The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 12 Hangover: The Seahawks and Patriots escape with road wins, Cam Ward is good, and JSN is a one-of-one player

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Every contender needs to win a game or two on the road when they aren't necessarily at their best. That goes doubly so for surprise contenders like, say, the Seahawks and Patriots. That's exactly what they both did in wins over the Titans and Bengals, respectively. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dive into those games on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Included: plenty of love for Cam Ward and Jaxon Smith-Njigba. After that, the guys do what they can to console sad Vikings and Buccaneers fans.Rundown (timestamps are approximate_3:33 Seahawks with enough to get past Titans31:11 Patriots get out of Cincinnati with a win51:38 Monday Mourning with the Buccaneers and VikingsConnect with The Athletic Football ShowX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. It's the week 12 hangover today. Derek and I hit two games on this show. We did pretty deep dives on Titans, Seahawks, and Bengals Patriots. A lot of Cam Ward discussion, just what we're getting from Cam Ward, what that means, potentially for the future of Cam Ward. I think both of us were just, again, impressed by what he did against arguably the best defense in the league on Sunday.

We also chatted about JSN, just the season that he's having. what makes him such a special player. Maybe some of the concerns that are still remaining about the volatility of the Seahawks offense when it comes to putting the ball in harm's way, things like that. But really enjoyed the conversation about that game. Also dove into Bengals, Patriots, and just another impressive game from Drake May for most of that game, despite some hiccups early. Digging into some of the limitations, we feel like the Patriots still have.

I think that those were on display yesterday against the Bengals team that they probably should have handled a little bit easy. easier than they did, but really enjoy diving into both of these games with Derek. And then we had two calls on Monday morning and just really digging into the existential dread around what is currently happening with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Minnesota Vikings, two really good calls that I had a lot of fun with. So let's get to all of that with me and Derek right now. We got two games today on the week 12 hangover.

We had a bunch of them in ways both big and small last night. The only ones we really didn't touch down at any sort of. of length for the Patriots Bengals game and the Seahawks Titans game. So those are the two that we're digging into today. We have a couple of your Monday morning calls to chew on a little bit later. Derek is very excited that one of them is about the Minnesota Vikings. So we've got a lot of fun stuff on tap today. I try to set an embargo and no matter what I do, there's always something to talk about.

We got the Monday morning and then we had earlier today, I know I realize I'm breaking the embargo now myself, but like J.J. McCarthy is in concussion protocol. like it's just there's always something that's getting in the way of what I've tried to do here. Can't run from it. It's coming for you all the same. We're going to start with the Seahawks Titans game. The Seattle Seahawks knock off the Titans 30 to 24. Seattle goes to eight and three. There is still one game behind the Rams in the NFC West. The Titans now sit at one in 10.

Where do you want to start this conversation? Do you want to start it with the joke that I told right before we started recording that got you guys going for a second? Yes, because it legitimately freaked me out walking into this. this call. I was telling Bellar, I think you had like jumped in on our call right beforehand and I was telling Belly that like Cam Ward was incredible, which we're going to talk about. And like two seconds later you were like,

this might be an interesting show. I don't know about Cam Ward. And I about lost my shit and like closed the call. I was definitely kidding. I knew that would get a rise out of you and that's why I did it. And it did. He was incredibly fun in this game. I mean, he had four or five just sick,

incredibly entertaining dynamic throws and that seems to be happening pretty much every single week. There are any number or any handful of them we can pick from. My favorite throw of the game is probably the one that you're going to point out to. There's about four minutes left in the second quarter. And the Seahawks rotate into like a cover two look. And he throws a seam ball to James Prochet up the left seam. And he leaves it just far enough to his left away from the backside safety

to give Prochet a little bit of space to catch that ball. and everything about it, the arm angle, the placement, the velocity, the decision, the aggressiveness. It checks every single box that you want it to when you're trying to figure out how you want your quarterback to play. And I think my favorite part of the whole thing, which speaks to where the Titans are right now, after that ball is completed, Kevin Coogler goes, James Prochet's first catch of the season. Yep. I had a moment where I was like, I saw Jay Prochet and I'm like, that can't be the James Proche that came out of SMU. eight years ago. There's no way. And lo and behold, there it was. It was him. And like, that is truly like, I need to, people need to understand the thing with Ken Ward is like, you look at all

of his box scores. I've made this joke before. 147 yards, zero touchdowns, one pick. He's got like 55% completion. And then you turn on the tape and it is just like throw after throw after throw like this. Like he is playing out of his mind. And like that one was definitely my favorite, but he had a couple of other ones in this throw. Like there's with about five minutes left in the third quarter, they motion somebody out to the right to have him running the wheel up to sideline and they run like a post wheel concept. And Ward, as soon as his back foot hits on this three step gun drop, he is ripping that ball to the wheel route because he sees the corner like kind of attaching himself to the post. And like, he's just so quick to when he sees the slightest movement from a corner or a safety or

even just a guy like slightly tilting his shoulders. He's like, I can throw it. And he has the arm talent to do it. And that to me is like those four or five moments a game, it looks like guys like Matthew Stafford and Dak Prescott. And that to me is like, we've got some stuff that we're still going to need to hone over the years. But this is, that's the type of stuff I want to work with.

Oh, I already think that he's like a more dynamic creative thrower than Doc Prescott has ever been in his entire career. He got more arms. He got more arms. He does every little thing right as a quarterback. And then Cam Ward certainly doesn't do every little thing right. right now. But when it comes to like pure armed talent and creativity, he is bringing a ton of stuff to the table. And I think that we do this too often with quarterbacks where we stylistically

like them. And when the production isn't there to the degree that you want, just an objective level, we try to explain it away and then a bunch of people on the internet get frustrated. And I completely understand that. This is one of those scenarios where let's stick with this for a little bit and just see where this goes before we start making proclamations or starting arguments about preferring an aesthetic type of quarterback versus one who's effective. This is an heinous, heinous situation. It doesn't get much worse when it comes to what Cam Ward has been dropped into this year. And so let's see him with a different staff next year and let's see if some of those objective measures can get a little bit better. But even limiting it to this season, that sequence

I talked about where he hits that seam ball on that third and nine. On the same drive, they have a fourth and one. And he throws like a rail route to Gunner Helm down the left side line that hits Gunner Helm in the hands. He drops it. And then on fourth and one, they get stuffed in plus territory. So if you're sitting there being like, well, why aren't the numbers better and why aren't they scoring more points if this quarterback is so good?

There are plenty of examples of this in every single game as to why it's happening. on the first play of the game, the third down of the game, excuse me, on the first third down of the game, he throws a slot fade to Chimeri D.K. That is a beautifully thrown ball against Tariq Wollen. It would have been a somewhat tough catch,

but it's a catch you should make in that situation as an NFL receiver, and the ball gets dropped. And so I don't think this is just us wishcasting what we want Cam Ward to be. I think there are plenty of examples each and every game of Cam Ward's current situation letting him down.

Yeah, it's bad. Like this, the past catching core is just not good. Like the offensive line, I think has like sort of, the offensive line is not as disaster levels. I think it was early in the season. They still struggle a little bit, but the fact that it wasn't like a playable. Absolute nightmare yesterday speaks to the uptick and the quality of past protection compared to what it was over the first like six weeks of the season.

Yeah, like those guys are giving him a chance, which a guy of his, of war's athletic ability, He's not like Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen, but he's like in like the Mahomes tier where I think he does a really good job of just he has the agility. He has really good flexibility. And like I think what is really impressive to me is Ward just has a very good presence of mind of where he needs to be moving and like how to move. Like he does there are so many instances. If you watch him when he breaks the pocket, he immediately looks how to climb back to the line of scrimmage, whether that's to become a runner or to just have like a shorter distance between whatever throw he's trying to make. He just has such a good sense of how to make plays easier on him. And then even as a runner and as a scrambler, I think he does an incredible job of knowing how his movement is going to pull a defender here or there so that he can find somebody to throw down the field. And that's just like, and he's played 10 NFL games and he's already good at that. It's just, he just does a lot of the, like, the big throws that he makes the three or four

ones are like, that's what you clip and that's the fun stuff. But there really are a lot of, I think, smaller, quieter parts of his game that just look more like a veteran than he should for a guy who's in his first year. It's such a cool example. And there were a few of them in this game. He had a third and five completion in Gunner Helm late in the third quarter. And he scored a touchdown on a scrimble in the next play where it's exactly what you're talking about, where he's moving up and right through the pocket.

And he knows that's going to yank a defender. And he kind of have his little sidearm flip back across his body to Gunnor Helm to get the conversion and then they score a touchdown. I don't think this was a close game. But I don't think this was a game that was a game that was a game that was. was a total blowout the entire time with like multiple cosmetic scores at the end. It's 30 to 17 after that play that we're talking about. On the next drive, Jeff Simmons beats Olo and Timmy for a sack on fourth and three.

The Titans get the ball back with, I don't know, like six, seven minutes left, maybe even more than that, left to go in the game. And on the ensuing Titans drive when they're down 30 to 17, Cam has a ridiculous, crazy completion to Xavier Restrepo on third down, where he makes Tank Lawrence Miss in space, he extends to his right, he throws the ball all the way back across his body to the middle of the field. Restrepo makes the play. They're in plus territory.

And then immediately, the drive gets torpedoed by a hold and a sack and it's over. And that essentially ends the game. Earlier in the game, almost the exact same sequence where it's a third and three on their second drive. He climbs in the pocket. He finds D.K. on a crosser for like 25 yards. And then immediately there are two penalties, including a hole drawn by Leonard Williams. And so that it was a closer, it wasn't totally lopsided, I guess is what I would say.

Like there were openings in this game for the Titans to at least have a chance. And if that hadn't happened in the fourth quarter and they go down and score a touchdown, they're down one score in the fourth quarter. The Seahawks were in control for the most part throughout this thing. But it wasn't like an absolute drubbing from start to finish. Yes, like the Seahawks deserved to win this game and they were the better team. But again, they had chances to at least make this like a one score. Like maybe we can get the ball back inside the two minute and actually go and win this game.

And obviously that would have required a much better effort from the other 10 players on the field. But again, I know it sounds crazy again for some of the stat lines that he puts up. But like I really do think that Cam Ward is playing well. And this was this game was just another installment in that. Like, he's been awesome. I think all you can hope for if you are a team in the Titan situation and a quarterback in Cam Ward situation, situation. Am I leaving your rookie year saying, I can't wait to see what this guy looks like in better circumstances? If that is your overarching thought about a team in the Titan spot,

I think that's like the best thing you can ask for. And that's precisely where I am with Cam Ward. Who knows? You know, maybe if they get the right offensive coach in there, it doesn't work out the way that we wanted to. Maybe they don't get the right offensive coach in there. We never get to see that experiment through. But as I sit here right now, I'm, wondering who can be Ben Johnson for Cam Ward next year? Like, is there somebody out there who can do this? Because I really, really want to see him with that honest shot to make good on whatever he has. You know what? I honestly think with Cam Ward, I mean, getting one of those guys is obviously going to help any quarterback. You just need passable circumstances. Yes. You just need passable circumstances

in guys who can catch the football. I actually do think that he's a guy who could run like a multitude of offenses and would be totally fine. We just got to get some veteran pass. catchers that can actually like give him a little bit of help more than what he's got. I think it's a good argument. The idea that we're just shooting for a floor here because the guy is good enough, I don't necessarily disagree with that framing. Just give him a chance and let the creative guy with a rocket arm go and do some fun stuff. I will say too, like he's, you said earlier that like we, a lot of times with these young

quarterbacks, like get out ahead of our skis and we end up having to have these arguments and stuff like that. Cam Ward is the quietest number one overall pick ever. So I don't even think we're going to have to do that. We can just enjoy him in peace. and it will be if he pops in two or three years, we can just have fun with it. I was going to ask you this because you're the perfect person to ask about this.

Just with your attachment to some of these young guys and your perspective on who's played better than the numbers, when it comes to a guy like Cam Ward, who objectively has the worst statistics for any starting quarterback in the league outside of J.G. McCarthy. Like, if you look at anything, EPA drop back, all that kind of stuff, which, to be clear, those are expressions of the health of a passing game overall.

They are not an indictment of a young quarterback. I think it's important to separate those two things. But the actual production, for the most part, has been very bad. Like, bad to the point that it would scare you if you were not watching the games. Is there anybody you can remember in, like, semi-recent history who had down-to-down advanced numbers this bad that you maintained this level of hope for coming out of their rookie year? Because I have to assume you feel better about him right now than you felt about Caleb Williams

last season. I actually, so that one's a little bit tricky because I do still think that Caleb, even though Caleb's down to down was worse than Cam Ward's is, there was still a level of like, even though Cam Ward is really talented, that Caleb is like extra talented, that it was like, I still like am really excited to see this through.

I think in terms of a guy who like that didn't have necessarily elite tools and the down to down was completely dog shit for most of his rookie year, was Trevor Lawrence. And obviously that I would guess. He's the one where like I still had a lot of faith that that was going to work out. Other than that like I truthfully was like I thought Josh Allen was going to be like pretty close to DOA.

So like there are some that like I've completely missed on that on. I would say the one where I thought even though the down to down numbers were really bad as a rookie, Trevor Lawrence. And then like because I think some people would think maybe Drake May with how few games the Patriots lost last year. But like his numbers were bad. Actually good. Yeah, exactly. Like his numbers were good. They just couldn't win a football game.

And so I would probably say like Trevor is the closest. That was going to be my guess as to what you were going to say. I was hoping that wasn't going to be the answer because of everything that has happened in the ensuing five years. But I do think that is the closest comparison that you can make. Sticking with that side of the ball, I thought the main stuff I liked from the Seahawks in this game defensively. One, every like random second level defender or even third level defender, the Seahawks are trotting out, is going to make like two massive hits a game, apparently. So Ernest Jones and Tyree Snay were both hurt in this game.

So Pat O'Connell is coming in and playing next to Drake Thomas. already said that Drake Thomas is like an insane little missile three times a game. Pat O'Connell had two like, absolute like dropping the hammer hits in the run game in this game, which is just seemingly every single player on the Seahawks defense plays with that kind of energy. And I thought there were multiple like very cool dialed up pressures from Mike McDonald in this game that the Titans had absolutely no chance to pick up. Yeah. And like it wasn't even just the random guys. You know who I thought had like a vintage performance in this game was Devin Witherspoon. Devin Witherspoon was incredible in this game.

The first nickel, like he's firing through the B gap, running back tries to pick him up. No shot. Just has nothing like Witherspoon just explodes him. And then my favorite clip, I posted this on Blue Sky. There's they,

before the whole shot that we were talking or the seam throw that Ward made against Cover 2 on the play before that, they tried to throw a screen to the right to Gunner Helm. Devin Witherspoon runs the white. receiver trying to block him like five yards back and gets to the line of scrimmage and like leap strikes gunner helm i'm like this guy is just an insane person i love him so and then he blew up another screen later in the game like he just the capacity for this db room to just hit people there was a different one where they like they fired one of the linebackers and so they had tie o'cotta rotate down

behind him but he saw that it was a run so he just kept going and blew up a run at the line of scrimmage like they Mike McDonald's got everybody playing at this stage. Let's get to the other side of the ball. Jackson Smith and Jigba is an insane, insane football player. Like I, here's my question that I want to frame to you about this. Obviously, he has another monster, monster day. Eight catches on 10 targets for 167 yards. Sam Donald, once again, is a perfect passer rating when throwing the ball to JSN in this game.

12 weeks into the season, he now owns the Seahawks single season receiving record. Took him 12 weeks to do it, which is bonkers. But you watch it down to down in this game, which is some of the stuff that we're doing, and we can dig into it. But I wanted to ask you a big picture question before we really started diving in. Can you remember a receiver who has been, in our lifetimes? I'm sure there are other people that you could throw out from different eras. But since I started covering the league and came to my modern understanding of the league, let's say the last 15 to 20 years, can you remember a receiver who was this dominant from the this sort of physical profile.

And I'm not saying that he's not talented. I'm just saying that the way he's talented is so specific and unique to lead to this level of dominance. I just don't know if there is a player who has risen to anything close to this level who really reminds me of him. I don't know. Because like in terms of like someone being that skinny for the position, it's maybe like you have to go all the way back to like Chadococinco or something like that.

Like, and even that, I feel like what JSN is doing right now, like, Ocho never had a year like this where he is leading the offensive player in the year discussion. And so that to me is maybe the closest. It's not just the body type, but just the way he moves. Like, I just can't remember a guy that moves this way being this dominant. And maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe no one's moved this way. And that's why it's never led to a player being this dominant. Like the play he scores, the, it's not even the touchdown.

There is a play in the third quarter. to open the third quarter, where they have a 56-yard completion to him. And he's in like a condensed stack on the right side. And as he gets his release off the line of scrimmage, he kind of slithers around like an underneath defender. And then as he's moving vertically, he sells the corner route like just enough with his head and shoulders to get the post-safety turn that direction in single high.

And then he immediately snaps it back across the field, never slowing down. And we've talked about this before. It really does look like he's just on, roller skates this entire time. And so that combination of the smoothness of movement, the subtleties in some of the route running and how he's selling things at top of routes, and just that very, very easy acceleration on that play specifically.

And Darnold drops it in. It's a 56-yard gain. Donald's climbing in the pocket and beautifully layering that ball in, wall moving up the pocket. It's an insane play. But I'm watching that play and I'm like, who, I've never seen this. Like, I don't think I've ever seen a guy who is. like this on an NFL field that is capable of doing these things.

I mean, the level of flexibility that he has to be able to sell that. And like, that's the thing is he never loses speed and like there's no choppiness at the top of his routes ever. Like, I think in terms of like a guy who is maybe that smooth and that slinky, obviously Justin Jefferson has some of that to him. But he's a little bit bigger. So it looks a little bit different still. It's also a little bit more violence with the way that Justin Jefferson moves.

Like the strides with Justin Jefferson. he's chewing up ground in a slightly different way. Like, there's a lot of nuance in this. And again, I'm not saying that JSN is like some unicorn that's the best receiver of all time, but just the way that he's dominant. It's hard for me to put my finger on players that remind me of this. I really can't think of that many other at the receiver positions that can do that. Like, again, like in terms of guys who maybe move that like now, like there's a little bit of this to Vontas Smith maybe.

But like even that, I still feel like there's a level of flexibility with JSN that is a little bit different than what Smith offers. And then the touchdown he scores, they motioned him into the number three spot from empty in the first half that leaves him one on one with Amani Hooker in man coverage. He just runs right by him. Which God bless it. I actually think Omani Hooker has been playing decent ball this year, but that's just not a winning matchup for a guy like that.

Like that's just most corners can't cover JSN correctly in that scenario, let alone. You have a safety in man coverage against the guy having one of the greatest wide receiver seasons of all time as a vertical. player as being a vertical player as part of that overall package, he just runs right by him. And again, to Sam's credit, just drops it in. It's a beautiful ball. And then I honestly think one of my favorite plays from him the entire game was an incompletion. There was that throw in the back corner of the end zone. I want to say it was right before the half. Dude, yes. Where he, they run a little bender against quarters. And he does the exact same thing where he kind of gives like a

subtle little head fake to the corner. So the outside cornerback widens a little bit and then he bends it back inside toward the goalpost. Sam hits him and JSN has the presence of mind while in mid-air to like stick his feet backwards

to try to get them in bounds while he's flying full speed toward the back of the end zone. And he nearly does it. Like he almost makes that play. And the fact that it was even on the table is fucking insane. I love that route and that throw too because I actually I honestly think most teams when they're like around the 20th yard line there actually get scared to run like the post or bender at the goalpost because you have to throw that ball hard as shit to be able to fit that window.

And immediately. And he did. Yes. And Sam Donald has done it multiple times this year. And I know that he obviously trust JSN to get open on that and make those tough catches. And again, he almost did there. And like so the fact that they kind of have that it is almost a. unique thing for them that Donald is willing to access that. And then the other thing I want to go back to on the touchdown, maybe my favorite trait of JSN's. The best receivers in the league are the best at the quiet, dirty push at the very end, right when the ball is about to get there. Plus the late hands. JSN is incredible at this. Dude, he did it on this. And then obviously the one-hander he had last week, he does like a little just handfight push off. Like he's finding that half a yard right before the ball arrives. It's just like he's.

amazing at it. Yeah, I mean, he is, to me, he's like running up the score when it comes to Offets a Player of the Year and just like the season that he's having. The, how consolidated they're receiving production is with him specifically is absolutely wild. Like, it just to know that you are like 50% of your team's receiving output or whatever it is and still be able to produce at this sort of clip is just a rare thing. We very, very rarely see stuff like this. For the rest of the offense overall, this is a game where it's a,

Pretty much a blowout win. You're in control the entire time. JSN has another monster game. It's a mixed performance from Darnold in the sense of how it makes me feel about what it's going to look like in more of those high leverage moments down the road. Like how often the ball was getting put into harm's way in this game and how many, like, close calls there were. There's the one to K-9 in the right flat in the first half that easily could have gotten intercepted. There's the tip ball at the goal line that easily could have gotten intercepted. We're talking like probably three or four balls that an inch here or an inch there, they could lead to turnovers.

And it doesn't matter in a game like this, but it matters when you're playing against the Rams. And so I leave this game not exactly sure how I feel one week after the Rams performance, because I think that there were enough moments in this one where if you want to be kind of fatalistic about it, that it does make me worry about what this thing is going to continue to be for the long term. Do you think that's unfair? No, I don't think so. Like I think that we know that Sam Darnold when he has, when the offense has to be a little bit more dropback or asks a little bit more of him than that we've talked about before. They're like a middling dropback team because I think that is where you invite some of the Sam Darnold volatility.

I also think in this game, I know Seattle had stretches where they ran the ball well, but as a past protection unit, I think the Titans defensive line was actually kind of set up to handle the Seahawks offensive line and give them issues because they're a front that is very long. very strong, just wants to push the pocket on Sam Darnold. And I actually thought they had some really good moments of doing that. And you could see Darnold get a little bit, I don't know where to go or how to get out of this pocket. And he had a couple of frantic moments I thought in this game that, again, added to a little bit more of the volatility that you can get from time to time with him when you knock him off the railway.

Yeah, a couple of those volatile moments turned out really well. Again, that touched that 56-yard completion, the way he's climbing in the pocket and the play he makes there is really, really impressive. And he is capable of those things. but you still see some of that volatility. And guess what? Maybe that's just going to be how it is. Maybe that's just going to be what it looks like the entire season,

and you've just got to hope that those two or three moments in any given game don't end up going the other team's way. And maybe that's just what it's going to be for the Seahawks this year. And considering how strong a lot of the other elements of who they are have been up to this point, I think you can survive that way. Maybe there's just no eliminating it. It's just going to be a feature of what they are. And I think that's fine because honestly, outside of the top five or six quarterbacks,

almost all of these guys have something where it's like when things start to unravel in XYZ fashion, this is just who they are and what you have to deal with. Like Jared Goff, for example, it's like if you pressure him and keep him inside of the pocket, you're going to end up with some of the volatile pressure stuff. If Jared Goff ends up having to play a playoff game outside, that's going to end up like this, where it's just like he can be a good quarterback and there are just one or two of these other things that you have to live with.

And so I know again, I've talked about like with a quarterback like Sam Darnold in particular, his bad moments look and feel so bad that you feel like you can't live with it. But like the reality is he doesn't really have that many more bad moments than a lot of other quarterbacks. It's just his are very loud. And, you know,

his great moments are obviously very loud too. And I think that's just some guys are going to be like that and you have to live with it. And I think it's okay. We're going to take our first quick break. and then we're going to come back and chat some Bengals Patriots. My first thought about Bengals Patriots, if I were a Patriots fan and they had lost this game,

I would have lost my mind. I just, I don't know what I would have done. To have multiple situations where you have fourth and goal and then come away with no points on one of them and then have to kick a 19-yard field goal on another one and lose, and the pick six is kind of wash each other out in this game.

Like there was one each and so. at a certain point that just comes out in the wash. But to have the ball in those moments and to have moved the ball as efficiently as they did down to down for a good chunk of this game and then get stood up twice inside the five. And then also they kicked multiple field goals on fourth and two from plus territory in this game. And so to lose a game like that where you had four or five fourth down decisions that might do you in against the team, you're clearly better than I would have lost.

my mind and thankfully that we don't have to explore that reality. It just weirdly felt like New England was not all the way like on the gas in this game. And that feels like a weird position for a team that has been bad for years now. And like obviously they're not thinking of it as like, oh, they've gotten away with an easy schedule. But like the reality is they've won as many games as they have because they've had an easy schedule. And so it just kind of felt weird that they just felt like a team where they could take the

pedal their foot off the pedal a little bit. Like, they just, Drake May for the first, I don't know, 20 minutes of this game, just played like shit. Like, he just was not accurate, was not seeing stuff well. He kept trying to make throws under pressure that he didn't need to. He was weirdly unwilling to get outside of the pocket in a way that I rarely see for him. Like, it was just for 20 or so minutes in this game just like was really bizarre in a lot of the decisions he was making. And just wasn't accurate. I think that the first couple drives, they got them with a couple pressures.

Right. And so on third down specifically, he was kind of sped up in ways that, you know, forced some of that erratic decision making. And then the pick six is just like, that's just an awful moment. I mean, on that play, Hunter Henry is, you look at it from the end zone angle. And I think you can kind of make an argument that he thinks Henry is going to keep it bent outside and Henry bends it back behind the linebacker. And so that's why Drake leaves that throw a little bit outside.

But even when you watch from the end zone angle and you see the body language, it's a bad throw. Like that's a ball that should be left a little bit further inside where he can make a play on it. Instead, it's an overthrow and behind him and it gets returned for a touchdown. After the pick six, there was probably one or two other moments

where he puts a ball in traffic. But after the pick six, I didn't, I had very few problems with the way that he played. But I think you're totally right. For the first 20 or so minutes, it was some of the worst stretches we've seen from him this year. He had one other bad one, I think in the fourth quarter where they pressure him on a third down.

It was like third and nine and he like throws it almost at two defenders trying to throw it. Again, under pressure like not moving off his spot against the free rusher, which is just weird for him. So I thought that that was a little bit weird.

Yeah, the pick six he throws up with one 56th left in the fourth quarter is that third and seven where they had a free runner coming at him. That was a near interception. That was like the others played out. That's worth mentioning. You're right. Which like at that point in the game,

hey man, if they picked that off, you might lose this game. So that was just a little bit of like a, we got to tone ourselves down a little bit. And so that was a little bit of a frustrating moment. And then the pick six, like, I think on one hand, I understand why, yeah, Hunter Henry running up the seam. You have single high coverage.

So he thinks I should stay outside of the safety. The thing is like the safety is shaded to that hash anyway. So he's not really playing in the middle of the field. And so I get why Hunter Henry actually tried to bend it. And like May just was kind of wrong and not seeing that. The other small thing I want to say about May, I think he's great and he makes a lot of great throws. two or three times a game he takes off too much on throws. Like he doesn't drive the ball enough.

And that's scary for as much as he throws over the middle of the field. That's an interesting thought. Part of me is like his ability to layer throws is so much of a strength of his that I think sometimes you just have to live with that. Like he, as he, because I think right now we're still in an era of his career where he's figuring out what he can and cannot get away with. And so I think he's trying to shape different throws and take things off of it and put things on to it.

And so there are going to be moments where that's just like a tick off here or there. But the rewards at the end of that process, you're already seeing them. And I think this is a good example to me where I'm trying to think about and I don't, I hate doing this. I just hate doing this, but it's hard not to comparing the young quarterbacks and just being like, well, this guy has this and this guy has that. When you watch Drake and you think about other guys like Caleb Williams, have had some really good flashes this year, Caleb drives the ball as well as anybody, right?

I mean, his ability to put RPMs on the ball and drive the ball to the intermediate areas the field is incredible. He cannot shape throws and layer throws and throw with the sort of touch that Drake May has. There are plenty of examples in this game, but my favorite one, the ball he puts up the right sideline late in the third quarter to Matt Collins, is gorgeous. Like, it's just like a simply beautiful throw against man coverage. Like how the feathery touch he puts on that ball to drop it in there,

that is the product of like really refined and nuanced quarterback play. And so I think that in order to get there, you're going to have some moments where the calculations on what he has to put on the ball or take off the ball are maybe going to be a tick off here or there, considering this is like a 23-year-old player 20 games in his career. I do agree with that. Like, I do think in the end when he starts to hone this like fully by year, three, year four, whatever it is going to be, it's going to look incredible.

This reminds me a little bit, and I brought up this example before. Like, I remember the first year and a half of Lamar Jackson's career. He kept trying to throw sidearm. And more often than not, it was kind of disastrous. And I was like, listen, this guy is too talented for it to not eventually work out and look good. And then it became like truly a staple of him. his game that eventually he really started to hone. And so I do think that we'll get there with May. It's just when he does take a little bit too much off, when he shouldn't, it does look a little bit

scary to me. And so again, I love him, but that right now is like his, that is the one war to me with him that like frustrates me a little bit. I hope that by next year it starts to clean itself up a little bit. I think it's a great comparison because there are only so many guys who have this breath of arm talent that we see in like a given era of the NFL. And it's not arm strength. It's not like overall physical ability. It's armed talent. And we've talked about this,

you and I for years, that Lamar is in like a very rare tier of players. That's like Matthew Stafford, Lamar Jackson, these guys who are these unbelievably malleable creative throwers that can kind of do anything with the ball when it comes to arm angles, trajectory, the way the ball leaves their hand. And I think Drake May is like,

at least adjacent to that conversation. if he's not all the way in that tier. And when you have guys like that where everything is available to them, the exploratory process is going to be kind of weird and uneven and messy at times. And it almost is a bad thing when you can do anything with your arm because you're tempted to try anything. And he kind of seems like he's in that group of guys. He is extremely willing to try it. That was the stuff coming out of North Carolina, right?

It was like, man, he's a little bit too willing to do a lot of this weird stuff. And I do think that when I imagine that coming out of college, I thought it was going to be more of him trying to do weird stuff outside of the pocket. Decision making. Yes, decision making. But it really has become more him, what can I get away with armed talent wise within the pocket? Which when we already know he can do this stuff outside of the pocket,

that is how you accelerate to being one of the coolest and best quarterbacks in the league and already being an MVP candidate in year two. And by the way, we haven't even mentioned the insane seam throw that he ripped a pop. Pop Douglas. Oh my God. That's easily the best throw of the game. Easily his best throw of the game.

Like he, the fact that he, again, it goes back to Arm Talent, that he puts enough RPMs on it to split the safeties, but has just enough touch on it that it like falls just over Barrett Carter's shoulders.

Like it is, it's an unbelievable throw. And the fact that he can do that pretty consistently is cool. And then the other small thing about that, I loved that right after that their next play call was they kind of rewarded Pop Douglas by giving him an and around carry on the next play and it pops for like another first down that that like to me it's like a small cool coaching thing i love sometimes well my favorite part about that and so the throw you're

talking about with the scene ball it's third and 11 early in the second early in the third quarter the bengals get into like a weird cover two rotation which and the bengals do this all the time when they get into these funky cover two looks the cover two safety gets way too wide like he flies just way too wide it happened in the steelers game like five different times in that thursday night where the Steelers are just running four verts and the Pengel safety is on the sideline for some reason and the guy's running up the field. So that happens again. But Barrett Carter as the pole runner who's supposed to run up the middle of the field with any sort of vertical route, he actually plays it very well. Like he makes up for the fact that the safety is probably too wide and it forces a very

difficult throw from Drake May on third and 11 and he just layers it in there beautifully. It's a perfect illustration of what we're talking about when it comes to touch and being able to to shape those sorts of throws. And then like you mentioned, they handed it to Pop Douglas on the next play. What I really liked about that is that the Pop Douglas play, they ran a play action

off of that specific action in the first half. And so it's just such a cool example of how everything in this offense is just well tied together and everything has a purpose and they're doing these little things to make things easier on their players. There was a play,

uh, the drive after it was 1410 Pats and then they had a drive where the defense spleen came like downhill on a sim pressure on a second and 18 it was right after the pick six and then the bengles punted and on the next drive for the Pats they come out in 21 personnel and empty with the two tight ends on the left side

and I'm just sitting there being like you don't need to do this against this defense coming out in like heavy personnel split out into empty to get these advantages in the passing game. And they run like a little switch release with the two tight ends. And it's like a 14 yard completion. It just those are really fun details. But in a game like this, it was kind of like, let's make this a fair fight. Like you don't need to pull out this type of shit against the Bengals.

It is a little bit mean and unnecessary against a defense like this. They had this almost felt like there were parts of it that they were trying to just see what they could get away with. Which again, which is why I felt like it was such. a weird game plan for them overall and just like a weird game where they just did not feel like 100% locked in, which I realize is not a very good like actual analysis, but it just did not feel like they were playing their best ball. And it just felt like they were doing a lot of weird kind of funky stuff like that. A couple other Drake May moments, I think of work pointing out. The first

touchdown to Hunter Henry is just absolutely disgusting. The right tackle loses. And so he has to step up in the pocket and he finds Henry down the left sideline. It's actually like a beautiful cover three beater that the Patriots run on that play where the left side gets bled out, the corner does, and they run Henry back into that space. Yeah, and then the other one that I wanted to mention was the Matt Collins play. So those are like the handful of throws that stick out. And so I think the Patriots offense again, you get bogged out of the Red Zone multiple times, both of those fourth and twos where they kick the field goal, I'd be tempted to say you

should go for it in both of those moments. And if they almost came back to bite them, like this was a close game at the end. And if you could make the argument on the other side that you take the points there and that if you don't have those field goals, you lose this game. But I think if you score touchdowns, you don't even make it a conversation as we get a little bit deeper into this game. And I think the quality of your offense against that sort of defense should embolden you in those moments. And so I think that settling for those field goals, in my opinion, almost came back to bite them personally. I would go for it and give the potential MVP quarterback the chance of the ball.

Because one of the fourth and two, especially in what the one they fail on the goal line, they're trying to handle the ball off. Listen, I know the Bengals defense is terrible and the New England Patriots offense has been good for most of the season. The worst thing about the New England Patriots offense is their ability to run the ball in between the tackles. And maybe the best thing about the Bengals defense is their defensive tackles. And so them giving a ball straight up the gut, I was like, what are we doing? Even the whole game, I was so kind of confused about that being their strategy and how they wanted to run the ball in this game. Like all of the downhill interior runs against this Bengals team. I was like, how are we not getting Travion Henderson on the perimeter like six to eight times in this game?

It didn't really happen. Yeah, like try to crack Demetrius Knight with a receipt. Like do something. You can get these guys, I would think, on the perimeter. And so again, there were, it's little stuff like that where I'm like, it almost felt like they were just trying to do stuff to see if they could do it in this game, rather than playing the best game to actually go win the game in score. like 45 points. I want to be clear about this. The failed push in the fourth quarter

where they kick the field goal for 2313, I support that. Like going up 10 in that spot in the fourth quarter rather than going for it, in that situation, I'm okay with it. But early in the game on those fourth and twos,

that's when I take more issue with the decisions that were made. On the other side of the ball, I mean, I thought the most fun part of this game for the Bengals offense was Mitchell Tinsley. I thought he was really good. I really liked Mitchell Tensley. He is,

He had a really nice preseason this year, but he is truly just like, I like that he is a nice depth piece for this Bengals offense because I think Yosivas has been, he's a little bit more wiry. He's a little bit faster. Like he's kind of that type of depth receiver for them. Whereas he did an incredible catch in this game, by the way. He did. Chavez did an incredible catch on the sideline. They really got some decent ball out of their depth receivers in this game. But like, I like that contrast to Tinsley, who is like, he's kind of a decent route runner. for his size. But the thing with Tinsley is just like if you put the ball near him in traffic, he actually does have really good hands in concentration. He did that a number of times in the preseason. And then he got Christian Gonzalez on a go ball in this game. And then he had a number of other impressive plays. And there was even one play too where not just as a receiver, they inserted him on a run. And he kicked somebody's ass and like move them for like a seven, eight yard gain. I was like, okay, man, if they can get some of these young guys, some of these like depth receivers to give them something useful, that it's pretty fun to watch. Yeah, I think.

this game was a good expression of where some of the cracks with the Patriots still exist and what's going to hold them back, I think, from being like a true contender this year. We talked about this last week when we ended the table. Like, I think there are a lot of reasons to believe in this team. I still think there are enough shortcomings with elements of who they are and also just the personnel that I'm just, there's still a year away from, I think, being one of those teams. The offensive line already, I think just left to right, talent-wise, was going to be a concern against some like real fronts down the stretch.

Now we're going to be without Will Campbell for multiple weeks. Jared Wilson is hurt. So you have a group that probably is middling that is now missing two starters as you move into the back half of the season and get toward the home stretch. I think that's worth pointing out. I think you still see some of the issues with like middle of the field defense when these teams when these guys are playing zone. Like they're just not built that way.

Like the linebackers are like they're thumpers. You have really young safeties. The corners are phenomenal in man. coverage. Phenomenal. But I think in a lot of other scenarios, there are just some imperfections with this defense. And then the other part of it that I think really did show up in this game that I think is worth keeping in mind.

The Patriots run defense has been a strength of theirs this year. But I think a lot of that is the way that they play and the resources they devote to the run. So when you look at just percentages of light boxes this season, the Patriots have the third lowest percentage of light box rates in the NFL against the run this season. the only teams ahead of them are like the usual suspects. It's like the Browns and a couple other people. And I think partially that's a product of playing a lot of man coverage.

And so you can afford to live that way in ways that other teams can't. But when you play against the team like the Bengals where it's going to be more spread out and you're already without Milton Williams, you see some of the issues. And the Bengals could run the ball in this game. The Bengals had multiple gash runs in this game. And so New England this year has the eighth lowest run defense success rate in the NFL out of Lightbox. And so I think that there are just small weaknesses kind of poking holes in a lot of areas of this roster that didn't end up coming back to bite them in this game against a bad Bengals team. But when you play against the better teams in the league down the stretch, I think you are going to notice a little bit more.

Yeah, this is a team where the best players are awesome. Again, the corners are really cool. Christian Barmore is awesome. Whenever Milton Williams is playing, he's incredible. Obviously, Drake May on the other side is awesome. but the worst parts of the roster probably hold you back from being a championship caliber team, which is, again, fine for where this team is at.

And the other thing I want to mention too with the run defense, obviously Milton Williams is out in him being the penetrator that he is, I think would have been really good in this game. But they also, Caius Tonga left fairly early in this game. And he is, to me, they're best just like sit there and eat a double team and take up some space so the linebackers can come and hit. And so the fact that he left this game, I think you started to feel it a little bit down the stretch.

The Bengals, too, also kind of, approach this game in a way that they typically don't. They were under center for about 30% of their snaps, which for a lot of this season, they just haven't been. And so I thought maybe that like caught New England off guard a little bit too. Like they just weren't ready to play a game in that way. So I thought that element of it was pretty interesting as well. We're going to take one more quick break and then come back with a couple of your

voicemails for another edition of Monday morning. Each week, we like to solicit some calls and just some pain, you know, people that are going through it, people that just need a shoulder to cry on, people that need a little bit of an outlet, people that need some perspective. So we did the same thing last night, asked if there were fans that had a tough week 12 that needed to talk it through with somebody. Got a couple of them. Belor, let's hear the first one. Hey guys. Bucks fan here. Just walking my dog after a horrendous prime time loss to what a real contender looks like in the ramps. I think most fans probably expected this to be the case,

even when the bucks are fully healthy, they don't really match up super well with the Rams, but when you're down multiple starters on both sides of the ball, you don't even look like you belong on the same field. I guess my hangover entry is not really about that game. It's more just about kind of existential. Let's assume Baker Mayfield's shoulder is okay. The Panthers schedule is way harder

than the bucks have the rest of the year, so I kind of just feel like it's likely that the bucks will end up back throwing their way through a division title yet again. and getting blown out by whichever of the Rams or Seahawks sends up in the fifth seed. But if that happens, Todd Bull is probably going to stay as the coach. Baker Mayfield's cap hit is guaranteed next year. So it really just feels, I don't know, it's weird. You know, as a Fox fan, I would be told 2013 me.

We'd have made the playoffs several years in a row like this. I'd be thrilled. But it feels kind of empty when there doesn't really seem like there's ever a chance of them actually making a run against the crew talk tears at the conference. Anyway, thank you. I completely understand this as like where you're sitting emotionally as a Bucks fan because it really did seem like at the early part of the season that even as they were banged up, they were playing well, they were winning games. And it's like, all right, is this going to be the year where we kind of kicked down the door and we joined that group of teams that beat the shit out of us last night that the Lions did to them earlier this season? That hasn't happened for a multitude of reasons.

but I don't necessarily feel that much more pessimistic about like the multi-year outlook for this team than I did coming into the season. Like I think there's some things that you're going to have to answer. The first thing to me is what does the receiving core look like in 2026? Chris Godwin has a massive contract that you just gave Chris Godwin. How they end up handling that and whether or not they can recoup some of that, whether I don't know what's going to happen. but he has like a $33 million cap hit next year,

and he's been a zero for you this season. Maybe he gets healthy, and maybe that's the answer. That would be incredible. Mike Evans is a free agent after this year. So making sure you lock down the weapons, I think that is like the only kind of lingering question to me from a personnel perspective outside of what happens with your other outside pass rushing spot next year because Redick is a free agent.

But the fact that Reddick is hurt, Kalaja Cancy is hurt, Mike Evans is hurt, Cody Mock is hurt, Bucky Irving is hurt. I think that it's taking away from how encouraging some of the other elements of the roster have been. Like if you look at what the young D.Bs are giving them, I actually think that's something to get kind of excited about. And so I think from a roster talent perspective overall,

if you can make sure you're figuring out what the past catching spots are going to be and you can make sure that if you move on from Redick, then you're trying to account for that in some way. way, that guy that drafted from like central Arkansas in the fourth round, the Torre's ACL, like giving yourself shots to have more pass rush juice in four man rush situations next year. I actually do think that the promise of like what the bucks could have been this year if healthy only come into more focus next year because some of the young pieces that you have, I think could be even better your Benjamin Morrison's and Jacob Parrishes and all those guys

into next season. So I know that right now it probably fucking sucks to be watching. watching your team play the way that it's playing. But if I were sitting there and I were a Bucks fan, maybe it's Cope, but I don't think I'd be that discouraged about what the future could potentially look like. I'm in the same boat, actually. I think most people, when they think of a contender and like a true contender and a consistent contender, they want offensive play calling head coach and a star quarterback.

And the reality is the Bucks have neither of those things. I still think Boles is a good coach and Baker-Mayfield is a good enough coach or a good enough quarterback to get you into the final four. but I think they're like not in that tier where you feel you're going to do it consistently. But otherwise, again, I think if the roster was healthy, especially on offense, they could have been a top, like get to the championship weekend caliber team. Because I think the defense, that was the issue last year, right? Is the offense was good enough and the defense was not.

This year, I think the defense, for the most part, except for maybe the last couple of weeks when they've had a couple more guys out, has been good enough. The problem is the offense has just been insanely hurt and have missed a lot of their best guys. And so this to me is like, I think the best way to operate in the NFL is you hang around being a 10 and 11 win team. And one year you're just insanely healthy and a little bit lucky. And you win 13 games and you get to championship weekend. And I think the Bucks have built their roster to consistently do that.

And so again, maybe there's some degree of unease that you have of how we have a defensive head coach who's not calling plays. And so the offense is always going to be up and down. And Mayfield's good, but he's not one of those elite guys. And that gives you some amount of unease. but I really think that they've built this roster about as well as they could, and this was just kind of an unfortunate year, which stinks. I agree with that to an extent, but I think there's a reason that I focused a lot of my optimism on the roster construction

and not some of the staff and coaching stuff. Because I think there's absolutely a possibility that you missed your best shot with Liam Cohen last year, that you had a guy who went on a heater for an entire season. You were a top three, top five offense. And even if Grazard is going to be okay in the long term, like he's going to be a passable, acceptable level of offensive play caller, that you had your window with the guy that could make you one of the best offenses in the league. And this has been, it's what we said about them coming into the season.

It's what I said about the lions coming into the season. Like the drop from being the third best offense in the league to the eighth best offense in the league, that's a massive drop-off. That does change your fortune. So many more things need to go right if you don't have that sort of offense that can erase some of those other issues. And I do think that even if the roster gets

in the place that we're talking about, there's a possibility that they just never get to that place from like an offensive architecture, design and play-calling standpoint again. And that gap might be enough to hold them back. Like I want at least acknowledge that that might be a possibility because I don't think it's some like

remote thing. I think that that is like worth concern. I think for me I'm just, even though I think Liam Cohen is a good coach and was a good hire, I think given all the offensive line injuries, I'm like not a hunt. Like he played with one of the best and healthiest offensive lines in the NFL last year. That's a great point. Even if the receivers were healthy. Yes, exactly.

Even if the receivers were banged up, the line was a monster last year in a way it's not right now. Right. And that just gives you more flexibility with what we talked about on one of, the shows maybe a week ago where it was like some of the stuff that indicates health for an offense running the ball screens yaks stuff like this some of that is because the offensive line was healthy and they could just mall people and I think they've just struggled to tap into that a little bit not necessarily because grisard is incompetent and maybe he's just not the level of play caller that cohen was but I do think like when you're taking over the first time and your

offensive line is consistently banged up it's just hard to get into that kind of mode is consistently I think it's a great thing to point out because that is one key difference between what Liam Cohn was working with last year and what Josh Grys was working with this year. I just want to say the tone of that call I really appreciate. Like that's just somebody who I think is interfacing with his football team in a very similar way to how I do. And so I felt that. I recognized myself in the tone of that call. So thank you very much for whoever that was. All right, Bellar, gets get to our last one here.

It's time for more Vikings talk for Derek. Hello, Robert. Hello. I'm Brooklyn checking in here. We built a roster that could withstand the ups and downs of a young quarterback, but it's pretty much just been down so far. The team is old. It's expensive.

The general manager has demonstrated no ability at all to identify talent in the early round. Ownership is way too reasonable and way too measured to make JJ McCarthy our own personal Josh Rosen, which is why I think that it's only appropriate that I say the following. Tyler Murray will see you in Valhalla. Welcome to Minnesota, my chill brother. I hate this team. I think that was one of my favorite calls we've gotten. That was phenomenal.

I'll say this. I don't think ownership is too measured to make J.G. McCarthy into Josh Rosen. I don't think that's the case. Wait, as in you think they are willing to draft another quarter of it or sign one, Murray, whatever next year. You think they are willing to do that? Yes. Okay. They should. I'm at the point where I'm like they should do that. It's over. I realize that that is mean. And again, maybe McCarthy will get another shot on a different team. But I think as far as this build of the Viking goes, they can't keep doing this. The rest of the roster and coaching is too good. We said it last night. In almost any other situation, it'd be crazy to say the guy started seven or eight games. Like we're going to put a period at the end of the sentence of his career in this place.

the Vikings are not like a lot of other teams that are drafting quarterbacks in the first round of the draft. They're just not. And so I think in this case specifically, it's okay to look at it with that lack of patience and that urgency to find an alternative option. I've been thinking about this a lot, like a lot, like all the dynamics involved here. And one of the reasons that I'm saying I don't think ownership is too patient or too measured to move on from him immediately is that I think I think. I think that this is not inside information, by the way. This is me just kind of reading the tea leaves and trying to assess a situation involving people I've had conversations with in the past about football values.

That's what I'll say. I think that Kevin O'Connell is not going to let that happen. I just can't imagine Kevin O'Connell being like, oh yeah, well, like, we'll figure this out. because I think at the end of the day, there have been two kind of competing forces with him specifically. And again, this is just my take on the situation from afar. He had a quote last year on The Rich Eisen's show that I think is a really important insight into how Kevin thinks about the position and how why he feels that way. He has said multiple different times that he thinks organizations fail quarterbacks,

the quarterbacks don't fail organizations. And I think part of that is driven by his own personal experience in the NFL and watching how different teams operate and watching what is put around quarterbacks and watching with the quarterback development process looks like for some of these teams. And so I do think in his bones there is something about how he wants to build an offense in a team where he's trying to do everything he can to set up the quarterback for success. And I think that was the Vikings plan with J.J. McCarthy. But at the end of the day, I also think whether it was Kirk Cousins, whether it was Sam Darnold, that there was a voice in the back of his head that was like, we have a guy I can do this with. Right. Like I even if I want to believe in the architecture argument and the fact that if you put enough around the guy, we can get him there, I've already done it. One, one, a dozen games made the playoffs. I've already done it with these guys.

And so do I really want to explore the unknown? And I think on the other side of it with the front office, there was an inclination to be like, this is the correct formulation of the plan, right? We have the resources now because we're on the rookie quarterback contract. We've never had this before. We've already realized the limitations of path number one, where you have a non-al elite quarterback that you're playing at a market level. Why would we run back into that wall again when we know where it leads to?

us. We should try to explore the other path because you believe this about being able to prop up the quarterback, because you've been able to do this with all these other guys. This is the right way to go. And so I think those like, not necessarily tensions, but those like tiny little bits of ideological friction, both within Kevin O'Connell and between people that are charged with building the organization and the roster, I think it leads to something like this. And I don't think one of them or anybody was necessarily wrong in how they saw this. But as I've sat back and thought more and more about it, like that's kind of my read on the situation overall.

It was theory versus something that is tangible. And like the argument with the architecture and not failing quarterbacks and setting them up to succeed and all that stuff, that is only true to a point of the individual quarterback's quality. Like he can make Kurt Cousins a B minus to a B plus. He can make Sam Darnold a C plus into a B plus because of what he's surrounding him with. But if the individual at quarterback is playing at like an F level, how high can you really bring that? Even if you make the argument of how good the architecture and stuff is right now.

And so again, maybe McCarthy won't be that for the entirety of his career, but he's there right now. And the rest of this roster, they built it to go be on championship weekend. And they are just not in a position right now to lift that player to those heights with where they're at. Yeah, it's a tough situation, man. It is a tough, tough situation. And I, as somebody who I think saw it from their perspective and supported the way that they handled it, because I think that argument between tangible and intangible is correct and the choice between tangible and intangible is correct. But when the tangible thing has demonstrated very real limitations that has held you back, it's harder to buy into the tangible thing. And I think that's ultimately what kind of brought them here.

And so I'm not placing blame on anyone. I supported the choice they made in the moment because I completely understood it. But we are realizing the worst possible outcome of the path that they took. And it's a really shitty place to be for everybody. And it's obviously like if the McCarthy thing had worked out, the upside is obviously much higher just because again, you would just have more flexibility and more money to do other stuff. But I also think that maybe looking back, there was an argument of like, okay, I realized there was a, a lot of limitations with what Sam Darnold was, especially in the last two games

that they played of the season. But there probably was an argument that like, what if Sam Darnold just plays in Kevin O'Connell's system for two or three more years and like gets a little bit more comfortable with it? Like, does that reach you to a spot where you're not quite as limited? And like, I don't know. Maybe that's also wrong. Like maybe Sam Darnold,

this just kind of is who he is as well and they run into the same wall. But like, I just, again, this was such tangible versus theory that they really pushed it to a limit that we haven't really seen before because when other teams have chased what you get out of the rookie contract, it's they already thought the quarterback was good as a rookie and then they go all in and go crazy.

This was the Vikings like kind of just betting and hoping that it was going to work out for them. They pre-spent. They like pre-spent the rookie quarterback contract. And I think that was the plan. I mean that they wanted to do it that way. But when you don't know what the quarterback is, this is the potential downside of it. I honestly think the real answer is, and again, I don't, I'm not hammering them from not doing this.

Sam Donald still costs $33 million a year. Like, Sam Darnal wasn't free this off season. I think they probably wanted to keep Sam Darno the reasonable level. I think the answer probably is, do you give Daniel Jones another $2 million over what he got from the Colts and promise him that he's going to be the starter? That to me actually might be like the Goldilocks answer at the end of this where you are getting some of the financial flexibility that you want

from not paying a guy even in that middle ground of quarterback contracts, but you still have somebody who with has his warts, but is not a complete unknown. Like we're seeing what Daniel Jones can do in very good circumstances this year. Even if he still has limitations, the Colts are the most efficient offense in the NFL. And so it's, ask a Vikings fan right now

if they would rather be the Colts. I think that they would absolutely take that. And he, we've said it before. Daniel Jones, like Sam Darnold, was in the building already. It's not like that was a complete unknown for them either. So I, I know, we've talked a lot about this, but I think one of the reasons for it is people are

freaking out over it, including our listeners that want to talk about it. And two, it's fascinating, just from like a theory and team building and all of that, all those different perspectives. And so I think that's why I've been inclined to keep discussing it because in my off time, I keep thinking about it. I keep thinking about all the layers to it and kind of stumbling into different hallways of the discussion. So before we get out of here today, just wanted to hit very quickly our schedule for the rest of the week. Obviously, it's a holiday week. Wednesday, Building the Beast, it's going to be coming your guys' way,

the same way it always does. On Thursday this week, we're going to have kind of a mini preview of the Thanksgiving and Black Friday games, which, man, me sitting and how I feel about the Black Friday game for the next five days is going to be one hell of an experience. And then on Friday, we're going to have our normal Week 13 preview. It's not going to be as blown out as a typical. Preview Show would be. I think we're just going to pick a handful of games and, you know, run through four or five of them.

So just a slightly different set of programming. So really we're just kind of splitting the preview show into two different mini preview shows. And then Building the Beast is going to be coming your way on the same schedule. It would be. And then we're not going to have like a midweek show. That's going to be replaced by the Thanksgiving preview. So still have shows coming your way. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday this week, just a slightly different flavor to them.

We're going to head out of here, though. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.