The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 16 Recap: Bears stun Packers, Jaguars throttle Broncos, Panthers take NFC South lead, and more

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

We're just two weeks away from the end of the regular season, and exactly one team that won its division last year is in first place this year. That would be the Philadelphia Eagles, who clinched the NFC East with a win over the Washington Commanders on Saturday. Every other division, however, is looking quite possibly at a new division winner. That includes the Chicago Bears, who took firm control of the NFC North with a win over the Green Bay Packers. It includes the Jacksonville Jaguars, who went into Denver and took down the Broncos. And it includes the Carolina Panthers, who moved into first place in the NFC South with a win over the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Robert Mays, Dave Helman and Derrik Klassen recap a crazy Week 16 on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)2:28 Ravens-Patariots15:09 Jags-Broncos33:33 Packers-Bears 54:06 Buccaneers-Panthers1:04:57 Chargers-Cowboys1:12:49 Steelers-Lions1:20:56 How could you not be romantic about football?1:37:51 What did we learn in Week 16?Connect with The Athletic Football ShowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowPodcasts: https://podfollow.com/the-athletic-football-show/viewX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Hosts: Derrik Klassen and Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Pretty fun week 16 recap for you guys. Start things off with the Sunday night football win for the Patriots. A lot of stuff grabbed our attention, chatted some jags, bears, panthers, and a wonderful game from Justin Herbert. A lot of WTF moments in Lions Steelers

and plenty more to dig into with me, Dave Hellman and Derek Classen. Let's get to it right now. The week 16 recap is here. Might be my favorite week of football we've had during this NFL season. I think it's the most full throttle week of football that we've had this NFL season. I mean, if we're including Thursday and Saturday night, then absolutely. Well, we're going to talk about the Saturday night games today.

So that absolutely is included. But Derek, when you start with a Thursday night game we had, you follow that up with everything that happened last night. We have a huge game in the early window with Bucks Panthers that goes down to the end. we have a crazy finish in Lion Steelers to take us all the way through the afternoon slate. And then the Sunday night game comes down to the final few set of plays with the Patriots winning a monster game. There was never a second over three days of NFL football this week for you to let up. And that's exactly how I want it.

It was really like, yeah, maybe not the best overall Sunday, but we wired a wire. Like it does not get better than this. We talked about it when we did the Thursday night live stream, maybe the best Thursday night football game I've ever seen in terms of quality. The ending of last night's game was obviously an incredible moment for like a thousand reasons. And then I would say if anything, the sleepiest part of all of this was like maybe today's morning slate. But even that, you had like Justin Herbert and Dak Prescott going back and forth with haymakers.

You had a Bucks Panthers game that got really weird kind of at the end that maybe is going to decide the division. So even in like the quote, quietest part of the slate, there was still a lot of stuff going up. I'm going to try to find some downtime. like with the holidays, maybe I can carve out some time. I want to go actually look at like the best entertainment value from week to week of what were the best weeks, but this has to be up there for sure.

It's got to be on the short list of anything we've seen this year. It's kind of cheating because you get to slide in the Saturday night game as well. And the fact that the Saturday game was fantastic. I think it helps to put this one over the edge. But I'm certainly not going to be complaining about that being included in the slate. We're going to dig into all of that. But let's kick things off with a massive win for the new. England Patriots on Sunday night football.

Pat's beat the Ravens, 28, 24. They're now 12 and 3 per the athletics numbers, an 82% chance to win the division and still about a 40% chance to get the one seed after the Broncos lose today. Drake May with another fantastic performance. Just another frustrating outing from the Ravens in what has been a season full of them to lose a game like this, Derek,

but also for Lamar Jackson to get hurt and miss a vast majority of this game. So I think in a lot of ways, this game kind of was a proper representation of what these two teams had been over the course of the year. The Ravens feel close but incomplete and just with something missing. And Drag May has another monster outing in an MVP caliber season for him that has essentially started from the jump and never let down. And I mean, even some of like the specific beats of this Ravens seasons that have plagued them, you had Derek Henry fumbling on a drive when they were driving to score. and then Lamar Jackson misses the second half of this game because he gets hurt for like the 10th time this this season. And so you had a lot of those specific beats and then again a couple of defensive letdowns,

which even when the Ravens were really, really good in previous seasons, like that was typically what happened is they had some weird sort of defensive letdown where they would allow a team to scrape back like 13, 14 points at the end of the game and have a game like that. And then to me on the other side, I don't necessarily want to talk about like, we'll talk about the specifics of this game. But I really the more the Drake May thing goes on, I think this is the most impressed I've been by like a quarterback jumping onto the scene probably since Josh Allen. Like he, what he's doing is maybe even more special to me than what Justin Herbert did as a rookie or like obviously what Cheezer Stroud did as a rookie. Like this feels like he is immediately kind of one of those guys. Because

we had that three year stretch right of Mahomes and then the next year Lamar Jackson did it and then Josh Allen did it. And we kind of had a little bit of a lull in terms of guys who were good. maybe not immediately that level of player, I'm already there with Drake May, and I was already kind of predisposed to be, but I think he's pretty clearly one of those guys. It's a good question. I think that if you look purely,

I think you have to take a bunch of different buckets here. So the Justin Herbert season as a rookie was really, really good. The advanced numbers weren't quite as good as what they would have for Drake May this year. With Lamar, obviously he wins the MVP in year two, but that was an incredibly specific sort of offense where I don't think his game was nearly as nuanced, as well refined, as varied as what Drake May is bringing to the table right now. Jade and Daniels, the advanced numbers were very good last year. They weren't

quite to this level, but again, it was more specific sort of success. CJ Stroud was really good as a rookie, but that, even if you look at those numbers, that was kind of middle of the road. And with Josh Allen, it took three years. I mean, Josh Allen didn't, it wasn't until 2020 where Josh Allen took that huge step forward, even though he took an incremental step in his second season. I think Mahomes in 2018 is probably the, I mean, I think objectively, that's the best second season we're ever going to get from a quarterback. If you look at the production that year, all of it. But I think Drake May is probably right in that conversation for whatever the slight step down from the Patrick Mahomes 2018 season is. I'm currently trying to reconcile. I mean,

you just listed off several guys where, and we had this conversation before the season started, where you got to follow it up. You got to prove, like you got to, maintain some consistency. Obviously, I mean, it's mainly injury related, but obviously Jaden Daniels is the latest guy to not live up to that phenomenal breakout season. I'm trying to reconcile wanting to be patient and wanting to keep that stuff in mind versus also thinking that what Drake May has done this year feels like a different animal. And obviously, you had none of those concerns with Patrick Mahomes in 2018. I mean, when you throw for 50 touchdowns and take your team to the AFC championship game, it's just sort of a given that that is something you can count on.

And so I'm trying to find the middle ground there where I do think this is on a different level from that, even if it's early. I just don't know what box he's not checking for you. You know, today he has the pick in the red zone. He leaves a couple throws inside. You know, he's imperfect. I think that you should be expected for a quarterback in his second season. But with Daniel specifically, and we talked about this so much in the offseason, Derek,

where his strengths were so pronounced that the weaknesses mattered less, but the weaknesses were still there. Like, there were elements of his game that you still want to see a little bit more from him. I don't know when you watch Drake May right now, like, what is Drake May not doing that you would like to see Drake May do?

Nothing other than just being like 23 or 4 years old. Can just do it longer? Do it for two straight seasons instead of just one. Like, that's really the only thing that I think Drake May still has to show us. And I think, the competition level is going to be a question for some people, you know, but he has another great game tonight. The Ravens defense isn't like a stellar defense, but this is a pretty good

unit. They've been playing well recently, too. They've been playing well recently. I think that the amount of pressure they got in this game today, I think is kind of the outlier for this Ravens performance compared to some others. They're bringing a lot of interesting pressures, a lot of DB pressures, and I think Drake May was under fire a lot in this game, and I thought he did a fantastic job of navigating it. I mean, The play he makes following the OPI on that third and 15 where he climbs up in the pocket and fires that rocket to Stefan Diggs, he's doing that consistently. Even the interception he throws down in the red zone, that's a third and 14 where him not getting sacked on that play is a miracle.

He steps up in the pocket. There's two guys coming untouched off the edge. His pocket movement and mobility and his ability to climb in that space, keep his eyes downfield, and hunt out chunk plays, combined with some of the. accuracy down the field. And that ball he drops into Kyle Williams, like, holy shit. And that, it's not different. That's not an exception compared to everything that we've seen from him all year.

Those sorts of plays, Derek, are exactly what we've come to expect from him this season. Yeah, I think what box does he not check is like the perfect way to frame it. Because again, like Jaden Daniels last year was awesome. But like you said, there were certain holes in his game that either he was going to have to patch up or like maybe defense. as they got a little bit more on and we're going to catch up to it. I just watched Drake May and there's nothing that I feel like. And, you know, we kind of talked about this a little bit last week when he said,

you know, what the bills did in the second half of their game. Was that something that maybe teams could jump on him for and maybe the, you know, teams could replicate that. And I just like, I just don't view Drake May as a player that it's easy to, to just catch him like that. I just feel like he's so complete that that felt like a one-off game plan. I feel like that's how I feel about him moving forward. Like you can't really blitz him.

If you get him outside of the pocket, he's one of the, the best in the league already. He really does not put the ball in harm's way the way that I think he had a reputation for, especially early on in his career and coming out of college. I mean, even the pick he throws in this game, it's like, I think it was third down and he throws it like inside the five. Like, obviously you don't want to get picked because you can still get points, but I didn't think it was that criminal.

Like, I just, he just does so many things incredibly well and so often raises the level of everybody around him that it's, I just watch him and it all feels very, it just feels like he can do this exact thing for 10 years and there's not really anything that that defenses are going to be able to do about it. The Ravens pretty much keep pace in this game for almost the entire game. And I think really the only thing you'd complain about in the second half is I wish they hadn't gone away from Derek Henry in the way that they did. Because at some point, I'm pretty deep into the fourth quarter, he had like a 67% rushing success rate.

Keaton Mitchell was down in the 20s. And it felt like every time they were handing the ball to Derek. Henry except when he fumbled, it was going to be a successful play from the Ravens, and then he didn't touch the ball for the final 13 minutes of the game. Which feels, I don't know what to do with these guys anymore. And, well, is it going to matter?

Does it matter? I don't know. It might not matter. I mean, now we're in a place where if they play Saturday against Green Bay, if they lose that game, it is mathematically over. And then even if they win, if the Steelers beat the Browns, it's over. It's over.

So it's not, and we talked about this. It's not mathematical, but it feels done. And I mean, you can point to a dozen different things. The inconsistency. I think it, you said it, it's fitting to be frustrated by a Ravens performance. And even, obviously, it looms large when you lose Lamar Jackson at half time of the game. But it fits in nicely with what this season has been like for the Ravens. Losing Lamar Jackson has nothing to do with you giving up three.

180 yards to Drake May and them moving the ball in the way that they did throwing the ball down the field. And even just that last touchdown to Ramandre Stevenson, like the Patriots offense are a good, this is a good offense. But the fact that another team pushed the Ravens around, especially in the second half of that game, there is just is not an element of this team. Even when Lamar was healthy in the first half, they weren't moving the ball at will. We talked about it coming into the game. I just think that there is not a single aspect of this team that like truly skisks. cares you right now. And tonight was another one of those examples.

It just the Ravens have not had the teeth this season that they have had in years past. And I think that we've felt that for a while now. And I think what was both frustrating on the Ravens part and incredibly impressive on Drake May's part was like the Ravens stopped the run incredibly well and got them into a lot of tough down and distances. And for a lot of this game, they knew the Patriots all they wanted to do was drop back and throw the ball. And obviously they got some amount of pressure because the Patriots were on like offensive have tackled 74, it felt like, in this game.

And so they got a little bit of pressure that way. But like for the most part, this just did not feel like a Ravens defense that even though they knew what they were probably going to be getting from this Patriot's offense, really did not have an answer for Drake May. Like, Drake May was finding the go balls down the field. He was able to step up in the pocket and find some of those overrouts. I'm even continually impressed by how quickly and efficiently or like, I think the best way I can describe the way Drake May gets to checkdowns is he will hold on to the ball until

the very last second that it's possible for him to get the, to check down out accurately. Like he'll be stepping up, sliding, looking for the overrout and just kind of like whip it to the swing route or whatever it is. And he doesn't even look at it. He just trusts that he can get it there on time. I think just his ability to do all of that, even despite the defense knowing that he's going to continue to be passing.

I thought it was just incredibly impressive in this game. You mentioned the remandre run to take the lead late. Worth mentioning too, the Patriots lose Trevian Henderson early in the in the, if not the first half than early in the second half. I don't specifically remember right now, but you don't have him for a huge chunk of this game. And he's been such a huge part of what they've done over the last month or so. I mean, he had 490 rushing yards in their last five games heading into this one. I think he was the betting favorite to win rookie of the year heading into this week.

And so to lose him. And not that, I mean, Drake May has been shouldering a lot of this for the vast majority of the season, but to just lose that arrow from your quiver halfway. through and not really miss a beat. Yeah. I'd be remiss to not mention just the bat-shit insane plays by both teams in this game. The Patriots try a fake punt from their own territory. It looked like it was supposed to be a pass, and that just completely goes awry.

They clearly wanted to run it earlier in the game and checked out of it. So they saw something they thought they could take advantage of, incorrect. And then to follow that up, Mark Andrews decides to, I still don't know what. Oh, my God. The idea that that tried to lateral the ball. in that situation is just, again, what a weird, weird raven season this has been. Zay Flowers was all of us in that moment where he's just like squatting on the field. Like, what did I just watch?

And so there was that. And then I actually do on the fake pun, I want to shout out. I think it was Keon Jackson number 39 for Baltimore. It looked like they were trying to throw the ball down the left seam. And Keon Jackson just bales the hell out of there and actually gets under it pretty well. And I think it's scared Mapu out of throwing it. So I just thought that was a really good play by him. Or Zayflowers fumbling.

I was going to say, like, The fact that Zayflowers fumbles in that moment when the Ravens still have a chance to win the game, it's just so many things stacking up against this team, but not in a way that feels surprising at this point, given how the season has gone. Before we move on, let's take a quick break. All right, let's get to some of the other standout performances from week 16. It is time for you have my attention.

Gentlemen, you had my curiosity. Now you have my attention. The Jacksonville Jaguars beat up on the Denver Broncos at mile high, 34 to 20. The Jags are now 11 and 4. They have clinched a playoff spot essentially. 79% chance to win the AFC South. They are in position if a couple of things go their way to actually be the one seed in the AFC after winning this game today, even though the Broncos still have, I think, the best odds at about a 50% chance.

the Jacksonville Jaguars playing their best opponent in a little while since they started getting hot post by you guys officially have my attention can I be honest I feel a little bit like the dog who caught the car with the Trevor Lawrence stuff like him being good now are you like you're too vindicated like you're like I was never expecting it to look this good like it's it's it's not like that it's just feels weird that I'm that it's that it's finally here that he is playing this well because I think even when he had been better earlier at earlier points in his career was a little bit more quick game like in the Doug Peterson offense. And I think for him to finally be allowed to be the downfield like aggressive

throw into tight windows quarterback that I think he was coming out of Clemson and I think has shown at certain parts of his career that he really wants to be. The fact that he is just not being grieved consistently by his teammates is he just looks like a new guy. This is our football hipsterdom manifested right here. Because like we're always having more fun if we're trying to convince people that something is good, you know? And like once it's unquestionably good, it's not interesting anymore. We've got to move on to the next thing.

Let's be transparent about the Trevor Lawrence experience because in by the end of the 2023 season, I was still banging the drum of like, I promise you guys that the offense is crumbling around him. He's still playing well. He is there. We should not give it up. still have a candlelit for what he can become. Last year in the 10 games before he got hurt, that was harder to do.

He was not playing as well in those 10 games before he got hurt last year and Mac Jones came in to finish out the season. And so I think even the most ardent, let's be clear, the most ardent Trevor Beliebers never gave up. I love to say, I'm on the show here. I never gave up. Those guys never gave up. I definitely soured on what it could look like, even in better circumstances, because

I just didn't think he was playing very well last year. I didn't think he was playing that great in the first half of this season before they're by. This is a team that was like bottom five in a lot of advanced metrics when they were trying to throw the football before their buy. And then what they have clicked into since the buy is incredibly impressive. And I think Derek pointing out that it's not just Trevor. It's a lot of the things happening around him, I think is so important. Because today, obviously, he makes a handful of incredible plays. And we can talk about that.

But I was so impressed at what the offense overall was looking like against one of the best defenses in the league. A couple of short-circuited drives early, takes a couple sacks, pressures getting to him. But you look at what some of the role players and just the supporting cast did in certain moments of this game. My favorite play, I think, of the entire game to kind of explain this, happens with like 10 minutes left in the third quarter.

And Lawrence hits Parker Washington, like the left flat against the big seven-man pressure. for a big chunk game. There's really nobody covering him to that left flat. As the Broncos are bringing the seven-man pressure, Lawrence actually brings Breton Strange into the formation to block. And then the Quint Allen, who has been really good in past protection a lot this year, so I think you believe a rookie running back,

steps into the A-gap to take on the blitzer. The right side of the offensive line perfectly sorts out the seven-man pressure. So the Broncos bring seven, the jags block it up with seven, in part because he changed the protection, and in part because of the job everyone else does, he finds Parker Washington for a huge chunk game. Like that's the type of stuff where you just watch an offense

that is playing in sync together, where all of the pieces seem to be clicking. And then you have a quarterback who feels comfortable and confident with his level of talent, and now you see what he's capable of when everything else is starting to fall into place. And that just really hasn't happened at any point in his career. And it meant so much to me,

and you just touched on it. This game started the way that we worried that it might for the Jags. First two, he sacked on each of their first two possessions. Three total times, I think that they'd sacked him the third time within the first five minutes of the second quarter. And it very much felt like,

yeah, this is what we were worried about. This Denver front is no joke. And then they didn't touch him again until it was ballgame. Like, he didn't get sacked again until it was 3420. And a lot of that, I think, is because he, knew where he was going with the football, he had a pass rating of 147 on throws of two and a half seconds

or less. Like he was just dealing, getting it out quick, very decisive with where it was going. But yeah, on top of that, like handling the protections, dealing with Denver's pressures. Like, to have it look as bad as it did early and pull it back onto the highway as effectively as

they did, it jumped out to me. I was super impressed by obviously Trevor Lawrence, again, Trevor made a number of incredible throws. He continues to do the thing where now he can just make plays rolling to his left again in a way that he did not before. He did it in the first quarter. Like he got it out of his system immediately in this game.

But then he made a number of throws like one of the dig routes that he threw to, I think it was Jacobi Myers like over the middle of the field right over a backer was incredible. But I was actually really impressed by Liam Cohen for a number of reasons. I thought between the 20s they just played a really good ball. Like he just called a really good ball game. Obviously like I think one of my. favorite calls was in the middle of the second. They shifted Brenton Strange into this like offset eye to the left hand side. And then they slipped him out through the right side of the offensive

lines around. They're beautiful. They're out over Dre Greenlaw. Trevor hits that, which I thought was a really nice play. And then there were just to me, if you watch the first couple of drives like Dave was saying, they were just getting bludgeoned for a lot of them. But also the Jags operational stuff in the first like quarter was really, really bad. Obviously it's Denver, high pressure environment. It's loud. they actually kind of figured it out as the game went on and they got a little bit better. They cleaned it up. Obviously that third and nine that you mentioned where Trevor kind of sorts out the blitz,

he's getting that off at the last second. But the fact that they were able to somehow gather themselves and not freak out completely in a way that, again, like last year's Jaguars team probably would have. They would have taken three more penalties somehow. I just, I'm consistently impressed by when Cohen and the rest of the staff and this team has to actually answer the moment, they're doing it in a way that I'm not used to seeing from the Jacksonville Jaguars. I thought that play you mentioned to Brent Strange to me is like the coolest play design of the entire game

and then the touchdown they score on that drive is a 21-yarder to Travis E-TN or excuse me I don't know that's a touchdown but it was a 21-yard pitch to Travis E-TN that sets up the touchdown for them to go 14 to 10 it's right after that play that you just mentioned and on that play it's a little pitch out to the right side

and if you watch the job that Parker Washington and Jacoby Myers do as blockers on that play they almost like get into a de facto combo on the dbs because of how the pieces are moving and that's to me what really shines about this offense outside of this crazy stuff that Trevor's doing that digger out that Derek mentions that's like a beautiful throw that he's been doing a lot of where it's in rhythm he rips it over the middle of the field that stuff it's not a given because it's still relatively new him looking like that and the offense looking like that but that's stuff you can come to expect from a guy that's as talented as he is when you look at all the

little things that everybody in the offense is doing to contribute to this and just how reliable the past catchers now feel compared to what it felt like early in the season, that to me is like the starkest difference about this entire thing is that they're just for so many different reasons. Operational penalties, drops, just a level of like inexperience and discomfort and immaturity. A lot of a young skill position players that felt like they didn't even know where to line up half the time. And now having Washington, Myers, we joked about it when they traded for Myers, Derek.

It's like, we're just getting another slightly better version of Parker Washington and that it feels like a guy you can rely on within the offense. And now there's so many guys on that team where it just feels like you can rely on them within the offense. And we are really starting to see the fruits of that. That was the other thing. Like I think between the 20s,

Liam Cohen, cooking. When they got into the red zone, it was honestly, especially early on for the like first two or touchdowns they got the Jaguars guys were kind of just winning ISO ball in a way that again I'm not used to really seeing from Trevor's receivers like Parker Washington the the catch that he makes over the nickel corner on the left hand side on like a slot fade Trevor leaves that like a little bit short and Parker Washington turns back and goes and gets it just like the fact that they are making some of those plays now they're not dropping as many passes as they were early in

the season overall and then you've got Liam Cohen you know finding ways to get into plays where again, especially after their first two or three drives were completely torpedoed for him to find some adjustments and get into stuff. I just, again, I'm not used to this Jags team being able to get punched in the mouth and then get back up and go beat a really, really good defense.

I was also really impressed with how quickly he was getting rid of the ball on some of those quickouts and they were doing it in a bunch of different ways. And so it was actually something I had noticed before the Packers played the Broncos is that the Broncos for a team that plays a lot of man coverage, plays their corners off. a decent amount and there is space underneath

if you're willing to take it and the Jags they hit it in a bunch of different ways. They were either hitting it if the outside corner was playing a little bit soft. They hit one to BTJ early in the game for like a nine yard game where he was the number one receiver just against the perimeter corner quick completion. They had multiple plays where they would

run off with the number one receiver and then whoever was the slot receiver to that side he would run a little quick outbreaker. They did that to Brian Thomas Jr. at one point and then one of the biggest plays of the entire game it's actually like a weird kind of cover two look to the right side and Trevor throws the really really really quick out to Parker Washington even though that is a tight window to make that throw Parker Washington makes a guy

missing space turns into a 63 yard gain and so just the combination of blitz pickup type stuff being able to get chunks down the field that were schemed up him getting rid of the ball quickly when he should and then guys making plays for him in a moment like that like every aspect of the offense seemed to fall into place today in a really impressive way on the road against a really freaking good defense. On the flip side of that, and credit to the Jags for doing it, but you can combine those two points that both of y'all just made.

Jags go four or five in the red zone, which Denver had allowed 15 red zone touchdowns all year coming into this. So to go four or five against them in one game is wild. They hadn't allowed that many red zone touchdowns in a game all year. You do that. And on at least a few of them. those. Yeah, Jags players are just mossing guys,

for lack of a better term, just out out playing Denver defenders in high leverage moments. And then, yeah, Parker Washington had two huge yak plays. He had like 90 yards of yak in this game. And I don't know if it flips the outcome in a game where you're leading comfortably for a lot of the second

half, but those two mistackles, one leads to a touchdown that puts you up 3117, like they're in the end zone one play later. And the other one lets them burn three more minutes off the clock before they kick to go up three possessions. And I hate to single out Riley Moss, but those are two big plays that have a huge impact on the game

where, like I said, high leverage moments in the red zone where you just get out executed. And we think so highly of this Denver defense, you don't make tackles, I don't want to call them routine tackles, but tackles you could make that drastically swing the outcome of this game. And it's just not what we've gotten used to seeing from the Denver defense. A couple of plays that go their way.

on the other side of the ball. Obviously, Bo Nixon, I think it was RJ Harvey, fumble in exchange at one point in the second half. That's a fumble. You get the ball back there. There was a third down where Nick's kind of rolling to his right, fires one to Pat Bryant, who's moving toward the sideline.

It's just a little bit behind him. That falls incomplete. And then my favorite play, I think, all day from the Jags defense happened in, about 10 minutes left in the second quarter. The Broncos had a third and two while they were driving. And the Jags had like a little run stunt on where Trayvon Walker loops inside,

and it was just perfectly clean. And he comes untouched, coming back inside from the edge, makes the play in the back field, forces a field goal to keep a 10-7. And so just one, two, three plays from the Jags defense combined with how explosive the offense fell

and just how many contributions you got from everybody on top of the way the way Trevor Lawrence is playing right now, and that's the performance that you can get from this Jags team at this moment. another the Pat Bryant one, whether you want to call that a drop or a misfire, I think it's probably both.

It's a combination of both. Yeah. But again, that leads to a Denver punt where the Jags take the ball and just zip right down the field to kick the field goal before half, which that's normal NFL stuff. It's not necessarily normal Jaguar stuff. And like when they did that,

and I think Trevor, Trevor was like five of six or six of seven on that drive, just hitting completion after completion. That was the dig that, yeah, that Derek was talking about did, Jacobi Myers. When you watched that play,

and it's so funny, I did a video about Trevor Lawrence on our YouTube channel earlier this weekend, and if you guys want to go check it out, it's kind of fun to dig into. And one of the numbers that really stuck out to me

is all the throws, the percentage of his throws that are coming, quote unquote, what next gen calls in rhythm, which is 2.5 to 4 seconds after the snap.

And that is not necessarily like an exact science. There are reasons, a bunch of different reasons, you're throwing the ball between those, in between those kind of markers. But when I watch him truly in rhythm within the offense,

that dig is exactly what I'm referring to or what I'm thinking about. When you watch that play, which comes in the two-minute drill, as Dave just said, he gets back at the top of his drop, he has his eyes to the left, and as he's moving back to the right to get to that dig, you see like the timing, the hitch,

and just the perfect rhythm in how he's making that play and letting that ball go. And to me, Derek, it just really speaks to the, just a comfort level that he has really started to develop within the offense. And I think that should be scary for other people. The fact that so many of these guys within this offense right now seem to be as comfortable and confident as they are. It should be. Like if he's always had the talent, right?

And I think you've seen flashes of this, but some of his worst moments have been like he'll get to that exact throw. And then maybe he would like kind of extra hitch or he would pump the ball a little bit. And then he'd be a little bit late or something like that because he either didn't trust the offense or he didn't trust his receivers. And now he's to a point where I think he clearly trusts how he functions in the offense. And now, especially with Jacoby Myers, he trusts the guys that he's throwing to over the middle. So he has no problem just getting to that. And like blindly throwing it is probably not the right word.

But he will just throw it trusting that it's going to be there and that his guy can finally make the play. Any different feelings about the Broncos after this game? Um, I, I just, it was disconcerting to see the defense. like that. And I just, I kind of highlighted it already. I don't need to go into it again. But it's like you're, you're going to lose games. You're going to give up points in the NFL. But again, like just the red zone stuff, the tackling issues. It, they didn't, they didn't look like the unit that we've seen for so much of this year. It just didn't, that doesn't inspire a ton of confidence considering when you're going to get good Denver offense.

You're going to get bad Denver offense. The constant is supposed to be the defense. and that would scare me a little bit if I was invested in the Denver Broncos. For me, I think it's just every team has these games. I'm not sure I'm that much more down on the Broncos defense overall. It's one bad performance out of at 15 at this point. Who gives a shit about the numbers, like the advanced numbers, but the Jack's at a 40% offensive success rate today.

Like they had to go 8 of 15 on third down to make this possible. The EPA play numbers were great because they were explosive and they were really good in high leverage moments. But down to down, Derek, I still feel like this is a very good defense and it's going to give most of the teams they play a lot of trouble playing and play out. I agree.

Like I think having this kind of performance at the end of the season with another team that might get the one seat is frustrating. But I think sometimes just when you play defense the way that Denver plays, you're going to have a couple of volatile games. And I think credit to the Jaguars for scheming up a couple of nice plays,

kind of like that Sayor Out that we were talking about to Brenton Strange. And then again, like the Jaguar is just one iso ball today, which like that's going to happen. even to the best defenses in the league every now and then. And so I like you would not like to see this happen three weeks before the playoffs, but I ultimately didn't feel like there was anything that you can really like pick on or exposed necessarily. And even some of the weakest parts like I think you can kind of pick on Denver's like nickel and their slot. But like I thought that coming in.

All right. So it doesn't really change. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. The big sale, uh, throw to strange is over a linebacker. Like it's the exact type of play we've talked out and seen from them. 100% and it just got picked on in the worst way in this game like that's just going to happen sometimes

I will say this the all of a sudden like the Broncos you know they won however many games in a row they were 12 and 2 they're still favored to be the one seat in the AFC but they could still lose the division to the chargers and that would annoy me if I was a Broncos fan after this run and this season to be sitting here like we're at the point in the season where with what the Broncos have done I would, you know, I'd be thinking, I would think we'd be kicking our feet up and scouting wildcard opponents and like, or potentially playing for the buy. And the division's not locked up yet. And that would piss me off if I was a Denver fan. But yeah, I don't think it drastically changes my, my opinion of this team.

Let's talk about something that's not pissing me off as a fan of an NFL team. Chicago Bears knock off the Green Bay Packers, 22 to 16 and overtime. The Bears are now 11 and 4. they currently hold the two seat in the NFC after the Lions lost today. The Chicago Bears are officially a participant in the 2025 NFL playoffs. They now have a

92% chance to win the NFC North after a Packers lost to them obviously and the Lions lost to the Steelers. So we are we're here, my friend. The playoff bound Chicago Bears. The playoff bound Chicago Bears you guys officially have my

attention. Can you set the scene for us? Just listeners of the show know that you're a Bears fan, that you're from Chicago. So, like, just set the Saturday night scene a little bit. We can do some context here. I don't get a chance to watch games out of my house very often. And I wasn't sure if I was going to,

and so I didn't invite anybody to come with me. I went to just the sports bar down near my place, and the place was packed. And it was a really cool experience. It was just a really cool experience to be out, in the city when this team is relevant and good and then for it to go the way that it did. It was hilarious. I mean, I think it was, I was telling you last night, just like on social media, after the Zakiya's drop in the fourth quarter, there was a guy like two seats down from me where he was just like, I'm done.

Like, I'm just, he was unraveling in real time. Like, I think it's the frustration of them being just good enough to drive you crazy, but then still potentially falling short. and so for it to go the way that it did over the next 25 minutes of real time after that play for them to go down and score the touchdown tie it up we'll talk about how they did that and then for it to end the way that it did there was like strangers hugging me in public

like that we'll talk about it later but like that's exactly that's everything that you want it's everything that you want from a moment in what has been a pretty magical football season we'll get into the nitty gritty of the game for sure and this goes back to what we said at the top of the show twice this weekend. Because like I'll, we see each other every day. And Derek, we talk to you like, we talk about this stuff all the time.

And you've got your friends that you might chat with about the Bears or the NFL in general. We had two games this week where people I never talk to were hitting me up. Just like, are you watching this shit? That's how you know you got a banger on your hands is when you're just texting or calling just random people just because you need somebody to share. in this experience with. And that's what Seahawks Rams was. And that's definitely what Bears Packers was. Derek, where do you want to start with like the most important moments of how this

game went the way that it did? And we probably to start at the end if you want to. I mean, like those final couple drives. And to me, like the moment that really sticks out from the two moments from the drive where they tie the game, he hits DJ Moore on a dig route on that drive to go down and tie the game. That's just a beautiful throw for like 20 yards. And he throws that ball on time.

That ball's coming out before DJ even gets out of his break. DJ climbs the ladder to go get it, gets them down inside the 10-yard line. And then the way that that drive ends, I mean, everybody's seen it by now. But the touchdown to Walker is just an incredible play by Caleb Williams. This game, and the reason that I think the offense was so frustrating early on, it kind of reminded me a little bit of the first half of the first package. Packers game, where the Bears in a lot of dropback situations were really struggling with their protection plan.

The Packers over the course of this game had seven unblocked pressures. It's just too many. It's really hard to be successful down in and down out as an offense. This is one of those plays that touchdown to Walker where there is an unblocked pressure. Caleb retreats just enough in the pocket, in the face of that pressure to throw this ball off his back foot to a guy that's just coming open to tie the game for a touchdown. Be honest. Did you think it was catchable when it left his hand?

Somebody in the moment when the ball was in the air, it was a wide, why did he throw it out of bounds? I thought it was going to be uncatchable. I think I even said like, no, Caleb, like it did not look like it had a shot. It was so cool. And it's an incredible, it's a cool catch too by a guy that is playing his first meaningful NFL snaps ever despite being a preseason darling. It was incredible.

Like, I think him having that moment, Caleb was talking about him after the game, obviously to the media just in terms of like all their work together knowing that he was going to have to play in this game. And then to me what is so impressive about that fourth and four where they end up tying the game is that obviously Green Bay is in like that cover zero look, they end up getting the free rusher with how they manipulate the past protection plan. But they also pop out one of their defensive linemen back into that slant window coming from the right side.

That is supposed to be like the young quarterback trap. That's the San Darrell interception from Thursday night. Yes. That is the we are trapping this guy. We're going to get him type of call. And Caleb was just like, nope, I'm going to back up four steps. I'm going to just toss this one up to my guy. And even if, you know, Green Bay didn't flub the coverage, obviously two of their guys kind of

miscommunicate on who's supposed to go cover the corner, that's still the right throw to make. And like, whether or not Walker would have made it if it was covered, who cares, process wise, that's exactly what you want to see. So it's one of those things where I think there's some degree of like, oh, he looks wide open. But it's like Caleb is doing everything you could possibly ask of a high level quarterback. in that situation, and then he does end up making the throw.

And I think that to me speaks to what I was most impressed by with this game overall with Caleb is that outside of maybe one or two throws, and I know his completion percentage wasn't super high, I thought decision making wise, he was like pretty close to perfect in this game. Like, I thought he was absolutely nails. I didn't have any problem with a lot of, there, I think there was one, like, deep corner route that he missed. And that's one where you like him to have that one back.

That's a missed throw. Other than that, my main issues, and I don't think they were like pronounced issues, I think that overall the passing game, like I said, felt unsettled because of some of the protection plan issues. And I think he compounded that at times by being a little bit jumpy in the pocket, where there were moments where he didn't need to be moving as fast as he was based on who came and who didn't. And he was feeling a little bit sped up.

And so when you look at, he started 10 of 21 in this game. A lot of that is he's just burning balls out of bounds to avoid sacks. because there's unblocked pressures. There were a lot of perimeter blitzes coming in this game. So I felt like it was a combination of the offense didn't handle that well. And he made it worse at times because he was playing a little bit faster than he needed to. But when it came to where he was going with the ball and the accuracy he was going there with, I don't take issue with almost any of the decisions that he made over the course of that game.

I think that's actually fair. There were a couple of moments where especially early on in the game, he felt a little bit like he needed to get out of there a little bit, probably sooner than he needs. too. I guess it's like what you were saying. I think in terms of like when the ball left his hand, there just weren't almost hardly any decisions where I thought he had made the wrong decision. I think there was one seam ball down the right hand side that he tried to throw like under the quarter safety and really fit that one in. I was like, that's a little bit aggressive. I don't know if we need to do that. But otherwise I was like, he just is putting the ball where it needs to be

to his guys. And then obviously the Packer, we go to overtime after the onside kick recovery, which if you're a Packer, we'll get to the overall frustration in this game if you're a Packer fan. The fifth out of 49 attempts this year. The fifth out of 49 attempts. And for a team that, in my opinion, has maybe the most scarring onside kick failure of all time, a game I was in the building for. Like, I'll never forget that. I've told the story a million times.

But I was in the building for the Brandon Bostic failed onside kick recovery. I was in the visitor's locker room after that happened. I've never seen a human being want to disappear more than Brandon Bostic after that game. And so for a fan base that has that trauma in the background, to have another moment like that. I mean, the parallels are eerie. That's a tough one. Even if it's at my benefit, that's a tough one.

But they go down in overtime. And I said to the guy next to me at the bar when it was fourth and one, I was like, because the Bears defense, we can get into this, Bears defense still was not good enough for most of this game down to doubt. I mean, the Packers did a fantastic job

with Malik Willis in the game to kind of keep control of the game for a majority of this. The Bears needed an onside kick to win. But when it was fourth and one, I said, The only way they're stopping this is if they fumble the snap. And then they fumble the snap.

And then they just get the ball back. Everybody listened to everything you had to say for the rest of the night. They were like, let's talk. Really quickly. Let's talk to this guy. Before the fourth and one, the play T.J. Edwards makes on the third and one roll. It's an incredible play. It's a game saving.

That is like game saving. That is you, as the offense, you call the boot for a quarterback like Malik Willis. Because you know if the flat route's not open, he's going to take off and he's going to get us the first down. And for Edwards to know that that's what's coming and be so quick to jump on it, I was like that, even if the defense overall failed the bears in this game, that play, I was like, man, that is, that, that was incredible. So the bears get the ball back, obviously, start driving, and get to about midfield. I think the final play comes to the plus 46. The call, everything about how that play unfolds is beautiful. The bears are in 13 personnel with,

I believe it was Durham Smyth in the backfield. They had been in 13 personnel, I think, on six other plays over the course of the game. They'd run the ball on all six of those plays. You're about 10 yards away from a makeable field goal. Even in those conditions, Cairo Santos was nails the entire game. You sure was. You're about 10 yards away from a makeable field goal. So the Packers are in, okay, we need to make, we need a negative play here.

Like, we need to create negative plays in order to stop ourselves from losing this game. Knowing that you're in a run-first formation out of a run-first personnel group in a run-first area of the field and to call that play is beautiful and a great choice by Ben Johnson and it's one of the throws of the year. I mean, it's everything about that throw from Caleb Williams

is a play that very few guys can make. The timing he buys to his left just very subtly in the pocket and the placement, 57 yards in the air in a 20-mile-an-hour wins game, perfectly outstretched hands for DJ Moore who makes a phenomenal catch-on, that play, there are only so many plays that happen where you know in the moment, I'm going to

remember that forever. I want to remember that for the rest of my life. And that's exactly what that play was for me, for Bears fans, for everybody I was sitting with in that place last night. It was beautiful. It was everything you want in what has been a pretty magical season up to this point. It was such a moment. And I love DJ more getting those moments at the end of the game, too.

It's been an up and down year for him. I think people have been disillusioned at times with what they're getting out of DJ more. But really to make those two plays because he had the deep dig to get them close on the game tying drive. And then obviously, I don't know. I'm not qualified to put it in the pantheon of all-time Bears plays, but certainly one of the best Bears plays of the last two decades. So cool. And like he he had nothing left in the tank

when he got done making that catch man. Like the way that the ball just kind of dropped out of his hand onto the ground and he's just lying there. Like he didn't have the energy to be excited right in that moment. It was really cool. The last KL play I want to talk about before getting into the Packers side of this, the play he makes with another unblocked rusher

on the little flip to Monongai go into the right side. That to me is another one of those like, all right, like we're, we're starting to get there now. Like, he, you, the way the game is kind of slowing down a little bit and just the playmaking that you're starting to see, that's another small one where it was like, okay, like, this is really, really exciting. Is that the little flat route he threw like right out of the half? Yeah.

Dude, that, I had that in my notes too. It is just, it's so impressive how much torque and flip he can get and, like, drop his arm angle without moving his feet at all. Like, he's stuck in that spot. knowing that the free rusher is there and he just like turns and it just happens. I just, he is one of those rare throwers where I think you again, we saw some of that in college, but for a lot of his rookie year, that just didn't show up as much as you thought. The fact that that part of his game, he's starting to like re-unlock him being what he is as a

scrambler. Like he really is one of the most unique athletes, probably at the position that I've ever seen. Like obviously Josh Allen is a little bit more force of nature. Lamar Jackson is a little bit more force of nature. but for him to just be as nimble as he is is like I just, he's incredible, man. The fact that we're making good on what he was supposed to be is it's incredibly fun to watch.

He's one of the most physically talented quarterbacks to come in a very, very long time. Like that's just undeniably the case. It was all just a matter of channeling it. And listen, there are still gaps that need to be filled in. There are still elements of his game that need to be better. But the overall progress and how far he has come from last year to this year

and how comfortable he's starting to look in year one of this system and him being able to channel what those tools bring him, it is undeniably exciting. This team has gotten a lot of fortunate breaks over the course of this year. We'll talk about some of them in a second. But the overall arc of how this is going and the foundation that's being built as part of it is something that is just so undeniably exciting that it's impossible not to get worked up over it. There's somebody in my position.

the way that they overcame their own inexperience in this game to stood out to me I mean they were flagged 10 times for 105 yards in this game

penalties were huge and speaking again like this is a game where people are crawling out of the woodwork to talk to me about the game the number of people that were mad about the ruffing calls on the bears in this game

was like no those were all by the book ruffing calls every single one of them is going to get flagged every time. Malcolm Roach got flagged for a body weight roughing the passer in the Broncos Jags game today. That shit happens all the time. So to make so many very undeniable mistakes like that

and to dig out of it, I thought it was really impressive because you could even throw Ben Johnson's, you know, the fumbled fourth and one on the opening possession. There was a time in this game where I was like they were too amped up. They were too focused on beating the Packers and like what that might mean and they just, they got out

over their skis and they were not ready for this moment. And then all of a sudden they were incredibly ready for the moment and it like flipped in an instant to where I, yeah, I was like they just, they made too many mistakes. They were too undisciplined. They were too amped up and then next thing I know

Caleb's making an all time iconic NFL throw. They've been fortunate, but they've been resilient. The level of mental toughness across the board for a young team has been incredibly impressive. My feeling about the first half of the game was you've squandered too many opportunities against an offense that's moving the ball seemingly at will even with the backup quarterback. They went one of seven on their first third downs, then they had that flub on the fourth and one in plus territory. With how the Packers offense was controlling the game and controlling the ball, I thought that would be enough. And so that brings me to how maddening this game must be if you're a Packers fan.

for them to feel as in control as they did deep into the second half when you lost Jordan Love for most of the game. I thought that for like the first two and a half quarters, and honestly for most of the time the Packers were on offense, I thought Malik Willis and Matt LaFleur were excellent down to down. Like the run game was incredibly consistent and every time they needed a chunk. They seemed to dial it up in the right situation. It's like, okay, you think we're going to come out on the first play of the first half?

on the first play of the second half, they come out and throw a play action and try to get a chunk off of it because I just think they had a really good understanding situationally of what they needed to do when Malik Willis is in the game. They moved the ball so efficiently, so consistently,

the Bears defense seemed to have no answers until the ball got into the red zone. If you go 0 for 5 in the red zone and you don't recover an onside kick, there's probably a decent chance you're going to lose the game that you just played. And that's exactly what happened to the Packers. Yeah, I was actually,

really impressed with their game plan for Malik Willis. Because it was very, it was awesome. Like it was a lot of boots, which obviously the third and one we talked about got shut down, but they hit some really nice boots. Some QB incorporated run game, which obviously Willis gives you to that, gives that to you over a guy like Jordan Love. A lot of their like deep play action shots, I swear they called sale for him like four times where they're trying to throw that like

deep corner out to the tight end with the vertical receiver outside of him clearing it out. They called that at least two or three times for him. And then it was just a lot of you could. tell like, okay, go one to two, take off. And he did an incredible job at that, which he has done in the past when he's had to fill in for Jordan Love. And they've won some games doing that. So I'm continually impressed by what Malik Willis can do off of the bench.

And I really think, again, like this came down to the bears in the red zone were surprisingly good. I think also I had a weird experience watching this games in terms of the Green Bay offensive line. Like I know they ran the ball well for a lot of this game, but it just still felt like there were a lot of moments where guys were. just getting completely dumped and they were just, it was like a weird experience looking at the numbers

versus compared to how I felt actually watching it. Well, I felt watching it like the offensive line. I mean, in the run game, maybe that's a different story, but the bear's pass rush in this game was disgustingly bad. That's, I think that's what it. The pass rush was not getting. Disgustingly bad. And so we talked about it coming into the game.

Like, okay, they played a lot of man and they blitzed a lot in the first matchup. Are they going to do that in this game? They did the exact opposite of that in this game. they did not blitz and they did not play any man. That was their game plan coming in and they got zero pressure whatsoever. And that combined with the run game success for the Packers, they were in control from wherever they got the ball in their side of the field to the 10-yard line, this entire game.

And they came away empty on five red zone trips. The biggest one and the most important one and the one where the Bears deserve a ton of credit. Nashon Wright, just being able to seemingly take the ball away in a crazy impressive way almost every single week. I mean, that's his ability to do that all season has been insane. Like, just remarkable. You know, I got to point this out because it was a good correction on their part of somebody on Twitter. Because I made the note, Dan Quinn loved Nishon Wright when he like he oversaw the decision to draft him in Dallas back in 2021.

And Nishon Wright was drafted in the third round. It was a decision that surprised a lot of people. Not very many people were that high on Nashan Wright. And I pointed that out. I was like, that's Dan Quinn's guy. And every team in the league had a shot at Nashan Wright this year. He could have been in Washington with Dan Quinn. But the fact of the matter is he is playing under Al Harris,

who now once again is getting D.Bs to take the ball away at an absurd rate. He did it in Dallas. He was there when Trayvon Diggs and Duran Blan. both did their thing and had those seasons. And now Nashan Wright, I think is going to be a pro bowler. I think he's going to go to the Pro Bowl, which is an insane thing to think about when you think about the journey we were on at the beginning of this season and what the Bears secondary looked like.

And to make a play like that, to not cap off yet, I mean, there's still plenty more football to play, but as kind of a crowning moment and what's been a really fun season for him. I mean, they're in the playoffs. A game that they needed to get into the, the playoffs combined with the Lions lost. And so just a phenomenal moment and a phenomenal game from a Bears team

that has been a lot of fun this entire season. And now we will get to see them in the post season. Let's get to our next one here. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers lose to the Carolina Panthers 23 to 20. Panthers are now in first place in the NFC north. They still

have less than a 50% chance to win the division because they play the Seahawks next week and then the Bucks in Week 18. But this is a massive win. for the Panthers and their effort to end up winning the NFC South. The Carolina Panthers, who I think every time we've talked about them on this show and they have won, it's been in the what the fuck segment because it's a game of the other team shouldn't have lost. We're not doing that this time, even though the bucks were favored on the road.

The Carolina Panthers, the eight and seven Carolina Panthers who now control their own destiny to make the playoffs and win the NFC South, you guys have my attention. I'm very happy that we decided to frame it this way. And it is worth pointing out the Bucks still have the easier path to getting this done. And the return game in this is in Tampa. So maybe this doesn't amount to anything. But home underdogs team that has shot itself in the foot on several occasions, including twice against the New Orleans Saints,

which is why they're in this position. Actually, did you realize? I didn't realize until I was prepping for the show. Lathen Ransom, the rookie who picked off Baker to put this away. that was the guy who hit Tyler Shuck last week. That was the guy. That was why they were in this position in the first place, or at least part of it.

You talk about a week to week league. What a cool story for him. And what a cool story for the Panthers. The NFC South is definitely a WTF type of division. But they were the better team. And Bryce Young was the much better quarterback on Sunday. And it's worth shouting out. I was impressed by the defense, man.

I was really impressed by the defense, really impressed. I thought the defense played a hell of a game. They had a couple of cool just like pressures in the middle of the second quarter with about five and a half minutes left. They had a third and 13 where Tampa Bay had been pretty backed up. And they had Christian Roseboom over the right B gap. They loop him over the two defensive tackles. He gets free and goes in Sachs Baker. It gives Carolina a pretty free field position after a decent partner turn.

They go and put three points on the board. There was a lot of that type of stuff throughout the game. And then to call out one player specifically, Nick Scorton, Monster. Incredible in this game. He was so good, man. Like there were just multiple instances where the first one was with about seven minutes in the first quarter. They pop him off the line of scrimmage actually on like a little pressure look where they're bringing some of the backers.

And the bucks throw a screen his way. He's immediately on it. He had multiple plays where a tight end is either slice in his way. Oh, it was Kate Aton multiple times and he ate his lunch multiple times. The one on the goal line where he's just right over him and just like malls him, throws him inside. incredible play. There was another one in the fourth quarter where I think Otten is kind of moving over towards him.

Scorton like dips under it, breaks through him and gets into the backfield. Like I just, Scorton has had a quietly pretty good rookie season. And I say quiet because nobody gives a shit about the Panthers defense. But this was his like, you should go and watch this game

if you want to get excited about what a rookie defender looks like in this league. I thought that on both sides of the ball, the Panthers brought the physicality to the Bucks in this game. And I thought on the defensive front, you felt that consistently. That stand they had inside the five,

about midway through the second quarter, it starts with Scorton blowing up Kate Otten on the edge, and then Rose Boom joins in to kind of make this stuff. On the next play, DJ Wanham takes on a polar and no one blocks Rose Boom. They get another stuffed run. And then on third down, Claude and Sherrillis and Aishon Robinson

just blow up a run to the left side. So they completely shut all that down. You mentioned the play where Scorton upends Otten in the fourth quarter, that's a like a uh-uh sort of play and on the other side of the ball i thought there were multiple really nice moments from kind of we mentioned the jaggs ancillary players coming up as as blockers in this game i thought chummy tremble had like several incredible moments as a blocker in this game like right away with like it was i think on their first drive he had they hit that reverse to the right side and he just puts benjamin morrison in like the bench on the other end of

that that was incredible and then on that same drive i want to say they had like a 13-yard run to doubtle and the combo block that him and Mitchell Evans hit to that side. It's like that's when you watch a team just top to bottom, have guys chip in in huge moments in the biggest game of your season.

That's what it felt like for the Panthers today. And on both fronts, I think they got some really nice moments on each side of the ball. And then you combine that with Bryce making some really big high leverage place. I mean, to me, the coolest stretch of this game

is the touchdown that they get to Jetavian Sanders to go up 20 to 17. On that drive, he throws a contested back shoulder ball Bryce does to T-Mack on the right side line. T-Mack goes and gets it. And then multiple times on that drive, Bryce is making plays with his legs.

He had a design run for, I think, like, nine yards. Brother. And then the play Jertavian Sanders, he has to create that play by extending, bills out to his right, find space, touchdown, and again,

in the biggest moment of the Panther season. This play is the most fun I had prepping for the show, specifically the end zone angle. And I don't want to relitigate Bryce Young's viability as an NFL starter every time we talk about him. But that is exactly the type of play where when it's not so good for Bryce, we sit here and we go, can he can he do it at this level? Is he big enough and strong enough and athletic enough? Go watch the end zone copy of this, man. Vita Vaya stunts around and gets like a free run at Bryce.

Young, which 6-4-350 against whatever Bryce Young is, like 510, 198, 205 if he had lunch. Like, crazy. Gets a free run at him. Bryce Bales. Yaya Diabi is 6-4-270, and he's beating Josh Nainam, and he grabbed him by the feet. Dude, twice Bryce's size had him by the feet. He gets out of that, and then he goes on and does all of the creation stuff. I mean, and the Logan Hall gets a run at him.

That's 6-6-283. And like, again, if you go watch the end zone of this, it looks like a T-Rex, like stomping toward its prey. And Bryce Young gets around him and puts it right over Antoine Winfield's head. And it just, it was so gratifying to see him make that type of play and be like, yes, he can do this stuff. I don't know how consistently or what it means for the big picture, but it was cool to see.

And then he has the throw late in the fourth quarter to Coker. against that pressure look that he just drops in the bucket on the biggest drive of the game. And so I think there were five, six, like huge moments from him combined with the way the rest of this Panthers team played today that were incredibly impressive. He was also,

Todd Bulls blitzed him on 16 dropbacks, and the bucks got pressure on 11 of the 16. And not like, not the best numbers you're going to see all year, but he was 611 for 88 yards and one of those touchdowns. Like the pressure did not bother him whatsoever. On the other side of the ball,

the bucks are just, they look lifeless right now. And Baker just isn't playing well. I mean, like, I think we can just kind of come out and say it. Like, now they're healthy enough where you wanted to see just a little bit more life and a little bit more oom from this offense. There was a play late in the second quarter that just kind of left me shaking my head

where I was like, this just looks really bad right now. There was a slant to Mike Evans coming on the left side. He doesn't throw it and he eats it. And then he kind of panics in the pocket before running up in the pocket and then throwing the ball at Emeka Abuka's feet. And it's just like, what is this? You combine that sort of play from the offense. And again, them getting pushed around a little bit on defense.

And I just think the bucks are in like kind of a troubling place right now. Even if they end up winning this division because the Panthers lose to the Seahawks next week and the Bucks somehow sneak out and win in week 18, it's just really, really hard to be excited about that. And even if they make the playoffs right now. They just don't feel like they got it. Like Baker is better than what he's playing like right now, but he's just not playing well right now.

And I think part of that he's been banged up obviously this year. He has like some shoulder issues and it's possible that that's still lingering and that's still bothering him. And he's thinking about that a little bit. I also think just the way that Baker plays sometimes, like there's just going to be vacillations in his play every now. and then. And I also think what was really particularly frustrating to me about watching this game start to finish was that the first Bucks drive is like what the Bucks should look like. Like they hit a

couple of nice screens. Baker did make a couple of decent throws. They get into the high red and they run like this nice crunch play, which is like a double trap to the left side for like 10 yards. That gets inside the five. And then they throw a one-on-one ball to Mike Evans. It's like that's what we all paid for. That's what we came to see. And then they just really weren't able to hit on any of that for most of the rest of the game. And like you talked about, a lot of that was, I think the Panthers Front Seven

specifically playing incredibly well in this game and kind of taking it to their offensive line. But it was just so annoying to feel like we got the Bucks offense again. And then it was immediately stripped away from us for the next 50 minutes of the game. They could win the division and barring some sort of

miraculous playoff run that seems incredibly unlikely based on what we've seen for the last two months. So if they won the division, they'd be the four seed. and then they would probably play whoever doesn't win the NFC West. Yeah. They play the Seahawks or the Rams.

They'd probably get smacked. Yeah. And that's what I was going to say. It's like they could win the division and unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat, is that going to make anybody feel better about the season? Considering you were five and one on top of the world? Like, it's hard to imagine an outcome that doesn't put the bucks

as one of the most disappointing teams in the league for 2025. We set on the preview show coming into the week. I feel like we've arrived in a place where this is like, like truly the worst case scenario for how the buck season could have gone after the way that it started. And I feel exactly the same way today as I felt on Thursday when we said that. The one saving grace is, and I don't even believe that as I say it, but they get a game against a Dolphins team that just benched its quarterback to try to get right and put the vibes back on track before they play the Panthers again. But I, you can't take anything for granted. You can't assume

anything good about the bucks right now based on what we've seen. Get to our last one here. Justin Herbert lights up the Dallas Cowboys in a 34 to 17 win. The Chargers go now 11 and 4. They are a playoff team. They still have a 25% chance

to win the AFC West per the athletics numbers. They still have a shot at the one seed after winning this game and the Broncos losing that game. They average 0.34 EPA per play today per true media with a 57 percent success rate. Coming into the game, we said the Cowboys defense has been a get-right game for a lot of

offenses. Can the Chargers offense look good against the Cowboys defense? I would say that they did. Justin Herbert, you officially have my attention after a game like this. Your offense still has this level to them no matter who the competition is. That's so weird because Matt Iverflus moved into the booth for this game. We're solved everything. The Quinn and Williams trade and the Matt Eberfluse thing were supposed to solve the Cowboys

defense doesn't seem like we got there. No, it doesn't seem like we got there at all. Listen, I know saying this after a Cowboys game is kind of funny, but I've echoed these thoughts before, so I feel like I can get away with it. This is the most MVP season for a guy who will not even sniff the award. Like he, I tried to sell Robert on that this morning and he shut me down.

So here is the nuance in that discussion I think is important. The MVP is not given to the most valuable player to his team. The MVP in the NFL traditionally is given to the player who has created the most value. you. That's a different conversation. I get that, but I think when I vote for the MVP, I'm kind of thinking about who is, is like the most load-bearing player.

And like, that's not how it's awarded, though. I don't care how it's awarded by them. Yeah, it's not what it's become. Like I, I just think that what he's doing is this is like a, this is like a three or four win team without Justin Herbert.

They are terrible. I think that's fair, but I, that doesn't mean he's the, MVP of the NFL or should even be in the conversation for us. I think he should absolutely be in the conference. Can you name, there are not five people more deserving than him? Again, it's the discussion of who is most valuable to his team and who is the most valuable is, those are different discussions.

As soon as Dave said that to me, Justin Herbert is like 14th and the total EPA has created among quarterbacks this year. He has not been the most valuable player in the NFL. And what would it be if his team wasn't terrible? I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that's not how we give up. the award. I think I'm,

I think I just think the way that we give out the award is stupid maybe. I don't know. But that's so silly. You just like give it to Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen every year though. It has to be tied to performance and production to some extent. I, I get that. But I still don't think I could reasonably think of five people I would give it to before

him. There's, I just don't see how I could do it. If you want to bring up Justin Herbert and like when we talk about the MVP and be like, no player has been more valuable to his team than Justin Herbert is like a one-off thing. I think that's totally fine, the idea that Justin Herbert in this season, when Matthew Stafford, Drake May, Josh Allen have done what they have done, I know Josh Allen didn't have a good game today, but coming into this game,

if you look at their numbers and the value they provide to their team, Justin Herbert does not have a reasonable case to be the most valuable player in the NFL this year. Yeah, I'd still vote for those three before him. I'm saying he's playing at that level. Yeah. And it's being grieved. That's completely fair. We just want a podium place.

That's all. Just put him in, as long as he's mentioned when the award gets handed out, I'm fine. I don't need him to win it. But what he has done in these circumstances has been incredible. Heroic. And there's no denying that. But like the idea that the most valuable player to his team and most valuable player, again, are two different things. And with the way we hand out the award, it's the latter, not the former.

That being said, he was insane in this game. He was absolutely insane in this game. I mean, there's like six plays we can talk about. The go-ball touchdown to Quentin Johnson is a ridiculous throw. Just an absolutely ridiculous throw in the first touchdown of the game for the Chargers. Just beautiful placement down the left sideline. He throws, with 14 minutes left in the second quarter, just a missile shot to Trey Harris over the middle of the field into a tight window.

Just like an absurd, an absurd throw. The one I pointed out to Dave in real time happens with like 11 minutes left in the second quarter. He kind of dips out to his left. a little bit of time moving left and has like a little sidearm flip to Will Disley for a chunk play. The McConkey touchdown, I don't know what Malie Cooker was doing on that play, but it's a well-placed ball down the right side line. The missile shot he has to cue to Quentin Johnson with 14 minutes left in the third quarter while climbing the pocket. That's really the only one I want to talk about. Like it's just like it's ridiculous.

So we love we love the phrase whole shot and Justin Herbert is like, the king of taking hole shots, he out threw the hole on this play. Like there was, there was green space between, it was, uh, back shoulder,

back shoulder hole shot is essentially what it is. It's unbelievable. It just, it just kept going. I was like, oh, okay, it's going to settle in right there

where Malikooker's trying to close on the space, and it just kept going. Fifty four yards in the air to Quentin Johnson. There's, there just are very many people who can throw the football like this guy. To pin it on him, with that much velocity is crazy

because you'll see like, okay, a guy can step up and he can throw it 50 yards, but it'll be like a drop over his left shoulder where it's got a little bit of an arc to it.

That has no arc. He's just like throwing that through his outside shoulder, 48 yards down the field. That's just like, they didn't make a whole lot of those guys. He's a 34-yard scramble at one point in this game.

And then he throws a crosser to Quinn Johnson with like six minutes up in the fourth quarter. It's like, all right, I'm done with this guy today. Like I just, and that's the,

type of performance that we got from Justin Herbert. It is against the Cowboys defense, but that's exactly what my question was heading into the week. Like, can he do this against the Cowboys defense? I want to see them at least reach this level, even if it's against a bad defense. So we get just an understanding of what the offense is capable of in decent circumstances. And just to get a better understanding of those circumstances, the Cowboys become the only team this season to not sack Justin Herbert in an NFL game.

Bad company, man. Wow. You like that? That's good. And they were getting pressure on him too. So it makes it honestly more remarkable. I think he had like a 39% pressure rate. So not abysmal by any means.

And the Cowboys just couldn't seal the deal. His EPA per dropback is the seventh best of any single game performance by a quarterback. Top 10 among all quarterbacks this year. How many of those games against the Cowboys? At least Caleb's was up there. I think it was only two. Oh, that's surprising. Yeah, I agree.

tied for the Chargers second best success rate of the season and their best success rate of the last two months tied for their best explosive rate of the year and the one that it tied was the week one win against Kansas City. So I don't know how much it means, and this is how we framed it going in. It would have meant something if they couldn't do this. And the fact that they were able to,

it's at least encouraging to think that they can do this against the worst defense in the NFL. Dallas has allowed 34 or more points six times this year. They have allowed 30 or more points eight times this year. They've allowed 27 or more points 10 times this year. I think the Chargers scored points on five of their first six possessions. So it's been that kind of year for the Catboys defense. We'll see what happens going into next year because I assume some changes are coming.

Before we move on, we're going to take one more quick break. All right, we only have one real WTF entry this week, but it's a, dozy. Let's get to it. What the fuck. Everything about the Steelers Lions game. What the fuck? Where do you? I don't even, this was one of those games where I think the reason this is

a perfect WTF game is that I felt like at the end of every quarter, it was a WTF for a different reason. Like I, like the fact that early on it was as competitive as it was, I was like, that's kind of weird. And then at the end, at the very end of the second quarter, Kenneth Gainwell makes an unbelievable.

will catch while he's on the ground. Like him and Alex Anzolone like kind of get tripped up. He falls on the ground before the ball arrives. And he's just laying there and he kind of like one arm catches it under like he gets his ball under his hand between the ball and the turf and makes that catch gets up and runs and scores. Just like start to finish this game was insane. And then obviously ending with all the penalties and like the was it a touchdown.

Was it not a touchdown? Was it an OPI or not an OPI? Like at the end like every beat of this game was complete bad shit insanity. Yeah. the Kenneth Gainwell play is like the fifth craziest thing that happened in this game. That's all you need to know about the rest of it. Kenneth Gainwell, with five seconds left in the half, catches a ball on the ground for a massive touchdown in this game.

DJ or D.K. Mecalf fights with a fan in the stands. We have what seems like a game-winning touchdown for the Lions. After Chris Boswell misses what is for him a chip shot field goal, that is wiped off because of an open. The Lions then get another chance to win the game. They seemingly do win the game based on how that play was officiated. Amon Ross St. Brown catches the ball at the goal line, doesn't get in, pitches it back to Jared Gough.

They rule it a touchdown if the penalty hadn't happened. Another OPI does happen on that play because Jalen Ramsey does a great job selling it. And because the clock is at zero, the game is over. That's what happened in this game. That those, for all of those beats to happen in one single game is pretty wild. And you left out Isaac Tislaa making one of the better catches of the week as well. It was a lot, man. It was, and it was like I, I think we, when we previewed this game a little bit beforehand,

like we thought it was going to be a weird game. I just, I didn't feel like it was going to be a weird, like, I didn't feel like they would actually end up pulling it off. And you know what I mean? And even outside of some of the, I think, moments that made this game very WTF. I know the Steelers front has their moments and the Detroit offensive line has not been very good this year. The Lions had a 27% rushing success rate. Oh, I have it less than that.

I have 18%. I had 16%. They could not move the ball. And then the Steelers on the other end ran for what? Like over 200 and something yards. Yes. They were able to control it. They had multiple Jalen Warren explosives that they popped.

Like they just, like the Steelers so handily controlled this game from start to finish in a way that I don't. think I was ready for. It's, it's, that means you've heard this before. It's because they control the game up front on both sides of the ball. Yeah. They control the game up front on both sides of the ball. So Lions had per next gen an 18% design rushing success rate. And if you look at it, it was a combination of a lot of stuff.

They were dominating the interior, especially early in this game. The Lions had, Chris Mahogany was back in this game. He comes out at some point. But they have a backup center. And Keanu Benton was getting after him multiple times early in the game. And so the mismatch on the interior was in favor of the Steelers early on. And then you had multiple different plays in this game where in some cases it was Alex Highsmith who's a starter.

But with Herbig and Watt out, we're digging into the depth for the Steelers' edges. And Jack Sawyer also comes flying off the edge where they beat the puller to the ball multiple different times for TFLs. And so that they control on the ground on both sides of the ball, the Steelers won this game. and then you go back and watch what it looked like when they dropped back to pass, 10 pressures on 45 Aaron Rogers dropbacks. It just not nearly good enough. And this is a Steelers offensive line that is a little bit banged up.

Spencer, I loved it. It was hard to keep track of in a way that I found very cool. So Spencer Anderson was playing left guard in this game for Isaac Salamalu, who's hurt. But when the Steelers go to their six offensive linemen package, he's their extra offensive linemen. and so they brought Andres Pete in to play left guard in some of those moments. And so you got Spencer Anderson bouncing back and forth. And then you have a backup left tackle in this game.

And so I thought the performance from the Steelers offensive line, that first 45-yard J-Wen Warren touchdown, you have Pete and the backup left tackle. It's just a beautiful combo block. And Spencer Anderson kicks out the guard. It's a 45-yard touchdown out of the gate. So for them to be banged up and really control the game on that side of the ball with a tatters kind of offensive line.

I thought was incredibly impressive. On multiple of those Jalen Warren pop runs, they're just running like weak zone to the left with like the lead fullback. And Spencer Anderson is just like mauling the guy in front. I think multiple times was Roy Lopez in this game. And he just did like an incredible job of moving him out of out of space. I would say too on the other side, I thought Joey Porter Jr. played a phenomenal game.

Like he just multiple the fourth and one stop in the fourth quarter where the lions had driven down there. He does an incredible job. keeping tight coverage until the very, very end of the play. He earlier on that drive had a stop, I think knocking a ball over the back of Amunrah, St. Brown, multiple stops later in the game where he was getting hands on it. Like, I thought he was incredible. And then to give the entire defense a little bit of their flowers, they really were strong.

I thought inside like the five, inside the 10. The Lions didn't really have anything but like pick plays. And they were able to find some success with those. But whenever they tried to boot inside the five or whenever they tried to run the ball inside the five, they had nothing. It was either pick play or we are not scoring here. And I think to, even if the lines had some success with it, to limit them to only being able to win that way, I actually did think was pretty impressive on their part.

We typically, you and I, there are very much aligned that like the flags even out in the end. They literally evened out in this game. The Sewers also had a touchdown wiped off because of an offensive pass interference. There were four OPIs called in this game, by the way. And I spent a healthy chunk of time trying to figure. out how often that's happened. I couldn't get there. I just didn't have time, but that just feels like a wild number of OPI flags for one game. But what I was going to ask you, and you're right,

they did even out, but the two OPIs that happened at the last gasp were like, were they obvious enough to be justified? I think the first one on Tisla, absolutely for me, the Amin-Rossame Brown play, I don't even know what to make of it. I mean, you mentioned Ramsey sold the shit out of it. when you extend like that and it's visible like that, sometimes, I mean, that's a play that's going to get flagged. D.K. Mekha had one earlier in the game. And so, like, that's just the way that they were calling it. On the pick plays and in those sort of tight situations.

And so I don't, it's just, I've said this a million different times. I've been doing this show for five years. I've been doing the shows overall for 15 years. It's got to be so f***ing egregious for me to want to talk about the referees. And I'm sorry, this does not rise to that level, especially as it gets evened out over the course of the game. Lions fans are from sure going to be pissed off. I really don't care.

There was one funny penalty that actually went the Lions way. On the last drive, and I'm not even saying this shouldn't have been a penalty, but the DB, maybe it was Kyle Dugger, like dives over Jameson Williams back trying to knock the ball out. It's a little bit behind him. It's like a weird bang, bang play. And there's no flags initially.

And Jameson Williams sells so hard, petition so hard for a penalty. And then you see like two or three flags come in late. Yeah, it was done. Well done. It was DPI, but it was like the latest flag ever. And that's when, when, really, when Rogers threw the third down away before the two minute warning, I was like, all right, we're going to have some weird shit. And at the time, I thought it was going to be 32, 24 and we were going to, you know, be doing a two point play to see if the game goes to overtime. I didn't know Bosworth was going to, or Boswell was going to miss the field goal. But from that moment, like when you get to that point, especially in Detroit, you just know shit like that's going to happen. Like if it's close at all on a game deciding play, you're probably going to get a flag like that,

whether it's just like in high leverage moments in basketball. You see that type of stuff all the time. We had a tripping flag. Did we mention the tripping flag? One of the weird freaking things that happened in this game. Just safety in this game, speaking of Kyle Dugger, it's actually a really cool simulated pressure. The Steelers ran a bunch of those in this game.

I actually thought some of the Steelers, wrinkles defensively, were really fun, given the fact that they had some edges hurt. I don't understand why every once in a while we get these like one-off game plans from the Steelers where it's either because they're playing against Joe Burrow or because their guys are hurt and they're doing some interesting shit. And it's like, why aren't we doing this all the time? Why does it take these specific situations for you to start doing some stuff that makes it hard on the other quarterback?

It feels like pulling teeth, man. It's like they just so common, they so consistently convince themselves. oh, we're talented enough. You know, guys will make play on the ball, we'll play our zone defense, and somebody's going to go get a hand on it. And like, they're kind of right sometimes.

But yeah, like you said, you get T.J. Watt banged up, multiple pass rushers. It's a good Detroit Lions offense, even if the offensive line isn't that great. And they were just like,

ah, you know what? Finally, we'll pull some stuff out of the bag today. The Dugger one, I thought was super good. Do you think the Steelers are legitimately good and legitimately scary?

I can't do that. I'm not asking you. No. No. Okay. But I don't know. Okay, here's, I thought of... I think Rogers just looked pretty good the last few weeks.

I don't know what to do with this. I truly don't know. I will say this. What am I trying to say? They win the division. They get the playoff game at home. I guess that's my point. I don't know how good the Steelers are,

but I also don't know how good anyone else is. Yeah. Combine what we've been saying for the last few weeks about how wide open it feels and how you're, you shouldn't be giving anybody the benefit of the doubt. We're not going to talk about them in detail tonight, but the bills barely escaped the Cleveland Browns, by the way. Taking that into account,

both the Texans and the bills barely escaped today. We're hitting those two games on the hangover tomorrow. So they are on WTF watch, but we are going to dig into both of those games in-depth on tomorrow's show. Yeah, if you get a good Steelers front game and Aaron Rogers makes two or three sick throws, The back shoulder throw he made to DK late in this game. Crazy throw.

And he had multiple, like, really nice plays in this game. He had the fourth and two to Scotty Miller. He had, like, a really nice 18-yard completion of Darna, Washington on a third and five, where it's a simulated pressure. He has a ton of time. Like, I just, again, I think they're limited. But I also think everyone else is pretty limited. And so I don't think they're necessarily, if I was, like, stacking up the ASC hierarchy,

I don't know where they would fit in all of that, but it all kind of feels like a jumbled middle to the point where I'm just like, I don't know. I mean, I guess they could win a playoff game. That's okay, I don't buy the Steelers as a team

that could make a legitimate run. I buy the Steelers as a team that could ruin somebody's year. And like, I bring up the bills on... Let's say they play the Chargers. Sure. Let's see the Chargers get the five seed.

Oh, my God. And they play the Chargers in the Wild Card round. The Steelers could absolutely beat the Chargers in a playoff game. And the Chargers vastly outplayed the Steelers. on Sunday night football at, like, I mean, that was a while ago at this point, but again, that was at

SoFi Stadium. That was in L.A. on a carpet. Playing that game in January in Pittsburgh changes the calculus for me a little bit. This is a very Steelers season just in the sense that like it really does feel like we have like the Tomlin Witchcraft is like fully in effect. But it's a season where

the witchcraft, I think, will work on a larger number of teams than it has in previous years. It almost feels like the Steelers have pulled everyone in the A. down into the muck with them. And now we get to see what that fight looks like. I feel like they used to be able to do that on like an individual game level, but instead they have brought just like the entire league quality down to where they're at.

I also want to just, I want to bring this take to the air because I really, really enjoyed it. He is a Pittsburgh Steeler, but the sway that Aaron Rogers holds over the NFC North in this moment. Again, I said it was kind of weird rooting for Aaron Rogers. to win that game. Bears fans were rooting for Aaron Rogers to beat the Lions and put them in the playoffs. And Lions fans are pissed because Aaron Rogers just broke their hearts at Ford Field. Where have I heard that before? Rogers even said it.

He was like, yeah, I've had some really cool memories in this building. Most notably in 2015 or whatever year he threw the Hail Mary was. It was just, I said it a week or so ago, wherever this goes for the Steelers, Aaron Rogers as the Steelers quarterback has delivered as well as I could have. ever dreamed. I'm so happy with what we've gotten out of Aaron Rogers as a Steelers quarterback, no matter what happens next. This entire Aaron Rogers

situation and this entire Steelers season has been very fitting for what the 2025 NFL campaign has felt like. And today I think it's just an extension of that. We'll have time, I think, on future shows and just in general to kind of eulogize whatever this version of the Lions is. They have a huge uphill battle to make the playoffs.

6% chance now. They're 8 and 7. I mean, you combine the offense being much more up and down than it's been in years past, the interior offensive line injuries that they've dealt with, some of the injuries that they've had to deal with on defense, it just feels like a lot of the marginal stuff about this lion's season has gone the other way. And that's how you end up with an eight and seven Lions team 16 weeks into the season. All right, like we said, we will hit the Texans and the bills tomorrow. Got a couple more things we wanted to hit today. Let's talk about some stuff that

made us feel romantic about football in week 16. I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty. Speaking of the Lions, Derek, what made you feel romantic about football in week 16? Yeah, I'll keep it to this game. And Dave actually mentioned earlier, the Isaac to Slot touchdown. So all the Lions are doing is they're running hitch seams. Your two outside receivers run little five-yard hitches. Your inside guys run these seams. You're trying to attack the free safety over the middle.

On this play, the safety's free safety is a little bit inched over to the right-hand side. So he is kind of daring Jared Gough like, hey, man, I'm leaving a little bit. bit space over on this other side. You want to go throw the seam over there? And it's basically a, it's a like who's going to blink type of thing. Like the safety's daring golf to make that throw. Goff is daring him to go and make that play and get there in time. And the fact that it is so bang, bang and Tislob makes the play in tight coverage holds on to it. Like that is football, man. Like good on good, both making incredible plays and it coming down to inches is like that's, that's what you get up for. When he didn't make the play late in the game, I was honestly surprised.

that he didn't come down with it, considering what we have gotten from Isaac Tesla for most of this season. And Kyle Williams, too, by the way. Like the three hours after Isaac Tuslaw makes that play, Kyle Williams is like, bet, I got you. Dave, what made you feel romantic about football in Week 16? Derek and I joked about it on the preview show.

And I thought it was well within the realm of possibilities that the Titans could beat the Kansas City Chiefs, but it actually happened on Sunday. And it makes me feel romantic for, variety of reasons. Number one, I just, I love, I love that nature of the NFL where shit's going to happen and seasons, games, weeks don't go the way that you envisioned. And guess what? They're going to spot the ball the next Sunday and you got to go do something about it. This is not the Kansas City Chiefs that we've gotten familiar with over the years. Patrick Mahomes

has heard, Gardner Menshoe got hurt in this game. I get it. This is not. The Titans did not beat those chiefs. Still a really talented roster. I mean, George Carl Offtis played in this game. Chris Jones played in this game. Travis Kelsey played in this game. Nick Bolton was out there. Drew Tranquil was out there.

A lot of those dudes were there. This was a team that was favored to win in Nashville. And the Tennessee Titans went and beat them up. And it, I mean, it sucks where the chiefs are. And I hate that Patrick Mahomes is hurt. But again, everybody in the league is dealing with that stuff. and the Tennessee Titans, they don't have time to worry about where things stand with your dynasty or any of that shit. They got to learn how to win football games and get their young quarterback up to snuff.

And guess what? Cam Ward played the best game of his NFL career on Sunday. Best passer rating of the season, only his second triple-digit passer rating, best EPA per dropback of his season, third best success rate of the season. Titans converted 9 of 17 third downs and six of those conversions were Cam Ward completion. He did all the shit he does every week. Like he's got, you know, go turn it on and there's two or three just goofy plays where you're just like, yep, that's why he went number one overall. Goofy compliment, by the way. And he just, he looked like Cam Ward.

He has thrown eight touchdowns and one pick since the Titans by week. And they are two and four. So it's starting to come together and you see it clicking and you see it looking better. and to culminate with a very convincing win over Kansas City. Like I said, all that stuff be damned. I mean, you're going to play a game on Sunday afternoon, and the Titans did it. And if all of that didn't make me feel romantic enough,

after the game, Jeffrey Simmons talking about Cam Ward said, he's the reason I keep telling people I don't want to go anywhere. And not to get... That gives me chills. That's enough. Not to get too far ahead of myself, but look, it's been bad for the Titans. they've won three games. This stent pushed them to like the number four or five overall pick.

But look where the Patriots are. Look where the bears are. It can happen that quick if you get the right people and put the right stuff there. And that's not to say that some crazy thing is awaiting the Titans in 2026, but hope springs eternal in this league like every single week and every single year. And I thought it was a cool moment for the Titans and a sudden. sign of hopefully what could be in their future. We talked about this. When you have the season that the Titans are having, it's hard to be in

that building. It's hard to do it every single day. And to have a moment like this, what Patrick Mahomes or not means a lot of the people in that building. And I think they're going to have a hell of a night tonight. Speaking of having a hell of a night, what happened with the Bears last night made me feel romantic about football. It was, I think people, as I've done this job for a while. There are people who wonder like why I've maintained my relationship with the team in the way that I have or why I've kind of held on to my fandom as it falls away for people who do this job for a while. And I've said, I've talked about it before, but I think there are a few different things that come to mind. One is just maintaining a connection with what it feels like to be a fan in order to

better serve fans who are people that are the audience for this show. I think that being able to tap into that and understand what that feels like makes me better at this job. And I think that's part of why I've done it. But the other side of it is, it feels really fucking good to care that much. It feels really, really good to be sitting there last night and beyond pins and needles and then when it goes your way and just being in a room and a building full of people who just lost their minds when they won that game. To be in this city when the bears are relevant, when the bears are good, there's nothing like it. There is nothing like this place to me

when the bears are good. And so to be out in the world and get to watch it in that scenario because it was a Saturday game and I never get to do that anymore, it made me feel romantic about football. And that place is about two seconds from my house and so I drove home after the game ended

and was sitting on the couch with my wife and I rewatched the play, I don't know, 100 times, just sitting there rewatching it over and over again and listening to the call. And one of the other reasons that I feel like I've held on to this is just my history with the team and going to games with my dad and sitting there on the couch last night and looking at my wife and saying, I wish my dad could see this and experience what this is like.

That's why I do it. That's why I give a shit the way that I do. That's why it has been incredibly important to hang on to it with everything that I have. And so to have moments last night, that makes all the bullshit worth it. They don't have to win the Super Bowl for it to be worth it. To have moments like last night, to feel it in that moment like we got to last night, that's what it's all about. And if you don't feel romantic about football as a Bears fan after that game

and after what this season has been like and just kind of feeling what it seems like they're putting together here, I think you're probably pretty dead inside. I'll give you some grace if you're a Packer fan. I get why that might not make you feel romantic about football. But that game, I don't know, that game in particular just, did something for me. Like the, I mean, it was a 99% chance that the Packers win that game.

And then on top of the plays that you get, that's what you do it for. And yeah, hopefully you'll see your team win a championship in your lifetime if you're lucky. But yeah, it shouldn't be some zero-sum game where that's the only thing that can matter. Like, you do it for a shot at a moment like that. And fortunately for me, I've seen teams I care about win championships.

And that is great. some of my all-time favorite memories are just losing my shit in a sports bar or at the stadium over a pretty run-of-the-mill moment, you know? And it's just like that connection is what matters more so than like the end result. The end result is incredible, but one of my favorite moments in the scope or the arc of any team that you love is that moment where you feel real hope for the first time, where it just seems like, okay, there's something happening here. like in 2015 with the Cups

when it just seemed like okay whatever the end result and where we want to get to hopefully that happens but you can feel something happening and even like in 2018 it just felt faker than this

it was all defense driven it just seemed like there wasn't a sustainability to it in the way it seems like there might be here and again they still have a long way to go in terms of being a complete team capable of that but that little spark that little spark that little spark is such a beautiful moment

and it really does feel like that spark is happening. And I just felt that for like for Caleb as an individual. Like for a quarterback that who obviously like golden prospect, everybody thinks he's incredible, has a rookie season that does not go his way. And I think people are very quick to these golden, you know, quarterback prospects to jump on them and be like, why aren't you so good?

Why aren't you good? And I think we saw that obviously his rookie year. We saw that sometimes early this year. And so for him to make the throw, in the moment that you drafted him for against the Packers, this late in the season was just like that for him to have, not that he necessarily needs to be redeemed, he's incredibly talented,

all that stuff, but for him to have that moment where it felt like it was all coalescing for him as an individual. It's like that is also incredibly cool to me. Thank you for sparking my memory, Derek. I was up until two on Saturday night, just buzzing. I slept like dog shit last night. I mean, just terrible.

You daydreamed about Saturday night the moment you realized you could draft Caleb Williams. And I'll say it again. Like obviously the goal is to win the Super Bowl and I know. And we can hold people to those standards and I get that. But that's such an unfun way to look at it for me. Like you hoped for a moment like that where the quarterback can make a play to lift you to the playoffs and look like that doing it. light an entire city and an entire market on fire. Like that is why you had trouble sleeping the night before that draft is for a moment like that.

Whatever happens when he gets to the playoffs, who the hell knows. But that was it. And it was cool. I'm jealous of Bears fans for having a moment like that. And I've had moments like that in my life, but that was special. All right. Speaking of the patience that we probably should have shown, Caleb, Williams and some of the lessons we can learn from young quarterbacks.

Let's talk about what we learned in week 16. I think I've learned something today. Derek, take it away, buddy. What did you learn in week 16 in the NFL? I think this week was just a lesson in like we, these flashy new offenses when teams hired the Ben Johnsons and Liam Cohen's, and that's who I'm going to talk about specifically. I think when they are especially paired with young quarterbacks,

ones who have been, again, Caleb Williams coming off the way his rookie year went, Trevor Lawrence coming off of the way that most of the first four years of his career went, I think there is this assumption and this need that like it has to be fixed immediately and it has to look right or this just isn't what we want it to be. Think back to week eight of this season. The Bears had just played the Ravens and only scored 16 points. They could not run the ball by this point in the season. Caleb Williams made a couple of nice throws but was incredibly scattershot and frustrating in a way that he has been for a lot.

of the first like 18 games of his career. And the Jaguars were on there by that week, but the week before had gotten bludgeoned by the Rams and only scored seven points. And I think for both of them, it was like, okay, maybe you see one or two flashes, but like this is not what we paid for when we thought that we were hiring these coaches. And so to think back on like, I don't think you really could have reasonably convinced anyone at those moments that the Bears and the Jaguars could or would be like top eight, 10 offenses deeper in the season, being able to take games off the Packers, being able to

really take it to a defense like the Denver Broncos. I think it's just a reminder that sometimes these young quarterbacks and these genius offensive play callers, there's a little bit of like a coming together period. And we just, we have to live with that and sit with that for a couple months. Yeah. It's, it was so, I'm sure it was maddening to people that like it's year five for Trevor Lawrence. Like if the bell is not going to, if the light's not going to come on. now, when is it going to come on? And then now you see what he's doing. And it's like,

25 years old is not old quarterback. Like these guys do get so much better with more time. And so it's really, really difficult because just the nature of being, of engaging with them and like the expectations for them are higher than they've ever been with these guys coming in because they are saviors, right? That's what they are. And so the fan bases themselves, but I think everyone else when their build is these saviors, we want the results right away. And, then you combine that with the financial element of it and why it's so important to get everything you can out of those first four to five years. And if you're not getting it immediately, what do you make of it? But in reality, like, these guys aren't fully formed products until they're 26, 27, probably

at this point. And so trying to remember that and trying to remind ourselves of that as often as possible where it's like, this tough takes time over the course of many seasons and any given season. That's hard. I'm guilty of it all the time. but I think this year specifically has been a very good reminder of it. It's a mostly losing battle. Yes, and that's okay. It leads to some interesting conversations, but we're going to say a lot of dumb shit, and that is never going to change.

Speaking of, we'll be back for the Hangover tomorrow. We're going to hit Bill's Browns and Texans Raiders. Got a slightly different schedule this week, but still got a lot of shows coming your guys away, lay some of that out tomorrow for you. But for now, that is all we've got from weeks. 16. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.