something. And there'll be some third rounders and second rounders. I went back to 1998. The highest guy was Garrett Grayson. So get this. The Saints in their history of drafting quarterbacks. Second overall, Archie Manning in 1971. 71. Okay. Garrett Grayson, 75th overall in 2015.

I mean, I forgot about him. I remember him, but I forgot about him. So before that, 99. They've picked three quarterbacks in the top 100 picks ever. 71 Archie Manning, 2015, Garrett Grayson, 1997 Danny Werfel. Okay. Then you go in the 100s from 100 to 100. There's a bunch of these guys, but it's Ronnie Lee South. You remember Ronnie Lee South? No, 1968.

Doug Nussmeier. I do remember Doug Nussmeier. Steve Ramsey. Yep, we got book in there. Mike Reiker in 1978. He doesn't even have a hyperlink on his. his name in profile reference. He says he went to Leighi, and I'm sorry, Mike.

I'm sure he's a listener to the podcast, but 1978, 6-Frienne, Adrian McPherson, 2005, Florida State, he is not linked. So that must mean he didn't even, did he not show up, didn't make it out of camp. Mike Buck, Mark Bulger, there's a good one. J-T-O-S-Lolvin, I like J-T, he does a lot of good work now. Jerry Godowski, G-D-O-W-S-KI. This is great. I want an oral history on the Saints.

quarterback drafting, all of these guys. Sean Canfield. You don't have to worry about it when you stumble into a Hall of Fame quarterback that's one of the most prolific pastors in NFL history and free agency, which has never happened in the history of the sport. There's a few more. Tommy Stevens, Todd Santos, Greg Kowel, no hyperlink for him, went to Kent State in 1976.

Bobby Scott, Rusty La Chousous, L-A-U-S-S-E-E, 1977ty-2-U-S-E-E-N-S-E-N-S-E-L-S-E. 173 to at the lane. Larry C. I was going to say he sounds like a local guy. How about Ed Hargett, not Ed, EDD, EDD. Edd-Hardgett, 1969. I mean, this is unbelievable. Is this like a glitch?

I'm going to email the guy at pro football reference and be like, how can this be? And how many in the last one, two? So since the CBA came in in 2011, that CBA, they drafted three quarterbacks. Garrett Grace and Tommy Stevens Ian book and I say Ian is it Ian book It's not Ian book it's not Ian book

Ian book so we got to change our behaviors here We get to change our behaviors And I get it when Drew Breeze is there Because he was great He didn't miss that many games You don't want a waste to pick Because you're trying to you're going to play with him But that's unbelievable

That is they're staring down A set of not super appealing options over the last year And we'll see what they do And we'll see what they get for Sean Payton because that could be a game changer. But it's going to be another interesting and gymnastics filled off season for New Orleans. I give Randy a lot of credit here. He drafted Mark Bulger and I believe JT. of Solven.

Those are two of the best ones on this list. I mean, those guys, I mean, Mark Bulger was a real NFL quarterback and JT hung around for a long time. So good for Randy. Very good. So anyway. All right,

let's talk about the Steelers a little bit because watching that game, obviously, another ugly one. My takeaway here and the thing I'm most interested in with the Steel is, is what is the plan for Kenny Pickett? What comes next for Kenny Pickett? Because the biggest lesson I think we've learned about young quarterbacks and quarterbacks that you've invested a lot in over the last year or so is that you need to bring a certain level of intentionality to what your plan is for that guy.

Think about what the dolphins have done with Tua. Think about what the Eagles have done with Jalen Hertz. Even the Bengals going out and getting Jamar Chase for Joe Burrow and just saying, we're going to do what we have to do to give this guy the right. pieces around him. And then you contrast that with a team like the Patriots who drafted Mack Jones in the middle of the first round and then kind of played a prank on us with how they handled their offensive coaching staff this offseason of what the plan for Mack Jones was. So if you're the Steelers and you are committed to making sure that Kenny Pickett succeeds in the way that

you should be with a first round quarterback, what does that plan look like for Kenny Pickett? Because that to me is what matters the most now. I think it's uncomfortable conversations. We'll see. what Mike Tomlin wants to do at the end of the season, but it's a different group there, right, with Omar Khan there, no longer Kevin Colbert as the GM. And I think they need to have a real conversation about exactly that because it is so evident to run a league. But they're not the type of team that has operated the way other teams operate, right? They have their own kind of, they're like a glacier. They move slowly. It's the same conversations as the Saints, though. They've operated this way. They had a Hall of Fame quarterback for 15 years.

Now you have to operate differently because you live in a different world now. And that's jarring for them because they're used to winning. And of course they know that he's a huge part of that. The quarterback's huge part of it. But they've been good on defense. And I think even this year people are like, hey, is Tomlin, you know, Tomlin can just wave the wand. He never has a losing season, right? And yet, you know, yet here you are.

So I do think they have to do that. I think they have to be proactive about it. I don't think it's natural for them. And it's not going to be urged on them probably by any one owner. It's not like they have that the way some other teams do as well, at least that strong in doing that. So are they going to be a stay-the-course team and sort of lose ground and be behind because of that? Because that's what I feel like they are now offensively. And shoot, it could get really real for them once Deshaun Watson's playing in the division,

too, right? You're going to have DeShon Watson, you have Lamar Jackson, you're going to have Joe Burrow. Hello? We better have some kind of plan for our guy. I don't think that this team is bereft of offensive talent in the way that some other teams that recently drafted a first round quarterback were. You look at what the bears were without Chase Claypool. By the way, we didn't even talk about this at all. Chase Cople playing like 20 snaps after a full week with the team after they spent a high second round pick on him was a little bit strange. day. I'll be honest, I'd like to see a little bit more run out of the guy you just spent the 37th overall pick on. That's just me. But it's, he's been there for a week and a half now. Like how much learning of the offense could there be? But you look at the guys the Seawish still

have. And one of the reasons they were comfortable trading Chase Claypool is that they have the Ante Johnson, who I think is a really good player. They have George Pickens, who people are excited about. Pat Friar-Rumuth is a decent young tight end. They're going to be picking in the top 10, most likely. I think they need a left tackle. They will likely be in range. to potentially draft a left tackle. So if they get a left tackle this offseason in the draft, and you have Pickens, and you have Deante Johnson, you have some combination of running backs with Najee and Jalen Warren,

the rest of the offensive line they've spent on. They went out and signed James Daniels. They went out and got Mason Cole, Corifor, they've given an extension to. I think that group with a new left tackle is probably fine. Who's running this whole thing, I think has to be the most important conversation? Because that's the thing that they're lacking the most. more talent than some of these other teams did when they drafted a quarterback. And when you look at their history, for the most part, they've plugged

quarterbacks into their strong team and their strong system. The quarterback has adjusted to them. Ben Rutherspur came in. They were a defense, run the ball team. They got to a Super Bowl almost in spite of having a young quarterback that they weren't relying on. You go back before that, they took Cordell Stewart in the second round in 1995, a good team, a Super Bowl caliber team.

Yes, they tailored. the offense to him, but he fit into a team that was good already. You go back, Mark Malone was in the first round, Terry Bradshaw was in the first round, a little bit more of a rebuild situation, but they're not used to coming in and having necessarily that type of, let's go past the wall plan for our new young quarterback. They've always fit him into the defense and run game culture for them. Is that the way they're going to do this. I hope not.

Because they don't really have that either. I mean, they have the defense. Defense and run game culture is precarious at this stage of the proceedings. Absolutely. In the NFL in general in 2022. Yes, because as we're seeing, you can really prop it up for these guys and make it be a lot better. Now, Kenny Pickett also isn't the type of quarterback. Some of these, well, yeah, he's not, he's obviously not going to be a just,

and fields type where you flip the scheme switch and it suddenly looks better, but he could certainly have a more coherent plan around him. I think one of the biggest questions anybody would say is what they're doing an offensive coordinator, and that was even coming into the year. Yes. And that's the biggest question. When you move on from that candidate after the season, which I assume they will, who are you bringing in? What is the pool of candidates? And is somebody going to be able to come into that meeting and say, this is the plan that I have for young quarterback, and I think this is the one that we should follow. Because I think that becomes the biggest question because they have decent pieces and they have assets to go get more.

They have some financial flexibility this off season. They're going to be picking high in the draft. So then who oversees this entire operation? That is the biggest issue and the biggest question in my mind. Yep. And if you notice, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about Miami and the moves they made, well, they have an offensive head coach. That's what he wants to do. How does Mike Tomlin want to win the games? right? What type of an offense does he want to have? How much does he want to throw the ball? Those are all questions that could ultimately limit what they get, what they go after. The last two office coordinators they have with Fickner and Canada, it kind of seemed like, you know, Mike Tomlin's in charge here, you're just the guy that just happens to be running the offense. Todd Haley was not that. Todd Haley was a four.

former head coach, Todd Haley has a personality. I think we all understand that. So I don't necessarily think they're afraid of going out and making a splashy move at that role based on what Mike Tomlin has done in the past. So is there a, and they're Brouserians before that. Brouserians and Ken Wisenon. I mean, they've had guys who were their own guys on offense. But I think the makeup of the organization has changed since them too. And it's always, you never really know how much an owner wanted to hire this guy.

or the head coach one and two, there's dynamics in the building on that sort of a thing. Does Tomlin at this stage of the game, you know, is he going to, is he having more say or less say than he had before? Does he want someone that he trusts already that he knows and is going to put in his plan and does that limit you in other ways?

Because you would say the last couple hires of that position, like you said, have, you know, they haven't exactly moved the needle, you know, in terms of what they're doing or made you feel excited about, yep, we're building it this way, we're getting these pieces that's going to be like that. And I don't know that you're going to see that there. I'd be frustrated.

Well, look at, you know, we, like we, I wrote about this in my pick six column today. Look at, look at what Belichick's doing. I mean, he's doing the opposite of that. But Belichick is doing the 2021 to a plan. Let's have multiple coordinators that are. kind of nondescript. Let's have him collaborate on a game plan. Let's not make it, let's not have as good of weapons as we probably should have. And Mack Jones is having 2021 to a season. He's having the two experiences of last year. He's the worst quarterback in the

NFL by you paper dropback after looking decent as a rookie. Yeah. And so what are we, What is Pittsburgh likely to do? Are they likely to be more like Belichick? Unfortunately, I think the answer to that question might be yes. And then what does that mean for the development and the curve for your young quarterback? Yep. And by the extension, your franchise. I'm really anxious for that in that conversation and the questions they're going to be asked at the combine and all of that.

Or in the offseason and the end of season post-game post-press conference and all of that. I think those were all great questions. to ask him of what he wants the vision to be. Because we haven't been able to see what that is in the last couple of years in a way that excites you or in a way that says, oh, yep, I see exactly what they're doing here. We don't see that. All right, very quickly before we get out of here, let's talk about Niners and the Chargers. Yeah. A game that on the surface, like I would be very excited about, like, I think that both these teams are really interesting.

I enjoy watching both of these teams, even if the charges are decently frustrating, a good portion of the time. Watching this game, I didn't feel like I came away from it with any big picture takeaways. The chargers are still super hurt. Both of their starting tackles were out. Their two top receivers were out. I thought Justin Herbert looked healthier than he has for stretches this year. He made three or four throws that are like, holy shit throws. He was running a little bit more than he has when his ribs were clearly bothering him.

and the Niners is not a super clean game for them, a little bit disjointed on offense. They had to get pretty lucky and some third longs. I thought that Jimmy had some decent moments on third down in this game, but not a lot of like sweeping conclusions that I'm drawn from this one.

I don't know how you feel about it. Yeah, I feel the same way, but I'm okay with that. I feel like, you know, so in the bigger picture, I have tired of the, oh, the Chargers injury excuse for the last whatever years.

I don't, I'm not buying into that. But for this game, I totally buy into it. I think it was a good performance by them under the circumstances. You're playing without your two tackles, your receivers, just on the game level. It was fine. They came out fast. Herbert hit some passes down the field. They missed an opportunity or two that they might hit some of the time.

The tight end dropped a pass. Herbert might have just missed, you know, another deep one. They don't hit those with any frequency. That's a normal occurrence for the Los Angeles offense. Unfortunately, you're right. But what were they ahead in the game? They were ahead in the game. Double digits was a 13 to 3 or whatever, whatever it was.

They got ahead. I was totally fine with that. And they just couldn't sustain it over the course of the game. But they didn't get rolled on defense. Like we all kind of, we all had this circled. Brandon Staley's defense. Oh, they're going to meet, get chewed up by Shanhan. They're going to the guys going, Debo.

Samuel's going. Christian McCaffrey's going, look out. Woodshed game. It wasn't that. I think that the Chargers did sort of hold on under difficult circumstances for this one game and I was okay with that. Now, would I like for us to be saying, wow, that was a tough game, a tough situation for the Charters to be in. And they did like what Mike Vrable did in his tough game, dialed up a flea flicker at just the right time, had the feel on it, and really

pulled one out of there, pulled one over on Denver, and really found a way to win a game that was kind of there that you were ahead in. I would love, that would be, that would make. That would make this an A performance for the Chargers. Like if they had done something like that, some differentiating thing in a game that was there that you were leading in to find a way to do it, I think that would be really, really encouraging. The way they played is just kind of really, really neutral to me. It was okay. Yeah, I'd like to go back and watch the all 22 of the defense, just see what sort of stuff

that they were throwing out there against what the Niners were trying to do. But without going back and actually seeing that angle of it, I don't have a ton of takeaways from this. Yeah, I think for the 49th standpoint, I mean, there was expectations probably for them to do more offensively, but I'm okay with it. They won a game. Jimmy Garapolo being eight of 10 for 108 yards with no sacks on third down was really good. And he had time to throw in those situations. They're down by 10 points, five minutes left second quarter at their own 22. He stands in the pocket all day, completes a pass past the sticks. Early fourth quarter, third and three, they're down by three.

He's throwing from the far hash to the wide side of the field outside the numbers, 12, 13 yards past Atlanta scrimmage. Hey, that's pretty good. We need that. So I thought that was really good for the four-de-laners to get the win, did enough, and move on in the next week. They all count the same. Didn't see anything too troubling from a major standpoint,

but just didn't see those differentiating, positives either. And sometimes when those are missing, you got to take note of that too. Yeah. Eli Mitchell got a lot more work than I think people probably expected it his first game back. I think Brandon Ayuk looks really good. This year, I know he had the fumble, which I don't think was his fault. He got a helmet directly on the ball and then he had to drop in the end zone. But I just, how they sort out who their best skill position players are, what those roles look like, how they're deploying all those guys. I think that becomes the biggest question. And if you're going to win games on the way to doing that. That's not a bad outcome here.

Oh, completely for them. And look around the rest of the division. Look at Arizona. Look at the Rams, you know, and they've already beat Seattle convincingly. So Seattle's got to prove they can move the ball offensively on the four-de-minage. So I like where the four-de-minage are at, didn't have any huge terrible injury, you know, or anything like that. So good for them. All right. That's all we got for today. As always, really appreciate you guys hanging out with us. We will be back a little bit later this week. My buddy David Helman from Fox is going to come on. We're going to talk about the teams we think can win the Super Bowl.

That's going to come out on Wednesday, so please come back and check that out. Nate will be back on Thursday for the week 11 preview. Very excited to get Nate back on the show. In the meantime, if you guys could subscribe to the YouTube channel, which should be in the description of this podcast. You can click on the link and do that. We're doing a lot of YouTube stuff this year. It's where you can watch our weekly recap show, our weekly preview show,

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