The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 13 Recap: Division races heat up as the season heads into December

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

December has arrived, and there isn't much more separation among teams at the top of their divisions as there was back when everyone was 0-0. Three divisions—the NFC West, AFC South and AFC North—are tied. Two more—the NFC North and NFC South—have a half-game separating the top-two teams. The Cowboys now trail the Eagles by just 1.5 games in the NFC East. We're going to enjoy one helluva run to the playoffs over the next month. Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dave Helman recap all the games that contributed to those tight standings, and a whole lot more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Connect with The Athletic Football ShowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowPodcasts: https://podfollow.com/the-athletic-football-show/viewX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Hosts: Derrik Klassen and Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mayes. The week 13 recap is here. A pretty eventful week 13 in the NFL and a pretty impactful week 13 in the NFL. We got a lot of changing standings, got things shifting around. We started today's show talking about the AFC South, the Texans big win over the Colts and what that means for that division. Also talked a little bit about Pittsburgh and the Bills

and another big game from the Bills. running game and a Steelers team that is trending in the wrong direction. Wanted to start things talking about Sunday, but then we talked about a lot of the games that happened on Thanksgiving and on Black Friday just because they were massive games. Started with the Packers win over the Lions, chatted about the massive Bears win over the Eagles, the Cowboys win over the Kansas City Chiefs, what it means for both of those teams, before getting into a couple WTF moments from week 13, including the Ravens loss to the Bengals, the Rams loss to the Panthers,

which kind of created a double WTF that you guys will hear about a little bit later. But a lot of stuff to dig into today with me, Dave Hellman and Derek Klessen. Let's get to it right now. We are back with the week 13 recap. We're going to do this a little bit differently than we typically would on a Thanksgiving weekend,

just because the Thursday and Friday games were so important. Not only were they between really good teams, but I think that some of the shifting dynamics around the league because of those games, we're going to dig into a lot of that over the course of today. But we are going to start, David, with what happened on Sunday. Not the Sunday night game. Me and Derek are going to dig into that on The Hangover tomorrow. So if you're looking for Commander's Broncos talk, there was a great game.

It was awesome. It was a very fun game. We are going to dig into all of that tomorrow. So just a heads up. But we're going to start with probably the most impactful result of the Sunday slate. and that is the Houston Texans knocking off the Indianapolis Colts 20 to 16. That sends the Colts to 8 and 4.

They are now the sixth seed in the AFC. The Jacksonville Jaguars are now technically atop the AFC South. And the Texans at 7 and 5 are now one game behind both of those teams. Derek, a messy situation unfolding in the AFC South now because of what happened between the Colts and the Texans today. As someone who was like two and a half weeks ago peddling the idea that this team might lose the division and I was certainly in jeopardy of doing that and still as you know you mentioned the Jaguars are now ahead in the division. The Colts play the Jaguars still twice. They play them next week and I think maybe week 16 or 17 again at the end of the season.

So things are really in jeopardy for the Colts for a number of reasons. Obviously they lose Soss Gardner in this game. He is probably going to be out for a couple of weeks with a calf strain. I would imagine that I think hurt their game plan in this game where I think they wanted to play a lot of man coverage and dare a lot of of these young receivers to beat them. And they had a decent day on defense, but I think as the game went on, the Texans were able to hit a number of throws

that ultimately got them over the finish line. And then I feel like it's been a little bit under-talked about. Daniel Jones is clearly not healthy. And that, I think, has limited their passing game. On top of, like, I think we already knew this was a passing offense that didn't want to be a true drop-back team, but mixing in some of the Daniel Jones health stuff, on top of that already being the case.

And like we mentioned a couple weeks ago, they struggled to run on first down against the chiefs, and they struggled again today. So they're getting into these bad down and distances where it just feels like a lot of their game plan spiral. So Jones had a number of good throws that still got them into the end zone, hit a couple of chunks. But the offense just doesn't feel like it had the consistency that it did for the first two months of the season. I'm not sure how much of that as I try to like separate it all and parse it all.

I'm trying to decide how much of that feeling for the Colts offense is a product of them taking a really significant step back or them having an injured quarterback and then playing against the Texans defense today. Like where I land in all of that, I'm still not exactly sure. That part for me. That part. And the Texans are that scary.

They really are that scary. They're doing this to everyone. I mean, they did it to Josh Allen, who is the superhuman, the guy that can extend plays and do things with his feet, and he's got the insane crazy arm. Like, if they can make Josh Allen look

the way they made him look in that Thursday night game, what hope does anyone else have? And I'm glad Derek brought up the Daniel Jones injury because that came out, I think that came out after we previewed the game. Believe so. Where he's got like a minor fracture in his fibula, I think. And JJ Wadden, I and Eagle had the call on this game.

And I remember early on in the game, they were talking about how he had like a device on his shin or like a special pad on his shin to help him deal with that. And against this pass rush, I was like, guys, I do not like where this is starting. He just wasn't moving at all. Yeah. I mean, he was statuesque in the pocket.

And I think some of the best stuff he was doing early in the season is that he was a little bit, he was just better under pressure throughout the first half of the season than he had been really at any point in his career. And now the fact that he's a sitting duck in the pocket against this sort of defense, it's only going to compound some of the issues you're going to have playing against the Texans. And Derek, when I watch this defense right now, it just, how does their ability to kind of choke the life out of you on any given play is just so obvious. And there was a play, they had a sack in the first quarter, about six minutes up and they go in the first quarter.

It was a third down. And they fooled Jones a little bit with the coverage. I think that he thought he would have like a little quick hour out to Josh Downs from the slot on like a little whip. And Petrie was there to kind of trap it as the flat defender to that side. And so he had to kind of pump and hesitate just for one second. And as that was happening, the Texans have a stunt on the inside, and then both edges are just condensing the pocket. And the entire defensive line just kind of swallows him the moment that he cannot go to his first read on a given play.

And when you just watch the marriage of Russian coverage with this team, if you are not able to throw the ball immediately to a guy that is your first read, like Dalek Pierce touchdown, for example. Like, that's a play in a decision he's making immediately as the play is starting. If you can't do that against this team, they're going to affect the throw in some way. And that's what you saw throughout this entire thing, is that marriage of if as soon as you're having to take an extra hitch in the pocket,

the play is probably going to be over because of what Will Anderson and what the rest of that defensive line are doing. I feel like you felt that version of the Texans defense throughout this entire game. The condensing is such a great way to put a, because I think we conceive of them as speed rushers, right? Like Will Anderson Jr. But that's not what he is at this point. He's a pocket crusher.

They're both kind of pocket crushers. Like Hunter, I think less so. Hunter really is the race car off the edge. But like he can push the pocket on you. And then there were a number of times. Will Anderson Jr. I think one of the last plays of the first quarter, they put him over the center, Borderlini.

And he just explodes him. 14. The one of probably put him on his ass, dude. So the fact, that obviously, I don't know this for sure. I'm curious to ask maybe somebody in Houston about this. So that happened to Tanner Bordellini in the Rams game earlier this year. They put Jared Verse over him. Jared Verse explodes him.

And I wonder if the Texan staff just had a little bit of a light bulb moment where they were like, all right, here we go. And they did the exact same thing to him at some point in this game. Yeah, they were like, hey, we have one of those guys. Let's try that out. And so that worked. And then you mentioned, yeah, both of these guys, I think, condensing off the edge. And then there was even, I want to say later in the third quarter, like middle late

third quarter, there was a series on the same drive where Jones hit two throws down the left sideline to Josh Downs on critical third downs. But the second one gets taken back because Bernard Raymond gets called for a hold because Will Anderson Jr. runs him straight over. And so just the fact that this past trash can win so many different ways and force the ball to be out, again, Jones made a three or four throws in this game that were pretty impressive. And he was testing them and willing to get the ball out and make those throws. But when you're forcing the ball out that quickly against the secondary this good, you're also inviting some volatility. And like, you're probably just not going to hit on enough of those plays to win a game like this. And I know it was close, but they weren't able to do it.

That was such a funny call, the Raymond one, just because like he gets dump trucked head on and he's falling backward. And like he, I don't know, it didn't look like a true hold, but he clearly like alters his path to the quarterback and kind of pulls him down. And I'm like, well, could have been a trip, could have been a hold. I don't know. However you want to. to classify it, it's definitely getting flagged. There were a couple other moments just when, you know, the Colts are either driving in this game or they have some opportunities and the Texans just absolutely snuff it out. I mean, there was the, there was on 3rd and 10 with like 252 left in the second quarter,

the Colts run the ball, trying to set up maybe an easier field goal. And on that play specifically, Petrie just comes screaming off the edge. And Will Anderson Jr. just blows up Tyler Warren, pull. and it's a run for no gain and they end up punting on that fourth and ten. And so just those plays, they just show up consistently over and over and over again. The Colts are driving with nine and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter.

They have a second and two from the 19-yard line. Will Anderson blows it up with like a crazy TFL on a stunt, and then Petrie gets a PBRU on third down, they force a field goal. Even when you're starting to string some of these plays together, ultimately, over the course of a drive, they're probably going to get a negative play. And that's exactly what the course of the game felt like today.

And Derek, you mentioned, like, you kind of have to be perfect on some of these moments. And if you're not, that's enough to swing things. I mean, we are a Josh Downs drop on a very nice play from Daniel Jones against the Blitz on the final third nine of the game. Where Josh Downs hangs on to that bowl, there's a chance the Colts of it can potentially score a touchdown on that drive and win it. And so, but that's how perfect you have to be against the Texans defense as it's playing right now. Yeah, they are a team where if you get like after first down, if you get to even or behind the sticks, they're just going to be better than you 90% of the time, which is like, again, the way that the Colts offense was playing for the first eight weeks of the season where they could consistently do that and stay ahead of teams, probably would have been okay. But again, with some of the banged up injuries they've had, especially with Daniel Jones, maybe not being 100%.

I think it's just been trickier for them to do that. And like even outside of Jones, like the run game just hasn't been as good over the past four or five weeks. and I think that that certainly showed up today, which I think we were worried about. Two frustrating moments for the Colts in this game. They have a fourth and one when they're driving in the second quarter. Tyler Warren fumbles, the direct snap,

and it's a turnover on that play. And then the one that I assume Colts fans are just going to be losing their minds about, the no delay of game on that third and 15 in the third quarter where they get a PI on that play, and the Texans eventually score a touchdown. No delay of game. And the PI was bullshit, too.

That's not a pie. Double whammy. Like to, and you can see the Colts defenders like waving that the play clock had gone down. So you don't get that. And then Xavier Hutchinson slips and Kenny Moore gets hit for it. And that was and typically I hate litigating refs because I think all that stuff evens out. That's a tough one. But not only is it tough.

They three, two, three plays later, the Texans scored the touchdown to get 20. I mean, that is the game deciding touchdown there. If they have to kick a field goal, there's no telling how the rest of the fourth quarter. plays out. That is a rare exception where I'll say, yeah, Colts fans, you got host. In these moments where a defense is playing like this, my question is always, can the

offense hold up its end of the bargain just enough to make the defense matter? And I do feel, Derek, that we are trending in that direction with the current state of the Texans' offense. With CJ Stroud back, and beyond CJ Stroud being back, I do think this version of the Texans

offensive line is good enough, to actually give them a shot. They've settled on a five where they move Titus Howard to left guard, and then now they have Trent Brown playing right tackle. And you watch them in this game, and there are multiple moments where they're picking up stunts and blitzes, and just the communication and the overall cohesion with that group is just so much better than it has been at any point over the last two years.

You combine that with Stroud being able to just feed Nico Collins for four or five explosives over the course of this game, You get a couple, you know, 10, 15-yard chunks. Ed Ingram decleded Jermaine Pratt on like a 15-yard Woody Marks run in this game. And I do think that even if the Texans offense isn't, you know, this great unit or operating on all cylinders at this point, I still feel like they've improved enough where it makes them interesting in the AFC South as currently constructed. I agree. And I think that that's probably only going to become more true as Stroud starts to play again.

I mean, he hasn't played in a month, basically. I think you saw that especially early in this game. Like he just felt a little bit uncomfortable. I think not fully himself and started to ease himself into it, which completely makes sense. So I think you add on top of outside of the Seattle game, the way that Stratt had been playing before he got hurt. And then I think the way that he played in the second half of this game, on top of you mentioned the offensive line. It's not just that they are jelling from one of the worst in the league to like moderately functional, but they don't really play any like fierce pass rushes over the next five or six weeks.

Like they play Kansas City. They play Arizona, Las Vegas. the Chargers in Indianapolis again. So like there's some decent stuff in there, but you're not playing the Seahawks or or anything like that. And so I think they should be able to give Stroud enough chances to live. And then again, the run game has gone from, I'm not going to call it good,

but them like at least starting to knock on the door of like 38% rushing success rate, which is like a slightly below average kind of functional as opposed to being one of the worst the way that they were last year and early this year, it's at least enough that if the defense is going to be able to generate one, either extra opportunities or at points with how they've played this year, extra scores for you is like, that's a way to win. It's the same formula that has gotten Denver to 10 and 2 or 9 and 3, whatever it is. There are a couple moments in this game where, like the numbers are not impressive,

but like Woody Marks had some tough yards and they got some push at the front. And considering how hopeless they've looked at times trying to run the ball, that type of stuff stands out. And I think I said this when they beat Buffalo, but it bears repeating. I think I'm looking at this right Only two teams this year Have scored more than 20 points against Houston They're the best defense in the league

I mean I think that It's just a way the bar's not high For how good you need an offense to be If almost no one can get to 21 points against you I think Seattle has a good argument But I just think that what that front feels like And like what number 51 is playing like right now In any other year

He would have a very legitimate case for a defensive player of the year Unfortunately he's not going to win it this year because the guy in Cleveland exists and he's an alien sent from outer space. But Will Anderson Jr. is having a remarkable season. Looking at it right now, the Jaguars are in first. After taking care of business against the Titans, they have an 83% chance to make the playoffs per the Athletics Playoff Simulator, a 43% chance to win the division.

They obviously have two games left against the Colts. They also play against the Jets, the Broncos, and the Titans, the Jaguars do. The Colts still have a 69% chance to make the playoffs, but only a 36% chance to win the division. they play against the Jags, the Seahawks, the Niners, the Jags again, and the Texans. That's a brutal stretch to end the season. The fact that they're out-of-division games are against the Seahawks and having to play against the Niners, not the best final five games of the year for them.

And then 57% chance now for the Texans to make the playoffs. And they have the Chiefs, the Cardinals, the Raiders, the Chargers, and the Colts. And so we have the Colts at the Jags next week. We'll be talking all about that on the Week 14 preview. My goodness, a big day to shift around what is going on in the AFC South. The other game from today that we wanted to just touch on before moving on to a Thanksgiving and Black Friday filled, you have my attention. The bills take care of business against the Steelers.

I mean, this is just one of those games, Derek, where I watch this. And I've said this a bunch of times recently, just that the Steelers feel like the same team every single moment of every single year. and the Steelers have become the team I thought they might be tonight. I mean, another frustrating loss, a frustrating loss where the team you're playing against finds one thing they can pick on and they're doing it over and over and over again. And then you get to the end of the game,

Aaron Rogers is throwing people into the bus at press conferences. Just the movie that I thought might be like the worst case scenario for the Steelers. They won a bunch of games the beginning of the year before we're getting here, but we have arrived at this moment. and it's nice to see the bills take care of business against a Steelers team that has started to get that feel to it. The second drive of the game, I already felt like this game was going to be over for the Steelers because the bills got into, they brought their two tight ends on the field. Obviously, Dalton Kincaid was not playing in this game, but they brought the other two on the field, Dawson Knox and Jackson Hawes with one of their other receivers, got into 12 personnel,

and they were just spamming duo in weak zone runs. and like they were able to just march down the field. Eventually they got stopped on that drive like around the 30 yard line. But point being when I saw those runs just like stacked together, stacked together like eight yard chunk, 10 yard chunk, all this stuff. I was like, man, they're just going to do that for the rest of the game. And then they did. Obviously they ran for 250 yards total, but they ran the ball 20 times out of 12 personnel for 138 yards.

They had a 50% rushing success rate on those runs. And just over a third of them went for first downs. Like they were mashing them, which we've said before. And Robert, you've made this point very clear with the Steelers defense. When their front plays well, they win football games. Their front played like shit today. And they lost the game pretty handily. It's always funny to see teams find like one or two things they realize they can pick on when

they're playing against the Steelers. And the Bears game a couple weeks ago comes to mind for me where it's just like, we're just going to run all these end breakers off play action out of heavy personnel and there's nothing you can do about it. And clearly the bill saw something where, if we're getting into these 12 personnel looks, I mean, you look at the end zone angle on some of these duo runs, and there's like an F gap, right?

They're just like they're gapping them out every single play and just playing in these crazy formations where you're having to account for so many gaps on these duo runs, and then James Cook is bouncing half of them. Clearly they saw something where it's like, if we line up like this in these super, super condensed formations, and they're having to account for all this stuff, they're just not going to be able to do it.

And they were able to go to it over and over and over again. It's just one of those games where if I were a Sears fan, arriving at this point again would just be unbelievably frustrating. And, you know, Mike Tomlin said tonight. They were chanting Fire Tomlin in the stadium and he said, I share their frustration. We didn't do enough. That's just the reality of it.

And it's getting to a point now, and we'll talk about this later in the show. But I feel like there might have to be some tough conversations about what this means for the Steelers because I just don't understand how you can keep arriving at this point every single year and not do a little soul searching about what this should mean and where you're trying to go and what that looks like and Tomlin's streak is remarkable and very impressive but I hate to say that it starts to feel hollow because that is impressive to be able to deliver it. But it does feel a little bit hollow. After a certain point when you couple it with the playoff results, yeah, I mean I think that's fair. We typically get this endpoint for the Steelers every

single year where they just can't figure out how to handle these teams late in the season, these really good teams they're playing against. And this year it's happening like four or five weeks earlier where we have the feel right now of the playoff Steelers in week 12 and 13. And I wonder if it keeps kind of devolving in this way and they have to sit with it for another four to five weeks longer than they typically would. Does that make things a little bit harder to stare at when last year? you know, it's one game against the Ravens in the playoffs.

And it's like, oh, you know, we'll get back there again. If they have that feel now for a month and a half until the season ends, does the end result lead to maybe some more self-awareness and some different decisions? I think that's the big question. This isn't even the type of Bill's team that we've gotten used to plastering the Steelers over the years. That was able to do this to them. So, yeah, I think those are completely fair questions to ask. Before we move on, we're going to take a quick break.

Gentlemen, you had my curiosity. Now you have my attention. The Green Bay Packers beat the Detroit Lions 31 to 24 on Thanksgiving Day. Packers go to 8, 3 and 1. They currently sit as a sixth seed in the NFC because the best team in the NFL is leading the NFC North and is the number one seed in the NFC right now and they're chasing them and they will be here for the rest of the season.

Don't worry, we'll be talking about them too. A very impressive win for you. for the Green Bay Packers, a very impressive game for Jordan Love and also for Matt Will Fleur. I think in a lot of ways, this was the Packers team, I think on offense and defense that we've wanted to see over the course of the year, kind of them at their best, putting their best foot forward against a really good team. And so the Green Bay Packers and Jordan Love specifically, you guys have my attention. They finally threw the ball outside of the numbers. Hooray! They finally figured it out. And I do, I think this is, I think this worked for a number of reasons.

One, I think Jordan loved throwing outside of the numbers in this game was just like, every throw he put to the flat or some of the deep outbreakers, some of the deep stop routes on the numbers. Like, he was just putting it on people. So I think that was one part of it too. I think the other part of is that in the red zone, they actually did a really good job of beating man coverage and really forcing the lines DBs to to really kind of communicate or get them messed up. Like on the Romeo Dubs touchdown, they have him in like a little bit. of an offset stack with Christian Watson. And Watson's the point man. And he runs up and vertical towards the outside corner.

So the outside corner is like, okay, I got to take this guy. But then Dubs, who is like sitting in an outside alignment bends back towards the middle for a second. And then he cuts outside. So the inside DB has to race all the way to the pylon to get him. He can't get him. Love makes a really good throw. And so I think you have, again, you mentioned Matt Lafleur having a good game. I thought he did really good in that sense where we've complained a lot about them beating man

coverage and they finally had some beaters. then the last point to me, like this offense with this quarterback, you need to embrace a little bit of volatility. And I do think having Christian Watson back in the offense has actually really helped them do that. Like you see that Jordan Love is incredibly willing to just chuck the ball down the field and outside the numbers now, which I think they desperately really needed and did not have for the first two and a half months of the season. I love you pointing out that play. That was the fourth and one with like two minutes left in the second quarter. They motion dubs into that stack. And then you see the lions before the play, one of the corner's motions, like, we're going to switch this,

we're going to banjo when they eventually cross. And then that doesn't happen. And so I think that's just one of the several examples in this game of the Packers having really good plans for specific moments against this lion's defense. And the other one that stuck out to me, the Watson touchdown, is a beautiful concept where he's in kind of a condensed split and the lions are playing quarters. and so what happens is he kind of like bends it inside before bending it back to like as a fade. And so it turns into a one-on-one with that corner.

And so that concept knowing you might get quarters on early downs to take a shot, I felt like there have been a lot of games this year where it just didn't seem like Matt LaFleur had his finger on the pulse and they were searching for answers. And this is the first time in a while where I feel like there's been a synergy between the play caller, the past catchers and the quarterback on this team in a way that they've had a lot over the last couple years and for whatever reason it feels like it's just been missing there's been some element of it that's been a teeny bit off

more often than not and this is the first time in a while where I feel like it kind of all came together in a way that makes this offense feel really dangerous. Do you think Matt Lafleur just needs to doubt that he has the better team? That's a thought that crossed my mind while I was watching this game. Playing like you need to take some swings.

Yeah. Coming out and swinging like big, taking big haymakers is like because you might not feel like you can like slow play it. Yes, absolutely. He said it after the game because they, you know, they go for it three times on fourth down, which I look this up, by the way, three fourth down attempts, two touchdowns early in the game and then the game icing first down on fourth down late in the game. It's the second most EPA gained on fourth down by a winning team this.

season, which ironically, the most EPA gained on fourth down was by another team this week, which we can talk about later, but just incredible, you know, swing points in the game on fourth down. And Matt LaFleur said afterward, I'd rather go down swinging. And respectfully, I heard that and I was like, since when do you feel that way? But I'm glad you found it. Maybe it was Dan Campbell standing across on the other sideline, get some juice out of playing a team that you know was going to approach a game really aggressively. But either way, keep doing this. And I'm not asking you to be reckless,

but you can harness this for good, clearly. But I kind of do want Jordan Love to be a little bit reckless. Like, I do say he needs to play out of, like he needs to play like an idiot a little bit. Like, that's what he said his best. I think you can accomplish this without being reckless. I want him to be aggressive. Yeah.

I want, and that was the most frustrating part about watching that two game stretch when they lost to the Panthers and then they lost to the Eagles, Derek. And we talked about this. It's that I don't have any issues when Jordan Love kind of steps over the line a little bit every once in a while because I think that the rewards

that come from him playing that way are worth exploring. And when he was turning down some of these like tight window throws and not even tight window throws, just turning down available throws in those games, maybe slightly blurry moments, but balls that should be ripped.

That was a version of, Jordan Love, I just don't want to experience. If Jordan Love is going to be, is going to have some issues, I want his issues to be that he's trying to do a little bit too much. Because I think with this offense right now, with the lack of a consistent run game with some of the issues along the

offensive line, they're going to need these explosives to get where they want to go. And so watching him play this way in this game, I think is encouraging. And I think that you mentioned the word juice. Like Wicks, the Dantavian Wicks experience, you know, it kind of is what it is. But as somebody who's like always

kind of been a Dantavian Wick's truth or a game like this is a reminder that he is extremely talented. And then also having Watson, like those guys, I think are potentially going to be like kind of central to how this might go for the Packers in ways that we might have been surprised by coming into the season. But I think in order for them to hit their ceiling, they are going to need those sorts of guys to be an avenue for them moving forward. They need those two guys to continue stretching the field and they need love to feel like he can make those throws down the field. Like that's the only way this offense is going to work.

I don't, I really trust this offense's ability right now to put together efficient offense from like a schematic perspective. Like, again, some of the pre-snap like pre-packaged plays they do, some of the man coverage checks they'll get. I think their run game is efficient enough. Like they can move the ball and stay ahead of the sticks. I don't really trust them to scheme up that many explosives right now. I think in part because I don't really trust their under center run game.

You know, they can't access that, you know, maybe the Rams. the way that the Rams can, I think, at their best. And so you kind of need to just lean into this volatility of like, all right, Dante and Wix is going to run really far down the field. Christian Watts is going to run really far down the field. If we can hit two of those in a given game, even if we've got to try it 10 times and Jordan Love's got to just chuck it,

I really think that that is the best way for this offense to function. Either you all in the market for a new car. Why do you ask? It's Toyota. Toyota. It's Toyota. I mean, one time is a funny joke, but we're developing a very clear trend here.

That's all I'm trying to say. On the other side of the ball, I felt like the Packers' defense in this game, especially early in the game, last year, the thing I liked most about what Jeff Hathley was doing is that he knew he needed to manufacture pressure because their front wasn't good enough for them to win games on their own consistently.

And so they were doing a bunch of simulators and a bunch of funky pressures. And I feel like they've gone away from that a little bit, this year just because we have Michael Parsons now. And we don't need to play that way and kind of do all these smoke and mirrors type approaches when we're getting after the quarterback. And I feel like as the season is going on, we've kind of realized that that front maybe isn't good enough for them to play it straight in the way they might have wanted coming

into the year. And watching what they were doing, especially early in this game, Derek, I was like, all right, this is, I think, what you have to try to tap into as a defense if you're going to be the best version of this unit down the stretch. I mean, there were multiple different moments where they're mugged up, they're bringing like a zero look, they end up bringing five with Micah dropping. And so, and there's multiple of those. There was a third and long in the first quarter where they're mugged up again with McKinney walked down. Micah's the spinner. They bail out into cover three. Like, Micah gets home over the left guard on that play. Like, I just feel like some of those pressure looks where they're not necessarily blitzing a ton, but they're just kind of creating a little bit of confusion and using Micah as like a queen.

on the chess board and some of those looks. I feel like that is the best version of this defense. And so seeing them over the course of the game just try to steal three, four plays by doing that in high leverage moments. I think that's the approach I want to see from them as we get down the stretch here. I agree because I also just don't think the corners are that good of like we're just going to match up one on one and run deep down the field with guys. I think their corners are best when they can kind of play top down and like close on stuff.

like think all the way back to the Washington game. That's what they were doing the whole time. It was a lot of zero or a lot of zone where they were able to sit on top of stuff, know that the pass rush was going to get home or that they were going to throw some weird shit at the quarterback to make the ball come out a little bit faster. And they were able to close down. It's a lot of what the Rams have been doing successfully as well. And I think that version of their defense works a little bit better than when they're just like,

oh, we can get home with four and we'll just be able to play a little bit of man coverage and stuff like that. Like I just don't feel like that. They don't have the corner talent for that, like especially at the nickel. and like Keishon Nixon, but again, he's a guy who I think is best when he can, maybe gamble is not the right word, but when he just feels comfortable playing downhill in a way that sometimes I think they've struggled to tap into this year. Everything y'all are saying is fair, and it's just good coaching to not put everything on your star player.

Like, can we just highlight Micah Parsons in this game for a second? Because considering all of that stuff is true, holy shit, man. And I was thinking about this. I don't want to suggest Michael was having a quiet season because he was not. Like he had 10 sacks coming into the game, tied for the league lead in pressures heading into Thanksgiving. He like single-handedly swung at least one game that I can think of the Arizona game in Green Bay's favor. But still, at 1.32 p.m. central time on Thanksgiving with all of America watching, 10 pressures in one game, five quick pressures, two at, a half sacks and one of those is like in crunch time down up 10 late protecting a lead that

forces Detroit to kick a fuel goal obviously you clench the game with your offense anyway but defending a seven point lead instead of a three point lead is way less stressful like he was dominant in this game and in particular I laughed when I went back and watched it the sack that he had midway through the fourth quarter where he just abused Taylor Decker and like leapt on Jared Gough like his nickname for himself is the lion and I got it when I watch this

because he looked like a lion like jumping on a wildebeester or a gazelle or something from like 10 feet away it's absolutely disgusting and yeah even even if you don't want to put it all on him all the time to have a guy who can take over a huge division game like this

is it's a nice ace to have up your sleeve you could feel that the Lions had two back up into your offensive linemen in the game and the fact that they're not going to get Frank Ragnow back after all of that is a tough break because we've talked about it that interior is just not at the level that it has been at over the last few years and when you're missing two starters in addition to that you felt that in some high leverage moments in this game can we give a moment to Lions fans everywhere like what a

because I think that was another thing that happened after we were done with our preview where Ragnow comes out of retirement and like What an adrenaline rush where Lions fans know that's their biggest problem. And to get Frank Ragnow back, all pro, one of the best pieces of their team. And what a moment for the culture that Dan Campbell's built that he wants to come back and be part of this. And very much like, we're never going to die sort of feeling from the Lions for three days. And then you lose to the Packers and he's got a grade three hamstring tear, which, how did he not know that? I have no idea.

And then you lose. I'm on Ross St. Brown in this game for a huge chunk of the game. You get a steady, steady dose of Tom Kennedy over the course of this one. You're already without Sam Leporta. You are missing two interior offensive linemen. And now this team sits at 7 and 5 with like a 30 to 40% chance to make the playoffs according to a lot of models. And it's been a hard left turn for the Lions over the last few weeks. The fact that this team could be on the outside looking in for the playoffs is just not something I expect. a month ago. It's hard not to think about

Dan Campbell talking after the 49ers loss. It's really, really hard to get to that game. And there's no guarantees you get back. I mean, the margins were so slim in this. We talked about the Packers on Fort Down. The Lions had two four downs they didn't get, and that ultimately cost them the game. They had a fourth and three on their opening drive, I think of the second half from like the plus 45. They check into a gun run to Jemir Gibbs. That gets

stuffed. And then Jameson Williams drops that ball on the crosser on the fourth down. late in the game. And so this is still a good team. It's just that the margins have been slim enough that where a few kind of coin flip plays don't go their way. They're banged up now and it's tough

sledding here for the rest of the way for them to end up getting into the postseason. Let's get to our next one here. The Chicago Bears knock off the Philadelphia Eagles 24 to 15. The bears are now 9 and 3. They are the one seed in the NFC after the Rams lose

today. They're a half game ahead of the Packers in the NFC North. The model that we have at the athletic gives them a 72% chance to make the playoffs, which is hilarious because they're 9 and 3 and still only have a 72% chance to make the playoffs. But a team that had not had really an impressive win on their resume. They had a negative point differential coming into this one. Gets their biggest win of the season in front of a national TV audience. The Chicago Bears, the 9 and 3 Chicago Bears, you guys officially have our attention.

Derek, I don't know if you can see this since you're not here for this show, but there's like a, there's a glint in Robert's eye. There's a glow across the screen. I can see it. And I can, like, I can, there is, I think why this game probably felt so good. I know Caleb was a little bit up and down and we'll talk about that. But this was a why you hired Ben Johnson game. Exactly. They kicked their ass in the run game.

Because this is why you hire Ben Johnson, one from a schematic standpoint. Like, I thought they did a really good job with their motion and just getting read blank. ship specifically to spin where they wanted to, whether that was back into the box so they could run the other way or whether that was out of the box so that they could run where that guy just span out of. Like they did such a good job of kind of manipulating the way that the Eagles like to move the second and third level of their defense based on motion and like where the offense is aligning and stuff like that.

And then you add that on top of the fact that I thought Jonah Jackson and Darnell Wright just mauled people the entire game. Like they were like there were multiple reps where Jalen Carter. looked like a backup player. And they got more a joan a number of times. They were moving Davis a little bit. Like they mauled a front that is supposed to be really, really good. And they just moved them like for most of this game.

And so I just thought this was a proof of concept game for why you hire Ben Johnson schematically. And then his vision for the offense was, hey, we're going to get, we're going to like sign a bunch of guys on the interior and we're going to be able to move people. And I know for seven weeks of the season, it didn't really look like that. And they struggled to get there. but over the last month, month and a half, they have looked like all of that money was 100% worth it. I watched this game at a bar in Gainesville

and then I drove about five-ish hours after that to a hotel in Marietta, Georgia. What a feat of strength on your part, by the way. And got to the hotel room probably around like 11 p.m. And the first thing I did pop down, opened up the computer.

And I was like, I'm watching all 22 versions of these runs. Like that's the first first. thing I did before I went to bed on Friday. And there was one, I think, on the first or second drive that popped for like 18 yards to Menongai. And to me, this is like the perfect example of what Derek is talking about, where they have DJ Moore in the backfield.

And so DJ Moore kind of starts left and then comes back right. And you see what that does to, I think, blank and ship, it just takes them completely out of the box. And then there was a motion on that play where they changed the strength very quickly. and it leaves a huge bubble on the right side. And all while this is happening, Jonah Jackson and Darnow Wright move Jalen Carter from the three technique to that side

all the way to the other hash mark. And so you have a bunch of things happening simultaneously on this play. You have something clearly on film that gave you a tell that if you do that quick shift, you're going to get that bubble to that side. You have the motion and the movement from DJ Moore that creates an even bigger hole on that play.

And then you have your offensive line physically dominating at the point of attack. And all of those things were happening either in concert or on individual plays over the course of this game. I thought Jonah Jackson was marvelous in just physically moving people on the line of scrimmage throughout this entire one. And then Drew Dalman consistently is such a good pivot

on some of these own runs and his ability to reach people. And so you combine all of those together and you get the feel of this game where a team runs for nearly 300 yards. And what was so cool about this, and what feels so different about this is that now you have two weeks in a row where the offense won the game

before the game even started in a lot of ways because of what the game plan looked like and the levers they knew that they could pull and it looked completely different. In this game, it's all on the ground. You have all of these things that we know that we can get to and you're dominant over the course of the entire four quarters when you're running the ball.

Against the Steelers, they schemed up seven explosive passes over the course of that game. And it's just like Derek said, this is why you hire Ben Johnson. It is to give you this sort of advantage. The bears, I believe, have their eighth, I think an EPA per play since the byweek.

They are first in rushing success rate since the by week. And so the promise of this play caller with all the improvements in additions you made along the offensive line, it was supposed to end like this. And that's exactly what it feels like right now. And so to have that sort of built in advantage, because of who your play caller is on a given week or multiple weeks in a row with it looking

different. This is just a very different feel than what we are used to watching football in this town. And we talk, you know, we can say whatever we want about the Steelers game. You know, the Steelers defense kind of is what it is. To do this against Vic Fangio, who I think we all lot is like one of these smartest defensive minds in the league, even if maybe he doesn't have all his guys at times, like you know he's going to, he's going to kind of be ahead of the eight ball and really give offenses a chance or kind of give them a tough day. The fact that, kind of again, like you said, from the get-go in this game, it felt like the bears had the right approach and there were just a couple of execution errors in the passing game that I think

stalled this out a little bit longer and made this a little bit tougher than it should have. But this was very clearly a from the first drive, the game plan for this game. They knew, again, like I said, they knew exactly how to get reed blankenship in or out of the fit where they wanted him and just ran away from him whenever they needed to. And then even just again, from like a pure can we beat the guys in front of us standpoint? Like how good has Jalen Phillips been in run defense all year? And in this game, he got his ass kicked a number of times. Like there was a in the second quarter with about eight minutes left to go.

They run this zone play to the right. And Jalen Phillips is trying to spike inside so that Zach Bond, the linebacker can kind of fill in over the top of him. But Phillips gets moved so far back off the line and back towards the inside that it just like parts the red sea for I think DeAndre Schiff was the running back on that play. And it's just it's stuff like that where even Philly, was trying to throw something at them to mix up the run fit mechanics just didn't work because Jonah Jackson was just moving a guy like eight yards off the ball. And then on a day where, and the passing game was not great for Chicago, the conditions weren't great for it anyway is another really windy game at the link.

But to cap it all off with, I think they're only explosive of the day. Oh, I love the touchdown midway through the fourth quarter to Colcomette, like just sequencing and setting things up and baiting Philly into where you want them to be to put the game out of reach? I mean, even if like clearly, you didn't need Caleb to be at his best to win this game, but to get that play

for a franchise that's not used to satisfying offense, I thought that was really special. I loved the plan on that drive because it was all complimentary on what the game had looked like the entire time. It was all boots and screens. And so to give him that, I mean, his, the first option he has on that play is that throw to the flat. I mean, that's, you're trying to give him a really easy completion.

And for Caleb to move past that to fine commit on that play, I think that's a perfect example of, we're giving you an easy one, but there is an explosive there on the table if you want to take it. And then earlier on that drive, they had a play action completion, and then there was a screen to Burton that went for like, maybe it was Achias. I think it was on third and three. They threw a screen to Zakias for a chunk, and that was a first down.

And so I just think that Ben Johnson It's such a good handle on the game Throughout the entire game And then the other high leverage passing moment in this game They had a fourth and five And on that play It's just an unbelievable play by Colfson Loveland So he's a blanket ship is on him in man coverage

And this is such a veteran type move From a 21 year old player He works up into Blankenship with his shoulder And uses that to just like very subtly push off, they're never going to call that if you don't extend the hand. And so to have that sort of just feel for that moment, to be able to play with that sort of leverage, he had three catches in this game. And I walked away from this game being like, that guy's going to be a fucking superstar.

Like, he is such a good player already. And it is just, it's very cool to feel that way about offensive players on this team. I mean, anecdotally, how many games has Loveland made like a crucial play in? Even the other catch he may, if not more. off the top of my head. Because anything that has thrown his way, he is, if he can get a fingertip on it, he's going to catch it.

He had to play on a second down in the red zone in this game that Caleb, like, threw it as shoe strings and he pulls it off the grass with two hands. Like, that guy is going to be a really good player. And the offense in the passing game is still inconsistent. We could talk about the conditions all that we want. It was a bad game from the quarterback. And it's been very up and down for him,

and I think it's going to continue to be up and down as he gets settled in. But the fact that they can still win a game like this when he's playing that way, I think speaks so strongly to the infrastructure that they have been able to create in such a short time. And that's why, you know, we'll see what the, I don't know what the ambitions should look like for this year. I'm not willing to go that far down the road. When are you willing to go down that road? I think that they're guaranteed a winning record, by the way.

I would like to see them. I would like to see the defense do this to an offense that's not actively implode. I think that's what I would like to see. You're aware, I know you don't pay attention to the schedule more than a week out. They're playing the Packers on Sunday. They're playing the Packers on Sunday. And so I think that is going to be a very good test because the defense, I think the performance that they had on Sunday was impressive.

It was nice to have Jaylon Johnson back. He had a huge PBEU on a third down. The Kevin Byard interception is an insane play by Kevin Byard. He's on the other hash and wheels back around to make that play. And then obviously, Nashon Wright comes up with the play of the game. I mean, we can talk all we want about the Bears' offense and the dominance on the ground in this game. If Nation Wright doesn't take that ball away from J.O. and Hertz on the Tush push,

there's a good chance the Bears lose this game, despite doubling up the Eagles in the amount of first downs that they had. And so the turnovers have been huge. They're plus 17 in the turnover margin this season. No other team in the league is better than plus nine. And eventually that spout is going to turn off. And we'll see what happens when it does. But it's really hard not to watch so many aspects of this game.

and not be incredibly excited, if not for the rest of this season and what they can accomplish and then in what they're building right now. I appreciate your restraint and your professionalism and you're willing to look at this with a rational eye.

I commend it. It's the right way to do this. If they beat the Packers in Lambo on Sunday. I'll be painting my face orange and blue. You will do, I will force you to do this show as like a Bill Swirsky super fan.

Like you, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tolerate this shit if they were, Like if they get to 10 and 3 with a win against the Packers, the time for measured responses is over. I just, I feel so just, the encouragement and the excitement about what is being built, I think is where I sit right now.

And I think about like the moment in the locker room afterwards and just like, it's a silly thing. And there's part of me that like watching him do that. It's just like, oh God, like the pride comes before the fall in this league for everybody. Like it just, those moments if things go south are going to be. played over and over and over again. But the other part of me is just sitting there thinking, this is the guy that we thought was like too bookish and introverted to like be a head

coach in the NFL. And over the course of an entire day, he's giving you a consistent schematic advantage against Vic Fangio and then ripping his shirt off in the locker room. Like I can get behind this shit. He's just trying to help Chicagoans get free hot dogs. Like he's a man of the people. He didn't do that for himself. Yeah.

Well, we'll see what happens as they play the Packers twice over the rest of the season. They play the Lions again. these are going to be very good tests, but it is very, it's hard not to feel really good about where this team is right now. We talk about the Colts and the road that they have in front of them. It's not easy sledding for the bears over the next five weeks. We'll learn a lot. Yeah. Well, we'll learn a lot about them. They play the Packers, the Browns defense, the Packers again, the Niners and the Lions before this thing is over. And so it's going to be a telling five-week stretch. We won't get to the end of the regular season and still not know what

to make of the Bears. That's my prediction. Let's get to our other game here from Thanksgiving. The Cowboys beat the Chiefs 31 to 28. The Cowboys are now 6, 5, and 1. They are a game and a half behind the Eagles in the NFC East. The Chiefs fall to 6 and 6. Right now our model has them with a 40% chance to make the playoffs. The Cowboys, after back-to-back wins against the Eagles and the Chiefs,

you officially have my attention. Like, I'm interested to see how this goes in the NFC East here over the next five weeks. This is exactly like the drop that we run where, like, you had my curiosity. Oh, you traded for Quinn and Williams. Oh, the offense is really fun. Cool. That's nice. Yeah, you have my attention now.

Like, forget, forget the record, forget whether they make the playoffs. I'm not, who cares if they make some kind of run right now in the regular season. Is this the most entertaining team in the NFL? There can't be many more teams where like if you just have your choice of who to watch, like if everybody's playing at noon on a Sunday, this is the team I want to watch more than any other. And I'm a little biased when I say that. But like what a blend of entertaining facets of a football team. I don't think he's wrong. I think he's right.

I think just in terms of like, who do you want to watch play football the most? I think he's actually right. They have like a top six offense. I think when everybody's playing. and the defense is not great, but the front has some guys and you're going to get some terrible plays by the secondary,

but you're also going to get some sacks and TFLs. I do think in terms of like entertainment factor, they're kind of good. And also for me, this is, this might be me personally. When Dak is on a heater, he is like one of the coolest quarterbacks.

He was incredible on Thursday. He was incredible. After the pick, he played one of the best quarterback games of the season. Like full stop. Yes. He opened the game too. Like on that,

interception, by the way, he's getting heated up a little bit. And so part of me was like, well, you know, he kind of gets hit, kind of, you know, all that stuff. Derek, he's throwing that pick anyway. He got smoked. Well, yeah, but he's throwing that pick anyway. Like, if you watch it, he, that ball's getting picked off regardless of whether he gets hit. And so I wanted to give him a little credit. And then I was like, uh, he's sometimes he just does that.

And then after that, like, as the rest of the game went on, he was 11 of 15 on third down. And that is including George Pickens dropping a ball straight out of the half. Like, he was. And all of the downs that they needed him to be good, he just said, hey, C.D. Lamb has a one-on-one. Hey, George Pickens has a one-on-one. One of those guys are going to win. And he was right basically every single time and put it on him every single time. After the interception, he went 15 of 18 for 190 yards against the Blitz.

I mean, and there were so many moments in this game where there, 422 left in the second quarter. It was probably my favorite one. The chief spring of pressure and. and Chamari Connor comes unblocked through the B gap and Dak is like drifting back into his right just enough and he throws a comeback to Pickens before he's even out of his break while drifting away from pressure on that play. Pickens makes the catch, turns it into an explosive play.

I mean, there are four or five of those over the course of this game where the third and eight with 13 left in the fourth quarter, there's a cover zero and he's backing up as, they bring this cover zero. He throws a slant to pick and he takes it for 30 yards. On the touchdown to Williams on the dump off in the red zone, he extends the play and Tyler Booker had multiple fantastic moments in past protection in this game. He had one against Chris Jones on that play. But he extends the play, slides up to his right finds Javante Williams. Like his ability to sort through pressure, feel pressure, navigate it and still be delivering strike after strike after

strike in this game. It's truly outside of the pick, after the interception, one of the best quarterback performances of the entire season full stop. That was the most impressive part of it to be because sometimes you'll get these games where guys are beating the blitz and it's kind of just a lot of pitch and catch, right? Like, they see where the void is and they just chuck it in there. But like you're talking about, I thought

Dax's pocket feel and his ability to buy three quarters of an extra second so that he can get this ball off. Like, he did it almost throughout the entire game. Like, he was phenomenal. Like, you have to have not only the ability to see the defense and be confident that your guys are going to win all that stuff. But you also have to know that you're going to get smoked on a lot of these. Obviously, he did on the interception. And like, I think that's another thing, too, that I really respect about DAC is that he's

always going to be willing to keep throwing. The fact that on the first drive, he gets his head taken off while throwing an interception. And then for the rest of the game, while getting heated up consistently with all these blitzes, is like, I'm just going to keep chucking it and we're going to be good. And they were good. Like, he was just phenomenal in this game. Like, when he is on a heater like that and playing, it's especially cool. against defenses like Spagnolos, where you know they're going to do a lot of weird stuff,

and he's beating it by being smarter and being more confident and putting the ball on guys. Like, he's just at his best. He's one of my favorites to watch. And this was a peak vintage, whatever you want to call it, type of DAC performance. We didn't talk about the Eagles, really, in the Bears Eagles moment because we're waiting to do it here because I want to talk about the NFC East Outlook. You compare what DAC did in that game to the way that J-1 Hertz and the way that that passing game looked against the Bears. And that's why I think you can start talking yourself into. the Cowboys potentially getting hot here and the Eagles falling off.

I mean, there are multiple frustrating moments in the Eagles passing game on Thursday, but the one that obviously is going to stick out. I mean, there's the cover zero look that the bears bring. And people are knocking Jay one Hertz for not getting the ball to Dallas Goddard, who's wide open on that play down into the red zone. He's never getting to Dallas Goddard. Like, that play is, that ball is going to Devante Smith because you have to make a choice immediately to throw that ball.

He just misses. And so J-1-Herts for all of his warts, and for all the struggles of the passing game for the Eagles, inaccuracy is very rarely an issue for this team. And so now the fact that he's going to have that sort of game on top of everything else going wrong with the Eagles' offense, that's where things start to get very concerning. And then you contrast that with the way that the Cowboys' offense is playing right now

and just how locked in this team feels. And I don't know, man. Obviously, the Eagles have the leg up and the inside track to do this, but I do not think this thing is off the table if the Cowboys continue to play this way. How could you, like with a defense that's good enough to make DAC viable, which I actually, I was curious,

this is only the third best EPA per dropback of DAC's season. That's how good he's been this year. That pick was, that is doing a lot of work there, I assume. Not only that, this is his best in a win. Because you're talking about the tie against Green Bay. You're talking about the Carolina game where Carolina didn't let,

him touched the ball for the last seven minutes of the game. So if he's capable of playing that way and the Cowboys forced the Chiefs to punt on three of their five second half possessions, I lived with this team for a long time. I've never seen a Dallas defense get clutch performances like that. And on top of that, also coupled with DAC playing this way. Like for Dak to play punch for punch with Patrick Mahomes in his best game of the year. Like Mahomes had an EPA per dropback of point four.

He was incredible and just couldn't get over the finish line against Dak Prescott. That's that's never been uttered ever. I said it heading into this game. Like, Dak was 0 and 4 against Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson. Like he typically has not been able to piece games together like this in winning efforts against the league's elite. And I know the chiefs are six and six. They're not their usual selves.

but this still felt very meaningful to what they typically are in these spots. And for Dak to get that performance with a defense that was able to hold up there into the bargain, yeah, I wouldn't want to bet against them. And I mean, it's going to be tough with what they did before the trade deadline. But it's going to be fun as hell to watch them try. I'll promise you that. There are multiple moments in this game outside of beating the Bliss as well as he did. The other thing that they just consistently burn the chiefs for,

the chiefs had a lot of like funky pressure looks or mugged up looks where they're trying to like shoot people out like bolton's walked up to the line of scrimmage he's got a scream to the flat, Dak made them pay every single time they did that in this game and there was a play where they dropped a menahoo into coverage and they had like a funky pressure look on a third nine he just like rips a little bender to I think it was cd lamb on that play and so just he had an answer for everything and it just when they're playing at this level I feel like they are they are really dangerous I will say this about the other side of the ball. If the Chiefs don't shoot themselves in the foot with a million penalties in this game,

there is a good chance they still win this game. I mean, on offense, so they had multiple defensive pass interference that became, you know, crucial moments in this game on defense. Watson had a couple, Watson at least one, I think McDuffie had two. And then on the off. The one on Watson, I thought was iffy. But like you hear a lot of chatter about the DPI after a game like this, I'd say there was one, maybe two that you could complain about. The vast majority I thought were completely... The one at the end of the game was kind of

tickey tacky too. That was the one that stood out to me. But even beyond the defensive penalties, on offense, they had a Caliando hold in the fourth quarter that a torpedo to drive. They had two Josh Simmons holes that torpedo drives in the second quarter. They had an OPI on the first drive of the third quarter that killed another

drive all day. They were in plus territory. I mean, the chiefs were moving the ball in this game, but, I mean, you have four 10-yard penalties that destroy drives, it's going to be really, really hard to win. And that kind of speaks, Derek, to where I think the Chiefs just are overall this season where if they're not going to be super, super explosive,

and you're not going to be a dominant team and you're going to have to live on the margins a little bit and play all these close games, they're going to be games like this where those four or five plays don't go your way and you fucking lose, and now you're sitting at six and six on the outside looking end of the playoffs. Like that element of this game

feels like a very telling microcosm of what this chief season has felt like overall. They have in this game, you mentioned all the penalties. The chiefs gave Dallas five first downs via penalty. Dallas did not give the chiefs any. And then like you mentioned, three or four times they put themselves in these second and 20s, first and 20s, third and 18, whatever it was, because of some of these penalties. So you have them shooting themselves in the foot that way. And then early in the fourth quarter on a third and eight, Patrick Mahomes kind of like shimmies around in the pocket for a second puts a, on Rishi Rice chess and he just drops it.

And like it was just stuff like that all game where I think we were pretty excited about what getting Rice back into this offense might do for this team. And I know that they've done a lot of force feeding him and he's had a couple of moments, but he has not felt like the difference maker that he was towards the end of his rookie season where they could kind of out of thin air almost generate explosive plays with him. It just doesn't feel like they can do that as consistently. And if worthy is not necessarily going to be like a reliable outside receiver. if Travis Kelsey's not going to be the explosive guy that he is.

If their run game is going to not really give you that many explosives, even if it's slightly better than it was last year, it is a lot of, hey, Patrick Mahomes, you have to be perfect. And in this game, he was pretty damn close. It's just that that is not always enough when the other team can also go and put up 30. It was very striking how many un-cheafs-like things to him to happen. Like, Derek just shouted out the rice drop. Dak could have thrown a pick to Mike Edwards down in the red zone, laying in this

game. He breaks on it on second down and just Edwards can't bring it in. Very next play, George Pickens fumbles and Cavante Turpin manages to fall on it. I was watching it again. As somebody who's seen a million cowboys collapses, I was like, what's going on? The cowboys are doing all the things the chiefs typically do. And it's just been, it's been that type of year for Kansas City so far. They've a 40% chance to make the playoffs. And so they'll need to get hot down the stretch here. And now you're likely without Josh Simmons. a huge chunk of time after that wrist injury that he suffered, you're already without Trey Smith.

It's just hard to imagine this team finding that gear the way that they'll need to. And it's kind of a strange place to be. We don't have to do it now, but there'll be a conversation to be had here over the next week or two if they lose another one about, and even if they don't, about whether the chiefs deserve a spot at the table based on how things are currently looking.

And it's just a very surreal place to be on December 1st talking about the fact that the chiefs might not. not make the playoffs, but that's the type of season that it's been for them. Before we move on, we're going to take one more quick break. What the fuck? The Ravens, who we all thought, you know, everybody's healthy. You know, they'll go on that sort of run down the stretch here. They lose to the Bengals, 32 to 14, get blown out.

Still have a 66% chance to make the playoffs and win the division because of the current state of the Pittsburgh Steelers. But with Lamar back in the lineup, and Lamar looking healthier than he's looked in this game. He looked explosive. He was moving around better than he had been over the last few games. The offense still, negative 0.33 EPA per play, 43.9% success rate, 3 of 10 on 3rd down. They had 16 first downs over the course of this game against what has been a historically bad Bengals defense for a good chunk of the season. Baltimore Ravens. What the fuck? How bad did you actually feel about them losing this game?

I know the score. Bad, bad. Bad, bad. What do you mean? Okay, here's why. They moved the ball, they move the ball relatively well. You're insane. You're crazy. You're crazy.

They had insane turnovers. They were funny. I don't think it was that. I'm worried about, I will say this. I'm worried about the defense. The offense I did not come away like that scared about. Oh, you're, you are nuts. Did we watch the same game?

You watch that game and you're not worried about the Ravens offense? I'm worried about their ability to pick up the Blitz specifically in this game. But like, again, they were moving the ball. for large parts of this game and just had a bunch of funky, likely fumbling out of the end zone was ridiculous. Lamar has the tipped interception. Like, again, I don't think they were great by any means. I just think that this game ends up looking a lot worse on the scoreboard than it felt watching it back. Here is the reason why I think that is a bonkers opinion.

We talked coming in to this game. Dave asked a question, which team would you be freaking out about more if they were to put up a stinker on offense? in week 13, the Eagles or the Ravens. My stance was, it'd be the Eagles. Because with the Ravens, I could at least talk myself into the idea that when Lamar is healthy, their offense is going to be good enough

that I'm not really worried about it. He looked healthy in this game, and he was actively bad. I just don't understand how you can watch the way that he played down to down in this game and feel good about the Ravens' overall outlook. He is not playing well.

And that has been really, true for most of the season. He played much better in the second half. In the first half, he was bad. He missed the first throw that he misses where they have the play action. He missed so many throws in this game, Darren. He is all over the place right now. He was all over the place, but they still moved the ball well.

And he looked healthier. Like I, again, I don't. They were playing the worst defense of like the last 20 years. I just did not come away from this game like long term. What are they going to look like for the next five, six weeks? Is this like as concerned as I thought I was going. going to be, which is not to say they played well in this game. I just think that like structurally it didn't look that bad.

Like I really think to me, I do think they need to commit to running a ball a little bit more. Which I think he's going to help him. In this game specifically, yes. In this game, specific areas would be a good idea. But like I just don't feel like Lamar is just going to miss throws for the next month and a half. Like I just, you know, which is, again, he did in this game, but I just don't feel like that's something that's going to hold.

He doesn't do that. Here's my issue. The missing throws part of it, I agree that that's not often a consistent issue for him. I think it's compounded with how unsettled he looks in the pocket right now. And there are a bunch of different examples. On the play where on the strip sack in the first quarter, the Bengals are in Cover Zero.

They bail out of it. He has flowers on the little wrap inside, but he gets maybe spooked a little bit by Barrac Carter dropping and he turns it down and he takes it and it's a terrible result like he turns it makes a bad play and makes it so much worse

so that play my issue is he's not throwing the ball to open guys when they're open. I don't think that was open. That one's blurrier. There are worse examples over the course of this game.

Even the play where he ends up getting the ball to likely on that 30-yard completion, he has Andrews wide open and turns it down before running around and extending that play. He's bouncing around the pocket in ways that seems strange.

He's like taking off at strange moments. I just don't think he's seeing it very well right now. When you think about how the Ravens' offense felt last year, he was in total command all the time. He never seemed unsettled. he never seemed sped up. He was so comfortable every single time they went back to pass. And when you watch him this year, it just doesn't feel like that.

And it hasn't felt like that since the beginning of the season. Even when the results were okay, I just don't feel like it was the Lamar Jackson. We have watched for the last couple years when he was the best player in the NFL for long stretches of that time. He is not that guy right now. I know he's been banged up. He did not look banged up in this game. And so if we're going to get this version of Lamar over the next six weeks, I just don't have that much faith in the Ravens' offense turning this thing around.

I just with him looking more explosive, I just don't think we will get this version of Lamar over the next six years. I have more fit. Maybe I just have more faith that as he gets to play a little bit more, coming back from the injury and hopefully looking healthier, which I'll admit, I said coming into the show, I was not sure we were going to get him looking healthier. And he did in this game.

I just feel like if he gets two more weeks to like kind of settle into things. And again, it's not like they have that hard of a schedule to even get to the playoffs. Like I'm not saying they played very well in this game. I just thought I was going to come away a little bit more scared of it than I was. Oh man. I felt the exact opposite way.

Are you watching it? Which is funny because I, watching the Eagles, I was like, oh, they are completely screwed. I think they have nothing. So which I came into this being like,

ah, if they have a bad game, it'll probably be fine. They have the defense. I mean, Lamar Jackson is a better quarterback than Jalen hurts. But I don't know, man. This was this was Cincinnati's best defensive

success rate of the season. And the only games where it's even in the same neighborhood are the season opener against Cleveland starting Joe Flacco and the game a couple weeks ago where Aaron Rogers hurt his wrist against the Steelers. How? And if obviously I'm sure even if he looks healthier, I'm sure Lamar's not fully healthy. I can appreciate that. But if Lamar's available and the meaningful pieces of Baltimore's offense are healthy and

playing, how can Cincinnati have its best defensive performance of the season against you? Like, that is, that's tough considering the offenses that we've seen just wipe these guys off the field. I don't think he'll be as bad moving forward as he was in this game, to Derek's point. Like, I mean, you get the amount of throws he missed in this game. I mean, he has Zay wide open on an outrout on third down late in the first quarter, sales it. He has Andrews, it's wide on like an outrout. off play action in the second quarter.

He had a dig to Zay in the fourth quarter that he missed high. He skipped a little bubble screen to Keaton Mitchell. It probably wouldn't have been some crazy explosive play, but it was pretty well blocked up to just not even get it to a guy who's standing out at the numbers on the line of scrimmage. The other one I was thinking out, he had a likely on like a crosser late in the second quarter. He sails it by like 10 yards over his head.

And so I don't think he'll be that bad, but I just, even if he's not that bad, are we going to get Lamar Jackson as we've come to understand over the last couple years? And I have my doubts about that. I just do based on how the season is gone. I don't think we'll get like MVP Lamar Jackson, but again, I feel like if he starts to look a little bit healthier,

this is going to come back to Earth a little bit. But if we don't get MVP, Lamar Jackson, and they can't run the ball efficiently, what is the Ravens offense? They kind of did run the ball well in this game. They just stopped doing it. They did it against the Bengals. They ran the ball efficiently against the,

Bengals. They've not been able to run the ball efficiently for most of the game. You still have to check the box efficiently against the team that you're playing. And they did. They should have just committed to it more. Like, one of their best plays early on was they had that toss to the left side and they cleared everybody out and they just like stopped doing it for whatever reason. We don't need to do a table conversation tonight. But who do you all feel better about right now heading out of week 13 December 1st? Don't make me do this. The six and six Ravens on top of a shit division or the six and six chiefs in third place despite?

looking a hell of a lot better statistically than the Ravens. I just think the Ravens because as a team. Yeah, they have Patrick Mahalms playing the way that he's playing, of course. But the Chiefs have a 40% chance to make the playoffs. The Ravens are going to make the playoffs very likely. That's fine. I'll take that. I'll take those.

Right off Joe Burrow at your own peril, sir. Speaking of that, let's talk about that a little bit. The Bengals, I mean, he made like four or five crazy plays in this game. It was very nice to have him back. I mean, the throw he puts to chase on the go ball against Marlon Humphrey late in the second quarter, just drops it right in the bucket. And then several other ones. The Tanner Hudson touchdown is an incredible throw and catch by Tanner Hudson against Kyle Hamilton in that moment.

And then the Yoshavos one, he throws a strike on that scene ball with Roquan chasing him. It's an incredible blitz pickup by Pryan, by the way, on that play to get a piece of Gilman and let Joe step up in the pocket and make that throw. But I mean, it's, I don't, I'm not sure how much of it would have mattered with the Bengals defense playing the way that it did, but it was a pretty stark reminder

of what this offense can feel like when Joe Barrow was playing football. Between, Dak did what he did at 3.30, and then I wrapped up my Thanksgiving with Joe. Not the best game of his life, but Joe just looking like Joe in his return, it was a very nice Thanksgiving for myself. Let's get to our last,

Let's get to our last one here. The Rams and the Panthers, I think, are deserving of WTF treatment in this game for multiple reasons. The Panthers knock off the Rams 31 to 28 in a crazy game. So let's start with the Los Angeles Rams. The Rams, you're supposed to be the best team in the NFL. You lost to the Carolina Panthers who got beat up by the Niners last week. What the fuck? The other part of this, the Panthers.

You got beat up by the San Francisco 49ers last week. You lost to the Saints at one point this year. You've scored 13 or fewer points six times. You have two 25 point losses. And you also have wins over the Packers and the Rams. The Panthers, not necessarily in a bad way. What the fuck? This is way more, if I'm being honest,

this is way more about the Panthers than it is the Rams for me. Because the Rams belong in what the fuck if they just play this awful game. And a bunch of zany stuff happens, and it's like, how can you let this game get away? The Panthers outplayed the Rams. The Panthers outplayed the best team in the league pretty consistently over the course of four quarters. I don't know if I believe that. Did they? Yeah, I thought they did.

I thought they did. The Rams had a 58% offensive success rate in this game. Hey, they threw two picks. A Red Zone Interception and a pick six and they still almost won. Here's the thing, though. Not like turnovers are not created equally. These were earned turnovers. These were good turnovers.

Like the tip ball, even the tip ball, first of all, it's third down deep in the red zone, like high reds or low red zone, third down. And Derek Brown just destroys the Rams center, just clubs him and has the throwing lane all to himself, bats it down, throw never has a chance. It happens to get picked off, but even if it doesn't, the Rams are going to kick a fuel wall in that circumstance. the Mike Jackson pick six. Phenomenal coverage. Like Mike Jackson saw Stafford going to throw this ball before he did. It would have had to have even been, it would have had to be perfect to be complete. And Stafford left it inside and it's a Panthers touchdown.

And then obviously, Derek Brown again, let's shout out Derek Brown for just being an amazing player that will never get talked about by most people because he's on the Panthers. But phenomenal day, like earned turnovers on that part. And then the Panthers ran the football. They were like, hey, the whole giving the ball to Rico Dowdle and Chuba Hubbard's pretty good. Maybe Rico Dowdle should come out of this game with more than six carries, said Dave Canales, while he was harusing the wreckage of the Monday night game against San Francisco. And they weren't even that good at it, by the way.

Like their success rate, all that stuff. It's nothing crazy, but that's kind of the theme for the Panthers season. Like they're not big on the explosive runs. they just steadily grind you down and you throw that in with five or six clutch Bryce Young throws and by the way, I mentioned it earlier in the show most EPA earned on fourth down

of any team in the league this season. Monster plays on fourth down. Yeah, Dave Canales, dialing up the right plays on fourth down. So even if the Rams are a better team in a vacuum over 13 weeks, I thought the Panthers outplayed the Rams in this game. And my WTF is just,

how are you the same? team that I watched on Monday night against San Francisco. Yeah, that's what we're getting at. I think that down to down, I think it was a pretty even game, I guess is what I could say. The high leverage moments went the Panthers away several different times over the course of this game. The two fourth down throws, I mean, the fade that Bryce drops in to Jalen Coker in the

third quarter is just an absolutely beautiful throw. And then the throw he drops in to Tetaro-McMillan on the fourth and two touchdown is a beautiful throw. I mean, those two plays, beyond the Panthers. I think the Panthers right now overall, in terms of the inconsistencies. I think they are a team that is trending in the right direction. They're a young team. They're, I think, an exciting team in a lot of ways.

I said it coming into the season. I was hopeful about the overall direction of the franchise and some of the things that they have done. And I still feel that way, even if it's imperfect. And that's kind of, I think, we lead to some of the inconsistencies. but it's most pronounced with the quarterback right now because I just don't know what to make of this. Like he has a game like this and I'm like, all right, well, you know,

it looks pretty fucking good. But there are other moments where it's like, I think they should bring in competition for him next year because I feel so good about so many areas, other areas of the roster. And so it's just hard to square like what this is all supposed to mean with this team. With the franchise overall, I think directionally things are going in the right, going the right way. It's easy to get excited about all of this.

But how the quarterback fits into that, I still don't know exactly where I land in all of this. He's like the worst kind of young-ish quarterback who has already had some struggles to watch because I do think like his best three throws in a given game, especially when he's really aggressive the way that he was, especially on that fourth and two to Tetaroa McMillan, they look really good.

And he can put like some nice touch on the ball, that sort of thing. I just think down to down with him. I still struggle to see what it's supposed to look like long term, which kind of goes back to, I think, the point you're making of like, somebody, maybe you bring in some competition and they can be a little bit more stable, and then you just hope that maybe some of the other star players on the offense give you the explosiveness you're going to get.

I think I'm at a place where, and what, it was, it's the funny thing about the Panthers. It was three, four weeks ago after they lost to the Saints and scored seven points at home, where we were like, is this, is this it? are we writing like are we just calling it an era for Bryce Young and now I'm at the point where I don't know if you have to bring in competition but I'm comfortable picking up the fifth year option and just playing this thing out you know like because they have that available to them in the spring is the fifth year option on his contract as the number one overall pick play it out with him try to make the team around him better at the I mean like spin this off season one more go

round. Like this year was about making it functionally mediocre. Give it one more year. You don't have to make a long-term commitment. The options already built into his contract. That's where I'm at with it. If you want to bring in some competition, I guess you can. I wouldn't use my first round pick on a quarterback. No, that's not what I mean. I just mean like sending some sort of veteran that's not Andy Dalton and just giving yourself some optionality because I'm with Derek. Like the best three or four moments, like I want to believe in this. After what happened in the back half of last season, I really enjoy watching him play when he's in this sort of mode. But I just feel like the downside and some of the low lights this year have been so dramatic.

Even in this game, like, there are certain plays where I can't remember exactly when it happened, but there was a, the pocket just starts to collapse and he just kind of like turtles over in the pocket. Like it just, it there, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, like the best plays and the worst plays where sometimes the physical limitations just don't matter. And then sometimes they matter so much. And I just don't know where I land between those two things because I think so much of what they're doing and so much of what they built is really exciting. And I just don't know if he's good enough to make it all come together

in the way that they'll ultimately need. I think for me it's like he can and is a totally playable quarterback as like the 24th best starting quarterback in the league. I just struggle to see someone with some of those physical limitations being anything better than like the 17th best quarterback, which at that point is not someone for me I want to have on like the fifth year tech. Well, I'm not going to get carried away because you can't just hand wave the bad moments we've seen from the Panthers. That's what makes them so frustrating is they have three plus just abysmal losses on the season. But we keep going back to what we said in the preview. They look like they're not going to pick in the top 10.

And so there's a lot of good stuff happening. So I think Bryce has done enough and I'm not like I said, not trying to get carried away, but he has done enough to make me think especially when you're not having some crazy draft pick that's going to be in the top five or the top 10, he's done enough to make me think, all right, let's commit our resources to putting an even better team around this guy. we do not have to sign him to a longer term contract than what he's already on and let's see what we have. And yeah, the fifth year option is expensive, but not by like quarterback market standards. And yeah, I think I would try to slow play this thing.

And I think there is a ceiling on what Bryce can do with you. But with a better overall roster, I do think that ceiling could be, could still be intriguing. I don't know. Am I in denial by saying that? No, I guess my question is like, how good is. the overall roster around him have to be. Because getting Jalen Coker back and having one more viable receiving threat,

we've seen how much that matters. Today, I think it was best kind of expressed today in watching what he looks like when he's able to play with a clean pocket. Like when he isn't pressured, it can look really, really good. And that was a good chunk of this game today. When he was not pressured, Bryce Young in this game against the Rams,

who's 13 of 16 for 183 yards and three touchdowns. When he's able to play from a clean pocket or he's making really quick decisions, it looks great. I just worry about what it looks like when things start to devolve a little bit because I think that's where you see the limitations start to crop up.

And I don't want this, the Rams, the Panthers had an incredible win today and the Panthers are trending in the right direction. It's been a really exciting season. I don't want this to seem like we're taking away from that. I think part of the reason this becomes such an urgent question is because so much good stuff is happening right now

that I think that it only increases your need to get an answer on who the quarterback is going to be because there's so much other promising stuff that you're in the midst of building. That's kind of why it's at front of mind for me where it's like I don't know what to do with this and I genuinely don't know what to do with him or with this team right now.

I know I'm excited about it. I know I'm encouraged by it, but I don't know exactly where I land. I don't have a strong rebuttal to that, which is why the Panthers belong in this section, to be honest with you. They are a mystifying team. And I want to be, I want to defend them more fiercely,

but we've had several, how many shows have we done this season where we're sitting here looking for answers? There has never been in my experience, whether it was over the course of multiple years, whether or just between weeks, there has never been anymore. It's so over, we're so back quarterback than Bryce Young. You know what? Actually, and I'm contradicting myself because we do this live at 12.30 in the morning on Sundays.

Maybe you don't pick up the option and you let him play out the fourth year of his deal. And if he forces you to tag him, then that's a good problem to have. I like that solution a little bit better. I just feels like you're tying yourself to a little bit less. You know what I mean? And also like they're going to end their season. I know they get their buy next week. And then they get new ones after that.

But they've got to see Todd Bulls and Mike McDonald to end this season. I feel like we're going to get some clear answers by the end of this. I think part of the reason, the Rams are a really good defense too, but I think part of the reason that it looks so good today is that the pass protection was really really good. The tackles were phenomenal on so many of these moments. And so I will see what happens against those defenses and how we feel because it does feel like we're just vacillating wildly

from week to week with this team because that's who they've been. And that's the normal growing pains of being a team that is in the midst of rebuilding. And again, you're like in the early stages of, of all of this, this stuff happens. And I want to root it in this again before we move on, just very clearly. The only reason that this becomes such an important question is because of how many good things are happening in Carolina.

And I want to make sure we're acknowledging that because they feel like a vastly different team than they felt like last year, even when he was playing pretty well. All right, let's finish this thing off here with talking about a few things that made us feel romantic about football in week 13. I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty.

Derek, what do you got for me? What made you feel romantic about football in week 13 of the NFL? So for me, I think it's important for everybody who watches this sport or any sport to have a couple of just like mid players that you love. And one of them for me is Tyrod Taylor. And seeing to Rod Taylor, he played a pretty decent game, by the way. He had the chunk touchdown down the post to Adonai Mitchell. He had a couple other really nice throws in this game. and then at the end, when they needed to tie it, they're on the 10-yard line.

He gets outside of the pocket, vintage to Rod Taylor, and scrambles to get into the end zone and ends up tying the game for them. And then eventually they go on and win the game. For him who has, he's had such like a just, I think, fun little career. He was obviously the Ravens backup for a while, fifth or six-round pick, ends up going to Buffalo and having a really fun three or four-year stretch that preceded the Josh Allen era. He was kind of like a very good Alex Smith-ish, like to Patrick Mahomes type. of bridge for that team. They were really fun

with Greg Roman and stuff. And then since then, he's been one of the best spot starter backup types that you can have in the league. And so to get what felt like a very throwback Taylor game was just, I really enjoyed watching it, especially at the end. I'm really happy Derek highlighted that because I had the same thought. If you hadn't said it, I might

have done it as well because early window, a million things are going on. The Panthers are trying to pull off this upset. And like over in my quad box was Falcons Jets. which like, who cares about Falcons Jets? Let's be honest. But then you realize it's close at the end

and you kind of keep glancing over at it and it's tied and the Jets have a chance to win. And it kind of dawned on me late in this game where I was like, just because this is not narratively appealing doesn't mean there aren't 70 people on each side of this game striving to get a win, to feel good for a rare moment in a shit season.

for both of these teams. That's exactly right. You're trying to salvage whatever the last month of the year looks like. And to the Jets credit, they have looked competent over the last few weeks here. Like, they've shown signs of life.

And for the Falcons, I think both of those teams, again, are just trying to pull their season back from the brink in ways both big and small. And I think that's a good example of this. Yeah. The last thing I'll say about Jets Falcons, it is a phenomenal day today,

this week, to be a Dantean Wix A.D. Mitchell-truther. That's all I'll say. for the man who has never given up on either of them. We've never moved off. I had the candle lift for both of them. It was never going out. And so it was a big week for that. I always believed I will continue to believe in both of them.

My, how could you not be romantic about football in week 13? We don't have to spend a ton of time on this. The Max Brosmer picks six. I love me a game that just gets completely out of hand for an offense or a quarterback. Every once in a while, it's fun to have one of these. It's not fun for Max Brosmer, but it's fun for us to watch it. Like, it's just a reminder that this is an undrafted free agent.

He's like a back-of-the-roster type guy. He's not ready to play, you know, in these sorts of games in the NFL. He's thrust into this moment. It's just a very, very stark reminder of what it looks like when a semi-normal human being is dropped in against a defense like the Seattle Seahawks. And that's exactly what today felt like. I say a lot of stupid stuff on this show, but that take aged really well. from the preview show where I was like,

this could be the start of something special, or this could be like a remember that guy, Pantheon game, and we got the latter, because I will remember the pick six, like the whoopsie daisy to straight to Ernest Jones, I will remember for a long, long time. It's just such a human thing to panic in that moment in that way.

Like, I completely understand how he arrives there. DeMarcus Lawrence hanging off your waist, 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage on fourth down. Yeah, I didn't even blame him. Like when you're a rookie thrown into your first game against that team, yeah, man, I'm probably going to do some sort of mistake like that

when DeMarcus Lawrence is running at me. Michael Sean Dugard does a fantastic job covering the Seahawks for us. Hero story after that game where I guess like, it's become sort of a mantra in the Seahawks locker room of it doesn't have to be close. That's, I like that. That's a good one. And that this, that is, they are this sort of team that year or this year.

They are that sort of team. It does not have to be close. sometimes for the Seattle Seahawks. Dave, what made you feel romantic in week 13? I almost highlighted this guy a couple weeks ago when he had a full speed running pancake on Jordan Poyer against the bills. He's one of my favorite players in the NFL. He has been since he came in the league.

And that would, of course, be Tristan Wirfs, who ultimately didn't highlight him a couple weeks ago. And he responded with a bigger moment against Arizona. The Bucks get past the Cardinals. They only score two touchdowns on the day. And one of those goes to Tristan Worf's, who makes his first NFL reception in the end zone. Just gorgeous misdirection by Josh Grasard down in Tampa where you go jumbo. The Bucks had three tackles and two tight ends on the field.

Worf's kind of okey-doke Zavin Collins. And I love the play design too because Emeka Ibuka drew Buda Baker and Garrett Williams inside on a slant. And so all Tristan Wirfs had to do was that little okey-doke and he's all alone in the end zone. And I love the line from Kevin Coogler who had the call on this game, said he was an all-pro at right tackle. Then he was an all-pro at left tackle. Who knows? Maybe up next it's all-pro receiver Tristan Wirthes, which they might need him at this point. I wouldn't bet against him.

Yeah, that's a great point, unfortunately. But I just, we talked about this off like not on the pod, but in that Bucks game against the Bills, the clip where the bill's offensive line is just romanticizing Tristan Wirth's. They're just like, oh my God, his legs are like redwood trees. So like if Tristan Wirfs makes NFL offensive linemen feel romantic about football, then he damn sure makes me feel romantic about football. We'll dig into that game tomorrow on the hangover. Our three hangover games are Bucks Cardinals,

the Sunday night game between the Broncos and the commanders. And then we're also going to chat a little Dolphins Saints, which we got to check in with where the Saints and the Dolphs, are at this point in the season. So looking forward to those three. Before we get out of here, let's talk about what we learned in week 13. I think I've learned something today. Stick with a little, it's a week for Bears talk.

It's kind of what has brought. It's a season for Bears talk, man. It's what has brought me to this place. And watching the Bears today, watching the Bears this week, watching the Cowboys this week, watching the Jags now atop the AFC South, and then contrasting that with where the Steelers were today and kind of where their season. is landing. Sometimes a new coach has like real power.

Things can feel very different, even if you're not swapping out that much. And it's just new, fresh ideas. And that's what I think I learned in week 13, is like how different things can feel based on who's at the helm and what that means for you. The Cowboys specifically, I know they traded for George Pickens,

but this for the most part, it's a lot of the same usual suspects on offense. and just how different does this feel with Brian Schottenheimer and Clayton Adams and what that offensive staff has gotten out of this group. I know that the Bears have switched out a ton of component parts along the offensive line, but how different does it feel when you have an offensive play caller and a head coach who consistently is giving you the best possible chance every single week when it hasn't felt that way for a really long time?

Mike Vrable in New England and just how different that feels compared to what it was last year. I know they had an influx of talent this year, but it goes beyond bringing in five, six pieces with all that free agent money. It's hard to walk away from known quantities. It's hard to walk away from teams that can consistently make the playoffs or be in the conversation like the Cowboys were,

like the Steelers are. But sometimes I think it's really apparent what's seeking out a fresh start can do for teams and how quickly things can change for you. And I think that the week 13, and what the week 13 slate has meant for the playoff picture was a very good reminder of that. And I know it's year two for them, but like the Seattle Seahawks to me,

I think from like a macro perspective, like if you just think about like what is the team now versus what was it with Pete Carroll, it's like defense led team. They're going to try to run the ball. They're going to try to get these play action shots. Like it's what they were with Pete Carroll at their best. They are that now. They're just a younger and slightly more modern and just different version of that.

So you don't even necessarily have to change like what you want to be. you just kind of have to getting a new guy in the building to reshape some of that and like fit it through a different lens can be very helpful. You've seen the power of it. And I think that this week was a very, very good example of it. All right. That's all we've got for today. We'll be back tomorrow with those three games on The Hangover.

Sincerely appreciate you guys. Listen, we'll talk to you very soon.