The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 8 Hangover: Ravens and Texans grind out critical wins; Bucs take firm control of the NFC South

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

It's safe to say that the first half of the 2025 season hasn't gone exactly as the Ravens or Texans drew it up. Yet after big wins for both teams in Week 8, they remain firmly in the mix as we turn toward November. The Buccaneers, meanwhile, are putting real distance between themselves and the rest of the NFC South, despite all their injuries. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dig into Bears-Ravens, 49ers-Texans and Saints-Buccaneers on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. They also do what they can to console sad Steelers and Vikings fans in the latest edition of Monday Mourning.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:50 Ravens take down Bears without Lamar Jackson34:51 Texans offense comes to life in win over 49ers53:11 Saints bench Spencer Rattler in loss to Buccaneers1:03:30 Monday Mourning: Why should Steelers fans even care?Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. It's the week eight hangover today, hitting three games with Derek Klasson, started with the Bears and the Ravens. Spent a lot of time on this one, which I guess shouldn't be surprising. Dug into the state of the Bears' offense, what we're seeing from Caleb Williams right now, really sat in that discussion for quite a while. Also chatted about the performance from the Texans offense, who had their best day in a very long time against the Niners yesterday,

and then dug into Saints' Bucks with a pretty heavy focus on the, the Saints quarterback decision, how they arrive there, what it really means, and what we might expect from Tyler Shuck here over the rest of the season. Let's get to it with Derek right now. Week 8 hangover on the athletic football show, like we always do on these Monday shows. We're going to break it down three games that we did not get to on the recap show last night, plus taking a couple of your phone calls. We've got a lot of fun stuff to dig into today. Like even in a game that would typically be a throwaway game, we had a quarterback change that will have to chew on a little bit for New Orleans.

And then obviously, I don't think we've ever done a Bears game in one of these. And like the multiple years I've done the hangover. So that's going to be a fun experience. We're about to dig into here. And then the Texans had a big day on offense a week after they were not functional on that side of the ball. And so I feel like there's some meaty topics on this version of the hangover. There are.

I was actually, I'm really excited. Like just digging into this batch of games is maybe the most fun I've had with all of them. Because yeah, even Buck Saints, which one should be. the throwaway theoretically of this group, but also we've done the Saints a million times. Even this Saints game is technically more interesting than a number of the other ones we've talked about. So I'm pretty good on this bunch. Are we starting or ending with your Bears therapy session? I think we have to start with it. I think it would be disingenuous and cowardly for us to start anywhere else. I think this is the first game that we have to dig into. So let's start. Where do you

want to begin with the discussion about this Bears Ravens game? I mean, I'm more embarrassed by the defense, letting Tyler Huntley do that to them. So like, do we want to, want to start there? I mean, we can't start there. What a ridiculous place to start considering the amount of Caleb Williams discourse it's currently happening. If you want to circle back to the Caleb conversation at the end of this, that's acceptable. Yes, we will. That's the thing is I want to get what is probably an easier thing to talk about

kind of out of the way that. So I think we can have a more full discussion about Caleb and not feel like anything else is hanging over us. The defense for, here's the thing. The secondary looking bad, of course they looked bad. didn't have anybody playing. Like this was all of their backup guys, especially at corner. Like they had their safeties, but their corner room was a bunch of guys that should not have been starting and we're not starting like week one and stuff like that. The front was where I kind of started to draw the line.

Like I thought the Ravens actually pushed them around in some moments. And there were a couple back and forth where the Bears guys had their moments. But this was the best I thought the Ravens offensive line has looked and their run game moving people like, for he's had a couple of moments. Like I just, they were able to move people in a way that. I did not think that they were going to be able to. And maybe part of that is you have Huntley now in the lineup, who is at least some sort of run threat,

whereas Cooper Rush certainly is not. But still, for them to be able to actually move people around, given that has been their issue all game, pretty concerning for the Bears run, I thought. The Bears defense is not very good. I mean, I think we've pretty comfortably come to that conclusion. There just are not a lot of true difference makers on that side of the ball. When they're not taking the ball away, you feel that it's not a very dynamic group,

especially up front. I mean, the secondary went healthy coming into the season, especially when Jalen Johnson was supposed to play. That was supposed to be the strength of this team. And you were hoping to get by everywhere else, especially up front. I mean, even the guys that they added this off season, your Grady Jarrett style O'Dangbos, those are supposed to be like functional solid starters for you, right? Like you're paying a premium for O'Dangbo because he's a second contract player in free agency. He got a lot of money, but that's just the nature of those kinds of guys in free agency.

like Tershoun Wharton got a lot of money. Bobby Brown got a decent amount of money. Like if you're a second contract player along the defensive line, that cupboard is pretty bare. You're going to get overpaid. They weren't bringing in anybody this offseason that was supposed to be like a true difference maker up front. It was can we get a rotation of five, six, seven guys

where this is a solid group. And right now it just doesn't even feel like that. Like this group up front, combined with the play at linebacker, there just aren't a lot of guys that you can get really excited. excited about. That's the other thing I wanted to mention was to play at linebacker. It's we can like the run game. I think they have been up and down all year. Like Edmonds goes through these spurts where he's just kind of a little bit lost, especially in between the tackles. My biggest issue was one, there was a play on the big Keaton Mitchell toss to the left. First of all, Nashon right does a really bad job of holding the edge as a corner, but that's a whole separate discussion. But Edwards is trying to get to the sideline and just doesn't have the juice to get there. And like he has the right angle and he just can't get over the top and get there. My bigger issue though was like, coverage. I just feel like they're spacing and knowing where they

need to be and giving up space in the routes. Like I just don't love it. Like there was a play where the Ravens had they were running like a little bit of like a short over crossing route and then they had run the dig behind it. And so Edmonds gets run off by the crossing route. That's fine. He's like getting under it. That's the you know, roboting under

it. Totally fine. But Edwards is the strong hook player and he gives like no presence to get under the dig route. He's playing so close to the line of scrimmage and so far that it's like for any quarterback, even a backup quarterback like Tyler Huntler, it's the easiest throw in the world. And they just give up way too many of those it feels like right now.

Yeah, I mean, there were a couple chunks off play action that were very easily available to the Ravens in this game. They had like the 21 personnel under center play action at some point, I think early in the second quarter where there's like no way Sewell or Edwards are getting under that with the depth that they need. There were a couple of those plays where there's just no presence in the middle of the field. And then to me, it's just a lack of pass rush throughout this entire.

game despite bringing extra bodies at the problem. Like the drive that was very indicative of this to me was the one early in the second quarter where the Ravens are behind the sticks. They have a second and 22. And on that drive, the bears send like a nickel blitz and run cover three behind it. And even with a nickel coming off of the right side, Huntley has enough time to find Bateman on like a 15-yard comeback on the left side. So then it's third and seven.

And then on the ensuing third and seven, the bears run a simulated pressure where they bring Jaquan Brisker off the edge and they drop Montez sweat into be the hook player on the right side of the offense. And Zay Flowers is just sitting there at the sticks and they complete it. And so it's second and 22 and you have those two very easy completions while you're bringing additional bodies at the quarterback. And the Ravens seem totally unbothered by it. And that's kind of where this team is right now.

Like it looks good when you're playing against the Saints and Kyle Gordon is playing and you have all these DB pressures and you're doing all this funky stuff. but against real teams, you're not going to be able to live that way. And that clearly has to be what they're trying to do to get after the quarterback because they can't do it normally. Yeah. And the sweat one was frustrating because, like, he doesn't really know where he's looking at and like where the receivers are coming from. And part of that is like, sure, player mistake, but also like, why are you asking Montez Sweat to do that? Like, I just, that is not what a 280 pound type of defensive end should really be doing very often.

I just don't think they have any idea what they want to be on that side of the ball. And obviously that's compounded when you have none of your starting corners and you're having to work through that the entire game. And that shows up in this game, right? Like there are plenty of moments where whether it's Makoud or Nayshan Wright or Jalen Jones, like they just have no shot against Zayflowers or even a Rashad Bateman. But the front should still be a group that you at least feel over the course of the game, considering how much money you've pumped into this unit overall. Like these are guys, so many of them you have spent on. Montez-Swed was a second round pick. You paid him $25 million a year.

Dangball you signed in free agency. Grady Jerry you signed in free agency. T.J. Edwards and Tremany and Edmins are guys that you have paid big money to. And the fact that that group is kind of decidedly below average when you watch them right now. That is a disappointing place to land when you consider how this unit was supposed to be built and what they wanted to be on that side of the ball. But that's just the reality of the situation as it currently stands. And it's like all those guys, they've paid a premium for guys that like are one rung below what they paid for, which obviously when you're trading for a lot of players, that's going to happen. But like, Monta Sweat is a great player.

Ideally, to me, he's more like what Roshan Gary is, where he's a really good number two for you, which the Packers realized with their guys, like, we should go get a number one. Dioa Dangbo, I think is like can be a very good number three and like good run stuffer. He's your number two now. Like they just, their rotation is like they could use one more guy to bump everybody down. But now they really can't because they've already over leveraged themselves in terms of how much they've spent at that position. Yeah. And I think that was the problem with the Montes Sweat deal at the beginning is that it was, they had a nice little bump in the first few games that he played.

But you really have to wait and be patient and how you're going to judge those moves because it's not about what happens in the first three or four games after he gets there. You just traded a second round pick and gave the guy a massive extension. I hope that he has some semblance of an impact. But when you think about the opportunity cost that goes into a move like that and the fact that Montes Sweat is a good player but not a great player and then you think about what they paid for him and, just kind of the cascading effect that has for the rest of the group, you feel that pretty much every single time you watch this Bears front play right now. Like if the DBs aren't getting pressure, they're not really getting pressure, and that's not a good place to live. That's no way to play a defense. So let's get to the other side of the ball. And let's talk about kind of the state of

the Bears offense at this point. I, this is another one of those games where it's frustrating, but not panic worthy, in my opinion. And I think that's where I sit. with it. We can get into some of the nuances around that. But when you watch this performance from the offense and from the quarterback specifically from the Bears, where do you land on what you saw on Sunday? I just need everybody to like breathe watching and talking about this offense. Like I, he was not perfect. And like even Ben Johnson said that in some of his talks today like on the radio like Caleb was not perfect. But he, I to me still think that he's playing fine. I think people are going to see the interception. And the interception is bad and does ring a lot of the alarm bells that I don't.

do think are still some persistent issues in his game. Like he's, Ramadunzei is running like this dig cross a route from the left hand side. And Caleb should know that he gets to the top of your drop. If you want it, you throw it immediately because otherwise, once the receiver starts to flatten out, the corner is going to start to flatten out and be able to accelerate and get under it.

Caleb waits an extra hitch, throws it a little bit late. Corner is able to accelerate and get under it and pick it off. Caleb should know that when he takes that moment of hesitation, I should either bail, I should check it down. I should do anything but throw that route late over the middle of the field. He does it, throws the pick.

Otherwise, though, I thought Caleb mostly played fine. Like, you didn't see that many of the misfires that he's had in other games. He had a third and I think it was seven in the red zone very early in the game where it gets completely blocked up over the middle. He bailes to his right and is able to find O'Dunzee. Had a number of other good, like great ripped throws outside of the numbers. Like, that really is, I think, his kind of calling card. Like, I think even Ben Johnson has done a good job scheming some of that up.

with some of their just like max protect stuff. So I thought this was like, again, I think we're just really want Caleb to be the immediate superstar because first overall pick, all the generational stuff. I think he played fine in this game and had one big mistake against the Ravens defense that is getting healthier and actually looks like kind of decent the last handful of weeks.

Yeah, we'll talk about the Ravens because I do think that's worth mentioning, especially some individual performances from guys on that side of the ball. I mostly agree with you. And I just think a lot of the same things can take. to be frustrating. And I think that's what is getting to me a little bit, is that you watch him play. And I do think that there were probably three, four, five misses in this game that are of the same variety that we've seen from him really over the course of the year. The one to the middle was the one big one to me that was like, at that you can't miss that one.

And I think there were a couple of those, right? And so on that same drive, on that drive late in the first quarter where he misses Rome on that third and seven crosser, on a third and six, he misses him again before that, but they get bailed out because of an illegal contact fuck. And so there are times, this is anecdotal, but it seems to me, honestly, where, I mean, it happens, I think whenever he's not playing completely in rhythm, that's when you see some of these misses happen. And sometimes it's when he's sped up, right? When he's sped up and every once in a while when he has to get rid of the ball quicker than he he wants to, you see some of these sprays.

But in this game, there were a couple of those moments where when he gets to actually take another beat in the pocket and he kind of sits at the top of his drop, that's another area where sometimes you see him leave it a little bit high or leave a little bit outside. And so it just feels like whenever he's not totally in rhythm, we see some of these inaccuracy issues. And it continues to be an issue. And like, I just don't know how or when that gets better. Like, can you remember somebody that had three, four, five of these a game, which that's about where we're at right now. There is a handful of them every single game. And not to one specific area of the field, right?

So the one that the example I would come back to if I were like a hopeful Bears fan is that even in his second year, Josh Allen had a lot of issues with accuracy throwing the ball down the field. He did a very good job of starting to hone the intermediate area of the field in his second year in 2019. But whenever they tried to push the ball down the field, they rarely were successful. And that's something he was aware of and he was kind of consciously working on. but it was kind of isolated. This is not necessarily isolated. He does still have problems pushing the ball down the field accurately. But the fact that we're still missing a handful of these intermediate throws pretty much every single week,

I just don't know how many positive examples there are of somebody with this sort of issue working through this sort of issue to a positive conclusion. Can you think of anyone? Jordan loved the first eight games of his first season was, I think, a lot like this where he was just kind of missing throws. But also like Jordan, I think that was. also just like a different situation in some ways. This is just a different kind of player. Yes, exactly. And like Jordan Love was missing by virtue of sometimes just like,

I think he was trying to do the hardest thing on the field all the time and sometimes was just like trying to find the line of how to do it. Caleb just kind of misses, which like if there's anything that I find like legitimately really frustrating about him, it is that. Some of the more like him being a little bit late on stuff or every now and then when he gets like knocked off his rhythm, can he get a little bit sped up? stuff is like I think that can come with time and just getting more comfortable like learning what

your plan B is all that sort of stuff but the just straight up missing guys that part really does frustrate me and it's mostly to the intermediate area like he misses some downfield shots and that's fine but like one to 10 I don't really feel like he has that issue it's once he starts pushing it a little bit more over the middle of the field there are times when he's throwing like those quick now screens to the perimeter where he'll just throw one of the guys feet there are screens where he'll have some of these inaccuracy issues. But that's my problem. And I'm kind of with you.

Like when I watch the interception, that's a play where it's like, we just have to be better than that. Like we are eight games in to season number two. So we're talking about like almost 25 starts now. I understand it's a new system. I understand it's complex. I understand there's a lot you're working through.

That's one of those moments. And you explained it perfectly. When you watch that play unfold, too often we do this where we're going to go back and we're going to retrofell. a mistake that a quarterback made in real time and we're going to circle a guy when the video was stopped and say, why aren't you throwing it to this guy?

This is a scenario where that is perfectly legitimate because when he hits the top of his drop, as soon as that ball does not come out, that hit should take you to the checkdown. Like, it's exactly how the timing of the play is supposed to work. It's wide open. And Manangai gets there in the exact timing where when you hit that first hitch and it's not there,

it's you hitch. You come back and your eyes should take you to the checkdown. Like, that's the rhythm of the play. And not only does he not throw it, he throws it late and inaccurately over the middle of the field. He leaves it inside because he feels Marlon Humphrey sitting there. The only reason that Humphrey is even a part of the play is because he threw it late. And so everything that happens in that moment is 100% on him.

And so that needs to get better. But I think you can make an argument that with more time, that stuff can get better. The problem for me is when you're combining it with, some of these sprays every single week, that's where I get a little bit worried. And I also just think this is, and, you know, we talk about the intentional groundings. And there are moments for me when I watch him play where his just lack of situational awareness is a little bit concerning to me where, like, I just feel like there is like a scattered

kind of frantic nature to the way that he plays. And there just is not an awareness of where he is on the field and what should be happening in that moment. like not getting out of bounds on that scramble at the end of the first half. That's not like a deal breaker, but that's one of those where like, you probably should know that you can just duck out of bounds on that play. And you probably should just duck out of bounds on that play. It's a small thing.

But when you combine it with everything else that started to pile up, it's just one of those where it's like, man, I just don't know how much of this gets considerably better over time. That one, I'm willing to let him be a young player. Like, it is frustrating that he does have these moments where he's, a little bit jittery, like when it's a little bit, you know, late off his rhythm or in this situational stuff. But like, again, there, to me, like, Sam Darnold was like this early in his career. Baker Mayfield was early, like, in this, his career. And that took the moments of, like,

having to move on. But like, Caleb is one more talented than those guys and has shown way more positives than those guys early did in their career. So, like, he should get the runway to do this with the coaching staff and team that he has in a way those guys didn't. I don't think we're, there's no argument for me about the runway, right? I think this is, we're eight games in with a new system and a new staff and everything else. Like, we're not putting a period at the end of any sort of sentence here. I think there are just frustrations that have started to creep up.

And I think the point you're making about Darnold is very good. And it's one of the guys I would keep coming back to where it's like these guys that are hyper talented that maybe lack a little bit of feel early in their careers, let's let them figure it out because the reward waiting on the other end of this is potentially monstrous. The problem is Sam Darnold didn't have those sprays early in his career. Sam Darnold was never really an inaccurate quarterback. The issue with Sam Donald was some of this feel stuff that we're talking about. And so my issue is you're combining some of the feel for the position, feel for the timing stuff that we're discussing here with some of those inaccuracy concerns.

and so both of them coming from two different directions, that's what leaves me a little bit frustrated. And if not, a little bit frustrated and a tad worried at this point. I'm not freaking out. I'm not sounding any alarms. But at this stage, you watch a game like that and you just wish it was a little bit better. I mean, I agree. It should be a little bit better.

Like, again, the misses are really frustrating. And the fact that especially contrasted to like Drake May and Jane Daniels, who were drafted in the same class and like have such a different calm about them in a lot of these scenarios, I think is very frustrating. And especially with Drake May, where he's like same age as Caleb, like played the same amount of time as Caleb or, you know, Jaden Daniels, I think had a lot more experience. So maybe that's a little bit different. But I think that can be frustrating.

But ultimately, like, this is the frantic thing part of his game. I want to give him like one more year before that is something I get freaked out about. The accuracy, though, is the continued part of his game. That really does frustrate me. I think a lot of the stuff they did off play action was really good in this game. I think that those plays specifically really allow him to rip those balls to the intermediate area of the field. There was the one he had on the corner route to Rome at the end of the third quarter. That's like exactly the type of player you want to see him be.

Rome is running a corner to the right side. They have a little flat controller to that side. It's cover two. He does a fantastic job of just giving like a little bit of a shoulder to the flat. That guy steps up. He has the window. And just in rhythm on time, all in one motion, rips that throw to Rome on the. outside. It's like you see those moments and it's hard not to continue to talk yourself into this because

of what those look like. And on the same drive, he checks into that screen to DeAndre Swift on third down, knowing that they had been bringing all this pressure of the entire game. And so it's like, all right, just those moments are still there. Can you just start stacking those? And what does this ultimately look like if we start trying to minimize a little bit of the inaccuracy in some of the negative plays and we see some more of this? I just don't know at what point that becomes delusion. I just don't know at one point, at what point, it's just not logical to continue to talk yourself into the highs and ignore the lows. I think if he's playing, the first thing I would say is that like I still think even with all the vacillations, like he's still a perfectly fine quarterback. Like I don't think he's bad in like losing them games.

And I think that that's an important starting point for a young quarterback. I would say if he's playing exactly like this in week eight next year, I'm going to start. having some issues. But I think like for the, for most of the remainder of this year, like, again, very difficult system for him to learn. The offensive line still, I think even though they had some okay moments in this game, is still like largely an issue. And for the most part, he, the past catcher thing, I think is a little bit complicated to untangle because I think he just has a weird chemistry with everyone but Romodunzee, which I don't know how much to blame for him. I don't know how much is at the system, the other players, whatever it is.

But it's still not a perfect system. I will say, with DJ is where you feel it the most. I mean, there's just like, there's very little timing connection with those two guys. I mean, the one big play they had in this game is a play made very much off schedule where he kind of makes like a desperation heave that is an incredibly impressive throw when you think about like the mechanics of the throw. But it's not the sort of play you want to live by. No, that was like, that was exactly my feeling seeing. That was like, I was like, wow, I bet only four other guys can make that throw. I don't think anyone should be trying to make that throw ever. Like it's just a really stupid and crazy thing to do, but it was cool that he was able to do it.

I will say, Ben Johnson even said today, I think talking with ESPN radio, like he said he watched the tape and felt more comfortable with this game than he did the previous two games, which again, coaches are just going to say stuff. But I think the fact that even with the intersection, I think you got to believe him at this point. Yeah, with him, his bullshit meter is not very good these days. It's not. Because in that same interview, by the way, he was like, yeah, I would like if somebody else in the locker room were a little. bit more held guys accountable for all of our penalties. So he has no qualms about saying whatever he truly feels. So I really did think it was nice that he came out and said like, you know, the tape looked better than I thought it felt coming off of the field, which is, I think, an encouraging sign. And that

was kind of how I felt like, watching it live Sunday, I was like, man, you see the pick. You see a couple of the other plays that are up and down. You see the intentional groundings. And you're like, Jesus, how bad did Caleb play? And I watched it back and there's still some frustrations. But I was like, you know what? For a young player still trying to learn this system, like, it wasn't a good day, but I'm also not really ringing any different or new alarms in this way. What do you make of the two grounding penalties? The first one is egregious. The second one, I like, I could not tell if he thought someone was supposed to be there.

Like, he threw that one so confidently. Like, he thought he thought somebody was running the eight yard out and was going to maybe be in that area. So I don't know if that was a miscommunication, whatever it was. Maybe he just looked really confident doing it. But the first one was bad. The second one, I'm like genuinely confused what happened. The first one is frustrating because you have the bodies to pick it up. So on that play, you have Hamilton and Roquan running a little bit of a pressure on the right side where Hamilton is picking.

I think it was the guard to that side. And Roquan is slicing back around on a little twist. And the left guard, I think it's Tooney, does not pick up. Whatever the communication is between Tooney and Swift on that play, they just let Hamilton go, even though he's the penetrator on the stunt. And so he comes in, Scott Free and Caleb gets rid of it. So that's the situation where you're not even, I don't even know if you're hot in that moment because you have the bodies to pick up that pressure. On the second one, you absolutely are. So Bennett on that play does not take the most, the furthest inside rusher.

He takes the nickel coming off the edge instead of Van Nuoy, which he probably should squeeze that. But it doesn't matter. He's hot either way because one of those guys is going to be unblocked. And so you should have some sort of hot answer there or you should change the protection. And so I don't know which is worse. the fact that he gets one on a play where they should have it picked up or he gets one on a play where he's supposed to be hot and there's no one to throw hot too.

I mean, they're both bad. It's just funny though because like the first one to me, like I felt like he could have at least had a shot to like move a little bit and try to get the ball past the line of scrimmage so it doesn't become a grounding. But the second one, like he does try to throw hot, but he's throwing to nobody. Like it's just a very confusing. I would say all day too, by the way, what you mentioned with the pick where they use Kyle Hamilton as the pick for Roquan to come over.

they did that stuff like that a number of times that day and the Reich really picked on that interior and did not let those guys feel comfortable. The line in this game did not play nearly as well as it had over the last couple weeks, especially on the ground. They really ran the ball at will over the past two weeks against Washington

and then against the Saints. And that just did not happen in this game. They had a 38% rushing success rate per next gen gen and you could just feel them not getting at not getting to the second level nearly as consistently as they were over the last couple of weeks. And then they just had some flubs. I mean, there's like a negative,

there's a negative three-yard run in the red zone where they just let Travis Jones go completely unblocked inside the five-yard line that torpedoes a drive. And so not being able to lean on the ground game and then putting yourself into those third and seven, third, nines where you get a couple of those intentional groundings. That was, to me, the biggest difference in what the offense felt like this week compared to what it felt like over the last couple weeks.

And there's a reason for that. So the Ravens, I was curious about this because it just felt like there were so many bodies crowded along the line of scrimmage watching this game. is the Ravens are a team that isn't usually afraid to play with light boxes. They've done it like 35% of the time this year. Weeks 1 through 7 per next gen, the Ravens play with light boxes on 36% of run plays. They played with loaded boxes, which is more defenders than blockers in the box on 32% of

plays. On Sunday, light boxes on 9% of runs, loaded boxes on 65% of runs. And so I think they're essentially. saying now, we don't give a shit. We think our secondary is good enough to hold up in single high and man coverage. We're not going to let you run the ball on us. And so I think that structural change, combined with the fact that Roquan Smith played like Roquan Smith on Sunday, you can start building a little bit of enthusiasm about what

the Ravens defense can be. And they're right. If their secondary is healthy, they can just run one on one with people like Wiggins is awesome. Humphrey's awesome. If Hamilton's going to be mostly your slot player, he's obviously incredible. Like they, and also mentioning the Roquan Smith thing too, it's not even just that he played great overall. Like to me, the, oh, Roquan Smith, his back moment was one, early like 10 minutes ago when I was talking that Caleb made that play where he rolled to his right and found Romadunze late in the play. It gets muddy because Rochwan Smith immediately realizes they're running mesh and steps down and just punches Roma Dunezay in the chest.

That was an awesome play. The Swift screen that you mentioned earlier, Roquon Smith kills that at the line of scrimmage, which that is like classic Rochwan Smith. he's one of the best. And then the part to me that like you don't always see from Roquon Smith, there was at the very end of the third quarter, the bears were trying to run like a counter to the left. And he just smokes Durham Smyth in the hole. And I was like, oh, if Roquan Smith is going to be back moving downhill and hitting people.

And I think that kind of speaks to what you're talking about with being in the box, right? Because I think when you're more of a light box team, a lot of your linebackers are kind of sitting and waiting for the defensive linemen, like playing two blocks and be like, okay, where do I need to fit against the ball. When you're playing gaped out and you can just let guys go, I think every now and then you start to see Rokon Smith do that. And if they're going to unleash him in that way, I think that that could honestly help them a lot. I feel like you felt that throughout the entire front seven this game. I thought that Teddy Buchanan had some nice moments against the run. There was a play in the third quarter, late in the third quarter, where they tried to pull Jonah

Jackson to kick out Kyle Van Nuoy, who was the edge on the defensive right side, the offense is left. And Kyle Van Nuoy goes low on Jonah Jackson on that play and just completely submarines him at the line of scrimmage and creates a pile up on a one-yard gain. And so there were just plenty of those moments today, yesterday, where you just felt like the Ravens front was really taking it to the Bears physically. And so if you're going to be in those third and defined past situations and not be able to lean on play action the way that this team wants to, you're going to get picked on a little bit.

And I think that's exactly what we felt over the course of the game. So where I land on this is, again, frustrating. You wish it felt a little bit cleaner halfway through the season, but you wish everything felt a little bit cleaner halfway through the season, whether it's the quarterback's performance, some of the accuracy stuff, the penalties that continue to crop up. But my takeaway from this is I'm not freaking out just yet. And I'm also looking at where the Ravens are in the standings after a game like this. And it was funny today. I looked at the playoff picture on NFL.com. What do you think the NFL dot com algorithm or formula or whatever has the Ravens?

playoff chances at right now at two and five i mean honestly after the steelers losing i'm going to guess it's like 55% or something 56% what really okay well i was guessing i'm like it's probably gonna be like a coin flip basically of them getting it over the steelers they're two and five and nflb dot com has them with a 56% chance to make the playoffs what a ridiculous team like what a that's what having lamar jackson does for you all right we talked about that game for half an hour which is the most predictable thing all time. We're going to have to get through these next to a bit quicker, but I think we'll be able to pull that off. First, we're going to take our first quick break. Let's talk about the Houston Texans finding a little bit of footing on offense. They beat the

Niners 26 to 15. What did you see from C.J. Stroud and that group that felt a little bit different than what it had been like over the first seven weeks of the season? So I think from just like a personality and quality of play standpoint, C.J. Stroud just looked really comfortable under pressure again, which that was what he was. as a rookie, just like being able to stand on his spot and make his throw and feel comfortable doing it and just look really accurate. I mean, we talked about the Hutchinson throw that he made on the Sunday show, obviously, last night. But also, he just made a number of throws throughout the game like that where he's just, I mean, early on in the game, there's one that he kind of lays out. D. Winters is coming off, kind of free off the right side.

And he just lays a cross route for Braxton Berrios. And Berrios has to kind of dive for it. But the fact that he even gets that ball out there is super impressive to me. And he just, he did a lot of that stuff all game, was throwing a lot of those just like ripping an out route outside of the numbers that I think when he's playing at his best is something that he does really comfortably. So I just thought Stroud looked like he knew where to go with the ball, was very comfortable doing so. And even in the instances he was pressured ball came out, I thought from like a schematic standpoint,

they did a little bit more trying to attack the one to 10 yard area than I think this offense typically does. I think they want to throw down field, but they did a lot more like, we're just going to kind of slice and dice this beat up, you know, 49ers second level of the field, especially without Fred Warner, and just see if we can beat him. And I thought they generally did a really, really good job of that. Yeah, I thought that he beat the Blitz multiple different times, like with throws, which we just hadn't seen that enough over the last two seasons with this team. Like their answers for pressure, including how the quarterback was handling it, left a lot to be desired. I think today or yesterday, he probably had his best performance in that area that I can remember him having over the last

couple seasons, which was really encouraging. There are two things just in terms of like approach that I felt like, okay, I actually like this as a thought. I like them leaning into, I don't need them to like boot and stuff with him. Like I don't need that with this offensive line. But if you want to get him on some of those more vertical play actions where he's throwing drift routes back over the middle of the field, that's what CJ Stroud does well. Like that's the version of this offense I'd like to see.

And they did a little bit more of that in this game. And then I thought there was a combination of two different things where it's kind of counterintuitive the way that they're using it. They were lining up in Jumbo looks in part to use play action in this game. There are two biggest completions and biggest gains of the day where play action passes off of Jumbo, out of Jumbo. One was a checkdown to Woody Marks, but you have time in part because you have six in protection to get to the checkdown after the entire defense is bled out with vertical routes. They dumped it to him in the flat. He takes it 50 yards, which is they're. biggest completion of the day. And then the 44 yarder to Jail and Noel on that post against

quarters is also out of jumbo. And so them getting base defense on the field, we're getting one more guy in protection. And they're putting three receivers on the field in some of these moments too. And so it's a nice little combination of we're trying to dictate to the defense, but we're also trying to continue to be dangerous if we want to throw the ball out of these looks. I thought that was smart. And then the best work they did running the ball in this game was out of the gun. And so a little bit all right, we're going to play with what we should be doing in these scenarios where we're actually going to use some of these jumbo looks to try to set up some play action shots. And then we're going to try to spread you out in some of these looks and maybe get a couple easy, cheap gains out of the gun running the ball. They had a 45% success rate running the ball out of the gun.

Under center, it was like 20%. I mean, so I do, I did enjoy some of like these structural ideas and some of the things that they're picking away at to try to at least figure this thing out. there, and we'll talk about the defense in a minute. Their overall coaching staff did a lot of like, this is new for us this week. And I really do think you saw that from the offense, which is important. And just a lot of like,

you've talked about this before with other teams, just like how do we win this game? And again, against the Niners where I think they want to throw a little bit more blitzes because they don't really have a pass rush. And the second level of their defense is not very good because they don't have Fred Warner. And you can kind of abuse de winters and you can abuse some of these other linebackers.

Then beating the blitz and just like throwing a lot of these short shots, I think was really impressive. Like, to me, one of the weirdly more impressive games was actually a third down. They didn't convert. But in the first quarter with nine minutes ago, it's a third and seven. And the Niners fired two players off the right side. I think it's the nickel and one of the linebackers. CJ Stroud replaces it immediately.

And Jaden Higgins makes a guy miss so that he can turn what could have been fourth and three, fourth and four. You probably don't go for it into a fourth and one that they then convert with the sneak. Like just little stuff of converting plays like that. where I just don't feel like three weeks ago they would have been able to actually complete on plays like that. I thought was pretty cool to see. And then on that same drive, they had a third and 11 where they get Barry else on a little like short post

from the slot. And that's a conversion. And so they were 9 of 16 on third down in this game. And so I thought that their third down plan and how quickly he was getting the ball out of his hands in those moments. That was really nice to see. And then I think two more takeaways just from the offense overall. One, J.

One needs to play more. Like he's just, he's just a good player. That was one of those where I get a lot of stuff wrong. Watching Jaila and No one college, I was just like, I don't know, that guy's good. I don't know what else you want me to say. He's good at a lot of stuff. He is a vertical player.

I mean, you saw that on the 44-yarder on the post route. Like, that's a beautiful design. They're the Niners are in quarters. They tie down the safety to that side with a little curl from Higgins. They have Noel coming back on the post. CJ throws those beautifully. So that like perfect application of him. And then even in like the short and intermediate area, he's kind of sought off.

Like he's a more physical kind of put together player than like a vertical slot guy might lead you to believe. And so he can create like a little subtle separation on some of those plays. I mean, there was that one early in the game where he gets the little tiny push off. Like he can affect the game in a bunch of different ways if given the opportunity to do so. And so even when they get healthy at receiver and we get Nico back and all this stuff, this guy should play he's just good at football the little push off play and i think it was an outrout that cj strout through that to me was cool from one nol made a really nice move at the top of his

route but also just them doing little stuff to make cj stroud's life easier like they're in trips to the left uh on that play and they take nol who's the number two and do like a little yo yo-yo motion they pull him back to the formation and then put him out just to get like okay are we getting man coverage here they are clearly getting man coverage there and so they run nol on that like out route uh to the left hand side and he gets the top of his route. The DB has it stacked perfectly. But Noel just kind of gets into his chest, bench presses him off and makes his break. And it's just like the fact that he can be so explosive out of that and so comfortable doing that, this offense desperately needed a receiver who,

hey man, it's third and eight. Can you just get open somehow? The fact that CJ Stroud kind of trusts him to clearly do that is really cool. And they had another one. There was like 11 minutes left in the third quarter. They essentially run an option route to him out of a stack. And he makes it work. like he can affect the game in a bunch of different ways. And so the fact that now we're starting to get an understanding of like what J. O'Nole can be for this offense and some of the structural things are putting these guys in slightly better positions to succeed. That was really nice to see.

The last thought about the offense, the touchdown to Higgins, the design on that play was beautiful. Like so they have a quick motion to the left where Higgins goes from right to left. And then so essentially it creates like a little stack on the left side with him and Dalton Schultz. Dalton Schultz runs a corner route from the number one spot. the Texans are in cover too and so it yanks the safety out and then you have no Higgins coming back

on like a little short post and he's wide open like it's just a beautiful design it's on time and so just a lot of moments from the Texans offense in this game that were pleasing to me where I was like all right I like that like I like what they're trying to do I like how they're using these guys and so it was not necessarily a familiar feeling based on how most of this season has gone you take it with a grain of salt because of the state of the Niners

defense right now but still very nice to see if you're a Texans fan. Exactly. Like a little bit of grain of salt, but man, given what we've seen at their worst from this Texan's offense, I'll take that against anybody. And when you combine that with a defense that can keep you in any game you're playing, that's where the Texans suddenly become at least mildly interesting when you're looking at the last couple spots in the AFC wildcard race. And the defense, again, you watch them play in this game. And it's just, it's a bunch of banshees, man. Like, we already knew that. And the guy that stuck out to me the most is going back and rewatching this thing. I mean, Petrie had a great game.

Like, Petrie was like, just the gob, the goblin version of himself the entire day. But what Will Anderson was in this game is just like, holy shit, man. Like, what an absolute monster that guy is. He is such a special player. Like, there are just, there are probably eight moments in my notes that I could go back and try to find. But like, to me, the one where, I mean, he just the things that he was doing to the right tackle in this game, but there's one where he just immediately off the snap.

I think it's a third down. It's the only snap of cover one the Texans played all day, actually, which I'll get to in a minute. But it was the middle of the third quarter. He doesn't do anything. Anderson just flies off the right side and just like cooks like just boom gets off the edge

and is able to get to Mac Jones face has thrown in completion. Like he just, the speed at which he's playing right now, there was even another actually run at some point earlier in the game where they pull the right guard to the left hand side so there's a little bit of that void

between the right tackle and the center. Most defensive ends do not have. the juice to get through that and like through the backside of the play go and get in front of the running back will anderson junior does baby and so just the fact that he's got this gear to him and is so like smart and put together he's very tough like he just he really is the total package at this point there are when you watch these great pass rushers there are just stretches of the game where they're ruining series like just entire sets of downs they're just blowing them up and that happened in this game there was the one late in the third quarter where it's

the second and seven, he obliterates Mack Jones on that play as Mac Jones is trying to let the ball go. And then on the next play, he gets his hand on Mac Jones's arm again on a third and seven in completion. So it's two plays in a row. He just absolutely destroys. He nearly gets another strip sack on the opening drive of the third quarter. And so you just felt him the entire game. And it pushed me to look up just his numbers at this point in the season. I was just curious like, all right, where are we at and how often he's affecting the quarterback and where that stacks up to other players in the league?

So the only player right now with more quick pressures in the NFL this year is Nick Benito. The only player with at least 150 pass rush snaps with a quicker time to pressure is Jonathan Grenard. You combine that with the fact that there are four guys in the NFL who have been shipped more times than Will Anderson has this year. T.J. Watt, Miles Garrett, Trey Hendrickson, and Aidan Hutchinson. That's it. And so he's getting all of this attention, even on a team with the Neil Hunter, and he has still, been one of the three or four most impactful pass rushers in the NFL so far this season. Like that's the gear that he has reached as a player. He's unlike, yeah, when they, you know, made the trade up to like go and, oh, they're going to

take a quarterback and a pass rush to this high in the draft. Like, it's because you think that he can be a truly like game changing player for you. And he has. And like, there was even one play where he didn't even make the play. But this to me speaks to what the, the Texas pass rush can really do. both him and Hunter, a hundred miles an hour, just fly off the edge. Like, no trying to dance around the tackle. Just like burn off the edge.

We're going to turn the arc and force the quarterback to step up. But they take the defensive tackles and run them on a little bit of a twist. One of them gets free. And so even if Mack Jones wanted to step up, he's stepping up. He has to step up fast because of how quick those guys get around the edge. And then he's stepping up directly into a defensive tackle. Like that's what those guys afford you. And if Will Andrew, he could already do this last year.

But if he's really playing at like another level from what he had, It's just, I don't know, man. He to me is why they are probably if I had to pick one, the best defense in the league. And what structurally and like the way they approach is the fact that they played no man in this game. What does that say to you and why did that? Why do you feel like that was notable? So I, to me, it wasn't just that they didn't play man. One, they only played one snap of cover one.

But I think what was interesting to me is on the whole, this is a team that wants to be, play a lot of cover three. they'll play some quarters on early downs like that's part of their thing but their base calls are like we play a lot of cover three or we'll just play man in this game they played 50% quarters and 14% cover 6 which the quarter's number is the highest

that they've run all season and if you combine them both it's certainly the highest combined number that they've had all year in terms of cover 3 they only ran that 13.6% of the time which is their lowest this year by 20% like they just it was a completely different game plan and I think this was

just a little bit of, D'Amico Rines has been in the room with Kyle Shanahan. He knows what Kyle wants. He wants you to be in single high and he wants to do all his crossers and play action bullshit. And I think D'Miko Rines was just very comfortable being like, listen, we're going to play in our quarter stuff. We're going to put a shell on everything. And we're going to say like, hey man, can Mack Jones get the ball out fast enough against

Will Anderson Jr. and Daniel Hunter? And the answer for the most part was no. And then when he did, they were just rallying to tackle incredibly well. The linebackers played well. like Petrie mentioned was awesome. EJ Speed, who, when they signed earlier this offseason, I was like every other team messed up because he's at least a starting quality linebacker, I feel like.

And so I thought he had a good game doing some of that stuff. Like they just, this is a defense that when you just want to pin your ears back and play tight coverage and just like do all that, they are the best in the league at it. And today I thought it was really impressive. The quarter centric approach has been something we've seen teams do against the nineers pretty much all year. and I think it's a combination of two different things.

One, it's just harder to manipulate, like you said, than some of those single high things where they want to, you know, bleed you out and get some of those crossers coming back over. And two, one of the downsides to quarters is, if you have a team that's willing to take shots, it manifests as like one-on-one coverage in a lot of vertical situations. Well, what are you not worried about playing against the Niners and Mac Jones?

Like, Mac Jones has a lot of strengths, like, right? Like, Mac Jones can't hurt you in specific situations, but he's just not somebody that's going to do a lot of pushing the ball downfield. And so this is already something that we had seen. Like I think teams playing just more too high against the Niners period started creeping up last year. But since Mack Jones has come in there, I think it's become even more pronounced because teams just aren't really worried about you throw in like a deep post against quarters when Mack Jones is your quarterback. That's not what he's in there to do. And that's the thing.

Like almost all of their best plays in this game outside of George Kittle making an absolutely ridiculous. catch in the end zone, which we can talk about in a second if we want to. But almost all of their other like past game answers in this game were in the handful of instances where the Texans were in some of their cover six stuff, they were throwing into the cover two side. They were getting a couple of corner routes in there and attacking that side. But like really other than that, Kyle Shanahan and Mack Jones did not have an answer for a lot of the we're going to put the lid on things with quarters approach that the Texans brought

to this. The kiddle thing, the only thing, the only like note I have on that is I think, with him after the game he was doing a press conference. They were just asking him about, you know, getting some guys back and, you know, when Brock Purdy comes back and when IU comes back. And that's just kind of where I'm at now, like seeing CMC obviously didn't have a big day. But getting Kittle and McCaffrey back in there is just like, I just kind of want to watch this team at like something close to full strength on offense.

Like I'm just ready to be back in that place. So am I. And that's why like, again, Mack Jones does a lot of stuff well. And I don't even think Purdy is the greatest deep passer. But if there's at least some degree of things. threat of that in the offense whenever he comes back on top of some of these skill guys coming back. I'm like, the Niners will probably be pretty good when they got there guys. All right. We're going to take one more quick break and then come back and talk a little Saints Bucks.

I don't, I mean, obviously the most interesting part of this game is the Saints benching Spencer Rattler and going to Tyler Shuck. Other than that, like, I don't know if I have a ton of other stuff that's worth talking about from the Buck side of this. I thought the Bs played really well again in this game, which with that group back healthy, it's fun to watch all of those guys out there again. Like, right, Jamel Dean had a punch out that should have been a touchdown for Antoine Winfield. Antoine Winfield had another ridiculous takeaway in this game. It was nice to have Zion McCollum back in there. Tyke Smith had a couple moments in this game, especially in man coverage.

And so even, and then you combine that with the fact that now with the DB's back healthy, we have injuries up front. And so Anthony Nelson is playing a ton because of San Reddick is hurt. but then Anthony Nelson has like one of the games of his life. He has a strip sack where they make, where they get a recovery. He has the interception that leads to a touchdown. And so I think the Bucks again, the enterprising nature of this defense where it seems like somebody important is hurt all of the time.

Can we get somebody to step up in their stead? They continue to do that. So that's kind of where I sit with the Bucks, with Bucks defense in this game. The Bucks offense, I don't know. Did you have any like major takeaways from watching what they did yesterday? The only thing I really had. was they went into 12 personnel a lot more than they usually would. But yeah, it's because all their receivers are hurt.

And their second option is like Sterling Shepard and Tess Johnson. And like, Tess Johnson's been fun. But I don't like, I don't think you want to be like spamming the Tess Johnson plays. And so the only note I really had was that the Bucks used 12 personnel, 46.4% of the time in this game, which was the highest of any team this week,

but also the highest, uh, ever in the Baker Mayfield era. So again, I think a lot of that was just kind of by necessity. And I think you, definitely felt that in the way that they were calling plays. Like it was a lot of they were trying to run the ball

in spite of not doing it very well for a majority of this game. It was a lot of screens. It was a lot of like trying to get some of these shorter play action stuff. So other than them, I think a lot of that too was we don't feel like we need to press to win this game. So let's just kind of like get our heavy bodies out there, try to see if we can control the ball. Let's just get out of here and let the Saints offense beat themselves.

A couple of frustrating sequences. down near the goal line. Obviously they get stuffed on three or four attempts from the one yard line and can't get in. It ends up not mattering because they get the interception return for a touchdown like two plays later with the Saints in the shadow of their own goalpost. And then even later in the game on the sequence that ends on the Sean Tucker fourth and one, that was a frustrating series of plays. Baker tries to throw an interception to Koolaid McKinstree on third down. He can't hang on to it. And then they punched it on fourth down for the touchdown. So that's the other thing. The first on the first fourth and or the first

four down sequence on the goal line. They just get stuffed four times on runs. Like just can't get through. And part of that too, by the way, I do want to shout out to Mario Davis was a, he was awesome in this game. Like, he's just really, really good. I hope he gets, I want him to get traded to a team that is worth something because he's still got a little bit of a gear.

So, but then the second time they get down there and have that four play sequence, I think they run on second down or whatever. But first and third down, they're trying to throw a fade to first Sterling Shepard and then in Mecca, I don't like that. I just, I'm okay. with the fade balls when Mike Evans is out there because he's like one of three guys who like can just kind of do that trying to throw up the one-on-one like that. I don't really love in those scenarios. And then they were kind of fortunate that the fourth and one got punched

in there at the end. I think it's worth mentioning Chase Young had a big day against Tristan Worf's. Some of that is on Tristan Wirfs, who also struggled a little bit with Chase Young last year. Some of that is on Baker Mayfield. Like on the strip sack at the end of the second quarter, Baker's at 11 yards on that play. Like that, that's a moment where that That's just, that's on the quarterback for the depth of his drop and for hanging out of the ball a little bit. And so a big day for Chase Young and a rough day, cosmetically for Tristan Werf's. But I think some of that belongs on the quarterback and just his decision making and timing and location in some of those moments.

Yeah, Baker was a little bit up and down in this game, which is fine. Like, they're just, their whole offense has been like discombobulated getting guys in and out. And again, I don't think they were, I don't think that this was their most ambitious game plan on offense to begin with. So it's fine. Let's get to the Saints offense in this game because going back and watching this, knowing that Rauer got benched, I expected him to have played much worse up to the point of his benching than he ultimately played.

Like when you consider how he has played over the first seven weeks combined with what he played like over the first two and a half quarters of this game, I think it's kind of hard to justify putting him on the bench for Tyler Shuck other than like, and does any of this matter anyway? Like, that's the only possible rationalization for this. That's all it is. It's like, oh, we're losing none of this matters anyway. We're just going to make a change.

And like, I get it. This regime is not the one that drafted Spencer Rattler. So it maybe doesn't really matter to them if they need, if they want to find out that his ceiling is the 17th best quarterback in the league. I get that. That's fine. But like he to me in a vacuum again, yeah, like you said, did not play bad enough to think that this was a guy worth benching.

Like he had an awesome throw down the right side line to Olavé. I thought generally did a good job like keeping the offense moving, which is something that he's done for a majority of this year. So again, I think the turnovers as of late have been worse. Like again, the Bears game, he threw a few more picks than he should have. In this game, he had a scramble where Anthony Nelson punches a ball out. Then you obviously have the interception. So I can see maybe on like all of the losing on top of him having a couple of games

where the turnovers are a little bit higher, that that is bleeding in some frustration. But like, I just, the issue I really have with this is, Once you make the decision, you can't go back. That's my problem with it. You're just playing Tyler Shuck now, which like, well, what if he's terrible? Like, at least, like, you know, Spencer Rattler might not be good, but I don't think he's, like, terrible in an abomination and the reason that they're losing these games. He just might not be the reason you're getting over the top in some of these games, which for a fifth round, second year player, whatever, that's fine. Tyler Shuck, I just, I struggled with a lot of what he showed in the preseason.

I did not think there was a whole lot he showed in this game. And so now they're tied to it. It's just I did not love them being so quick to make that decision. Yeah, I think when you're in the spot the Saints are in, you're going to want to play him at some point before the end of the season just to get an idea of what you have, right? This is probably going to happen anyway at some point over the course of the year. And maybe it's better if it happens halfway through the season

than with four or five games left because you're eventually going to have more information. I just don't know how much I expect Tyler Shuck to be better. than Spencer Rattler has been over the first seven weeks of the year. And maybe that doesn't matter, right? If you're in the position of the Saints are in, maybe that doesn't actually matter. But I just kind of feel for Spencer Routler because I don't feel like he's, he played poorly enough to not continue to have this job despite a few of the turnovers that we've seen over the last couple weeks.

Yeah, this feels very like circumstantial. This feels very much like if it was insert X backup quarterback behind him, he doesn't get benched. it's, we just spent, you know, the 42nd overall pick or whatever on this quarterback. We need to see if he can play. And so again, I get it from that angle. And again, this, this regime did not draft Spencer Rattler, but I thought he had been playing fine, even in this game outside of the pick six. And so I don't know, just a just a very weird, weird decision for me. I did not love it. What did you make of the Tyler Shock performance that you did see in this game? I just, he kind of is what he is. I think the

ball when he gets it out at the top of his drop can be okay. I just think. a lot of times that he can be a beat late triggering on stuff if it's not like in the quick game. I also think his ball location at times can be very weird. Like the interception that he throws to Shaheed, that technically hits Shaheed in the hands, but he's throwing like a stick route and leaves it high and back inside towards the defender in a perfect location for the defender to strip it away. Like that's the one location that ball can be a problem for you. And so I just, some of that stuff I thought was frustrating.

And to me, why you would want to make the change from Spencer Rattler potentially is that the offense has been bad at generating explosive plays. Like that is a legitimate issue the offense has had. And I do think some of that has been Spencer Rattler missing throws down the field. I'm just from what I know and have seen of Tyler Shuck. I'm not confident that he's going to change that. And maybe I'll be wrong in a few weeks and that will be the difference. But like that to me would be the reason you would make the change. And I just don't know if we're going to get there based on what I've seen so far.

I think there's a weird push and pull there, though, because the throw you mentioned to Olave, that's Spencer Rattler, the one he made down the field. That's Spencer Rattler like extending the play to make that. And so the fact that I wonder if, even if there's a little bit more accuracy down the field on some of these design shots, the lack of creation, do you end up having more explosive plays on the other side of that? I have my doubts about that being the case. Probably not, but like maybe there honestly might be an element of like, you know,

Kellyn Moore is the architect of the offense and if he feels like he can just set the guy on the railways and just let him make the throw, maybe he's more confident Shuck can make those throws. I don't know. Like it's, I think there's just a lot of weird moving pieces that don't necessarily have to do with Rattler's play in a vacuum

that led to a lot of this decision. I think that's exactly right. I just think we're at a point where it's like, all right, it's time. Right? We need to get an answer on this guy at some point. The offense is not playing well. The offense isn't playing well enough where it's indefensible to bench him. And I think as soon as you get to that point, it's like, this feels like an opportunity where let's just move on.

Let's get to the other guy. Let's see what we have over the next eight games. And then we'll figure out what we have to do a quarterback in the offseason. Whether that's fair to Spencer Rower, I think we can argue about. But it's not surprising that that is the mindset. This team and this position has taken with the position. All right, we went a little long on the Bears. So we only have one Monday morning, a voicemail from you guys today.

Boer, let's hear it. What do we got? Hey guys, I'm Sam. I'm a Steelers fan calling in. I guess I'm just looking for a perspective on why I should feel anything about this team on a week-by-week basis. And if that sounds too nihilist, just let me explain. The Steelers have a good shot at finishing this season with a negative point differential for the fifth time in seven years. They've gotten embarrassed in every playoff game they've appeared in in that time.

Everyone in the universe knows how this season is going to end. They'll shithouse their way to nine or ten wins. If they make the playoffs, they'll get bullied by a better and more ambitious team. They'll get pick number 20 or whatever in the draft, and then it's right back to the same off-season routine of bringing in some firmly below-average veteran quarterback who will get us our nine or ten wins next year. I know they have a couple of extra comments.

picks in the draft but next year but let's be honest that won't be enough to move up like 15 spots in the first round and it's not like the Steelers have proven themselves to be down decision makers at the quarterback position and they should be given the benefit of the doubt so I ask again why should I feel anything week to week with this team what do you got for this I just think it's so funny that one of the most like proud organizations in football like every Every fan over the last five years for this team has just been like, I don't got it anymore, man. I don't want to do this. I want off the ride.

I still kind of maintain that a lot of this is like, I think there are some legitimate issues with Tomlin. I would say over the last few years specifically, the way that the defense has been played and constructed, I would probably pin on him. I still think generally, like, holistically, he continues to make this team better than it probably deserves. But that's kind of the problem, right? Like, you're never going to bottom out and get some of maybe the star talent and

restructure your roster the way that you would probably need to in a way that this team would need to so long as he is the coach. But I don't know. It's a very troubling position to be. And I really don't know what to do because I also think the offense is exactly what you wanted it to be for this season to go right. Isn't it? Like that's kind of the issue. Like they are middle of the pack against decent defenses. They can have a day. Rogers is playing relatively well. The offensive line is coming together in spurts. You've got an identity with some of the weird shit that Arthur Smith is doing. like it's they've handled their business but the old and expensive defense sucks like that that is the part of it that to me is really really really frustrating and so i think that's the most problematic

part of this if you are a steelers fan who like supports mike tomlin because the entire argument three four years ago when we were doing the whole mac canada thing was well if they just get some semblance of competency on offense like how good could this team be because they still felt like one of the best defenses in the league did they get boat raced in the the playoffs by better teams way too often? Yes. But over the course of the year, at least you felt like you were going to get the six to 10th best defense in football at the very least, even if they maybe had some limitations.

Now, with that not happening, that's where things get troubling. Because the entire argument and the entire calculus for, all right, we just need the offense to like figure itself out and be solid because the defense is going to be so good. having the 14th best offense in the league no longer matters if you're going to be like a bottom 10 defense that is the most expensive defense in the league. And so I think that's the part of this that if you want to make an argument for why it's time to start over and move on,

that to me is the best argument for it is that everything you were promised for what was supposed to come with the Tom 1 regime, the things that were supposed to be consistent and reliable and solid, and those things are no longer consistent and reliable. and solid. This team has the most expensive defense in football. They are 29th in defensive success rate per true media. 29th. It's just not okay. Like it's just like you can't have that when you have built yourself this way and you fancy yourself this sort of team. It's not okay.

And it's everything with the defense. Like it's it's not a like this is the one issue. Like we talked about how schematically they can be very simple. And I think they've had their issues not even just as like a holistic schematic thing, but even in some of their situation. situational play calling, I think, has been pretty bad this year. But then we talk about some of the expensive veterans. Like, Jalen Ramsey, I don't think, has been playing very well. Patrick Queen, I think, has not been very good for them. T.J. Watt is, I don't not think, playing, like, up to his all-pro potential as of late.

And I know that he gets chipped a lot. But even that's still being the case, I do not feel like he's playing to his potential. Cam Hayward still is. But other than that, a lot of the older guys, I don't think are. And then a lot of the young guys are like, you know, Keanu Benton's been really up and down this year. Peyton Wilson, like these guys they've recently drafted out. outside of Joey Porter Jr. really have given them a lot of up and down play. So it's kind of like a little bit of everything.

Like your expensive guys are not playing with what you want. The young guys, for the most part, are still trying to come around. And schematically, they're just getting no help. And so it's just this terrible, terrible storm of just everything not going well for them. I don't know what, like, the most analogous situation is. I think there are kind of some similarities to what was happening with Pete Carroll at the end in Seattle, where the offense was probably the better. side of the ball by the time we got to the end of it. But like if that's the case, then what do we do in here?

Like if the goal was to be like 12th and offensive DVOA and to be like a nine and eight or 10 and seven sort of team, like I just don't know if that's worth chasing. And it kind of feels like that's where the Steelers are right now. And Mike Tomlin has been fantastic for a very long time. But if you're a Steelers fan who is just sitting there saying to yourself, like you just said, I want off this ride. I just feel like it's time to try something different based on how this continues to go. I wouldn't blame you for feeling that way. Yeah, I wouldn't blame you for feeling that way. I would also be ready for it to get worse before it gets better.

And I also think Tomlin will probably still be good wherever he ends up after that if they do end up moving on for me. Like, it's just a very weird situation to try to untangle overall. Yeah, I totally agree. But I don't think Mike Tomlin is a bad football coach. I just think that we kind of realized some of the limitations and some of the, dead ends that have come with this version and this era of the Steelers. And I think they're being laid pretty bare right now when you watch how that defense is playing. And again, that was supposed to be the end of the argument or the side of the bargain that

they were consistently able to make good on. And they just have not been able to do that recently. All right. That is all we've got for today. If you guys are listening to this on Tuesday, encourage you to check out the Monday night football recap that will be available in your YouTube feed. I will not be on that. I am flying to New York for some more.

work stuff this week, but Derek and Dave have you covered. Other than that, same programming coming your way all throughout the week. We'll have Building the Beast coming your way on Wednesday. We'll be back here with a fun show on Thursday. We're going to do a little bit of a mid-season check-in about whose offensive and defensive lines are performing better or worse than you might expect so far throughout the year. I'm going to have Brandon Thorne on and we're just going to do a diagnostic download on which teams are getting more or less from their offensive and defensive lines, and they should.

So the pure service on a show like that, for those of you who maybe are not watching that super closely over the course of the year. And then we'll be back with the week nine preview on Friday. Until then, appreciate it. Talk to you guys soon.