The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 11 Hangover: The Bears move into first, the Steelers stay on top, and the Falcons lose another season

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

The Bears and Steelers are in first place after Week 11? Sure, yup, just how we all drew it up back in August. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dig into the Bears' win over the Vikings and the Steelers' win over the Bengals on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also hit on the Texans, who won another game with Davis Mills at the helm, and take a couple of sad voicemails from fans of AFC West teams.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:20 Michael Penix likely out for season with knee injury12:19 The Bears—yes, the Bears—move into first place after win over Vikings38:59 The Steelers stay in first, and the Bengals are a total mess54:41 Monday Mourning: Kansas City Chiefs are in uncharted waters1:01:10 Monday Mourning: The Chargers and their desperate offensive line situationConnect with The Athletic Football ShowTake our listener survey: https://forms.gle/9CwBVwManjR9froy9X: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Week 11 Hangover is here. Me and Derek Classen broke down two games today that we did not hit on the week 11 recap, dug into Bears of Vikings and just, you know, the performances from both of those young quarterbacks and maybe some of the context that was hiding in the box score. It was a little bit surprising going back and rewatching that game.

That's what I'll say. Also chatted about the Steelers and the Bengals, just another really ugly performance from the Bengals defense. on way too many different levels. The Steelers win that one going away. Talked a little bit about what this means for the Bengals moving forward, how that gets handled.

Also chatted about the Michael Penick's injury, what that means for the Falcons now that he is out for the year and then hit a couple of your voicemails and another edition of Monday morning with the U. So let's get to that conversation with me and Derek right now. The Week 11 Hangover is here. We're hitting two games today.

seemingly every week we're planning and hit three and then there's some monumental news that we have to hit. It's that part of the calendar. Yeah, there's some stuff happening that is more important than us digging into Titans, Texans, unfortunately. Still going to talk about Bears Vikings.

A lot to dig into in that game. It was surprising in a way I didn't necessarily expect going back and watching it. Considering both quarterbacks went 16 of 32, I expected to be more disappointed in the game overall than I was. So we'll talk about that a little bit. Talk about Steelers, Bengals.

Another just kind of heinous performance. from Cincinnati Bengals' defense and then not much better from the offense in this game. Bengals fall to three and seven. Their season is over and there's a lot to talk about there as well. But we're going to start with the news of the day today. Michael Pennix likely to miss the rest of the season with a knee injury. Damage to his knee, same knee had a bone bruise in earlier this year. So there's some sort of issue with that bone bruise that's continued.

But it also sounds like according to multiple reports might be a partially torn ACL and that knee from Michael Penning. We obviously know he has a checkered injury history to be kind when it comes to those ACL tears. So this is pretty devastating news on multiple fronts for the Falcons, especially considering the way that Kirk Cousins has played when put in there and kind of mop up duty this season. Your first reaction to hearing the Michael Penix is going to be out for the rest of this season for this Atlanta team. I mean, it's obviously like the entire point of this season was to see what he is. And I think for most of the year, it was pretty rocking. I think the timing of this thing.

Do you have any more clarity now than he does? the beginning of the season. Absolutely not. Like, I really don't. I have basically zero more clarity. He played the exact way that he did for the last, however many games it was at the end of last year, which was not the worst quarterback in the league,

but it was consistently up and down. Like there's still some throws that are not in his bag. Some certain like modes of offense that I think they struggled to access, like during the middle of the field, play action, which actually is why I thought this game was like a really brutal one for him to end on. They actually like slightly upticked the play action in this game. He was starting to make a couple of those over. over the middle of the field,

and then he obviously goes out. And like, that's one game. Maybe that wasn't going to hold for the rest of the season. Who knows? But the fact that he, like, made some pretty decent plays in the last handful of games

leading up to this one, whereas I think the first, like, seven weeks of the season were pretty rocky. Last handful of games have been good. He was really hot to start this game. And then obviously goes out the entire offense craters around Kirk Cousins.

It was pretty tough timing for them. This entire off season, the last two off seasons for Atlanta have been curious to say the least when you think about some of the aggressive moves that they've made. We've talked ad nauseum about them spending the amount of money they did on Kirk Cousins and the eighth overall pick on Michael Pennix in the same offseason. When you look at what they're paying Cousins against the cap this year, it's $40 million.

He will make $35 million against the cap next year unless they make him a post-June first cut. But that money will be paid somewhere down the line. So either between 2025 and 26 or 25, 26, and 27, he'll make $75 million against the cap for not having been there starting. quarterback plus spending the eighth overall pick on a quarterback. That was okay if Michael Pennix was really good. That was kind of the refrain in the way that we talked about it. It was, okay, I understand this is a lot. This is not an optimized commitment of resources. But if he ends up being good, the rest of that doesn't matter. Well, we have no idea if he's good.

Right? And so there's no clarity on that whatsoever. He's not definitively good. And so on that front, I think you can absolutely take issue with how they've handled this. So you combine all of the resources that they've spent on quarterback, which disallows you from enjoying the rookie quarterback window in the way that many other teams would. And then you combine that with what they did in this year's draft. They give their first round pick from 2026 to the Rams. They move up from 46 to 26.

They get 101 back in that trade, which is worth mentioning, but doesn't really matter. If you look overall right now, the Falcons as it currently stands after losing yesterday and going to 3 and 7 would be giving the 8th overall pick to the Rams in this draft and that's with Michael Pennock's playing

we'll see what happens with a handful of games of Kirk Cousins here plus Drake London being hurt this could get worse before it gets better let's just say it is the 8th overall pick the 8th overall pick plus 46 even when you get back 101 if you tally up all the points of that pick

unlike the Spielberger Fitzger chart on like over the cap. The equivalent of points is giving away the number one or number two pick in the draft to the Rams next year. That is brutal. For a team that, I know this isn't about the Rams, but for a team that has like legitimate shot at the Super Bowl,

you've given them effectively like one of the best picks in the draft. I think why the whole quarterback thing with the Falcons was so frustrating is that they made two very risky bets. And I think the idea was like, well, even if they're both risky, surely one of them will work out. Like even if they were both low percentage,

Not the right way to look at this at all. Right, which volume shooting in that way is like kind of crazy. Because with Kirk Cousins, it was obviously like, okay, we've seen him play a lot of good ball before. He had been playing really well at the end in Minnesota, but he's coming off the Achilles injury. Older quarterback coming off of that. It was like they were making the bet that, okay, if he turns out to be healthy and plays well, and we don't even need Michael Pennix, then great. We've got a really good quarterback for the next three years.

And if that doesn't work out, now we've taken Michael Pennix where if Kirk Cousins doesn't work out, we can play this young quarterback and maybe things can work out. One, like you mentioned, you're not getting any. any of the young quarterback money benefits because you paid a ton of money to Kurt Cousins. But then also the idea of Michael Pennix was like, he was kind of a low probability first round quarterback. He was an older guy.

He had a crazy injury history. And they were just on film some different things about him. Like not the best athlete. He's a low probability quarterback. Yes. Like he just, it was not the type of bet you typically make inside of the top 10. He felt more like a bet that you make it pick 47 or whatever.

Like kind of where Tyler Shuck went, something like that. Yeah. I think when you look at the mindset that leads to both of the, those moves, there is just an overaggressiveness in each of them. Like, you're doubling down on each of those moves. And I just think that this wasn't necessarily a team that could afford to be doubling down considering the holes it had on a lot of other areas of this roster. And so they're in a spot now where, like, I don't know what you do, right?

And so this is year two of Rahim Morris. I don't think Rahe Morris has done a poor enough job for you to think about, or for him to be fired in a justified way after this season, no matter how. how it goes. It's two years. And they've been competitive, right? They haven't been a joke. Like two years of this does not enough to justify the firing of a head coach. He might not be like an amazing head coach, but to me the issue is more how they've built the team than what he's done. Sure. And so now you're in a spot where the problem has been the way that they've built the roster and how they've gone about this over the last several years. Well, Terry Fontno is not in

year one. Terry Fontno is in year, I want to say five. Which is crazy, by the way. They've never had a winning record. I think it's year five. It's hard to keep track of it. One, two, three, four, five. So this is his fifth year as the Falcons general manager. So do you fire the GM and then pair a new GM with this coaching staff?

Or do you just completely clean house? Or are you sitting there being like, what do we get if we fire the GM now? Like, it just feels like there's no right answer to how they should handle this off season. He should be fired. The thing is like they're probably

going to start Michael Pennex next year no matter what happens? When's he going to play? If he needs a full read and he can be able to I guess that's the other thing too. Now you lose potentially another year, a part of another year before you even get some clarity on whether or not he's a good quarterback. That is, yeah, that is another really

complicating factor. This to me, I know it feels risky given what they invested in Michael Penning's stuff. I think they're at the point where they should probably just clean slate, but it does feel weird to do that when you're only a year two of Rahimoris. You haven't actually seen very much of Michael Pennex. And it is kind of a timeline, but they, to me, like, I just, it does not feel like it's going to work.

And maybe that's just my, like, opinion of Michael Pennix already kind of coloring a lot of this, but I don't know. That's just kind of where I'm at. The lesson here is do not give away future first round picks for prospects. Or just don't do it. For old and injured quarterbacks or 245-pound edge players, probably don't do that. The entire justification of this that I've seen from people on the internet and Falcons fans was that, well, they didn't think Jalen Carter would, or Jalen Walker would be there at 15 or

whenever it was. And so they essentially used the pick they were going to use on James Pierce on Jalen Walker. And then they still wanted James Pierce and so they really just use their 2026 first round pick on James Pierce. That's kind of an okay thought process if that pick is going to be the 26 pick in the draft.

If that pick is going to be the equivalent of the number one pick in the draft, then you have made a massive mistake. Yes, you've hit a huge mistake. And that is exactly what's happened. It's ridiculous. I hated the logic from the jump. It was unjustifiable in the moment.

It was unjustifiable in the moment and has played out like four people that were detractors of it exactly how you would think. Like, Pierce has not really been a big factor for them. And Jalen Walker has to their credit. Like, I think he's a good player. And you easily just could have taken Jalen Walker and then drafted a different player in the second round.

Could have just had Jalen Walker and drafted like, I don't know, some other, you know, building a better offensive line or grab another defense. Whatever it could have been. You did not need to grab another receiver. They absolutely need them. Yes. Like I just, their whole process with that was just. bizarre. I don't get it. Yeah. I just this idea that well, they were going to take him in the first

round. And so like, Jalen Walker was like a free player. It's like that's not how any of this works. And so every single bit of rationalization for it in the moment I think was wrong when the defense was playing well in the first half of the season. I think that there was a little bit of like, oh, look, you know, this is actually working out better than you all thought it would. When they hand the Rams, the fifth pick in next year's draft, it is going to be a tough, tough moment for that fan base. All right, let's get to the games we want to hit today. Let's start with the Bears and the Vikings. Bears beat the Vikings 19 to 17 on a walk-off field goal. You guys, we talked about it a little bit on yesterday's show. We can dig into it a little bit

further. Have you ever seen me going through it as much as I was during the back half of that game yesterday? You called like the pacing of the fourth quarter and like J.J. McCarthy is somehow making a throw at the end like eight minutes of game time like in advance. You were like they are not going to win this game. And eventually they did obviously, but that you were the most going they would in that game. In part because the kickoff return set them up to win the game. Yes. Like this is another moment where they almost lost the game at the end.

And I said it. Even among all the games they played this year, that would have been one of the more excruciating losses, considering some of the situational things that happened, considering some of the struggles that the Vikings offense had in the first half. Because they in a lot of ways played well enough to win that game and then just did some stupid shit that kind of made them almost lose the game. Whereas like, we talked about earlier the Raiders game this year. They didn't deserve to win that game.

And so if they would have lost it, it would have been like, okay, that's frustrating, but whatever. They were the better team in this game and then just did a lot of stupid stuff shooting themselves in the foot towards the end of the second half that almost lost them. What were to you were the most egregious examples of that? Caleb played really, really well. We'll talk about that.

There were a couple of moments towards the end of the game where I thought that there was a chance like, what was it, three minutes, like three and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter. where it's a second and 19. He has Loveland racing across the formation like underneath. And he could hit him to get to like a pretty manageable third and eight, third and nine. He doesn't.

They end up messing that up. That's where they end up in the fourth and five at midfield where it's like, do we go for it? They end up doing the delay game punting. And so that leads to like one of the more questionable decisions for them, which like I do think it's unfortunate that that was Caleb's mistake. Because I thought otherwise he was actually pretty incredible in this game. The fourth and five, I think you go for it in that moment. And I think that he probably regrets not going for it. Because you get, I think they punted the ball

to the 15 yard line on that play. That was the thing. They didn't, it wasn't a very good pun. You get 25 yards against the Seahawks. And in that moment, I would rather just end the game. And I think some people's refrain there would be, well, the defense has been playing so well and the Vikings' offense has been struggling so much.

Why give them a short field? That's why you can give them a short field. That 15 yards, that 15 yards that you got is not worth, if you're thinking about like the calculus of it, that return is not worth losing the chance to put the game away on that play. The frustrating part about that third and 19 that leads to the fourth and five,

if Menongai just follows Joe Tooney on that play on the screen, he probably gets the first down. All right, let's start with digging into that framing of Caleb Williams' performance in this game. He finished 16 of 32 in this game. And I think there are going to be a lot of people who are going to look back at this conversation and say that this is just the HR meme.

We have two 16 of 32 quarterbacks and we're going to give Caleb Williams like the gentle hug here and we're going to talk a different way about JJ McCarthy. I think that's sort of true, but I think I was surprised when I opened this game. I expected to be much more frustrated with the 16 of 32 performance from the Chicago Bears quarterback than I was yesterday. Why in your mind, and we have not talked about this yet,

why in your mind do you think he played better than that stat line would lead you to believe? We've talked about a little bit. the growth that we've seen from him over really the last month, because in the Ravens game, he didn't throw the middle of the field that well. He threw that disgusting interception where he was a little bit late. Him throwing the middle of the field in this game was incredible. And to me, I think my favorite sequence was actually pretty early on.

They had DeAndre Swift, the Vikings had fired like a corner blitz and like DeAndre Swift got scared a little bit in the backfield. He ends up fumbling. They lose a ton of tony yards. Zanup in a second and 25. The best quarterbacks in the league can bail you out of second and 25. And Caleb makes a throw on that next play

where Rome is coming on like a dig from the left side and they have like a safety sitting on a hash the other way like ready to drive down and cut that route coming from across the field and Caleb knows that and so he throws it like on Roma Dunzey's back hip and like spins it 200 miles an hour on him. That's just like I don't know how many guys can make that throw man

and he made three or four of those in this game that were just like when he triggers and just snaps his hips and goes it's it's about as special as it That throw, I rewatched it a bunch of different times, and that was the prettiest throw of the day for him. That drive ends, and this is, that drive ends and it's a third and four on that drive. He has burden one on the left side and kind of takes like a comeback to burden on the left side. It's incomplete. I think that decision is totally justifiable in the moment, and it's not a bad throw.

And so that was one of the incompletions. And so I kind of want to bucket the 16 of 32 and just maybe talk about why it's a little bit, I don't know if misleading is the right word, but it's not necessarily a proper representation of the quality of his play in this game. So they have three disgusting drops in this game, like three really bad drops. Durham Smyth drops one on a second down

that ruins the drive. Because he drops one on a second and five, it should have been a first down. On third and five, they give the ball to Travis Homer. It's a negative run, and that completely ruins the drive. There's another one that Luther Burden drops

that, again, was one of his best throws of the entire day, Caleb's best throws of the entire day. They had multiple like corner stops in space on this three. They'll do that with like the digs too where it looks like he's going to run the dig and he just like sits on the numbers. And he did a really good job of throwing those

and that ball of burden was a great one. And then the one to DJ Moore on another end breaker, just like three disgusting drops. So that's three place. He had four clear throwaways in this game. So that's seven right there. Okay. So that leaves us with nine plays.

I think there were probably three to five like misses in this game from him. And that is, I think the area of, his game in this one particular that he needs to be better in. They're not like egregious misses but I think if you look at the first couple

third downs he misses Rome on a go ball in the first third and nine that probably should be a better ball than it was and then the next third down there's pressure in his face and he just overthrows the corner out to DJ more like even with that being a little bit blurry because

there's somebody in your face that ball needs to be better I do want to say with him I think this is not necessarily a excuse or justification, but I think some quarterbacks, when they throw deep, they would much rather make sure the ball hits nobody's hands than somebody's hands,

like if they're going to miss. Lamar Jackson has a huge problem with this. He won't underthrow deep balls. If Lamar Jackson misses deep, he's overthrowing you. And I think Caleb has this trait to him where he's like, if he's going to miss down the field, he'd rather just nobody gets a shot at it, which I don't know, he probably needs to rein that in a little bit,

especially with Roman Dunezay, I would say, like, that is a guy who can go up and get the ball. Yeah, just give him a shot, and I think he needs to learn that a little bit, but I think that's kind of where he's at mentally with that right now. And then the last miss that I thought was pretty bad. I think it was actually his most significant miss of the first half. There's a corner route to roam with 25 seconds left on a third down in front of the safety to the right side in the first half.

He needs to hit that. Like that's a throw he needs hit. There are no excuses on that one. So those are like three to four misses. So you come out three to four misses, three drops, four throwaways. Other than that, it's like there are a few third down play. where there was really nowhere to go with the ball. Like, I think that the stat line and the completion percentage in this game

are kind of misleading, speaking to the quality of his play down to down. And there, I actually thought one of his best throws of the day was an incompletion that I would not consider a drop, but they were middle of the second quarter, seven and a half minutes left. He's trying in the red zone to rip the post route to Roma Dunezay on this scissors. It's a great throw. It is an insane throw. And like, I don't really blame Roma Dunezay for not. Like, the window is so small that Rome can really.

only get one hand on it in traffic. And so I don't blame him for not bringing that in. But like, Caleb throws that ball as well as you can throw it into a very tight window in the red zone. And that to me was like, that is like top 10 level quarterback. Like you've got to be able to make that throw if you're going to be one of the special guys. And he's got that in his bag. I absolutely loved him making the decision to throw that ball in that moment.

Yeah, second and one. It's a free one. It's a free one. And I want to see him be more aggressive into some of these tight windows. And so I loved him throwing the ball. And that drive ends with a touchdown. They just run the ball five more times. and they end up scoring a touchdown on that drive.

Then there were a couple plays where there was that the fake screen in the red zone where he throws at the level end up the left side line. No one's really open on that play. You'd like to see him try to fit it into DJ Moore instead, but no one's really open. And then there was another third and five as they were driving where there was really nowhere for him to go with the ball. And they ended up, I think, trying to kick a field goal on that drive.

So other than that, I thought that the job he did replacing Blitzers coming off the left side specifically in this game. They did a lot of corner blitzes. I think he saw those and felt those really well over a good chunk of the game. I think he created well again in this game. And I think some of the throws he had over the middle of the field, especially on play action, I was really impressed by. Like, there were a couple really nice just like drives that he put together over the course of this game.

I just, I think that in the moment, I didn't necessarily appreciate them as much as I should have. He's just, you can tell that he's starting to see the game. And like with him replacing the blitzes, there was one where, Minnesota loves, they run these two high blitzes more than anyone's and they'll usually play like Palms which is some like hybrid version of cover two, cover four on the outside. And there was

one where to his left side they fire the linebacker from that side and so Williams knows, okay, I got to replace the ball into here. And Rome is running like a little hitchhout into that spot. As he takes a snap, he sees the corner stay in the flat. So he's like, okay, that guy's going to stay wide. And I think he knows in the back of his mind, okay, if the

linebacker in this void is firing, the linebacker next to him, the mic, has to sprint over and get to this. And so he throws the ball low in a way to Roma Dunzei, knowing that that linebacker is going to sprint over there. And he fits it in. And he only fits it in because he throws the ball so quickly decision-wise and also like literally miles per hour-wise to get him there.

Like that's just a five, six-yard completion, whatever it is. But that is really hard to make those ones work against the best defenses. I think that was the play that went for like 17 yards. Yeah, he does. He falls and gets back up. Yeah, that was the first drive of the second half. So he does that on second and 11. on the next play, it's a straight drop back from under center.

Murphy is coming off the left side. He flips it to commit for eight yards. Then right after that, he beats the blitz again on a little naked flipping the ball to commit again in the flat. And then Smyth drops the second down throw. And then the third and five goes for a negative play and that drive is over. The next drive, he rips the ball to burden on what should have been a 20-yard gain on second and eight.

That ball gets dropped. There's a scramble on third and eight that should have been a first down. But there was a penalty on that play. So it goes to third and 13. That's the middle screen to burden, which was the best call of the entire game by Ben Johnson to get them back on track. He has a 16-yard scramble on the next play

as the Bears blow play action protection. He throws a corner stop to burden on the next play. He beats the corner blitz again on the next play to commit for 11, and then the drive stalls on that third and three, which I think that fake screen that they don't have completed. That's a moment where I just would have seen Ben run the ball there. Because I actually think they did a really good job

of running the ball on third and short and medium in this game, and I think that it benefited them multiple different times. So I think situationally, he did some stuff Ben Johnson did that I think it was just a lack of feel for the moment like three or four times in this game. But again, overall, I was way less frustrated by the offensive output that I expected to be when rewatching this thing. And like to maybe defend Johnson a little bit,

I think he's learning that his football team is good at things now that literally as recently as like a month ago they were not. And I think that like him just trying to like navigate that is interesting. Like two, I know we're saying a lot about Caleb right now. to give one other guy on this offensive shout out, I thought Drew Dalman played a fucking game, dude. On all of those third down runs.

Every time they ran them all on third down, he essentially had a one-on-one block that he dominated. This was one of his best games on the ground, I thought, all the entire season. It's my favorite game that I've seen from Dalman this year. He was lights out. And then him and Jonah, Jonah Jackson had a couple of one-on-one losses.

Like the Travis Homer third and five, he gets blown up. Darno right had a couple of those moments today too. Yes. But like him and Jonah Jackson working on some of those combos in this game, I thought were just, they were the success they had running behind that interior was, that's what they paid for it to be this offseason. And it was like as good as you could have hoped in this game. Yeah.

So again, I think that a more encouraging performance than I expected, the last play I wanted to mention from him that I think was probably, to me, might have been the biggest mistake he had the entire game. And these are the types of plays I want to see him make consistently. With about 14 minutes left in the fourth quarter, they're running a play against cover two where O'Don's or Zakias kind of runs like a burner post so it's like he takes it

to the corner and then he bends it back inside against cover two and he is open against cover two and Caleb doesn't throw it. He wants to and it's a clean enough pocket. Dallas Turner's one on one with a tight end on that play and he gets pretty good push which he did a lot

over the course of this game and but still in that moment you have to throw that ball because that is a potential touchdown and those are the play is that I want to see him just be a little bit more aggressive on. But again, that throw he had to roam on that second and one, that's not something he's doing all the time. And so I think he's making progress in those moments of like when it's a tiny bit blurry and the guy's not wide open, you're starting to see him let it rip a little bit more often, but it's still not all the way

there yet. And you know what's actually funny with Caleb's overall development arc is that I think some guys come into the league and really push the envelope to a crazy degree to find out like, what can I get away with? Like Patrick Mahomes was. doing this. Jordan Love did this when he first was on the scene. Josh Allen was like this when he first came onto the scene. And then other guys, I think it's, they kind of start from more of a conservative approach and then work up to like,

what are the things that I'm confident throwing? I thought Caleb coming into the league was going to be one of the guys who just did like way too much shit and was trying to figure out what he'd get away with. He's actually been the opposite where it's a lot of like kind of holding the trigger, not sure if I want to do this, but I do think over the last month he's getting a lot more comfortable like, okay, I can

make that throw and I can hit this timing and that sort thing. I thought his feel for the game and just the timing he played with in this game was good, like objectively good. And so that was really nice to see. On the Vikings defense, just a couple guys to shout out. I thought Dallas Turner was really good in this game. The fact that he's gone from like a complete zero for them to like, he's fairly effective now. They put a tight end on him multiple times one-on-one as they did like a full slide the other way and he made them pay for it a bunch of different times. He had multiple plays against the run in this game where he was standing up either Bennett or one of the tight ends.

He blew up a screen, like a screen of burden on the second drive. I mean, just I thought you felt him a lot over the course of this game. And the other guy, which we've talked about a million times over the first half of the season. Jaylor Redmond is just a really good player. He's, he's just a really good player. He's, it's not just that he's explosive, which he is and he's strong. He just sees the game well. Like him, the Homer play, like he just, he sees what the defense is trying to do to him.

He reads blocks really quickly. Like he can read the flow of the offensive linemen and kind of backdoor when he needs to. Like he's just to be that smart and explosive and for him to come on the way that he is, he's a really impressive player. Let's get to the other side of the ball. Again, a 16 of 32 performance

that is not necessarily a proper reflection of what his game looked like in ways both good and bad. So Caleb had three egregious drops from his receivers in this game. I would argue that, so the Vikings were credited with six drops. in this game. I think there were three bad ones and three kind of borderline ones where a receiver

gets his hands on the ball, but I don't, I'm not going to hammer him for not hanging on to it. Right. So the first one on the, there's a third and seven in the first quarter, I can have with through the first quarter. JJ rips a scene ball to Jordan Addison. That ball has to be caught. Like that ball is on him and needs to be caught. There's a third and four in the second quarter. He throws a check down to Aaron Jones. I assume they credited him with a drop on that play. even if he hangs onto it, he's short of the six anyway. And so that one's, I think, you can be going to wave that away. Yes.

There's a crosser to Adam Thielen with about a minute left in the second quarter. That ball can probably be caught, but that thing is hot and a little bit outside. And so I think that one's kind of on the border. He's a high throw into traffic to Justin Jefferson late in the third quarter. Again, the ball hits his hands, but I don't think that's a drop. I think that's a ball that's kind of on the line. And then Addison has a drop in the fourth quarter in the flat that's absolutely a drop and then Hawkinson has another one on a quick out of the sticks at like the two minute mark of

the fourth quarter that's a drop and so I think it was three bad ones three iffy ones but it's not like he was all over the place in terms of where he was spraying the ball over the course of the game there were three or four bad misses in the first quarter but that's mostly where they were isolated yeah like they the Thielen one is the most where like that's one of those ones it looks like a drop but that's a really hard catch for like most guys to make I he's running full speed wall sliding and the ball's a little bit outside. Yeah, like there are maybe a handful of guys who make that catch. So I didn't really blame him for that one.

I think too, like, I think the most frustrating drop to talk about is probably the first one to Addison because that is objectively, Addison should catch that football. Like, it hits him in the hands. The DB is like not that close to him. He should catch that. I also think process-wise, that's just a bad play from JJ McCarthy. That ball can be out like a second early, like a full second, two hitches, whatever you want to call it.

He like, the issue is not just that he takes an extra hitch or two in the pocket. He like full sprints forward for like three steps and then makes the throw. When if he just like stayed on the rhythm of the play, went from right back to his left, that throw is there and there's no DB even close to scare Addison off of maybe catching that ball. So that's a drop for Addison. But I also thought process wise, it was a very frustrating play to watch for the quarterback. He puts himself in traffic so often with how exaggerated his movements are in the pocket. and it runs him into trouble.

I mean, the play where he nearly gets intercepted where Stevenson and I think it was Bayard run into each other. That's a play where people are going to say, well, his arm got hit on that play. His arm got hit because he's like leaping forward into a condensing pocket. And he does that a lot.

Like he just doesn't have a very good sense of how to navigate that space when it's starting to condense. Because again, his movements are just so, exaggerated consistently. I also don't think he's comfortable throwing later in the down like on his spot.

Like staying on his spot and going one to two to three. I feel like once he gets off one, he just feels like he needs to hitch or to sprint to a different spot in the pocket, whatever it is. Like he just doesn't feel comfortable staying on his spot and progressing all the way and getting to three and letting it rip off there. He just, the timing of it does not feel right. And so I don't know if him

like hopping like that makes him feel like he's getting into the rhythm to make it throw, so he can feel comfortable. I don't know what it is, but he just does not feel like he can stand on his spot, go one, two, three, and let it rip. And then the few misses in the first half, I think. The low lights were much lower. Again, we're trying to parse the 16

of 32 performances. The low moments from JJ McCarthy, I think, are notably lower in terms of how much he's missing some of those throws. He had the bad miss on the fake crosser kind of corner return to Addison with 11 minutes left in the first quarter off play action. That's a throw. That thing is open.

and he just misses it by a lot. On the next drive, he sails one for JJ, for JJ, I say JJ. He sales one for Justin Jefferson in the flat on third down. And then the wheel that he misses to, that's like a fake screen rail that he misses to T.J. Hawkinson, like those are three pretty bad misses. And then you combine that with the two interceptions he did throw and the third interception he tried to throw. And you have like six of those 32 throws that are like, woof, even though there were some

decent moments and the drops kind of coming into play there. And there was another like the was 730 in the third quarter. There's another third and seven situation where Jefferson is running an out route from the slot against Noah Sewell. I will talk about it in a minute by the way.

And he just completely airmails it. It's like you get the best receiver in the league and mashed up against the linebacker who can't run. This should be a free completion and he just completely missed that one. And so I just think his best three or so throws a game. Do look really pretty, it's just

the other 20, it's so, so there are like way too many vacillations in his play right now. I don't know what to make of it. Because again, it wasn't as bad as the low lights and the final stat one would lead you to believe when you go back and watch it. But I also think that

there, and we talked about this last week, like, they're just there's a feel to his game overall where it's like, I kind of just want to sit him down and just be like, take a breath, man. Just calm down. Like, just give him like, give him like CBD before the game starts.

And just like have him show out like a tiny bit. Which, you know, he's a big meditation guy. You think he would have been pretty calm at this point. And I do think like there's enough there where it's like, I don't think this is a lost cause by any stretch. I just feel like there is like a discomfort and a franticness to the way that he continues to play that gets him into trouble too many times a game. And I think that yesterday was another example of that.

It's very frustrating to me. I know this is going to sound inflammatory. It feels a lot to me like watching Zach, Wilson. And I know that people are going to be like, well, Zach Wilson was terrible. And like, yeah, Zach Wilson was terrible. But Zach Wilson's like best two or three throws a game were pretty good. It's just the other 20 throws that he was

making a game were not. I don't know if he's as lost in the pocket as Zach Wilson was. I think he is. I think it's pretty dire. Maybe I'm trying to give him a little bit too much grace. Because it, there is like a lack of feel for that space. I just think it's

so, so early in terms of like him seeing live action that I'm not willing to attach those sorts of comparisons to him five starts into his career or whatever it is. Any other aspects of either the offense for Minnesota or the Bears defense in this game that you wanted to mention? I really like Noah Sewell. I was not kidding when I said I was going to talk about it. He is what he is. He's the perfect replacement level linebacker who just hits people.

But he did have, there was a Red Zone drive at the end of the first quarter. On first down, Noah Sewell swipes a lead blocker and then meets the running back in the whole, a one-yard stop. On second down, he closes on a route out of the backfield for a three-yard stop. And then on third down, he runs with the wheel route out of the backfield to force a tight window throw that they don't complete. I was like, dude, if you're a third linebacker who's off the bench can give you some snaps like this.

And I know he's going to get beaten coverage and in space a handful of times. But like he's, I like watching him play. He's just a fun player. Yeah, that exact sequence is one that I wrote down because that was one of the more impressive sequences a bearer's defensive player had over the course of this entire game. I thought the pick that Bayer made, the play that Bayer made on the interception is a really impressive

play. He reads the quarterback's eyes. He's the flat defender on that play. He falls off of it. And then the interception the nation right had is just a really, really nice play by him. But down to down, the defense is still it just gives me... They got run on today. And that was the other thing is that I felt like the Vikings maybe went away from that quicker than they should had. I said it in the moment. You guys heard me saying it. Like,

I'm running the ball until they show me they can stop it. And then obviously that you run into issues when you do that. Like they had that drive or they were just four yard gain, six yard gain, five yard gain. And then it's a third and two. They get a false start and then it goes to third and seven. That's the problem when you're trying to move the ball of that way.

But they were, I think they had like a 55% rushing success rate in this game or something close to it. Like the Bears run defense and just the depth of the bear's interior defensive line overall. It's just not a very good group. And so the defense still gives me like very real anxiety. But again, I came away in this game more impressed by the offense than I expected to be.

All right, we're going to take our first quick break and then come back with a little Bengals Steelers talk. Seahles beat the Bengals 34 to 12 in this game. Steelers go to six and four. The Bengals now sit at three and seven. I think there are a couple notable things about this one that are worth digging into. The first place I want to start, though,

is just the quality of this Bengals defense continues to be pretty horrific. You watch some of the lesser moments in this game, and it's like some embarrassing. stuff and some embarrassing sequences. So as of right now, the Bengals have the worst ever defensive DVOA through 10 games, according to Aaron Schatz. DVOA goes back to 1978.

So we have, what, almost 50 years of data to tell you that this is one of the worst ever. And that matches the eye test, by the way, when you watch them play. They've given up 27 points in nine straight games, which ties the Super Bowl era record set in 2020. So we're talking about historically bad defensive football from this team. And I think down to down, the Seward's offense isn't a very good unit. And so it's not as if they move the ball, I will, over the course of this entire game. But there are like four or five plays and you watch what happens to the Bengals defense. I mean, we can talk about them.

But multiple completions to darn out Washington, multiple third down give up throws that turn into first downs. Just the quality of tackling and the quality of tackling. and the quality of play at the second and third level of this defense is about as bad as I've ever seen it on an NFL team. And so that's the crazy thing. Usually when we see like what feels like an all-time bad defense, usually the front four is horrific. It's getting cave-in.

Think about last year's Panthers. Like the last year's Panthers, some of the guys taking reps there were just like, you, that's unacceptable. This Bengals, their front four isn't good, but it's like a below-average regular NFL front four. The back seven simply cannot tackle in a way. I can't tackle. Yeah.

I actually think if I'm... They can cover okay. I actually, like, when I watch them play and I'm trying to like project this moving forward and we can have this discussion, like, who are the potential building blocks on the defense? I think like, and yesterday was another good example. DJ Turner and Dax Hill like can play in coverage. Like they are real NFL players in coverage.

That is the only nice thing that I am capable of saying about the back seven of the defense. That's exactly where I'm at. Like those guys can run with guys. And so maybe the hope is next year if stuff starts to come together, maybe they can start to tackle a little bit better. But like, yeah, the back seven is in a really, really bad spot. To me, the worst, the most egregious sequence in this entire game, there's a third, in the middle of the third quarter,

there's about seven and a half minutes left. It's a third and 17. Mason Rudolph, who, yes, Mason Rudolph was the quarterback for most of this game, by the way, checks it down to Darnell right, like five yards past the line. Dono Washington, sorry. They're about the same size. He's essentially done all right. and he takes it, fights through one of the players for like five yards near the sticks,

and he converts to third and 17. The Bengals were in dime on this play, so they had six DBSs on the field. On the next play, the Bengals only come out with 10 players on the field. One of those DBs has left the field. No linebacker came on the field. So they end up with 10 men on this ensuing first and 10. So you have this insane third and 17 conversion for Darno Washington that absolutely should not get converted. And then on the next play, you can't even get enough people on the field.

That's outrageous. That is like unacceptable in the NFL. So there's the third and 17 Darnow Washington checkdown that goes for a first down. There's a third and 11 with like six and a half minutes left in the game that they flipped to Kenny Gainwell. And Darno Washington is a lead blocker on that play. That goes for a first down. There's a Darno Washington play we talked about last night where Gino Stone just has a heinous tackle attempt on him in space after Barra Carter is put in the ground by Darno Washington. And so it's just more of the same, like from the Bengals defense.

And I think that we've seen that consistently over the course of the year. And it just hasn't gotten any better, even if you're getting a handful of impressive coverage reps from some young players every once in a while. So that was the state of affairs on that side of the ball. And again, the Steelers' offense is not a very good group. And I don't even think they were very good in this game. There are just multiple, like, awful, awful moments from the Bengals defense that allow them to have some of these conversions. And looking at the Steelers' offense with Rogers, like, you feel. when you watch them.

But looking at some of the numbers, it's incredible with the style that they're playing with in the passing game. So I looked it up after the game just because I was curious. They're averaging negative 3.4 air yards to the sticks this season. The Pittsburgh Steelers are.

That is pathetic. That is dead last in the NFL. I would hope so. 71.6% of the Steelers yardage has come from Yak this year. 71.6 per true media. The league average is 50%. that is just that is the most we came into the year knowing that Aaron Rogers was going to play very dishonorable football and it is the most dishonorable that it could have been I have a question for you I'm going to put you on the spot okay do you think if Aaron Rogers has to miss any amount of time the Steelers offense is appreciably worse with Mason Rudolph than it is with Aaron Rogers I don't think so I don't think it's any worse like you can not that Mason Rudolph's going to do anything but yeah like Mason Rudolph came into this game and had 3.2

air yards per attempt, basically just like flipping it out on getting the checkdowns out, and that was all the offense needed to be. Like, if they can run the ball well and you get two or three decent designed boots or a shot down the seam to Washington, whatever it is, that's the offense. Mason Rudolph can probably do that for you. Let's talk about the other side of the ball before I, let's say, I want to have a conversation, a bigger picture conversation about the bankals before we get out of here. But let's talk about the other side of the ball pretty quickly first.

I thought that, I mean, if you look at the numbers in this game and I looked up because I was very curious about the plan the Steelers defense had. The Steelers defense in this game, 72 and a half percent split safety coverages from the Steelers in this game. That is the most, the highest percentage for a Steelers game in the next gen era dating back to 2018. They've only had a handful of games since 2021 where they were at above 50 percent. And so they did something completely against type in this game.

They played a ton of cover two. there are multiple snaps of two men where they were just doubling Higgins and Chase which it was so nice to see that after the first matchup between these teams where those guys were just feasting the entire game. And what's frustrating about the Steelers is that they do this where it's like

here is a bespoke game plan against a very specific sort of team. We're doing like the bare minimum from a game planning and like specificity perspective when it comes to coverage. And then our front is going to dominate the game often enough if we give them, even a shot.

And that's exactly what happened. Like, they just didn't allow those two guys to beat them. And then the front is so good, especially compared to this Bengals offensive line, that it was not a fair fight any single time that they were, like, put in a situation where Joe Flacco had to hold the ball for more than half a second. Yeah, if you take a few coverage risks,

muck things up on six plays, and you get two or three huge pop plays from your front. Like, that's the formula for this defense. I will say in terms of them doing some interesting stuff, I thought the way that they used Kyle Dugger in this game was really interesting. Like they, even from a lot of the two high shells

that they started, I noticed there were a handful of snaps where they would rotate him in cover three, but not like before the snap. They would kind of just at the snap, let him walk down and just be like a very high hook player. And then as soon as he sees checkdown come and shallow come

and whatever it is, he just goes. Because that's what Kyle Dugger does. He moves forward and letting him be a missile in that way. And then on one of the brackets that you were talking about on Chase, chase runs like an under route and he's the safety over top of it. As soon as he sees Chase under, he flies in front of it, almost picks that one off.

And so them just being like, the best thing that Kyle Dugger does is run forward. Let's give him a bunch of assignments where his job is to run forward. I thought was pretty good a use of him. That was with like two minutes left in the second quarter that player talking about. It's two men. They've doubled on both of those guys. He nearly picks it off.

And then obviously he has to pick six later in the game where they're playing man again. He's just a robber player. And on that play specifically, that's a perfect example. The Bangle or the Steelers are in a five down front. They run a twist with Nate Herbig coming all the way around. Watts caving in the pocket. So you feel that space starts to condense for Flacco.

He gets rid of the ball quicker than he wants to. He throws it right to Kyle Dugger and it's a touchdown. So the front is good enough where you don't have to make it that hard on opposing quarterbacks. You have to make them think like an extra half beat in order for the front to start dominating games. And that's exactly what happened in this game.

So I don't really, it's nice to see the Steelers like being willing to do some of this sort of stuff. And I do think it speaks to just a different gear the defense could potentially have, the offense still just concerns me with like the way the quarterbacks have played and with the way that the receiving core is and just like the overall structure of it. Yeah, I agree. I will say

a couple of other shoutouts on the defense. Joey Porter played. He played awesome. I thought him and Pierre both had some really nice games in this game. Yeah, Pierre had a couple of really good ones too. Like they, I just thought that those guys played really well. And then for a player that I was very critical of for the first month of the season, Keanu Benton continues to play better over the second half of the season. I thought he had a pretty decent days as well.

So now the Bengals are, three and seven. Season's over. What do we do from here? Like as an organization? Yeah. I've voiced my opinion on the offense a lot. I get that Joe Burrow

likes the way that they operate, being what they are as this like shotgun, I'm just going to find my guys, I'm going to be the sheriff. I just don't think that you can operate that way. I think you have to kind of force him out of that and bring in a coach, GM, whatever it's going to be,

that is going to build a little bit more of a structured offense and kind of force things to, because I think the issue that they have with the way that they built this offense is being a team that can really only live in past scripts, that's just like a nasty way to live. It's just not consistent year to year. It's not consistent game to game. I think it puts way too much on the quarterback.

And now with his injury history, I think I would like to build an offense that can kind of start to not necessarily ask him to drop back 40 times. And then obviously with the defense, the defense is tricky because they've thrown a lot of resources at it. They're just all bad. Like, just a lot of the draft picks that they've made have really struggled to hit. And so I think this is a point where you kind of have to hit the reset button. I mean, this is going to be, what, three years where they haven't made the playoffs.

And I know that there are some things that we like about Zach Taylor. And I don't think he's like an irredeemable coach or anything. But at a certain point, the results do start to speak for themselves a little bit. Yeah, I just, I don't know how much you have to like hit the reset button when it comes to like changing. out some of the component parts. But you look at some of the investments that they've made. Like even up front, it's like Orlando Brown Jr. has a $22 million cap hit next off season or next year.

$22 million. Next year. That's $22 million. And so that's hard to justify based on like the level of play that you've gotten from him. But you're going to move on from your left tackle and then have to find another one. Like it just, there are no good answers to the questions that they're going to have to face this off season. And the same thing goes to the defense.

It's like you're going to lose Trey Hendrickson this offseason. And do you have that many building blocks on that side of the ball that you feel good about? No, there's like one or two guys. Like this entire one or two guys that you want to be like the sixth best player on your defense. Yes. In a guy like Hill. Like if that's Hill is like the sixth best player on your defense, that's cool. He's not a we build the ship around this kind of guy.

It was so funny this off season, just hearing some of the rationalizations about, well, you know, Lou just couldn't get the most. out of the young players and they needed somebody that was going to do that and, you know, the thought of, well, how could all of the guys they've drafted be that bad? Like, this has to be at least somewhat of a deployment issue. And then you fire the defensive coordinator and through 10 games have the worst defense of the last 50 years according to some of the advanced stats. And so it just, I said this last week and it was a joke that I made, but this is maybe the

best example of it where there are a bunch of units this off season where, you know, things are going to be different now because we're going to have a new coach, we're going to have some new pieces that we're bringing in. And it's just the Alex Jones shirtless meme, which is like a before and after. He's just red. It's just red. And I think that's all this is.

The Bengals defense is just red. That's all it is now after like the fact that it was supposed to be different because they have a new defensive coordinator. And it is different. It's worse than it was before. It's somehow worse. And like the thing with the personnel like every now and then we do this with like, especially on defense where it's like, oh, he just doesn't, they just don't have their

guys. And we can say, you know, some of these other young players were drafted under Lou Anerum. maybe those were in his vision, fine. But the rookies they drafted this year on that side of the ball can't play. Like, Shamar Stewart has been a complete non-muff factor for them. Demetrius Knight has been one of the worst linebackers in the league. Like, the guys they drafted this year for this defensive coordinator have also not been very good. Like, it's just a very troubling spot for them to be in.

Yeah, we don't have to solve the Bengals now. I think that's going to be an ongoing conversation. But this is a pretty bleak spot to be, considering how much of an opportunity it felt like they had over the last couple years of the quality of the offense. The idea that like that opportunity was lost, like last year into this year, when you have the quarterback and the core pieces that you have, and it's just a couple wasted seasons,

just a really, really tough place to be if you're a fan of this team, because I just don't know what the immediate or quick solves do it look like. We're going to take one more quick break and then come back with a couple of your voicemails in another edition of Monday morning. All right, each week we like to solicit a couple calls

from some of our listeners that are just going through it. Dealing with a particularly troubling Sunday. We've got a couple that we wanted to dig into today. Katie, hit us with the first one. I'm a hurt dog. Don't ask me if I'm all right. What the hell's going on in Kansas City? They're supposed to see the whole AOC and all the big games

and it's their damn right to be in the Super Bowl. At least it's been for the last seven, eight years. I don't know how to handle this. How should I feel? Tell me how to feel. Thank you. That's just the most energetic and lost person we've had the entire year. What are your thoughts?

I think I do believe that the Chiefs will probably be fine and get into the playoffs. I know that the next week is a scary one against the Colts and they've got a couple other tough games against the Texans and stuff coming up. I realize that. And I realized that coming off of year last year where it felt like nothing, you could do no wrong. You could play a game as poorly. as you wanted to and still win 15 of them. I realize all of that feels bad. The only point of concern I truly do have,

and I think I've done some hemming and hauling over, like, the Chiefs offense can be fine. And statistically they are still very good. But there's a lot of like, can the Chiefs offense be fine, this and that? I am so sick of the receiver core. Like, I'm completely over it. They cannot build it this way anymore.

And if it looks like this again next year for like the fourth year in a row, I'm going to start being the I'll pick against, the Chiefs and ride with the guy. Like, I just can't do it anymore. It's funny because they've spent a lot of resources on it. They've just spent a lot of very specific sorts of resources. They keep making the same bet on like the same kind of guy. My stance on this, and again, the Chiefs offense, if you look at, you know, the numbers and

everything else, like, it's still a good unit. It has been a good unit. They're very efficient. Yes. But they have Patrick Mahomes. Like, they should be efficient. There are so many elements with the way this thing is built that remain frustrating. And I think that some of the skill sets they've sought out at the

past catching spots are one of these things. The other part of this is you have the most expensive and arguably one of the best interior offensive line groups in the entire NFL. When are we going to get to a place where this team like gives a shit about actually being able to run the ball on its terms when defenses are allowing them to do it? Like how many examples do we need to have of offenses around the NFL hitting another year and just being so much better overall and being able to take something off of the quarterback when you were able to construct that sort of offense.

The best two examples of this to me, we've talked about it a million times in this show over the last five years, but it's worth bringing up again. Like awakening that both the Rams and the Bills had after that, like, essentially the 2021-ish season is that I think they kind of reached their low points when it came to we cannot run the ball. Like we just can't do it when we need to. And whether that is a practice time thing, whether it's a how you're stacking up your priorities thing, I think both of those organizations got to a place where they were like, we need to start investing in this.

We need to start making sure that we can tap into this version of the offense when we need to. And that's an offensive line thing. And it's even a running back thing. I would actually argue in the case of Kansas City, it is more a running back thing than an offensive line thing. It's not offensive line talent. It's clearly the running back investment. and the way that they're trying to build the offense.

And that's what's so frustrating about this. It's not as if you've got to completely remake everything about who you are because you already have guys in the building that should allow you to do this if you want to play this way. And so at some point in the next year, like going into next offseason, they need to have a conversation with themselves about our ability to run the ball consistently on our own terms. Them not throwing a third round pick to the Jets for Brise Hall.

to me is like a significant misstep. Like you need a real player back there at some point. Like I just cannot believe it's 2025 and we're watching Kareem Hunt. Like I just cannot believe that's real. Kareem Hunt, Isaiah Pacheco and a seventh round rookie running back who was mostly a wide receiver in college. Like that is their backfield. It's completely ridiculous. And I understand the idea of like if we can just be kind of efficient on the ground,

then Mahomes is going to give us enough. But like, what if you could just get? 20-yard chunks for Mahomes without him having to do it. Exactly. And then all of a sudden you're on the 40-yard line and it's like, now he can go do it every he wants to do it. How incredible is it that we have these games where James Cook can run for 180 yards and Josh Allen barely has to be involved?

Like, wouldn't it, how great would that be? Wouldn't it be so nice if you could have those games every once in a while if you were the Chiefs? And guess what? It's easier for you to get there because the looks you're going to have because of who your quarterback is are always going to be advantageous. And so the fact that they have not invested in that is extremely frustrating. I'm not asking you to draft the running back in the first round.

I'm asking you to draft the running back in the third round and at least gesture at the idea that this is important to you. The other thing I'm asking you to do is to draft the pass rush for it in the first round at some point. I know they did. The FAUFAUSE did not work out. Fine. At some point, they need more juice up front. Karloft is a really nice number two as an edge player.

Yes. We know what Chris Jones is. Chris Jones is getting older. like that defensive line in general just isn't good enough. And I think that's another area that they have to address. Overall, when it comes to like the existential element of this as a Chiefs fan, I think it's, I'm sure it's frustrating. I'm sure it's difficult to be working through a stretch like this

when it really has just felt like a given every single year that you're going to be one of the best teams in the league, you're going to get into the playoffs. Here's what I'll say. The Chiefs right now are not a worse team than they were for a huge swath of last year. They're just losing these games when they have. happened to win them last season. And so I do think because of that, because they're not appreciably a worse team than they

were a year ago and they still went to the Super Bowl, I do think that version of them is at least still a possibility, but I don't want to dismiss the fact that this has been a very frustrating process because of some of the deficiencies that are just very clearly there with this team. Yeah, and like they've still had some highs. Like I know they've mostly lost a lot of their games to playoff teams, but like they beat the Ravens. They beat the Lions. Like, they've still won a couple of good games against really good teams. Like, the Lions, especially, they handled in that game pretty convincingly.

So I do still believe that team is in there somewhere. They've just had a couple of close ones against other pretty good teams, to be clear. All right. Let's get our last one here, Katie. I mean, as a Chargers fan, I'm not entirely surprised about the product we see on the field, but it's just disheartening when you use regime to talk about trench play. plays off the blind are weapons and it's just this bad

I mean I get you have the Joel or Sean Slater injuries but it just it cannot be this bad I mean I mean it feels very likely with Greg Roman's back next year and that just feels unexcutable I mean you watch Liam Cohen today great young offense in mind

and they just watch as your easy button offense it just feels bleak going to next year it just when is it going to get better for Justin Herbert? I mean, he played bad game today, but it's very clear he's not the problem. He's the only thing holding this team together the whole year.

It's just sad to see. Just don't want another annual life situation. The offensive line just needs a complete retooling heading into next year. And the tackles being out, that's undeniably like a huge issue, right? Like, you watch this team with and without Joe Alt this year, and it's been a drastic difference between them. but to me one of the more frustrating parts if I was a Charter's fan this would be driving me insane

is like the gaslighting attempt from some of the coaching staff about the quality of play they're getting from the interior guys like the idea that like you're going to keep telling me that Bradley Bozeman is like an important part of this and he's going to keep playing at the level he's been

that would be driving me insane if I were a fan of this team and that's the thing the tackle stuff is like look I know once those guys start getting hurt and you see how bad it is that gets frustrating but that's going to happen to a couple of teams every year where the tackles are just beat to shit. But the interior we knew was probably not going to be very good coming into this year.

Like Zion Johnson has never really put it together. Bozeman was, I think they brought him in for a little bit of like he kind of just is familiar with Greg Roman and obviously he stuck on last year. They tried to bring in Andre James who they had like a little bit of a competition there, but that didn't really do a whole lot. And then they bring in Mackay Beckton who I get is super talented and like fits what they want to do as like an ethos, but really only had one good year in that. the best offensive line ecosystem probably ever.

That's just kind of a risky bet on to make. And so I think we all knew that the interior of this offensive line could have fallen away. And then even a lot of the depth pieces are guys that have been there for a long time and have struggled to give them very useful play when they've been there. And in terms of guys like Jamari Sawyer, Trey Pipkins, who mostly has been a tackle, but has played a little bit interior when he's needed to. It's just the guys between the tackles need, if they don't have at least two starters, two new starters next year, it would be concerning.

As it currently stands right now, the chargers are going to have about $105 million in cap space next year. And I get, you know, last year you don't want to be overly aggressive. You know, you still have a bunch of holes, slow playing it into year two, trying to tap into that ethos that the Ravens had where it's like, we're going to make sure that we're never overpaying for players. We're going to make sure that we're consistently getting some sort of surplus value with every single investment that we're making. I get that.

Like, there's value in that. But at some point, you're going to have to over extend yourself in order to solve a couple of these problems in order to give your quarterback a shot. And I think the offensive line is a place to do that. Like, there are a bunch of guys hitting free agency next year that I think would at least be worth like a conversation if you're a team like this.

Like, do you have two interior players from the bills that are set to be free agents? Connor McGovernor is set to be a free agent and David Edwards is set to be a free agent. I'm not asking you to spend like $30 million a year on a guy, but getting like two starting caliber play with some of that money to shore up the interior of the offensive line. That's all you need.

If you give this guy a real chance, your quarterback, you're probably going to be okay. And the weapons are already good enough. The weapons are already at a level that is viable. And so all you have to do is make sure he's not getting the shit kicked out of him, and you're probably going to be a really good offense. That's the thing is last year, we didn't know if the skill players were going to be good enough.

It was really, like last year was pretty much just Ladd-McConkie had a good year. And then it was a lot of other guys who should be rolled. players for you. But now you've got like, Amerian Hampton looked really good when he was healthy. Like I think he can be like a star running back in this league. Arande Gadsden has been like, he's not going to be a superstar tied end, I don't think.

But to be a young fifth round pick the way that he is, I think he's contributing nicely. Quentin Johnston finally coming alive and like being a functional starting receiver is something that they didn't really have last year. Like they, the weapons are not elite by any stretch, but they are much better than they were last year overall when these guys are healthy. And so yeah, if you can stop Justin Herbert from having like a,

50% pressure rate, like on half of his dropbacks getting pressure it is obscene. If we can drop that down to like 38%, a much more manageable number, he's going to look like one of the best quarterbacks in the league. And he often does when that's the situation he gets to play in. Sometimes these front offices just need to learn lessons, right? Where it's like, all right, we're going to be patient. And then when that patience doesn't work, maybe you need to be a little bit more aggressive and show a little bit more urgency.

This is a perfect example of that. It didn't work out the way that you built it. I understand the tackles are hurt, but independent of the tackles being hurt. the plan on the interior was not good enough. Go out, get a couple sure bets, or at least known quantities at those spots to go along with the tackles, and you're being a spot where you could be a really, really good offense. Like, I get some of the frustrations with Greg Roman,

and I feel like that'll be an ongoing conversation. But to me, this is a personnel issue, first and foremost. And if that personnel issue gets solved into next year with some of that excess money that they have, I do think that this can still be a solidly good NFL offense with at least average offensive line play. I agree. And the last thing I want to say, too,

like, even though I had some issues, and I even said it in the off season that I had some issues with the front office being as conservative as they were, I actually do trust them to take the lessons from this and navigate next offseason well. Like, I do think that the people they have at the top of this organization,

I do trust them. It's just that this, they probably didn't go hard enough this off season, but next off season with the money they can wield, hopefully they hit one or two more picks. This is typically, obviously Hortis coming, coming from a Ravens organization that typically drafted incredibly well and I think they've actually done a decent job

so far with the Chargers. Like, I trust them to navigate this. They just, they're going to have to do it, that's for sure. Last thing we want to hit before we get out of here, Diana reporting that Jamar Chase suspended for one game. Because he absolutely spit on Jalen Ramsey yesterday as part of that fight. That is, that's a pretty incredible thing. And I think it speaks to the wiring of somebody like Jamar Chase

that is going to, with a straight face, be like, I didn't spit on him. Knowing there are million cameras in that stadium. It's 2025. There are cameras everywhere. We know that you just fit on it. So Jamar Chase suspended. Just throw one more log on the just absolute disaster fire

that the Cincinnati Bengals season has been. All right, that is all we've got for today. We'll be recapping Raiders Cowboys on Monday and football tonight. That will be available on the Athletic Football Show YouTube channel. So encourage you guys to go check that out. Just one more thing to mention very quickly. We have a listener survey that we would love for you guys to take if you have the time.

That is available in the description of this episode. Also, if you have not grabbed tickets to our live show at Lincoln Hall in Chicago on January 7th, those are still available but doing a little bit of a playoff preview the week before those games start. So we've sold a good chunk of those, and there aren't a ton of them left. So now is the time to grab one. If you have not, we would love to see you there. For now, that is all we've got. Appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you very soon.