The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 4 Hangover: The Texans get their first win, the Lions survive the Browns defense, and the Bills stay undefeated

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

If ever there were a game that felt like a hangover, it was the Texans 26-0 win over the Titans in Week 4. That's where Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen kick off this episode of The Athletic Football Show. After that, the guys dive into another impressive performance by the Browns defense, albeit in a 34-10 loss to the Lions, and the Bills 31-19 win over the Saints. Robert and Derrik wrap up the episode by discussing all the injuries affecting the Ravens, and taking a couple of your sad voicemails.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)4:45 Titans-Texans recap18:25 Browns-Lions recap33:53 Saints-Bills recap45:51 Injuries piling up for the Ravens50:40 Monday Mourning with the Colts and VikingsConnect with The Athletic Football ShowX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's the week four hangover today. On this show, do it every week. Me and Derek Classen just hit a few games that we were not able to hit on the recap show from Sunday night. Three games today. Titans, Texans, with a kind of a bounce-back day for the Texans offense in some ways. We dug into whether or not there should be some optimism around some of the things that they did on that side of the ball.

We talked a little bit about why the Titans' offense has just really failed to get off the ground so far. year. Also hit Lions Browns. Another big win for the Lions. A really good performance again, I think down to down by the Browns defense. But at a certain point, like, you're not going to be able to overcome turnover, short fields, which they had to deal with again in Detroit on Sunday. And we also chatted about the Bill's Saints game, which was much more competitive than I think anybody believed going into that one before hitting a couple of your guys' sad voicemails from Monday morning. So let's get to that conversation with me and Derek Klass. listen right now. It's the week four hangover, three games that we're going to hit from the Sunday

slate today that we could not get to on the week four recap show. We're going to talk a little Texans Titans, talk a little Browns Lions, and then finish things off with a little Bill's Saints. I feel like the Saints are going to be a common participant in the Monday Hangover show this year. I'm so glad you said that because as we were gearing up for the show and like, you know, I have the like, I usually spend the last like 30 minutes before the show, like just collecting my notes and stuff and being like, man, we've done the Saints already a few times. And I feel like they're definitely going to have been here a number of times because usually, you know, for Sunday, they just, you know, they don't scratch that box. Listen, they've been a lot more competent in

stretches that I think we anticipated them being. The Bill Saints game was much closer than I think a lot of people thought it was going to be considering the line. It was more fun to go rewatch than I expect. I think there were some interesting things that the Saints did. So we'll dig into all of that. But for the most part, the games we talk about on Sunday night have real stakes when it comes to how the NFL season is going to unfold and the Saints just aren't going to play many of those games this year. I think Saints fans knew that going into the year. They had the lowest over under in the entire season of any team and the Browns were right there in the conversation. So I assume they'll be fixtures on this show. So if you were a Browns or a Saints fan, congratulations. You're going to have

a weekly podcast on the Athletic Football Show. Let's kick things off with the game I really did want to talk about the most. And that is the Texans taking care of business against the Tennessee Titans. They get back on track a little bit after what has been. I'm pretty troubling a start to the season. What did you see from the Texans yesterday that might give you a little bit of hope moving forward about why this could be different? Was there anything? Was there anything you saw from the offense in particular? There was like, okay, maybe they're finding something they could hopefully tap into a little bit.

I honestly did not come away very enthused with the way that this game went. I mean, they didn't score any of their touchdowns until the fourth quarter. Again, and I like, I like this Titans defense. You should be able to score against this Titans defense a little bit. earlier than that. And I know that they've had some of their issues, but I came away more concerned with one, the way that the passing game was operating to me was very frustrating. They, so CJ Stroud in this game, 17.9 of his throws, a percent of his throws went two or beyond the sticks. That was the lowest mark in the NFL this week. It was the fourth lowest if you just consider early

downs because I know part of that is they ended up in a bunch of weird like third and longs because of penalties and stuff. And so of course, you're throwing short of the sticks. But even on early downs, they ended up in a lot of those spots. And he had a 2.4-1 time to throw, which was the third fastest this week. I think only like Aaron Rogers and obviously Aaron Rogers, but I forget who the other one was. But he was just the ball was coming out really quickly. He was throwing a lot of shallow routes. He was very scared to hold onto the ball.

And I think that that's something that we've talked about being a frustrating part of this offense. And so that concerned me. And then outside of one or two plays that they hit on the run game in the perimeter that I thought were blocked up well, they for the most part could not move people off the ball. that's been an issue for them all year, and this is a tough defensive line, but it was like pretty jarring how bad it looked for a lot of the game. I will say this. Here's in my opinion the rosy outlook for what this game was from the Texans. It feels like they're trying to fix the problems that they're having to deal with right now. And at least on that front, I can get behind some of the things that

they were trotting out, even if it was imperfect. The past protection has been a disaster for the entire season. So what is a reasonable thing to try to go to? Let's get the ball out of our hands, right? We can't hang out as quickly as we can. Let's not take a negative place. And so I think that is driving some of him getting rid of the ball very, very quickly. One of the first things I put in my notes is that he's getting rid of the ball fast in this game and I noted the time to throw the same way that you did. That inherently limits what your passing game can look like. And I think too often he's trying to get rid of the ball a little bit too quickly. But when you have this level of pass protection issues, I can understand trying to do that a little bit more.

The other part of this that I did like to see is them trying to at least tweak elements of the run game and just how they were using their personnel overall. So in this game, they had three plays with two backs on the field. After using a ton of 21 full-back stuff over the first three weeks of the season, it was going absolutely nowhere. And if you look at the Woody Marks Carey specifically, it does feel like they're trying to add a little bit more space to the run game.

and I think that there's some horizontal stretch they're trying to create with motion in the run game and they're getting away from these condensed heavy personnel sets where they absolutely could not run the ball over the first three weeks of the season. That may be a little bit of rationalization, but I do see them trying to iterate here as they're trying to find solutions

to what has been ailing them over the first few weeks of the year. I mean, I do think that's fair. Them trying a little bit more on the perimeter run game and like using a little bit more of Woody Marks, who does give them a little bit more pop, a little bit more play in space than any of the other running backs on the roster. So I do credit them for trying. I just wasn't that impressed.

Even on some of the plays that works, like the third and four where they run the pinpole to the left side, if Cody Barton is just a good athlete, like that play is dead because he makes the right read on it and he fires into the backfield, kind of gets past the offensive lineman, but doesn't quite have the juice to make it work. That to me is like a good linebacker cord just makes that play.

And so, you know, I guess you're not going to play a good linebacker. core every week, so maybe that's unfair. But I just like, even the best play is still a little bit felt to me like, ah, they're kind of getting away with it. And I just didn't come away too, too impressed with a whole lot of it. My issue is anytime they're trying to run the ball into crowded spaces, the offensive line just never, ever, ever gets to the second level. They don't even like put a hand on a linebacker at any point when they're not trying to do some funky stuff in the run game. One of the better runs they had in the entire game. They had a second and nine, they had a second and

eight run from the gun went for nine yards in the third quarter. And they actually had a full block where they had Andrews come up onto the second level. It's like that's the type of stuff they need to do. If they're not doing anything where, like there's no combination that's reaching the linebackers from this running game right now. And so I think trying to spread things out a little bit more and trying to use that space to your advantage, at least it's an idea, even if I think there still are going to be limitations because this just isn't a very good group up front.

Yeah. And I agree. Like, that to me is just I wonder how much of that can they build on over the course of the season, which it is nice that they've already started to try some of that. Because I think previous iterations, you know, over the last couple of years, they never even really tried to fix a lot of their issues. So at least they are a little bit more forward thinking earlier in the season than I think past coaching staffs have been. But this is definitely this offensive line in this run game is that you got to really prove it to me for a little bit before I start to get excited. Anytime they're trying to cut something off on the backside, it's complete non-starter. It doesn't matter if Scruggs is in there.

it doesn't matter if Tomlinson's in there, there's just no way they're doing any of that. The play where I still don't know what happened on that Jeffrey Simmons, like, sack in two seconds. The fact that the right guard blocks the right tackle on that play, and then you have four guys blocking James Lynch on that play, even if there's mild progress from the offense,

there are still a couple plays over the course of the game that made me want to tear my hair out. That was one of them. And then they took another sack on the exact same stunt where the linebacker picks the left tackle and then the defensive end loops inside that they've gotten destroyed on like five other times over the course of this season. And so even with a little bit of just some positives to try to build on, there's still going to be three or four moments from this team that drive me absolutely

crazy every single week seemingly on offense. Yeah, I think it's going to be a weekly occurrence. It's basically, it's still the CJ Stroud can you make two plays? And Nico Collins can you do something show? Yeah, they had a 37-yard completion on. second and 33. That was like their biggest play of the game. I will say.

So with that quickly, I was rewatching that on the YouTube TV, like 30, you know, the 30 minute replay or whatever. And when I, sometimes when I see second and 33, I just skip it. I'm like,

this is usually. This drives over. And then I see that they still have the ball. I'm like, wait a minute. I have to go back. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, the fact that they converted to second and 33, but then I will say,

seriously, I did like them going for as many four downs as they did in this game. Because when your offense is struggling, you cannot afford to literally and figuratively punt on possessions. And so for them to get, I think, three fourth and ones over the course of this game, including two of them in their own territory, I do think that is the right mindset. And so we'll see if they can continue to build on this. But I think more marks because he gives you more juice and the fact that I think he's just

a better player if you're going to try to create more space in that running game and them using as much just eye candy, motions, you know, polars, things like that, just more dynamism to the run game rather than just lining up in 21 personnel and heavy personnel and running duo down people's throats when you don't have the personnel to do that. I did like to see them just trying to make a little bit of progress in those areas. Let's get to the other side of the ball. Where are you at with the Tennessee Titans offense right now? Like when you watch this group, which down to down has been the worst in the NFL to this point,

and you watch them on Sunday, what do you think is the main thing that currently plagues them? I don't think any of the past catchers are playing well and can get open consistently, except for like I.O. Manor at times actually looks okay. Weirdly enough, who is not who I thought was going to be their most reliable receiver this year. And then the offensive line, I think part of it is they do not seem as put together as I think that we thought a Callahan unit would look. But then also you add that on top of the injuries, especially on the right side of the offensive line that they've been dealing with for a lot of this season. And I think they're now getting to a point where they're starting to feel how hard it is and like they don't really

believe that they can put together plays. And I think in that sense, we're starting to see some of the worst of Cam Ward or we're continuing to see some of the worst of the Cam Ward in the sense that he's very willing to hold onto the ball, probably try to make a couple too many plays. Like the interception he throws where he's kind of rolling out to his right side. And I think he's trying to find, I think it's Io Manor like sitting a little bit in a zone later in the play. He like sidearm whips it, like, tries to get it into this weird angle. And it's like, we're, I get that you're down to scores and that you guys haven't done anything all day.

But like, we're trying a little bit too hard to make some of this stuff happen. And so I think it's already herky jerky in terms of like how good the personnel is and how consistently they can string to us together. And then Cam Ward, even though I think he's doing some good stuff is struggling a little bit with that. And then also in this game specifically was just not accurate. Like, I think he's generally been accurate this season. But this game, he just was not putting, you know, passes the way that he needed to.

A couple of erratic misses. He had a throw in the flat to Chickacanco on a second down on the second quarter that he just sails for unknown reasons. And then he had a quick comeback to lock it. It was a third and six in the second quarter on the outside. And he just sails that. And so erratic accuracy, protection issues again. He was pressured on 46.7% of his dropbacks. He finished three of 10 on those plays.

And then the offense, I still think continues to run into some issues. And this is where one of those things where you change out the play caller. And it's like, oh, we'd change the play caller. That doesn't really do much. And I think the situational play calling in this game, you had a couple important botched plays. They botch a flea flicker at some point in the game. And then they tried to have a throwback to Cam a little bit later in this game

following a 21-yard run. Here, this to me is exactly where we're at with the Titans' offense right now. That sequence with the botched throwback, that goes for negative four. They try to have a throwback back to Cam Ward. It's completely snuffed out by Daniel Hunter. And then Ward gets, I think it was DK, gets dumped like four-year-old. guards behind the line of scrimmage. On the next play is the one where he sails it to Chigua in the flat. And then on third down, Hunter comes through in like a simple stunt with the left guard and the

left tackle and it's a sack. That's it. That's the drive. And so there are just, it's not one thing. It's too many things that I think are compounding to make this offense feel the way that it does right now. Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it because first play is like, okay, we're trying to do something and it doesn't work. And a lot of there like we're trying to do something plays like some of their schemed up stuff just has not worked. And so that's how you run into and get behind the sticks. And then when you're behind the sticks, you have no margin for error. So your quarterback makes one bad throw, which for a lot of this season, he hasn't made like missed throws. And then he just did in this instance. So now you're in third and 14. And then like you said on that stunt, Skoronski just

comes around, puts him into the ground immediately. And you have two guys for you hitting the quarterback. Like that was just, that is exactly the way to put it. Like all three of the issues that you have with the offense, literally one after another happened there. it's just not the offense I anticipated watching when it comes to the personnel and the quality of the personnel at front. Like I know that they've been banged up, but I think what you said about this, just not feeling as buttoned up as we expected from Bill Callahan. Really over the last two years, last year, I think you can explain it away a little bit because you had a young group, you know, you had guys playing out of position. It's like, okay, you know, it's year one of a new system. Give them a little bit of grace.

We'll see what happens in year two. And the fact that we really haven't gotten the type of play you'd expect from any individual piece on that line, you can. combine it with the injuries that they've been dealing with. And what I thought was going to be the foundation of this whole thing just hasn't been able to provide that. And I think that with nothing to stand on, you've just felt how shaky every other element of the offense is. That was always going to be the case.

You have a rookie quarterback. You have a ton of young pass catchers. The line is the reason that I was fairly optimistic about this group. And I thought that they could actually be okay. I thought we could see a level of competency from them early on offense. And the fact that you can't even stand on that, I think is really. really contributed. It's just how completely unsettled every other thing about this group feels right now. Exactly. And like, because the thing with Cam Ward is like some quarterbacks in the

pocket, I think just hold onto the ball too long because they don't know what they're doing. And then I think you have some guys who hold on to the ball too long because maybe if they get immediate pressure instead of, okay, I'm going to go find my checkdown or I'm going to go throw the ball away or or whatever it is. Cam Ward will then go try to be a hero. Well, with as many quick pressures as they're getting in immediate pressures, he immediately turns into that mode. And like, you just don't want to invite that much volatility. Like, if he had a little bit more help in like a T. Higgins, he could just chuck the ball up to and like make that a little bit easier. But the Titans very obviously don't have that kind of player right now. No, they don't. I mean,

they try to make Iyo Manor that player. The amount of contested throws, he's tried to put up to the sideline to him. Like, that's really one of the only things they can tap into on offense. And I appreciate the aggressiveness. But that's just not going to be a consistent source of anything. And again, I think that just feels leads to how erratic this group feels right now because that's exactly the word that I would use. It just feels so inconsistent and erratic throughout the entire offense. I think that starts up front and really trickles down to everything else. Let's get to our next game here. The Lions beat up on the Browns 34 to 10. Yet again, the Brown's defense plays pretty well, all things considered. The Lions have like a 35%

success rate in this game. They average 4.9 yards per play. And it did not matter because the Browns turned the ball over multiple times on offense and just struggle to get anything going over the course of this game. When you went back and watched, what was your number one takeaway about Browns Lions? Okay, I have two takeaways. First of all, Miles Garrett is a freak show, man. Like, I know we do this every time we talk about the Browns, but he is truly incredible. Like, they were just so many different plays in this game. Like, to me, the one where you just really saw like what he can do as just running through people was there.

Where's the second and 12 where Jared Goff is trying to slide up a little bit into the pocket and make this deep throw down the field to Jameson Williams, Miles Garrett is lined up over the left tackle. He gets chipped. And after getting chipped, just like runs straight through the left tackle. One arm bull rushes him straight into Jared Goff. It disrupts Goff. And he's not able to make the throw. And he just did stuff like that all day. And he's just, when I watch him, like he is kind of a one-man show in terms of what he's able to do. So you have that. And then this is actually kind of related This throw I'll give Jared Gough a little bit of grace for because obviously you get hit by Miles Garrett.

It's kind of amazing to me that Jared Gough is as successful as he is while being like the worst deep thrower in the league. Like this was a reminder that he's beyond 20 yards not very good, but he's so good at everything else that they can still generally put together. How many other examples were that of, were there of that in this game? He had like three. He had like three others and he threw the pick because he under throws a deep route by like 15 yards.

Oh, that's, I don't think that's an underthrow. I think that's misreading the comment. I think that's just a complete misread on this situation. I think he's trying to lay that ball out into space and just does not account at all for Denzo Ward being there. I think he gets a guy in his face and can't make the throw. Oh, I don't, I think that ball is, that to me is a bad decision based on what you think the coverage is going to be.

I think he believes that as man and he has the crosser coming open into open space and the Browns are in an inverted cover two look and Denzo Ward is sitting there underneath the throw. I don't think that's a throw issue. I think that's a I got fooled by the coverage issue. I don't know. I feel like he gets defensive tackle in his face and he can't put the ball up and over. But like he's a bad deep ball passer anyway.

Like he has been one of the worst. Even in Detroit, he's not been very good at it. And he doesn't do it a whole lot. Yeah. The only good deep throw he has this year is the Jameson Williams won against the bears. We're like wide ass open. Even that's not like a deep ball down the sideline. And even in this game, the one that Jameson Williams, I'm not going to say he'd

dropped it, the one that James and Williams can't hang on to down the left side one. It's over his left shoulder, not the shoulder he thought it was going to be on. And so that's why he struggled to catch it. But I don't know. I don't watch Jared Gough and think like, oh, man, I wish he was a better deep ball thrower. I think that maybe every once in a while, those limitations crop up. But I don't, it's not like at front of mind for me when I watch him or the Lions play. I'm more just like, it's kind of fascinating that he can be as productive as he is and he's

never been able to throw down the field effectively. Like even in L.A., he wasn't very good at it. And then really at no point in Detroit has that been like an effective part of their offense. He's just like the best 10 to 20 yard thrower in the NFL. And so you kind of get away with not having to throw beyond 20. Yeah. My favorite play of his in this entire game, I think as a passer, is probably the bender he had to LaPorte it to set the field goal for 20 to 17.

Right over like Devin Bush. Yeah, right over Devin Bush coming over the right side. I mean, those are his best moments as a quarterback. Or there's like those in breaking ripped throws that we see from him, which I think has been true for a little while. I will say that the play he had on the first. drive where he extends stepping up in the pocket and finds Amon Ross St. Brown on that corner route, that's a little bit of sauce that we very rarely see from Jared Gough in an NFL game.

And so I enjoyed that. My biggest takeaway about the Lions offense in this game, though, just continues to be the moments we see from the running game. The stats down to down are not going to be great when you play against this Brown's defense just because they are absolutely halacious against the run right now. So the Browns over there, the Lions over the course of the game had a 37% rushing success right, they average 3.8 yards per carry. But there are still things that they did in the running game that very few teams can do to

the Browns. And it's just a couple different moments that crop up. But I thought that on the playword Delpit trips, Jemir Gibbs, there's unbelievable job by Taylor Decker on the backside of that run. On the backside of the Gibbs touchdown run, the job that Mahogany does reaching the nose comes, the nose is on the backside of that run. And he on multiple plays over the course of the season, they had a, one against the Ravens too, where all three of the guys in the backside just completely got their

hips turned. Mahogany is so good in those moments. He's such an explosive athlete that his ability to get his hip turn on the backside of those runs is incredible. And then along with that, on that Gibbs touchdown run, the job that Brock Wright-Lanporta do on the front side of that run, like they even in a game against the Browns that are really, really, really hard to play against on the ground right now, there are still four or five highlight plays from the D.D.C. Detroit Lions run game. This is the first year where Leporta has at least like had good moments as a blocker. I think he's always been a fantastic.

At the point of attack. Yes, exactly. Yeah, he's like he's always been a good like slice guy like moving space type of type of blocker. But like actually like right off the line of scrimmage helping out, he's been a little bit better this year, which I think has helped them a lot. When we knew the offensive line adding to so many new pieces might be a little bit more up and down. It's funny. You mentioned the stats weren't that good. Like, you know, only 37% success rate under four yards of carry.

that's still like twice as good as like everyone else that has played the Browns this year which is like the point right and so still like a below average day generally but way better than almost any other team has been so you still give up a couple of plays in the backfield because again that is what this Browns front does

but the fact that they were able to hit on a couple of plays I think speaks to how good like you know we gave this the lines a lot of institutional confidence because of like you know offensive line coach is still there and they've still got obviously Pena Sewell and it is really starting to come together, basically after just one rough week against the Packers, who are mostly a good defense.

I really enjoyed some of the things they tried to trot out, just trying to account for what this Brown's front plays like. They had a couple nice moments where a couple gun runs that I actually thought were some pretty cool designs. They had a chunk gain on a gun run where they had Decker fold back onto the backside linebacker that I think went for 25 yards at one point. And then my favorite design of the entire game was late in the third quarter. They were in like a split back look with one of the tight end in the backfield to the right of golf and then Gibbs was to the left of him and they ran like a pin pole with a tight end pinning the defensive end cutting him from the split back look and that turned into a chunk run and so even in a game

where your traditional runs are going to be tough even the brown's defense erases things that should work against the brown's defense like the browns get so much penetration and so against these time of four down attack fronts, these crunch plays where you're having multiple guys getting trapped at the same time have been really, really popular against these types of teams over the last three or four years. You go back and you watch how many teams try to do it to the Texans to the Bills. You can't even do that to the Browns because the penetration is happening so fast that if you leave those guys unblocked for a single second, you're going to run into trouble. Like that is how just problematic it is to deal with the Browns front right now.

Some of that is Miles Garrett, but the guy that just jumped off the screen to me again in this game, Malik Collins is just playing with his hair on fire. Like he is just this really significant problem in pretty much any time a team wants to run the ball with him on the field right now. He looks as explosive as ever, dude. I don't know what it is. I mean, he's always kind of been that kind of player, right?

But him especially next to Mason Graham, especially next to the way that Miles Garrett is playing, Like you said, you can try to trap these guys and stuff, but one, they are coached very well. Like even though they are generally a very attacking front, they don't end up in the wrong spot a lot of the time. Like they still do like know when they're getting trapped. They can feel that sort of stuff. And I think they do a good job of reacting.

And so I think you couple that on top of the linebacker play behind them, even when they need to clean stuff up, I think has been good. I talked about Carson Swessinger on a previous show. But even Devin Bush has not been as bad as I thought he would be at the stage. And then I think their safeties actually generally do a good job. I think Delpit is for the most part playing really, really well this year. So they're playing this attacking front. And if you're going to do that, you've got to have guys who can clean up.

Like this is honestly the issue. This is the difference between them and like the bills, right? The bills can kind of play this way and have before. But the guys behind them cleaning it up. They've had linebacker injuries over the past couple of years. And then the safeties just haven't been able to do that consistently. We'll talk about that when we get to that game, by the way. But I think the guys behind the Browns front have just been playing better and really helping them out.

On the other side of the ball, I think we're getting to a point where the Joe Flacco thing might be running its course. And Kevin Sifansky was kind of noncommittal about it today when he was asked about who was going to play quarterback. And I get not wanting to feed the young guys to this team's early season schedule. They played the Packers defense, which I still think is pretty good despite what happened last night. They played the Lions who are a very good football team. They played the Ravens. They had a lot of good teams that they were having to play against here over the first month of the season. and I understand not wanting to trot a rookie quarterback out for that,

and now you're about to play against the Vikings this week. So maybe when you're trying to travel internationally. So this might be another week where you trot Flacco out there, but when you look at some of the decisions he's making, the rate at which they're turning the ball over, the spot that it was putting the defense in in this game, I just don't understand what the benefits of playing him for much longer are going to be. Like, if he's not going to be a steadying force for the offense,

and you're not worried about really negative experiences impacting your young quarterbacks against really good defenses. We're running out of reasons why Joe Flacco should be the Brown starting quarterback beyond this week against the Vikings. Yeah, my biggest issue with the way that the way that the passing offense looks right now is like you still get like three or four insane throws because he's still a very, he still has a very talented arm. But it just feels like he's taking a lot of shortcuts.

Like anytime he got one-on-one, he was just throwing to Judy almost no matter what. And I get that he's their best receiver, but these lines guys are also pretty good corners. And so I think that was a little bit up and down. I think there are just times where he's rushing to the checkdown when he doesn't need to because I think he doesn't want to get hit at this stage, especially, to be fair, the offensive line has not been very good. And so he's getting him probably more than he would like against Aiden Hutchinson, right? And like we have any, I swear to God, anytime Aden Hutchinson gets a backup offensive line.

It's just an absolute bloodbath. And so you got some of that in this game. And so I think we're just getting to a point where they're not really. operating the offense the way that you wanted. And that was the point of Joe Flacka, right? Is that he was going to operate the offense and make it feel like an adult thing. And I just don't feel like we're getting as much of that now. And again, you're probably not going to with Gabriel either, right?

Like he's a rookie. There's going to be bumps and bruises and stuff. But I feel like after the Flores experience overseas, you probably want to start thinking about what can we do next. Yeah. And I think that was probably always the plan to an extent, right? Like, let's make sure we have the veteran out there against these really good defenses early in the season.

And then when we get to week six or so after that Vikings game, let's see what we have in some of the young guys. Because at a certain point, that's more important than whatever Joe Flacco is going to be giving us. I think some of that was maybe going to be dictated by what the record was and by how felt well things were going and things just aren't going very well offensively right now. Anything on the offense that you feel like was a good takeaway? Anything where you're watching like, okay, I can get behind this even if overall

the product looks pretty bad right now. First of all, did not expect Isaiah Bond to make the catch that he made. That is just not the type of player that I thought he was. I thought he was more of a speed guy. So I thought that that was interesting. And then I think one thing, this is good and bad, but I think kind of explains the whole Harold Fanon, like what he is and what they're working through. There's one play where he, I think it's right out of the half, catches a crosser with Brian Branch like draped over his back. It's an awesome play.

And then immediately after that, they try to like have him pull and be the lead blocker on, I think like a counterplay. and he just gets smoked by Derek Barnes. And it's like, that's just a little bit of like the give and take with a player like him. But I'm generally really impressed by what he's been able to do. And so this was just another game where it's not like he's putting up insane volume or insane stats or anything,

but at least some of their young players are starting to look okay. Yeah, you mean, you're seeing that from a lot of guys. I think Judkins looks like, Judkins has his moments pretty much every single game. And so that rookie class overall, I think,

is giving them the sorts of contributions that they were looking for. Obviously, this team trades for Cam Robinson this morning, which that's how. you know your desperate a tackle. And that was always going to be the case after losing Duan Jones for the year. Jack Conklin is banged up. And so that's something that they're going to have to continue to work through.

But I don't think that necessarily explains away all the issues that they're having, both in past protection and on the ground right now. I think that there are some other underlying problems that this team is dealing with at this point. All right, we're going to take a quick break. And then we're going to come back with Bill Saints. I think we can start this with just how much the production from the Saints offense kept them in this game in a surprising way. The Saints rush for 189 yards in this game,

average 5.6 yards a carry. They had a 45% rushing success rate. And, I mean, they were right in this thing. Like, a couple of plays go another way. And this game ends up becoming much closer than the final score would lead you to believe. And I think some frustrating moments from the Bill's defense are probably what drove a lot of that.

It was a very frustrating week for this defense. Like, I think the point where I realized that this was like a really annoying game for the bills was Caesar Ruiz ended up out in space to the left side and like completely knocked somebody out of the play and I was like if Caesar Ruiz is kicking your ass like with him being you know

he's been he's had some times as a player but I think right now he's probably their weakest link on the offensive line. When he is beating you down, that's like okay we got to start raising some questions about how the defense is playing and then to me the one that was really frustrating early on I want to say it was Camara's first touchdown

like really early on he gets to the second. level and rap has a clear angle to go and get him. And if he just like keeps driving, takes a better angle, he can cut Camara off, hit him in the hips and bring him down at like the 11-yard line. He takes a bad angle. He ends up two steps behind it and just falls. And Camara just slips right by him for the touchdown. And it's like that is the type of, that that was all of what was happening in week one against like Derek Henry. And that's just consistently been an issue for this Saints or for this Bill's safety room for three years now, four years. Like it's been a very long

time that this exact issue has been around in that team. I think you combine that with some of the issues on the second level in this game as well. I mean, there are a ton of examples that you could throw out there. Terran Johnson had a tough first drive for that, that first Saints touchdown drive. On the play action completion of Juan Johnson, he gets sucked in because he's in the run fit. He misses a tackle on Kendry Miller in the hole in the Kendry Miller touchdown.

And then there were a lot of just really good instances and examples of the Saints using just misdirection in the running game. and using that to cause problems. They had multiple different plays where they ran like a GT counteraction with the back coming the other way and like having Spencer Rattler carry out the fake and the linebackers just spinning. They had two chunk plays off of that game. And then the play you're talking about was late in the second quarter and it's Terrell

Bernard who gets absolutely launched by Caesar Ruiz on that play. And so there were four or five, six examples in this game of the Saints, both in terms of schematics and in terms of just physicality being the better team when they decided to run the ball. And, you know, they win the game, right? We'll never think about this again if this stuff gets cleaned up. But these are the types of things when you want to win a Super Bowl, like where are the cracks in the foundation? And right now, through three, through four weeks, the bills are dead lasts and expected yards per carry allowed in the NFL. And they have been a decidedly below average run defense all year. The tackling that you're talking about, the bills have allowed

19 runs of five plus rushing yards over expected. So what is, what should you be getting based on the space created? And this, you know, all this stuff is very noisy. There's a lot of, it's all player tracking stuff. But in terms of the body positioning the defenders, what you should, what should you be getting on these individual plays? No team has allowed more runs where the back has gotten five more yards than the expectation based on the spacing than the Buffalo Bills, which when you watch them,

that absolutely tracks. Like, it's not a surprising stat to hear. And you know what? I would have to look this part of it up because I didn't. But even against like scrambles, they've been really bad. And they were in this game. I mean, think about what some of Lamar was doing. I mean, Lamar can do that to anybody.

But it was particularly bad in that game. And then even in this game, Spencer Rattler had a number of scrambles in this game, especially earlier on, which I did want to talk about that. Spencer Rattler, by the way, has scrambled 11 times this year. 10 successful runs in nine first downs. He's actually been a really, really effective scramble. He's third and overall total EPA generated on scrambles. I think it's like Baker, Mayfield, and Josh Allen above him.

So he's been really, really effective in that sense. And so like there was one where, you know, talking about the second level tackling, he shook Dorian Williams out of his shoes for a first down. Like I think like four or five yards past the line of scrimmage and then was able to get it. So just the tackling in every way, whether it's just design stuff where you're taking angles, you know you're supposed to take to the alley in the run game or out in space on like these scrambles. They just are not getting guys. down the way that they should be.

Bill's offense, a somewhat frustrating game, but I don't think any, like, cause for concern and what we saw from them. They go three of ten on third down, which absolutely showed up in a big way. Josh Allen throws the pick on what is a really, really nice play by Jonas Sanker, who had a PBU on the previous play. Like, that two-play stretch from him was absolutely excellent. Allen gets not necessarily fool, but they had a couple simulated pressures where they bait him into kind of turning down a throw.

he takes a sack on one of those. And so I just feel like there were some a little bit of inconsistency from the offense, but nothing overly troubling. I think a lot of it was the defense, you know, kind of getting picked on a little bit in the run game as to why the Saints were able to keep this thing a little bit closer than it should have been. I agree with that. Like the Saints ran a vary between the way that the run game was operating.

And then I think Rattler did a decent job of like keeping them on schedule in the passing game. They missed on a couple of plays down the field. Like he probably should have hit Brandon Cook's on that like seam bender that. he tries to fit in there, like right in front of the goal line. He probably should hit that. And he almost did like Cook's got hands on it. But so they missed their explosive play opportunities, which I think have been the issue for the Saints offense. But like the down to down at times has actually been pretty good and certainly was in this game.

And so I would say the last thing I would say for the Bill's offense that I do find continuing to be interesting. I know everyone has already done the Jackson Hawes thing. But like his snap count continues to increase. And he was like really, really good in this game. And they're clearly more comfortable with him as a rest. because I think we knew that coming, you know, after like week one, a little bit of week two, it's like, okay, when they go into 12, you know, they would rather do that now and put him on the field than go into some of their six offensive line and stuff, which I think does let you be

a more normal offense, which is good for them. But as a receiver, they're a little bit more comfortable getting him involved. So I'm, I'm, like, optimistic to see how this thing goes with, with this personnel. I think all the tight ends are contributing in a positive way right now. I think that, I mean, what they're getting from Dawson Knox as a blocker, he's still a plus blocker and I think that Kincaid has been good for like one explosive a game so far as a receiver. And so the tight ends, all of them have been contributing in a positive way for this team. When it comes down to like the margins in this game, like you can point to like three or four plays where

this absolutely could have gone south for the for the Saints or excuse me for the Bills. This one not as much, but I think it was like again, just one of those missed opportunities. After the Sanker interception, they, the Saints have a third and eight and Rattler rips it to a lave on a quick out. he just can't hang on before he goes out of bounds. And so that probably should have been a first down. But then later in the game, I mean, they're in the red zone. They're inside the five. And Olave throws a crazy pick on that end around instead of them walking away from that

with the field goal. And then there was a fourth and three that the bills that the Saints had at the 49 yard line when they were down 14 to 10 with like 13 minutes left in the second quarter. And I'm going for that. Like in this situation, against the bills in Buffalo at midfield, essentially, I'm going for that fourth and three. And so that's a moment that I think there's a little bit of a missed opportunity.

And then you mentioned it like Cooks hangs on to that touchdown. And instead of getting six points there, they kick the field goal to go up 21 to 19. And then the bills go down and score and the game is over. So this thing was, I think, a little bit. Sometimes when you watch a game where you have a two touchdown favorite and it's a game nobody even thinks about heading into the week and you watch it end close.

It's like, ah, I was, you know, a late score here, you know, a couple moments there where it actually wasn't that close. This game, I think, actually was a lot more competitive than I expected it to be even going back and rewatching it. It really was. Like, they played like fairly even games. It's just that the better team didn't have as many bad breaks. And that's obviously the bills.

And so obviously, like Josh Allen generally played a good game. But like, yeah, this was like one or two more things go right for the Saints. And they probably win this game. I am also, by the way, like, I'm getting close to like Spencer Rattler is a quality young quarterback being filled by his team territory. Like I really think that there's something to him. He can play. I mean, I thought he looked good again.

Like you watch him play it. He does not feel out of his depth. I think that's the best way to put it. Yes. That's when I watch him, he does not feel out of place. And he's somebody that, you know, based on what he was built at as a prospect, obviously you know more about this than me. Like I think that I always kind of considered him like this kind of wild.

horse as a quarterback prospect that was going to do some weird shit. And the decision making was going to kind of be all over the place and it was going to look a little bit up and down. And when you watch him now, like, there's not really any of that to his game. Like, he looks pretty calm and pretty even keel. And that to me is just a little bit surprising based on what I had come to understand of Spencer Routwer. It's been shocking even to me.

Like, I liked him as a prospect, you know, like take him, you know, super talented guy, take him in the second third round, whatever. but I did think he would be more of taking a lot of sacks, putting the ball in harm's way a lot more, that sort of quarterback. And you were just going to bet that the highs were going to be high enough. It's kind of been the opposite where, like, they're actually not hitting on that many explosives, but he's been a very efficient scrambler. He's actually not taking that many sacks, especially not until like the, you know,

fourth quarter games are almost over and he's got to make a play. And he's really not putting the ball in harm's way. Like, ball's coming out on time. It's been accurate. He's like, he's playing almost opposite quarterback of what he seemed like he was as a prospect, which to me is pretty important. impressive if he can somehow marry the old wild horse stuff because he's a very talented thrower so if he could find a little bit more of a middle ground he could really have something

just a couple notes i mean the bills missed a couple guys in this game at oliver you know hopefully will affect the run game when he gets back i actually thought the dion walker had some really nice moments like seeing him flash as a fourth round rookie i mean obviously he's incredibly talented physically there just aren't many people walking the earth that are built like him and so those moments are nice to see but still missing milano you know hopefully hopefully that will help stabilize whatever the run defense looks like when he gets back. And I thought Ryan Vandermark had some like one or two moments where he looked like a backup right tackle.

But overall, I just am consistently impressed at this team's ability to really thrive on the ground, no matter who they're trotting out along the offensive line. Like, they just have such a solid run game infrastructure at this point and have over the last couple years that even when they're having to deal with one guy in and out of the lineup, whoever it happens to be, you rarely feel it. you watch this offense play. And I think that's really a testament to Aaron Cromer and just to what they have built on that side of the ball. A hundred percent. Like that's one of those that like they have clearly they're buttoned up. Like in so even when you put in backup players, you can get away with it.

Where again, I think there was the one where like they fired Demerio Davis off the right side and he, he won. But like other than that, there just, there wasn't a whole lot. Carl, uh, Carl, Carl, Granderson also had some really nice moments in this game. He had a big time TFL on a forked down. It was essentially a turnover for the bills. And then he had a sack and where he absolutely, actually cooks Osirons Torrance while lined up over the guard, which that's not necessarily surprising. Like that, that's not Osiris' strength is dealing with like bendy guys in space like Carl Granderson. But again, you know, a couple Saints defenders having some nice moments. Like even if this team is winless, they are far from embarrassing. I think that the game

against the Seahawks kind of gets away from them. But, you know, down to down, I think that they have been a more put together operation than a lot of people might have anticipated coming into the year despite what the wins and losses are telling you right now. Last thing we wanted to hit before getting to your guys's voicemails today. The Ravens are dealing with a ton of injuries. We've gotten a little bit more clarity about those today. No update on Lamar Jackson from John Harbaugh. That's something that we'll have to keep an eye out for.

But some other tough news, nom day at Matabike, season-ending injured reserve with his neck injury, which for a defense that has been reeling, that is the last thing that you want to hear. And you combine that with Roquan Smith is now going to miss multiple weeks because of a hamstring injury. You saw what those other linebackers, the other off-ball linebackers looked like for the Ravens yesterday.

And then Marlon Humphrey, with a CAFR injury, is also out multiple weeks. And so this is really turning into like a nightmare scenario for a team that came into the season as the Super Bowl favorite, according to whatever sports book you wanted to look at for the most part. And that is to say nothing of Lamar leaving that last game.

And like, we don't know what he's going to end up looking like. Like, this is just, I think defensively, And this is the issue too. If you look at their schedule, they get Houston next week, and then they get the Rams. And I know that Houston has been what they have been. The offense is very frustrating. But if the whole issue with the Ravens team is that their defense is allowing anybody to run on them, and they can't really get after the passer.

And now they're missing maybe their best cornerback in Marlon Humphrey, even if the Texans are a very frustrating unit, this is a pretty getable defense for them. And if C.J. Stroud plays a decent game. And Nico Collins has a couple of plays. and the run game cannot be embarrassing for Houston, they could probably put up 20-something points. And if we're going to get a fairly frustrating Ravens offense against what is still a very good Texans defense

and a very fast Texans defense, it just feels like that's a recipe for a tough one. And then the Rams are just, I mean, could probably count on one hand how many teams are better than the Rams right now and they're certainly better than the Baltimore Ravens. Yeah, it's a tough stretch might be getting a little bit tougher. and that's the last thing you want to hear as a Ravens fan considering how the first month of the season has gone.

All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to get to a couple of your voicemails with Monday morning. All right, this is our weekly voicemail segment where, you know, we try to talk through some of the issues that you guys are dealing with from the way that your team's played on Sunday night, calling it Monday morning with a you. We tapped into that last week, and I like it. We're going to keep it.

It's going to stick. I think that's the right way to handle it. So let's get to a couple of those calls, Beller. Let's hear the first one. Hi, this is Matt from Indianapolis. And can anybody tell our players that when they're running towards the end zone, if they could hold the ball with both hands before they run over the line. That's it.

That's it. I thought it was going to be more. That's delightful. That's incredible. I understand why that's an incredibly frustrating moment. But I got to say, if you're a Colts fan, and we talked about this last. night, like, you should be feeling great right now. That's a frustrating loss. But the fact that you went step for step, essentially, with the Rams in their building and you had, the only reason that

you lost is because of a couple moments like that, I get where that would drive you absolutely crazy. And every loss in the NFL, especially by a thin margin, is tough to deal with the next morning. But as a Colts fan, like, just take it to step back and have a little bit of perspective right now. The fact that you are a three-in-one team, the fact that you are consistently competitive every single week, the fact that your team is fun to watch right now, the vibes around your team are really good, that's a maddening loss for that specific reason. But you've already had more banked enjoyment watching the Indianapolis Colts play football over the last four weeks than you have probably over the last two seasons combined. So deep breath and I think just a little bit of gratitude for what the first month of Indianapolis is, as Colts football has brought to the people of Indiana. But what's funny is, doesn't this speak to like how quickly that like people can change

their expectations for like a month ago, one in three would have been very on the table for this Colts team and probably expected maybe 0 and 4 if a couple of bounces go right. But now we're at the point where they end up at 3 and O almost beat a potential Super Bowl team in the Los Angeles Rams. And it's again, it's one silly play away from them from them doing that. I actually was funny too. I had somebody asked me, they were like, is AD Mitchell going to get like investigated for that?

And I was like, listen, he's just like that. Like sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes play Mitchell experience. Yeah. I hate the fact that, and this is just a mean problem, I seem to like all of these receivers that just would drive you absolutely insane. Like I like 80, I like 80 Mitchell what he's bringing.

There was a stretch where I was like, oh man, I really like like what d'ontavian wicks brings to the table. Like all of these kind of like wild horse type receivers are there's something about them that I really enjoy. And so the fact that we got the entire spectrum of the 80 Mitchell experience yesterday was an emotionally trying stretch for me as somebody who really appreciates elements of his game. Because even on that play, him catching the football is crazy. It's a crazy play. It does not. It looks like the ball just like magnetizes to his chest somehow. Like it doesn't look like he should grab it.

And then he keeps going and he. just he does the thing and it's just i mean i get it though with those receivers it's like if you took their best 10 plays in a given season you'd be like holy shit man this guy has 1500 yards and then you look at the end of it the year it's like a third of that i still believe in adi mitchell i still do believe that there's like a productive future for adi mitchell despite what happened yesterday overall here's what i want to say about that colts fan and to me kind of responding to like the bears discourse over the last 24 hours and people being upset with me about not being more excited that the Bears won last night. Here's what I care about more than whatever happened on the final

play of a game. Is the team good, right? Did the team play well? Did the performance that the team had on Sunday, what would it lead you to believe about the future performances that the teams will have. That for the most part is what I root my experience in when I'm watching these teams play. And so to watch the Bears win a game yesterday, where they get outplayed in every facet of the game despite it, except for the turnover battle, and watching the Colts play yesterday and coming away from it being like, oh man, the Colts are like a real football team. Maybe that's just a broken part of my brain. But when I'm watching teams play, that is the number one thing I have at front of mine.

Like, that's what I want to know. Is the team good? And did they show me that they're good on Sunday? And does that lead me to believe that they will be good in the future? Because all I really care about is what you're building toward. The short-term results, if they're not indicative of you building towards something productive, I care less about the individual short-term results. Is that crazy?

No, I don't think. Like, everyone is playing for December. And so there is some element of, like, you've got to bank up wins. to make sure that the games you're playing in December do matter, but like the Colts already did that. They started, they won their first three games. And though,

so again, I think we even, again, we went into the week specifically with the Colts being like, if you can play a one score game with the Rams, you're probably a pretty serious team. And like, I think that game went exactly as you wanted to.

Whereas with the Bears, they get to two and two now, but to have to win that game that way against the Raiders team that has not looked very good this year, that's, that's a little bit more concerning, even though they get the W this week. Yeah, I don't, the guess this is just the way that I look at it, but my bigger priority is, did the team play well?

Not did the team win the game? Because I think if the teams can play as well consistently enough, you'll probably win enough. Yes, you will win more football games if the team is good at football. And so the Colts being good at football and having one more data point in their favor yesterday to me is indicative of progress. the Bears winning the football game yesterday, despite being bad at football, to me, does not point at more wins down the road. So that just wanted to get that off my chest based on how the last 12 hours or so have gone. All right, let's get to one more voicemail here before we get out of here. This is Carl. Cross the Pond. Experience and defeat.

I'm calling harkening back to a taste that Robert and the gang had earlier in the year, or preseason, rather, around the Bears. that if Caleb faltered with all that they had done to put around him between Ben Johnson, the offensive line, everything else, it was sort of a, what else can you do, hands up in the air, moment.

I'm wondering if we're mirroring that with the Minnesota Vikings offensive line. After years of not really doing anything, it seemed finally through draft capital in the form of a first round pick, big, expensive free agent additions, and the return of a vaunted left tackle is Christian Derrissau. However, through four weeks, albeit with some injury,

we're taking the most stacks, I think, in the league so far. And as a Viking fan, I have to have anything left we can do, or is this just it? Thanks. That was probably the most despair I've heard in anybody's voice for any of the voicemails that we've done all year. I can understand that because there has been a lot of anxiety just around like the way that the Vikings have built their offensive line going back like years and

years and years. One of my favorite things is when you go to these training camps. And I've, this was a time where I had a lot of relationships with the Vikings beat at the time. Like, you know, Matthew Collar really well and Courtney Cronin was covering the Vikings for ESPN at the time. And so just kind of stand around to practice. And you just kind of hear about the depths of the roster and like where some of the issues were. Like those are the things that people who cover the team day to day. That's what they're thinking about all the time. and the interior of the offensive line has just been that thing for the Vikings, like for years and years and years. And so for them to spend the money that they did this offseason and to still be struggling to an extent up front, I can understand where there's a little bit of despair. That being said, you came into this game with already missing your starting left guard that you drafted in the first round.

You lose your center halfway through the game, and then you lose your very good right tackle, 10 plays into the game, and you're already playing against a team that has a ton of time. of talent on the other side of the ball. You combine that with the fact that the joke I made yesterday while watching the game, Kevin O'Connell was trying to play quarterback through Carson Wentz. It's like playing a video game. And for every once in a while, it looks great for stretches. And then the batteries in the controller die. Like the Patrick Queen sack that he had at one point in the game, like Wentz just freezes.

It literally looks like a glitch when this thing is happening. And so I think for a lot of different reasons, this probably looks worse than it's going to look in the long term, even though I understand why it has been so frustrating at this point. Yeah. And like, there is part of it that I do wonder if like, I understand feeling cursed in the sense of like you've spent all this on the offensive line and like they've mostly not really played together this year. So that aspect of it I can get. The taking as many sacks as they have again, that is partly had all these injuries and stuff and that's part of it. But also like these are two quarterbacks who were going to take sacks. Like you had J.J. McCarthy in his first two games ever as

the youngest quarterback in the league, he's going to take. sacks, man. Like, that's just kind of the way that it's going to go. And then you have Carson Wentz, who, like, his entire career, even when he was good was that he'll just stand there for too long and take too many sacks. By the way, the fact that he is still, like, 10 years into this trying to do the duck under defender thing in the pocket, that's such a ridiculous bit. He's got to stop doing that. It's kind of amazing he continues to try it. Yeah, I think overall with the Vikings, I understand why this has been a frustrating start to this season, based on the way that the last couple years have gone. And I'm sure. I'm sure.

watching Sam Darnold right now is maddening how well Sam Darnold is playing. But this was always going to be a growing pain sort of year going to a young quarterback. And I don't, I'm curious how you feel about this. But this idea that if Carson Wentz had played pretty well over these couple weeks when J.J. McCarthy was hurt, they should just continue to play Carson Wentz. I find that crazy. like I just I don't even begin to understand that it's like to what end he would have had to been throwing for like 400 yards three touchdowns like if he was doing that fine but that was

never going to be on the table you've already made the decision you've already let go of the quarterback who could have made you competitive like that's over now at some point when the kid is healthy enough to play he has to play you have to give him the reps and you have to give him the experience, if the Vikings are going to do what the Vikings want to do in the next couple years with this kind of limited window that they have based on some of the players they've signed in free agency, right? Like, you go out and you get Jonathan Allen, you go out and you get Javon Hargrave. Like, there are aging pieces to this where like, okay, we're really trying to push our

chips in over the next couple years. They've got plenty of other young, cost-controlled guys where it's not over if they don't make good on this in the next couple years. But they've really tried to be aggressive in this, like, two-year window that they have. I don't, at some point in that two-year window, for it all to come together, J.J. McCarthy must be good at football. And in order for him to become good at football, eventually he has to play a little bit of

football. So this thought that like Carson, they might just keep rolling with Carson Wentz if he was playing well. That's crazy to me. And so I think all of this was always going to be a little bit frustrating because there was a very good chance the team wasn't going to be as good this year as it had. And it was, it was last year. it had been earlier under Kevin O'Connell, but that's okay.

Like the goal here is not to win 11 games and get bounced in the divisional round. The goal is to win the Super Bowl. And I think there are going to be some tough stretches to get there. And you shouldn't be scared of the tough stretches. I agree with that. Like the goal for them is for next year or the year after that to be a team that you can reasonably win the Super Bowl. But in order to get there, you have to find out if the quarterback is good enough and get him the reps to be able to do that. And I know the first couple of weeks did not look great.

but again, they have to be able to live with some of that stuff and whether and hope that when he comes back, they can get a little bit more stuff that they feel good about. Yes, and I think that that hopefully will happen when he comes back healthy here over the next couple weeks. All right, that is all we've got for today on the week four hangover. If you guys have not checked out the Monday night football recap that is currently in the YouTube channel feed after the two games last night,

highly encourage you to do that. We'll be back with a full slate of shows over the rest of the week. for now that's all we got appreciate you guys listening we'll talk to you very soon