The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 14 Hangover: Hunting for relevant 2026 needles in the 2025 haystack for four also-rans

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

The Vikings, Commanders, Titans and Browns have dealt with varying degrees of disappointment this season, but they remain worthy of our attention as we get ready to close the book on them for 2025. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dive into the Vikings' 31-0 win over the Commanders, and the Titans' surprisingly fun 31-29 win over the Browns, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Then, the guys get into a particularly illustrative edition of Monday Mourning with calls from Colts and Falcons fans.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:27 Commanders-Vikings recap30:08 Titans-Browns recap59:25 Monday Mourning with the Colts and FalconsConnect with The Athletic Football ShowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowPodcasts: https://podfollow.com/the-athletic-football-show/viewX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. The week 14 hangover is here. Me and Derek Klessen hit two games from the week 14 slate that we did not get to on the Sunday night recap. Chatted a little commander's Vikings, what this game looked like for Minnesota and kind of fulfilling the type of team we thought they might be coming into the season in terms of the plan. What this kind of says about the multi-year outlook and just the future for Washington and how dicey and scary that looks. And then we also chatted little Titans Browns, which was way more fun and way more entertaining than I think any of us could have expected coming into that one. So enjoy digging into this with Derek.

Let's get to it right now. Week 14 hangover. I cannot believe it's already week 14. I guess I probably can, considering there's going to be snow outside in Chicago for the rest of my life, I think, based on how the last couple weeks have gone. So we are in that part of the year. But the fact that we're 14 weeks into the season, this is our 14th one of these. it's hard to wrap my head around right now it's a little i mean the middle of the season is always a blur right like the beginning of the season's super exciting you remember everything that happens

for the first month and then you kind of just put your head down and like do the work until you look up and you realize every four every week 14 game basically was like somebody is in or out of the playoffs and you're like oh this shit really matters and that's that's where we're at that we talked about that a lot last night where it just felt like this is not much of that show yeah of course That's the whole point of this show. But the fact that last night we just kind of like sat there as the dust out of it. I was like, holy shit, Chiefs and the Browns aren't going to make the playoffs. It was like it was that sort of week in the NFL.

But that's not what we're here to discuss. We're here to discuss the games we did not talk about last night. We're talking about two of those today. We're going to dig into Titans Browns a little bit later. A barn burner of a Titans Browns game yesterday. But we're going to start with the Minnesota Vikings beating up the Washington Commanders 31 to nothing. where do you want to start this conversation? I feel like there are a few different jumping off points we could zero in on.

I mean, I feel like the easiest is the fact that Washington's offense clearly had no answer for Brian, Brian Flores turning up the heat to a million. Like, they blitzed basically the entire game. And I do think you saw a little bit in the second. In the first half, they were blitzing them constantly, like really bringing five, six bodies as often as possible. And I thought, you know, what we talked about so much with Washington's offense last year is they did a really good job of. of formationally getting into good pass protection stuff, having two tight ends, maybe putting them both on the same side,

you slide the protection, all that stuff. They did almost none of that in the first half it felt like, and they were getting got and really putting it on Jaden Daniels to either scramble or beat the blitz. And so in the second half, you saw them adjust a little bit, and then in the second half, the Vikings were just popping out of it and only rushing four. Like, I thought Brian Flores called an absolutely delightful football game.

They were running scared the entire game, Washington's offense was. And I'll say this, this is the first thing's first. in terms of like the general scope and rhythm of the game. This ends 31 to nothing. Washington was in plus plus territory twice and came away with zero points. And so you look at 31 to nothing and you think, oh my God.

And then you go watch the first Washington drive and they get down inside the five yard lines. Like how do they not score any points in this game? And the answer is they came away empty on their opening drive where they had multiple shots from like the three yard line. And then I think it was on the first drive of the second half where they get down to like the plus 20 or so, and they have a fourth and three, and that is the screen that Jayden Daniels throws directly to Andrew Van Ginkle, who seems to do this like three or four times a

year. And so while it was 31 to nothing and while Minnesota controlled almost every aspect of this game, it wasn't quite as ugly as the final score would lead you to belief. I realize this would make you pretty limited as an offense, especially in those situations. Would you ever throw a screen Andrew Van Ginkle, like ever. Like, why would you do it? Like, he's the only guy in the league who can consistently do this to you. I know you gotta keep him honest and stuff, but like, it's, he does this way too often. There are other ways to keep teams honest.

And the frustrating part is that the play before that, they run, it's a little bunch to the left side on third and three, and they have a quick out and he kind of sails it a little bit for Noah Brown. And Terry McCorn was wide open on that play. And so he, Jane Daniels misses that throw, pushes them into the fourth and three. and that's when Van Ginkle makes that play. But I'm with you. It just felt like they were running for their lives for most of this game.

And I think it was a combination of some quick pressure stuff. I mean, the one that really looms large in mind about Harrison Smith just came completely unblocked coming off the left side on one play. I think it was in the second half. But even when they were bringing four or it was just one-on-one scenarios with defensive linemen, Jonathan Grenard had like two quick pressures in this game that forced Jaden Daniel into scramble mode, both literally and figuratively a couple different times over the course of this one. And so it really did feel like Washington's offense just had very few answers over the

course of this entire thing. And it was frustrating too because I, they ran the ball for especially when Jane Daniels was in the game. They were actually running the ball okay. When Daniels was in, I don't know what their overall success rate is because to me it didn't matter once Jane Daniels was out. But they had a 45.5% success rate and they got a couple of those runs to pop. Like I thought that was something maybe they could have continued to tap into because then that helps keep Minnesota out of some of the, you know, blitz looks that they really like. I guess in my mind, maybe the opposite of that is like, if a team is going to be in some of these loaded fronts,

they're going to do weird blitz stuff for you, it's going to be a gash or be gashed game. And maybe Washington just doesn't think their backs are explosive enough to play that way. Like maybe that was their calculus. But I would have liked to see them before the game got too out of hand, like run the ball a little bit more because they weren't doing it well. I think that's part of the problem is the game did get a little bit out of hand by the time you got to the early part of the second half.

And again, they were moving the ball fairly well on a couple of those drives. And when you come up empty and now suddenly you're down 17 to nothing, I think the way that you can approach the game changes. And that it changes even more when you're starting quarterback goes out of the game. And then you're playing with Marcus Mario da that for most of the second half. And so the offense, I think, just started to unravel a little bit. On the other side of the ball, it really does feel like in a lot of ways this is the type of offense the Vikings wanted to be at the start of this season. Like this is the first time all since week two, I want to say, that the entire Minnesota Vikings offensive line was playing together.

I think you have to go all the way back to like week two because Donovan Jackson and Ryan Kelly like switched off in weeks three and four. So it's been a really long time since this group has played together. And listen, the Washington defense is bad. But the fact that Minnesota could just line up and run the ball, they had a 50% rushing success rate in this game. They averaged 4.8 yards to carry. They had 34 carries for 162 yards. That was the driving force. and the engine of the offense, that's what it was supposed to be coming into this season.

And they have never really been able to tap into that version of this thing. And not every defense is going to be Washington, but you kind of saw the vision of what the Vikings actually wanted to be this year with what they put on the field yesterday. They needed to stabilize the offense, like around J.J. McCarthy to let this stuff work. Because he is, I think, with where he's at in his development, the best things he does are if he can get to the top of his drop and just rip whatever his first read is, whether it's one of those outbreakers, a couple of the end breakers he'll

throw every now and then it's like a really nice seam ball. They can do that. It's just you kind of want to be in those first and tens, second and threes where the playbook is open and you can be in comfortable spots to do that. And so them running the ball, well, there were a couple of reps where Kelly and Donovan Jackson, when they got four hands on somebody, they were kicking ass. And so if they can look like that for the stretch, it's like maybe you can start to sell yourself on what it looks like again next year. The JJ McCarthy aspect of this game was just fascinating. And I want to go through the Vikings' second touchdown drive, that their drive to go up

14 to nothing. The first drive is kind of ho-hum. A couple decent throws from JJ has a quick out that's well-placed to Hawkinson, and then they run a play on down in the red zone on the touchdown of Josh Oliver. It's two seams from the tight ends with hitches on the outside against cover three. whatever tight end he wanted to pick on that was wide open for a touchdown. Again, that's the state of the Washington defense at this point. So the first drive was kind of whatever.

The second touchdown drive, it was the most J.J. McCarthy experience you could possibly have in ways both good and bad. He has a scramble on third down to pick up a first down. On an outbreak or off play action, he throws it five feet over Jordan Addison's head. They get a second and ten draw for Jordan Mason for a chunk. He takes a very bad sack on second and seven, which his feet bring him to the checkdown there. The checkdown is wide open. He just does not throw it.

He just chooses not to throw it. I wrote that in my notes. I was literally just wrote the JJ's second and seven sack early in the second quarter. Just hit the checkdown, man. Like it's right there. Young quarterback struggle with it so much and he knew to do it and he just didn't take it. And that's one of those plays where, again, you don't want to, we don't want to be like screenshot warriors here where you're looking at the play and pressing pause and they're,

why don't you throw it to this guy who's wide open? We have no idea where he's supposed to be going with the ball. We don't know what the progression is supposed to look like. But on that play specifically, you see the timing of the play merry up with the checkdown releasing. He turns to look at the back in the flat and then does not throw the ball and takes a sack. He throws next play,

throws like a little quick out to nail her for a first down. Great. On the second and eight following that, he bounces around in the pocket, has no idea where to go, panics, takes another sack. And then the play after that, it's a third down, and he rips a whole shot to Jordan Addison on the left sideline. And so that's, you're kind of watching all of this.

And there were a handful of decent moments in this game. I think overall the performance was better. But he still just feels so uncomfortable and erratic in so many of these moments in the pocket. And so that is the element of this that needs to get better. But we're going to look at the final score. And I think people are going to want to wait. give away the actual reality of what he looked like down to down. And I think it was more similar to other performances from this season than you might

want to believe given the final result. It was. And I think, again, some of the steadying factors that they got where they were able to get in. And he did make a couple of good throws. Like the Addison throw there. The throw he does make to Josh Oliver for the first touchdown. Even the, his last touchdown to TJ Hawkinson.

Like, he throws the shit out of that ball. I think those throws into the flat on the goal line are like way tougher than people realize. and I thought that that was like a really impressive ball from him. But again, you still got too many of the like, we need to settle down here type of plays. Like, to me, the most frustrating rep that he had in this entire game was there was about seven minutes left in the third quarter. And to the left-hand side, they have two tight ends lined up next to each other. The outside guy runs this little like corner stop route and under it.

The inside tight end runs just like a little sit route on the hash. And they have the back swinging out to that side. So you probably want to read that side. And so he, but they have to the. right side, the opposite side, Justin Jefferson on like one of those 10-yard outbreakers. He starts to play looking at Jefferson, which doesn't really make any sense. Like, you're either going to throw that or you're not. So he looks at it, comes off of it, goes back to the play side, bounces around for two seconds, comes back to Justin Jefferson late

and just like throws the ball and test it. It's like there's just not a clear understanding or rhythm to what he's reading or what he's seeing. And what's frustrating about that is, and we don't know what's going on in the building, right? We have no idea. But when you talk to other quarterbacks who have played in this offense, played for Kevin O'Connell, I think one of the strengths of the staff is their ability to communicate, okay, we're going to make your purview on this play very small, okay? When we're lining up and we're running this play, here is why we're running this play, here's what we're trying to accomplish on this play, here's why you're reading out this play

the way that you're reading it out. I think they do a good job of communicating. Again, this is based on talking to people in the building that have played. the position. I think they do a good job of communicating the intent behind the place. And so that's what's a little bit frustrating about watching his seeming lack of understanding of what the intent of those plays is and how, again, just kind of scattershot his process can be as he's going through some of this stuff. And so that brings you to like the question of why is this happening? Is there some sort of disconnect between how he's being, how the offense is

being communicated to him? Or is this something that he's really struggling? with and that part of it, there's really no way to understand like where the gaps are and why they exist. Yeah. And it might too just be like he is a young player and it might just take him two years of trying to do this for him to figure out what the rhythms of that is. And like, again, whether or not Minnesota wants to do that, we'll see. But like, I do think that like, he's just going to need a lot of reps doing this. Because again, when he was at Michigan, it was a very paired down passing offense. It's one of those things where I think the greatest trick that we fall for sometimes with quarterbacks is like if they played under center in college, we're like, oh,

it was pro style. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like they can still game it up in a way that is really, really easy. We did this with Nathan Peterman coming out of pit too. And I think that that was definitely the case in Michigan. And so I think there was just maybe more of a learning curve in that way than maybe we realized. Again, really impressed by a couple individual performances in the Vikings defense.

I just think Eric Wilson's having such a good season. And he's a free agent this year. He's 31 years old. It's just kind of like a random career year for a guy that was on like a one year $2 million deal this season. He played really well. It was nice to have Gernard and Van Ginkle back together

that you could field those guys. And I do think the part of the reason that the Vikings defense has struggled relatively this year is that when your offense is this bad, it's really hard to maintain like a solid level of defensive performance. The offense in this game, I mean, that's second touchdown drive,

they marched down the field. It was like 15, 17 plays. they had the ball for so long. And so that just hasn't happened that often this year for this Vikings defense. And so I still feel good about this group moving forward. I still feel good about what they can be. Obviously, there are going to be some massive questions that the Vikings have to answer and ask themselves about who's going to be the quarterback

and what the plan on offense is next year. We've talked a lot about that. We've talked less about the multi-year outlook for this Washington team. And this one becomes pretty interesting pretty quickly. Washington has the oldest roster in the league. They are now slated to be picking, I mean, in the top 10, right? I mean, as it currently stands, they're three in 10. I can't imagine they'd be better than that, yeah.

They're three in 10. I believe they right now are projected to have the sixth overall pick in the draft. Here's the problem. That's one of the only picks they have in this draft. They do not have their second round pick. They do not have their fourth round pick in this draft because of the Laramie Tunsell trade. They have two picks in the first four rounds.

They only made five picks last year. And so now you're looking at two lean draft classes just in terms of how many picks that you have. You have the oldest roster in the league. Let's go back to previous drafts. In 2024, they had six top 100 picks. Six. How many of those guys are like real positive contributors to the ball club right now? Here are the six names.

I was going to say, I mean, the quarterback, but other than that. Jaden Daniels, Johnny Newton, Mikey Sainrestil, Ben Sinnett, Brandon Coleman, Luke McCaffrey. Those are their six top 100 picks. The last three are nothing burgers, basically. Stainer still, I still think long term, even though if he's had a little bit more of a down year, I still think long term, that's a player that I'm willing to buy in it on. And then I think Newton has been a little bit of a disappointment. He has moments, but I don't think for where you drafted him, he has been like the difference maker you probably wanted him to be.

Let's just go through the reality for all of these players. Okay. Johnny Newton, they felt like they needed to page of on kinlaw and free agency this year. Johnny Newton has not been that productive. Mikey Stenner still, I'm with you. I do think that the multi-year outwork for Mikey Sainer still, and he's now playing outside again because they have had injuries to Trey Amos and Marsha Lattimore. I think, I still think that Mikey Sainer still can be a solid player moving forward. Benz Sennett has been, has done very little for this team as a second round pick.

Brandon Coleman is a player that I was excited about coming into the season. He gets unseated by Chris Paul at left guard. We'll see if he can retain that job next year. Chris Paul is going to be a free agent. So this is a third round pick. And if he's a starter by your third year, I think you can feel okay about that. But so far, he's somebody that's been supplanted. And Luke McCaffrey is on IR right now.

And you didn't feel good enough about Luke McCaffrey to not trade for Debo Samuel this offseason. And so they replaced or kind of jumped the line on several of these guys with some moves that they made this offseason and very few of them are actually contributing. And so you have, let's say, generously, two and a half real contributors from those six top 100 picks. You made five picks in this year's draft and you have two picks in the next four rounds next year. with how many like really solid long-term pieces that you feel good about on the current version of the roster that is mostly made up of aging players

that you brought back to try to like pry open this window the best that you could. It's not a good situation. It's a terrible situation. And a lot of these players, I think one of the biggest issues with how old some of these players are is a lot of them are in like the middle of their units. Like Zach Ertz and obviously now he's hurt

so he's probably like completely done. Bobby Wagner looks just continues to not look like as much of an NFL athlete as you would like outside of outside of the hash marks. I think even Frankie Louvo, even though he's like not as old as Bobby Wagner, I think you're starting to see that he's declining a little bit. Like they just obviously they brought in Vaughn Miller this off season. Like they are just at a lot of key positions and a lot of like in the middle of your team. You just have a lot of age that is going to go very quickly and you just don't have enough starters outside of that to really make up for it. And also, I know that like this is like tough ground to walk, but the fact that a lot of a lot of the bets that they made were that Jaden Daniels was going to like kind of make everybody better. Because I do think when he's healthy and at his best, he can do that.

The reality is he's like a 195 pound quarterback who has been banged up constantly and doesn't really slide yet. Like that's something that he could absolutely learn this offseason. But he is someone who consistently puts himself at risk. And I think that if we're going to do all like, I feel like with Jackson Dart, it's the only thing that we talk about. But with Jaden Daniels, I think it's also a very serious consideration.

It absolutely is because I think you saying that, they need him to make everybody else better. That's not some theoretical thing. That was part of the calculus in terms of how they built this thing in the offseason. And I'll say with the offense specifically, I do think like the multi-year outlook for the offense is okay. The quarterback's health is 100% something to consider and to be worried about. but if he can be healthy next year,

you get Terry McCloran back, hopefully for most of the season next year. He missed a good chunk of this year. The offensive line comes back, essentially intact, and even with a decent amount of their depth, and so I feel good about that group, I do think they probably need one more pass catcher somewhere.

Like that needs to happen at some point this offseason. They don't have any picks, or else I would say that that might be a Brandon Ayuk team. We'll see if he ends up getting traded or he ends up getting released, because the one thing that this team does have next year, and credit to them for not pushing all of their chips in, they still have a ton of financial flexibility. I mean, if they move on from Marshall Adomore this off season,

which I assume they will, they're going to have like $100 million in cap space. The problem is every single year, and I did it a couple weeks ago, go take a look at the 2026 free agent class. And see how many guys you want to spend $100 million worth of cap space on. There aren't many. And so I think trying to do,

some sort of trade that allows them to use some sort of that cap space. In theory, sounds good. This is a team that doesn't really have any draft picks. And so the amount of rebuilding they have to do in some areas of the roster, collectively, they probably don't have the total amount of resources that are going to make that very easy because on defense, like, how many new starters do they need on defense? How many new pieces do they need in the back seven for you to feel good about where this group is?

A lot still. They still need a, they could, yeah, they could use a half a dozen new starters almost it feels like like the safety room I think is going to need help. Bobby Wagner needs to be replaced. The edge group needs a lot of help. You could probably still use a corner. Like they are in a tough spot, I think in terms of the defense. Yeah, without any picks, you need at least one more pass catcher.

You probably would like to replace your tight end with Ertz being hurt and Ben Sin it, not really being what you want. And then I truthfully, this is a team that needs running back talent desperately. Their running backs, I don't think are that good. I think the offensive line is just awesome. And then obviously you have two mobile quarterbacks who kind of open up some space for you. if they could get someone who was a little bit more dynamic in there, whether that means they're an explosive play threat,

whether that means they're a lot better out of the backfield than some of the guys that they have, whatever it is, I think if they could find some more flexibility and dynamism out of the backfield, I actually think that would go a long way for this football team. I think that's totally fair. I mean, the Bill Kroski-merit thing, that dream was short-lived. He didn't get his first snap until like the back half of the second quarter yesterday.

And it's tough because when you're a team that needs an injection of young talent, and you need a little bit of juice. I mean, you watch this defense. We said this coming into the season. It's a slow group. It's an old group. They need an injection of just dynamic playmaking in the back seven of their defense. Well, it's hard to get younger when you don't have that many draft picks.

The youngest you can go is 24, 25-year-old second contract players in free agency. And there just are not a lot of those worth paying in any individual free agent class. The last thing I'll ask you before we move on. And I think we danced around it with that conversation, but I want to ask you in a more direct way. After last year, it was all sunshine and rainbows for the Dan Quinn, Adam Peters duo, and like the trajectory of this franchise overall. How are you feeling about the leadership, the people in charge, the folks tasked with overseeing the next phase of this? Are you at a point where you still have faith in how this is going to go, or have you kind of soured on people who's cute? score was about as high as it possibly could be at the end of last year.

I think I'm a little bit over. And I think with GMs, it can be tricky because I think, again, I think we've seen periods where sometimes GMs just like miss on a few picks and like do something aggressive and it gets weird and it doesn't work out. But then three years later, they end up turning a lot of things around. And so the Peters thing, I think, is a little bit more tricky to untangle. I'm pretty over this coaching staff, though. Like the fact that the defense is as simple as it is and just getting worked week over

week over week. I mean, how much, we spent the first eight weeks of the season talking about how bad the Bengals defense was. This, what the Washington commanders are right now is as bad as those Bengals teams were early in the season. And so I'm just kind of tired of watching the way that they get beat. And then offensively, I think we worried, or at least I worried a little bit coming into this season of like, Cliff did some really cool stuff last year, but I was kind of like, do it again, like prove it to me again that you can bring some new ideas and that this very unique college style of offense can work. And I think I know the quarterback's health has been a big part of them not being able to produce the way that they did last year. But it just doesn't feel as fresh as it did

a year ago. Like they haven't added as much to it as I would have liked. So I, this coaching staff, I'm a little bit, they've got a lot more to prove to me. Even if you want to give Cliff a little bit of grace because the quarterback has been hurt for a good chunk of the year. McCorn has missed a decent amount of time. In the best case scenario, everyone gets healthy next year. The offense gets back to what it was in 2024. It's a top five offense again. Well, what's going to happen if that happens? He's out of here.

Right. And now you're left with a defensive head coach who has struggled to find an answer on defense. And some of that is talent-driven. There's no denying that. Like, they do not have that many difference-making players on that side of the ball. But I think you comparing them to the Bengals is a good thing to do. This is a thing that's bottoming out in real time. Missing Dorrance Armstrong should not bring you to this place as a defense,

the way that it has when you have a defensive-minded head coach who has Russell back play calling. If the offense is going to be the most important best thing about this and Dan Quinn is going to be the one in charge, I think that's going to bring you to some difficult conversations. And so I absolutely think that this group will be back next year. I think that they'll, they should be back next year based on how last season went. But it's pretty crazy how quickly just the overall vibes and feeling around a team can change when you go from what this team was last year to what they are. year. Even if you thought they were going to regress a little bit this year and they were going to

fall short of the playoffs and be like a disappointing eight and nine sort of team, bottoming out like this is truly like the worst case scenario in a way that would have been typical to imagine. That's the thing. That's the part that changes the calculus to me. If they just had a couple of weird bounces in one or two injuries and they won seven games, I probably wouldn't feel that differently about this coaching staff, like filling in the holes of what that season would have looked like. but bottoming out to where you win three, maybe four games. It's like that's a pretty wild vacillation to have. All right.

We're going to take a quick break here and then come back and chat a little Titans Browns. The Tennessee Titans knock off the Cleveland Browns, 31 to 29. The Titans go to a roaring 2 and 11 on the season. The Browns are now 3 and 10. A game that just was way more entertaining that it had any right to be based on the weather, our expectations for this thing coming in. into it, a really fun game to go back and rewatch. Where do you want to start this?

I mean, I want to start by saying how, like, my experience with this game was that when I was watching on Sunday, this was a game that I did not have on one of my four screens. And I was like, I'll get to this later, especially knowing that we would probably end up doing this for the hangover. And I peek over in like the middle of the second quarter and there's like 30 points on the board. And I was like, what could have possibly happened where there are 30-ish points on the board in this game. And so, um, I thought that part of it was fascinating. I thought we were going to get potentially like a 1310 just disgusting kind of game. I think the part of it that I want to start

with was Tennessee's run game and their running backs were awesome in this game. Like, it's why they won the game. It's why they won the game. Like, Pollard had a number of nice runs. Tai J. Spears had a couple of, he had a couple of good runs, but he also had a couple of they were throwing screens to him, like lining him up as like a slot receiver and just chucking some screens out, especially early in the game. And that I think was probably the best thing that they did this game is they played very horizontal, especially early on in the past the game. They were like, we're not going to let Miles Garrett get to us. We're going to try to keep this as on the perimeter as we can. And I actually thought they did a pretty good job for a lot of this game. The power touchdown, the long power

touchdown is a beautiful rep of like pinpole with like multiple gorgeous down blocks on it. Gunner Helm does a fantastic job on that play. He takes out the linebacker and then ends up picking off the post safety to give Pollard that lane. And I think it was Van Jefferson was like 40 yards downfield throwing the final block to get him in the end zone. And so that takes it to 14.3. And then the touchdown he scored in the third quarter, that's a play where just the alignment by the Browns was a little bit surprising.

Like if you watch that play, the Titans are in like a spread out look. And Devin Bush's walked down onto the line of scrimmage in like a five-man front. They don't even block him based on the overall structure. of the play. And so it's five on five into a light box and it's kind of an easy touchdown. And so those runs, I mean, that was what powered the Titans to win this game. Like, that was the most important element of what happened in this game. Yeah, that run, the second run where like, yeah, they end up in a light and they end up in a light box because I think they have a Conquil on the left hand side and then they motion him to the right over into this like bunch formation. It

kicks, I think, Schwessinger out of the box. And so they're left with only one linebacker in there. And then the other part of it of why it ended up popping so much. The defensive back, so the back was to the quarterback's right-hand side, and the defensive tackle on that side tries to like back door through the left guard. And so you've got light box and then the Fred C is parting between the two defensive tackles. And it's like, well, who the hell is going to tackle him? Delpit's a little bit late trying to fit it in there and Paula just takes off.

And he, he had an awesome day. And so I thought, I just thought that, yeah, I thought some of the runs that they were able to scheme up were like really, really impressive in this game. That side of the ball was kind of strange. like the run game success that the Titans were able to have. I was kind of surprised that just how much blitzing we saw from the Browns defense in that game. Like I just, I was like, you do you need to do this against the Titans offensive line? A ton of Grant Delpit blitzes.

We had some, and even when they weren't blitzing, it was a very like pressure heavy game from them overall. I mean, one of the coolest plays that they had on defense, Schlesinger was awesome again in this game, by the way. He is so sick, man. I'm so in. He is such a good player. a good player. And so there was a, at one point, they brought, they had like a drop eight into cover two where he was one of the blitzers. And so they dropped eight into coverage, but they took, they sent one of the linebackers. And so that happens at one point in this game. It was just,

it was a crazy unhinged game plan from Jim Schwartz. A lot of it worked in the passing game, but my God. Was that the pressure he got where he kind of wins through the left tackles inside shoulder? That was sick too, because they had the defensive end over to that side like, kind of cut across the left tackle's face a little bit. So he's like, you know, kind of flashes of color. He doesn't really know where things are coming from. And Swessinger just fires through his inside shoulder, which, again, the thing I really want to point out with Swessinger is coming out of college, I was like, is he really going to

be strong enough to like push through NFL offensive linemen and stuff? And he just bullies through the left tackles inside shoulder. Then almost rips can't ward down. Like, he's, he's an awesome player. There was a play in the second quarter where it was a third and four. and he does a fantastic job of reading Cam Ward's eyes on that play while dropping in as like a whole player. And the route is behind him and his eyes take him to the ball where he sticks up a hand to the route coming behind him, gets a hand on it, gets a finger on it, tips that ball, it's an incompletion, and the Titans are punting.

And so he was great. I love what Delpit did. I think a lot of the individual defensive players had a nice day outside of like those chunk runs that they gave up. I don't know how I feel right now with the Titans offensive line being like relatively healthy. It's not all the way healthy. I do think that there is like a version of this group that it just took a year, right? Like we were excited about this group coming into the season and what they could be and it never really happened. I still have a candle lit for like what the 2025 or excuse me, the 2026 Titans offensive line might look like with one more offseason together with the different coaching staff.

the issues with this Titans offense personnel-wise are 100% with the past catchers. The offensive line, I do think there's like a version of it that looks okay next season. I'm actually there as well. Like, it looked tough for the first eight weeks of the season or whatever it was, but I do think that they're starting to settle in a little bit. Like, I think Skoronski has been playing better. And I think Latham is still up and down, but I still have a lot of faith in him as a player that moving forward when he gets another year sitting on the right-hand side that he's going to look good.

So I'm pretty invested. in the season, right? The fact that he was banged up early in the year that's just like, it's just tough for him to come back from that sometimes. Yeah, like multiple times he was in and out of the lineup. And so the fact that maybe he can be a little bit healthier, like, I'm still bought in on this. And maybe it, I think maybe we saw a world where they could be like one of like truly like

elevating themselves into one of the better offensive lines. If everything really went right, maybe that's a little bit too optimistic. But like I think that they can be like an average to above average unit pretty, pretty solidly. The other Titan I wanted to mention because he had, favorite sequence of this entire game. Jeffrey Simmons, early in the fourth quarter,

it is one of the funnier, like, sequences of plays I can remember for an individual player. He gets called for neutral zone infraction. And I think like second down. And so it takes it from like second and nine to second and four. Immediately on the next play, he shoots into the backfield and gets a TFL. So he gets those five yards back.

And then on the next play, he gets a sack. So he gets an offside, a TFL and a sack to torpedo a drive. And that's just like one of the 10 things that he did over the course of this game. He's an absolute monster. He was insane, dude. I think he had a stop near the goal line that was really, really impressive. Like, he was just absolutely insane in this game. I also, the one minor thing with Jeffrey Simmons is I really, really love that he wears all the red.

It makes it so obvious that it's like, that's the guy. that's the guy who's going to be the problem. It's one of my favorite things that good players do is when they have some sort of identifying feature when you're going back and watching it on film where there's no ambiguity about who he is. It's one of my favorite things about early career JJ Watt is that he had that huge elbow brace on. And so it was always so easy to identify where he was on a given play. And so if you're a pro bowl or all pro level defender listening to this podcast, please just wear something that makes you easily identifiable to make my life a little bit easier when going back and rewatching these games.

Yeah. Can I, I've got two more Titans defense things that I actually want to shout out, before we potentially move on from them. There's a little something to Cedric Gray. I don't know if he's, I think. He flies around, man.

He flies around. He really does. Like, he plays forward. I think he hits people. He takes back space in the run game well. I think in coverage, he's maybe not the sexiest player.

But I really do think that in terms of a, let's move around and try to hit shit type of linebacker. I really do think that he's got a little something to him. and I think he's pretty sound as a run defender between the tackles, like takes on blocks. Well, like I thought that he was impressive. He was a fourth round pick in 2024, by the way, just for people who made out of who Cedric Gray is.

He is a second year fourth round linebacker who's 23 years old. He plays with his hair on fire. We know that's a position that guys can occasionally break out a little bit late. And so I'm with you. Like, he is somebody that when you watch this defense right now, you notice him for sure. And I think it's probably helped a little bit now that he's got Cody Barton next to him, who I, you know, is not the greatest player,

but I think he's a veteran who's done this a long time. time. He's played in a bunch of different defenses. And so I think having like a settling presence next to him, I think has been solid. And then the other play that I really wanted to shout out was at some point in the game, I forget when this was. The Browns were just inside of the five and they tried to run like a little jet from the right to the left. Amani Hooker flies down and pops the wide receiver so bad at the line of scrimmage and like completely decleets him. I really like a Moni Hooker as well. I think athletically when he's in space, he's not the best player. But again, in terms of a guy who really flies downhill and tries to make you not want to go and play football.

He's a very fun player. The last thing I'll say about the Titans, and I'm 100% with you, the play he made on the jet sweep and inside the five is just like he saves a touchdown on that play. I mean, it's a disgusting play. I watch this Titans defense right now. This team needs a real edge player so bad. It's crazy. And I understand they traded Raymond Jones. It's a lost season, all of that stuff.

but the little I know about the draft, I know from watching Building the Beast, and I'm aware of the fact that there's guys like Arvall Reese and Rubin Bain, and like there are edge players in the top five of this class, and especially for a team that does not need a quarterback, it feels like they're going to be in position, hopefully, to draft one of those guys. Thank God, because my goodness, do they need one?

So I actually kind of want to ask you that, kind of to that point. How far do you think the Titans defense is from actually being kind of good? I don't think they're that far. I think the middle of their defense is pretty sick. Like the D-tackles are monsters. The linebacker room is solid. The safeties aren't great, but I think if the corners... They need several corners, though, and that's part of the problem.

I think the safeties would look better if the corners were not getting beat constantly. But I think, like, if you could get maybe draft one decent corner, you sign one, find an edge player. It's like, I don't think they're that far away. And I still think it's really well coached. Like, I like the way that guys play. I like some of the calls they're trying to get. get into like I there's still something about this tennis defense that defense of court i mean denar wilson's likely not going to be there next year so anything they're building on with him is

probably not worth getting excited about for the time being i think there's still far enough to go where i'm i'm saving my like real enthusiasm i just think that the fact that they need multiple corners and an edge rusher like all of that stuff i do think that they're if things do come together maybe they're the sort of unit that like quickly gets a lot better than we expected. I don't think that's crazy, but I don't know if I'm necessarily penciling it in quite yet. That's fair. I think I also did some bad math on yet. Dernard Wilson is probably not going to be there, one reason or another.

Let's get to the other side of the ball. I thought that Shadur Sanders played well in this game. I was impressed by some of the things he did. He did, here's what I'll say. There were five plays I thought were very impressive. there were five plays that were hilarious. Dude, okay,

which was my, I think my favorite weird play that he made was in the middle of the second quarter, there was a dead screen that they were trying to call to the left side. And he realizes it's dead. And most quarterbacks in that moment will just like dirt the ball be like, plays over, we'll move on. He like sprints forward for five yards into the teeth of the defense and then like kind

of tries to slide and dirty. And I was like, where did you think was going to be? accomplished here. That was, well, he had that and then he had an intentional grounding on a blown up screen as well at one point in this game. And so those are like, those are plays that were sniffed out. Like I don't have a huge issue with those. My favorite thing he did on the drive following the Devin Bush interception, there was a play on third and eight where he's like pointing from the pocket in the middle of the play. And I was just like, what is happening here? Often when you'll

see that on like a scramble drill where a guy is like trying to create outside of structure and he's trying to get a guy to redirect as part of the scramble drill. He's in the pocket trying to like direct someone while the pass rush is getting to him. So that was hilarious. I mean, the interception is an unacceptable decision on like a bunch of different levels. He took a couple of ugly. Yeah. In my notes. Like you're just like, why are you throwing that? He took a couple of ugly sacks in this game. But there are like four or five throws. over the course of this game where it's just like, all right, man. Like, I do think there's enough there for you to feel good about him playing for the rest of the season and just seeing how it can go.

Like, he clearly has deficiencies, but I think that he's aggressive as a passer. Like, he's willing to let that thing rip. He's accurate. I mean, the touchdown throw to David and Joku is like a beautiful throw. And so there's enough stuff for me to be intrigued by seeing more, even if I do think that the low lights are pretty pretty, bad. Like there are times where he just looks lost, but there are also times where you see what he can do as like an accurate passer from the pocket. And I honestly think like, so I think he had what was kind of awesome to me was the Jerry Judy touchdown he throws. I remember when we were doing our pods talking about him as a prospect. It was like some of his best throws were just those intermediate in breakers.

Like if he can just in rhythm hit those. And so the fact that he threw that Judy won the way that he did. And he progresses to that. Yes. Like he throws that on time. He's comfortable doing that. It's all the way back to it on the backside. He is comfortable doing that. That was a beautiful play. He had that one. And then honestly,

one of my other favorite plays that he made. And this goes back to what we were talking about, J.J. McCarthy, the J.J. McCarthy second and seven sack he takes where his eyes bring him to the checkdown and he doesn't throw it. Sanders actually had a play in this game, whereas about 10 minutes left in the second quarter, it's a third and six.

Right tackle loses immediately inside shoulder. But his eyes in the progression are taking him from left to right. And he gets there to the swing. And as soon as his back, foot hits when he shuffles over there, he just throws it, lets his guy go make a play. And it was just like, I know that's simple. I know that's boring. But a lot of young quarterbacks do suck at that. Like a lot of young quarterbacks are really bad at that. So the fact that he did it, I was like, okay, man, like if you can make enough of the just keep the offense moving plays, you let Injoku or

Fanon make one play, one or two plays for you down the field. It's like you can have something here, more than you had with Dylan Gabriel. Absolutely. And I think that, I mean, the wheel route he throws to Fanon at one point in this game down the right sideline. It's a beautiful throw. I'm 100% with you on the checkdowns. I thought that him getting to checkdowns multiple times over the course of this game was impressive

and then not even just checkdowns, but like late in the progression type options. On the second and 20 with like 529 and left in the game, he gets all the way back to like Dylan Samson on what is essentially like a checkdown on an angle route that's the final

read and progression. That becomes like a shunk gain on that same drive, he does a great job of climbing up in the pocket and finding Harold Fanon on another completion. Like there is enough here where it's like, okay, like I'm interested in this, especially when you consider the fact that one of my big kind of, oh yeah, the moments while rewatching this, oh yeah, these teams are the first, they pick first and second in the NFL draft last year. Like these are bad football teams. These are bad football teams with bad supporting casts.

And with Cleveland, whatever like glimpse of optimism I have about the Titans' offensive line next year, I feel the opposite way about the Browns offensive line. All of those guys are hitting free agency. All of them. Their entire starting offensive line,

which we have not seen really at any point this year because it's been in tatters for most of the season. But the tackle play on this team right now is heinously bad. Like, heinously bad. and you can say, well, they're banged up, they don't have their starters out there. This entire group is going to be gone next year. You don't have enough like picks and resources to rebuild this offensive line in the next year.

And so maybe do you bring some of the aging pieces back? I have no idea what the plan is supposed to be for that position group specifically because right now it is a nightmare. And if you look at what they did on the ground in this game, negative 0.2 yards before contact per carry, their running backs were hit behind the line of scrimmage. on 65% of carries. Like, it's just really hard for this offense to do much,

considering, like, some of the infrastructure concerns. And when you consider that, and you look at the way that he played in this game, I do think that there is enough there to be like, okay, like, I'm interested in what this is going to look like for the final month or so. And the offensive line thing is frustrating, too, because, like, the young backs are good. Like, Quinchan Junkins is really good. Dylan Samson's got a little bit of something to him.

And obviously not part of the offensive line, but, like, I think if the passing game felt a little bit more comfortable being pure dropback, like we might get even more Harold Fanon, who I think has been really, really good. And so like they, the young skill players on this offense are really good. It's again, the offensive line. When they are as bad as they are in this game, it makes it really, really difficult. I will say too, like, again, there were about five or six, maybe even more than that plays where Shudur, it's like, man, we've probably got to speed this up.

But again, that's a young player thing. Like anyone who's only in their third start, like you're going to have to speed stuff up. That's probably how it's going to go. I think the only real actual concern I came away with from this game outside of the, he's just going to need more reps, speed stuff up that's in a young player. I do still think that there are some moments where he's trying to drive the ball that he can't quite put it on a frozen rope the way that you want for like a top top quarterback. But if the decision making is going to be solid and he can show that he can progress and get

to checkdowns, it's like that's enough for us to start to build some things on here. And the other part of this, and I do think this is helped by a Titans pass rush that is one of the worst in the league. I actually think his pocket sense and pocket movement is better or was better in this game than I really ever expected it to be seeing him as a rookie. Like, I don't think it's great by any stretch. He bails out the back of the pocket too often. He took a bad sack doing that.

But he was like stepping up and moving around the pocket in efficient ways, like several different times throughout this game. I thought that was going to be the most concerning part of what he was as a quarterback. Even when you watched him in the preseason. and when you watched him at Colorado. And I actually do think him stepping up, moving around the pocket, and even like doing a little bit as a scrambler, was more impressive in this game than I probably expected it to be at any point this season

if he was going to play. I think he just needs to embrace that that's who he is as a quarterback. It's like stand in the pocket, try to move around, make tough throws, that sort of thing. Because he will do that. But there are just too many, there are like three or four times a game where I'm like, you're not the athlete that you think that you are. And that's where he starts to run himself into trouble. You need to be in a very never.

window of space. That's where you want to be. He needs to be Kurt Cousins. Like he should watch a lot of Kurt Cousins film. Like that type of quarterback. Jared Goff, whoever it is. Like I think that style of play really probably suits him more. And then I do that he's a better athlete than Kirk Cousins is.

But it's like Kirk Cousins never tries to prove it. So that's a little bit different. Take off when you can. Take off when it's there for you. And he will do that every once in a while. One or two good ones. Do we want to talk about the two point play? Because we have to talk about the two point play.

Which one? Because they actually. because they went for it twice at the end of the game. And the first one was not a mental error, but Shadur Sanders in the center just like can't get the exchange right. And so the play is dead immediately. That's the first two-pointer they go to. And then the second two-pointer they go to,

they try to run this reverse with Judkins coming from left to right and then another player coming right to left. And Judkins just forgets to toss it back to the other guy. And you see him spin around being like, oh, shit. And it was just like this man. You're reminded of how young a lot of these players are on this team. I will say this. This to me, and a lot of the Shadour discourse, brings me to this place where it's Hanlon's razor, I believe is what it's called, never attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity.

Like, that's where I'm at with some of this. And I don't think the Brown's coaching game for stupid. I think that they're just like flubs in logical decision making in some of these situations. I don't think they're taking him off the field in that moment because they don't want him to get the glory of converting the two-point play to tie. the game. I think they're taking him off the field because they're overthinking this moment. Like the quarterback is playing well enough where you don't need to go to some gimmicky bullshit on the two-point play. Just run a play. Just run a play. I know that probably looked great all week, but even them go into the wildcat as often as they have in the red zone, that got blown up

in the first drive of this game when they tried to go to it. And so I think trusting the quarterback a little bit more in some of those moments is probably the right answer if he's going to continue to show that he can make some of the plays like that touchdown throw to in Joku in the back corner of the end zone. I think I mostly agree, but like that play was open if Judkins just tosses it. Like, it's there. I understand that. But at the same time, like, at the same time, I don't think it's as open as people have made it out to be. Like, I don't think it's a guarantee that if he pitches that ball, it ends up converting.

And I just think in that situation, it's like, you need two yards. Like, let's just run an actual football play. That's fair. I don't know where I'm at with the Cleveland Browns right now in terms of. of like how the next couple years or how the next year should go. Because I think on defense, there is enough there to be excited about when it comes to like the building blocks of this team. Your defensive line is coming back almost entirely intact next year.

I don't know what Malik Collins' contract looks like. So he was on a two-year deal. So when Lee Collins will be back next year, we'll see what his recovery looks like. But, I mean, he was fantastic this season. And he's back on like a $5.8 million cap at next. year. Obviously, Mason Graham's going to be back. You have Miles Garrett. You have Alex Wright, who you just signed to, I think, a pretty modest extension. Isaiah McGuire is going to be back. That's a really good group. Carson Schlesinger is a player. That guy is a real player.

You still have Denzel Ward. You still have Tyson Campbell, who you traded for in his under contract for the next several years. You still have Delpit. They have the bones of a real defense moving forward, and they'll have resources to continue to fill this thing out in the draft. the offense, I have no idea what's going to happen here. Like part of me, I know Stefansky gave away play calling at some point this year, part of me is just sitting here being like with an offensive centric head coach and with the offensive staff that they've built and the guy in Tommy Reese that they were excited about, even if you have a lot of talent concerns and even if you're playing with young quarterbacks,

I kind of wanted to look a little bit better than this. But I still have faith if they get decent players and there are better players in there that this can be a good offensive staff. Are they bad enough just in terms of the record where this group is not going to be back next year? If it is back next year, what is the offensive line going to look like? Part of me doesn't even want to explore any of this. Part of me just wants to be like, let's just trade Kevin Stefanski to a team that like has

workable pieces and we can all stop worrying about this. But I just don't know exactly where I land on it because it is a confounding situation. it's i think the offensive line part is the trickiest part of it to me because at least with the quarterback it's like i think you can explain away some of the weirdness in the passing game and the ups and downs by one just having a lot of other young players at the past catching positions but also too it's like you're working with right now the quarterback that was taking like quarterback three and four reps in the preseason and early on in camp and so it's just like them having jumbled around the quarterback reps so much i do think it would go a long way for the offense whether

it's Sanders next year, whether they draft a guy, I don't really care, but them like kind of spending a full offseason integrating one guy into the offense, I think it could go a long way for them. It's just, again, I don't know what you're going to get out of the offensive line. I think even if you bring some of these pieces back, what does bringing back two of them and signing a couple of other like low-level free agents and maybe one draft pick? Like, what does that offensive line even look like? Like, that might be a pretty bad unit and then we just might end up in the same spot that we're at right now. That's kind of where I'm at is that I do think that the, you know,

multi-year rebuild on the offensive line is a little bit concerning. And I come back to this, I think that they're going to regret, Mason Graham's fine. I think they're going to regret not trading back again and trying to find an offensive alignment. And there's always a chance that if you went back to like 10 or 11 with some of those teams that were trying to come up, that you were going to be out of range for all the guys that you were excited about, that you were not going to be able to get a Membu and Calvin Banks was going to be gone. And so you'd be sitting there in no man's land a little bit. I think that probably drove a little bit of the decision making.

But when you think about where this team is, I know that they were in a spot where they're saying, we just need pieces, right? Like, we're not close enough to be specific in the types of guys that we're seeking out. But I think with the quality of the defensive line and with no future answers on the offensive line, I would have loved them to address it somewhere in this draft to give them at least a bite at the apple for a starting tackle in 2026 and beyond. Right. And I almost think you wouldn't have maybe even needed to trade back again to do it. I know taking one of those offensive tackles ahead of Mason Graham in the time might have felt pretty crazy to people. But I feel like offensive tackle is kind of one of those positions you can get away with quote over drafting a guy.

Because everyone will be just like, you know, you kind of do have to spend top 10 picks on a tackle. And so obviously this is all hindsight because Kelvin Banks looks good. Armand Membue looks really good. And so like maybe just the fact that they already look good, I think maybe helps that argument. but I don't know if anyone would have batted that much of an eye for them doing that. It's a weird place to be where I feel pretty good about how the quarterback played and what the quarterback might look like over the next month. And I have no idea how I feel about the multi-year outlook for the offense,

whether they'll draft a quarterback. It's a team in a very strange place. Whether the coach will be there. I think those are all things that we will hopefully have an answer on over the next month or so as we get toward the end of the season. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then come back and chat a little Monday morning. Each week, we like to solicit some calls from fans that are just going through it that had a rough Sunday, that had a rough time with their team in a given week in the NFL. We've got two of them today, Beller, what do you got for me?

Let's hear the first one. Hey, y'all. I love the show. My name's Ben. I am 24 years old. I'm a Colts fan from Los Angeles, California. And I was born into the Colts from an Indiana-based family. and I was too young to care about the Bears Super Bowl,

but I was old enough to remember the same Super Bowl. All the cults have done my entire life has disappoint me. Andrew Luck retiring when I was a freshman at Missouri in the Mark Twain dorm. That notification, one of the worst moments of my life. And yet, somehow I think they've popped. I think the cults have outdone themselves today, and I really do feel like the fell for it again idiot meme, because this was always going to happen, right?

Like the Colts were going to win some games with Daniel Jones and the offense, and it was going to end up, you know, not resulting in the playoffs or anything meaningful. It just happened to have to happen in the most just absolutely kick in the face way possible. I mean, Daniel Jones popping his Achilles and you're, you know, Anthony Richardson, who I genuinely feel like the Anthony Richardson experience, broke me in a way that I will never be able to look at the Colts and trust them the same way after the Anthony Richardson experience. And now it's like you can't even play dude because he smacked himself in the face with a like a training band or whatever. And it's like somehow I can't believe I let the Colts and they traded two to two first round picks for a corner who got hurt like whatever.

I don't even know. is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Like anything, like they don't have the first time packs in the next two years. I'm already watching 2028 quarterbacks. I'm just rambling. Thanks, guys.

Love the show. Appreciate y'all. First thing I'll say, I was living in the Mark Twain dorm during the Bears Colts Super Bowl. And the fact that he was too young to remember it, it just makes me feel so much closer to death, which is, that's very funny and sad for me.

I wish I had something to say to make our guy feel better here. My stance on this is if there is a silver lining, it's that there are very few offensive coaches and offensive staffs that can get an offense to the place that this one was at for the first half of this season. That is a real thing to feel good about and to put some hope into. because in this league right now, having one of those guys is so hugely important and valuable that I think you should feel pretty good that I still believe Shane Steichen is one of those guys. That being said, I'm not sure where else I would turn after that if I wanted to feel good

about what the 2026 and 2027 Indianapolis Colts were going to look like. It's, I want to start by saying my relation factor to this caller is that Andrew Lucker retiring is also one of the worst days of my life. That was like, I loved that man. So that was terrible. I think for me, it's like, it's the way, he says that this was always going to happen, that Daniel Jones, it would be fun and then ultimately it would come crashing down. I think that was true.

But I think the way that the trajectory we were on was like, they run into Houston maybe in the wild card and Daniel Hunter just rip someone's head off and they lose the game. I think you could live with that, though. If you're like an 11-win Colts team, you get to the play. playoffs and you just run into one of the best defenses in the league and they beat you. It's like, that happens. That sucks, but it happens. Maybe we can regroup for next year. Daniel Jones will be healthy. We'll be good. I think the fact that it's unraveled the way it has, where the player you spent two first-arm picks for is hurt and not really elevating your defense

the way that you wanted him to. Obviously, Buckner has missed some time. Daniel Jones now is hurt. And again, it's not even just that Jones is hurt. Now you don't get to see what AR would look like in a better version of the offense. I'm not going to explain away any of the way that Anthony Richardson played in 2024, 2022, or whatever. But this version of the offense is the best that we've ever seen

it with the way that Pierce is playing, Warren being in it. So the fact that we don't get to see Richardson in it is complicating. And now even for this week, I don't know if Riley Leonard is going to play. And so they're going to be down to like Brett Rippin or something like that.

And so after having your season, you just got pushed out of the playoffs officially. You still technically by the percentages have an okay chance. But now that is being staked on Brett Rippin without all of your best defensive of players on the other side of the ball. It's, I don't remember the last time a team has had this much whiplash within like six

weeks of one season. Like, this is ridiculous. I still, and maybe I'm just delusional, I'm still at a place where if Daniel Jones were healthy, and maybe that's another consideration because he is somebody that has consistently been hurt. Well, he's also consistently been hurt over the last few years. This isn't a new thing. If Dan, and I, and we could talk about how the Achilles change.

this conversation, but if Daniel Jones were healthy, I still think, and healthy going into next year, I still feel like you land in a decent place if you're the Colts. Like, you land in the best possible place you could have after missing on Anthony Richardson. Like, even if with Daniel Jones, you were probably going to settle as like a back half of the top 10 sort of offense over the course of the season when things fell back to Earth a little bit, there's nothing wrong with that. Like we're in a place where if you have enough other stuff within your offense, there are not 32 elite quarterbacks.

Like you were going to pay Daniel Jones, the Sam Darnold contract or whatever that thing was going to look like. You were going to surround him with, I still think one of the best groups of past catchers in the league, a very good offensive coordinator, a very good running back. And I still, them like,

them struggling over the last month or so, I think some of it is fluky and I think some of it is him being hurt. Like I think they probably would, have been fine if the Achilles thing doesn't happen. Because now it puts you in a place where what are they going to do at quarterback next year? Like, are we going to be in a situation where Anthony Richardson kind of has to play in the early part of the season because Daniel Jones isn't healthy and maybe Jones just is never healthy for the 2026 season? What does that do to the contract that you're going to be able to offer him? That's where this truly becomes an issue. Like,

I think them tethering themselves to Daniel Jones by trading away those two first round picks and boxing them in, there's downside to that. And we were going to realize that path most likely. But if he was going to be healthy next year, I still think that's a path that I can live with based on all of the different ways this could have gone. Now, the fact that 2026 is kind of in question in terms of that model all falling together, that's where things get depressing is shit. Yeah, the fact that you haven't paid him yet and now you don't know

if he's yeah you don't know if he's going to play for you next year so either like you said you're back to betting on anthony richardson which at this stage especially given we haven't seen him this year and he was again somehow breaking his own face this year it's like there's just a lot of weird stuff going on there and then like if you don't want to do the anthony richards and you're completely over that you've got to bring in someone to step in for daniel jones for eight 10 weeks before he fully comes back from this achilles and then even then you don't know what he's going to look like after that so it's like this really does weirdly set them on like a 2027 timeline almost which by that point it's like

I feel like trying to evaluate what any team is going to be two years out There's no way you can't you have no idea. This league moves way too fast to be doing any of that and especially when they're not going to have first round picks to reload over that stretch. There's a real chance that if you want to get the most out of this depending on what your faith level still is in Anthony Richardson that you'll have to go out and trade for some sort of quarterback next year,

whether that's Mack Jones, whether that's Gino Smith, like something like that. If you don't think that Daniel Jones is going to be healthy enough for you to maximize next season, there's a chance that you have to try to do this again. And my God, can you imagine any darker path for a Colts fan that's had to do this pretty much every single year since Andrew Luck retired having to go back into the pool yet again because you're not in a position to draft the guy. I kind of forgot that element of it, that they've truly been on.

We joke about the quarterback carousel a lot, but they've been on it more than anyone since Andrew Luck retired. That part of it is crazy. When you thought you finally kind of solved it. Now here we are again. Solved it at least in your own way. To some, right, exactly. In your own way, you solved it.

In your own way, you got to a very, to an acceptable place with this entire thing. And now the Achilles thing kind of rips it away from you. and that's where the Colts are right now. And so I'll bring it back to saying, I think that the silver lining is, it is very hard to find high quality offensive ecosystems in the NFL, and they are extremely valuable when you find one. I do think this is one of those.

Other than that, I think that there's a lot of reasons to be very depressed if you were a Colts fan right now. All right, Bella, let's get one more. Let's get out of here. All right, let me give you a little context for this one. So this is a Falcons fan. he unfortunately didn't leave his name, but he called us once, left an angry voicemail, then he heard Rahim Morris's press conference after the game and was compelled to call back.

So now, with that in mind, let's hear this thing. Hey, it's me again calling about the talkers. I'm sorry. I can't just leave that last with mail while I got left. I'm honestly pissed off. Every time I read quotes from this man, we got to find a way. bro, you found a way to get six points. You've played your best for two and a half quarters.

I can't, this team shows itself every time to get on the field that okay for a quarter. After that first quarter, we don't have any backup plans. You run the same play three different times and three different variations. I'm a casual football plan. I can see what you're doing before they're doing. I'm pretty sure a professional person to tell what you're doing. doing without them seeing what you're doing because you do to say shit. I'm sorry.

I just had to express myself. I had to let you know how I really felt. I try to keep it contained. The last one was now. I tried to be nice, but I can't be nice no more. I've been reading all these quotes. I got to lay it out. Get rid of everybody from the top

down. It's a toxic. It's a cancer. It's been brooding here since 2016. This was want, this need of winning right away when you know you can't. That's not how the internet works. That's not how Ross a building works.

That's how franchise building works. They try to keep finding this golden ticket. Like they're going to get. Everybody's like, well, what the fuck what are they doing from Atlanta? What are they doing in Atlanta? You want to know what they were doing in Atlanta? That's shit. Okay, I'll stop running now.

Yeah, I'll go. That's one of my favorite that we've gotten all year. That's really good. It's really good. You can hear, you can hear his blood pressure rising through the entire thing. That was incredible. What do you think is the answer here?

What do you think is the right path forward for this person trying to come to terms of what the Falcons are? I don't know because I think that you can make a case that this is the most frustrating season of Falcons football in like a decade. Because obviously, let's say everything after 28 to 3. Because after that, they were still a decent team. You had the end of the Matt Ryan year, in 2020, they only won four games.

But that was also like, yeah, Matt Ryan was pretty much. That was the whole point. They were tearing it down. Matt Ryan was pretty much done by then. All right, let's move on. You can compartmentalize that. Frustrate, it sucks to win four games, but you can compartmentalize that.

This team was supposed to win the division. Like that was what was the- compete for the division. But they sold in the building and like what they were telling people, the way they thought that they could do this. They thought that they could be like a top 10 to 12 offense. We would have a, a defense that could maybe get after the quarterback a little bit.

We could generate some negative plays. We could go win the division. And the fact that I think it's more frustrating that the defense kind of was what you wanted it to be. Like they are still, you can run the ball on them. They've got some issues. But the pass rush is pretty good when they can get into those scenarios. And they've got some nice young DBs.

So the fact that weirdly the defense is not what failed the Atlanta Falcons. And it's instead the offense, whether it's the offensive line taking a little bit of a step back. The play calling feeling a little bit more stale. some injuries to receiver. Obviously London's in missing some time. Darnel Mooney was never healthy this year and they kind of tried to pretend that he was, which was another bizarre thing. And then just the play calling, I think is not taking the step that we wanted. So it's just like all of these things. And then the quarterback, Michael Penix, I don't think he's offensive, but I think we thought he could take a step in year two

and has kind of just been the same guy that we saw from the last four or five weeks of last year. This is another situation where the injury complicates things a little bit because you could at least, let's say he had been what he was for the first half of the season and the second half of this season. You can be frustrated with a lack of development. You can be a little bit disappointed that he's kind of the same guy he was and that we haven't really seen this step forward that you would hope to see. But going into next year, you know, let's say they reset things. Let's say they bring in a new staff.

I think that there's enough there with the quality of the offensive line, the quality of the run game. You go out and maybe try to bring in another pass catcher. I think there's enough to build on with the offense where you could talk yourself into him being, if not a great solution, than the offense being better than it was this year. I do think that's possible. But now he's going to be rehabbing again.

So now when's he going to be back? Is it a new staff that he's going to be back with? It just puts you in a really strange spot. But I think the, he said a lot of funny things, the caller, I think the best thing he said was, this is a team that keeps trying to fix things immediately. They keep trying to have these quick fixes

to every single problem. I think that if you, well, the coaching staff, is what it is. I don't know what they're going to do with the coaching staff because two years is not a long leash for a coaching staff despite how bad this has gotten. The front office, this is probably over, right? Like, I just don't understand how you can make a compelling argument about why this team building plan should be back when you consider how scattered and how short-sighted so much of it had been. I think there are enough young building block pieces on this team where

if you ascribe like a normal sort of process to how they should build out the rest of the roster, there's enough here to work with. I just don't know what you do with the coaching staff in that instance. Like it just feels like it probably be easier to start over again and just have a clean break and see whatever the next phase that this can look like. It probably would because I think we talked about that when we did the giant section. When on this on the hangover, when they fired Brian Dable, it's like, do you like keep anybody? Do you like, I'm still of the school.

have thought that like, for the most part, I would like to clean out the GM and the head coach at the same time, even if that probably is unfair to this coaching staff. Like, I don't think they're offensively bad. Like, I think Olberg has done a really good job this year. I think Zach Robinson this year has been a little bit less impressive, but I think based on how it looked last year, I think there's still something to build on there. And so like maybe they're getting the short end of the stick there, but I don't know. I'm usually at a point where I would like to keep everything pretty in unison, in locks up. I think the frustration with that mindset is, exactly where I would land if I were a fan of this team.

And they could try to do it consistently. They tried to do it with the cousins thing. I think that one of my through lines with leadership that consistently falls short in the NFL is that they think there are quick solutions and easy solutions to things, where there is this mindset of, well, if we fix X that was the problem last year, that's all we need to worry about. because everything else is going to be fine. Everything else is going to be just as good as we wanted it to be.

This brings me back to the way that this team approached the offseason. The idea that they added no offensive players this offseason, not a single one, because this was all about how can we make sure the pass rush is better? How can we make sure the past rush is better? And it doesn't matter that the past rush is better because your offense has stagnated and atrophied a little bit because you built in no contingencies to what the offense was supposed to be. And so I think the teams that operate this way, you're always going to run into issues because it just shows a lack of awareness and vision. And I think that has too often happened

with this regime specifically. It's so tunnel vision. That's the best way to put it. Like it's cool. You fix the pass rush on the reps where the pass rush gets to matter. But if you can't defend the run and you are constantly behind the scoreboard because your offense is not doing what you wanted to do, what does it matter if you can get after the quarterback? Like nobody is going to be afraid of you. Like I, again, they are, they do a lot of this regime does a lot of like double dipping on problems very quickly to like try to get out ahead of it. They did it with the quarterback. They did it with the pass rushers. And it's just left them kind of waiting. Like out of those four moves, the two quarterbacks and the two pass rushers, I would say Jalen Walker is the only

one that has like definitively worked out for them. And even that, like I think he's a nice player. I don't think he's been like an elite difference making player sort of yet. Yeah. James Pierce has a lot of sacks, but I think for what you paid for him. He can't be out there on first down. Like that to me is a problem. There's a lot to be worried about with this team and I'm sure we'll spend plenty of time talking about it before now and the end of the

season. For now, that is all we've got on the week 14 hangover. We will be recapping the Monday night game tonight on our YouTube channel. So encourage you guys to check that out. We get another good one, Chargers and Eagles. And then we'll be back with our regularly scheduled programming for the rest of the week.

For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys. We'll talk to you very soon.