The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 5 Hangover: The Patriots break through, the Lions cruise past the Bengals, and the Saints get their first win

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

For the first time since 2014, no NFL team made it to 5-0. The Bills nearly did it, but, instead, Sunday Night Football turned into a coming-out party for Drake Maye and the Patriots. How did the Patriots pull off the upset? Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dig in on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also dive deep on the Lions dismantling of the Bengals and the Saints first win of the season, a 26-14 triumph over the Giants. Plus, sad voicemails from Ravens, Cardinals and Jets fans.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)5:40 Patriots-Bills recap21:42 Lions-Bengals recap37:20 Giants-Saints recap54:57 Monday Mourning: Ravens1:01:32 Monday Mourning: Cardinals1:09:09 Monday Mourning: JetsConnect with The Athletic Football ShowX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. It's the week five hangover with me and Derek Klessin. For those of you guys, one familiar with how we do this, we pick three games that we did not dig into in depth on our Sunday night recap show and just revisit them a little bit the morning after. We've got the Sunday night football game,

which we touched on a little bit last night, but really didn't get to chew on. And so after going back and rewatching it in detail, me and Derek picked out some of the stuff we didn't notice live. And Pat's bills really enjoyed them. that conversation. Also hit on the Lions beaten up on the Bengals, just a tough situation for the Bengals offense and the Lions doing more of the same, always enjoyable to go back and watch that

team whenever you get a chance. They play with just such great effort. And that's been true since Dan Campbell got there and just isn't going to change until he leaves, I think. And then finish things off with the Saints getting their first win of the season over the Giants, Giants beating themselves in a bunch of different ways in that game. And then ended the show by hitting a couple of your sad voicemails from last night in another edition of Monday morning. So let's get to that conversation with me and Derek Klesson right now. We started calling the show The Hangover, Derek, just because it felt like an app's name for the morning after approach. But after the game, after the weekends that have the Europe games, I truly do feel hungover on Mondays.

I haven't had a drink in five and a half years. But these are the days I feel most hungover. And so the name feels more appropriate than ever during this like four week stretch where we have the Europe games to kick us off on Sundays. The Europe games are tough, man. And like we've, they're tough as a West coaster, but honestly, it's not the early wake up for me. Like the 630, I'm usually up around that time anyway, but we've talked about this. It's the 16 hour day that when you get to the end of it, you're just like, you've been brain on for 16 hours. You got to do a little show at the end.

It's just, it's a lot. And then especially when you get a Sunday night game like that. that kind of has you wired and kind of you tuned in. It was just, it was a long day. I've been doing this for so long, right? So I've been doing this for like 15 years. I still don't know how to do it. Like there's so much of me that while watching the Europe game wants to be like,

you know, I'll casually watch this. It'll be on. I'll be having coffee. I'll take the dog out, whatever. And then immediately when Vikings Brown starts yesterday, I'm taking notes on every single play that happens. Like I still haven't figured out how to approach watching an NFL. NFL game and figuring out what matters and what doesn't from it, even though I've been doing this

for a decade and a half. And so what happens is it turns into 16 straight hours of just taking notes the entire time, when in reality, I probably don't have to do it that way. At some point, I will become better at this job. Well, it's also like you tell yourself you don't need to care about Vikings Browns because you don't really. But then you see like the weird little play where they put Justin Jefferson in the backfield and you're like, hmm, this is actually kind of fun.

It's exactly right. I'm just sitting there tick-tacking away about J-L a nail or insert play actions in the first drive of the game. And so it's fun. But I think that, again, the hangover show has become a little bit more aptly named when we have those days the day before. But we've got three good ones to get into today. A lot to talk about. We're going to hit the Sunday night game like we mentioned on yesterday's recap show. We're going to talk Lions Bengals. And then we're also going to dig into Giants Saints. The New Orleans Saints has become the team of the weekly hangover show. And it's actually kind of fun. I've enjoyed like our little Saints visit that we

get to do here every single Monday. I'm sure they will do something at some point that gets them entry into the actual recap show. And again, we said this last night. If we didn't have so many other WTF moments coming out of week five, the Giants performance might have been in there. And so this is probably the closest that the Saints got over our first five weeks of the season. Let's start with the Sunday night game. Let's do it. Let's do it this way. We talked about the Sunday night come a little bit last night. When you went back and you actually watched this in detail and we're really studying it, what were the things that you caught on rewatch that you think were most important that you weren't able to catch in real time? I mean, I guess it kind of depends on which side of the

ball we want to start with. I would say defensively. You choose your own adventure, buddy. I would say on the side of Patriots defense versus Bill's offense, I thought a number of things stood out to me. I thought there were a number of really good moments from the Patriots in run defense. I think their D-line got moved off at the ball a little bit, but like the linebackers, especially Jalani Tavai actually had like a really, really good game. And so I thought that that was more impressive as I went back and watched it. I also thought New England did a really good job for the most part of keeping a roof on stuff and we're going to make Josh Allen hold onto the ball or take a lot of the underneath stuff. And I think at a certain point, he got pretty

antsy with that and started making a few mistakes. And I think the interception that he throws a little bit later in the red zone where Shakir is kind of cutting across the middle. That one also was like a weird interception in that I think Josh Allen kind of throws that as if he expects Shakir to run back a little bit towards the line of scrimmage and like get in front of that ball. But there's a trailing defender and Shakir doesn't really feel it.

Defender is the one who undercuts, it picks it off. It just felt like Buffalo never quite got into the rhythm that they wanted to because even a lot of the chunk plays they had early, it was Josh Allen making some sort of crazy play outside of the pocket. it was the flea flicker that they hit down the left side. It was a lot of like Josh Allen Save Us or these one or two designer plays, even like the Curtis Samuel touchdown they hit was very designery. Like they just didn't feel like they had as much rhythm as this offense typically does.

Yeah, and then also you throw in the turnovers as well. You have the two fumbles early in the game, which torpedo drives. And then just, you know, little tiny moments that when they're down three nothing in the red zone, Josh keeps that ball on what should have probably been a give to Shakir at 9. 955 in the second quarter. They're forced to kick a field goal there. He takes a sack in late in the second quarter. It's like a little overload look from the paths with Landry coming around as a looper.

He gets a little panicky in the pocket. And so just that to me was like great game planning from New England in the sense that Buffalo more than any other team loves to push the back out out. A little bit from the backfield to get like a read on like, okay, is it man coverage or we just want to create a little space. But if he's out there, he's not going to be in the backfield protecting. And so if you send four bodies to that side, like you said, you're going to be able to throw a loop and one guy's going to get free. Yeah, I felt like New England's, or the Buffalo's offense overall just felt a little bit unsettled over the course of the game. And it felt a little bit up and down where they rely more on splash plays than this offense typically has. I mean, just think about how much, how methodical they've felt for the most part over the first four weeks of the season.

They haven't been that explosive, but they've been ruthlessly efficient. And they were still pretty efficient in this game. I think the turnovers ultimately do them in, but they had a couple of those less clean moments than we've seen so far this year from the Buffalo Bill's offense. And then I think the biggest swing on that side of the ball in the entire game is what happens right before that interception that you were just talking about. So they're down 13 to 10 at that point. And they have an OPI on Khalil Shakir on what would have been a third and one like inside the five yard line. it goes back to second and 13, and that's when Marcus Jones picks that ball off. It's a great play by Marcus Jones in man coverage, by the way.

I mean, it's a good recovery by him. It's a great play on the ball by him. And so, again, I think that Buffalo shot themselves in the foot a little bit with a few of those mistakes. But New England deserves some credit for, again, how unsettled they made this offense feel in multiple moments over the course of the game. Yeah, and a lot of that was, they played a lot of man coverage in this game. Like they played almost 40% man coverage, which on one hand, against Josh Allen can be scary if he decides to run around the way that he can. But it's also, we've talked about this before for years with the Buffalo Bills.

They don't have that many like we can just beat you one-on-one receivers. And if you challenge these guys. Yes, challenge them. If you feel good about Christian Gonzalez is going to blank this guy 80% of the time. Okay, then you take the one in five losses that you take. Same with Carlton Davis and all those guys. Again, Marcus Jones played a good game. And I do think the safeties are a little bit athletically limited.

But I think in coverage actually do a pretty good job of being where they need to be helping these guys squeeze routes and man coverage as like these, you know, secondary over the top guys. So I think they did a really good job of, again, outside of one or two insane scramble plays from Josh Allen, not giving them the explosives they wanted, really making them be methodical, doing just enough in run defense to not let them have that feel that they usually have. The only real explosives they had in the passing game, I mean, you can kind of list them on one hand. They had the flea flicker where he takes the overrout instead of the clear out, which having a secondary throw on your flea flicker as like when you're trying to run into one side of the field.

I don't think I've seen that route get accessed on a flea flicker before where it's almost like a checkdown, but it's 25 yards down the field. So they hit that for a chunk. And then it was honestly very similar. The two bigger chunks they hit against man coverage in this game, they're just big crossers coming all the way left to right. And even with good coverage, if you have enough time on those throws and an entire side of the field is bled out, you can put that ball into space and give your guy a chance. That was the Josh Palmer catch against man coverage, where Christian Gonzalez is in his hip pocket that entire way.

But if you have enough time for Josh now to sit there and bounce in the pocket, and you can throw it five yards away from Christian Gonzalez, you're able to give your guy a chance in those moments. But there were only a few of those over the course of the entire game. And then there was one of Kincaid that I actually thought was a really nice play by Pinkade. It was a second and 12 to start the second quarter. And he just kind of finds space on like a crossing. after coming in motion and Alan hits him for a chunk there.

But those were really the only big explosive plays in the passing game that the Patriots had the entire day. Yeah, it was like a really impressive performance for them. Like that was what you want this Patriots defense to look like. Where again, because you play so much man coverage, you're going to lose a couple of times. But the front looked good. You did enough in run defense and you make one or two plays with the turnovers. And that's how you win an ugly game.

Let's talk about the other side of the ball. After you took a deeper look at what Drake May and this offense did against Buffalo. anything you noticed on the rewatch that was not readily apparent to you when you watched it in real time? Or anything that was reinforced? So I would say a couple of things were reinforced. One, we talked about this a little bit.

The chemistry between Josh Allen, or sorry, he plays a lot like Josh Allen, sorry, he has that in my mind. And we're talking about Stefan Diggs. The chemistry between Drake May and Stefan Diggs is really beautiful to watch. And it's like, there's still a little bit of work in progress, like very early in the game on one of the,

I think, third and threes. Drake May is, they're seeing cover two, which actually the bill's played a lot of Tampa too early in this game. And Diggs is running one of those slant routes from the right side. He's trying to fit into that window between the flat defender and that first hook defender. May tries to put it on his back shoulder so he can keep him away from the hook defender. Diggs is a little late to see it. It doesn't hang on to it.

But as the rest of the game went on, Diggs did such a good job of like Scramble Drow. Okay, I know where I need to spin out and go find space. Or sitting in zones later in the game, he did a good job of it. There was another play later in the game where Diggs is running like a corner route, sail route on the left side against Tampa 2. And he knows that May is going to throw the ball a little bit short and a little bit low so that the safety over the top can't drive down on it. And he's comfortable going and getting that.

So like just the chemistry between those two is really cool because I think going in, I thought Diggs was just going to be the like, oh, they having to be one-on-one coverage every now and then. And that's going to be his thing. But they've really done a good job of just chemistry-wise finding space on the field. then Diggs after the catch was really good in this game. I think I kind of didn't quite appreciate how good he was after the catch until I rewatched it. I think there were two drives that really stood out to me for New England.

They had a drive to go up 13 to 10, where it was just chunk play, chunk play, chunk play. He had to a whole shot to Diggs off play action for 16 yards. And you know what else really jumped out to me in this game? And this play, I think, was an example of it. There were plenty of them. On this play, Pop Douglas is coming in like a little bit of emotion. Drake turns and fakes a handoff to Pop Doug was going right to left. And Pop Drifts out into the flat on the play.

And then Travion Henderson was offset to the left side. And he immediately runs a route to the left side, but with a little bit of depth. And that to me is a really good example of, all right, we have a flat controller. We have somebody kind of holding down the hook defender on that side with the back. And then you have Diggs running that corner route into the whole shot area. And the flat defender is getting yanked down toward that flat route a little bit. And so it gives him the space to make that throw. The spacing, knowing they were playing, just the spacing in general with some of the route

distribution. But when you watch it manifest against a zone heavy team, it's just really good details. Like you just saw that throughout the game. Like you watch, if you pause it at the top of his drop and you look at where the routes are distributed, knowing you're playing against a zone-based team. On so many of these plays, it's like, this is, you're putting a guy in conflict. You're like, you are making this hard on each of these zone defenders. And I just think it again was a reminder.

After watching this offense last week, I think you notice how good some of the little details are. And I think that showed up a lot in this game. So that's a 16-yard game to digs. Next play, they did this a lot. And I actually really like it as an idea. But again, especially against a zone-based team, they'll be in a split-back look with Ramandre and Trayvon Henderson on either side of Drake May. They'll bolt ship immediately.

and then they'll both release. And the timing of it is, you can again, just tell. It's very well ironed out where the ships really help with the pass protection. And then as they release, as Drake is essentially hitting the back of his drop, they're yanking defenders down and creating space for him to make some of these throws. And so that happens right after the Diggs chunk play, and Drake hits booty on like a comeback for 16 yards.

And then that drive ends with the scramble drill throw to Diggs. And then it's a touchdown for Ramadre. That's 13, 10. And then the other one that really jumped out to me, the drive essentially put them up 20 to 10. Drake buys time on third down outside of the pocket, finds dig for digs working the sideline for third and seven, flips it to digs on third and three against the blitz. And then hits a chunk play to Hunter Henry out of another one of those splitback looks

for 24 yards over the middle of the field. And that play was another really good example. There were two plays in this game where I'm watching Will Campbell hold up in pass protection against Bosa to give Drake that time. And that play was a perfect example. And then on the next, they score the touchdown there with Ramonjay on the little flip, Hunter Henry is great in space on that touchdown to Ramadre Stevenson. Hunter Henry was awesome in this game as both a receiver and a blocker.

And so I hope you can hear it in my voice like how excited I am to watch the Patriots right now because of how well designed the details of it and how well the individual players are kind of shining through. I did not anticipate having this experience, even if we were optimistic about what the Patriots offense could look like. Me neither, especially because like, I think coming in,

a lot of the, some more of the excitement would have been like, oh, maybe Kyle Williams does something. Maybe Trayvian Henderson really pops. And like Henderson has been okay, but like neither of those guys have done anything. It's been Kishon Booty being better than we thought. Stefan Diggs turning back the clock.

I guess the Hunter Henry of it all is not surprising. He was kind of Drake May's favorite guy last year. And then the offensive. He's even playing better than I expected. I mean, even if he was Drake May's guys last year, I did not anticipate him impacting games for a real NFL offense the way he is doing right now. Especially because the play that you mentioned where he catches at like 24-yard or

over the middle, he takes a shot trying to make that catch. And that is not like, you know, Drake May through a hospital ball. That was just really tough. That's the one play I really want to talk about. So they're running dagger there with Henry running like the deep kind of seam kind of route. And usually on dagger, You want to let that guy be the clear out and then you throw the dig behind it. But the dig gets covered and May kind of holds his eyes there,

seeing all the second level defenders kind of push over it. Now, usually if you're going to throw that like the seam dagger clear out route late, you're going to throw it way over the top and just let a guy run under it, whatever. Drake May goes, I can fit this under the safeties and just rips it in between that. Like that, you just don't see that ball put there very often. And that to me was like the, okay, if he can access that area of the. field like that. He's he's he's a little bit different than some of these other guys. Yeah. And if you guys want to go back and watch that play and just see the job Will Campbell does,

just holding up in pass protection. This game to me, there were multiple examples of what made him such a special player in college. Even with some of the size concerns, the length concerns, he's not an overwhelming athlete, his ability to recover from disadvantageous body positions and just maintain control of a defender throughout the entire play is kind of wild. Like when you watched it in college, the mirroring ability was really special, even if some of the other stuff maybe had left cause for concern. And you saw that against Bosa multiple times in this game. There was a second and 15 play action crossword Henry where it was the exact kind of thing.

He actually oversets on the initial step off play action and then has to recover and picks up Bosen does a fantastic job. and then Henry goes up at high points. It's a very nice layered throw from Drake May. It was right before they kicked the field goal to go up six to three. So just another impressive performance from this Patriots offense. And I think it's really good to point out that whatever your excitement was coming into it, it was probably about the guys they added, like the young pieces that might feel dynamic.

And in reality, it's been like this millennial ass group of pass catchers that somehow is carrying this group with Drake May. It's, again, I couldn't have imagined it looking this way. but him just getting a shot to go do what he's got to do. It's been a lot of fun to watch. It's funny. Coming into the year, I looked at the over under for the Patriots,

and I was kind of like, man, that seems a little aggressive based on what this team was last year. Even if they should be better offensively, I just, this feels like a lot. And, you know, I think we talked a lot about this over the summer where you look at some of the numbers

from Jake May last year and from this offense. When you consider the environment, it was a miracle. The fact that this was not one of the worst offenses in the NFL and so with more help, could they take a big jump? I think that was on the table, but I still think this is even more pronounced than even the most optimistic Patriots believers could have predicted coming into the season. And I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

This is a team that feels like they are absolutely going to be in the mix to be a wildcar team based on the quality of the offense. And I think that felt a little bit quick for me coming into the season. But I think that they have kind of erased whatever doubts I had about that. I feel pretty comfortable voicing my belief in their ability to get that done and be like a 10 and 7 wildcard team. Especially after a game like this. Because the first four weeks of the season, I know they got to two and two and all that stuff. But like, it was not a very tough schedule.

Like, and so the fact that they were 500 was nice for them where they were at on their trajectory. But it was like, beat a real team. And then they go out and beat what is maybe the best team in football. And so it's like now, okay, sure, you needed the turnovers, whatever. But they played a very, even though they had a couple of bounces that went their way, this did not feel like. a fluke you win at all. This felt like a quality team went out. A couple of things went their way, and they beat a very, very good football team. Let's get to our next one here. The Lions take care of business against the Cincinnati Bengals. They win 37 to 24. I don't really know where else to start

with this other than just the total unwatchability of the Cincinnati Bengals offense right now is kind of depressing. Unlike multiple different levels, Zach Taylor comes out this morning. says he's going to maintain play calling, which is not at all surprising. It's always been a very collaborative play calling approach there. I think him being the one to actually say it into the headset, even if he's not, I don't know what that really changes. But the notable part of this is that he was noncommittal to Jake Browning as the starting quarterback for the Bengals moving forward.

And I don't blame him at all after going back and watching this. It's hard to justify just rolling with Browning for the rest of the year, considering what they're getting out of him and the struggles that they're experiencing on offense. Yeah, I, this to me, I think there are a number of certain particular plays that we can go to. Like, I think accuracy-wise, Jake Browning was just bad in this game. But to me, the biggest, most egregious error was the interception he throws to Alex Anzolone. Because he could have thrown that. What is that?

He could have thrown that to three different defenders. All three guys were there. And, like, Ancelotie doesn't even really move on the play. he's kind of just hanging out on the hash and Browning just like late in the down kind of turns over to this crosser. And that was the other thing. It's not like this was some predetermined play that he just, ah, I got to force it in there. It was later in the down. He turns to it. It's triple covered and he just throws it in there for like literally all three players could have picked it off. And that to me was like, it felt for a lot of this game that he was doing just a lot of I'm going to chuck it up and see what happens. but that was the most where it felt like, okay, the dam has broken.

And he just does not feel very comfortable reading out the play, which, again, offensive lines bad. They're not running the ball well to put them into down and distances. I get that. But he's not doing anything to help them overcome that. And again, I know he's a backup and most of them can't, but it's just the fact that they're getting absolutely nothing, I think, is tough. So many of these plays where you're not going to have that many opportunities

with your backup quarterback end. You've got to take advantage of the opportunities. and a couple of them, the first interception, like Chase is one-on-one with Robertson on the outside. Like if you put that ball in the correct spot, you're going to allow Jamar Chase to go make a play on it. We've seen that exact level of separation and that exact idea turn into positives for the Bengals' offense

how many times over the last couple years. So one-on-one on the outside, Chase is running an outbreak. It's decent coverage. But if you give him a shot there, he's probably going to be able to make a play on it. It's left inside. It's an interception.

The third and seven shot, that he takes on the post to Higgins. If he just leaves that out into the middle of the field, T can go make a play on that. Instead, he leads him further upfield and back outside, and it allows Yassin to make a play on it. Those guys, this is the engine of what your offense is supposed to be, is these guys, they're open as different than other people's,

but you still have to put it in enough of a spot to give them a shot on it, and he's just not doing that consistently. the accuracy is poor, the decision making is poor. He feels panicky in the pocket, even when he probably shouldn't. The ball's not coming out on time. It's not going where it should be. And so I just think they're giving, they're dead in the water. Like he's not giving them a real shot.

I think there are frustrations to be had with the overall structure of the offense and how this thing is being built and some of the things they're trotting out. But right now, the way that he is playing, they seemingly have absolutely no chance on that side of the ball. And so that's the thing. If he's not going to give your two superstars chances to get the shot plays. Because again, he was throwing high and behind on a lot of these. Those couple of ones that you mentioned, but there was even a rollout earlier in the game

where Higgins is running like a crosser and he throws it like up and back and behind him. And it's like you don't even give him a chance. Whereas if you give Higgins a chance most of the time, he can come down with it more than other guys can. So that part of it has been frustrating. And then again, some of the down to down stuff, they just cannot get it open. And I do, I actually do want to credit Detroit for that. I think they played a really good game on defense for a lot of that.

Me too. Alex Anzolone on multiple third in shorts, incredible coverage. Like there was one where he defends a whip route and goes and gets a hand on it. There was another one to Gaseki was running a speed out to the left. And he forces a tight window on the sideline and then just like kind of jostles with Gosecchi at the very end to punch it out. Like he played an awesome game. And then the thing that I thought was cool was they did a really good job of in whenever they wanted to go man coverage, which Detroit still does them. a decent amount.

They would have Branch kind of play over the middle of the field as this like robber. And any time he saw a shallow, just go and kill the guy underneath. And he did that three or four times. And it was like, when you know you have Jamar Chase and they want to run him on all these shallows, let's just go get ahead of it and not give them the easy ones. Like it was Browning had his issues by himself, but also Detroit just played a really, really good game. It was a really good game plan.

I think that all that robber coverage that you're talking about, you're essentially creating de facto double teams in man coverage because you have that safe. as that roaming player playing over the top of everything. And a lot of the reason that you'll want to play, if you play like one hole with like the linebacker as like that kind of roaming player in the middle of the field, oftentimes or at least sometimes, that's because you don't trust your linebackers in man coverage.

Like if they're going to put those guys in a bind, you can take advantage of linebackers in man coverage. I think the gap in coverage between the Lions linebackers and the Bengals linebackers was the most pronounced difference between these two teams in this entire game. I'm so glad that you mentioned it. Like Anzolone had multiple really nice moments. Campbell snuffed out a screen at some point.

And the Lions, this entire day, had anything they wanted in the flat whenever they wanted to have it. And it's just, you feel, it's sometimes you don't notice it when you're watching a game in real time. But then you go back and you rewatch it with this sort of scope. And you just feel quality and poor linebacker play in a more obvious way. And that's exactly what it was today. It's just like you just feel the difference in quality. between the two groups of linebackers between these teams when you go back and watch what was available to the respective offenses.

It's such a good way to put it. Because too, like we mentioned, we just talked about how much man coverage Detroit will play and how comfortable they are letting some of their linebackers do that when they need to. The Bengals played four snaps of man coverage in this game. And part of that is maybe the DBs, but that's also because they just don't trust their linebackers, especially against guys like Sam Laporta, Jemir Gibbs,

like those type of caliber of guys, they just don't trust them. But then when they weren't a lot of this zone coverage, stuff, you still get Amman Ross St. Brown in the slot against whatever linebacker you want to pick. A lot of the boot stuff, they did a good job of manipulating the linebacker's eyes. Like, they were really abusing them there. And then the other frustration I had with the Bengals defense was we were told. All the Joseph Osai coverage snaps? Yes, that was frustrating to you? We were told all year, oh, this thing's going to be simpler and we're just going to let these guys go and play. And then every play, it's Joseph Osai and the other defense events and coverage.

I'm like, well, why are we doing that? And every time they were, they were finding Laporta, St. Brown, whoever it was in coverage. I'm just like, man, I just don't understand the plan really defensively for Cincinnati. And then the execution of it really outside of the interior defensive line is pretty tough right now. Which actually makes me feel crazy because the biggest complaint I had like a year or two ago with Cincinnati goes like, man, everything else about the defense kind of has something. But the interior is just hurt. It's bad. It's all this stuff.

Now I kind of feel the opposite, where the interior D-Line is kind of nice, everything else outside of Trey Hendricks and is just not up to snuff. I think the D.Bs have their moments. Like that DJ Turner pass breakup and man coverage against Amman Ross St. Brown was a really impressive play. Like I don't think the DBs are like garbage. I think what's happening in zone coverage and some of the underneath areas like gives this passing game absolutely no shot.

And you felt the biggest difference to me, there were two versions of the Lions passing game on Sunday. There was the version when there was no pressure. and there was the version one there was pressure. Every time they tried to heat up Jared Goff, in the moments where the defense actually looked decent, it's because they were heating him up. They were sending some sort of blitz.

It was Hendrickson winning quickly against a backup left tackle or against Brock Wright, you know, kind of sliding over and taking care of him on the backside. But when he was not pressured and they were forcing the issue in this game, it was just way too easy. I mean, the numbers are disgusting. Per next gen, on plays where he was not pressured yesterday, Jared golf 17 of 19 for 229 yards and three touchdowns.

That is just, it was routes on air. Like when he was not pressured in this game, it was routes on air. It really was. There were so many moments, again, because when you're trying to drop out defensive ends, who that's not their thing to have them go cover Sam Leporta in the flat, it just doesn't make like one of Sam Leporta's touchdowns was because they did exactly that. They dropped the end off and he's just absolutely free. Like it was just a ridiculous game.

I think part of what I was saying with the DBs too, They do actually have the good moments in coverage. They're a bad run defense unit. Like the, I think the Montgomery touchdown that gets them up 28 to 3, they run right at Dax Hill. And he just surrenders like five yards of space to Sam Laporta. I'm like, if you're not going to go take on blocks against Sam LaPorta, you're not going to do it against any tight end. I, I'm not here for the Sam Leporta block. He's better.

But no, I'm off this. I am not here for the Sam Laporta blocking slander anymore. He has been so much better at the point of attack. I feel like he's actually been a defined positive for them this year in those moments. The Gibbs touchdown. The one where he blocks Osai? Yes. He dominates him at the point of attack in this game.

And so early in his career, and I think it's important to contextualize why this Sam LaPorta blocking thing has become a conversation on the show over the last couple years. your skepticism of him as a blocker is that for the most part early in his career, to their credit, they did not ask him to shoulder a heavy load at the point of attack. A lot of his blocking assignments are you are the second tight end in 11 and 12 personnel. You're going to be slicing across the formation. You're going to be blocking guys in space.

This is not Tip Ryman, right? This is not John Bates or Brock Wright. Like that's not what Sam Laporte is. and they didn't ask him to do that stuff. This year, I feel like they have done a better job and maybe a more intentional job, or maybe I'm noticing it more, of creating more like six and seven man surfaces

where it's going to be like Y, Y looks with him and right on the same side. And he's been much more physical and much more potent at the point of attack when being asked to do that this year than I think at any other point in his career. So I think Sam Boporta deserves at least some flowers for the job he has done as a blocker this year.

he definitely does especially too if we contextualize the player he is he doesn't need to be rob gruncowski or george kittle for it all to work he just has to be like speed bump level quality and he's gotten to at least that i will give him oh i think he's better than that i truly think he's i want to see it for more than more sad in his pants he is he definitely is i don't want to take it away from him but this is like i want to see it against some really really good defenses so many bad blocking tight ends in the nf oh there are there are so many bad ones the fact that he is as good as he is at this right now, that is a rarity when it comes to NFL tight ends that are at least semi-dangerous receivers. Like a lot of these guys who are good blocking tight ends,

they give you nothing as pass catchers. The fact that Sam Leporta is contributing, again, at the point of attack in the trenches the way that he is this year, I think he deserves a decent amount of credit for that. I don't really have anything else to hit with the lions. I mean, it's still like, for the most part, you know, a lot of the same. stuff we're used to with them. Called like a couple well-time screens in this game. Like the one where they get Pentee Soule out into space was beautiful. Like I love watching a big man, you know, get to do some work in space like that.

And then they had a get back one early in the third quarter that, to me, that was the best example of like the DBs just not being overly invested. Like Gino Stone just gets cooked on that play. And again, nice job by both Leporta and Tesla in space blocking on that screen. And it just, it's a reminder. reminder again of this offense, everyone's chipping in the little ways, everybody. And that's the feel that they've had consistently over the last few years. And I think you're just really reminded of it pretty much every single time you watch this

offense in depth. And that's why it's so enjoyable. Like it's the ideas combined with the effort makes this a fun watch every time you turn on the lion's offense. It's the buy-in. Like we've talked about this a million times with Dan Campbell and all that stuff. But like it's all the exes and those stuff is cool. But it's the fact that every single person down to. the 15th man on the offense is willing to do whatever little thing it takes.

All right. We're going to take our first quick break and then we're going to come back and talk a little Saints Giants. Hard not to start this conversation anywhere else than this giants are going to be kicking themselves about this one. I mean, their offense down to down wasn't bad over the course of this game. They had the same success rate as New Orleans. Yeah.

I think that their offense down to down was not bad over the course of this game. So that's a good thing to point out just statistically. and the context of these numbers don't really matter, but the Saints had a 42 and a half percent success rate in this game. The Giants had a 41 and a half percent success rate in this game. The Saints were at 0.09 EPA per play, which is like a solid offense. The Giants were at negative 0.21,

which would easily be the worst offense in the NFL. That's it. I mean, the turnovers and the self-inflicted wounds in this game ultimately did the Giants in. Yeah, they were brutal. Especially because a lot of them were in plus territory. It's not like, you know what I mean? Like they were driving and would have put points on the board. There was the one where DeMario Davis punches out.

The fumble, I think it was from Demarius Slayton. He rakes that one out. And then obviously the scoop and score that Scatibo gives up and Howard is able to run back. So like those two, especially of course the scoop and score were just like huge. Those are the points that could have won you the game and probably would have won you the game. And instead end up throwing them away because, yeah, just kind of silly little errors. But they really did find ways to move the ball. Like the run game is honestly solid.

And part of that is they see fewer eight-man boxes than any other team. And part of that is just who they're playing. Like the Chargers just do that. The Saints just do that. But they're at least taking decent advantage of it at times and especially have over the last couple of weeks. And so again, they were moving the ball there. Some of the early play action stuff was pretty good. And Dart is an accurate thrower when he's on that stuff.

And so they were able to hit some of those. Like they found a mode of offense to work. It's just all the stupid stuff, you know, the self-inflicted airs. And then that's, that doesn't even get to the Dart. fumble where nobody touches him, like just silly, stupid ways to lose this game. Yeah, I agree. And I wasn't, like, disappointed with what the offense look like down to down.

I mean, a couple of plays where it feels like they're leaving something on the field, I thought, along with the turnovers, to me, one of the biggest swings in the entire game is at their near midfields, late in the second quarter, they try to run a flea flicker, Darius Slayton is open on the flea flicker and DART just underthrows it. That's fine. But that, if you're going to call that on third and two, from shot territory.

I completely support that, by the way. I think that's the right call on third and two, third and two from about midfield. But then they get to fourth and two, and they take it to lay a game and they punt. And I think there are multiple moments in this game. They chose not to go forward on fourth and one from midfield earlier in the game.

And so the fact that they literally gave away five possessions via turnover, and then there were two more that they half gave away because they chose not to go forward in those moments. You're talking about seven possessions. It's hard to win in the NFL that way. way. Yeah, like you have some of those mistakes. And then really even at the end when they were kind of given themselves a chance, it was just like one thing after another. Like there was a

late in the fourth quarter, it's a third and three. Collins is coming over from the left to the right side on like a little shallow and there's a little bit of traffic. But Dart puts the ball on him around the sticks and it would have been in conversion. He drops it. I think on the following drive, Dart throws a really nice like high corner out to Theo Johnson. That one gets dropped and then two gets called back for holding anyway. And then the second interception that Dart throws where he's trying to throw a slant again to Collins, Collins kind of gives up on the route and McKinstree is just right there for it. And so that's just one of those things that like, okay, a backup player for you is kind of making

some mistakes and kind of hurting your young quarterback when he's giving you chances. And not like, Dart did not play perfect in this game. He had his own fair share of mistakes. But like even in the chance that he was making good plays for them, somebody else was kind of also messing it up. Like it was just, I actually came away feeling. okay about this offense, assuming they don't give away five possessions in the next game. Yeah, I feel the same way.

And then on the other side, I mean, the Saints had their share of mistakes, too. They had a lot of negative plays in plus territory, even if they weren't turning the ball over. So there were a lot of drives where they actually had a decent amount of momentum. They're rolling. And then there's a botch play here, a botch play there. There was a negative four-yard gain on a handoff to Tassum Hill, that torpedo to drive. They botched a draw, like a quarterback draw before. a Blake groupie miss field goal.

I still don't know exactly what was supposed to happen on that play, but Rattler gets dumped like five yards deep in the backfield. And then they had a fall start after that Taysom Hill chunk completion. And they have to settle field field goal on that drive. And so not quite as bad as the mistakes that we got from the Giants, but still moments of frustration when you're watching a Saints team that, again, this thing is put together in a way where there's a level of competency here with like the overall offensive ecosystem and infrastructure.

And so for them just to kind of stub their toe several times over the course of this game, it's just like, guys, we're so close. We're so close to being like a real NFL offense here. And you're refusing to get out of your own way when you're on like the plus 35 yard line. I know, like some of the negative plays were killing me in this game. I do think it was a really good. I think it was Kavon Tibado snuffed out the Taysam Hill run. He did.

He's been pretty good this year. Actually, like that was just a really good play by him. With the Saints offense, this was finally like they, the biggest issue with them is they just couldn't hit on any of the explosives. And they finally were able to hit on that big Shaheed where he looks like he's going to run the deep over, bends it back on the cross around the deep play action. And obviously he's pretty wide open. But Rattler pretty far down the field puts that right on him where he can keep running and just accelerate to the end zone like that. I think if they can just get one of those a game, Rattler and the offensive infrastructure overall does enough on a down to down basis. Like they're a solid run game and Rattler generally makes good decisions in the one to 10 yard area that as long as they don't do some of that shoot yourself in the foot when you get into the red zone stuff like they can again put be in that 20 ish point 24 point range against a lot of teams.

I thought that the very intentional job they did trying to create explosives be a heavy personnel in this game was very well done. That's a jihad play that you're talking about. They're in 13 personnel on that play. So they're getting base defense. they send Juan Johnson on a quick motion from left to right. They make him the number one receiver. And so that essentially against quarters just leaves Sheed one on one with Tyler Nubin. And Rashid Shahid is a scary player if you are backpedaling and he is coming at you full speed.

And so Shaheed just kind of sells it inside just for a second. And as soon as Nubin kind of takes that a little bit, that play is over. And so that's one that you win via design and the explosiveness of your past catchers. and then the Taysam Hill completion to Joanne Johnson, I'm pretty sure like that's zero four personnel, like if you were actually marking it up, because there's no back in the game. Taysam Hill, it's Taysam Hill at quarterback.

Spencer Rattler is lined up out wide, and the other three pass catchers are all tight ends. And so you have zero backs and four tight ends in the game, and everybody on that play is wide open. If you didn't want to throw it to Jawan Johnson for a chunk, I'm pretty sure Foster Morrow was running wide open down the middle of the field. And so when you're a team like the Saints and you have a second year, sixth round pick quarterback,

I think that's what he was, right? Sixth round pick. Fifth maybe, day three. It doesn't really matter. Day three is the correct framing. If you have a second year day three quarterback and you are picked to be the worst offense from one of the worst teams in the NFL, you got to find three or four moments over the course of the game when you can manufacture explosives for yourself.

And even in an imperfect performance where they had a little bit, a few moments of frustration, they found those two plays over the course of the game. And so I give a lot of credit to the way that the Saints have gone about this. Like they are not a slog to watch even if, you know, you're going to run into some inconsistency and some issues here and there. And again, like you mentioned with the Taysom Hill play, because it's one heavy and also weird personnel, you get a little bit more vanilla coverage from the defense and they just run Verts. And it puts the outside corner in conflict where he's like, I kind of got to split the difference between the guy running the team as the number. two and the guy on the outside and Taysam Hill goes, all right, you're too far to the outside.

I can just rip this and throw this. Like they, the design is solid. And I think as the offensive line hopefully comes together, that can help them out a little bit. That's the last thing I want to shout out. I know I'm the Kelvin Banks guy. The first month of the season was up and down for him. Obviously, some of what he did against. Bosa was tough.

Exactly. Just rookie tackle. Like Bosa got him a number of times. The Cardinals game he got beat a couple of times. The Seahawks front was able to get after him a little bit. This was the best game he's played as a pro. And I think if he can. start to find some of that a little bit as the year goes on,

especially with some of the other injuries and, like, right side issues that they've had on this offensive line. I think that could go a long way for this team for sure. The last sequence I want to talk about to me is just like a very Spencer Rattler sequence. The second, it's, uh, there's about 10 and a half minutes left in the third quarter. He gets called for an illegal forward pass penalty because he throws a ball. It gets deflected back to him and then he throws it again.

Right. So just that's how this starts. But then, to his credit, he makes multiple plays back to back. So it's second and 15 after the penalty. Next play, he ludes a rusher in the pocket, finds, I think it was Olave for like a seven-ish-yard gain, sets up a third and eight, just, okay, we're on schedule, we're giving ourselves a chance. And then on that third and eight, he buys time outside of the pocket, moves to his right,

and he finds Olave for like a 15-yard chunk. And so that three-play sequence is like, this is the Spencer Rattler experience. Like, you're going to get a little bit of every. And there's a decent amount of good to go along with the head scratching. There really is a decent amount of good. And the last thing I want to say about him, I know we've done a lot of like joky stuff about him because just weird prospect, this is a stupid Saints team, all that stuff. It really is cool to me how, and I don't want to do like full on psychoanalysis, but just like

how mature he's become. Whereas even in college, if something went wrong, he would crash out on his teammates. And you could see it on film. He doesn't do any of that now. And it's a lot of like, hey man, it's good. I'm the leader here. Like, it's just, it's honestly very cool to me to see a player, like, take that sort of maturity. And you can see it in the way he plays and the way that this team is functioning.

Like, it's just, it's honestly really cool for me to see. It's super early to have this conversation. But I'm curious your thoughts about this. How well does he need to play for them to get to April next year with a top five pick and think, we can maybe go another direction? Like, do you think that's even on the table? As much as it's been a pleasant. surprise how adult they have felt on offense.

Is that probably taking it too far in your mind? Probably only insofar as like if you have a top five pick, you are probably going to get a chance to have a quarterback prospect who has a little bit more to them than maybe Spencer Rattler does. And like from a height weight speed perspective is going to have more than Spencer Rattler does. And so from that perspective, I would get it. But like he, I've already said it. He to me is like a top 70.

Like he's already like a top 20. quarterback right now. And like I know that that's not like a super sexy thing to be. But if you add that on top of like if we get him to play a little bit more, you think about his arm talent, you think about the development he's already made as a pocket manager. I think if they end up to a spot where they lose so many games, they have a top five pick. He's probably not going to hold on to the job. But I really would not be surprised if he gets another shot a little bit later in his career to see if he can prove it. Because I really do think that he is capable. I think that's a good place to land where it's like okay even if based on way the how things are progressing for the saints and the

trajectory they'll likely see over the next couple years they'll probably be in position to draft a quarterback and that probably is the right choice for them in this moment but that doesn't mean i'm not at least intrigued by what the next three or four years of spencer ratler might look like i think i think that's i'm comfortable landing in that spot he's he's going to get a chance somewhere if it's new orleans if it's not i don't know but he somebody will give him a chance you know who somebody should just pick up the phone right now Right. If the Bengals should just trade for Spencer Rattler right now and just see how it's going. I mean, they probably should. If they want to, I mean, a guy who can do a little something, try some stuff out.

It's, you know. My brother brought this up to me on Saturday and we were hanging out. I want to say somebody mentioned it in the Discord when Dave was in there yesterday. But I'm totally open to the idea of Roger Goodell pulling like a reverse David Stern and just coming in and being like, the Bengals need to trade for a quarterback. Like we, there's so many games that they're playing in prime time over the rest of the year. It's the football watching audience should not have to endure this. I don't even care about like where the Bengals finish in the standings, but they have enough primetime games and just think about how many fantasy. And I know yesterday there was a decent amount of garbage time for Jamar Chase and even for T. Higgins. But think about how many fantasy teams across America are just dying

on the vine because we're having to endure this Jake Browning experience. Like how many more people would be engaged, invested, and happy with the NFL season if we just bring. We just brought in James to chuck it 55 times to the Bengals past catchers. Like, I truly do think this would be for the greater good and that we should have a conversation about whether or not somebody should step in and make it happen. We need a true slot machine quarterback, whereas like Jake Browning really is not that because the good is not good enough for that to work, whereas at least with James, you might get enough like, hmm, that could be really fun.

I also think there would be something to just having any fresh face in Cincinnati, which could be fun. I've been trying to get Tanner McKee a starting job for like three years now. They should be calling. I mean, just see what that looks like. Here's the problem. Let me roll another fantasy football thing out there. There's always going to be somebody in your league that's like a real asshole to deal with

when it comes to like trade negotiations where you ask for something at a reasonable price and the guy's like, I want 10 times that. If the Bengals call the Eagles right now and ask for Tanner McKee, how he'd be like, yeah, he's available. I want two twos. It's probably not even worth picking up the phone to do that. That's a good point. Especially for another in theory contender, he's probably like, you don't get that.

That sounds happening. Yeah, I would be very surprised if he was available at a price the Bengals were willing to pay. James, I think that's a slightly different conversation. I think that could be like a mid-round pick that in order to salvage both their season and the experience of the football watching public, it might be a price worth paying. And I'm more than comfortable with Roger Goodell pulling like a reverse Chris Paul situation here because I think a lot of us would benefit if somebody stepped in and did that. We're going to take one more quick break and then we're going to come back with a couple of your

voicemails. It's time for Monday morning. It's Monday morning time. Every Sunday as the games are rolling kind of winding down, we solicit your calls. If you had a tough Sunday, if you're going through something, we are here to try to help you through it. And I, based on what Bellar told me, there was no shortage of options last night because there was plenty of pain to be had across the NFL in week five. Bellar, what's our first one here?

Well, let's try to help some people out. Hey, Robert. It's Andrew from Baltimore. And I am calling about the abysmal Ravens. I am usually not a reactionary fan. I'm usually a very patient fan. I believe in stability. I think that John Harbaugh is a really good coach.

but it's time. That was embarrassing today. The team looked deflated. They looked lost. They looked undisciplined. They looked uninterested. They just didn't really seem to care. You couldn't blame the injuries, but it wasn't the injuries out there today.

They just looked lost. And unfortunately, I think the hardball era should come to an end. I'm not sure if it will, but it feels like time. I mean, you could try and tweak the coordinators or whatever, but it starts at the top and my heartbreak to say it, but time to hit the reset button in Baltimore. I think that's a little bit,

a little hasty. They were the best team in football like eight months ago. Like I don't, I get it though. I get it though. I think if I were actually trying to bring the Ravens conversation to a logical but still painful place, I think it would go back to some of the things that I was saying before the season started.

I think it was my what's keeping me up and I'd about the Ravens when we were doing the AFC North preview and my answer to that was has your best shot with this group already come and gone? And that's a scary thing to admit but this is the reason

that you say something like that. Last year they were one of the healthiest teams we'd ever seen according to adjusted games lost, right? They were, everything came up Ravens when it comes to the things that need to fall into place for you to win a championship. And they didn't do it.

And so now, just based on luck and variance and all of those things that play into an NFL season, things are probably going to go worse for you this year. And instead of going slightly worse, this has become the team that is just having the season from hell. And so that's the tough place to be if you're a Ravens fan. I think the staff has done a good enough job for a long enough period of time.

And I think that they've iterated and changed enough over that period of time that they deserve to see whatever the next step of this is through. I think when you are a team, you're a fan of a team that keeps getting close

and keeps falling short and you want change. I think that viewpoint is more justified when the team keeps trying the same things over and over again and failing. I'd be more willing to hear that from a Bills fan based on how they

construct and trot out their defense than I would with the ravens because the ravens have consistently shown an ability to pivot when they start running into a wall on either side of the ball. And if you want to make the argument that it's the voice is falling on dead ears and that's the biggest problem, I guess I can understand that if the effort continues to go this way, but they've been too good too recently for me to believe that everyone there is just checked out on John Harbaugh. So while this is extremely frustrating because now you're just going to sit there and look at the teams you had over the last couple years and lament the lost opportunity, I still feel

like this team has done a good enough job evolving and problem solving over the last decade that this group deserves their shot to figure this out. I agree. And like with, yeah, wasting a year of Lamar Jackson playing at this level feels bad. And I totally get that him and his prime all that. But like this to me does feel like more like bad luck. And maybe there is some stuff. with the Harbar era that is like, but even I don't believe, because like what you're saying

with they've done such a good job of constantly iterating. That's why I don't feel like, I think sometimes when a coach is there for eight, 10 years, things can start to get stale. But I've never felt that with Baltimore. It's always been, they've changed to new types of coordinators, new offenses obviously with bringing in Todd Monkin, like, they've always been on the forefront of how do we want to change our personnel to refit this new team? Like, they've, even going all the way back to like the Joe Flacco era, they ran like three or four different kinds of offenses with him. Like, they've just, and defenses. And defenses.

Yeah. Like, they've just always done a good job of being on the, you know, spinning the wheel and making sure that we're moving things along. And so this to me does not feel stale. This to me feels like maybe going into the year, they were a little bit more flawed than we thought in the trenches. And so that started some of this. And then you just seven of your best players get hurt.

And again, maybe some of that is falling on deaf ears now that they're, I think probably know that they're not the team that they want to be. But I just, I don't know how. many coaches in the league could really get when you are missing this many of your best players to really go and play their best ball? I think this is good. I think trying to extricate the struggles they were having from the injuries is important because I don't want to just explain away with the first five weeks of the Raven season

have looked like based solely on injury. They could not run the ball on their own terms for the first four months. And the offensive line just was not playing at the same level it was last year. And I think it led to just an erratic feel to the offense overall. and I think you felt Lamar playing a lot more panicky than he did last year while playing at his best. And so you drop a game in Buffalo, you should lose or you should have won. And then you lose to a chief's team that is a good team, right? So you lose to the Chiefs and the Lions, those are the two games you lose.

And then you give a game away against the bill. So you probably should be two and two. And then hopefully you can kind of figure out some of this stuff over the course of the year because you still have a lot of really good players, even if it's going to be a little bit of a journey. Well, now you start off one and three, and you don't even give yourself a shot to figure it out because of all of the injuries. So the one and three start was not because they were hurt, but the one and three start puts you in such a hole that now the injuries completely derail the rest of your season. Like you don't even give yourself a chance to bounce back because you're so hurt.

And so there's a lot of stuff going on. It's not just the guys that are injured, but the guys now being as injured as they are just completely robs you of the chance to solve these problems over the course of an entire season. And the last thing I would say with how successful the Harbaugh era has been and with how well that they've consistently moved this thing along, I would rather be a year late in firing him than a year early and like being a little bit reactionary. And so if they do this again next year and there's some sort of issue where they just can't put themselves together, fine. Then we can have that conversation. But like one kind of unlucky year, given all of the equity that he's built up, I'm I'm okay with how things are going. Same. All right, Bo. What's our next one here? dejected cards fan here. I used the Royal Wee. I've been a fan for forever, but like this meltdown was the most Cardinals thing ever.

Like there's no way we're better than any team in the league, no matter what kind of a lead we have. They will always find a way to come back, whether it's like Carolina or the Titans. That puts us in like the bottom 10, right? Like you can be optimistic about talent and coaching and all of that,

but if we can't ever like be ahead of the game and stay in front of stuff, I just don't know what to think is a card stand other than time to maybe think about moving on beyond Tyler Murray, try to think of maybe a new way to move on. I don't know. If you think about, I'm asking you this, Derek, if you think about where this Cardinals team is right now and if it continues at this pace until the end of the year, where do you think the biggest changes would need to happen? like do you think the roster is like deeply flawed in a way where it's like okay even the people in charge of putting this together we should move on from them or do you feel like this is like a coaching and application issue more than it is a roster talent issue

i think this is a very unsatisfying answer but it feels like a little bit of everything to me is just not quite up to their level like the roster building i don't think is terrible but i still come away very underwhelmed with all the the offensive line issues i think they didn't want to come out of this off season, not adding anyone else to the offense, but that's where they ended up. And I still think that that is something, if they really wanted to have changed, they could have. And they had the resources to do that. And then I think they add all this stuff on defense. And the defense is better. But this still does not feel to me like an ass kicking unit that that is maybe up to the level of what they've spent on it now. And so add that on top of like, do you have what is supposed to be a defensive coach? Like I think they should be a little bit better on that side. And then again, we've done this 100 times with Kyler Murray where we know how talented is.

We know what the best games look like. But you kind of still get too many of the lows for him and too much of the inconsistent games. And I think that that has been a little bit of an issue where I think I mentioned this on a show before. Teams often can rally around whatever their quarterback is or whatever their head coach is. And neither of them feel to me like they have a strong enough personality or holding in this league for this team to do that right now. I think that that is kind of the issue. Also, I mean, they're just so banged up in the secondary right now. I think you're really feeling that, which is a problem.

The fact that Garrett Williams is hurt, the fact that Will Johnson has missed a couple of games, Max Melton is now banged up. I think you're really feeling the depth they've had to dig into, even before the season started. Starling Thomas is somebody who had played a ton of snaps for them at corner over the last couple of years. He's on IR, so he's going to miss the entire season. So the defense has not been at full strength. And so I think that's why maybe giving them a little bit of grace,

worth it. Offensively, it's interesting because I think there were moments this year, and I think that the Walter Nolan, who again, he also hasn't played, the Walter Nolan and Will Johnson picks are indicative of a team that is trying to push itself over the line. Right? Like, we're going to make things, we're going to make moves that are

a little bit riskier because we feel like we need to find these difference making players. We've built the floor of this team. Now let's raise the ceiling. So I think on that front, you saw a team that was willing to maybe compromise in the way that they were trying to build this thing in ways they weren't in earlier years. But at the same time, I think that they were really steadfast in their commitment to seeking out value when it came to adding pieces to the offense. We've talked about this. They didn't plan on not adding any guys to the offense. I think that's just kind of the way the offseason fell where certain players at certain positions, whether it's interior offensive linemen.

receiver, they just didn't feel like the price was worth it, either in free agency or the draft. It's like, we're going to take Jordan Birch in the third round because we think Jordan Birch is a better player than the guys who are available here. And over a long period of time, thinking that way is probably going to benefit you. But that lack of urgency on offense left you with the same group of players and then losing your offensive coordinator has really robbed the engine of what made this offense go when the personnel wasn't perfect over the last couple years. And so I think it's just a bunch of different stuff kind of contributing here to this team really being disappointing in which should have been the season where they really started to show us that they

were ready to be competitive. And I just don't really know what to do with that, right? I don't think that they've made like a ton of egregious mistakes when it comes to building the roster, but I think that the path they took this year and the consequences of that path have kind of been laid in front of us in a way that is just really underwhelming, right? Like, you just watch the offense and it's just like, oh, man, like every single fear we had about how this could go is unfortunately being realized right now. And that's almost one of my like, you know, we kind of joked about this, I think, uh, on the preview show going in like, was there a world where they promoted Clayton Adams

and let pets and go and like this is all looks a little bit different and they actually are much more put together offense? I don't know. And like should they have done that? Who knows? Like, this just, I think to me, I mean, that's the thing. Like that's the thing. Like it's such a weird.

Like a top 12 offense each of the last like three years. Like the staff overall had done a really good job on offense until this year. And I think that maybe you're just realizing like how important Clayton Adams was to that process. And also just we've talked about stuff before of like when you're not adding anything. And I think this is especially true of offensive lines. Like you can just a couple of bad things don't go your way. and offensive lines can get really stinky, really fast. And I think that we've seen that a little bit with the Cardinals this year.

And I think with Kyler Murray specifically, he is one of those quarterbacks that I think you want to protect him a little bit from himself in the sense of how do we getting cleaner down in distances. So he doesn't feel like he has to be the throw the ball 45 times, run around and do crazy stuff all the time. I think that's how you get the inconsistency of him. Last year, they were obviously very good at that. This year, they have not been so good at that.

And I think you add that on top of a weird Marvin Harrison Jr. game. not really having that many secondary past catchers. It's just they've struggled to find ground to stand on as an offense. I think there will be changes for this team next year. I just don't know what those changes will or should look like. That's where I said five weeks in. Like, is it a new quarterback? Is it a new coaching staff?

Is it a new front office? Because if they fall short, I think that there are going to be some hard questions that have to be answered. I just don't know what those answers should look like right now. I think that we'll gain a lot more information as the season continues to roll along. Is it Spencer Rattley? All right. Beller had like one more that he wanted to throw in here here before we get out. Bellar, one more one more set of voicemails here before we finish this thing off.

Yeah, and a quick bit of context here. We got two callers on this one who are feeling some things about the same team. So I just wanted to get them together so we could get through this. It's a good one. Here we go. I'm a name's Peter from Scotland, via New York, where I currently live. And I called last week during the emotional Dolphins game as a Jets fan and just thought, this is miserable, how can I get any worse?

And then this week it got worse. And I think back often to when I tell US NFL fans that I'm with the NFL fans, and I'm with the NFL fans, and they're like, what team? And I'm like the Jets. And the most common refrain I get is why. who's the first time in 15 years, more than that 17 years, that I find myself also asking the question of like, why? Why do we do this start ourselves?

Why, as jazz fans, we hear, again? Like, again. I'm a fucking Jets fan, unfortunately. This might be the new low, a team that I've suffered through for my entire fucking life of dealing with awful quarterback draft fix awful coaching decisions

the worst owner in sports in North America it goes on and on and on but that loss to the Cowboys might be the worst out of all of them they should fire everybody and start a like a

the fucking Keanu Reeves team so this fan wants just a replacement's answer for the current state of the New York Jets I I try to see a little bit of the over the lining when we get these calls. I try to put people in a decent headspace that are struggling in these moments. I have nothing for Jets fans.

We talked about it yesterday. Like, it is as bad as it looks. And I completely understand the level of frustration that you're feeling. Like, I think that you have to tap in just like some very basic things as a fan to get through whatever this is. Like, who do you watch the games with? Do you watch them with friends? Do you watch them with family?

even the very act of like spending three hours engaged with something that has long meant something to you, like your personal history with it, all of that kind of stuff. Like that's how deep we're having to dig with the Jets right now. And why I think I'm capable of offering like an empathetic and sympathetic voice here is that I've had to do this as well. Like there have been stretches as a Chicago Bears fan over the last like five or so years where you're sitting there wondering like, why do we do this to ourselves? And sometimes you have to reach far, far back for one of those answers. But you'll probably find one if you do that.

And so I'm not going to pretend that this is not awful and that it's not worth being completely despondent right now if you root for this team. Because like we said last night, this was supposed to feel different. But there's an answer somewhere. I think you just got to go back and try to find it. I think it's hard. I think what's so frustrating about it too is not that the offense is good, but they at least have their moments in the way that you thought they might. And that was probably the side of the ball you didn't have that much faith in.

The defense being as bad as it is when you hire Aaron Glenn, who did such a good job with Detroit, you think, okay, if we shake up the defense again, surely we'll get our DBs to tackle. And surely everyone will be in the right area. And they just none of that. And I think you saw that exposed against the Cowboys more than any other team. I mean, right now on an EPA per play basis, the only defense is worse than the Jets are the Dallas Cowboys, which we've seen what Russell Wilson and Caleb Williams and all these other teams did to them.

They're a fake defense. The Miami Dolphins who have not been very good and the Baltimore Ravens who have like three of their players. And even with all those other teams from a pure like overall watching how this team feels perspective. Until last week you had at least Lamar Jackson was playing quarterback for the Baltimore Ravens. The dolphins are a weird team, but they have some fun players on offense and can. score points. And DAC is playing like a top 10 quarterback again. Like there's at least something to tune in for.

When the Jets have the ball, you're hoping Justin Fields makes one cool play. And that's it. Listen, there's not a lot right now. There's not a lot of bright spots to be found. But I wish I had something cheeryer to say to Jets fans after the first five weeks. I unfortunately do not. All right. That's all we've got for today.

Got another full slate coming your guys way this week. If you're listening to this on Tuesday, our Monday night football recap will be available in your YouTube feed. Right now, encourage you guys to go check that out. Chiefs Jag should be a good one. Looking forward to that conversation for now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.