The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Week 9 Hangover: The Seahawks make another big statement

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

We might not have thought of the Seahawks as Super Bowl contenders before the season began. We definitely do now. They showed us why yet again in their dismantling of the Commanders on Sunday Night Football in Week 9. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dive into that performance on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also discuss the Jaguars' 30-29 win over the Raiders, and the Eagles and Dolphins getting trade deadline week going with a deal for Jaelen Phillips.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. It's the week nine hangover with me and Derek Klesson, who is back in studio, which is very, very exciting. We only hit two games on The Hangover today because we want to spend a little bit of time talking about the Jalen Phillips trade. Jalen Phillips goes to the Eagles for a third round pick. That's how we kicked off the show and then spent a while digging into the Sunday night game last night. Talked a lot of Seahawks stuff. Talked about Sam Donald's MVP case, what has made the Seahawks offense so good, what makes their defense so good.

We talked a little bit about where JSN fits in like the overall hierarchy of NFL players at this point. Doug a little bit into what has not worked for Washington's defense and what is starting to feel like a little bit of a lost season for that group. Second game we hit was the Jags and the Raiders, which is a fun one, but good quarterback play on both sides. Enjoyed what Gino and Trevor brought to the table. Thought the Brock Powers and that monster game that he had, hopefully a sign of what's to come

for the Raiders and then, you know, the Jags offense doing just enough. know what to do with this team. Still have absolutely no idea what I think of the Jacksonville Jaguars halfway through the season. My what do I want to know coming into week nine that we did on the preview show last week was how should I feel about the Jags after the buy? Still no idea. So it's going to take a little bit long before we get an answer there. Really enjoyed this collection of conversations with Derek. Let's get to it right now. It's the week nine hangover, officially halfway through the season with these. And it's good to have you back in person to Very excited about that.

This is a good one. I feel like us having to do a little bit of like picking a Trevor Lawrence game for this, I think is perfect for me being back. Got two games that we're going to dig into today. We originally said on the recap show that we were going to do three. Unfortunately, we had some trade news, or fortunately, because it's fun things to talk about.

So we had a trade happen earlier this morning that we wanted to dig into that, plus a couple other things that cropped up. We're only digging into two games today. So we were going to lose Niners Giants. Apologies for that. I think that most of you will probably live. I'm sure we'll dig into more of this Niners team as the season goes on. And then I think there will be some bigger picture questions to be asking about the giants in the back half of this season that I'm sure we will get to at some point.

But we're going to talk about the Sunday night game today and the Jaguars knocking off the Raiders in a fun overtime game. But let's start with that trade that I alluded to earlier. Jalen Phillips going to the Philadelphia Eagles for a 2026 third round pick. Your initial thoughts about this. I mean, I think this is fine. This is an Eagles team that like they are. in the Super Bowl window every year. And I think they've been a little bit more turbulent

on both sides of the ball than they probably wanted to. But I think the most, I think offensively like figuring out what to address, it's not really a talent issue, right? It's been like, can we get this new play caller to figure out how they want to figure out the offense? They've had some injuries on the offensive line, all that. Defensively, I think we knew coming into the season that size on the edge. And I think some depth on the edge was going to be a little bit of an issue for them.

And I think them flirting with bringing back, you know, Brandon Graham, getting him out of retirement. they obviously had brought in Zadaria Smith before he ended up retiring. They've had some injuries there with guys on and off the field. I think them going and making a swing for a guy who can pretty clearly be a good edge starter for you. Brings a little bit of length that I think that they've been lacking. So I think this is, I really enjoy this move as, again, they probably still need a corner too, but in terms of them fixing what they need to fix on the defense, this was as good as they were going to get in this cycle

without breaking the bank for a Trey Hedrickson or whoever it was going to be. Yeah, I think if you're trying to thread the needle of we're not trying to give up a ton of draft capital, We want somebody who can be impactful. Giving up a third round pick for Jaylen Phillips, I think makes perfect sense. Sounds like Miami is going to take on some of the salary. And so I think that's part of the reason that it's driving the price here. And the difference between a move like this and some of the other deadline moves we've seen in recent years. Like, let's say the Mark Cooper trade last year, right?

Mark Cooper is an aging player when that happens. Jalen Phillips is 26 years old. And so there is at least a chance, I think, on two different fronts. You could choose to extend him next offseason if he plays well for, for you. He obviously has some history with Vic Fangio from his time in Miami. Or if he leaves in free agency and you're not overly aggressive, he's probably going to get the sort of deal on the market that you could get a comp pick for him a little bit further down the road. And yet again, this is a team that has more draft capital than you think it does. One of my favorite things

every year is just opening the, there are a couple different resources that have these, but opening just a list of which picks have been traded in any upcoming draft and figuring out where the Eagles randomly have an extra selection. So the Eagles traded a third round pick. It's going to be their third round pick, I believe, to Miami for Jalen Phillips. They have an extra third round pick that they got from the Hassan Reddick trade,

which is a 2026 conditional round pick that was a second round pick of Reddit got 67.5% of playing time. And then if he didn't hit any of those markers, it goes to a third round pick. And so there's just random day two picks just in the woodwork for this team consistently. the Hassan Reddick one is this year's version of that. That is so ridiculous.

I completely forgot that Hassan Reddick was traded for that much capital and then basically did not end up playing for his next scene. That's really, really funny. But yeah, I'm pretty excited about what the Philist trade is going to do for them. The Eagles do a good job of the old trade picks two, three, three years in advance because for some GMs, you don't want to do that because it's like, am I going to be here to make those picks? For Howie, it's like, well, I know I'm going to be here in three years.

And so if I got an extra two or an extra three, two or three years down the road, I'm absolutely going to jump all over that. Like you mentioned, this gives them size on the edge. You know, Phillips is pretty put together. And then my biggest question from this schematically is that a lot of the best work that Phillips has done, and he's one of the highest pressure rates in the NFL over the last month or so among all edge defenders. He does a lot of work bumped inside and defined pass rushing situations. And so I'll be curious to see what that means for the Eagles because they obviously have guys that they want to be rushing on the interior.

And so is he somebody that solely plays the edge for them in defined? you know, third and whatever scenarios, or are they going to find a way to deploy him similar to the way that Miami did because that's where he does some of his best work? You would hope that they find some ways to get him going on the interior because he does do that really well. Because the thing with like a guy who's that long is that guards, a lot of the reason a lot of those guys,

until playing guard instead of tackles, because they're just not as long. And so if you can get into their chest, be as strong as Phillips is, I think that that could be a real weapon for them. I do think that they'll probably still play him majority of edge. But again, part of the value in Vick's scheme and with some of the, other players that they have when all their linebackers are healthy is you can put bond on the edge a little bit you can put jihad campbell on the edge a little bit and so you can play around with all those body types and if this means that maybe they can get you know some of their other defensive

tackles like jordan davis off the field on some of these past rush snaps when they know it's i don't know third and ten and there's no reason for a bigger body for him to be out there i think that could be valuable but to me this is just can we get 25 better snaps than we were getting previously from that spot on the edge you look at some of the guys you look at some of the guys available at corner specifically. I mean, guys who would be like real impact players are guys that most teams probably aren't going to want to trade away right now. I mean, Tariq Wollin is a free agent. Obviously, Seattle, I think they're in a spot where they want that depth, even if he's not going to be somebody who's out there in base looks right now. And so there aren't that many players that

kind of jump out to you. I think that's why they eventually, that's why they made the Michael Carter deal because it's like, that's the best corner that might be available for the right price now, even if he doesn't play the correct position. It's funny. All the corners that I've, thought about we're getting traded or now have been traded. It's Michael Carter has been traded. Roger McCreary got traded. I've been trying to trade Alante Taylor from the Saints. But these are all guys who have played the nickel for the last handful of years and

have for most of their career. So Taylor, I think you could make the case, you know, when he was a rookie, he played on the outside. So maybe they could do that. But at this stage,

it feels like Philly has already made enough trades that maybe they're done. I don't know. Yeah. And I think Jaylon Phillips is somebody that obviously an extensive injury history. But when he has been healthy, he's an intriguing player. And so if he could be part of your long-term plans, I think that's only one more layer to this

that you have to like as an Eagles fan. So hopefully we'll have some more stuff on the horizon. If you guys will listen to this on Tuesday morning, we're going to have a live trade deadline show on YouTube today, 3.30 p.m. Eastern on Tuesday. So please be on the lookout for that. We'd love if you guys swung by. Hopefully we will have a bunch more stuff to talk about.

We'll either be talking about the deals that did happen or the deals that did not happen. All right, let's get into our two games from yesterday. Let's start with another massive win for the Seattle Seahawks. They destroy Washington 38 to 14. A fantastic day from the Seahawks offense specifically. Purcher Media, 64.5% success rate, 8.7 yards per play, 21 first downs were 7 of 11 on 3rd down in this game.

That was my main takeaway, going back and rewatching this thing. is just how fucking easy it felt the entire game, no matter what was happening. The amount of third and threes and third and fives that could not have been easier for this team over the course of the day, combined with, you know, we know how much they want to be in heavy personnel

on early downs to throw the ball down the field. That part was still there, but watching them just pick up all of these third and shorts and third mediums over the course of the game, every aspect of the game felt easy for Seattle's offense on Sunday night. They just, like, all of it was so good because I think it was kind of what I mentioned in the, I think the Cardinals game in like week three or four is like this was a game where you could feel how good the scheme was, but also how good just every single player was playing. By this point in the season, we know that Darnold is one of the most accurate quarterbacks in the league. And I think that we know what J.S.N is capable of.

And there were a handful of plays that we can talk about with him. I was really impressed with Tori Horton. Like, Tori Horton was insane in this game. He had, there was an early, I think, second and five where they're an empty and he just, he's the inside slot player on a slant, just beats Trey Amis. off the line of scrimmage. Darnal makes an awesome throw into there. He catches his first touchdown is he actually doesn't really get open, but Darnal just rips it to him on the left side.

Like that's an insane throw, by the way. That throw, it's not even just the throw that he makes. So that's like a little play action boot to the left. The throw and the placement is very good. But Darnold's ability to flip his hips while on the move to even get that throw off. He's doing so many things. He's an athlete, man. And he always has been, right?

I mean, he is a very physically talented person. But I think he's doing so many things that he makes look easy because of how physically talented he is, but those things are not easy. Even the second Torrey Horton touchdown, he's open. But how quickly that ball was out of his hands and the placement on that throw on that corner route, he is just doing so many things that look simple and look smooth. But in reality, he's being asked a lot in those moments and he just happens to be making it look very easy. I mean, speaking of just his ability to kind of whip it, there was,

with five minutes left in the second quarter, he, I think this was another third and short that they converted. They have Kenneth Walker and I think JSN down to the right hand side. And again, empty, which they love on these third and shorts. Like the empty on third and short is like their bread and butter. But Kenneth Walker runs a little bit of a speed out and JSN is running like a curl behind him. Donald wants to throw the out to Kenneth Walker, but he gets pressure off the right side. So he's like, okay, I can't make this so cleanly. Steps up in the pocket and his ability to go from as soon as he knows he wants to make the throw, boom, balls out.

It's just like him hitting that ball to JSN right behind it. He just has the whip-like motion that he can create. He's finally harnessing it in a way that even as recently is two and a half years ago. He just wasn't able to do like this. That play you mentioned, I think there was a third and five. It was about five minutes left in the second quarter that play where Donald hits JSN. It's against cover two. And that's one of the plays that stuck out to me where I'm like, what are you doing?

Like, what as a defense, like what are you doing? that moment. And we talked about this last night, and we went back and watched the Bills game. Throughout that entire game, if you go back and you watch either the all 22 of the dots with that Bill's performance last night against the Chiefs, no one has ever covering grass, ever. Yep, right. In this Washington game,

that's all they're covering is grass. And the linebacker specifically, like, it's just, they're just sitting there in cover too. And Frankie Louvo is just standing in the middle of the field while JSN is like in the hook area wide open and Darnold just flips it to him. The amount of times that

happened in this game where it's third and three or third and five. And you've got guys like on the shockboard looks beautiful. Like the spacing in that zone coverage is exactly what you wanted to look like. But you're not covering anybody. That happened over and over and over again in this game for Washington. There was one later at the end of the half, which I mean, that's really all there is to talk about is the first half in this game because by then it was like 310. Like game is basically cooked.

But there was just under a minute left. Seahawks had the ball again. Washington is in dime because it's in two minutes. So fine. And Reeves is sitting down as like the middle linebacker effectively in what turns into Tampa 2. Seattle has three of their pass catchers to the right side, two receivers in the back. So in Tampa 2, the pole runner should open to the passing strength. But Reeves just kind of like takes one step back and is just standing there.

JSN runs the rap route right into where he should be opening and covering two and Darnold just hits it. Like it was stuff like that all night where guys are just kind of just kind of standing around waiting for stuff to happen. And like you said, covering grass rather than and trying to cover. space and cover people. The Tori Horton touchdown, the second one, that's another play where I'm sitting there being like, what is happening on this play? Like, if you go back and you watch it,

Reeves, again, is super late blitzing on that play. So he's kind of looking to the left. I don't think he knows what knows what the play call is. He eventually gets toward the line of scrimmage. He blitzes, but it's super late and it's from depth. He is nowhere to be found in terms of affecting the quarterback. And it's essentially cover zero behind. him at that point. And so all

what Tori Horton has to do is run that corner route with no safety help over the top. And so you have no safety help. You're not actually running and cover zero because not enough people are blitzing. And so you have the worst of both worlds. And on that same play, Louvo's just kind of standing there

over the surface? Like he's just standing there. And so this defense, the entire game, just felt so out of sorts. And what I noticed on both sides of the ball, and I think this was the entire idea of Seattle going out and hiring Clint Kubiak this offseason. Seattle does a fantastic job of manipulating the defenses that they're playing against. It's the entire point of the offense is that we're going to do all these little things

to try to manipulate you in every way possible. In this game, I think they did a very good job of just subtly getting information with little tiny motions and alignments where, you know, JSN will be in the slot, a motion to the backfield, Darnold will understand it's man coverage and that he runs a little wheel down the right sideline. It's a chunk game. It's very simple stuff, but it's a very good way of understanding. This is how I'm going to pick on the defenses that you're playing,

and I'm going to understand them based on little tiny things that I can do. There's a touchdown to Arroyo is a perfect example of this. It's 12 personnel. The Seahawks are under center, which they do a lot of. It's a straight drop back from under center. And even the funniest thing about these plays is that even without a play fake, you often get the benefits of play action. Someone still bites sometimes.

Because it's just, it's human nature. Like if you are, if you're a defensive back, and I can't remember the guy's name, but it was number 18 on this play, if you're a defensive back and you're sitting there and you're a safety and you have some sort of run defense responsibility out of that look, your thought when the quarterback is under center is they're likely running the ball here. And so he steps forward with his eyes in the backfield, even though there's no play fake and a royal runs right down the scene for a huge chunk gain. And so that's just a small thing where you're not doing anything that's making it harder on you, but you're doing a great job of manipulating the defense. And Washington specifically is a very easy defense to manipulate on multiple different levels.

On the other side of the ball, Seattle's defense is never manipulated. Never. They are, they, you never put them in a position that they don't want to be in. And I think some of that comes from personnel flexibility, right? The ability to play nickel to anything now with Emuonwari and still feel pretty good about your ability to defend the run. But I think some of that is, you know, they're going to play a ton of too high for the most part because they think, they think that they can defend the run out of those looks. And so while Seattle's offense is pulling lever after lever after lever to put you in the

positions they want you to be in, there are very few levers you can pull on offense to do that to Seattle's defense. And I think that's what feels so beautiful about the marriage of both sides of the ball they have going right now. They're just always on top of shit. It's like incredible. And I think what's so cool is that even in the rare instances where you in theory like out chalkboard them, the players are often so.

good that it doesn't matter. Like to me, in the second quarter, there was about four and a half minutes left. They have Emin Worry down to the two tight end side. So they have two tight ends to the right and their two receivers to the left. They end up motioning one of those tight ends from right to left and the backers bump. And so you think,

okay, we've got passing strength into where all the linebackers are. Surely we can throw to this side of the field. But Ernest Jones does an insane job of like melting with Debo Samuel on the crosser that he's running and then coming back into the curl window for I think Chris Moore. so that Daniels can't make either throw. Daniels ends up scrambling for eight yards because he does that sometimes, but just like...

But that's what you have to do. Yes, exactly. You make him make the play. Yes, you make him make the play. And Seattle is going to make you make the play all the time. And Daniels can do that every now and then. But when you make a quarterback, any quarterback, be perfect on every single play,

it's a hard way to live. And I think you saw it in this game for Washington. I am so bummed about them losing Ernest Jones. Yeah, if he has to miss any period of time. He is right now. He is right now, how many coverage linebackers in a non-Fred Warner world are more impactful than Ernest Jones right now today? Like, it's hard to say Rochon Smith because he's had like one or two good games.

But like it's no more than like two or three. Like Ernest Jell, I think every now and then athletically you can beat him. Yes. But in terms of knowing where to be. Awareness and understanding exactly what you're talking. And like the eyes in the back of your head. That's exactly right. He might be the best outside of Fred.

His ability to. Maybe DiMario Davis is pretty insane. His ability to carry certain routes, to pass things off, again, understand what are you trying to do to me? Yeah. He has such a good understanding of what defenses are trying to do to him and to the overall structure of the coverage, no matter what it happens to be. And I think it's so obvious and so jarring because of how bad linebacker play around the NFL is. there's so few guys who play with that level of awareness at the position that it really stands out when someone does.

And so that was my first thought, even in the second half of the game, when Tyrese Knight eventually goes in there and it's Tyrese Knight and Drake Thomas, it's like you can feel the difference in the defense. And last night it was completely out of hand, so it didn't end up mattering. But I think over time, if he has to miss extended time, you're really going to notice what he does for that defense down to down. There's just like, and to me, like, what is so fun about watching him and really all the great cover linebackers, Warner, Demario Davis is his best, Roquan is his best. When they're moving from route to route, it's never choppy or like panicky.

It just feels like it's all happening in one smooth motion. And Ernest Jones is, it's as cool to watch as any other linebacker. It's awesome. Melt is a technical term. Like that is actually like how it's, like you're supposed to melt from those routes. But it looks like that. It's a very appropriate word when you watch how guys do it effectively because it does. feel that smooth and that natural.

Like it just, there is an ease to it all. And I think he is the perfect example of that. Two other defenders specifically I wanted to point out in this game because both of them have missed time. And I think you noticed both of them being back in the lineups at last night. Derek Hall is just, I, the fact that this dude is like their third or fourth edge player and he is just a

ass kicker in every single scenario against the run. Like, I love watching that guy play. You felt him a bunch of. over the course of this game. And the same was true for Devin Wetherspoon. I mean, you're three or four moments over the course of the game where it's just impossible to ignore what he's bringing. He blitzes off the edge to force that interception that O'Connor makes a fantastic play to

come down with that ball. But Devin Wetherspoon makes that play. And then there was a play in the second quarter. It was a third and five. Again, the contrast here between the third and fives for the Seahawks offense and the third and fives are Washington's offense. And so Washington has trips to the left side And Don Witherspoon is in the slot

And so he is in theory On the number three receiver in man it's man coverage And so as the routes are starting to distribute He points to I think it's Kobe Bryant to that side And he's like I you take the vertical here I'm going to take the outbreaker to the flat And it's a third and five It's a four yard completion

He comes downhill and makes a stick one yard short Of the first down marker Washington on the next play gets a false start and they have to punt on fourth and six. And so it's a combination of the awareness, the communication, and then coming downhill to make that tackle in space. And it's just, he's a player you feel.

Like his impact on the defense is kind of undeniable. And so it's really fun to have seen what this looks like again with him and Derek Hall back in the mix. Spoon is just, there's not a lot of corners who move downhill back towards the line of scrimmage. Like, yeah, there was a tackle he had earlier in the game too where they bounce a run out to the right on I think a second and five

and he stops at one yard short of the sticks and then the rest of the defense stops him on the third and one and forces a fourth and one. Washington ends up converting but again it goes back to like you make them make the plays every single time and every single drive and so I think Spoon forcing them into that spot where they were in a third and short that most corners probably don't make that tackle in space

the way that he made it and so I thought that was impressive the hall play that really came up to me was early on in the second quarter Washington tries to run this like toss counter to the right hand side. And Nuwosu, I think, is the front side edge defender. He does a decent job with squeezing it. And J.C.M.

Crossky-Marriott bounces the play back for whatever reason. I don't think he should have. It was second and one. Just take the three yards and move on. But he tries to cut it back straight into Derek Hall. And Derek Hall has Laramie Tunsel like five yards behind the line of scrimmage. Like it's not even close. And so he bumps him up.

End up being a one-yard loss, which actually ends up kind of like swinging the game. Because on the next play, Jaden Daniels tries to scramble on this third and two. Chris Paul gets. called for, I think, a face mask, and so it becomes third and 17, and then you get the Thai-O-Cata pick that we were talking about. It was literally a game swinging play by Derek Hall. I want to talk about just the big picture outlook for Washington's defense in your mind, because this is a group that's being picked on pretty consistently right now.

It's a group that has really run into a bunch of issues over the course of this season. Are we at a spot where they made some bets on aging players? They tried to have some quick fixes, and it's like, all right, let's see if we can get this to competitive territory in 2026. That has not happened, right? Like a lot of the bets that they've made didn't end up working out. Marsha Lattimore tears is ACL in this game. He's out for the season. They'll very, very likely going to move on from him next year. They save $18.5 million against the cap if they cut him. We has no dead money left on that contract. And it does feel like they have young pieces that they've drafted on that set, right? Like they have Trey Amos. They have Mike Usain. We're still

they have various guys in the front seven that they've committed to. And so there are enough pieces to move forward with this. It just seems like this version of the defense, the one that they bet on where it's like we're going to make these three or four, like 30 plus age year old player bets on that side of the ball. We're going to see if we can kind of paper it together for this year and get us to a place where even if we're not a top five defense, we can be a top 12 defense to go along with our offense that makes us a contender.

That did not work. I'm wondering, do you think that there is something endemic to the defense overall that leaves you worried moving forward? Or do you think that it was the series of bets they made for this offseason and this season specifically that ultimately are why Washington's defense is in this place? I think they've made some bad bets because like Dan Quinn's defense is a we're just better than your defense. Like they don't. They're not better than anybody. And they're not better than anybody. That's the problem.

Like I think especially to me like the spine of that defense is just not good enough. The front is pretty solid. And I think every now and then you see some pretty good play out of the defensive tackle. but the linebackers right now are not playing well. Like I do not think Bobby Wagner is playing all that well. I think Frankie Louvo has always been a player that's kind of volatile. And I just think you're feeling more of his not in the right space kind of moments. You're feeling more of his limitations than has benefits right now when you watch this team play 100%.

That's a great way to put it. You're feeling the like, okay, it's cool that we can do some funky stuff with him. But every now and then you're like, oh, we can only do some funky stuff with him. He's not as great as like a traditional stack linebacker. I think you're feeling that. And then to me, this was the concern I had coming in with them. the safeties are not good at all. Like, you know, you joke a lot about, like, Jordan Battle being one of the worst tackle.

Kwan Martin, I think this year has missed a number of really, really rough tackles. Kwan Martin missed the big tackle in this game on Cody White, the 60-yard play action where Cody White, like, that should be tackled at like 30 yards out. And Kwan Martin just, it's not even that he takes a bad angle. He bounces off of Cody White, who like, listen, if you bounce off of like D.K. Metcalf or whoever, fine. But Cody White is like, come on, you should feel the tackle that guy. And so he's just had a number of those moments.

this year that I think have been really frustrating. And so you add that on top of the spine just not being good and not being fast enough in a majority of cases on top of it's a defense that wants to play a lot of man coverage. Trey Amos is a rookie. I don't think Sainer still is playing as well as he did at certain parts last year. And Marshall and Lattimore has been a concern pretty much the entire time that he's been there. So them making this bet on, we're just going to be simple. We're going to play man coverage.

We're going to be faster. We're going to tackle. Well, they're not really any of those things right now. going into next year, we've talked about this a bunch. They're obviously without a second and a fourth round pick because of the Tunsel deal. They have a lot of money in free agency next year potentially. If you look at their cap space, especially if they move on from Latimore, this team has like $102 million in cap space next year.

I'll be curious to see how much of that goes to them trying to retool elements of the defense. Obviously, free agency is not what it used to be. There aren't that many good players available on the market in any given year, but this team is going to have some financial flexibility. and I'll be curious to see how they try to retool on that side of the ball given this version of it falling short. I have two quarterback-centric questions

that I want to ask you. Do you have a problem with Jane Daniels being in the game that late with the score of the way that it was? It happens all the time. And I think we just, like, it's, if the game ended and he didn't get hurt, how much would we be talking about, like, should he have been in the game or not?

But is that a good reason for him to be in the game? Probably not. A lot of guys leave those games unharmed. Is that a good reason to be in the game down 30 in the fourth quarter with your starting quarterback who has been banged up over the course of the year? Precedent is probably a bad reason. But like, we saw earlier this year a team go and win a stupid game that late in the sea. Obviously, it wasn't against the Seattle Seahawks who were a considerably better defense.

But like, I don't know. I think that that happens all the time and he just got very unlucky. My concern would be like, we don't need to be running him that point in the game. Like, if you want a feign trying to win the game with him and still in the lineup, that's fine. It just don't ask him to be a designed runner, especially when one you knew that this was always going to kind of be the thing with him, is that trying to protect him from hits was probably necessary.

And I think this year specifically when he's been as banged up as he is, you should probably try to limit him from that. Yeah, I don't, I'm of two minds about it. Like, I understand that for coaches and I think Dan Quinn specifically, this is one of those like, we compete until it's over sort of things. I think if that's an organizational mindset, your actions should probably align with that more often than not. I also think that you can be smart in some of these moments.

Like when you're down 30 in the fourth quarter, maybe it's time to take the starting quarterback out. I don't think this is some like egregious error or like negligence of responsibility by Dan Quinn. Like some people have been making it out to be over the last 24 hours. My other quarterback question for you coming out of this game, how real do you think the argument that Sam Donald is the MVP of the NFL is through nine weeks? I was trying to figure out what the Sam Donald framing was going to be.

I think he's playing. If I told you, I think that he is a very real case to be the MVP nine weeks into the season. How legitimate do you think that is? I would probably still put a couple of guys ahead of him, but I probably couldn't. I could probably count on. I probably wouldn't get to five guys before I got to San Bernard. I think he's playing really, really well. I do think that he is in some ways protected by how insane the defense is, how well they run the ball in certain spots, how well they're getting to their.

The run game isn't very good. The run game sets up a structure of the offense that makes life easy. consistently done a very good job of getting into that. Because I do still think their pure dropback game when they got to have it on some of these third and longs or in other pure passing scenarios, in pure shotgun five step drop. It's not great.

But I do think that the play action stuff has been insane. He's creating outside of the pocket really well. And then having empty as an answer to like our run game isn't good. So on third and three, we can actually like not run the ball, but use this instead of running the ball. I do think has been effective. So I don't know about MVP right now.

if I had to like put my one, two, three ballot, but like he's, he's probably up there actually. I'm a little bit talking myself into it. We're doing, we're starting midseason awards over the next week or so. We're going to do our version of this next week.

I wouldn't talk you out of it. If you made him your pick, I probably wouldn't talk you out of it. I've just started to kick around potential options. Yeah. I'm doing an award show tomorrow with somebody. And so I was just making some short lists today. And I was like, oh, you know, MVP's kind of weird. No, like I don't, I think right now coming off of the game he had yesterday,

It'd be very weird if you said Patrick Mahomes was the MVP. I could understand an argument for Josh Allen. I think Josh Allen's played very well. If you wanted to have Josh Allen be your MVP, that's totally fine. I think there are a couple other guys in the mix that are probably worth mentioning. We don't have to spoil the whole conversation now. But if it's a crowded field, I don't really have an issue with at least mentioning Sam Darnold here. The Seahawks are number one in passing DVOA.

Number one in the NFL. The problem here, and it's not a problem, but it's the complication. is extricating what his performance has been and the structural advantage is given to him by a Seattle offense that I think has done a very, very good job of easing the burden on their passing game overall. That's always like the eternal question when it comes to how well is a quarterback playing

versus the circumstances that he's being placed in. And I do think that Seattle has done a phenomenal job of getting teams into base defense, using a lot of play action, just making things easier on their quarterback in every way possible. and their offensive line and their receivers. At the same time, I think that if you are trying to pull apart what his role in all of this has been independent of all of that,

I think he's played really, really, really well. And so, again, because there's no, like, clear, clear answer right now, I don't think we can really have an MVP conversation without at least mentioning the fact that he probably is in the discussion. I kind of agree with that because I think when we've done this with, Like I think it's pretty obvious that he is getting some amount of help from the way that things are schemed up. At the same time, I think when we've had previous MVP, quote, candidates who have gotten some help from the offensive scheme, it was like 2018 Jared Gough or like what Tua has been in certain times. And that to me felt like, okay, the offense is super productive, but this is still limited in some way by the quarterback and they're just getting the most out of it.

This doesn't feel like that to me to Sam. The quarterback isn't what's limiting it. No, there is like Sam Donald isn't limiting anything. I would say, again, he's not like Dak Prescott as a pure dropback passer, but everything else is so good that it's like if he's fine there, and he has been, he's like middle of the pack as a dropback passer. I want to be clear, he's not like shitting the bed when he has to do that stuff. But then when the rest is like truly elite MVP numbers best in the league,

I'm at least willing to entertain the argument. He's been pretty damn good. And I also think that with a lot of those, you know, you look at some of these other guys who have been, quote, unquote, like system quarterbacks in play action heavy schemes, a lot of that is like schemed up crossers over the middle of the field where the throws are being catered to as a quarterback. The high level throws that he is making, he is making as many high level throws as any quarterback in the NFL this year. So even if there are some structural guardrails that have helped him here, I still think that the splashy plays that we have seen from him along with the down-to-down consistency, it's a combination unlike most quarterbacks in the NFL right now.

Like the combo of those two things, it is a very short list of guys who are pulling. that off in this moment. And again, he is doing stuff when the plays break down. Like those previous, the super scheme guys, the early Jared Gough, Tua Tungavilo, whoever it was, when the play broke down, it was over. And so it was all clearly whatever the scheme was able to give them. Donald, again, maybe he's not Josh Allen, but he is making some really, really nice play. I mean, the one that we mentioned, we were talking about the game where he's rolling to his left

and finds Tori Horton. That is, if you're going to be in the MVP conversation, you've got to be able to make some of those starts. And he's made them pretty consistently this year. We don't need to dig too super far into this, but I feel like we just, have mentioned his name in passing as it relates to this game. And maybe it's because our eyes have started to glaze over because he's doing this every single week.

JSN is one of the 10 best offensive players in the league at this point. Yeah. At least, yeah, probably. Like, how many individual non-quarterbacks in the NFL would you rather have than JSN right now? I don't know. Like, Jamar, Justin Jefferson. A couple tackles.

Yeah, probably a couple tackles. Like I'd probably maybe Pena Sewell, Tristan Wirt. But it's really, I mean, like, I'm already starting to run out of guys. Like, I'd say the number probably lands somewhere like 10 to 12. Yeah, like maybe CMC, if you can tell me he's healthy for sure. But like outside, it's definitely not 10. Like, you're not getting to double digits, I don't think. If we were having the discussion, he would at least be on like the short list and be one of the first ones off if we were actually digging into it, which is insane.

Like, even as somebody who liked him last. year. And I just like his game. Stylistically, I'm very into the type of player that he is. What he is doing right now, I don't think even the staunchest Jackson Smith and Jigba believers could have predicted that that's the sort of discussion that we would be having about him, right? Like, speaking of awards, you can't have, I think right now, spoiler alert, I think he's

the offensive player of the year right now. It's like, I think Jonathan Taylor has a really good case for it. But I think with running back specifically, there is so much work that the offensive of why it has to do to dictate success on the ground, even though Jonathan Taylor is making the most of that situation. JSN's success is completely removed from any structural things Seattle's offense is doing. He is the structure. He is it.

He is the passing offense. And so I legitimately think he has the strongest case right now to be the offensive player of the year in a league where Jonathan Taylor's going nuclear and we have all of those other receivers. And that is just a wild place to have reached halfway through the season. His only other competition, really, a receiver in terms of putting up the numbers, obviously, you know, Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chaser awesome was Pooka Nakua, but he missed time. And so J.S.N, yes. And he's still aimed up, right?

Exactly. Jayeson is on pace for 1,900 receiving guards this year. And so the production is outlandish, but then you actually watch the bones of it. And what he is doing is just absolutely insane right now. And so if you guys can't tell, I'm having one hell of a time watching the Seattle offense every single week, which is just not a place I necessarily thought we'd be. All right. let's take our first quick break and then come back with a little Jags Raiders talk. The Jags knock off the Raiders, 30 to 29 in overtime.

Just a fun game. And I actually thought outside of the two picks, one from each guy that were pretty ugly, I thought both quarterbacks played pretty well in this game. I enjoyed watching both quarterbacks in this game. These two guys at their best, the ability to drive the ball to pretty much every area of the field, but especially like the intermediate area of the field. They do a really good job of it when they're on. And I thought we saw a lot of those moments from both of these guys

over the course of this game. I'm glad you put it that way. Both of these guys were good for like 85% of plays and both through one of the dumbest interceptions that you've ever seen. The one that Trevor makes, there's not even really any sort of excuse or explanation for it. He's on the goal line and he's rolling right. And Diami Brown is double cut.

Like there's no shot that you can throw this ball into the window. And he's just like, I'm going to try to throw it anyway and forces it and that gets picked off. And then the Gino one, he's just late throwing to the flight against cover two, which he's played in this league for over a decade. He knows not to do that and he makes that mistake.

So just two baffling interceptions by these guys, but I thought otherwise they made a ton of really, really nice throws. So just like being able to move defenders or like you said, ripping some throws, like especially some of the outbreakers Trevor threw in this game were insane. He had won to Diami Brown on a second in 18 after a false start and a failed like little swing pass that put them back that deep.

He had one to Brian Thomas Jr. On a third and 20 that if Brian Thomas Jr. lays out for that one and goes for it, that is converted. He puts that one on him on the sticks and he doesn't grab it. That is like my frustration with this offense is every time I talk about Trevor. People are like, well, the offense is talented and they have Brian Thomas Jr. I'm like, he does that every week.

What are we talking about? That was one of the more frustrating plays of the entire weekend and going back and rewatching things. It's a small play. It's a third and 20. I'm sure no one would ever think about it again. the plate, it's a deep comeback to the right side on 3rd and 20. Brian Thomas Jr. gets his hands on at about a yard short of the sticks.

He should catch that ball. Absolutely, you should catch that ball. And it should be either a 3rd and 20 conversion or a 4th and 1 that you get to from a 3rd and 20, and that ball hits the turf. It is really, I mean, going back and rewatching this game, I don't think this is a crazy thing to say, especially in a world where Brent and Strange is hurt. Parker Washington is like easily the most reliable receiver on the Jacksonville Jaguars.

which is a crazy place to have landed halfway through the year when you think about what Brian Thomas Jr. was supposed to be in year two. It's such a bizarre spot for them to be. I like him. I think Parker Washington's a real player. Yeah, he shouldn't be your best receiver, but he's like a genuinely good player.

I like what he can do for them. He's tough. He can work from the slot. Like, he's just, I think that he has been really good for them. And some of the throws that Trevor was able to get to him. I mean, he had a third and nine conversion against that funky little pressure look

where they look like they're pressuring from too high. they roll down into this one robber coverage and he finds Parker Washington on this third and nine. I thought that was a really good play. There was, by the way, this play was in that sequence, so I have to talk about it. In the middle of the second quarter,

the Jaguars grieved Trevor Lawrence like eight different times. First of all, he hits the seam route to, I think it was Hunter Long. That gets called back by a Patrick McCarrie holding call. So now they get to second and 20, and then he hits Brian Thomas Jr. on a deepout. And then that's when they hit the third and nine conversion to Parker, Washington.

Right after that, Trevor rips one over the middle to Diami Brown. He doesn't want to bring it in because I think he's a little scared that he's going to get hit, which he was going to. He was going to get smack. And then on a second and 15 right after that, I think it was Johnny Munt gets called for an illegal shift because he's like moving forward at the snap as he's motioning right to left. And then on the next play, Trevor tries to go up and check the protection. And as he's walking up, center snaps the ball. So that's already the play's dead because the quarterback can't be moving as you're snapping. And then he completes a ball against the blitz to Parker Washington anyway.

But of course it doesn't count like that whole middle of the second drive. I was losing my mind. That by the way, that drive ends with the Brian Thomas Jr. drop on 3rd and 20. Like that entire drive made me lose my mind. Okay. I'm glad you framed it this way because this is a fun game. Right. Cam Little hits a 68 yard field goal.

Crazy. We go to overtime. I thought that the Jags offense. thought the quarterback played pretty well. I thought the run game looked good. Oh, yeah. I think they did a really good job of getting Travis E.T.N. on the edge multiple different times.

I think he did a lot of really nice work in space. What do we make of this? Like, they needed to go to overtime to beat the Raiders because of how well the Raiders' offense played for a good chunk of this game. And a lot of those same issues that have plagued the Jags all year when it comes to some of the details on offense, some of the pre-snap stuff. So this is a fun win for the Jaguars.

But, like, if I'm thinking about this team, in the broader scope of like the AFC wild card picture. I'm not sure I leave this one feeling any better about where they are right now. Dude, is that unfair? No, that's kind of like the whole Jaguar season is like, okay, they're getting away with some of this stuff.

I don't really know what to make a lot of this. I mean, it's funny that both this game and the Chiefs game, where they won and beat the Chiefs, it's like, I'm still not sure like what all do I really take away from all this. Like I, the offense, I was impressive because honestly, this Raiders defense, we can look at the record and look at all that stuff. the Raiders defense isn't that bad. Like I think it's actually starting to get put together a little bit well.

I would love to see Patrick Graham with like an average level of NFL talent. Oh, they'd be like a top five defense with what he's able to do. And so it just, they're incredibly frustrating to me. But again, I thought the offense outside of the penalties and just shooting themselves and the foot with stuff like, they played well. Also thought it was interesting. A lot of Cole Van Lennon as a sixth offensive lineman in this game. He played a number of sense.

I think he played 25 snaps in this game or 25 total jumbo snaps. I think you played a couple extra in relief for other guys who were injured. So I thought that was interesting. And so they did some cool stuff. You got the quarterback playing well. You got ETN having some really good effort on a number of these plays. It's just the defense failing them against a Raiders offense that has not been able to move it on anyone. That was a part of it to me.

That was really, really frustrating. Where do you think the Raiders defense ranks in defensive DVOA so far this season? I'm cheating because I looked this up, but it's like 17th, right? It's 13th. 13th. Really, I thought it was a little bit lower than that. They are 13th. It's insane.

With the players that they have is absolutely ridiculous. And then this is true, been true of Patrick Graham for a long time. Like, he's just a very good defensive football coach. And so I don't think any of us should be shocked by this. But when we talk about defensive coaches getting the most out of their talent in the NFL, he is somebody's name that should be mentioned very consistently. And again, some of it can be schematic stuff. But the thing to me is like, he gets just random, mid-level players to like really play their

asses off. I thought Alandon Roberts in this game had a number of huge plays. I'm sure that warms your heart to say. It really does. There was one where they run this funky little the Jaguars had like a wildcat. Eton was the wildcat quarterback and they run like a suite for Diommy Brown to the left hand side. Walker Little should be able to like

scoot up to the second level and take out Alandin Roberts. Alandon Roberts just smokes him and gives the running or Diommy Brown in that case nowhere to go. I thought that was an awesome play. But Isaac Polamau, the safety, he's like their box safety guy. That guy plays hard as he is awesome.

Like he is a really, really cool player. And so he doesn't give you a whole lot in coverage, but just like that whole identity of like, all right, guys are going to play fast.

They're going to hit. They're going to take back space and really make offenses earn it. I think you can feel that from them. And it's cool to watch when you have Max Crosby making a number of plays. Adam Butler is a player who will gamble a little bit as a defensive line.

He'll get in the back foot. He's a good player. I've always liked him as like a penetrating defensive tackle. I've always had like a soft spot for Adam Butler. When it was him and John Jenkins and Max Crosby like two years, ago. I'm like, this is a weird collection

of players, but they're actually pretty good. They're one of those like just for guys like us when you tune in on a Tuesday afternoon. You're like, I kind of want to watch that defensive line. And Butler's been one of those guys for a long. And he was in the backfield like five times this game. Like he's just they're making it work with that side of the wall. We've gotten like 10 minutes

into this discussion and I don't think you've mentioned Brock Bowers's name, which the odds on that were off the board in Vegas. The word identity I think comes to mind in discussing Brock Bowers in this game because when I thought about what the Raiders offense was going to be coming into the year. I thought it was going to be Brock Bowers gets 15 targets a game.

They figure out every way they can to fold Ascenti into the game plan. You get a certain reliable level of quarterback play from Gino. Let's see how it goes. And this is one of the first games, maybe the first game since week one, when I watched this team and felt like that was what they were trying to do offensively. Yeah, I 100% agree. I mean, it was funny. I think Bill Barnwell actually posted something on

blue sky where it's like three plays that are the same. It's literally just Brock Bowers catching a ball like over the middle against zone coverage, making a locoon miss and then he goes on for a handful of number. But it's the same thing over and over and like they really were able to target Brock Bowers over the middle of the field. And I thought they did a really good job of that. Like part of it was just Brock Bowers making some insane plays knowing where to sit. And I think his connection with Gino Smith since he's come back has been really, really good. But then Bowers is just, he just moves in a way that other guys at that position really don't. Some guys might be able to go up for the ball

a little bit better because they're bigger, but he is just truly a unique threat in terms of you can put him in the slot. He's a really good guy. You can motion across the line of scrimmage. He just, in this game, Gino's ability to pretty fearlessly just be like, that guy's going to get to the spot and I can rip it. I mean, inside the two minute,

when they really absolutely needed it, two minute at the end of the game, the Jaguars are playing a little bit of a one rat coverage, and Ola Koon is the rat player sitting in the hole. Gino Smith steps up a little bit to the right. And so he draws the linebacker down. And he has Brock Bowers coming on a slant from right to left, right behind it. He has to rip that thing past Olican's earhole. And he just trust like Bowers is fast enough to get there, I swear. And he does. And he puts it on him and

Bowers races to the ends. And like he just, if that connection can keep can keep working in the run game can come along, which it kind of has a little bit in the past. It's better than it was the first month. If they can get that combination down. And I also like them trying to tap into the screen game a little bit, right? Like, I mean, that's how many different ways can we devise to get the ball in his hands in just advantageous spots, even if the run game isn't working? And so the fact that he had five targets in this game, obviously scores a touchdown on the screenshot on the screen.

That's the type of stuff you want to see a little bit more of. The Embower finishes this game with three touchdowns. I struggle to figure out which was the most impressive one. I mean, the one he catches on the pile on is just a ridiculous play to the point where Greg Newsom is celebrating because in his mind, there's no way. he could have caught that ball for a touchdown. But I understand that. He stabs it with one hand.

The one he scores from the right side on the crosser, though, where he's in the stack with Jacobi Myers. You see him come off the line of scrimmage, and Jacobi Myers has a great job of clearing out a little bit of space as the kind of the point man in that stack. The move that Bowers puts on the corner to sell him going to the flat before taking it back inside, when you say he just moves differently than other people at the position,

that's the play that I'm thinking about. where like you watch him sell that route. And it's like he's one of those guys where I think sometimes it's hard to articulate what makes him the player that he is. And then you watch a play like that and it's like, I don't know if I can explain it, but this is it. Right? Like this is the moment where you can tap in

and kind of understand what makes him as special as he is. I mean, truly like from a lot of other tight ends, even if they're good route runners for a tight end, they're still often winning because they're a little bit bigger than you and they're able to push you around a little bit when at the top of routes. Bowers, you watch him, it looks like Keenan Allen or something. Like it just, his ability to be so smooth,

get so low, be so explosive and have a little bit of sauce at the top of his routes. Like he just, he's a really special player in terms of getting open. He's incredibly fast when he does have the ball in his hands, especially when they can get him going already where he's already moving on some of these crossers and stuff. Like he's just, he's a very special player. And his ball skills are phenomenal. Like again, he might not be the longest. I'm going to go up in the air for the ball, but if it's in his vicinity, he's going to find a way to get it. Like, he's just, I don't know, man.

He's a phenomenally special player. I love watching him and I'm glad he looks healthy because even when he, he just did not look right. He hasn't played a month and a half. Yeah, and he didn't look right early in the season, really when he was fully out there. Like, he just, for him to be what he's been doing is awesome. His last game was September 28th against the Bears

and he wasn't healthy when he was playing back then. Yeah. Does he remind you of anyone? Like, if you had to compare him stylistically to any other tight end that you've watched, Because when I was watching this game back over again this morning, I was watching it and I was like, I don't know who I would compare him to in like the way that he moves at the position. I don't think there really is like an analogous one for one.

I don't think so either. Because like I'll think a lot of people, the natural inclination is like, oh, faster slot kind of tight end. He's like Travis Kelsey. But they're not like that. They're not like that at all. They're very, very different.

They're very, very different players. And so I really don't know if I can remember a tight end who is built like him, who is at that smooth, who is that explosive, who has the ball skills the way that he does, because usually those smaller tight ends, even if they have a lot of the fast movement skills the route running,

they really just don't magnetize to the ball the way that he does. Like, he just, he truly is a unique threat in terms of what he can do. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then get back with a couple of your guys's sad voicemails from week nine. It's time for Monday morning with the U from week nine.

Each week we like to solicit, you know, a couple of voicemails, a couple calls from people who are going through it based on what their NFL team did to them in a given week. We got a couple on tap today. Beller, hit us with the first one. Let's do it. Hey, Robert. I'm a Washington commanders fan

just watching the end of an absolute beat down at the hand of the Seahawks and just watched Jaden Daniels' arm bend in ways that feels like only a Washington football player's arm could bend.

And after last season feeling like things had fully, you know, finally turned around for this franchise, I just need to hear that it's, it's not over for Jaden Daniels and his time. Tell me it's not our future. That's all I need to hear. Big fan of the show. Thank you. I, here's what I deeply relate to this, right? Like if you're a franchise that has been starving for any sort of quality quarterback play, any sort of consistency, any sort of legitimacy, going from what it look like at the end of last season to what it feels like now and now facing another potentially four to six week stretch where Jane Daniels isn't going to be out there, I can't imagine how hard that has been as a Washington fan.

Even when you've got all the scars that you have developed over the last 20 or so years, I'm sure this has been a tough slug. we got a long, long, long way to go with this, right? I just said this team is probably $100 million in cap space next year. You have some like real building block pieces that you can feel good about, especially on the offense. You know, Connerley will likely be better next year. Tunsell is playing really, really good football. You've got some pieces on the interior.

The receiving core has been banged up the entire season. You have Terry locked up for the next several years now after that extension. He's hopefully going to be back healthy next year. we've seen this happen where guys missed the entire off season. It just really does, especially at that position, disrupt the season that you have. Consistently, we've seen this year over year over year. And so I think that you have enough pillars in the building right now

combine with resources moving forward, combined with the quarterback that even if I think we've realized some of his imperfections this year and some of the limitations that he still has, is absolutely a guy you can get very, very excited about. And so, listen, this team made a bunch of. bunch of bets this off season to try to shortcut their timeline because they thought that they were close and I think that's human nature after the season that you had last year.

I don't think they leverage their future to such a degree that you should feel really pessimistic about what's going to happen moving forward. I think that they just made a series of bets this off season that were probably a little bit more aggressive than they should have been. You're unlucky or on pretty much every single level over the first half of the year. This is what it feels like. by no means is it over, it's just been kind of disappointing. Yeah, I don't think it's, it just feels a lot worse because Daniels keeps getting hurt.

Like if he was healthy, that is maybe something to worry about that I think because that was the worry coming in, right? Is that he's a 195 pound quarterback who plays like he wants to get hit, which is a little bit concerning. Because, you know, people have made the comparisons to him being Lamar Jackson-esque in terms of what he can do as a ball carry. But like, Lamar never gets hit. You can probably count on one hand the amount of times that as an NFL person, player. Lamar Jackson has gotten smoked and it happens with Jane Daniels consistency. So I think that is something that you could be concerned about. But all the other stuff, like you said, is stuff that we probably thought was going to happen. They probably weren't

going to hit on as many deep balls as they did last year. Like, especially because a lot of them were just kind of pure go balls, like probably just not going to be as consistent as you were with that last year. Probably not going to convert on as many crazy four downs as you did last year, even if Jaden Daniels was playing well. And then I think that we knew, even though it wasn't a luck thing with the defense, I think we were both a little bit skeptical about some of the bets that they were trying to make on that side of the ball. And for the most part, they've gone about as poorly as they could have. And so it's just this combination of all that stuff where I think if Daniels was playing and maybe was consistently healthy and was able to get into a rhythm,

they're probably around a 500 team by the end of it. And they'd probably be fine, which is what we kind of thought they would be with some of the regression stuff. It's just that now that he's heard, it feels so much more dire. I've seen teams do this. I think we've made a lot of comparisons this season. to the Texans and what the Texans did in their N plus one off season after getting C.J. Stroud. And I think the Texans after that offseason tried to do a little bit of unraveling, right? Like they tried to pull some of that back. They started trading for more assets.

They're like, all right, maybe we need to get on a slightly different timeline again. It's kind of how I feel about Washington. And that's kind of, that's the frustrating part about not having all of their picks next year, is that you actually probably should be at a point now where you get back onto a more methodical team building pace. because you probably do need like a true ace pass rush or somewhere along the way. You probably do need another outside corner. You do need another receiver. And we probably knew that coming into the year.

When they did what they did and when they made some of the moves that they did, it was always going to be threading a needle that was going to be tough to pull off. We talk about this all the time with individual units. Can you just get to average? Well, if that's what you're shooting for, it can always be worse than that. And so it does speak to kind of the fragility of what you're trying to build when that's the mindset. And I think on defense specifically,

that was the mindset for Washington this year. And so I think now you kind of pull it back a little bit and it's no longer, well, can we just get to average because we already have something that we think is like championship ready. I don't think it was necessarily misguided to think that way. I think this offseason, you need to like really take a step back,

take a breath and realize that this probably isn't the way that we should be thinking about things for the next couple off seasons here. We still have a second year. your quarterback. Exactly. It was, I kind of like had said some stuff about this during the off season,

but it was like, the offense obviously was like a top five in terms of scoring offense, top five last year. And I think they just kind of went into it. It will like, if we're just never going to die. And that's always the, yeah,

and it's like, man, it's just like you need a lot of things to go right for that to be the case. Even if you're trying to stave off that regression with, again, the tonsil, the tuntil trade, all that stuff.

It just, it rarely goes that smoothly and smoothly. And so, again, when you get some of the quarterback injuries, defense not playing as well as you would hope that's how you end up in the season where some of this stuff, it feels like you're so much worse. But again, I really don't think they're like that much worse than last year.

It's just all the luck stuff plus the injury that they're just worse. All right. Let's get our next one here, Bellar. Hey, guys. This is Russell and Houston. I get to enjoy yet another day of the Texans giving me a come from a head loss with the same problems over and over again. And I still can't figure out whether Nick Cayley is a problem or not. I trusted you guys with his hire, and I'm still seeing the same issues over and over again with some of his decision-making,

but I'd like to point this higher up the chain. Nick Serio's got to go. This is his roster. He's put it together, and you guys have documented over and over again the failures and now watching his offensive line fall apart. It's clear as they his responsibility in it. But I'd also think, that Texans

might be pointing their pointing their fingers at Demico Ryan's you know if he just wasn't such an asshole to the media about clear critiques

of his team maybe it'd be easier to kind of let him slide but his attitude at the podium makes it hard to ignore his place and all this and I'm just wondering

how far up the chain changes are going to happen because this season is toast Thanks, guys. Where are you at with the Texans offense right now? So I actually thought really in this game they looked fine. So that's kind of, this is where I am with this, is that I actually do think, and obviously the game against Seattle a couple weeks ago is one of those like light the tape on fire games.

It's embarrassing. It happens on a national stage. I totally get that. When you watch what they looked like last week and then you watch what they look like over the first couple drives when CJ Stroud was playing in this game, it's like, okay, like there's actual progress being made here. And so the Texans are right now, they were 19th an offensive DVOA coming into this game.

And then Davis Mills plays over the course of the entire game against one of the best defenses in the league and they can't even move the ball. I do think, like, with the quarterback, with the first year play caller, with some of the receiving talent they have, which has been banged up for a good chunk of this season, I don't think this is like some lost cause

over a multi-year period. I think it is very, very, very hard to build a functional offense with an offensive line of the quality that the Texans are dealing with right now. That's why, like Russell's saying, I think this starts at the top with Nick Casario, like this to me, more than anything else,

because the defense is not a problem, right? Like, the defense is awesome. I'm absolving him of crimes. That's kind of what I mean here. It's like even if maybe you've got some qualms with the way that he's carrying himself in some of these moments and with some of the decisions

that they've made with the staff, that's fine. Like, you take that to get what you're getting on defense right now with that entire group. I think that, you know, we've talked about this before, but it's worth harping on again. The hubris that went into the way that they built the offensive line is inexcusable. Like, it is inexcusable to be like, this is the approach we're taking with this group will be fine.

It is not fine, and it has not been fine. And so I do think that they're working through so many issues with the quality of that group that you're already putting yourself so far behind the eight ball. And I still feel like over the last couple weeks, when Stroud has been in there, They are like slowly making progress with this group. And so I can understand that it's been incredibly frustrating.

When you fire the offensive coordinator and the offense still looks bad, I've been there a million times. I get why that's hard. I don't think this is like a loss cause quite yet. Let's see what happens when the quarterback gets back. Let's see what happens when the receivers are healthy in the second half of the season. And let's see what sort of work this entire group and the staff can do with those players by the time we get to the end of this thing

before we make any like sweeping declarations about how the next couple of years of Houston Texans football have to go. That's where I'm at. Like I think even early in this game, obviously they only come away with three points on their first two drives, but part of that is they missed the field goal

on the first drive. But like, you know, I thought they did a good job of like they felt like they had something to where they could just target outside the numbers because I think obviously with Sir Tann out the game, it's like, okay, maybe can we just take some one-on-ones? And I thought CJ Stroud made a couple of good throws,

had a couple of huge like third and fourth down conversions on that first drive. Like he was playing fine. I think you've seen some of the young skill players start to step up. When Noel has been in the game, he's had a couple of good plays. Higgins has had a couple of good plays. Woody Marks when he was healthy, has had a couple of good plays. Like them getting that, I think is nice.

I again fall back to this being mostly a Nick Casario problem. And like Russell said, you know, I'm not sure Nick Cayley was good. You know, we kind of bought it. I'm not sure he's good either. But I don't like he's not the problem. Again, like you said, when you have an offensive line this bad, I don't know how you're supposed to build an offense out of it. Here, and this may sound like excuse making,

and I can completely understand that if people are going to listen to it and come to that conclusion. If you just think about the practical realities of what the offensive staff for them looks like, I think that you've created an even higher degree of difficulty for this to be successful early on. Let's take any other offensive play caller that has come into the league this year that has maybe had a little bit more, a little bit quicker success. I'd throw like Ben Johnson out there. I'd throw a couple other guys out there.

like Clint Kubiak, right? So Clint Kubiak comes in. Clint Kubiak has an offensive line coach that he brought with him. He has a staff that is mostly his own making, right? And he's done this before. You have Ben Johnson comes in where the staff is kind of pieced together with other guys, but he's had a singular vision that he has executed as a play caller. Nick Haley has never been a play caller in the NFL before. He is coming from a varied background with a bunch of different influences. And if you look at the staff in Houston, it's the same staff. that they had before.

The only guys they fired were Bobby Sloick and Chris Dros are the offensive line coach. So they elevated Cole Popovich, who was the assistant offensive line coach in Houston. So even that isn't like a new person. And then Nick comes in and I think he hired like one more outside guy to be on that offensive staff. And so you're a first year play caller who has never done this before

without like a vision that you can kind of come in and just like plop down and say this is what we're going to do on offense. You're trying to figure out what they used to do that work. out well, what you can still incorporate. You're like coming to this like sort of arranged marriage between all of these ideas. And it's not to absolve like some of the issues that they've had. I think situationally there have been some problems with the decision making, all of that. But I think this is like the perfect example of when you look at all of the circumstances

combined for an offense when you include the offensive line issues, they were not going to hit the ground running on day one. Like this is probably going to be something that takes through an entire. season and then into a first off season for you guys to actually figure out who do we want to be like this group with these players how are we going to get to a place where we feel good about the offense that we've created because I still think they're in the process of creating what that offense is right now. Yeah, you've started to see it again.

Like they have tried to do stuff that they weren't doing in week two. Like just with, you know, it's different personnel trying to get to different stuff. And so I appreciate what they're trying to do. And yeah, when you're trying to piece all that stuff together with new staff, first time play caller on top of truly offensive line like 32 out of 32. Maybe not that bad. I would say it's bottom three. There's a couple of really stinky offensive lines in the league.

But it is certainly not one of the best ones. And we knew going in that somebody had to be a bottom out three offensive line. And Houston was as good a candidate as any to be one of those. And so again, like this to me falls more on Nick Casario. And, you know, we had a conversation this offseason of like, is Nick Casario a good GM? And I would still contend that like outside of the offensive line, he's generally done a lot of stuff well. I think that's complicated a little bit by a lot of the best players being on defense and that Damico Ryan's obviously has a huge influence on that.

But the offensive line being such an egregious miss almost kind of like disqualifies literally everything else, especially when you have a young quarterback who you thought was good. Like to give him that kind of protection, I think is pretty damning. I'm looking at just offensive coordinators around the NFL and trying to find a case that I think is similar to. to this one. And I think last year, maybe as an example where we had some guys that really did hit the ground running in ways that were really impressive. But even some of those guys have been play callers in the league before. I think Cliff Kingsbury is like that. Where you have, you know, he comes in a little bit late in the process. He's kind of paired with these guys he's never really worked with before. And that offense is really good, really quickly. But even he had called plays in

in the NFL before. I think Liam Cohen is maybe the best example of this, right? Like Liam Cohen comes in. They bring in a new offensive line coach. He's his first time as an NFL play caller. And they are really, really good over the course of last year. But I think those examples are like fewer and further between them we like to admit. I think a lot of the time, this takes time. And I think that's what we're seeing with the Texans offense right now. All right. That is all we've got for today.

Like I mentioned, if you are listening to this on Tuesday, November 4th at any point in the morning or early afternoon, we have a live trade deadline recap show coming your guys' way at 3.30 p.m. Eastern. So please be on the lookout for that. Very excited about that. Me, Dave, Derek, breaking down all the moves that did or did not happen before the deadline on Tuesday. For now, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you very soon.