The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 12 Recap: Cowboys stun Eagles, Rams crush Bucs, Chiefs get much-needed win, Ravens take over first in AFC North, and more

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

We're through two-thirds of the NFL regular season. Thanksgiving Week is here. The beginning of the home stretch has arrived. And yet, do we even have a definitive Super Bowl favorite? Perhaps it's the Los Angeles Rams, who crushed the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in Week 12. But this thing is wide open and that was on full display leading up to that SNF game. The Dallas Cowboys rallied from a 21-0 hold to beat the Philadelphia Eagles, 24-21. The Kansas City Chiefs came back from 20-9 to get a huge 23-20 win over the Indianapolis Colts. The Baltimore Ravens moved into first place in the AFC North...but they weren't terribly impressive in the process. Meanwhile, the Chicago Bears, Green Bay Packers and Detroit Lions all kept pace with one another in the NFC North, the Seattle Seahawks and New England Patriots took care of business, and the Jacksonville Jaguars won a silly one over the Arizona Cardinals. Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dave Helman break it all down on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)4:00 Bucs-Rams13:41 Colts-Chiefs33:28 Eagles-Cowboys49:00 Steelers-Bears1:03:27 Ravens WTF1:11:30 Jags-Cardinals WTF1:21:54 Vikings WTF1:28:10 Derrik/Gibbs Romantic1:31:02 Robert Romantic...Game will humble you1:34:00ish Dave Romantic...George Pickens1:35:51 What did we learn today?Connect with The Athletic Football ShowX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Hosts: Derrik Klassen and Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Week 12 in the NFL was a doozy. We dug into all of it with me, Derek Classen, and Dave Hellman. Started things off with a Rams blowout win from Sunday night football. Talked about a couple forms that grabbed our attention with the Chiefs staying in the AFC playoff race and the Dallas Cowboys with a massive comeback win over the Eagles. Also chatted a little bears who now sit at 8 and 3.

a couple WTF performances from the Ravens, even though they won, some strange decisions down the stretch in Jags Cardinals. We, much to Derek's chagrin, talked about J.J. McCarthy because Dave wouldn't let us not do it. And then we also hit some things that made us feel romantic about football in week 12. So let's get to that conversation with me, Dave, and Derek right now. Gentlemen, that was one hell of a Sunday in the NFL. Well, I had a moment during the afternoon slate as it became clear that the Cowboys were at least going to keep this thing close and perhaps win it. And there was some weird shit happening in the Jags Cardinals game. And I just kind of had a smile on my face like, tonight's going to be fun.

We're going to have a lot of stuff to dig into tonight. They're not all of this good, but I very much enjoyed week 12 in the NFL calendar, David. When the Sunday night game is that big of a stinker and you know that. it's pretty much over with within 10 minutes of the of the game starting and it was still that good of a day. Yeah. And they haven't all been this great, right? We had a three or four week stretch where it felt a little lackluster. But man, from beginning to end, this was, this was phenomenal. And yeah, it kind of, it crescendoed there in the second half of the late window where the Cowboys were storming back and Jags cards was stupid as hell and just a very,

very fun day. And like for me, other than like, the games that we wanted to be good were like Colts, chiefs that ended up being pretty good. Eagles Cowboys ended up being really good. So the games we wanted to be good other than the Sunday Nighter were pretty good. But then a lot of the other games that weren't supposed to be good, you still had to keep an eye on like Patriots, Bengals was really close, Titan Seahawks stayed close. Giants Lions was almost a catastrophic loss for the Lions.

Like it was even for the games that you thought maybe you could push to the side a little bit, we're still pretty entertaining. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll talk about the Sunday night game very briefly here. Typically the way we do this with the Sunday night games is if the Sunday night game is one of our games of the week in the preview show, we're going to plan on hitting it in the recap show. I don't think we have to spend a ton of time on this one. The Rams continue to look like the best team in the NFL. They did whatever they wanted on offense throughout the entire first half. Like, that's just one of those games.

And I had a sneaking suspicion that it was going to feel like one of those outings where the Rams kind of had Todd Bowles and that defense on a string throughout this entire thing. And that's exactly what it felt like over the first two quarters. And the continued implosion of the Bucks passing game reaches a new low that ends with Baker Mayfield hurting his shoulder. We'll see how long he's out. But the Buc season, it was kind of on the ropes coming into this game, considering how much the Panthers have gained ground.

The Rams seem to be distancing themselves from everybody else in the NFC and potentially in the league. And Derek, that's just kind of how this one felt. the divergent pads of these teams, they kept trekking down those pads over the course of this game. Yeah, I think this to me was two things. Like, I understand the Bucks defense over the last couple of weeks has not played their best ball, especially given over the first, I think like eight weeks of the season, there were like a top 10 unit. Stafford today just pitched like a truly perfect game. I think he started the game 13 of 13. And his first in completion was just because Tykee Smith had an

incredible punch out on a throw into the flat. And so like he was just, he's one of those quarterbacks when he is on his day and just like really activated in the rhythm there's just kind of nothing you can do about it and like Adams was making a number of good catches. Puka was having a good game. Like it's just was kind of one of those days for them. So this almost for the Bucks defense, I was like just burn the tape. And then game script wise, I think because the Bucks passing game has struggled to find itself, you know, Baker's been up and down. They're missing a lot of their best targets. I think when you end up in a 14-0 game script because the RAM score on their opening drive and then you have the weird like KDoughton kind of a

fumble kind of an interception they get ripped out of his hands by the defense. And I think it was Kobe Durant ends up taking that one back. This buck's offense is just not really built to like throw themselves back into the game specifically against the Rams front that if you're in a pure pass script, all of these pass rushers are just going to get to the quarterback very quickly. And then their dbs, I think the one thing that these corners do really, really well is kind of like sit on top of routes and zone coverage and attack and close downhill. And well, if they know they're in pure past game scripts and their defense, their defensive line is going to get home, they can just tee off on that all day. And that's how you get as many of the breakups as they did. I think that's a good way

to kind of lay out, like, overall, the script of how the game went. As soon as Kobe Durant scores that touchdown, my first reaction is, oh, this is over. I mean, as soon as that happens, it felt like it was going to be over. So they're already down 14-0. They get the ball back. And exactly like you're saying, Derek, on the third down, the Rams have like a five-man pressure with a three-man stunt on one side, a two-man stunt on the other side. Kobe Durant gets there. for the sack, ends that drive. They punt the ball back, and then the Rams just walk down on that drive to make a 21-0. Stafford Hicks cannot a mump field on a backside dig, which that's how you know it's that type

of night. It was when those sorts of players are happening. He has a 12 personnel, like, deep out to Devante for a chunk. They have a play-action screen to Colby Parkinson. He checks to a duo insert run for 10 yards, and then he hits the high load of Parkinson for a touchdown. It's 21-0. Immediately.

Like, it just how easy it felt. and how much you could just sense that the Rams had the game in the palm of their hand. If you're not playing a near perfect game against that version of this team, you're going to be in for a very long night. And the Bucks played far from a perfect game. Two thoughts, which I don't want to spoil the overall theme of the show. But I love the synergy of like we did our, we did our production meeting. We huddle and talk about the week when the late window is over heading into Sunday night football. and we're sitting there saying who's actually dominant,

who's actually good in the NFL right now? Like the chiefs are famously fighting to stay above 500. The Colts lost to the chiefs today. The Ravens look really lackluster. We're going to get into that. The Lions went to overtime with a bad Giants team. And then you get to Sunday night football and you're like, oh, right, those guys hadn't played yet.

They're the best team in the NFL. And I'm also glad you shouted out Kobe Turner, Robert, because I have for a minute, felt bad for him because he had that amazing rookie campaign where he was almost rookie of the year. And then verse and Fisk showed up and now Byron Young is having his moment. And I feel like everybody forgot that he's a badass too. And it's like, oh yeah, they have another guy. They've got like five guys.

And Puna Ford. And Poon of Ford is like one of the better like nose tackles in the league. And he's like the fifth most notable player on the Rams front. It really does speak to just how deep. and dynamic that group is overall. For Kobe Turner to have a moment on national TV and be like, oh yeah, he's there too. We spend so much time talking about the other guys. Yeah, they're disgusting.

I said something about this in the moment, but the last note that I want to hit here, is somebody who talks to a lot of people and has just over the years, right? So I've covered the NFL for a little bit over a decade now, and I do my training camp tour every single year. and I've talked to, at this point, hundreds of people, players and coaches about how they see the game and, you know, what they look for with peers at their position. And when you talk to people in the league, coaches and players, the quarterback who comes up the most in a surprising way is always Matthew Stafford. Matthew Stafford is just one of those guys that has unanimous respect from everybody around the NFL. And when you talk to especially receivers, about receivers, the guy that they have. mentioned every single time when they're thinking about their game and how they want to improve

and the nuances of the position is always Devante Adams. And so the fact that these two guys are playing with each other as in a lot of ways, like the purest expression of their positions over the past 10 years, they're not the best players at their positions over those stretches of time. Like, there are aliens that play those positions. There are Jamar Chases and there are Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen's. But when it comes to the purity of the bones, of how you play quarterback and receiver. These two guys, to me, are the purest expressions of those ideas. And so the fact, Derek, that we've got to watch them together this season.

And Stafford is playing as well as he's ever played. And Devante still has enough gas left in the tank to do the type of shit he did tonight. It is beautiful. Like, there is something so wonderful about that synergy. And I thought tonight was a very good example of it. And it's only getting better the more they played together. Like early in the season, it was like, like, okay, they can hit the backside digs, which is like, that's what you brought him in to do.

It was kind of like that was when Odo Beckham was on the team five years ago. That was like, okay, that was the role. But now you're saying like over the past three, four weeks, okay, they can finally connect in the red zone. And some of that is them scheming him up. Some of it is Stafford just threw like a delightful goal line fade to him today, which I think they had tried. The only time it's acceptable, by the way. Yeah. The only time it's acceptable is when 17 is on your team.

Yes. When it's Devante Adams, do whatever you want. He's going to get open and get the space. And Stafford, like, they had tried that for the first like eight weeks of the season and just couldn't find it. And now they're finding that. He hit another ridiculous, not goal line fade, but just a go ball down the right side line to him that, like, that was something that they weren't doing as much early

in the season. Like the fact that it started at like, this is already what we needed Devante Adams to give to the offense as like the backside dig over the middle guy. And now they just keep adding to it. It's like, okay, it's a vertical guy. Now he's our red zone guy. It's just like, it's, they're incredible, man. Like this, this offense only continues to add layers, which is insane because they were

already very good for the first eight weeks of the season. the fade out of 13 personnel and they've been doing it for a month or more now but like it's so unfair and you know the cornerback is out there just like god damn it like they're not going to bring any help because there's freaking nine guys in the box they got three tight ends over there it's just me and one of the best to ever do it and i don't have it in front of me but i know they've run that play like eight times over the last month and a half and i bet devante's got eight touchdowns when they do it's disgusting it's funny i noticed this in the first half and then it played out over the course of the game

the rams used way less 13 personnel in this game percentage wise than they had over previous games this season but the reason for that is that they bypassed the 11 to the 13 because the 13 is what you have to do to get most teams in base defense but you don't have to do that against the bucks like the bucks will play base defense to 12 and so they actually were in 12 personnel on like 18% of their plays today, which was almost double the amount they used 13 personnel, because they didn't have to go all the way to the other side with this Bucks team like they do with a lot of other defenses. So they rained it back in a little bit. Oh, on that combined on those two personnel groupings, 60% success rate out of 12 today for the Rams, 67% success rate out

of 13. Which that's what we said. It's get the linebackers on the field and what's going to happen. And that was the thing, like, that was the thing too is like, this is a team where, again, I know the Bucks defense over the last three weeks has not been that good, but like, this is the one quarterback, not the one quarterback, but the quarterback most likely to if he's going to get you in base defense, just absolutely obliterate you over the middle of the field. And he did. Beller just dropped this in. Sprain's shoulder for Baker. He will have an MRI tomorrow to determine the severity of that. But with the bucks now, and I'm sure we'll dig into this over the course of the week, depending on what happens with the Panthers tomorrow,

this is now going to be a conversation about what happens in the NFC South. And so this is going to be something to monitor, and I'm sure we'll touch on it here as we get a little bit closer toward Thanksgiving. All right, let's get to some of the other stuff that really jumped out to us today. It is time for you have my attention. Gentlemen, you had my curiosity. Now you have my attention. The Indianapolis Colts down 20 to 9, I believe, at one point early in the fourth quarter or late in the third quarter.

So down two scores, their season hanging in the balance. If they had lost that game, we talked about it coming into it. I think they would have like a 45-ish percent chance to make the playoffs, maybe even less per our playoff simulator at the athletic. They storm back. They knock off the Indianapolis Colts 23 to 20. the Kansas City Chiefs and their playoff chances, you once again have my attention. Okay, early in like, okay,

so I know when we were doing the preview show, the question was, what does this Chief's team do really well? And I have jokingly said they stopped the run really well on first down. In this game, Jonathan Taylor had seven carries on first down for 14 yards. He had two successful runs.

He had three times where he was tackled in the best. backfield. The Chiefs did a decent job of getting them into the passing scripts. Let's go, Derek. Pull their receipts over everything. Like when you get a when you can dunk it, dunk it. Well done. It's a small thing, but make Daniel Jones drop back, man. And they did it enough times in this game that it worked out for them. I thought that there are moments against the run were some of the best things that the Chiefs defense did in the entire game. If you look at it even beyond first down, So Jonathan Taylor stuffed five times in this game overall. That is the most run stuffs per next gen that the Colts have had in a single game this year,

tied with our game against the Chargers. But in that game against the Chargers, he had a bunch of explosive runs. And so this was the first game all year where they were getting consistently shut down for negative plays, and they didn't have explosive runs to offset that. Per next gen stats, he was hit in the backfield on 62.5% of his runs, which is the highest in any game for the Colts all year. And then if you look at some of like the individual moments that the Chiefs run defense had, I mean, they came up huge in like crucial moments in the game.

That third and two in overtime where Tranquil just flies downhill for that TFL to force that punt. I mean, that's a game swinging play. And that's not the only time that happened in this game, specifically for Drew Twinkle. He had multiple like big plays in this game. They had a first and goal the Colts did. late in the third quarter with a chance to really put the game away. And Mike Pinell did a great job disrupting that play on the front side, but then Tranquil just comes flying downhill and helps blow it up with Bolton.

And then McDuffie gets a PBU on the next play. That's the one where Chris Jones won instantly on third down and Pittman got called for the OPI. And the Colts are forced to kick a field goal there. And so beyond the first down stuff, I mean, you look at it consistently in this game. The Chiefs run defense came up huge in the most. moments where they really needed to. It's funny to think about because, and I totally understand it, but the narrative and the talking point coming out of this game already, because it was an early game, is Shane Steichen's

play calling, taking the ball out of Jonathan Taylor's hands, I believe, I wrote it down. Jonathan Taylor touched the ball three times from the early fourth quarter until the end of this game. And that's not good, right? Like I think you can find ways to to remedy that. But at the same time, you go back and watch some of these plays and look at the flow of the game. And I can understand Stikens a little bit if he's sitting there thinking, well, these are wasted downs, man. Like these guys are stonewalling us.

And yeah, like the overtime sequence is a great example of that where something that's supposed to be easy money just was not for the Colts down the home stretch of this game. Now, like I said, I think you've got to find a way to put the. ball in JT's hands somehow, even if you don't trust it to trust them to run the ball the traditional way. But it was incredibly impressive the way the chiefs were able to buckle down on that. I think with five minutes left, there were two moments in this game. And one was in the second half and one was in the first half. In the first half, they had the ball at their own 40, the Colts did on a fourth and one. I think deep in the first half, maybe like in the final two minutes.

and they punted the ball away. And that's one of those moments where I'm like, I don't know, I think I'd go for that. Even on your own 40, against this team, I think you got to know that's probably going to come down to the end. And I think you go for that.

And then late in the game, they had that fourth and four after the, it was a really nice sequence again by the Chief's defense. They had a big blitz on third and 10. They got the ball to Jones's hands really quick. And it was fourth and four right before the Chiefs got it back

for the game tying drive. And in that, that moment on fourth and four, that's another one, Derek, where I kind of think I'm going for that. That's where they came up to the line. They got the delay of the game from the Chiefs 45 yard line. I think in that situation, I want to do everything I can to not let them get the ball back with the chance to win the game. And so I don't think they're egregious decisions, but I think twice in this game on fourth down, I probably would have thought a little bit harder about going forward if I were Shane Steichen. The fourth and four is like at that stage in the game, I don't want to give him the ball.

definitely and honestly I think like the fourth and one is more egregious to me because you're the best part of your team other than jonathan taylor specifically is like you've built a really good offensive line that even if they haven't had their best day overall and like we're i think struggling to really get going the way that you wanted that should still be the part of your team that i think you are very comfortable leaning on and so to try to get one yard with the offensive line that you've built with the best back the best performing back in the league like you should probably try that or even like your rPO game for the entirety of this season has been really good. A lot of your boot stuff has been really good. I just, for them to not be fully

confident that they can get one yard, I thought was kind of weird. I think sometimes in these instances, like in our seat, it's very easy to be like, we should not ever give Mahomes chances to get the ball and you should at least try to extend these drives as much as you can. I think sometimes coaches kind of get scared when that's the other guy on the, the guy on the other side of the field and they just lean towards conservative stuff that they might not otherwise. This is not provable at all, but this felt like a game where the mystique of the chiefs was working against the Indianapolis Colts. Like I completely believe that. I hated the fourth and four. There were, there were a few. That was the one I hated the most because the other two were deep enough in,

like on the cold side of the field where it's like, all right, you're kind of, you're handing Mahomes a really easy opportunity if you don't get this. But that was in plus territory. And there were five minutes to play and keep in mind the flow of the game too every single thing the chiefs were doing was slow and methodical like talk about ball control i mean the the shortest chiefs drive of the game was 10 plays and they had multiple like 15 16 play drives so by by punting there and giving them the full field it felt like you're working against yourselves in the idea of like getting the ball back because the chiefs, of course, wound up possessing it until you kick to go to overtime at the very end of the game

after you don't get that third down. If you go for it there and you don't get it, even if you give up points, it's not a guarantee, but I think you're probably giving up points with time to go and drive and either tie or win the game. So there were so many moments like that where they were either too conservative or they outthought themselves.

And how about Shane Steichen taking the ball to start overtime, even though you can't end the game. You can't walk the chiefs off. So why do you take the ball not knowing what you need to win? There were a lot of perplexing decisions made in the second half. And the easiest way to explain it is the chief's effect, the mystique of this team playing at Arrowhead. It's funny that I don't know a ton about like the ins and outs of the analytics behind the decision.

Because in my mind, the conventional wisdom would tell me, if I get the ball second, I know what I need. to do and then you can use all four downs if you need to. But Sam Schwartzstein was tweeting about it during the game, our friend from Amazon, who is obviously incredibly involved in this world and all the situational decision making and the analytics behind these choices. And he said that the analytics actually sort of favor taking the ball first because if you get the third possession, then there's not going to be a fourth possession.

So you would have a chance to, there's like an advantage of having the third possession if you can get a stop on the second one because there won't be a fourth one. I don't totally understand it. But I do think that there are some mathematically, analytically inclined reasons that you might take the ball first that maybe I don't totally grasp. Because at first glance, like at first blush, I 100% agree with you.

Sam went to Stanford, so I trust him. So I went to LSU. That's fair. But I just, when you're in a situation where you're playing Patrick Mahomes and you don't know what you need. And yeah, you don't have the benefit of being able to go forward on fourth down because you have to. That feels like a tough spot to be for me. But I'll defer to the nerds, I guess.

There are a lot of like just a couple other moments from the Chiefs defense that I think are worth pointing out. Because obviously the Colts offense has been a machine for like a huge chunk of this season. Even in games where they've turned the ball over and there's been some sloppiness, they were moving the ball really consistently. They had a 38.8% success rate in this game today against the Chiefs. And we talked about the run plays. I thought there were multiple really nice moments from some of the Chiefs DBs in like huge spots talking about that fourth and four. The second downplay on that sequence late in the fourth quarter, Jaden Hicks just comes

flying down to make a play on like a quick out to Tyler Warren to force that third and 10. Brian Cook had a great player who was punching the bod against Michael Pittman that ended up coming up huge in this game. Jones had multiple really nice moments in this game. So we talked coming in, Derek, that it felt like the Chiefs defense didn't have the sort of calling card we were used to seeing from them. And I thought you did see some of those like heat them up blitzes in huge moments.

They had a big time cover zero on the, I think there was a play after Brian Cook had that punch out. They had the blitz that forced them into that fourth and four. But even if maybe there isn't the same sort of overall menacing DNA in those moments from this team consistently that we're used to seeing, I thought, top to bottom, just player-wise, they came up really big and big spots in this game. And I think part of that, too, was like a tale of two halves situation. They didn't really blitz that much in the first half.

And part of that was because I think the Colts were running the ball slightly better in the first half. They were getting themselves into slightly better game scripts. I think Matt Ryan said on the broadcast, only three of like Daniel Jones is 12. I think dropbacks, they had actually sent pressure. And the second half, you started to see them heat them up a lot. And part of that was they were getting some run stops so they could get into their second and 11s and stuff like that. And I think Daniel Jones just kind of had a tough time seeing it.

And then like you said, these TBs played really well. Roland Wallace actually had a really nice breakup in the in the second half. And then on one of the Colts final drives in regulation, I think it was six minutes to go in the fourth quarter. Nick Bolton and Shamari Connor, if not for friendly firing each other, would have picked off a ball on first and 10. And that was a terrible throw. It was an awful throw from Daniel Jones. Like that was it was not his best day overall, but that was one of his worst plays. and he absolutely should have gotten picked off there.

But I really do think that the Chief's defense, especially after about the first quarter, really stepped up in this way and looked a lot more like the Chief's defense that we've kind of come to expect of Spags. And I know that we had some concern coming into this game a little bit about what the Chief's defense has been. But I do think that this was like a good reminder of Spaggs defenses like by December and January usually start to kind of go on their uptick anyway.

And hopefully for them, this was the start of that uptick into whatever their final form is going to be. I want to be clear. It's not a bad defense. It's just a defense that I didn't really know what to make of them because I think some of the calling cards and hallmarks that we typically ascribe to a chief's defense weren't there for them over the first 10, 11 weeks of the season. Like it just, it was mostly that I didn't know what to make of them and I didn't know how to

pin them down. There are decent players on this unit and they were like an above average group. I just felt like I couldn't get. to handle on them. And that's not necessarily the most important thing in the world. Like, they're still capable of games like this because the players top to bottom. It's still a solid group. And I think that you really felt that today.

That's going to be what I want to watch going forward. And one of my favorite little football things is like when the aging elite player sort of shakes the rust off and is like, yeah, I'm still, I can still be that guy. And Chris Jones today was so impactful. Well, I mean, I think four, four pressures, but the, like, two of those came on the third downs that forced the Colts field goals in the second half. And like when it needed to happen, he was that guy. And that's awesome. And you beat the Colts and kept your season alive.

And, you know, you don't have to scramble quite as badly as if you were coming off a loss going into a Thanksgiving game. But how consistent is that? How often can you summon it? Because it really, it's cliche. But this really did feel like that that heart of a champion trope that people talk about where like the old prize fighter like summoned it for for one more round. But it's only November 23rd. Like you got to do this half a dozen more times if you're going to get where you want to go. And so they did it today and it was awesome.

But how consistently is it showing up here in the home stretch? Would you make it the chiefs offense in this game today, Derek? I thought actually after the first So they ran the ball in the way that they typically have Where it's like very efficient And then you luck into maybe one or two explosives I thought the passing game after Mahomes Throwing the interception on

I think their literal first play on the RPO Which that to me was just an insane play by Lai Toulat too Like him getting in front of that window is just like What a ball player But after that I actually thought Mahomes For the most part was exceptionally accurate today Like I thought he did a really good job of leading his receivers in a way that

I think there were times this year where it didn't feel like he was just driving on the ball and really pinning it to go lead guys out in front of them. But I think like you really saw it towards the end of the game where he pins that one on Rishi Rice where he's backed up in his own end zone and he just fires it right past, I think it was the nickel corner trailing him

and lets Rice like stay in stride and run and get a big explosive. I just thought he was really pinning it on guys today in a way that he had kind of been up and down on a little bit throughout the season. The only play where I thought, like, accuracy-wise, he really messed up was they had Rishi Rice running that like little speed out to the left, the front left pylon on the goal line. He throws it on his back shoulder. That's just not a good ball.

That probably could have been a touchdown. But otherwise, I thought he just played really, really well today. Their passing game, I still think when you play man coverage against this team, they don't have a ton of answers. And I still think that was the case for a good chunk of this game. Mahomes finished 9 of 19 against man coverage. they did a couple, there was a couple nice moments where they had those drop eight looks with multiple guys kind of sitting in zones and then they had that extra linebacker kind of doing that mush rush waiting for him to scramble. He got sacked while trying to like extend to play doing that in this game. And but all of the crossers that they ran eventually just a few of them hit in the second half of the game.

And it was for a couple different reasons. There were a couple moments where guys were just getting dropped in zone coverage, right? where I think one of the big rice ones, there was a couple big rice crossers in this game, but he had at the end of the third quarter, he just gets dropped against zone coverage. Mahomes climbs the pocket, kind of drops it over the linebackers for like 44 yards.

I think that's the one you were referring to, Derek, like out of his own end zone. And then later in the game, there's a, on first and 13, he has that 47-yarder late in the game in the fourth quarter. That was another one where in there in cover for six, the safety in the corner to that side just get run off and there's a ton of space as Moore is trailing him.

And then on the fourth and three crosser to Rice with like 235 left, Traverius Ward's on him in man coverage. And he just falls down, right? He falls down. Which that one's funny too, because Ward had to play earlier in the game that was like an incredible play running with a crosser where they were trying to pick him from the other side with Kelsey running like a crosser to try to pick him. Ward did an incredible job of like bending just under Kelsey.

and then accelerating to go cut that route off to where Mahomes didn't want to throw it and then I think he took a sack on that play. So that was just like, I really do wonder if that is part of the calculus with teams sometimes being scared of playing man coverage against the chiefs. It's like, these guys can run.

And if you mess it up one time and one guy falls, you get an explosive that literally loses you the game. But that's kind of what I was talking about coming into the game. I wanted to see them use these guys trying to stretch the field horizontally more than we usually get, more than we were getting. Because every once in a while, they're going to just be able to outrun people. And the worthy one, I think the worthy one in overtime, that's another play where he just gets

pretty quick separation out of like a condensed bunch on the right side. He gets it against Worthy. They find him on a crosser and it's a monster game. Like these guys, I think that worthy and then worthy in man and then worthy just in general, the speed down the field is less useful than you want it to be. But the horizontal speed can get you some of these explosives. and we know this is the game that Rishit Rice likes to play. And so eventually, against both man and zone coverage,

they popped like three or four of them. And it ended up becoming some of the more impressive and important plays they had all game. The crosser that Derek mentioned out of Mahomes' zone in zone was one of my favorite things that happened in the NFL today. And like y'all outlined it perfectly. But the Colts got hit for one, like you said, Robert, they got hit for one against man and I remember thinking and like I pulled up the dots and I was like, oh, that's that's just smart football like you know, uh, Bynum and, uh, and Kenny Moore and or

Charverius Ward, whoever it was. They went off another direction and you wind up with Zaire Franklin trying to drop and cover that. And I was like, well, that's not going to work. And then the one Derek mentioned out of his own in zone, Kittie Moore had great coverage. It was just a freaking dart. It was just a phenomenal throw. Uh, and, clearly the chiefs haven't done that consistently enough, but when they needed to, that's so much about this game for me was just when they needed to,

the chiefs did the cool thing. It was, I mean, even after all these years and however many times they've done it, still cool to watch. Yeah, that's fourth and three crusher. I mean,

that's obviously the game is on the line there. And after, when Cream Hunt fumbled that ball, in my mind, it's like, think this one's over. Safe space. And the fact that it wasn't.

So, this is a safe space. I know that's not actually true. Plenty of people are going to hear this. But at that moment, did you kind of write it off? Like when that happened... Oh, yeah, I think it was hard not to. When that happened, I was like, damn,

they're really just not built like that this year. They're really not going to do it. And then everything else happened. It was wild. All right, before we move on, we're going to take a quick break. Let's get to our next one here. The Cowboys knock off the Philadelphia Eagles 24 to 21.

the Eagles, you know, still are likely going to win the division, still have a 99% chance of making the playoffs. But we set it coming into it. This is a game that just was a lot more interesting based on how the Philly defense had been playing, how the Cowboys' offense had been playing, the fact that we saw some signs of life from the Cowboys defense after a couple of those moves. They were getting a little bit healthier. And it looked like that was incredibly wrong for the first part of this game as the Cowboys spotted them 21 points to get to start. this thing. And then Dallas climbs all the way back. They knock off the Eagles 24 to 21. The Dallas Cowboys, after that performance today, you guys firmly have my attention. So here's, I'm going to do some run game stuff again because this is kind of a little bit to me

the theme of the day. The fact that the Philadelphia Eagles, who like you said, had a 21 to zero lead at one point in this game, finished the game with 11 running back carries is like, red alert, sound the alarms. The fact that this particular football team cannot close out the game by running the football the way that they want to, I think that is like serious concern for the way that they built this offense. Because I know that early in this game, they hit a couple of really nice places like A.J. Brown, Devontas Smith has the incredible catch down the right side line.

But like, how much of just chucking it up can you really rely on over the course of getting into, obviously, when we get into the postseason and stuff like that? The fact that a team that last year was able to kind of survive some of the up and downs that they had on offense by being able to just choke teams out with the run game, the fact that they didn't even really try that today was deeply concerning to me. On running back runs in this game, the Eagles had a 27.3% success rate per next gen stats. That is their worst game of the season. That is the third worst game that they've had since Saquan arrived last year. and it is a bottom 10 game for the Nick Siriani tenure as the Eagles head coach. And it's a low point compared to even what they've been doing this year.

But I do think, Derek, that this is just a kind of an extension of the struggles they've had to run the ball on their own terms the entire season. And not being able to rely on that as kind of the stabilizing force for this team, that is how, combined with everything else that happened in the second half, something like this can go off the rails a little bit. their two best runs in this game where two quarterback draws for Jalen Hertz, which I'm glad they actually tapped into that a little bit more.

I think when we've seen this offense at their best over the last handful of years, that actually is something that they can go to, but that should not be the only thing that they can go to. And it's again, really concerning, like there were just moments where I think they've struggled all year to kind of move people off the ball.

But then I remember there was like a first and 10 run fairly early in this game where Quinn and Williams just explodes one of the guards and gets into the backfield and they lose like two yards on it. And this is an offense. that doesn't want to be in a lot of second and 12s. And so it was just, it was a very frustrating and like, to me, a team's like personality and identity really does matter. And the fact that they had built this offense to be a team that can run the ball down your

throat and finish games that way and could not do that in a game where they led 21 to zero is just like, this team is not doing the thing that they were built to do. And I so I know there's still a good football team. The defense is awesome. The two receivers can make plays like that. But the fact that they can't. really tap into what their identity is supposed to be. It's concerning for me.

I love this because when I was going back and rewatching the second half and just trying to figure out how did this happen? How did the Eagles offense run into the wall? How did this thing come off the rails? Them just getting beat up up front in the second half of this game, beyond the run game, that was some of the most important stuff that happened. Their opening drive, Cam Juergens just doesn't block Osa Deguizua on a second and seven. On third and seven, Fowler gets a pressure that pushes Fred,

Johnson right back into Jalen. He can't get there with a deep comeback to Devante Smith. On their second drive in the third quarter, Sam Williams gets the corner around Milata, and there's a TT stunt in the middle that prevents Jalen from scrambling. On third and five, Fowler beats Milata inside to disrupt a throw. They have a first and ten in the third quarter where Clowny and Kenny Clark just blow up a run for no gain. And then Fowler draws that illegal use of hands against Fred Johnson to make it a second and 17 and on the next play is the one where Saquan fumbles and he's chased down by Sam Williams.

So I know we've made a million different jokes about the Cowboys Front this year, David, but the Cowboys Front in massive moments against what should be one of the best offensive lines in the league, even without Lane Johnson, I thought they outplayed the Eagles offensive line in the second half of this game. We have a long time to weigh the trades that happened

and like who the long term winner is and whether it was the right move and who came out better. But the Quinn and Williams trade clearly, like it accomplished the objective of fixing the Cowboys front, at least enough to where you're like a playable defense. And that was, it's what we've said the whole first half of the season is like it's the same thing as the Bengals. Just I need you to be functioning bad to mediocre and this team could do something because you're so bad that it negates everything else that's going.

on and that's clearly not the case anymore. And I'm so glad you mentioned OSHA. And I'll be honest, he's always been a good player, but the Cowboys paid Osso Diggizua $80 million in the spring. And I've had several moments over the course of his time where I'm just like, what, like, what's the biggest impact? What's the most memorable moment or play from an $80 million detackle? And I kind of racked my brain at times, but I don't have to anymore is what I was going to say, because OSA was amazing in this game. And lo and behold, you plug a guy like Quinn and Williams into the middle of the line and it just makes everybody look that much better. They were, they were all over the place. They were physical. They were relentless. And I mean, it feels strong to say because of how much equity the

Eagles offensive line has built up. But especially with Lane Johnson not in there, I think that that That's an easy case to make, especially in the second half of this game. Oso Diggizu was involved in a play that I think is just so illustrative of how this went in the second half of the game for both of these teams. On the third down in the final drive after the Cowboys failed on that fourth down in the red zone, the Eagles tried to throw a slant to A.J. Brown. And the whole player in-man coverage, I can't remember who it was, was one of the linebackers, takes away the slant to AJ. and J. Brown. And Jalen doesn't have anywhere else to go with the ball. And OSA eventually gets their pressures at late and finishes off the play. And so that's a play where you're trying to get number one option on a shallow route very quickly as in the rhythm of the play. It's not there.

The entire thing gets blown up. Later in that half, Derek, there is a third and two. And they have C.D. Lamb going in a very quick motion from right to left. He runs a shallow Cross. Dak wants Seedy on the shallow cross. Nolan Smith drops under it and takes it away. Dak moves to Jake Ferguson on the crosser behind it, buys a little bit of time for himself by sliding in the pocket, finds Jake Ferguson for a game swinging play. So very similar moments happening to both of these quarterbacks. And Dak buys enough time and improvises just enough and steps outside of what is on the paper to make a play that ultimately swings the game for the Cowboys. There was like a beautiful kind of mirror image to me with those two moments in the second half.

I'm so glad you frame it that way because to me like Jalen Hertz, I actually thought in the first half he made a couple of nice plays under pressure and like extending and doing all that. I thought in the second half he had terrible responses to pressure. He just kept freezing. And that third and two was a great example where he doesn't really like what he sees from the pocket and also O'Digizua starts to come through. And I think the right side of the pocket was caving in two from Jadavian Clowny. And he just doesn't do anything.

He kind of just stands there and waits to get sacked. And then you have Dak Prescott, on the other hand, who, I don't know, at least half a dozen times in this game was like holding, holding, gets to his third, fourth read and just chucks the shit out of the ball into a dig window or late to Ferguson like that or deep down the field to CD Lamb. Like he just. The turpin play. That chunk played a turpin on the scramble drill at the end of the second half. Yes, dude. Like, Dak today was outside of like one or two plays. He was gaming, dude.

He threw an in zone interstate. perception and still had that good of a game. He was, I mean, he usually does, he usually balls out against the Eagles. And yeah, add that one to the list. So the Turpin play, that crosser to Ferguson. And then, but other than that, like, those are kind of like quieter moments where it's good quarterback play. It's either within the rhythm of the play or just kind of extending a little bit.

To me, the most, the biggest, the most important moments of the day for the Cowboys offense in this game are the receiver. being monsters. Those two guys. And unfortunately for the Eagles, Adory Jackson gets banged up at some point in this game. They bring in Michael Carter.

They move Cooper DeGine outside. And then Cooper DeGine gets worked on two hugely explosive plays. One by CD Lamb. That play that C.D. Lamb makes down the right sideline, the adjustment he makes to that ball to come back forward and make that play is insane. And then obviously, you have the 43-yard bomb on the corner. route to George Pickens, and that's another play where Cooper de Gene is an outside corner there. He gets turned around.

Dak lays it up and his guy goes and makes a ridiculous play. And so it's just really nice that every once in a while, it kind of reminds me of the Devante Smith play that he made in this game. I was going to say there were three. Jack has those two guys that he can do the same thing that J.O. and Hertz is able to do with the players, the receivers he's had for these last couple years must be nice. Must be nice for Dak to finally be living this life a little bit. it speaks to how good like it speaks to what i expect from cd lamb that he made that play he made

an incredible play and i'm still just like oh my god cd get it together dude is three drops today he dropped an explosive in the first half he drops uh would be touchdown on third down when the cowboys went for it down in the low red zone they decide not to kick the field goal and they don't get it obviously they you don't have to worry about that if cd just hangs on to the ball and even in a daylight on a day like that where I'm like, oh, CD, come on, dude. He still made a play like that and finishes with 75 yards on the day. Like if that is his brain fart game, you're cooking with some gas. But yeah, I mean, George Pickens is, we did this after the Raiders game, Robert,

so we don't have to spend too much time on it. But like, what a decision by the Cowboys to go get that guy. I was in a moment after that game. I think a lot of people, the first place their minds went where, okay, how much money is George Pickens going to make this off season? And I still had like a little kernel of doubt in the back of my head where it was like, okay, do you want to be the team that pays George Pickens 30 million dollars? Do you want to be that team? I do. And now I'm like, ah, I don't care. Like, whatever the downside risk is of giving George Pickens like $150 million, I think I'm willing to take on that

downside risk if we know this is a possibility. Well, let's just let's put it out there, too. like the cowboys need to pay this guy like it doesn't need to be another team trying to figure out if this is a good idea you already know it can work he he matches perfectly with your quarterback who's under contract the quarterback loves him that he clearly works in the offense and if there's one market and one owner and one team that can make all this work it's got to be dallas and whether you want to tag him and do your usual stupid cowboy games. I don't really care, but you can't. Why would you let this guy walk? That's insanity. I almost never, ever want to pick this as an option because I think that for the most part, it's not a optimized use of resources to tag somebody in this situation. This is one of them

where I'm like, I think I might think about it. Because the downside risk, again, just in terms of how he's disappeared in some of these seasons and the personality concerns and all of that stuff. I don't think we ignore that. And so tagging him and saying, you know what, let's see if you can do it again. I actually don't hate that as an option. And part of the problem is when you're tagging somebody, you can't do any funniness with the cap. So if you're going to tag him, it's going to be what, $24 million. That $24 million hits your cap. From a cash perspective, though, if you wanted to restructure DAC and CD, you do have some flexibility with how you can manipulate the cap. this year specifically.

And if you want to use some of the cash to do that and save some of it with the Pickens thing, I'm not totally opposed to taking that route if you're Dallas, even if in a lot of other situations, that's not what I would typically choose to do. We can sort this out when the season's over, but he needs to be under contract with the Cowboys when the league year opens. If that's a tag, fine. But long term is fine with me too. Either way, we'll sort that out in March.

but like patting yourself on the back for getting a comp pick when he signs with Carolina. No, that can't happen. It can't happen after what we've seen so far. We've talked about it after the Raider game. There is a real window for this team with DAC being able to play this way with this offensive infrastructure. And I think you have to do everything you can within reason to maximize whatever the next two or three seasons look like.

And I don't think you could look yourself in the face, look yourself in the mirror. and say George Pickin should not be a part of that plan. I do. I know we have to move on, but I'd like, we, I do just want to emphasize the degree to which the Cowboys shit the bed for the first like 25 minutes of this game. Like between the penalties,

the turnovers, DAC throws an end zone interception. Cavante Turpin has a fumble. Why Cavante Turpin is getting running back carries is beyond me anyway. They're roughing the, punter penalty. It was unbelievable the degree to which, and the Eagles marched down the field like their first three times with the ball.

Like the degree to which the entire roster looked like they forgot there was a game. And then you fast forward to the end. Remarkable transformation. Just absolutely incredible. We talked about this coming into the game. I don't think all the craziness and all the drama and all the whispers, getting louder than Whispers, I don't think that's going to get turned down here over the next five or so days before the Eagles play on Black Friday. Let's get to our next one here.

The team the Eagles are playing on Black Friday. The Chicago Bears beat the Pittsburgh Steelers 31 to 28. The Bears are now 8 and 3 is their best record since 2018. Per the athletics playoff simulator and Austin Mock, the bears now have a 55% chance to make the playoffs. So they have a better than 50-50 chance to be a playoff team. team per the athletics numbers. I want to be very clear about this. It's not my idea to include this in the show.

Everyone who's going to accuse me of just trying to shoehorn bears conversations in all the time. You should know better by now. I was pushed to this point. But it is happening nonetheless. Chicago Bears, the 8 and 3 potential playoff bound Chicago Bears. You guys have our attention. I will say that I was the one that mostly pushed them in to be here.

And this was my framing for this game. It's not necessarily that I think the bears are a great team. or that this win in particular even says that much about the quality of this Chicago Bears team. But I was watching it and obviously Caleb Williams has the horrendous strip sack touchdown in his own end zone that looks funny and is terrible on like 8,000 different levels. In any other Bears season in my lifetime, if the quarterback does that, the Bears lose the football game. The fact that this team is coached well enough and got enough turnovers on defense and Caleb made

enough throws throughout the rest of the game, the run game got going at certain points. The fact that they found a way to win after that, that's new for the Bears. And I thought that that was kind of cool. I don't disagree with that. And I had a very similar response when it was happening. I don't think that waves away. No. The rest of the game looked like in some ways, and we can talk about that.

But that play happens. And I think it was honestly like the next drive. They came out on the next drive after that happened. And he had, I guess it wasn't on the next drive. I guess on the next drive, they had a three and out. But then the drive after that, they came out and had like a really impressive touchdown drive. It was a 70-yard touchdown drive. He had a bunch of completions.

They were moving the ball well. It finishes off with like a 12-yard touchdown to Colson Loveland. And it was on that drive where I was just kind of like, the fact that they're coming back from some of these things and don't look that rattled by them. They deserve some credit for that at the very least. Like the fact that they've been able to bounce back enough times in these games and have these late game moments. I don't think that's the most important thing. I think you want to be better before you're having to put yourself in those situations. But I do think that they deserve some credit for that.

And I'm with you, Derek, and that it did feel different than it has felt for a very long time when they got behind the eight ball like that. Yeah. And that was just, I don't know if that's like, I think a lot of that to me was just like Ben Johnson is clearly a good coach. And there's just some. I think that's undeniable at this point. there is some factor of him being able to stabilize these guys a little bit. And like, listen, Caleb is going to have those moments, at least for the next couple of years, where he just does something incredibly dumb holding onto the ball and he just has those.

But again, I think last year, if that happened, he probably would have unraveled a little bit. And so the fact that already in year two that, like, they've been able to find some stability in the offense, help him out by running the ball fairly well in certain points. They had a couple of trick plays, like endarounds that worked out for them. Like, they just, the fact that they were able to take a breath in a way that I just do not. not think that previous versions of this team ever would have been able to do. I really did think was cool. And if we're going to talk about that drive really quickly,

Colston Loveland is a freak show, dude. He's so good. He's so good. Him cutting across the DV's face there and just like so easily boxing him out. Like that guy is just, he's going to be really, really damn good at this league. He's awesome.

It was one of my other responses while watching the game today and like some of the moments that Luther Burden had and just like watching Colston Loveland. And like, you know, Rome had, it wasn't a great game for Momodunze, but it was one of those things where I'm watching that Colston Leveland Drive and I was like, the kids are all right. Like I am really excited about like the young nucleus of skill position talent that they have because they've got some dudes who can really fucking play. And that is another thing that feels a little bit different than it has felt for a very long time.

Play the babies. Seriously. Like they're all so exciting. Menong guys obviously had an incredible year. Burden just looks different. with the ball in his hands, like even by NFL standards. I was just going to add to y'all's point. Like, yes, the resiliency and the bouncing back, but also,

like this sounds weird to say, but the opportunistic Chicago Bears, like you get it, you go on a touchdown drive after the early Steelers interception, touchdown after the turnover on downs at like midway through the second quarter, then after the Montez Sweat, Strip Sack touchdown drive. like to make like to really make the most of all of your chances when they're presented to you. Like I don't know if the Bears are a quote unquote good team, but in the in the muddy middle of the NFL, just make the most of the opportunities that you get in a game and you're going to win a lot of games, clearly.

This is the Bears second four game win streak this season. They hadn't had one of those at all since 2018. That seems, I mean, it doesn't seem impossible because I've watched the Bears. Bears, but it's still wild to think about. It was a strange game because obviously the Nashon right interception that he has early on, like you mentioned. He's doing that once a week. It's a very weird kind of strange experience watching the Bears defense because most of the

time, they're bad 95% of the time. And then they, I said this on Twitter during the game, they're bad most of the time. And then they're going to make the most breathtaking play on the ball you've ever seen a DB make once a game. And that's exactly what happened again. that Nashon right pick. And so when you watch the rhythm of the game over the most of the first half and just the

way that the Steelers are moving the ball, the fact that they scored a 55-yard touchdown on a fake tush push, it just felt like a day where the Bears' offense was going to have to be perfect. And they were not perfect in the first half of this game. That Caleb Williams' Strip sack touchdown, that's the low light. He was not good in the first half of this game. He had four or five different misses that it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, you can't wave them away.

There are plays and throws he missed in this game. He sails a throw for Luther Burden off play action halfway through the second quarter. He misses Rome on an inbreaker at one point. He darts a throw after extending one to Luther Burden in the first half. He misses DJ Moore and an inbreaker on their second drive. Like the inaccuracy is it's something that needs to be cleaned up if he is going to reach anything even close to his ceiling. And it was a significant problem early in this game.

And so the offense was not perfect. But in the second half, the defense had its share of moments in the second half of this game. A defense without its three starting linebackers, without its two best corners. You lose Tyreek Stevenson at some point in this game. You lose one of the other. Ruben Hippolyte goes down at some point in this game. And the defense still had like three or four stops in the second half. I know it's Mason Rudolph, but we're talking about like a group of guys that are mostly special teamers coming up big in the second half.

And there is plenty of them. Nayshawn Wright had a great play down the field on a third and ten in the second half after the drive after the first sweat sack, which they got to cover two and he had to kind hold onto it a little bit. Sweat gets the sack on the tight end. The strip sack that sweat had, go back and watch the play at some point. Rudolph is trying to get to his checkdown in the left flat. Andrew Billings peels off with the checkdown.

And like that little flash of color is the reason that. that he doesn't throw the check down, and that's why Swet gets the strip sack. And then later in the third quarter, about halfway through the third quarter, they had a second and two the Steelers did. Briskers walked down into the box. He does a great job of pushing the ball back inside.

And then I'm going to not pronounce his name correctly, but I'm going to try. It's like the fourth string linebacker. Amon Ogbamemga has a ridiculous play where he cleans it up for no gain. and then on the next play, DeMarco Jackson, who is wearing the green dot in this game, despite never having played for this defense, does a fantastic job of chasing the checkdown down in the flat with Gainwell, and he forces the punt.

And so I really did think this was going to be a game where they were just not going to be able to get a single stop. And in the second half, they got three or four of them with a mash unit defense. And it was pretty cool to watch. DeMarco Jackson wore the green dot in this game. That's, yes. that's how I know. Who else would have? All three linebackers were out. It's the type of thing we're like going in, I knew the linebackers were all hurt.

But you don't think about it practically until you hear that DeMarco Jackson is wearing the green dot. And you're like, yeah, that's, that's a tough place to be. I honestly thought other than especially in the first half, like I think that the Steelers were kind of killing them with like perimeter stuff. Like some screens, some jet stuff like all that. Other than that, I actually thought the Bears defense played like reasonably well. And again, I know again, some of this is. like against Mason Rudolph, whatever, and the Steelers offense is not super talented, especially a receiver outside of DK Matt Calf to begin with.

But I really did think outside of like, hey, we took some bad angles to the perimeter. And then obviously the funny fake tush push thing that goes off. Otherwise, I thought they actually played like about as well as they could have. They played pretty well. Okay. So sorry, Robert, but like let's just spin it forward here. Assuming you get a little bit of, little bit of reinforcements in the health department. you think these guys can frustrate a frustrating Eagles offense? I'm already, I'm already ready for

Black Friday. They need to be much healthier than they are right now. Like, I think if they get two of the linebackers back and they get J.1 Johnson and Coward Gordon back and let's say Tyreek Stevenson can play in that game, then I'll start to get interested in it. I think the, the bigger picture takeaway from me in this game is kind of what Derek was talking about. Ben Johnson has done a really, really, really good job. And I think that there have been some stretches play calling wise that left a little bit to be desired. I think the Vikings game was an example of this. Today was a game where he had the entire Steelers defensive staff, whether it's Terrell Austin, Mike Tomlin, whoever you want to throw in there. He had them in like the walls of Jericho for four quarters in this game whenever they wanted to

throw the ball. The amount of guys running wide open this entire game. And that's why I think there's probably going to be a disconnect between Caleb's final stat line and the way that I think he played for a chunk of this game. It was very easy for the quarterback for a huge portion of this football game. Go watch the four-verts touchdown where they're running cover three and you have two guys running wide open and he throws it to DJ Moore. I mean, the fact that DJ Moore, I think had a taunting penalty on that drive that sets them back and it just didn't matter because he's running wide open on the scene for a touchdown. The amount of wide open receivers in this game and just how dialed in Ben Johnson was throughout the entire day, I think really does speak to what.

he can do when you're making it easy on him. And we talked about it coming into it. The Steelers at times can give you the answers to the test before it begins. And if you're going to do that to a guy like Ben Johnson, even if the quarterback is having an off day, this team can still put up 30 on you the exact way that they did. I need the bears to keep winning because I need, I want a confrontation between Roberts' very, like, rational, minute, boring hopes and dreams of like, Oh, the, the mechanical process and like the coaching and and Caleb's working on his footwork and his consistency.

And like, that's all great and it matters. But if the Bears win Friday, they've got like a 75% chance of going to the playoffs according to our playoff predictors. So that's all fun, Robert. But eventually you might have to confront the idea that the bears are going to be a meaningful piece of the NFC playoff picture. the two things I've already said that I'm in on the quarterback and I think that he has a chance to be good. And now you're combining that with a play caller. The fact that the bears have an offensive play caller who can win them games and make it easy on the talent and that the talent is really good. All of those things converging, I'm excited about that.

I'm undeniably excited about that. So there can be moments and elements of each game that are frustrating. I think Caleb Williams' performance today was one of those things. but there's enough on the other side of the ledger that can get me pretty juiced. And so I think that's kind of where I am right now is that in any given game, in terms of the offense, whether it's the play calling and the plan, the skill position talent and the quarterback, if two of those things are humming any individual game, I'm probably going to be having a decent time.

And two of those things were humming in this game. I made this joke in our show chat on Sunday afternoon. The 2025 bears remind me of the 2020. Vikings in the sense that like the bears are eight and three with a negative point differential right now. The only other teams that can say that are in the NFC South just to give you some context. But what gave you so much pause about the 2022 Vikings is you're like, okay, what does this really mean when the Eagles and the 49ers are waiting for you at the end of the road?

Obviously the Rams are very good. But other than that, it feels a hell of a lot more wide open. I think that there's more reason for optimism from a mediocre team in these playoffs. At least that's how it feels right now. I also think the biggest difference with that is the minute the 22 Vikings had a 33-year-old, 34-year-old Kirk Cousins as their quarterback. Like that was the end point of something, or at least approaching the end. This hopefully is the first step in what is a multi-year process.

And the first glimpse that we've gotten of that initial step, I think, have been really encouraging on a bunch of different levels. That is a good differentiator, yeah. All right, before we move on, we're going to take one more quick break. What the fuck? Typically, we reserve this space for teams that lost, but there weren't enough kind of crazy upsets today

to fill it that way. And even if there were, I wanted to hit on this performance. So the Ravens beat the Jets 23 to 10 today. The Ravens in this game, offensively per next gen stats, had a 28.6% success rate. that is the worst mark they've had in a game since Lamar Jackson became the quarterback of the Ravens.

Like that is how ugly and... It's worse than the Miami game? Believe so. Wow. 28.6%. They had a 22.2% rushing success rate per next gen stats. That is, it was a disjointed game. It was an ugly game on offense.

And just because they managed to come back and not come back, but just because they managed to beat the Jets, I don't think we should wave away this performance because we were talking about, the Ravens as part of the table discussion earlier this week. We kept them there because the thought is the defense is kind of coming together, even though Kyle Hammonds got banged up a couple different times in this game. And the offense, as Lamar Jackson gets healthy, they will probably find a gear that makes

them scary. I'm still waiting for them to do that. And I know there are reasonable explanations as to why it hasn't happened. But I watch a game like today, Derek, and I'm starting to look at my watch, wondering when this is actually going to come together. So Baltimore Ravens, despite the win today, despite the, despite the fact that you now have really kind of taken control of the AFC South, what the fuck is going on? This to me was a very good snapshot.

And I think this has been true the last handful of weeks of how much of the burden is on Lamar Jackson being like a superstar level player. He's clearly not that right now. Like he is clearly not healthy and not as explosive as I think that he used to be. And like Lamar Jackson being at, let's call it 80%, can still sometimes make a guy miss in the pocket and make a really nice play. He did it a number of times in this game. But Lamar Jackson at 80% is not like the complete load-bearing offensive player

that he is at 100% where he can just make you right on every single snap. I just don't think he's doing that right now. I also think there are just like weird moments where he's not fully confident in the offense. Like early in this game, they have a first and 23. They're a little bit back. It's the first quarter with two minutes and 30 seconds left. It's a third and three and they're a little bit backed up. Lamar Jackson has DeAndre Hopkins

settling in between a couple of zone defenders on a little shallow route at the sticks and he just never gets to it and doesn't throw it, ends up bailing to his right, and chucking it down the field to Isaiah likely. He's just doing a little bit more of that now where he feels like he has to be the superhero but isn't fully healthy enough

to actually do all of that stuff. So I think he's in a weird spot there. And then honestly, the most frustrating part of this game to me where I think that you can feel the Ravens' offense is just not comfortable, even from a play calling perspective, The first drive of the game, they get into third and like one and a half, and they shift Mark Andrews in to run the sneak. If you're a good, like if you're last year's Ravens team and you have third and one and a half, you don't have to get into this bullshit little sneak thing.

Like you run a play and you run Derek Henry through someone's face. Like the fact that they don't feel comfortable doing that, that almost like I was talking about with the Eagles a little bit earlier, the fact that this is supposed to be your team identity and you've a little bit struggled to tap into it the way that you did last year. It's pretty concerning to me. And if Lamar's not going to be 100%, I'm struggling to find where the top gear is for this team, for this offense. Didn't they not get it and then go forward on that same drive? Yes, they didn't get it and then had to do it again,

which like cool that you converted it. But this version of the Ravens to me should not be, we have to sneak twice from a third and one and a half to get it. This should be like we have third in one, we can pull a guard and kick someone's ass. Like that is who the Ravens are supposed to be. I was curious. So I looked this up.

today was Lamar's sixth worst rush EPA over the last four seasons. And of the five games that were worse, he lost fumbles in four of those. So like without catastrophic turnover play, this is about as bad as we've seen from Lamar as a runner, which we all know he can take over a game without running the ball. But that athleticism, even when he's not like running past the line of scrimmage is just, so valuable, his evasiveness, the way he can extend plays. And he just doesn't look like that guy right now. And we were talking about this before the show, too. It's tempting to be like, well, he'll get healthier. He'll round into better form. But if you're playing every six days for the rest of the year,

is that true? Like, can that happen? And it's a very frustrating place to be sandwiched between the Ravens-looking, mediocre, wanting to be fair to everybody else in the AFC, because we have the Ravens sitting at our contender table, and maybe they shouldn't be. But then you look at the rest of their schedule, and like there are some tough games up front for them, but they're officially leading the division, like Robert said, and a lot of what's left looks manageable. And so I don't know what to do. Like, I feel dumb waiting, but I do still think there's a good reason to wait, and I'm just annoyed. They have an 89% chance to make the playoffs.

Exactly. For the playoff simulator. And so the idea that Lamar Jackson and this team with the gear that we've seen them have in the past is going to be in the playoffs, that's probably enough for me to not feel bad about them sitting there. But I am getting a little bit impatient. And I know that a huge chunk of this is Lamar's health. But Lamar's health doesn't have anything to do with the running back runs that this team can no longer find any sort of efficiency on.

Like, I just think overall there's a disjointed feel. to the offense beyond what he is not giving them as a play extender as a runner, all of that kind of stuff. That play that you mentioned, Derek, though, one where he doesn't throw the ball to DeAndre Hopkins and he tries to extend and throws the ball down the field to Exeia likely. I think that you probably can fit that ball into Hopkins there, but they're running mesh on that play on third and three, and the Jets break out into cover too, and there's nowhere to quickly go with the ball.

And that happened three different times in this game where they tried to. to run mesh on third down. The Jets played zone and they had no answers against it. Like the best moments that the Ravens had in this game throwing the ball, they were only like three or four of them that I think were objectively like that's what you want to see from them. Almost all of them were like huge chunks off play action. They had one from the pistol out of 21 personnel to Zay on their fourth drive.

They had the big corner route to DeVontes Walker where they moved the pocket again. like anything that is just in rhythm like drop back pass game right now, they just don't seem to have a feel for what they want to be doing in a lot of these situations. And I think some of that is Lamar's health. But I also think some of that is just a lack of, there are moments last year where this offense at its best. It just felt like Todd Mocka could see the future.

It just felt like he was in the zone so consistently. And it feels like the opposite of that right now where they're really scrambling for answers in a way I'm just not used to. to seeing with this team. And I think it's not just that like Manken is struggling it a little bit. Like I think even purely from the pocket, Lamar is having moments where he's just not playing as well. Like on.

Absolutely. He missed multiple throws in this game. There's a second and 10 on the drive after that we were talking about with Hopkins. You know, maybe he could have hit him, uh, on mesh or whatever. On the next drive, it's second and 10. And he just like gator arm throws a ball to Isaiah likely in the flat and just misses. And that's like not a throw that Lamar has ever missed over the last two years. And so there's just like.

more weird moments of inconsistency from him there. And then again, I think he's just holding on to the, like, he's always been a guy who's held onto the ball, but I think that's never been a problem when you're the best athlete on the field. And so now that he's not, I think you're feeling the fact that he can't just like paper over some of the lack of like, this team still doesn't really have like a star receiver or a guy that you can just throw the ball to in contested areas. And I think that you're feeling some of that when he's not able to be the guy that

builds them out of stuff. Let's get to our next one here. And this entire game was fun. I don't necessarily want to destroy either of the teams that participated in it. It's kind of in this section because we were full of stuff and you have my attention. And there was just a lot of weirdness down the, when it came to the decision making late in this game. So the way I'll frame this is the decisions made in the fourth quarter and overtime in the game between the Jags and the Cardinals. What the fuck?

Who do you want to start with here? Like which team? Because I feel like what you think was more egregious? What do you think was the most egregious decision made down the stretch in this? game. That's a great call because like part of me is like Trevor, Trevor trying to throw the interception past where he was trying to throw like a stop route to Austin Trammel, I think, on the numbers and tries to fit it past boot of Baker.

That's a terrible decision. Them, I think on their fourth and one later in the game, calling like a boot into the boundary was a little bit of like that. That was the one for me. Yeah, I did not love that play call. Fourth and one taking away half of the field on purpose. And I mean, they had shorter reads and they both were well covered up by the Cardinals. But fourth and one on the move and your best bet is, you know, whatever it was, 15, 20 yards

downfield. I did not enjoy that play call. I think I hated that more than Jonathan Gannon going for it on fourth and long. We talked about this in the pre-show meeting. I'm willing to have this conversation. the fourth and 12 that Jonathan Gannon goes for late in the game. There's 206 left. My assumption is if you punt that ball, you do not get the two-minute warning.

So let's say that play ends with like 158 left. So you then have three timeouts, they have the ball. Next Gen had that as a toss-up going forward on that fourth and 12. There was a very similar moment in the Steelers Bears game, where the Steelers punted it on fourth and nine without the two-minute warning, and they had three timeouts. I know Derek doesn't feel this way. I'm okay with going forward in that situation.

Because I think that if you put the ball away there after the two-minute warning, the other team gets a first down, the game is over, essentially. So I think that the chance to just try to maintain possession there, even if you're going to lose the game in that moment, if you punt the ball away, you're probably going to lose the game anyway. And so I actually do think that going forward on some of those four downs, even if it ends the game quicker most of the time, didn't hear. I do think that there's some justification for it because there's a, there's a very

good chance and a decent chance in that situation where if you punted away, you're never going to see it again anyway. This is going to be bad for content, but upon rewatching it, I think I agree, actually. I was kind of fine with it after you're watching it. I know. I'll, I'll argue. I think I just, bullshit. I had just a very visceral reaction to seeing fourth and 12 and a free rusher in Jacoby's face immediately. I was like, that just that seems illegal. You shouldn't do that. It is a It's a real reaction because the idea of going forward on fourth and 12 and the downside of that, it makes you feel gross. But at the same time, it's like if you put the ball away in that situation, you're giving the game away anyway. So even if it's, it feels worse to put yourself in that scenario, it's not, I don't think it's any worse than giving the other team the ball back with less than two minutes left when you're losing the football game.

Okay, a couple things. And I already said it, but I'll say it again. Like I went to an SEC school. I can barely tip without need. a calculator. Like, I'll defer, I'll defer to the people that do this stuff for a living. I respect them. I don't want to be too much of like a grumpy old man yelling at clouds. But Robert, the Steelers, you just said it. They did it. They did it today. They did the same thing. And it worked. And just because it worked doesn't mean it's the right choice. Here's, this is why I think it is the right choice. A, first of all, fourth and 12. And I know Jacoby actually did make a couple plays with his feet today, but like fourth and 12 with a statue-esque quarterback, recipe for disaster. Part two, the vast majority of teams are going to play it conservatively in that situation where like all

you got to do is get a first down. You're probably going to see some vanilla ass play calling. You don't want to put the ball in the air and risk not making the other team burn their timeouts. And most importantly, Trevor was doing dumb shit all day. Trevor was trying to give the game away. So how do you know that Trevor's not going to do something crazy with the game on the line? Like maybe they do call a pass. And Trevor's like, I got to make this happen. If we get the first down, we ice this thing. And then he's throwing a ball.

He shouldn't be throwing. I think there's a lot of reasons why I think it makes sense to go for it, even if the math doesn't or excuse me, why it makes a lot of sense to punt it, even if the math doesn't necessarily agree with me. I don't think it disagrees with you. I think it's like truly a toss-up in those moments. Yeah, you can make either case. I think you can go either way.

And that's why if they had punted it, I don't think it's some terrible decision, but I also don't think going forward is a terrible decision. Like I get, I do see it as a, which way would you rather lose sort of thing. And I think I'd rather lose taking the swing on fourth and 12, rather than giving the team the other,

gave the other team the ball and never seeing it again. When Tom one punted on fourth and nine, I was celebrating. Like I think on that situation, I, that's also, they've been talking about gut feelings. What do you want the opponent to do?

When he punted in that moment, I was happy because I felt like the Bears could get a first down and end the game. Because you trust your offense. Where were the Jags at given the day? They actually had a very high passing success rate, but they, again, like Dave was saying, Trevor was trying to give the ball away

and successfully did that multiple times this game. It is a good thing to point out. It is a good thing to point out. I would have, if I'm a if I'm a Cardinals, excuse me, a Jags fan, I'm pumped to see them go for it because I'm like fourth and 12. They're not getting this. And then we can put the game away, which ironically, they did not. Like only the Jags could have been gifted this situation and not gotten anything out of it, by the way.

But no, if it was fourth and five or even fourth and sixth, I'm not even talking about this with you. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't think twice about it. Like, yeah, you should probably go for it. But fourth and 12 with a non. special physically quarterback, like a guy, like, you know, Jacoby Brissette is not healthy Lamar Jackson. Like if you, if you're trying to pick up a fourth and 12 without a guy like that,

I'm a little, I'm a little nervous. I think I would have punted. I guess so. I mean, that chunk played of Michael Wilson did happen earlier in the, like at the end of regulation. I mean, like how many times.

But I'm just, I'm just saying it's like I think I'm, I'm giving more grace to the teams going for it on fourth and 10 in that situation. The last thing I want to say about this game, This was, there's never been a more Trevor Lawrence game that I've ever seen in my entire life. He has the interception that Walter Nolan scores a touchdown on. He throws multiple, like several other, how many picks did he throw in this game?

Three. The first one you're referencing was a strip sack. So that was a fumble. Okay. So it's a fumble return for a touchdown. He throws three interception. One is tips down in the red zone. Fine.

Two of them are directly two underneath defenders that he. takes to the ball on the one where Akeem Davis Gather and Bouda Baker picked that off. And then he also has like four or five like fuck you throws over the course of this game. Yep. The cover zero backing up throw he has for the touchdown. The

touchdown he has to Parker Washington. The rail route wheel to Parker Washington up the right sideline late in the game. Like I just don't know what to make of him. Like I can completely understand this is very similar to the coin flip element of the fourth and 12. I can

totally understand how somebody could watch that game and be like, this guy will never win anything. I cannot believe that there are people who are believing him and he makes $50 million. And I also completely understand how there are people like Derek who will never, ever, ever sell their stock because he is capable of those five plays. I know it's bad for me. I know it's unhealthy. And I know it's not going to lead to anything good at the end of the road.

But I just can't quit him, man. Like the throat of Parker Washington, he makes an awesome step up in the pocket past Josh Sweat, who is like flying off the right side. too. Like it's just he has those plays, man. And too, even on the cover zero that he throws to Jacobi Myers on third and six, I think, the play before that, they're in second 18 because of a penalty and he riffs one to Myers like on the numbers on a stop route. And so I was just like, he can bail you out of those moments at times. He's, he's going to lose you some games, but I really think that there are moments where he can win it to you too. And he gave you both

today, which was really funny. I was going to say, which one did he do today? Both. He gave you both. And you just got lucky that you came out on top. Brother, the Parker Washington touchdown was like as good as it gets. But you know what though? Which I think everything you said is right, Derek. But after a certain point, this is just who Trevor is. Like both of those things are true. But when what do I do with that?

Yeah. Like when does it start to matter that the good never outweighs the bad? I guess is what I'm saying. Like we can sit here, we can sit here and say till we're blue in the face, like, Trevor can be a really good quarterback. He has these moments and they're really special and impressive. But if it comes with three of those dipshit type of moments per week, what are you supposed to do with that? You know why I'm so scared of this? Why?

Because your quarterback is a little bit like this. At least it's more talented sometimes. I see the next like three years of my life playing out in front of me and I don't think I like it. I've just, I've, I've, I've kind of accepted what he is and I love him for what he is. You can do that because you could divorce yourself from it at the end of the day. Exactly. I don't have to deal with the wins and losses. People are always like, how can't, like, why can't Derek admit this guy's not good?

And yeah, like, the ability to just be like, oh, that's tough. He'll get him next week is, it's a great equalizer. Last one here. We're talking, we're going to talk about the Minnesota Vikings today. And we're going to talk about the Minnesota Vikings in a very specific way. because on the preview show, Derek tried to put an embargo on J.J. McCarthy talk because it's all the same and what else is there new to say. And Dave refused to let that happen. The Vikings look awful in a 23 to 6 loss to the Packers in this game.

J.J. McCarthy's EPA per dropback is the sixth worst mark in a game this season. It is just the latest lowlight and what has been a parade of them for him and the Vikings passing game. So because you were the one that did not support the moratorium, David, you are the one who has to lay out what happened in this game for J.J. McCarthy and the Vikings offense. This is on you. I really walked into this. It's like it's the meme where the guys like me, me reaping. Yeah, this rules me sewing. Oh, this sucks. And watching this back on Sunday evening sucked. Not only was this the sixth worst game of the year by a quarterback, JJ has three of the 20 worst.

So every game that an NFL quarterback has started this year for any team, JJ's got three of the 20 worst starts. And you know what I kept thinking during this game, Robert? Two thoughts. Number one, the Vikings did what they could to not put this on him. Like they ran the ball fairly well in this game. Aaron Jones and Jordan Mason both. They had a top five rushing success rate for the weekend,

20 carries, 93 yards. They did their best. And 23 points against the Green Bay Packers, the defense, considering what they were getting out of their offense, I thought put up a pretty good fight as well. But when JJ's dropbacks look like this, I don't know what you're supposed to do. And the big thing I kept thinking was, listening back to y'all do the hangover last week, Robert was talking about how frantic it felt and JJ just needing to calm down. I felt like he took that advice, but he took it like way too literally.

I would 100% agree with that. It was one of my first thoughts while rewatching this game is that he was hopping around the pocket in exaggerated ways to the last two games. And in this game, he did not move. He, he looked like, like, it looked like his inner monologue was like, okay, JJ, remember what we talked about, like, get to the top of your drop, do this, like, look here. And like, by the time he got done, thinking about what he was supposed to be calmly doing,

Micah Parsons or Devante Wyatt was running through his face. Like, he slowed it down too much. And like the whole time rewatching his dropbacks this evening, I was like, dude, we got to go. You got to go. Look at this play. If you're watching on YouTube, the number of like three and a half to four second holds where it's like the ball

has to come out. And if you watch this game on Fox with the sound at all, Greg Olson, between Matt LaFleur playing conservative as hell because he knew he could get away with it and J.J. McCarthy just really struggling to play NFL quarterback. Greg Olson was at his wits end. Like he was so fed up with J.J. McCarthy just not having his internal clock calibrated correctly. And that's what it looked like all day long, man. Five sacks. And the picks didn't come until late, probably because he wasn't letting go of the ball often enough.

but yeah, it was like a course correction gone way too far. The second pick, I mean, the first pick is arm gets hit. The second pick, I think he's trying to throw it to the clear-out route on Dagger, but the guy's not open. So I just like don't, I'm not exactly sure what would compel you to throw that ball because that's not how the progression is supposed to work as far as I understand it. And so the idea that like it's the wrong. choice and it's a choice that makes no sense and it's a horrendous throw it's coming from two

different directions and where I land with this is I want to give a guy some grace that's like six or seven starts into his career when it comes to like slamming the door on him the Vikings are not in that position a lot of the time when you're drafting a guy in the top 10 and he's having some growing pains you're a team that's at step one or step two of the process The Vikings are not in a spot where they can see this through. You can't go into next season with him as your starter if it continues this way. And I think that's kind of the point that we're reaching because there's no way, based on all the other talent you've assembled and what your goals are, considering how the last couple seasons have gone and also just the way that you built the roster, that you can continue to do it this way. Like somebody else will have to be the starting quarterback for the Vikings next year or the presumptive starter heading into the season if it continues.

going down this road. And I think that says as much about their timeline as it does about JJ McCarthy and the quality of his play. I mean, there's an interesting conversation to be had about that in the off season. I'd go as far as to say, can you do this for six more weeks? Like if it looks like this, how many more times can it look like this? What's the alternative, though? Yeah, I mean, I don't know the answer. I guess find out what Max Brosmer's got going on. I don't know. But what does that do for you? Other than like maybe salvaging some morale, I worry about it from the very real perspective of convincing the locker room you're doing everything that you can if you're getting this type of quarterback play on a regular basis. So how pumped are you guys from Mack Jones, 2026 Vikings quarterback?

Oh, I don't like that thought. The number of times we are going to see the clip of Kevin O'Connell telling Anthony Richardson that he believes in him between now and March. You can't do that. I would rather do that. I understand that, but I think if you're the Vikings in this scenario, this is about floor not ceiling. If you want to draft another guy later, that's fine. I think this becomes a floor not ceiling consideration for this team.

All right, let's talk about what made us feel romantic in week 12 of the NFL before we get out of here. I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty. So the Giants took the Lions to overtime in a game that the, the lions probably deserve to lose. But on the first game of overtime, Jemir Gibbs topped off an incredible game already by on the first play, taking one straight to the house.

And like on this play, Penae Sule climbs to the second level, takes out a linebacker. And when they show it from like the back, like the end zone cam, as Penae Sule is like whipping back around, you can see him throw his arms up knowing that it's a touchdown because it's Jemir Gibbs

versus one safety down the middle. Of course he's going to score there. And so my immediate thought was like, God, Jemir Gibbs is incredibly cool. And then my second thought was that play should end a football game. We have to go back to sudden death in overtime. Like a play that cool where Jemir Gibbs on the first play takes it like 80 yards and ends it, game over. Everybody go home, lights off. Like that should be the end of the game.

But the Giants get the ball back. I'm like, that feels for the playoffs, obviously you have to keep it going. But for the regular season, man, cut it. Like, it's game over. I 100% agree with this because that was my first reaction to it as well. Like, if you want to do other, it shouldn't be Southern, sudden death overtime, period, like, that's fine to me. Like, I don't think it should be sudden death.

I don't think you should be able to kick a field goal and win an NFL game. But in the regular season, if you score a touchdown on the opening drive, I do think that it should end the game. And this is the perfect example of it. Like, there should be no more football game after that Jamir Gibbs touchdown. I'm sure there are good arguments on the other side. of it, but what does your heart tell you? And your heart tells you in that moment that the game should be over.

Your heart tells you it's done. That guy just killed the other team. Game over. Everybody go home. Take the ball. And that's not what actually happens. It stinks that that's how it works. I don't like it.

And that's the other part of it is it takes away from that moment. Yes. Like the fact that that is not a walk off touchdown, it like it diminishes it somehow and it should not be diminished. Like if you score a touchdown in overtime that way, the game should end. I'm absolutely. with you on this. The rule exists so that Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen don't have to not touch the ball in overtime of a playoff game. It doesn't. Playoffs is great. Yeah. Yeah. Playoffs fine. No,

regular season, week 12, come on. It's a phenomenal rule for the divisional round and onward, you know, but in week 12, I'm sorry to my Giants fans. Like, would anybody have cared if James Winston didn't have a chance to rebut? I would not have. So I'm, with you. My way, how can, how could you not be romantic about football in week 12 was going to be about the Brown's defensive line taking over that game? It's going to shift a little bit because Chip Kelly just got fired, which I'm not celebrating in any way, by the way. I want to make that clear before we dig into this. I think that there's something, even if you can't be romantic about it, there is something that is specific to football in a way that I appreciate. And that's that the game

will humble you very, very quickly. It takes a lot to stay at the top. And I've always appreciated it about that, I've always appreciated that about this sport and about the NFL, period. Chip Kelly was hired by the Raiders and made the most expensive offensive coordinator in the NFL this offseason. The Raiders paid him $6 million to be their play caller because of the job that he did at Ohio State and winning the national championship last year.

He lasted 12 weeks. He did not make it. to Thanksgiving. There are plenty of other issues with the Raiders. This is not all on Chip Kelly. The Raiders are an absolute dumpster fire. I don't know where they go from here. I'm not sure how you can bring this staff back. I'm also not sure how you can fire them after one year after what happened with the Antonio Pierce thing. So they're between a rock and a hard place. But this is just such a reminder of it's hard to stay at the top for very long. Things change very, very quickly. And I don't think there's any pure expression of what life in the NFL is a coach.

is than that. Tough business. It really is. It really is. Well compensated at this level, fortunately, for... Six million dollars for 12 weeks to work is pretty good if you can get it. It's not bad. But also shout out Miles Garrett for being...

Just like we said, in shouting distance of the sack record with six weeks to play. That's going to be fun. Yeah, I think there are going to be some people who are confused that we did not talk about the performance of the quarterbacks in this game. All I'll say is that in this game that the Browns won 24 to 10, they had a 25 and a half percent offensive success rate and a 24 percent dropback success rate. So I'll talk about the Browns offense when I think that the quality of the play for

everybody is important to the long-term future of the Cleveland Browns. I do not think that yet. For further context on the Ravens, going back. to them, the Ravens success rate for the week was sandwiched in between Cleveland and Las Vegas. So that's why they were in WTF and were not talking about the performances of the Browns or the Raiders. Dave, what made you feel romantic about football in week 12? We already talked about it, but I mean, really, there were three of them in the Dallas, in the Dallas Philadelphia game, but the one that really stood out, the George Pickens 43-yarder

off of Cooper DeGine's head. and like I said, Devante Smith had one, C.D. Lamb had one. That type of physical ability. And Jemir Gibbs is very similar. It's just a different sort of alien. But these alien receivers who can make these sorts of plays where you go 43 yards downfield, you corkscrew up and pick the football off of another grown man's helmet and come down with it and make the catch and make it look easy. it's like why you like why you watch this stuff and why it spikes your adrenaline my fiance was in the kitchen next to where I was watching the games when that happened and I just started screaming and she's like oh my God what's wrong with you and I was I was like George Pickens I don't know I don't know what I just saw and I did that like all afternoon long in that Dallas Philadelphia game and it's

It's, I freaking love it. I love stuff like that. And it's, it's like, I mean, I know these guys are people. They're humans just like us. They're fallible. They make mistakes. But they have superhuman ability on the football field. And it is a thrill to watch them do their stuff at the highest level like George Pickens did on Sunday.

The deep corner he catches is the coolest catch. But my favorite is the dig he caught like I think in the second half where he runs through the corner like bullies him through the inside of. the route, catches the ball and just turns around and points at him in the ground. I'm like, that's George Pickens. That's incredible. It's funny that you say that because my two react, the CD Lamb catch I had that reaction to where I was like, this is insane, like the body control. And then the other one where I was telling my wife about it is the play that it was actually

incompletion for A.J. Brown, where he has the presence of mind wall turning to stick the ball out at the pylon. Yep. Yep. That was insane. Just casually, one handing a football while he's being tackled by another grown man. and just making it look routine. Yeah.

Yeah. There were plenty of those in this game. All right. Before we get out of here, let's talk about what we learned from week 12. You know, I think I've learned something today. I don't have spent a ton of time on this.

My lesson from week 12 is that this was a terrible year to start the table bit. Probably the worst year since like 2021, maybe, like the COVID year? Like, Come on guys. How bad could it be? We know who the contenders are.

Yeah, we sure do. Yeah, we know who they all are. We have a great, we have a great feeling about everyone at our table right now. Every single, it's going to make it really fun. Every single thing that's happened since we cut the table down has made me feel like the dumbest boy in school. I swear to God. Even the teams who won, outside of the Chiefs beating another team that was like really good in contention for it. Like the Patriots were in contention.

They barely beat the Bengals. The Seahawks play a much closer game against the Titans than they should have. obviously the bills lost on Thursday night. Like it just, most of these teams did not cover them. The Ravens, like we talked about earlier, had a really weird game. Like most of these teams that we think are like in the top quartile of the league did not cover themselves in glory this week. It makes it more dangerous for us, but it makes the league more fun overall. And so it was a bad year to start at the table, but it makes me very excited about what the final six or so weeks of the NFL season are going to look like.

So we've got that to look forward to. Speaking of Titans, Seahawks, we're going to hit that game on the Hangover tomorrow. We're also going to talk about Bengals Patriots on the Hangover tomorrow. For now, that is all we've got. We've got a slightly different schedule this week. I'll lay it out for you guys tomorrow because I can't even remember exactly what it is. It's one in the morning right now. But we will still have plenty of shows coming your guys's way during the holiday week,

just slightly different than it would be in a normal one. So we will lay all that out for you on the Hangover show tomorrow. For now, that is all we've got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.