The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 13 recap: Did the Eagles just notch the biggest win of the season?

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

The Eagles' win over the Ravens in Week 13 wasn't just the team's best on its current eight-game winning streak. It was quite possibly the best win of the season for any team. That's where Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen begin the Week 13 recap episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also discuss the Steelers winning a game in which they needed to score more than 38 points, Kirk Cousins' terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day, the crazy NFC West race, and a whole lot more.RundownEagles make statement with win over RavensThe NFC West race...You Have My AttentionSeahawks knock off JetsVikings sneak past CardinalsWho will win the NFC West?Pittsburgh Steelers, the likely AFC North Champs...You Have My Attention!Kirk Cousins...WTF?!?Buccaneers narrowly avoid WTF statusOK, Bryce YoungWashington's offense isn't dead yetThe Texans find a way to let us down, even when they winA 19-play, game-winning drive from the Colts?!?What Did We Learn Today?Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Brought to you by Thursday Night Football only on Prime Video. I'm Robert Mays. Week 13 is in the books. Me and Derek Classen broke down all of Sunday's action on tonight's show. Started with a fantastic win for the Philadelphia Eagles in Baltimore, an exceptional performance from their defense. Chat about the NFC West, the weirdness going on in the NFC West,

just the tightness of that division. Big game for the Seahawks, big win today. Loss for the Cardinals. Just trying to make sense of where that division stands through 13 weeks. Chat about the Steelers offense and Russell Wilson rolling up 500 yards against the Cincinnati Bengals. Discussed a WTF performance from the Kirk Cousins led Atlanta Falcons who lost a disgusting game today to the Los Angeles Chargers. And, you know, chatted about a few more things that grabbed our attention to week 13. So let's get to all of that with Derek.

All right, Derek, a very weird week 13 in the books. How are you feeling right now? I'm doing pretty good. This was certainly an interesting. interesting week in the NFL. I think this week I found myself being like, what, what is wrong with you? Throughout this Sunday more than most other Sundays, but otherwise still a pretty good day of football. We're going to start with teams that are contenders and one that has announced themselves in a very big way after their win today. Let's kick this off with the Eagles win over the Ravens. The Eagles beat Baltimore 2419 in Baltimore. In my opinion, honestly, one of the more impressive performances of the season, considering what the Eagles defense look like down to down. They're now 10 and 2.

They are one game behind the Lions in the NFC. They are very much in play for the number one seed in the NFC and are definitive Super Bowl contenders right now and among the Super Bowl favorites, which is not something I thought we'd be saying four weeks into the year when this team was 2 and 2. The Ravens are now 8 and 5, two games behind the Steelers in the loss column.

And we've gotten from, you know, they'll probably hang around. They still may win the AFC North, even if it's been a little bit frustrating to. Now, it seems like this is, probably going to be a wild card team. And that has a huge impact on what their playoff chances look like and what the rest of the season may look like.

But Derek, let's start, which is your initial thoughts on this game, your biggest takeaway from what Philadelphia did to Lamar and the Ravens today. I just continue to be impressed by this defense. And I know by this point, it's been like a month and a half of how long we've been talking about how good this defense is. But it just feels like, you know, the game that Lamar played against the Steelers, I think was probably his worst game of the season up to that point. I think this was maybe worse.

I think when you watched this game, you didn't really get good offense out of the Ravens, particularly in the passing game. I thought they ran the ball pretty well at points. But in the passing game, they really, really struggled to get any of the easy buttons. And I think we kind of said that coming in, right, that this was an offense that I think they could get a little bit of pass rush onto Lamar Jackson, which I do think they did today. They sacked him three times, and he's been a generally unsackable quarterback this year, which is pretty impressive.

but they got a lot of pressure on him. And then they really didn't allow him to get a lot of those throws over the middle, particularly in structure that he's like. Like he had a couple, like he nails one to Mark Andrews into a tight window that he kind of catches over his back shoulder. But otherwise, Lamar Jackson was kind of having to move around and scramble around and kind of make all these hero plays in at a certain point, like obviously he can give you that, right?

But if that's all you have and you're really struggling to find any of the other easy buttons for him, a defense like this is just not going to let you get enough of those plays. and they're eventually going to have a game like this where they hold you to 19 and that's enough. Even the big plays they did hit in this game felt like they were out of desperation. He has the 40-yard to Zay earlier in the game where he has to escape to his left, make that play out of structure. It'll deep into the down. The touchdown he has to Mark Andrews. That's not a desperation throw, but that's a very tight window throw.

Blanketship's back has turned. I understand why you make that play, but that requires a hell of a catch by Mark Andrews. Then they have a chunk to Zay within structure, but those are really the only big plays they had in this game. There's a big crosser to Mark Andrews that he hit over the backup safety. I mean, you can count the big passing plays from the Ravens on one hand. I can remember all of them. And at least half of those came out of structure when he had to create something. And that's what it felt like all day against this Eagles defense.

On time within the rhythm of the play in terms of what they were trying to produce in the passing game, he had nothing there. And some of those cacks, those are coverage sacks. He has nowhere to go with the ball. And that was happening all day. It felt like he was pulling the rip cord, not to run, but to get out of the pocket pretty quickly in this game because he just wasn't trusting what was there. And that's just not an experience we're really used to having with this Ravens offense this year.

They've been able to play on their terms the entire season. And we've gotten to a place now where I think I might be comfortable saying that from a coverage perspective, so I don't know about the edge rushers compared to some of the other really good teams that we're talking about really good defenses. But on the back seven, when you're playing zone and you're trying to squeeze with other passing games or trying to do to you, there is no defense in the NFL right now playing better in that specific area than the Philadelphia Eagles. And this was the best possible example of it.

I think you're probably right. And, you know, actually, it kind of as I was watching this game, it almost made me think of what we said about the Chargers defense versus the Falcons, which we will certainly get to later in the show. But it's that the Falcons were an offense that are really, really good at beating man coverage, right? And that's actually been true of the Ravens this year. They're a team that because they run so many crossers, obviously Zay can just run away from people. Mark Andrews is really good on a bunch of those deep overs and stuff. Even Rashad Bateman, like when he's healthy, one-on-one can actually

win some of those, especially in like the one to 10-yard area. The Eagles play a lot of zone, and they really just kind of put a lid on everything. And I think you saw that in this game. And then I think the other thing that really stood out to me and kind of embodies why this Eagles defense is really stepping up. Late in the game, Ravens have a fourth and eight. They've to convert or the game is effectively over. The Eagles have a backup safety in the game for re-banking ship because he's been hurt. Something McCollum. I forget his first name. It's McCollum. I have no idea what his first name is. Totally forget what his first name is. Anyway, this guy makes an awesome play. He kind of buzzes down to play into the hook area towards the field where the Ravens have three

receivers. He feels the dig route coming from, I think, say, flowers, and just flies with it across the field, gets under it, knocks it down. And it's just like, dude, when your backup safety is coming into the game to make pretty much the play that ends the game for, you know, for the Eagles, that is just to me a testament of what Vic Fangio has done with really this entire defense. And we've seen it with some guys from day one, like what he's done with Bond moving him to positions, but we've seen it later in the season where Dijin finally gets into the lineup midseason and he becomes an impact starter, or you get guys like Nikobe Dean who have finally been coming along. And then now you get to play like this where backup safety comes off the bench and he makes the

game saving play. I just, I'm so impressed by what Fangio has done. And this was a game that It felt like it put a really good stamp on what he's been doing the last six, seven weeks. I think it's a great point. And we had other backups that started this game for the Eagles, right? Yeah, right. Darius Slay doesn't play in this game. You have Isaiah Rogers over there, and I want to say it was on the first couple drives. And this happened a couple different times over the course of the game,

where the Ravens tried to bleed out one side in zone coverage, whether it was quarters or cover three with the outside corner. They sent a vertical route that way or across or the other way, where it's like, We're trying to vacate this outside zone in one way or another. And multiple different times, whether it was Mitchell or whether it was Isaiah Rogers, they don't vacate that zone. And I think it was Mitchell chopped down Mark Andrews once when they were trying to send a crosser back in his direction.

And then Isaiah Rogers had a PBE on a very similar thing. So just the ability to kind of overcome, which should have been the weak points in this game, whether it was Rogers, whether it was Blank or whether it was McCollum in there. And then there was another play that really sticks out to me. It was kind of to me, I almost way encapsulates the way the Eagles felt in this game. It was the third and five for the Ravens with like 10 and a half minutes to go in the third quarter. And it was the Zach Bond sack. And they send Zach Bonn on a blitz.

And what the Ravens are trying to do on that play, Keely Ringo is in there. Because members, Quinnion Mitchell got banged up. Yeah, he got banged up a little bit. They're trying to take advantage of Keely Ringo on a little return route from Zay Flowers. And Lamar is looking at that. But instead of just taking it in and out back to the flat, Zay takes it vertical. there's nowhere for Lamar to go with the ball. Justice Hill, who's been excellent in pass protection for a huge portion of this year,

misses Bonn as he tries to chop him down, and then Bonn, it's a loss of 14 on the sack and they missed the field goal. That to me was just this, that was today for the Ravens. Even when they thought they had a match of advantage, even when there's something they figured they could pick at, it wasn't there. And then you combine that with a couple of misses from Lamar. He missed Isaiah likely on that sale route or that Seattle route where he's lined up in the slot.

He's running an outbreak or corner back to the left, just sends it over him. Then the other weird mess from Omar that I think was really important because it's on a third down deep in their own territory. They had that sprint out to the right where he was looking at Zay and he just throws it at his feet. I swear that got a combination of everything. Like when I watched, that's the thing.

It threw it right at his feet. Live when I saw it live, I was like, surely somebody got a hand on this. And then you watched the replay two, three times. And you're like, unless there was a ghost with some really strong hands, I don't think anybody got a touch on that. Those d'Bs are just playing so, so well. And Cooper DeGine is just, having the dots is nice,

because the work I'm doing in front of all that work, I have access to NextGen during the games. And so when there are plays where I can't see the secondary, I can at least see the dots. And you just look at where Dejean is consistently, his positioning. When he's supposed to get depth, he gets depth. When they're trying to pick on him in the flat, he's not letting people pick on him in the flat.

And you combine that with the play that Mitchell is giving them, and it's just wild how many strengths this team had in places that used to be weaknesses. Dude, the coverage stuff is cool with Dijin. The stick he had on Derek Henry. Oh, yeah, that's, I mean, it's the play of the year. Get out of here, bro. To just completely stand up Derek Henry and pick him up and drop him,

you got to have some nuts to do that as a rookie dude. That's crazy. You look at just this team top to bottom and what the Eagles have built. When they're healthy, when Slay is in there, Blankett chip had a concussion today when Blanket chip is in there. Who's the worst starter for the Eagles? Like, if they have all their guys, I mean, like, maybe Nikobe Dean, and he's still not bad. Like, he still does something for you.

Like, I really don't think there's that many actively bad starters. Like, you have to hide Dean a little bit, but when you have so many other good players, that's very doable. I think you could probably say the other edge rushing spot right now because Brandon Graham's heard the kind of cycling between options there. But we're really nitpicking. Also, Devante Smith didn't play in this game. When this team is healthy, they really don't have that many.

You look at the 22, 26 kind of guys that rotate in and out of the game. I think you can make a serious argument that this is the most talented roster in the NFL top to bottom right now. And the concern we had coming into the year was, okay, even if they're really talented, the vibes there were horrendous heading out of last year. You swap out both coordinators. How quickly can you get to a place where you feel good about the operation on both sides of the ball? On defense, it took up six weeks, and as soon as you have a comfort level with the system and Dijin, now they're playing the best defense in the NFL. And then offensively, even if there are still some things to nitpick, you know, sometimes with the way that hurts plays or some of the choices that he makes, I still feel like this is a really good mix for them of what they used to be and what they are now.

And a couple examples that I would use on the touchdown drive to go to make it a 9-7 game. they run quarterback counterbash with J.1. Hertz. So it's an inside run with J.1. Hertz with two pullers. They get a chunk on that. And then on that play, they finish it off with like a slide RPO touchdown

to Dallas Goddard when Cal Hamilton didn't fill down fast enough. That's old Eagles, right? That's the Eagles we've come to know. That's the greatest Eagles hits that you still want to incorporate in who you are. On the next drive, to start the drive, they have a chunk to A.J. Brown, when they send Covey in fly motion, and they get this horizontal stretch

and then they hit AJ Brown coming back over the middle. Then there was another 15-yard chunk where they high-low the linebacker in the middle of the field and hit AJ Brown on another bender for 15 yards. They score a touchdown on that drive. That's the new Eagles. So you have this mixture of stuff that we still, the things that were good about that old offense,

you don't throw those in the garbage. You still have really good players capable of doing that stuff. But now, just making things a little bit easier in the dropback game, giving yourself some options. The first one I talked about with Covey in motion, it was under center play action. So you have horizontal stretch, plus you're making the linebackers step up, throw it behind the linebackers. They've run under center play action 22 times this year. They did it three times last year.

I'm surprised it's that high. So even that, they did it three times all last season. They've done it 22 times so far this year through 13 weeks. So these tiny little tweaks in what the offense was supposed to be, you have really, really good players. It was just about putting them in slightly better positions. and I do think they've found a healthy enough mix where the scheme and what they're trotting out feels a lot different than it did at the end of last season when this thing really did feel like it was broken.

I think that's a really good point about the under center play action and them only doing it at this point, what, 18, 19 more times than they did last year. It's not a lot, but I think I probably... It's twice a game. Yeah, it's twice a game, but I probably, I think, overjudged how much the offense needed to be new. Like I think I came into the season being like what they were doing last year was not working. It needs to be 50% new and, you know, half of it can be the old stuff. Realistically, if the players are good enough, it probably can just be 75% of the old stuff if you're doing it well enough.

And then 20, 25% of this other stuff that's a little bit new. And I think I probably just like miscalculated what the ratio needed to be. And I think for the first, again, for the first month, six weeks of the season, I think they struggled a little bit to find what that was supposed to look like and how good they could be on some of this new stuff, some of the stuff that Kellyn Moore like, to do with some of his other quarterbacks. But I think as the season has gone on, they've kind of found a rhythm with what they want to do with that. And then the run game continues to just be dominant. I mean, this game, they weren't like insane, but they just grind you down.

And then at the very end, Sequin Barclay does the thing again. And he rips off a 30-yard touchdown and calls again. So touchdown drive number one, old stuff. Touchdown drive number two, new stuff. Touchdown drive number three, we're going to own your soul by the end of the game. And if you look at that drive specifically, had two chunk runs with the quarterback in the run action. They gave it to Saquin on the first one, and then J-Wa-Hertz keeps it on the second one.

And on the keep and then on the 25-yard Saquan touchdown, Jordan Milata, all six, eight, 365 pounds of Jordan Milana is pulling on those plays. And just the sheer force of nature feel to what that offensive line is over the course of the game. And the fact that you have a 360-pound guy pulling at you in space in the fourth quarter, it's a lot to deal with. You combine that with Sequin and Barclay and it is a lot to deal with. I don't think it's an accident that we get one of these chunk runs late in the game every single week from this team because of just the fear,

the sheer physical dominance that you have to concern yourself with, with who they are up front combined with how dynamic the back is right now. Yeah, it's not an accident. They built it to do this thing. I think what was crazier to me, too, even after all of the touchdown drives, the field goal drive at the end. They have a third and seven, right? And they give it to Barclay to convert.

First of all, he's carried the ball like 20 times by this time. So he's already beaten up theoretically. I swear it's the fastest seven yards I've ever seen anybody run. He sprints into a linebacker like four yards, barrels him over, gets the first down. And I was like, for you to be shot out of a cannon that late in the game and just run through people and end the game, this offense. And that player scare me a lot.

Does the state of the Ravens scare you right now? A little bit. I think what's frustrating is I think if you, I think a month ago, if you told me the defense would be playing like it is now, like for all we just said about how good the Eagles offense has been, to hold the Eagles to 24 points, given how they have been playing the past six weeks,

that is actually a respectable defensive performance. Down to down, they didn't get walked over in this game. No, they really didn't. And like I said, the run game wasn't that. good until the end where they just, they wear you down and that's going to happen. And it was like kind of just okay up until then. And they didn't allow that many explosives through the air. Like, it was really a solid day for the Ravens defense. And I think if you told me they could play at this level a month ago, I'd be like, man, then they're going to be cooking. The offense has been doing

great. The defense is playing at this level. It's going to be fine. But this team just continues to find ways to not be aligned somehow. Like when their defense finally has a really good performance and they've been on the upswing up swing for maybe a month now, they've got two games now, you know, in this past month area where the Ravens offense has had some of their worst performances. And the special teams continues to be a problem. It was a problem today. Tucker missed two kicks in a game they lost by five points. Like, it's just stuff like that continues to happen with this team. So they're like a great team that finds ways to be good. It's really, really, really frustrating. You'd hope that as we go down the stretch here, the defense

is steadily improving and playing a little bit better over the course of the year. If that trend can continue. The offense is going to have better days than it did against the Eagles today. Again, I think you can make a really serious argument that as it currently stands, the Eagles have the best defense in the NFL. So you'd hope that if there are better days against lesser opponents on offense and the defense is improving, those two things can come together at the right time. We can have a convergence in the correct moment. The kicking part of it, you can't really make that argument. This is a problem. So this season, so far, the Ravens are 30th in the NFL and EPA lost on field goals. 30th.

There are two teams worse than them, which is hard to imagine, but you think about the Jets kicking situation and then some of the big kicks that Young Wai Ku has missed, those are the two teams below them.

From 2012 to 2023, the Ravens added 1602, I think, EPA on field goals. New England was at 100. No one else was above 75. The Ravens were twice as good

in terms of the amount of value they added on field goal attempts, over a 10-year period, 11-year period, than 30 other teams in the NFL. And that's why this is just so depressing and such a huge issue, because I don't know what you do with the guy who is arguably the greatest kicker of all time,

but is now when you have a real chance to be at least a relevant team in the AFC playoff race, even if you don't think you're in the top-y-top tier of contenders, what do you do with this? Because I feel like you have to make a really hard decision, even if that is not a place you want to be if you're John Harbaugh and Eric DeCosta right now as we hit December. That's the complicating factor.

If it was just insert name kicker and you were having these issues, then who cares? Like the Packers did it earlier this year and they're probably going to be fine as a team because they did something like that. The Ravens, it's when he's, at least in my lifetime, it's probably the greatest I've ever seen. It's really hard to move on from a guy like that in the middle of the season. Yes. It's insane. And I've seen him make 60 plus a number of times and 50 plus for him used to be routine.

Whereas now 40 plus seems like it's a little bit of a struggle. Like it's just, I really don't know what they're going to do. I would hope that he can figure it out when he really needs to figure it out down the stretch here over the last month of the season. But it's getting to the point where I feel like the impending AFC championship loss might be because they miss a kick that they really needed. I'm feeling a little bit worse about the ravens today, a lot because of that, but also just the fact that their offense can reach these sorts of lows against a really good deal. These are the teams you're going to have to beat when you play them in January in the games that matter the most. I'm feeling a little bit better about where the Eagles are. Even if it wasn't the down-to-down success, we've seen from them on offense against lesser teams, the fact that the defense can play like this and the fact that in those high leverage moments late in games, you just feel the star power of this team.

You feel the star power on offense and you feel the cohesion on defense. I think that's how I would describe just the experience of watching the Eagles right now. And I think today against this Ravens team is probably the game where I felt that combination of stuff the most. Yeah, I think when you beat a team that good, you can put the stamp of approval on it. All right, guys, before we get to you have my attention. Let's take a quick break. Gentlemen, you had my curiosity. Now you have my attention.

Each week, we like to pick out a few things that really grabbed us, especially in the early slate, when you've got 10,000 things going on. Even though today was kind of nice because you had a bunch of Thanksgiving games. So the fact that we only had seven games in the early window makes it all a little bit more tolerable. We mentioned that we're going to have to shoehorn some things in today because of how weird the weekend was. This is where we're going to start. The NFC West Race, you have my attention. That's how we're going to talk about these games.

The Seahawks are now seven and five. The Cardinals are six and six. The Rams are six and six. Here's why I wanted to frame it this way. This division is wild. Austin Mock from the Athletic after all that everything shook out today. He has the Seahawks with a 33% chance to win the division. The Cardinals with a 33% chance to win the division.

And the Rams with a 26% chance to win the division. So you have three teams that have at least a 25% chance, one quarter, to win the division. If you look at division odds for almost every other division in the league, you're looking at, I think the Packers coming in today, if you look at like BetMGM, we're 14 to 1 to win the division. They were in third place. So just how tight this feels right now is absolutely why. And I think a couple performances today make it feel even more wild. Let's start with the Seahawks beating the Jets. The Seahawks very narrowly missed out on being in what the WTF today.

I'm swearing less because they're starting to bleep it out. I think it sounds ridiculous. So just know that going in. Fumbled three kickoffs, three kickoffs in a row. They fumbled three kickoffs. They lost two of them. And then they allowed a kickoff return touchdown later in the game. And then multiple different times in this game,

they allowed a kickoff like past the 40 yard line. Overall, it's truly one of the worst kickoff performances on both sides of the ball. I think I've ever seen. It was ridiculous. This was one of the most of baffling games I've watched back because I didn't actually catch much of this live. This was a game I had to go back and watch live during Sunday. I absolutely did. And people were like, oh, this game, all the kickoffs, I was like, it can't be that bad.

And then I watched it back. And it's truly the most baffling experience. It's like, first of all, yeah, they fumble one of the kickoffs, but he, I think the first one he actually does take it out. He gets it's like the 20 and then actually fumbles it. And then the next two, he just drops at different points. I just, I don't know, man. This was one of the most bizarre games that I've ever seen. And like the Seahawks cannot afford to have these kinds of miskews as a special teams unit.

When their offense consistently struggles to put points on the board, like you cannot give the other team the ball like this the way that they did. Granted against the Jets, maybe you can get away with it. And they obviously did in this game. think if stuff like this were to happen against 25 other teams, you probably lose the game. The Jets had a 32% success rate on offense today. And they very nearly won the game because of how many mistakes the Seahawks made outside of this. About halfway through the second quarter, it's 21 to 7 after the most recent kickoff fumble. And the Jets have the ball at the 10-yard line of 21 to 7 halfway through the second quarter. And Leonard Williams makes a game saving.

And you can make a real argument, like potentially season saving play for the Seahawks. And sometimes when you have interceptions return for touchdown by defensive lineman, the ball's tipped, you know, they get it because somebody else made a play. On this play, Leonard Williams is lined up, I think, as the nose to the right side. So he's in the A gap between the left guard and the center. He drops all the way into like the hook into the hook area on the other side of the formation. and Rogers throws it right to him and this 300 pound man

takes it 91 yards for a touchdown. I used to do a segment in the Winners and Losers column I wrote, I think for Grantland, just very, very long time ago. It might have been for the ringer. It doesn't matter. It's at some point over the last 10 years. And the segment was called NFL players. They're nothing like us.

Just picking out like some sort of physical ridiculousness that happened over the course of the day. A 300 pound man returning an interception 91 yards and just out running everyone to the end zone is a very good example of NFL players. They're absolutely nothing like us. And I think the craziest part is Aaron Rogers, I don't think, realized he was like it. Like this to me was, I think there are sometimes where a guy drops into a zone that you don't

expect and you're like, oh, I just didn't see him. This to me felt like Aaron Rogers was like, it's a defensive alignment dropping. I can beat this with the ball. I can throw it faster than that. And then turns out, no, you can't. And Leonard Williams is able to get over and make that play. I truly think it is season saving. Like for them to get back into this game the way that they did, again, with the offense kind of

struggling to move the ball for a lot of this game, you needed some type of bullshed touchdown. And Leonard Williams absolutely came through in this game. And it was, they really needed it. That front and Leonard Williams in particular, I don't know if he's going to make an actual push for defensive player of the year. But this is one of the strongest like second half of the season pushes. I think we're seeing from any player in the NFL right now. He was like, he's 30 years always having a career year.

He had other sacks in this game. He was awesome. He was awesome. He's playing the best football of his career this season. I think that that's pretty clear in what he's done over the last few games. And the fact that he's doing it, he was drafted in 2015, I'm pretty sure. I mean, this is year 10 for him. Does that sound right?

Yeah. Your 10 is only 30? I think it's year 9 or 10 for him. I think he was one of the younger guys. We've gotten a lot of Leonard Williams in our career. I remember that drafted vividly because the bears are picking seventh overall and he went sixth overall. and the Bears picked Kevin White, and I've never ever forgiven how that all went. But the fact that we're 10 years into his career, almost a decade,

Beller says it's 2015, so this is year 10. Or in year 10, he's playing the best football of his career. I was a little lukewarm on the deal they gave him. I understand why you do it after trading a second round pick for a guy, but to give him $24, $25 million a year, whatever that contract is, for a guy that is a good player, but I didn't feel like was kind of a game-wrecking force at any point since we've gotten to know. know him. There's egg on my face after seeing that signing that way because he's been the best

player on their defense over the last few weeks. And I think the funny part is like in a in a way, like when and why they signed him wasn't justified. Like that was a different defense. And now it's a new defense and the new defensive coordinator has fixed it and made the contract look really good. And they've gotten this guy to play at a really high level. The one other defensive shout out I want to make before we maybe move on to the other side of the ball, Julian Love played a hell of a game today. He had a huge tip on a third down, forced to fumble on Breece Hall. He had a huge play at the end of the game. He, him and Leonard Williams really, really played out of their mind today. It was awesome. Yeah, that defense is playing exceptional. The problem is the offense and the special

teams are struggling. They win this game, but they need two big fourth down penalties on that final drive in order to win this game. There's a PI with nine, or not final drive, but in the fourth court. There's a PI from their own 38 with 915 left that, you know, I can understand where's a PI. But then there's a fourth and one later in that drive where there's a horse collar that I don't know, man. I'm not so sure about that one. So this is just a team that I think because of how often they're shooting themselves in the foot is making the margins very, very thin. And thankfully today, their defense continued to step up to the plate against the Jets offense that is struggling. So they win this game and they are now in first place in the division with a

33% chance to win the division. The Cardinals lose to the Minnesota Vikings in a game they easily could have won. But instead, Sam Darnold once again in the fourth quarter is nails on like four or five throws with the game on the line. And the Vikings somehow, despite being down a touchdown in the fourth quarter, climb their way back into this thing and beat an Arizona team that I think in a lot of ways played better than I expected today and still somehow did not win the game. Compare the two quarterbacks were so funny. There was like a freaky Friday sort of situation. I think after the third quarter. For three quarters of this game,

Kyler Murray was awesome. And like the Cardinals' offense kind of stalled out a little bit in the red zone a couple times. But then he makes an insane throw to Marvin Harrison Jr. Like just delightful touch on it to finally get them on the board

with points. And then in the fourth quarter, he kind of crumbles. The pressure starts getting to him. He makes a couple of errant throws, really bad interception at the end. It's like fourth down. So, I mean, that stuff's going to happen.

But he had taken a bad sack. Yeah, both picks in this game. Both picks in this game. He has a third and seven interception that's essentially an armed punt, and then there's a fourth and 10 interception at the end of the game. So he's going to walk away with two picks. The picks are not the problem. I'll get to the play that I think was the biggest problem. And I will say, too, the third and seven interception, I think it's bad for him to have like wheeled around and just kind of chucked it up the way that he

did. But on the scramble drill, Michael Wilson is running back to him and he's expecting Michael Wilson to run up the field. So he chucks it deep and Wilson's running back and it's like, all right, one of you was wrong. I'm not really sure who. It was just a miscommunication. That stuff happens. But then Darnold kind of played the opposite game where he was, I think, really rough in trying to give the Cardinals a lot of opportunities in this game to get hands on the football. Anytime the, you know, the Cardinals actually sent some really interesting third down stuff that really got to Darnold in this game. It almost won them the game. It really did. Like the first third down, they throw this like awesome cover two simulated pressure at him. Darnold's brain just gets scrambled

and he ends up taking a sack. And then after that, they started actually sending bodies like five, six guys at him and that kept getting sacks and pressure. But then the fourth quarter, like you said, he made three throws maybe on those final couple of drives that were just like, how do you cover that? How do you cover that? It was one of those throws where you're reminded why he was drafted as high as he is. Sticking to what the Cardinals were doing to them on third down with some of those pressure looks. In this game, Sam Donald was four of seven for 39 yards taking three sacks when he was pressure, when he was blitzed. The Cardinals had an 80% pressure rate when they blitzed today. When they blitzed, they made it very, very hard. this Vikings offense. Minnesota finished one of eight on third down and still won the game.

Again, that's how tight this thing was. And the play that I think swings it, the play where the game changes, in my opinion, it's first and goal from the five with four 14 left in the game. All start on Tip Ryman, sends it to first and goal from the 10. Okay, you know, it's first and goal from the 10. You get 10 yards, score touchdown. Fine. Next play, Vikings run a twist on the right side, Kyler thinks he has a lane moving to his left, slides that way. I can't remember which pass rusher it was comes free. He takes a disgusting intentional grounding on that play, and then it completely torpedoes the drive. So now they have second 25, I want to say. So it's second and goal from the 25. They eventually get back to the four-yard line after, I think it was a Trey Benson

run, and then it was a catch-and-run by Trey McBride to get them inside the five. In this moment, crazy just to think that this is possible, but in 2024, this is kind of where we are. Joe Davis asked Greg Olson, would you go for this right here? They're down three, the Cardinals are up three, right? They're up three in the fourth quarter. He asked him, would you go for this? And Craig Olson says, I think I would. Because if I kick the field goal here, I go up six.

And we know this. This is something that I think is kind of coming more and more into the conversation. into the discourse when it comes to late game football. Being up six is potentially dangerous because then you instill a certain level of aggression on the team that you're playing against. So they kick the field goal, they go up six. Understand it, even if it's something that is maybe a little bit more on the edge than it would have been five, six years ago when we talk about this.

The Vikings on the ensuing drive have a fourth and seven that they go for because they cannot kick a field goal on that fourth and seven, I might have been like fourth and five, fourth or six. I think the broadcast actually had it wrong according to next gen. But they run a little yo-yo motion with Addison and Jefferson and they get Addison and they get Jefferson open on the curl. They hit them and then there's a PI on Hawkinson. We get down, score the touchdown with Aaron Jones, game over. But if they don't kick that field goal, they try to score the touchdown from the four, this thing changes. But because the Vikings were down six and not down three, they have to go forward on fourth and seven and they eventually win the game because of it.

I understand why that is, like, difficult to wrap your head around, the idea of, like, well, we're up and we can go up by more points. Why don't we just do that? We can go up by an amount that if they kick a field goal, they can't beat us. Right. Or they can't tie the game. It's not just a field goal. That's the thing, though, is that when you do this, when you only go up by six, you're

not guaranteeing not losing. Like, that's the whole point of being in that situation is that you have the chips where you can say we can guarantee that we do not lose this game, or not guarantee, like, random stuff can happen, but you make it a two-score game. You have the cards. When you only kick the field goal, you can still lose the game. It is harder to lose the game, but you can still lose the game on the next possession. And it's just like, why would you pass up the opportunity to get out of that jam? That's the part of this to be. That is very confusing, especially when your offense has been one of the best parts of your team the entire season. And I know they struggle the

past couple of weeks inside the 10, but you've got one play with a star quarterback. Like, go for it. On that drive, Darnold hits a chunk to Addison on like a big dagger concept. That was just a beautiful throw. And then the throw on the previous drive, I think they kick a field goal. He hits Addison on a little out route over the flat defender. Dude, that one was crazy. That ball in beautiful. But beautifully. And I think, you know, we'll talk about the NFC West in the second, but just the Vikings specifically. I still am a little bit worried about what the combustibility of Sam Darnold looks like in the playoffs when you're playing against really good defenses. The Cardinals can throw some weird stuff at you, but obviously

that they're not a complete defense. They're not very talented overall. I'm still worried about the Sam Darnold of it all and the volatility of it in big moments. But the fact that he has these clubs in his bag, I'm at least interested in what the Vikings can do, right? I think that they have a ceiling when you combine offensive architecture and design, which I think is consistently very good with his ability to really kind of show up and make these throws in these moments. Or it's like, okay, maybe they're not as complete or as consistent as they're sustaining drives as some of these other offenses they're going to have to play against in the NFC playoffs. But I still think that there's a gear because of some of those throws that he can make that I don't

think you can write them off against the teams like the Eagles and the Lions, even if I think they're definitively one step down. I think that's actually fair. I still worry about the bad plays that Donald has, and I think over the past month or so, he's honestly gotten away with bad plays that just weren't caught. But at the same time, in almost all of his games, even for some of the bad plays and some of the weird sacks he takes, he still gives you the four or five awesome throws. I was worried, especially coming into the season, that he would have more games where he had all the mistakes and had maybe one great throw, and that was it. And he's only had maybe one of those games this season. Like, he really hasn't had those games where he's totally imploded.

He's had games where he's had the swings, but I think that they can manage the swings because everything else is coached up. So well, it's almost like the same paradigm that like the Green Bay Packers operate on. Like obviously Jordan Love is a better quarterback and a better player, but it's almost like the same thing that they're trying to accomplish there with how the quarterback plays. The last game in the NFC West to talk about here. The Rams beat the Saints 21 to 14. The Rams consistently or continue to just be a frustrating experience. They get shut out in the first half. The Rams get shut out in the first half.

first half against this Saints team, this banged up Saints team that's just trying to piece things together. And then the Rams come out in the second half, they did 62% offensive success rate in the second half. They just marched the ball down the field the entire half. So they woke up and they managed to win this game and stay alive. If the Cardinals had lost that game to the Vikings and then the Rams had dropped this game to the Saints, that would have been horrendous. Thankfully, that doesn't happen. They outlast the banged up Saints team. They get to six and six. They still have a 25% chance to make the playoffs. So I will ask you a question that I have been asking you every single week on this show

because of the ridiculousness of this division. On December 1st, who are you picking to win the NFC West? Who is the team to win the NFC West? I think for as annoying as today's game was and annoying as their loss was, and they're the only one of these three teams that did lose today. I still think it's the Cardinals because I still like their offense enough. I still like their offense enough. I think Kyler at his peak is still a really, really good player.

I do think the lows of their offense are really frustrating, and I am a little bit worried about that. But I think the defense is legitimate insofar as, like, I don't think they're a bad unit anymore. I don't really know what the ceiling is. Like, I don't think they're going to suddenly be top eight, like the Chargers and the Eagles and all that stuff. But I actually think someone, what they're doing is pretty legitimate,

and those guys are playing really, really hard. And I think to me, the Rams do have a decent shot, but to me this probably comes down to Seattle and Cardinals, and they're going to play next week, so it's going to be really up to that game. To me, out of the four units between those two teams is offense and defense, I think the one I feel the least good about is actually Seattle's offense, and that to me is like the very slim decider here.

When you said that to me earlier today, I was like, are you kidding me? You feel the worst about Seattle's offense. That's that one. It wasn't, are you kidding me? It was like, man, really? Like, that's where we are. You feel the worst about Gino Smith? But like, because you're thinking of, well, that's the problem.

It's not a Gino Smith thing. And then also we're thinking of like what the Cardinals defense was in late September or in early October where we're like, wow, these guys can not play. So I, but as I thought about it, I was like, okay. Like I actually, I understand where you're coming from with that because I do think that of those four units, the Seahawks offense is the most frustrating one. I'm trying to find the rundown of we didn't talk about this and I wanted to circle back to it. of all the disgusting things that happened for Seattle in this game and all the WTF moments, the fact that they had a first and goal from the one yard line. Oh, dude.

And could not score a touchdown. I want to say it's surprising. It is not surprising based on the experience of watching this Seattle team right now. They struggle to run the ball consistently. I believe 26% of their runs today went for zero or no yardage. that was only like the fifth or sixth the lowest rate in the league. Thankfully, the dolphins and the Texans still

exist, so the Seahawks aren't at the basement because the Texans are always going to be in that conversation this year, which we'll talk about in a second. But the fact that they could not punch that in, that's where we are with this team right now. They're going to hit a couple, like three, four, five explosive plays over the course of the game.

That's always going to happen, even though D.K. Macaf continues to be like a very frustrating player to me, but they are going to find those plays. But the down-to-down consistency because of their inability to run the ball when they need to and what that offensive line looks like. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the Seahawks offense among all four units between them and the Cardinals is the least reliable group among those four right now, which I did not think I would be saying on December 1st. I didn't either. It's just that I watched them play and it's all right,

how many hero balls can Gino Smith throw in a pocket that is still not very good on second and 12 because the run game got hit in the backfield again. It's just a hard way to live. And that's not an indictment of Gino Smith, and I think some of the past catches are decent, but they're just life's too tough right now, I think. Yeah, that offense, I think, is really struggling to find itself. My frustrations with McAff are, and similar to what they've been in years past, where he's 6.5-225 or 6-4-225 and is like the most physically imposing receiver we've ever seen, and he just doesn't really play like it. He's fast. Like, you can hit some vertical shots to him, but most of those balls are, like, placed in his hands. He could be 25 pounds lighter, and it just

wouldn't matter. And I think the same thing goes, and I think this will get better with him over time, but talking about some of the issues that the Cardinals' offenses run into at times this year, Marvin Harrison Jr. has some of those issues as well, where just the physicality that he's playing with when it comes to contested catches, coming back for the ball. I thought Greg Olson, who continues to be very good at his job, lined up a very, he outlined a very important difference in a play where Marvin Harrison Jr. had like a curl route, and then Justin Jefferson had a curl route in this game. Marvin Harrison Jr. does not come back to the ball.

Ball gets batted down. Justin Jefferson works down his stem like four yards in between two defenders, makes a catch and it's a first down. So just little tiny details about Marvin Harrison's game and just the inability to kind of impose his will on defensive players. I think that shows up right now. He's a rookie. DK McHaff is like six or seven years into his career and it's still a problem for him. And he also is probably 25 pounds lighter than DK Medcaf. So even body type-wise, it doesn't, you know, it's maybe not the thing that he's ever going to be best at that.

The last thing I'll say kind of on that, like coming back to the ball. If any of you guys wonder why the Bengals guys are as good as they are, it's because they're the best in the league at doing that, exactly, coming back to the ball. The last thing I wanted to mention about the NFC West before we move on, just a slight quirk in terms of how one of those teams played. Vikings play man coverage on 51% of their dropbacks today. Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, that's the second highest rate. Alec Lewis looked this up for us, who's our Vikings writer. second highest rate since Brian Flores

became their defensive coordinator. And I wonder, I'm curious to ask somebody there about this, is that a Cardinal-specific game plan? Or is that a, we think that we need to throw some change-ups over the final stretch of the season here because teams are getting a beat on what we like to do? I knew that they wanted to come into this year and play a little bit more man coverage,

just have the ability to do it. I still think that the corners aren't the horses to do that and they've leaned away from it. But the fact that they decided to do this against Arizona. I wonder how much of that is Arizona and how much of that is we feel like we need to start throwing some change up pitches. I actually thought Kyler, for a good majority of this game, responded very well to the amount of man that he was seeing and the amount of blitzing that the Vikings were doing. His pocket movement and his ability to make plays in

dirty pockets for the first 45 minutes of the 60 minute game were very, very impressive. Unfortunately, it just didn't matter at the end. Yeah, it didn't. That is a good point about like, why did Flores do that in this game? I do think part of it is like, they probably understand that by the time, I mean, this is obviously going to be a playoff team, right? They probably understand that by the time the playoffs come around, they're going to have to have some other stuff ready

and they're maybe trying to get some of the younger guys ready for what this is going to look like. Let's get to our next one here. The Pittsburgh Steelers put up 500 yards of offense against the Cincinnati Bengals today. They go to 9 and 3. They now have a convincing lead in the AFC. North after a 44 to 38 win over Cincinnati. Russell Wilson and this Steelers offense,

you guys have my attention. I'm sorry. I'm more just pissed off at the Bengals defense. You cannot allow Russell Wilson in 2024 to turn back the clock and have one of his, I think it was the second most passing yards he's ever had in a game. Russell Wilson, who made like pro bowls and was in the Super Bowl and all this stuff for like a decade. In 2024 today, like four years after he was at his peak, is getting the second highest career passing yards. Like, you just, that to me is crazy. And I will say, though, the part of this that feels like slightly cool, this wasn't like

BS by Russ. Like the Bengals did miss some tackles and blow a couple of coverages. But Russ had a couple of like actual turn back to clock moments. He had one where he was in the red zone and he kind of wiggles out of a sack, moves to his right, sidearm whips the pass to the end zone. I was like, I literally haven't seen you do that. half a decade that was really really cool that was the best play he made today it was that is that touchdown in front with when he climbed up in the pocket here's the

stat I have for you Russell Wilson has 17 games in his career with at least point three EPA per drop back when he has 30 dropbacks so obviously you can have a huge rate stat if you throw the ball 12 times I'm sure there are plenty of games on the two thousand he might have some locks where he threw the ball 16 times it went 15 of 16 for 230 yards and four touchdowns we're discounting those games games or he threw the ball 30 times, he has 17 of them in his career with at least 0.31 EPA per dropback. Today was one of them. He has not had one since 2020. It has been four years since he has had a game like this. And I don't think that should be surprising when we think about the Russell Wilson

experience over the last few years. But if you're talking about jumping at a time machine, turning back the clock, whatever forced metaphor you want to use, the numbers bear that out. We saw a version of Russell Wilson and an efficiency level from Russell Wilson that we have not seen in quite some time. Yeah, and it was, I got to say, like, he really did play a really, really good game. Because sometimes you can have these games where he just put up insane stupid numbers and a bunch of BS goes, you know, just kind of goes your way. But he actually played a really, really impressive game.

But again, this Bengals defense, they missed so many tackles in this game. Even the interception that Russ actually throws in this game, which was a pick six, which helped the Bengals kind of stay in this game, was not actually Russell Wilson's fault. Like, George Pickin starts to fall a little bit on his route. Taylor Britt a little bit gets away with pulling him down to the ground even though he's already falling and just picks it off and it's just like well what is Russell Wilson supposed to do he expects his receiver to not be on the ground and so even the bad play that Russell Wilson makes was not actually his fault in this game it was it was actually cool to see him play at that level

yeah the Bengals defense is disgusting but it's hard to watch the Bengals defense right now the fourth down keeper from Justin Fields to seal the game what do you think he's in there for you're not going to do anything else like why do we think why do you think he's in the game then there were other things that just it's just sad like the calvin austin touchdown he just runs right by mike hilton and it's like oh man like just time comes for all of us and the fact that mike hilton is part of the problem for the bengals when you consider all of the other personnel issues they have that's how this becomes a real big thing it's not just that they're defensive players that they've drafted that haven't turned into the players

that you want them to turn into. It's that the guys that we could once rely on are no longer guys that we can rely on. Like, Jermaine Pratt is in that conversation now. Guys that used to be solid foundational pieces of this defense are just no longer solid foundational pieces of this defense. But even when you take into account

how rough the Bengals have been on that side of the ball this year, and they have been rough, I think a game like this is telling because if the Steelers had given up 38 points in any other game over the last three or four years how many of those games do they win it's not many it's yeah it's probably not a lot it's not many and i know they got a defensive touchdown which we'll talk about in a second but the down to down consistency of the offense and they had a 56% offensive success rate in this game they moved

the ball so well this is their best passing success rate in a game Pittsburgh since week four of the 2019 season that game i i cannot even i don't remember that game i was looking up the box score today the leading receiver on the Steelers in that game was James Connor. Him and Jaylon Samuels caught like a combined 17 passes. Mason Rudolph was the quarterback. I have no idea what that game was like, but this is the best success rate dropback-wise the Steelers have had in a game since that.

Where I think you can tie those two things together, what felt the most different about this version of the Steelers' offense today compared to what they've been when there's been a higher level of volatility, he's checking the ball down. It's, it's nothing crazy. He's checking the ball down. It's early down play action. If the shots aren't there,

I'm going to dump it to the back for seven yards. They did that all game today. And then you combine that with a couple of the deep shots that they're hitting. George Pickens getting his requisite on sportsman like conduct after catching the deep shot. And that is what the Steelers offense is. But before I get serious, that was my favorite play of the game. George Pickens catches it.

It's an awesome throw. it's an awesome route with some late separation. He pushes off, pushes off, catches this ball, and immediately does like a handgun to the fans. I'm like, you can't do that. And then he dropped the ball on a defensive player earlier in the game. He got two of them. He's the funniest player in the league, man.

Like, he's the only guy who could get penalties in the particular way that he gets them. I'm not trying to be cool here, but Brojerk Jones has had a rough year at times for the Steelers. And I think that, you know, there's some, I want to be careful on how I say this. I think that there are some non-football considerations for Broger Jones struggles, you know, like motivation, things like that. I think in the preseason, you know, they were rotating guys in and out when Fontenu was healthy.

I think that they were trying to light a fire under him a little bit. So there are some things just mentally and his approach to being a pro that I think have been a struggle for him at times. After those penalties, Brodrick Jones was talking to George Pickens. He's like, man, I assume he was like, man, you just can't do that. the fact that Broderick Jones is the voice of reason here and trying to explain to George that you can't do that in those moments, I think tells you all you need to know. But even taking all of that into account, it was a very consistent and impressive performance from the Steelers offense. And again, just the type of gear they can reach with this version of things that they have not been able to reach over the last few years. And you combine that with the defense's ability to still do what they can do.

Obviously, not their best day today, but you still have Cam Hayward making his three, four, four, five plays a game. He has a sack, a TFL, and a tip ball that leads to an interception in this game. Nate Herbig has a game swing, game ceiling, strip sack, the Peyton Wilson returns for a touchdown, and T.J. Watt causes a fumble in this game. So all that stuff is still going to happen, even on days where the defense isn't rolling. And you combine that defensive prowess with what they were able to now do offensively in the right moments. And I still feel like this is just a different sort of Mike Tomlin Steelers team to the ones that we have seen over the the last three, four, five years. And that's why, and I think that's just important to take into

account when we're thinking about what this team can do come the postseason. I'm like of two minds on it because I think it's definitely better and different in the sense of instead of winning nine games and barely scraping in or being in the contention, they can now win 11, 12 games. Yeah, exactly. And like actually take the one seat, especially with Baltimore losing, or not the one seat, but take the division. Win the division. Right. Right. Yes. Whereas, especially with Baltimore losing and all that stuff. I still don't know if it makes me actually feel any better about their ceiling, like doing this to a Bengals defense that has been that bad. But I think for some of the just change that they were kind of going through, especially at the quarterback position, for them to even be better at all and have that situation where they can just jump three wins in the regular season and prove that they can do that.

That is something. And it's just another badge on the Tomlin board, man. Like that guy is something else. I don't know what the ceiling looks like with Russ. Again, they're not going to play the Bengals defense every single week. the down-to-down consistency has not been great when they played more solid defenses. They've been able to be explosive. They haven't been that consistent.

But I think his willingness to check the ball down today and his willingness to kind of feed the backs in those moments, he has not been doing that that much. And I think the guardrails they put on him offensively, I feel better about it. I don't know if I feel great about it when it comes to can you knock off like the best teams in the league. I think that's still a very big question, but I still think this is a more potent version of the Steelers than we've seen in quite a while. All right, guys, before we get to WTF, let's take a quick break.

What the fuck? The Los Angeles Chargers had a 26% success rate offensively today in an NFL game. They had 10 first downs. They had 187 yards. And they won the game. They're not even the team we're mad about here. That's the thing. And the Atlanta Falcons.

What the fuck? This game. And you can attest to this for what the Slack Channel. look like. For the first half of this game, Kirk was like, acceptable is probably the wrong word, but like a normal kind of bad. He was missing some throws. You could tell that not being able to move in the pocket was a problem. He had a pick and it was like, okay, we've seen this kind of game from some quarterbacks before. It happens. It's not your best. This is a good defense. The second half, dude, he continued to miss throws. And then some of the interceptions he's

throwing are completely baffling. He throws a pick six to Tarib still. who's playing really well this year, but he's throwing a flat route late in the down. And it's like, yeah, the guy who's been playing well and smart in zone coverage is going to jump that. There was clearly some sort of miscommunication. Because what Mooney did on that play, he like stops and starts. And it's just, there's something, there was something wrong there. But that doesn't allow you to throw the ball right to the guy in the flat for him to return for a touchdown. That's the thing.

Your response to, oh, something happened in the flat, I'm going to still throw the ball late. No, that's the area of the field. You never throw the ball late to because the corner is just going to jump it. And he does it and that's what happens. And then the third pick he throws, they are driving. Right, it's a ridiculous sentence, by the way. It's just hard to keep them all. I know.

They're driving. They're in like inside like the 15 or something. So it's like, all right, you've guaranteed points here, whatever. You have not guaranteed points because Kurt Cousin starts to like, he has to move around from a sack. He actually evades it really cool, whatever. He tries to make a throw a little bit on the run to his left. He just like throws it into a sea of bodies. And one of the charges players picks it off.

And I was like, who did you think was going to catch that? Like, it just, Kirk had one of those games that is completely, it went from normal bad to what the hell are you doing kind of bad. And there was another play in the third quarter where they had a third down in field goal range. And the Chargers, it's perfect. They drop out, I think it was, I can't. remember who it was they dropped somebody out and kirk throws it it gets tipped by puna for it was dan hadley was lined up it was mugged up so dan henley's mugged up he drops out kirk throws it

puna ford tips it and then just your tailor waxed kirk as he's throwing it the only reason that ball is not intercepted right to day on henley is because puna fordipped the ball so he had four picks in this game it easily could have been five if not for that tipped ball and he had a couple a weird misses. He had Mooney on a third and six on their first field goal drive. I don't understand what that was about. So just a brutal overall performance. The first Tarheep still pick, that's a good play by Tarheep still. Yeah, the first one, just credit to him. The sign of a well coach defense. So they're trying to bleed him out on that side with a vertical route. He lets the vertical route go, comes back on the outbreaker and makes the interception. That's a great play. The other

ones and many of the other decisions in this game can't really say that about it. So I really don't know what else to say. Like this is a team that allowed 187 yards. It's struggling defense allowed 187 yards in a game that you need to win most likely to maintain your spot at the top of the division. And instead, they lose this game to a team average negative 0.29 EPA per play with a 26% success rate, potentially with first play. in the NFC South on the line. It's brutal. It's just absolutely brutal. It's brutal. And like,

I didn't expect the passing game would go this bad, but we kind of said coming into the week, okay, the Chargers play in the exact way that the Falcons don't want defenses to play. And also there's a chance that the Chargers run defense actually plays fairly well against a pretty simple Atlanta Falcons run game. That's exactly what happened. No, I thought that I thought Atlanta Falcons ran well for like the first two drives. after that it did kind of ticked down a little bit and you're right and that's when Kurt Cousins started doing a lot of silly stuff

and so it was just as soon as the run game went away they really started having some issues in this game I don't know what to make of the NFC South because we are very very close very very close to including the Buccaneers as part of this conversation okay the Bucks with a chance to step into first place in the NFC South

instead, or a tiebreaker, right, the Falcons have the tiebreaker, but to be tied atop the division. Instead, they let it go down to the wire with the Panthers. And if they don't cause a fumble on a Chuba Hubbard, which, God, poor Chuba Hubbard, that's had this incredible season, one of the stories of the year, a guy that probably had been written off by the team that drafted him, considering they took a running back in the second round, plays so well that they extend him even after drafting that running back. and then he has a crippling fumble at the end of the game as the Buc, as the Panthers are driving to win the game.

So the Bucks need that to win the game because their quarterback probably had his worst game of the season, but somehow they managed to steal a win in a way that the Falcons cannot. That's the thing. They got so lucky in this game. The crazier thing about the Chuba Hubbard fumble is, it might have been the play right before, Adam Thielen makes an unbelievable one-handed grab like. turning behind his back. Like, it's a crazy, like, wow, you think the Panthers just won the game.

This guy just made the play of the game. It's over. And right after that, Chuba Hubbard fumbles, and it's like, how do the Bucks get away with this? Like you said, Baker probably played his worst game in the season. He had the game where there weren't that many of the good throws and you got a lot of like, really, you took that sack. Oh, really? You tried to throw that ball. Oh, why did you overthrow that? Like, all of the bad stuff happened against the Carolina Panthers defense that has not been very good and the run game was good. So it's not like he was said in a lot of these poor down and distances. It was just for them to get away with this game. It really does feel like the Falcons are a little bit cursed and the bucks are, I wouldn't say blessed, but at least not

cursed in the same way. Oh, come on. The bucks are certainly not blessed. Chris Galwin got hurt in the final 30 seconds of a blowout game and Mike Evans missed a huge chunk of the season. And they've still been one of the best offenses in the league. Like every stat you look at, the bucks are one of the offenses in football like a top five unit they've been fantastic for a huge portion of the year and today was I think arguably their worst performance of the season the other one in that conversation is the game they had against the broncos which I can barely even remember that was like two men two and a half months ago to have this game against a panther's defense that has struggled to find itself for the entire year probably a blip and a blip they managed to survive because of that

chuba hubbard play on the panther side of that actually one more thing about the bucks bucky irving really good player dude he's awesome he's very good player he he's very good player he he He's excellent. Like watching him, like what he is for the overall kind of Bucks formula. I'll be curious to see what happens with Liam Cohen this offseason. It's a very picked over group of offensive head coaching candidates. We're at a place where pretty much every single guy on that list is in year two, three, as an offensive court, as an offensive play caller, or even year one like he is.

It's just kind of the nature of how the cycles have gone recently because of what teams have been seeking out. I think he'll get interviews and potentially get a job. But if he doesn't, he comes back with this group. I would be excited to see that. I think he's been excellent. But what they've gotten out of this running game, considering what it looked like last year, is kind of a borderline miracle.

Some personnel changes, but I think just having Bucky Irving and just structural kind of switches to what they've done has gone a long, long way. Helps to have a guy with a little bit of bounce. For as much as like Rashad White can run through people, the bounce that Bruckierre O'Bring brings, it's a little bit different. Before we move on,

let's talk about Bryce Young. because this is now two weeks in a row where I've been sitting there and be like, what is happening? That's been my response. The swagger he's playing with, like the confidence that he's playing with, this is remarkable. And credit to the Panthers understanding that this was potentially possible on the other side, having a plan for this season, understanding they needed to sit him down,

and still doing whatever they needed to do to kind of be able to get him back to this And credit to Bryce Young. Like, he absolutely could have folded up shop after what happened early in the year and him going to the bench. And instead, he has responded in just a remarkable way. And really, two weeks in a row has given him his team every chance to win the game. And they just somehow have not been able to pull it out in the end. He went shot for shot with Patrick Mahomes and then had a game winning drive against

a division rival, like, like to send it to overtime. I'm like he really has been shockingly impressive. And you say he's playing with like more swagger and confidence. And I think to me that is really the difference because like he's had the accuracy before. You know he has the mind to be creative. It just felt like for a lot of his rookie season and especially earlier this year, he just didn't have that.

Like there are obviously a number of throws that you could point to that kind of speak to that in this game. The touchdown that he throws to Adam Thielen is insane to send it into overtime. But to me the play that he makes, I forget exactly when this was in the game. It was certainly late. but they're like inside the five and they run like a little boot action to the right. There's a free runner off the right side. I swear in week one or two, he just crumbles and get sacks. The play's over.

He does this little shimmy to like get out inside of the guy and then work up and make the throw into the flat. And I was like, yes, that is the stuff that you did at Alabama all the time. Just like making a guy miss and being able to make the simple play, he just wasn't doing any of that for a lot of last year and early this year. So the fact that he just feels confident enough to do that stuff and isn't overthinking it. just playing a little bit faster. It's cool to watch, man. And again, like you said, credit to him, credit to the coaching staff for not giving them up for not giving up when they did bench him.

It's just, it's been really fun to actually see a player who obviously had some degree of talent, be able to play to it again and remind us why he got picked where he did. I'd love to learn a little bit more about what the dialogue between him and Dave Canales has looked like over the course of this year. Because obviously we've seen Dave to Canales have a relationship with his quarterback's at his last two stops and really help resurrect those guys' careers. In Baker's case and in Gino's case, I think slightly different, right? Gino, and I talked to Gino about this earlier in the year. I think when Gino got to Seattle, he felt like he was capable of being the player that we've seen over the last couple of seasons.

He had this experience with the Chargers where he was working with Philip Rivers every day. And it was just kind of a finishing stroke on his football education that he really needed to kind of get to this place that he is right now. He just didn't get the opportunity in Seattle. But I think he knew he was capable of playing this way. Baker, no shortage of confidence. You seem to kind of tap back into it. For Bryce Young to not have had any success in the NFL in any way before hitting the run he's on right now, I wonder what the curation of his confidence has looked like this season. Like what those conversations have looked like, how they've tried to manage him.

Because for him to come out on the other side of everything that we saw and look like this, it's remarkable. And it's a testament to whoever has been involved with that problem. process, whatever it has looked like. I really can't say what it was either. Obviously, there's no way of knowing without being able to watch those guys. I honestly do wonder if there's some degree of, you know, when Andy Dalton came into this offense, he's not great at this stage in his career, but there was one thing Andy Dalton was willing to do.

It would just stand in there and make a throw like to the intermediate area of the field knowing he's going to get hit. Bryce Young is doing that now. That is just not something that he was doing for a lot of last year or early this year. Like he just wasn't willing to take the hits when he thought of. throw was there. The fact that he's doing it now and it's just like, whatever, man, like, we're at where we're at in the record. I need to just make these throws. The fact that he's just kind of let the game come to him in a really cool way, it's just been a lot of fun to watch.

Yeah. I mean, think about how different you have to feel as a Panthers fan right now compared to how you felt on September 20th and what the future of this looks like. I don't know what his ceiling is as a player. But the fact that you can now, I think pretty confidently, roll into 20, 25 with him as your quarterback, make an argument. We've got some young past catchers. And hopefully we can spend some resources on defense.

It's just a very different outlook for this team now than it was three months ago. And that's great. It's great for him. It's great for anybody that roots for this team because it looked pretty bleak there for a while. And it no longer feels like that. So congratulations to him. Congratulations to Panthers fans for not having to feel like you did around Labor Day weekend. We're going to hit a few more things that we saw today.

It's time for did you see that. You see that? Did you see that? Did you see that Washington's offense? It's not quite dead yet. 42 points, 463 yards in a blowout win over the Titans today. That first, like, quarter and a half is some of the most just downright beat down football that I've seen in a long time. Like, they were just all over everything the Titans wanted to do. And like, Jeffrey Simmons was on the ground way more than I thought he was going to be. I thought they did a really good job with that.

But even beyond that, like, it just felt like the commanders kind of caught the Titans a few times. Like the first touchdown they hit, they're running like GT counter out of pistol. So the guard and the tackle are pulling to the right side. They kind of catch Tennessee in a bad call where Tennessee is blitzing one of their, their linebacker to that side into the A gap. So it's like he's by design kind of washing himself down to the middle. Those pullers just spring free in front of, I think, Brian Robinson touchdown. Like just certain plays like that kept.

happening where it was like Tennessee's trying to do something and Washington just caught him with a really, really good call. And then I think the offensive line today played better than they have for the past, you know, three, four weeks where the running game, I think was a little bit more up and down, really needed Daniels. They didn't need Daniels as much in this game. It was a lot of just like, all right, they're in good calls and the offensive line is doing what they need to do. I think, you know, we didn't really talk about this that much after they played Dallas. I think in the days that followed, it was a little bit clear to understand what Dallas was doing to them. And I think the idea of the cliff cliff and whether how real it is, it requires a lot of context.

And I think where I would land on this is that early in the season, and the Dallas game is a really good example of this, Washington was doing stuff offensively that was papering over the relative lack of talent they had overall on the roster, but especially on offense coming into the year, that is one of the reasons that people pick them to be one of the worst teams in the league. And one of the things that they were doing specifically earlier on in the season is they were having these low, similar to the Rams did when they won the Super Bowl, even though their players were better, where they would be in these kind of empty spreadout formations, but they would have two chippers on the offensive,

on the edge players. They would chip both guys, and then they would release. So you'd slow down both edge guys to help your offensive lineup. What the Cowboys were doing is they were being like, all right, we're just going to put Michael Parsons over the guard then. I don't really care about what you're,

you're going to chip players that don't deserve to be chipped. You're going to be allocating resources that you shouldn't be allocating to that. And so that's what we've seen, I think. I think we've seen some of the things that have allowed Washington to transcend its talent offensively and look at times like one of the most efficient offenses in the league. Teams have figured out certain ways to attack that. And I think that you now need little pivots to overcome that.

It's not being figured out necessarily. It's that some teams have deployed things that have really exposed the fact that you're not that talented. If you put your players in one-on-one situations and you can't help them, they tend to struggle. So I think that's one thing. And then the other part of that is I saw a lot of man coverage against them over the last few weeks. And they struggled against that. And now I think we're starting to see the little wrinkles they're putting in to have answers against that. They had a slant to Terry McLaurin today when he's in the slot on a third down against man coverage.

That's what we need, right? You need to be moving around your best player if they're going to put you in some of these one-on-one situations where where's he going to be. How can we create matchups for him? So I think this is just a process of them trying to figure out who they need to be as teams start to respond to them. I don't think that there's something specific about what Cliff Kingsbury does that teams get a beat on over the course of the season. Because what he's doing right now is different than a lot of the things that he's done at previous stops. So I just think that it was always going to be a feeling out process. And I think that what that staff has done this year, I think gives me confidence that they can get through some of these lulls.

and I think that today was a very good example of that. I think that's a good point. I think given his track record, I probably have slightly less faith in Cliff overall, but I do think you make a good point that, like, I think generally most offenses and most offensive staffs are going to hit some sort of wall during the season, right? Like pretty much everybody except for Detroit,

like unless you want to call the week two game against Tampa, a wall. Other than that, like, they're pretty much the only offense that is for the most part continued to roll the way that they wanted to roll. everyone else has had these like two or three week blips where it's like you're not quite what I wanted you to be and so I think for Washington to have that especially again when you know maybe jaden Daniels wasn't fully healthy and I thought he was actually throwing it pretty well today the touch the deep over he throws to Terry McLaren where they get under center play play action dude they're like right on their edge of the red zone maybe they go under center throw a play action over out to Terry McLaren it's just a beautiful ball so I think the combination of some of those things and then again the running game the way that it's working so you don't have to be in some of these third and pass, like,

you know, third and obvious pass. Just everything started to come together today. And I thought that was really impressive. And honestly, this is a Tennessee run defense that has been really, really good. So the fact that that is what worked for them is actually the most shocking part to me. Yeah, the run game not playing well over the last few games and not being able to be the engine of the offense, I think is how other things have been exposed. And I think over the course of the season, they're going to have a hard time consistently

papering over the lack of talent that they have. Eventually, this is going to be an issue as we get down the stretch. I don't think this team is like a real contender just because they don't have the talent top to bottom that the best teams in the NFL do. This is year one of a rebuilt. Like, it's okay to be in that position. I just think that this idea of Cliff Kingsbury hitting a wall and it's just being endemic to who he is as an offensive play caller, I don't think that was ever fair in how it was being construed over the last couple weeks. So to see them have a bounce back game after their relative struggles over the last few games, I think is very nice to see. Next one here, is you see the Texans nearly let Mack Jones rally back from a 17-point

deficit and have them lose that game? This game pissed me off so bad, man, because you would think, you would think, right? Like, if this happened, it would be like, man, Mac Jones just somehow had the quarter of a lifetime. He really didn't. I don't think he played all that well. Like, he had some overthrow, some underthrows in this game, trying to put the ball into harm's way.

They just convert on a couple of, like, I swear, three or four different. times in the second half. They just converted a huge play on like a little bit on a little crosser. They hit, I think, a fourth and two to DeVernay that they get to convert. Like, just little weird stuff like this. And the Texans just continued to give up all these plays. Like I just, they're a very frustrating team that even when I should be like, I've given up on the offense. They're not good. They're not good. I've given up on the offense so a while ago. I thought the defense was like, all right, you can do enough to make me not have to worry about that side of the ball, especially when a backup quarterback is in the game, and the backup quarterback is Mac Jones,

who you know you can heat up and give some problems, and they still almost lose this game this way. Very, very frustrating. Yeah, we have Mac Jones in the game only because Azizal Shire had one of the dirtiest plays you'll see. A week after hitting a guy like four yards out of bounds. So this is something that continues to be an issue. That was one of the biggest, like, quarterback hits. The last one I can remember truly, I think, in this realm was like, Do you remember when Kiko Alonzo absolutely took off Joe Flacco's head on some other island game?

I don't remember this. This was like six years ago. And the only reason I remember is I watched way too much of the rain. You have a better memory than me, man. Yeah. This was the first time I remember, though, where I was like, wow, he really tried to smoke this quarterback who was very obviously trying to get on the ground. Like, it was just, yeah, not a good look for his he's all shy.

Yeah, I really have no interest or, you know, energy to, like, Emin Hall about the Texans at this point. They're just not good. Their offense is just not good. And this is going to be a problem against whoever they happen to play in the playoffs. And I think it's going to be a real conversation as we head into the offseason about what they need to do to get this fixed. That's the thing. Think about the wildcard teams. It's going to be one of the Ravens or the Steelers that they could face, the Chargers or the Broncos.

Those are most likely the wildcard teams that they're going to end up facing when they win this division. They lose to all of those teams, I think. Like if those teams continue to generally play at the level they've played at for this season, they're going to lose that game. It's very frustrating for a team that has won, what, eight games to this point. And I think at certain points, the defense has looked like what you want it to look like. It's just they're a very frustrating team. They're almost like the inverse of the Bengals where I think the Bengals could be like kind of a scary team in certain ways and are just frustrating and lose the games. Texans are the opposite where it's like, I don't know how you've got away with winning this many games. Man, if we could just combine the Bengals offense with the Texas team, right?

We'd really be rolling here. We'd have the best team in the league. Did you see that the Colts and Anthony Richardson had a 19 play drive to win the game today? I think so that's crazy for any team, right? I think it's particularly crazy for a team that wants to throw 30 yards down the field at all times. They tried to do that. Right, they tried to do that. And they still tried to do that for a majority of this game.

Like Anthony Richardson again had one of those 12, I think he was 12 for 24 today with two touchdowns and two picks, which is just the most Anthony Richardson scoreline possible, I think. But again, so for them to have a drive like this where you drive, what was it, 19 plays for like 80 yards, it's preposterous. Like, you're just choking the life out of the game. And honestly, they really needed that because the Patriots offense was kind of playing well in this game.

And I think Drake may would have given them a chance if he had maybe a little bit more time and stuff like that. Like, it's just, this is a very, they needed that drive at the end of this game. And they needed this game because now they're still in it. They are still alive in the AFC playoff race. If they had lost this game, AFC playoffs are essentially set. We would have known who the seven teams are in the first of December,

which is kind of wild. But because they won this game, the Colts are still alive, even if they still have a pretty tough climb to eventually get into the field. But at least it's worth paying attention to in a way it wouldn't have if they had lost this game to New England. All right. Before we get out of here,

let's talk about what we learned in week 13. You know, I think I've learned something today. I just saw yours in the show notes. All right, you can kick us off. Okay, so this is about me. This is not about the NFL. I have learned to never change an award pick that I have in the middle of a show. And in particular, not when it's the MVP, which is obviously the one that you would think about the most because it is the most important award.

When we did our award show this summer, our prediction awards, I was like, Josh Allen, man, think he could win the MVP. And then as we were doing the show talking about other stuff, I was like, you know what? Patrick Mahomes is the best quarterback in the league. The Chiefs are probably going to win 13 games again. I'll just give it to Patrick Mahomes. And now we're sitting at a place in week 13 after I just watched Josh Allen in the snow, one, catch his own touchdown in a way, because he throws a pass to Amari Cooper who laterals his back to him. And then he scored. He got a receiving and passing touchdown on the same play. I think they said it was only like the fourth time that's ever happened, which is just, of course, Josh Allen made a stupid play like

that. And so for him to like blow out this Niners team in week 13, when he's been playing like an MVPL season. It was just like the final capstone of like, wow, I feel really dumb for having done that. Made that like a irrational decision for this if you want to. I feel like you're letting me off Scott Free in a way I don't deserve. Ultimately, I'm the one who changes the name. Like it's still, I'm the head coach here. You know, this comes down to me. This is this all falls on me. Buck stops with me. I don't know. I can't blame it on you. I know we fought a little bit over it and you kind of pushed me that way, but I shouldn't have let myself fall over. Listen, this has nothing to do with Josh Allen.

It had to do with my lack of faith and what the bills could be as a team this year just because it was a reset, right? It was a soft reset. They had some questions about them personnel-wise, and instead, they're playing some of the best ball they played over the last couple years, and Josh Allen looks like a potential MVP. I still, to this day, feel very bad about that and very bad about how that conversation went. So I am sorry, and I appreciate you not putting all of this on me. Speaking of just dumb things that I have done, rooting for the Chicago Bears and caring about them is one of them. What I learned in Week 13 is bad teams stay bad for a reason. I've alluded to this plenty over the last six, eight weeks as it was very clear how this season was going to end for the Bears.

The Bears going into this year and deciding that whatever Matt Iber Fluse's defense did in the back half of last season against backup quarterbacks was a justifiable reason to bring him back. and pair a coach that whatever you want to say was on the hot seat right he had not had nowhere near enough earned equity for you to think no matter what happens this year he's going to be safe i think when they kept iber flus and i said this in the moment you're shooting for the middle right what is the best case scenario for him as a head coach i think you get somewhere that's an acceptable range where he's the middle of the road that's the high end the low end doesn't exist when you're for the middle of the road that's as high as you can go the floor is still way lower than you want it to be the floor falls out and so now 13 weeks into a rookie quarterback's career you are once again firing the

head coach and creating this misalignment where you're going to have a new coach and a new staff come in with a new offense in year two of this guy's career it's inevitable the the fact that this organization continues to make decisions like this i don't have a ton of faith in how the next decision is going to go because it seems like Kevin Warren, who is their new president, is in charge of these things. I don't think that he has shown an ability to make football decisions that would make you feel great about how this is going to go. I will say the last thing about this that just, I think, kind of coincides and is tied into this. I was talking about Thomas Brown after the news came out that he was going to be the interim coach. And my point about him and what

I said on Twitter and other places, I think was a little bit clunky and I wanted to address that. I think from the outside, I was a little bit worried, as I was thinking about this during the game against the Lions, if they fire Iber Fuss, who are they going to make the interim head coach? He is the most deserving candidate. But if you make him the interim coach, you are now screwing with the offensive formula that is now working for you and putting your young quarterback in a good spot for the first time after the first 10 weeks of the season. You're getting to a place where this experience is good for him. It is positive experience. And now you're taking a guy who has only called plays in the NFL for like six weeks when you go back this year and last year in Carolina. He going from being the passing and coordinator to the offensive coordinator to now being a play calling head coach.

So I don't know what that is going to mean for how the offense functions. There's there's downside to that decision potentially for me. But from the outside, I think he was the clear choice for who deserved the job. But I do think the downside of what it could do to the offense is worth acknowledging. Okay. I'll admit, though, that I think my response was conquier than I wanted it to be. and that he is deserving of the opportunity when you look at everybody on staff.

And if there's downside for the offense, I think there's upside worth considering with him as a potential head coach. You've got players around the league who like him. Clearly, he's done a good job in the room. I have doubts about what you can really learn in five weeks in a situation like this. And I think coming to a conclusion

where you say, okay, he's the right guy moving forward. Just because he's better than Matt Iberfluse and just because he was better than Shane Waldron doesn't mean he's the right guy for this job. You should go into whatever this search looks like with an open mind, and you should pick the best person for running your organization moving forward, because after drafting Caleb Williams,

this is going to be the most important decision you make for your franchise for the next 10 years, is who you put in charge of this. But I am open to the idea that Thomas Brown is a special enough coach, that whatever downside exists on offense by doing this, there is upside and potentially landing on him. So those are kind of my thoughts as I pour them out about this as I've thought about them all weekend. I almost don't even know where to start. I'll go back to the biggest issue being the misalignment, right?

With the head coach and like what you're doing there and what you're shooting for. Because to me, I think when you think of giving a head coach another shot when the peak of what you can accomplish is probably in the middle, maybe slightly higher in the middle. It feels a little bit like Dallas, right? Like what they were doing with running back Mike McCarthy this year. The difference is you know what the quarterback is. You know what a lot of the core pieces on that team are. Like, Dak Prescott is Dak Prescott. We know what he is.

When you have the first overall pick handed to you in a class that has some really, really good quarterbacks and you take a generational player like this, you probably should like realign your franchise to not have holdovers from whatever the regime was the last coaching staff. You should probably try to recreate this thing around this special player. And I just think the fact that they didn't do that is frustrating. And now you're ending up in a spot where, again, you're firing the offensive coordinator, then you're firing the head coach. And now you're, like you said, promoting the passing game coordinator who for two, three weeks now has done a really good job as the offensive coordinator.

But now you're adding more to his plate after he's already taken on a job that he hasn't already done that much in the NFL. Like it's just a very just does not seem like they understand how the operation of all this stuff is supposed to go. And this is not even me saying Thomas Brown is going to fail as the interim or the offense is going to be. worse. It's just that you are inviting a lot more risk and volatility than you probably needed after you finally found a little bit of stability, right? Like him calling plays gave you a little bit of something. And now the fact that they're throwing a wrench in it potentially is like, all right, man, this is like you said, this is why bad teams stay bad and frustrating. I understand why they had to do it, though, because he's clearly the most deserving person

on the staff. And it was over. Like, after that game and after the way that that game ended, it was 100% over. You guys read the story from Adam Johnson, Diana Rossini. If you didn't, There was like open mutiny in the locker room. And I understand why there was open mutiny in the locker room after the way that that game ended and after the last three weeks have gone. That being said, I still think that there is downside that is worth considering with what this new solution and setup looks like. And I think it's really important as you move through the next five games here

to be honest with yourself and say, just because he's better than Matt Iberfus does not mean he is the best person for the job. This should be a very wide, open search and consideration. The franchise should go into the, this with an extremely open mind about who the best person is to oversee the next phase of the franchise and i don't know what that exact answer is in my opinion i don't know what ben johnson is going to look like as a head coach in terms of controlling the building setting a culture all that stuff nobody does but i think that going with an offensive minded play calling head coach the best one you can

to me is the cleanest answer here and i think that we have examples on the other side of that like people are going to say well look at what jim harbaugh is doing in los angeles with the chargers jesus joseph he's in year five he's a top six quarterback he is fully baked how you need to approach this in year two with a young quarterback to me still feels different his development and you creating the best possible ecosystem for him i think i think is still the number one priority if you were the bears and if you think that's thomas brown at the end of this fine but i just think that there is a chance that this five game sample makes your decision murkier, not clearer.

And I just think keeping that in mind as you're moving through this, if you're Kevin Warren, if you're whoever's making this decision, just keep that in your head. Because there is, you can learn the wrong stuff from this five games just as easily as you can learn the right stuff. So we'll see how it goes, but how this entire thing went with bringing back Iber for this when no one would have set a word to you if you had fired him. I knew it in the moment. I hoped that it would have lasted until 2025 before we hit this wall.

instead it lasted 13 weeks and now we're back in the exact same position this franchise has been in three different times over the last 10 years it's depressing that we have to have to do this after one week just last week i got you to open up about how cool Caleb william was and all this stuff and obviously this isn't about Caleb but the fact that we're back to bears depression is like ah you can only save it for so long we'll see what happens all right guys that's all we got sincerely appreciate you listening if you're watching on youtube please like subscribe all that stuff, we would really appreciate it. If you're listening, just do the same things you always do.

If you want to leave a review wherever you happen to listen to the show, we're getting toward the end of the year. I would consider it a personal favor. If you like the show, let us know. It would mean a lot. For now, that is all we've got. We'll be back with our midweek show on Tuesday into Wednesday. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you soon.