The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - What makes a good special teams coordinator?

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

You read that right, TAFS listener, we’re talking special teams on today’s episode. Also, running back age vs wear and tear, what we would do as NFL Commissioner for a day, our favorite teams with losing records, the “Kyle Orton” tier of quarterbacks, and much more. Dave Helman and Derrik Klassen dive into the mailbag again on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Co-Hosts: Derrik Klassen and Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerSenior Producer: Katy DuffySocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Dave on X: @DaveHelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Dave Hellman. Robert Mays is out this week, but never fear. Derek Classen and I have another full mailbag for y'all, as usual, just an amazing batch of questions. Like every week, I wind up feeling bad about the ones we didn't get to because the questions are so good. They're bound to inspire 10-minute arguments about various esoteric things. Another just great mailbag. There's no telling where it's going to live.

lead you. We talked about our favorite teams that finished with losing records. We talked about backup quarterbacks that are too bad to be starters, but too good to be backups. We talked about whether we'd rather have the best team of all time with a terrible quarterback or an all time great quarterback with a mid roster around him. My gosh, did we talk about special teams? All my special teams, sickos, get ready for that in the midpoint of the show. We covered a lot of ground, suffice to say. So let's get right to it. Derek and myself answering all your questions right up next. All right, as I said, no Robert today, but the format remains unchanged.

And that means we've got Michael Beller here, the dulcet tones of Michael Beller reading the questions for the mailbag. Beller, let's get this thing going. Let's get right into it. Derek, I can't wait to hear your answer for this one. Behind the curtain, you guys, when I gave Derek and Dave the questions for this, this very first question from Dave, Derek was like, hell yeah, first one's a banger. I had an answer in 0.46 seconds. So I can't wait to hear what it is. Dave's question, what are your favorite teams in a particular year?

So, for example, the 2010 Seahawks of all time that had a losing record. Why or what made them uniquely stand out despite their record? Derek, what is it? 2017 Jets. They went 5 and 11, but they had an offense led by 38-year-old Josh McCown, who was just chucking ball. all over the field to Robbie Anderson, Robbie chosen now, but Robbie Anderson at the time, and Jermaine Curse. And funny enough, actually bringing back a 2025 character, John Morton was their offensive coordinator, and they were a very like air raid inspired, just like chuck it all over the

field offense. And were they good? No, but watching a 38-year-old Josh McCown who had, you know, it had been a while since he'd been a starting quarterback in the league at that point, just kind of throwing passes all over the yard, firing them in. Like, I thought it was a really fun offense to watch. They were definitely an oddity in that year and they really weren't a threat, but every time I turned them on, they were one of my like weird, when I have extra time on a Wednesday afternoon watching film, I was like, I want to see what the Jets offense is doing. You're a sick, sick man, dude. Go back and watch Josh McCown just ripping it all over the field. It was such a fun offense. I just love that in, yeah, I got the message on Slack too.

Like you said in less than a second, you knew which team you were going to choose. And that team was a Todd Bulls Jets team. Mm-hmm. They were, listen, listen, I just, I even, I actually saw I went back earlier this week on my just like personal little substack. I wrote about some of the rookie liebackers. And I forgot that the picture I put for that website is 2017 Josh McCown because I love that season so much. God, dude, looking through the. pro football reference for the 2017 jets first of all we're fresh off of hall of very good

this was toward the end of matt fortay's career matt fortay the new york jet germane curse led that team in receiving austin safarian jenkins that's a name i have not thought about in quite some time this is this is a poll my guy i think like belal powell was like one of their lead running it's a weird team man it's a weird team and it was not a good one but i enjoyed them i can always count on you to go into the weeds because really like if we're talking about a team with a losing record it's got to be for me a team that made a little bit more of an impact on the league at large especially like when you when you cover the entire league it can be hard to maintain a connection or a sense of fondness for a team that wins like five or six games i had i had two and i think

there's for me there's two types of teams that fit this category one is a a bad team that went surprisingly far like the 2010 seahawks and had that cool moment in the playoffs or a team that was bad but you could see the flashes of great things to come so a team that's worth shouting out for me is the 2018 bills just because you had it's a good one you had baby deer Josh allen running around like just like a baby deer let loose in somebody's kitchen, just breaking all the China, running around, scored 18 touchdowns for a six-win-bills team. That was like the end of Lishon McCoy's career.

Just a fun, bad team. And my vivid memory from the 2018 Bills was week three, they beat the Vikings. And the Vikings were coming off of that trip to the NFC title game in 2017. So it was, you know, it was supposed to be an easy Vikings win. And it was, it's the most memorable survivor, survivor pool bloodbath I can ever think of where like everybody was on the Vikings to win this game. And the bills just went up to Minnesota and beat him up. And Josh Allen did Josh Allen things.

That was the game where he had like the crazy. I think it was like a third and long run where he was like diving at the sticks. And yeah, you got a very early look at what Josh Allen was going to be about. Yeah, that's a good one for what is to come, like of Josh Allen just doing shit like that. My other answer that I wanted to shout out is similar to the 2010 Seahawks, a team that won a bad division. What a saga the 2020 Washington football team was? Yeah. Dude, that team was, that defense was actually kind of cool.

And some of that front was actually really cool. I mean, Chase Young won defensive rookie of the year, which feels like it happened a lifetime ago. you had John Allen and Duran Payne doing their thing. The front was a lot of fun. Obviously, quarterback was a saga. Alex Smith comes back from that horrific injury. That was the first year he played after the injury. I think he took 2019 off.

He went five and one as their starter, but he got banged up. They couldn't lean on him. I think they ultimately, they tried to play Dwayne Haskins. It didn't really work out. Kyle Allen was part of it. And obviously,

Taylor Heineke winds up starting a playoff game and scaring the bejesus out of the Tom Brady Bucks. And obviously won the Super Bowl. COVID is obviously the backdrop to all of this, just a bizarre season. I went back and I was watching highlights from that wildcard game. Empty FedEx Field, just nobody there because of all the COVID regulations. Just a weird dream of a season. And the other thing I wanted to shout out that I will remember. forever was the season finale that got Washington into the playoffs was the game where Doug

Peterson pulled Jalen Hertz and played Nate Sudfeld through the end of the game. And Philly just basically gave up on it and backed Washington into the playoffs by not trying to win the game. And Doug Peterson winds up leaving the Eagles like a week or two after that. Just a strange moment in time. I mean, that's not even the team's name anymore. They were the Washington football teams. Just a weird, a weird team and a weird time capsule that is, I just, I will fondly remember that time.

A question like this leading us to a Nate Sudfeld pull is what it's all about. That's a good one. It really is what it's all about. I do have one more team that actually is more like this helped go where the league was going. The 2014 Browns, when Kyle Shanahan was their offensive coordinator, they went seven to nine, but actually had a winning record with Brian Hoyer and his 13 star. and then they lost the other three with backups. It was like one game of Johnny Mansell and two with like Conner Shaw or something

ridiculous. Like it's somebody who was not like ever really stuck around in the league for that long. But that offense, that was obviously Shanahan had like called plays before and like been a part of bigger offenses. But I remember 2014. This was right when I kind of started doing football stuff seriously. And I was watching the 2014 rounds and I was like, holy shit, this this Kyle Shanahan guy, it feels like he's got something here.

A dumb fun thing that I love about revis. visiting old teams is like if it's a team where maybe the starter got injured or maybe you don't have a established quarterback but over the course of a year you could have as many as three or four starting quarterbacks and it's so morbidly fun to go try to piece it back together like oh yeah like why did that guy have to start three games why why did they go to mansell here just it's it's very fun reliving all of that it's like c s i all right beller what's our next one okay Viesta says my buddy and I have always talked about some backup quarterbacks in a tier where they're too good to be a backup but too bad to be a starter. The guy that got this going,

Kyle Orton. I was wondering if you all see any quarterbacks in that tier right now. Dave, what do you think on this one? I'm curious for Derek's take on this because Derek is a, I was, you could say he's meaner than me, but he's just, he's, he's, no, but like, that's not even true. He's just, he has a higher standard than I do. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, more forgiving. Derek, what do you think if I say to you, like, I think an obvious place you could go here is Mack Jones, right? But like, I think Mac Jones, I think he's, I think he deserves another shot to be a long-term starter. Like, I think when, when this contract is done in San Francisco, I would be in favor of somebody giving him a shot, not saying throw the, the brink's truck at him,

but somebody giving him a shot to be a starting quarterback. Like, I think, I'm not, not ready to close the book on Mac Jones potentially being good enough to be a full season starter. Do you agree or disagree? So I had three names and I think Mac Jones is the toughest one because he does feel like he's if this is like a range of like, you know, too good to be a backup but too bad to be a starter, he feels closer to like the high end of the range where it's like he's probably too bad to be a guy you for sure want to be starting every year. Like, you know, you want to pay him outright. but he probably is too good to stick around as a backup for as long as he's going.

Like it doesn't make sense for him to be a backup for the next three, four years. That's how I feel like Mac Jones might not ever be better than high, like low 20s as a starting quarterback. But I do think I do think he's better than too bad to be a starter or, you know, maybe maybe spending a year in the Shanahan system is just coloring my perception there. But we've seen guys benefit from getting to hang out in San Francisco for a little while before. So yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was a little harsh to say Mac Jones. So after Mac Jones, the answer for me, like if the phrasing is too good to be a backup, but too bad to be a starter, I landed on James Winston pretty easily right after Mac Jones. I think there are two guys who have kind of been this tier for a long time.

James Winston is one of them. I think for the last like three or four years, Tyrod Taylor has also been like that tier of player where like earlier in his career he actually was good enough to be a starter obviously with the bills and then he had like stretches with like the chargers and texans where he was like an okay starter but i would say the last like three or so years tarad taylor has kind of been in that tier of like at this point he's probably too old to be like considered like i would want to go start him but like i think he has been that guy for a while yeah i think i think that's fair and i think my and i know tarad taylor started four games last year but i just i think back to like

23. Terad Taylor stepped in and did some good stuff for the Giants. Like that, that Bills game, I think it was on Sunday night football where they scared the hell out of the bills. But like, that's two, three years ago at this point. So I think that's fair. I think Terad Taylor is in the same class as James Winston.

James Winston's just the most chaotic quarterback in the NFL. Like over the last two years, seven percent of his throws have been big time throws. per PFF, but also per PFF, another 7% of his plays have been turnover worthy plays. Mm-hmm. Well, that's the funny thing. You probably end up at like the same net, like net neutral spot, but you just get there in about as different ways as you possibly could.

Which, if that's the case, sign me up for James because like over his last nine games, he's averaging 290 passing yards, his last nine starts, I should say. 2090 passing yards when he gets into the game, 14 passing touchdowns, but also 14 interceptions. Like that's just the, that's the James ride. It always has been.

But if James Winston was the backup on my team, particularly if it was a pretty good team, I'd be like, okay, if shit hits the fan, James can step in and have like a 300 yard night and just wow us for two and a half hours. But that's like, A, that is the high end result. B, we can't be leaning on this for more than like one afternoon or it's going to go wonky. And so like I feel like James is a very good answer to this question.

I do have one more. And the problem is it feels weird because he actually is going to be a starting quarterback this year. Jacoby Brissette is absolutely this tier of player. It's just the Cardinals have kind of backed themselves into having no other option for this particular season. Themselves into or opted for that path. Yeah. You know, I'm trying to give them options. you know, maybe they'll get into Carson Beck by the time they get to week 10 or whatever.

I think that is, Jacoby is a really good point because we've seen him step in over several times over the years and perform really admirably. But then fairly, like fairly early in the season. Like what week? Yeah, it was early November. It was right at the midpoint of the season when the Cardinals made that switch from Kyler to Jacoby. And he looked good against the Cowboys. Most people did. and then it was just never really good again after that.

I think he went one and 11 as the starter for Arizona. Like it never materialized into the consistency that you might hope for for how much we liked our glimpses of Jacoby Berset over the years. All right, Beller, what is our next question? Dennis On has the next question, and Dennis says last week's mailbag episode had a discussion about certain positions being undervalued, and you guys mentioned how a star edge rusher gets paid nearly twice as much as a comparable quality offensive tackle.

That got me wondering, what is a non-QB position group that benefits the most from adding a star? And what's a position group that benefits the most from plugging a weakness? Perhaps the edge room benefits more from adding a $50 million star player than upgrading your third eddresser,

but for an offensive line, it's more important to not have the glaring weak link than to pay a star tackle that kind of money. Is this an appropriate way to think about positional value? What's a you, Derek? I think kind of. I actually think offensive

line is a little bit of a tricky one. I think in terms of fixing weak links, the interior is the interior offensive line is kind of how I think about that. Like paying, you know, 12 million bucks for like an okay guard who can get by. I actually do think tackle being able to add a star does have like a huge bonus effect. Because like with interior players, you can't just leave them on an island like in past protection. Like that's not really how that works just by way of where they are aligned. But a tackle, if you have a star there, if you trade for a, let's just say, a Laramie Tunsell, you can just leave him alone because he's the top five pass protecting offensive lineman and you can just kind of let him be. And I do think that that has like a huge cascade effect for the other players

around them. Edge is obviously another one we're adding a star just by virtue of like guys who can affect a quarterback like that. I think that goes a long way. Wide receiver and running back, I think when you get guys who are like true game changers, because of how often they touch the ball, I think being able to add at those positions does a lot. And then the positions where I felt more like fixing a weak link made more sense interior offensive on like I said safety. Like I think it's cool to have some of the safeties who can just do a million things like you know, a Kyle Hamilton and all that stuff.

But that is, I mean, it's in the name safety. The job is to like you are the last line of defense. Please don't F this up when the other guys, you know, kind of let things happen. So I think fixing weak links there is always good. And then tight end to me is like a glue position. And so being able to have stars there again is really cool. but that to me is more like a, hey, if that guy is not a huge problem for our offense, that allows us to, like, do some of the other stuff that we want to do.

Not surprisingly, I would throw in corner as one of those positions that can elevate everything where, I mean, if you, I'm thinking about Denver off the top of my head where if Pat Ser Tan's just a guy that you never, ever have to worry about and you can just pick up the slack in a variety of different ways across the rest of the secondary. I mean, we joke about it all the time. Is Riley Moss a bad player? Or does Riley Moss just get targeted all the freaking time? Because nobody's messing with Pat Sartan.

But he has an exposure problem. But like for how often he has to deal with that, I would argue he's a pretty good player. Like, I mean, if you got a few DPIs on your record because that's the only part of the, the only time the opponent's willing to try the field deep, like I think that makes perfect sense. But yeah, I think when I was thinking about,

this you know I'm trying to be as smart and introspective as possible but I'm like yeah I think the positions that you would highlight as the premium game tilting positions where the guys make the highest salary I think those are the ones that have the greatest impact and and that's why and the the filling a weakness is is very similar where yeah like guard interior offensive line safety. These are spots where you're trying to protect yourself from just being a glaring weakness and just like an unplayable level of football. The one thing that I think makes that interesting and it can be so hard to find is, for instance, like linebacker where a Fred Warner is absolutely worth the money that he makes. But finding Fred Warner is one of the most difficult things to do in football. So, determining who's worth paying and and whether they play up to that contract. It's fascinating to me because if you find that guy, a linebacker of that caliber can be a difference maker like that,

even if we don't talk about linebacker the same way we talk about edge or corner or receiver. But help me find that guy. Please, I'm begging you because it's very hard to do. Because that, that I think too is like, that's 100% it. Like I think having, adding a star at linebacker does go such a long way for you like a Fred Warner or just like guys who they just allow you to play with different box counts or you can do different stuff in coverage because they can do all this stuff. And that because they're in the literal middle of the defense allows you to have this huge cascade effect. The problem is like you said, there are only like three guys at a time who are like truly that kind of a force. Whereas like there are seven, eight corners right now in the league.

that I would say, like, you can just leave them on an island and they're fine. They're not all as good at it as Pat Sertan, but there are seven or eight of those guys, where I'm like, if we need to do that for a game, we are so good. Well, and that goes back to when we did our under 25 and under draft, it's not to shit on Puka Nakua or Jackson Smith and Jigba at all. And receiver is so incredibly important, but there's a shitload of those guys, dude. There are so many receivers that you would say you feel that way. about like I feel so confident about being able to find a math changing receiver even if they still

are in the grand scheme of the NFL rare but you can get up toward like 20 guys in my opinion who could be that guy for you linebacker completely different conversation if you could guarantee me their production like you come to me ahead of time and say this is fred warner linebacker would be so so high on who I would prioritize paying but because we don't know, it makes me really nervous and that's what makes you reluctant to do it. It's fascinating. That's the other thing too, because even for like the great coverage linebackers, right, like you could be the best coverage linebacker in the league and you get one interception a year maybe. Whereas like if you are the best receiver in a league, you're like up for triple

crowns every other year just based on like how good the quarterback is playing. Like the production, like you said, is a guarantee. Whereas like at linebacker, you can obviously feel their effect when you watch how the defense plays, but it's not necessarily a guarantee that they're like getting hands on the ball. Don't you worry. This is not the last time we will be talking about the linebacker position on this mailbag. That's what they call a tease, though. We'll get to that and more questions right after our first break.

All right, Beller, what's our next one? All right, Kevin Levine wants to put you guys in Roger Goodell's job. He says, for one day, you have all the powers of the commissioner of the NFL. Nobody knows this. So anything you do is completely anonymous and you don't have to answer any questions about it. In a weird quirk, you are also allowed to make one change to the way the NFL works. that doesn't need approval of league owners. Everything's in play.

You can reimagine the salary cap or abolish it entirely. rework the draft to try to fix teams tanking, redefine what it catches, redesign the playoffs, the schedule, how many points a touchdown is worth? How long or wide the field is the entire league rulebook is your oyster? What one change would you make to make the league better? And what change would you make just for your own personal enjoyment? Dave, why don't you take this one first?

All right, I'm going to take the exact wording of the question and run with it. because Kevin very clearly said, I can do this without the approval of NFL ownership. And that is crucial to what I'm about to say, because never in a million years would they sign off on this. But the number one thing I would do, and I've got another one that's more about the play on the field and like actual football.

But the number one thing I would do is invent some checks and balances for NFL ownership. I would invent some way to keep NFL fanbases from being held completely at the whim of these 30-some-odd business men and women who may or may not be good at their jobs or may or may not care about running a good football team. Whether that's, I mean, one easy way to do it, I would force NFL teams to disclose earnings and expenditures, coaches, salaries, how much they're spending on facilities. stadium, how much they're paying and rent, how much profit they're making, all that good shit. I would force them to disclose it the same way the Green Bay Packers have to do because they are a publicly owned company.

And then I would have to really sit down and like get into the nitty gritty of this, but I would set some sort of way to have oversight on NFL decision making, whether that's like a board of trustees, you know, like a, a, a panel of people that can sit and weigh like, how are we running this? How are we spending the money? Are we making a good faith effort to be competitive? Because I think these franchises are far too valuable

and far too important to the communities that they represent to just congratulations. You own an NFL team for one reason or another. And that's all there is to it. I think like the NFL has gotten so big, so profitable and so, so important that I just, I don't think that's fair. And I think like one of the greatest imbalances in this whole thing is that fans just have

to hope that the person that owns their team gives a shit. So I would, thanks to not having to get the owner's consent, I would put checks and balances on the owners in place first, first hour of my first day. I love that you went like as big picture as possible because mine are so specific and like that mine are like so like down to the. We'll cover the gamut. We'll cover the gamut, baby. It's okay.

Yeah. So mine, in terms of like what would I change that I actually feel like would make the game better, revert how defensive pass interference is called. Like I let DBs play. Like I've been saying this for basically the entire time that I've been doing this job. I think obviously it's like, yeah, you're going to have some moments where the DB is completely mugging the receiver and it looks bad. But like offense should be hard.

Throwing the ball should be hard. It's a really hard thing to do it. So that's kind of my guiding light there. I also just think it like, when you live in that world, it makes the quarterbacks who are really good stand out even more. Because it's like, wow, this is as hard as it could possibly be and this guy's electric. And so that's kind of where I would go with that. My other small one that is like a personal change, all passes behind the line of scrimmage. Two players in motion should count as runs.

We should stop counting those as passes. Like the little jet touch passes, those count as runs on the score sheet. Man, that makes it so much harder to stat pad on video games, though. Good. Are you kidding? I'm trying, yeah, like, I didn't think about actual rules and regulations. I'm trying to think of, like, the things that piss me off the most. Like, okay, DPI is fine, but, like, defensive holding should not be an automatic first down.

especially if it's like a long down like if it's a long distance like if it's third and 12 and you get a defensive holding like whatever third and eight and try again you know like I it's too many automatic first downs when this stuff is already skewed toward the the offense in the first place that's a that's a good one because again if the if like the starting field position is going to change and then on your first third and 11 you just get this automatic first down because of a holding call that happened like six yards down the field it's like man what do we do you're already in field goal range, basically. Like, what do we do it? The other one that I wanted to shout out, which it's something Derek, you and I complain about all the time. But so I thought about I'll be, I will be transparent. I thought about just axing the 17th game and going back down to 16, which I would be fine with,

but the games make money and the games are a big part of the reason why the salary cap continues to jump and I think that's more fun and more fair for everybody. So I don't know if it's a good idea to axe the 17th game. I think what I would do, I would add an 18th game. I would get rid of the third preseason game. So two preseason, 18 regular season. We would add a second by week. And most importantly for our purposes, we would cap the schedule at Sundays, Mondays, and Thursdays.

Amen. Absolutely. No more of these other games. And and we would impose a no more than one Thursday night game a year rule. Like we don't need to be doing the double Thursday bullshit. We don't need to be having teams play on Thursday four times because they're popular. You get one Thursday game. We play on Sunday and there's one Monday night game the way the good Lord intended.

This is actually the best change. You're the commissioner now. Like we need to go back to where the football schedule is a ritual. Sunday, Monday, Thursday, don't change shit. I'll just do all the 30,000 foot stuff and you fix the actual dynamics of what's happening on the field. I think this is a good strategy. Guys, I want to get on in this too, especially since you brought out the 18th game here, Dave. I'm going to get in.

I'm going to use this to future proof something. We're going to 18 games. I think we all kind of assume that's going to happen eventually. If and when that happens, I say get rid of NFC, AFC regular season games. You play your teams in your division twice. that is six games. You play every other team in your conference once. That is 12 more games for 18 games.

And we can have these fun. What if, like for their entire careers, or at least their entire rookie contracts, and we'll see what happens after that. We knew that Jaden Daniels and Caleb Williams were playing each other. You get these fun little mini-era-based rivalries that would happen. I would love to see that. And I love the symmetry of it too.

And like, I don't want to hear anything about like, oh, but then this fan base would never get to see NFC teams will never get to see Lamar Jackson, NFC teams will never get to see Josh Allen, AFC teams will never get to see Bejan Robinson. They see them once every eight years as it stands right now. So like that doesn't happen anyway. That is not an actual argument.

A, I disagree, Beller, because now that we've added, I mean, it's kind of stupid, but now, like, now that the 17th game is cross-conference, that's one more opportunity to see that player. So you have a statistically better shot. And I don't know. Something doesn't sit right with me about the idea that like if you're, if you love the Ravens and you live in Phoenix,

Lamar Jackson's just never coming to town. You just write that off. It's coming once every eight years as it is. It's better than knowing from the jump that it's never going to happen ever. And you have to like travel to see Lamar Jackson play. I don't know. I don't like that. Something about that doesn't sit right with me.

I don't know if I do or don't like it, but I do think it would make, because I feel like AFC versus NFC in terms of like how a lot of the teams are organized and like where the power structures. Obviously, AFC for a long time has been like quarterback dominant. NFC has always felt like it's a little bit more team oriented, like just like overall team quality. I wonder if that would feel more different. Like would that even get more disparate if that's how this was going. Like I don't know. I do think that the clash by the time we get to like the Super Bowl would kind to make for even more interesting matchups. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I think that's where my head's at. For the purposes of building a playoff field, it is as balanced a schedule as you can

have also where you're playing. Everyone who you are actually directly competing for playoff spots with, you get to play them and you all play the same schedules, save for your division matchups. Can you even imagine the effect that it would have? Because think about the way the current schedule formatting works so drastically influences the playoffs, because somebody in the NFC has to play the AFC West and somebody else in the NFC gets to play a weaker division. I don't want to say which you want to piss somebody off.

Someone in the AFC is playing the AFC East. Some of the AFC is playing the NFC north this year and someone's playing the NFC South. Yeah. Which four of those can you rather play? And we're going to look up in October and be like, holy shit, all these teams are above 500 in November. And it's like, well, they all got to play the NFC South. So I think you're right.

It would be more balanced. but I don't know. I can't get all the way there. It bothers me to think that you would just never play a team from across the conference unless you made the Super Bowl. Unfortunately, for all of us, we're not going to see any of our sweet changes implemented

because that's not how this works. But how this show works is that we move on to another question from Helena Fothergill. Helena says, would you rather have an offense with a top four quarterback and the 10 other starters net out to league average or a bottom four quarterback, but anyone you want at the other 10 spots? So like Josh Allen and average dudes around him or, I don't know, Shadur Sanders and the first team all pros around him.

What do you got here, Derek? I think putting Shadur Sanders on it specifically, it feels like it's going to taint my answer. I'm just trying to illustrate. It's bottom four. I think the answer is clearly bottom four quarterback with the other 10 guys. If you're telling me the rest of my roster, if you're telling me the rest of my roster is Jemar Chase, Puka, Nakuwa, like Pena Sule, Tristan Wurst, Creed Humphreys, Bejohn Robinson, Brock Bowers, like, yes, we're going to crush everybody.

Like, what are we talking about? You know who finished bottom four in like EPA per dropback this past season, right? Give me last year's like Gino Smith or give me Jacoby Brissette. Like, I don't care. Like we would win. Who are the bottom four, Dave? J.J. McCarthy, Shadur, Sanders, Cam Ward, and Gino Smith, I believe. Cam Ward wins the Super Bowl with that team.

No question. I don't, I don't think I agree with this. I think Davis Mills wins the Super Bowl with that team. My answer specifically was the phrase bottom four is what scares me off. Because like if you even bumped it up to like 15th or 18th best quarterback, a middle of the pack quarterback would probably be too easy because like Trevor Lawrence was 16th in EPA per play last year. So give me Trevor Lawrence with the Super Team. and I'm taking that all day.

But like, yeah, Cam Ward, Gino Smith. Oh, I forgot to mention Joe Flacco as well. Like, I don't, I don't know, man. Joe Flacco wins the Super Bowl with that team. This, Joe Flacco? Having, if I have the best player at every other position, I think we're underrating how powerful that is.

I'm just terrified of it being like the third quarter of a game. and Jemar Chase is just throwing up his hands in frustration because he's open all the time and the ball's not getting to him. I don't know. I like I've seen some bad, bad quarterback play and it is a good point. I don't know how much I've ever watched a terrible quarterback on the best team ever assembled, but the guys got to see it and got to have the confidence to rip it and be going in the right direction on a consistent basis. I don't know. It just scares me, man. I think doing it with like the young quarterbacks who are that bad does make it a little bit trickier.

But again, I think if you give me one of these bottom four vets, like, again, like if you give me like Davis Mills with 10 all pros around him, I think you win the Super Bowl. Like I would think that's too much talent around him. It would be pretty fun to see Joe Flacco on a team like that where he's seen just an ungodly amount of football. Like you can't really throw anything new at a guy like that. and he's just got an amazing offensive line. Yeah, okay. I could talk myself into Joe Flacco doing this. Hey, just for the record, Davis Mills led one of the craziest comebacks last year

that effectively won the Texans of the division against the Jaguar. The Jaguar. Yes. Yeah. What a stupid game, by the way. I can't believe the Jaguars lost that game. Davis Mills has two Russian touchdowns in that game. We're talking about like one game sample sizes, by the way.

You got to win. you got to win like 18 or 19 games to win the Super Bowl maybe 20 he did that with the 30th best offensive line as opposed to like what would literally be the best offensive line of all time I'm just I don't know I think it would be easier than we're a magic it's like obviously quarterback is the most important position but it's the most important position in part because you can never assemble 10 all pros around them I'm really surprised I would have bet my life that Derek would be like, don't make me watch the bad quarterback. I'll take the good one no matter who he's playing with.

But I see your logic. I don't know. It just it scares me to think about wasting all that talent if the quarterback's not good enough. Whereas, and by the way, I mean, we've seen Patrick Mahomes drag two really forgettable offenses to Super Bowls in recent memory. So I know that that is a thing you can do if you have that guy at QB. so I don't know I think that's what makes it tricky because like this that part of the hypothetical like is real and we've seen that right like Josh Allen being as good as he has been for a long time like I know their offensive line is good but like given the past catchers that probably amounts closer to like average obviously what the chiefs have done in that time straight Brady had some teams obviously where they were probably pretty average around him and he elevated them to being what they were and so we've seen that whereas like the other side of the hypothetical we'll never see. Like we're never going to see a team where it's 10 all pros around a bad quarterback. Maybe that's maybe I just want to be safe with what I've seen before.

Like I said, the thought of wasting all of that potential scares the shit out of me. But I, it is a good point that like you can't underestimate how much talent that is. But I still think I lean on the good quarterback. All right, Bellar, what's up next? Esquire Rhapsody writes in. There's a lot of context of this, but I'm just going to boil it down straight to the question. Save us, I don't know, 15 seconds of runtime.

You're welcome, Katie. What makes a great special teams coordinator? Dave, you got to take this one first. Obviously, I love this question. And my answer is enthusiasm, people skills, and just a ridiculous attention to D.C. detail. And so to add some context to the question, you know, the, the Squire Rhapsody

asked, you know, that there's only so many ways to punt or defend a kickoff. You're working with back of the roster players. It's not like you can foster competition at kicker and on and on and on. I think that's fair, but that is why every special teams coordinator I have ever spent time around is a maniacal madman. And that comes. across as either like, you know, we talk about offensive coordinators as guys that sit in dark rooms and scheme up ways to draw a place. Special team coordinators do that as well. Like when you're working in the, with the margins and special teams, you're talking about the difference between, oh, well, you know, we've noticed that this guy, you know, he lines up one foot wide of the hash. And when

he does that, he gives up some leverage on his inside shoulder. And we think that can give us a shot at a punt block when they're in the right look or, you know, this guy overruns his target on kick or turn. And we think like if we create a block here, it can open a seam for us. They are doing that shit to an insane degree. And then on top of that, like I said, enthusiasm and people skills, because I do think it is a good point. You are working with a lot of back of roster players. I think it is an underrated skill to get 20 plus guys who are used to be a. the best guy on their football team to buy in and want to work their ass off at special teams to

say, hey, you were the best corner on your team. But right now, you're fourth on the depth chart and you've got to play like a demon 15 snaps a game and hope that it leads somewhere better. I think the very best special teams coordinators are really good at fostering that sense of ownership and enthusiasm to go do shit that you would rather not be doing. And so, So I have more to say, but I want to hear what Derek says. But yeah, like that's where it starts for me. I mean, I don't have as much to say to me. It is a lot of the people skills for a lot of the reasons you're saying.

Because like nobody necessarily wants to do special teams. You play football to go catch passes to rush after the passer, like whatever it's going to be. And so being forced to do this stuff, I do think is something that not everybody necessarily wants to do. So like being able to foster that give a shit factor is huge. And then like further to that point for guys on. the offense, you know, year over year, you might have eight of the 11 same starters, like year over year, eight or nine. And so there's a lot of like consistency in terms of like who you're coaching if you're the offensive or defensive coordinator or whatever. The turnover

on special teams is massive year to year because it's all back of the roster guys. It's like, you know, you might have had a fifth round pick and you cut him after a year and now you've got two different day three. Like it's always you're shuffling in guys in and out of the roster constantly. And so I do think it's always having to be flexible. with like what body types you're using, how you're using them, and just like how your team actually looks in terms of the construction. Because again, I think those guys filter in and out at such a high rate. It's true. I will say this though. I think it's misleading to say that special teams is purely back of the roster guys because the average NFL team has at least one,

if not as many as three or four, like a special teamers that carry over from year to year. like Matthew Slater's the most famous one, but every single team in the league has a guy like this who keeps making the team because he can play four special teams. He's a, he's a demon on kick return. He'll get in there on field goal block. And covering a team for as long as I did,

it was always funny to see the influence the special teams coordinator had because every year these veterans who had proven that they weren't really up to snuff on, offense or defense kept making the team. And you're like, holy shit, can we get some new blood in here? Like, can we, like, can we keep the young draft pick instead of the year five guy who's going to ace special teams? But that is the priority that NFL teams put on this stuff.

Like, they view it as very important. And in a lot of cases, they will give leeway to the special teams coordinator to keep the guys that he trusts. That also is a good point, though, about not, it not always being back to the roster guys like, especially on like kick block team. Like that is actually a lot of your started, especially like along the D line. Like Jordan Davis blocked a number of kicks last year. And he is obviously like a key starter for the Eagles defense.

Quick story that I want to tell, which illustrates my point a little bit. It clearly stuck with me. We all remember Joe Judge. His career as Giants head coach didn't go that well. Didn't go well at all. Who am I kidding? But he was a lot, special teams coordinator, a long time. special teams guy. I remember after a Cowboys Giants game, you know, the head coaches typically do some

sort of show where they answer questions about how the game went. And Joe Judge gave this awesome lesson on like Giants media where the game was played in Dallas, you know, the Cowboys have these, the big windows and like all the time the sun sets and it's this big fiasco where the sun is in everybody's eyes. It happens like six times a year. Joe Judge like gave this lesson after the fact where he was like, yeah, well, we knew it was the 3.30 game. We knew the sun was going to be coming through the windows. There are sunspots here in this part of the end zone, this part of the end zone, and this part of the end zone. And we asked our guy, I think it was Graham Ganoe, to angle his kicks for the sun spots so that Tony Pollard would be standing and looking into the sun. every single time. And like best case scenario, he's going to drop one. But even if he doesn't, you have to pause and hold up and fight the sun to catch a ball that is coming through the sunlight, as opposed to if you've got a clear beat on it and you're just running up on it and nothing's impeding you, you can get a running start. You can get that much better of a kick return. Whereas if

if you've got to fight the sun, stand still, and then go, you're going to be slower. You're going to be less decisive. And it won't be as good. And lo and behold, the Giants lost that game, but they were animals on kick return. And I watched that video and I was like, holy shit, these guys are thinking of stuff that would have never even occurred to me. And that's just like, that's just the beginning. That is insane to me. That makes, especially for that stadium, that makes a lot of sense, but that is completely

insane. I would say that is a really obvious one by special teams coordinators standards. But, I mean, they are thinking of the wildest shit. All right. I'm almost done, but whatever. Robert's not here to rain me in. The question did ask, like, who are the better or the best special teams coordinators in the NFL right now? I would absolutely shout out Jay Harbaugh after what he did for the Seahawks last year.

Their special teams were fantastic on the way to the Super Bowl. Chris Banjo for the Jets, who was a longtime special teamer in his own right, the Jets had a phenomenal first year under him where I think they led, yeah, they led the league in special teams DVOA. they were right behind Seattle in special teams points scored. Hey, you got to be happy about something, right? John Fossil is with the Titans guy. He was, he's a guy that I covered for a long time in Dallas.

And when I talk about like a maniacal enthusiasm for this shit, John Fossel is like the dictionary definition of that. And then Frank Ross in Houston and Darren Rizzi has been Sean Pais. and special teams coordinator forever. Those are, there are plenty of other ones, but that's like the short list of guys I would shout out if you want to know about some special teams coordinators. Okay, Beller, I'm done.

I think I went more than long enough on special teams. All right. Let's take our last break, and then we'll come back and answer a few more questions. Okay, Ramsey Abdul Rahim has our next question. Ramsey says, in a recent mailbag, Robert and Derek, discussed the optimal ages for each position and agreed that the younger, the running back, the better.

How much of this consensus is based on calendar age versus accumulated wear and tear? A few running backs of yesteryear had career peaks after their age 27 seasons. Tiki Barber averaged 2,000 yards from scrimmage after age 27. Thomas Jones averaged 1,200 yards rushing between ages 27 and 31, bear down, and Warwick Dunn had his best season at age 30. Each of these players spent the first half of their careers as a backup or complementary piece and were, quote, fresher than their age might have indicated. Has the nature of the position changed, or should teams seek out low-cost,

second contract guys in committee situations to be bigger parts of their offense despite their age, thinking along the lines of Jalen Warren, Kenneth Gainwell, Tyler Algier, etc. Derek, why don't you take this one first? So I think it feels like what we're trying to pick at here with the guys who are maybe potentially committee players and then signing them to second year contracts or second contracts and then giving them the job. The problem is that a lot of the guys who like are committee players now are not big

enough to be like full-time work courses in the way that like we see the other guys in the league. So like last year, for example, 10 running backs took at least 250 carries. Nine of them were drafted in the first two rounds, the exception is Karen Williams. Nine of them are 205 pounds or heavier. The exception is James Cook. Um, 20204 was a little bit different in terms of where they were drafted because you had Chuba Hubbard came out of nowhere. Aaron Jones was on a second contract for Minnesota. And so every now and then you get some of these. guys but the guys who are good committee players and then go on to be decent leadbacks for their team are the guys who have the size so in this example like jalen warren's a weird one because

he's heavy but he's five eight so he's kind of he's kind of a tricky one to get a handle on but like kenni gainwell for example he is generously 200 pounds he's always been a role player like he's always been a guy who like is good as a committee player probably not someone who is built to be like a full-time player. I think if you're trying to look around the league now and find the guys who are committee guys for one reason or another and could have good second contracts, Tyler, I was here I did think was that guy until obviously, you know, his same team drafted Jeremiah Love, who obviously that's going to be a committee now. Braylin Allen for the Jets like in a couple of years, I think is a guy who could be that because he's a little bit bigger,

has that like Belkow size. And then you've seen a couple of other examples before of guys who were kind of saved on committees and that had good second contracts. Aaron Jones, who I mentioned earlier, like the Packers kind of split a lot of time with him and Jamal Williams early on. And so he was able to sustain into a second contract for the Packers and be good. Tony Pollard was this, like obviously him and Zeke split time. And so, but even again, Aaron Jones and Tony Pollard, they were like 205 plus and they were built like full-time backs.

They just weren't getting that opportunity. And so I think that to me is where a lot of it comes down to. It's the size. the other thing I would bring up is the league the business of the league has just changed a little bit in the time since the running backs mentioned in the questions tiki barber was pick 36 in his respective draft thomas jones was pick seven and warwick done was pick 12 and some of it was injury related but like these guys weren't bell cow do everything backs right off the jump in their careers. And I just don't think that's how the NFL works anymore. Like if you, I mean, certainly, if you draft a player top 12, you're drafting him to be the guy and carry a lot of the load for your offense right away. And even up to like pick 36, pick 50, I mean, Kenneth Walker was pick 41 in the 2022 draft. And if you compare his stats to Tiki Barber,

at this point in their respective careers, like when Tiki Barber was done with his fourth season, he had half as many rushing attempts as Kenneth Walker. Like, I think if you're drafting a running back highly, it is to maximize that rookie contract, get as much as you can out of him. And if he's good enough and durable enough that you want to pay him, by all means do it. But NFL teams, the goal, it sounds callous, but the goal is to get as much as you can out of them while they're still fresh and worry about that later.

Whereas I don't think NFL teams, whether it's a trust factor, whether it's because the contract situations are different, but NFL teams just weren't as, I don't know if it's willing, but they just weren't as focused on getting that much out of running backs that quickly. And I mean, you look across the spectrum, Bijan Robinson's the same way where his usage compared to guys drafted, you know, like Thomas Jones,

it's just not even close. And so I think to Derek's point, if you're going to get to your second contract, and still be really fresh, you're probably a day three guy. And if you're a day three guy, why is that? Is it because you're a little bit undersized? Is it because teams don't really want you running between the tackles and you kind have to prove that you can do that?

Is it because you're more of a receiving back or whatever? I think guys that are going to get to a second contract with a relatively low amount of mileage on their legs are going to be guys that have to prove themselves as day three picks. That's not a blanket statement, but in general, I think that's probably true. A hundred percent agree. And I think the other thing here that like is especially true now in the in the world that we live in with the way that defenses are operating, so much of being a good running back right now, I think is being able to generate explosives. That's harder to do when you're a little bit older. Like last year, uh, the only runners who had at least one explosive run a game,

uh, which I was using a 12 yards in a game. So at least one 12 yard case. So at least one 12 yard carry per game. The only guys who were 28 and older to do that last year were Derek Henry, who was like a timeless wonder and a top 40 pick, Sequin Barclay, who was the second overall pick in his draft, and Christian McCaffrey, who was also a first-round pick in his draft. And all these guys are like pretty big. And so I think, again, it does come down to like, there is a pretty clear profile for what is a lead back in the NFL and which guys can sustain. And to me, I think it is the guys who are big enough and like clearly special athletes. And I just don't think a lot of those guys hang around as committee players for very long in this current NFL.

Having said that, I mean, we say it all the time. I would have liked to see Tyler Algier in a more advantageous situation. And I am really excited about what could be in front of Kenny Gainwell for the record. Like I think those are great examples, but I think it's those those situations. Situations are few and far between at this point when you're talking about big time running backs that have a chance to be successful into their late 20s and early 30s. All right, guys, here we go. Last question of the episode. This one comes to us from Jason.

Jason asks, what do you think drives teams not to look at retread defensive coordinators, Jim Schwartz, Steve Spagnolo, Vic Fangio, as head coaches. Even in a weak coaching class, this class of coaches, this group of the DCs, didn't even receive a look. clearly still having their fastball. Is it just the offensive first nature of the league or something specific to the individuals involved? Dave, get us started on this last question. I have one slight pushback to the question, which is just that even with all the factors working against defensive coaches and retread defensive coaches, Dan Quinn got a shot very recently and Robert Sala got a second shot in this hiring cycle. So I would argue teams are still willing to do it, probably less willing to do it. And I think I think Jason hit on a couple of the reasons.

I mean, I think all things being equal, I think NFL teams would rather hire an offensive coach, A, because the way the rules are skewed, because of the continuity that you get. If you hit on an offensive coach, all the stuff that we talk about week after week. I think that's all true for the most part. And I think we talked about it in the lead up to the Super Bowl because we, you know, we looked at the splits of the Super Bowl 10 years ago versus this year. And NFL coach, head coaching ages are just trending downwards. Teams are looking for the younger hot shot commodity. I mean, everybody is obviously everybody's looking for McVeigh,

but even on the defensive side of the ball, teams are now looking for Mike McDonald or you know like you're hoping Jesse Mentor can be the Mike McDonald archetype in Baltimore and so I think the longer you've been around the league the more you've had an opportunity to put bad tape out there or prove that

maybe you're not the personality for the amount of forward facing stuff that a head coach has to do I think teams are looking for reasons to not do that but like I said I think at the end of the day I still think there's a willingness to do it because we've had two defensive retread hires in the last couple years alone. Right. And I think a lot of the defensive coordinators that do get like retread hired jobs like a Robert Sala, they're just a little bit younger. Like Vic Fangio is 67 years old.

Steve Spagnolo is 66 years old. Even Jim Schwartz is 60, which I don't think like that is probably right around the line of like what is too old to like really be hired in this in this category. And I know there were some other older coaches hired in this cycle. but those three defensive coordinators, those three defensive minds, you would want them on your staff because they could call plays for you. Whereas the other older guys in the cycle, John Harbour obviously being hired by the Giants, he's not like a play caller.

That is a CEO, like look over the entire building thing. Mike McCarthy is a little bit of a tricky one. Like, you know, you're kind of hiring him to be the offensive mind, but I think you're also hiring him to like to just be a steadying hand, which I don't think is the reason that you would hire a Vic Fangio or a Jim Schwartz, you would hire them because they kick ass calling defenses. And then the other one that I think you could maybe make the argument for is Todd Monkin. You know, obviously being the offensive coordinator for the Ravens for a long time,

he's he's going to have a big part in the Brown's offense. But the Brown's office was not, like the Brown's team was not a necessarily desirable job. So I don't, that to me is not even one that I'm like really necessarily picking on them for not having gone a defensive one. Like I think that was kind of just like a, this was probably Monkin's last shot to get a head coaching job. and he took what he could get. And so that's kind of where I landed with that. So I still think that retread defensive coordinator hires can't happen.

Like Rahim Morris happened not that long ago. Obviously, that didn't turn out well. But you mentioned Dan Quinn. That was another one that had happened not that long ago. And so I think they do happen. If there's any in this cycle that you have some questions about, it's kind of like, you know, Vance Joseph and the Denver Broncos defense was really good.

Maybe why didn't he get more looks? I think that's potentially one. I think Brian Flores, given the legal, disputes with the league. I think we know why that one hasn't happened, but like, that's another guy that you could maybe pin. So there are some guys, but like, for the most part, these are pretty explainable, I think. Vance Joseph is a, is a good one to note. He's only 53 years old, and I'd be surprised, like the Broncos defense is going to be great or at least solid for the foreseeable future. And so I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't eventually get a look, because, like, he's, he's more than young enough,

and he's going to keep coaching a fantastic unit. Like it would surprise me if he doesn't get a shot. But, yeah, Fangio 67, he's also, he's from Philly. Like everything about Fangio's situation to me kind of suggests that he's okay, just calling a really talented defense until he's ready to retire. Spagnolo's definitely weird to me because, I mean, it would be easy to say, oh, he's happy coaching defense for a dynasty. And I'm sure he is, but Steve Spagnolo has made it pretty clear.

through various channels over the last three or four years that he would love another shot. And he didn't, he did, it never materialized. And maybe he still could or maybe it's too late. But that is one where I'm like, it's a little strange that you were the, the architect of a defense that had a lot to do with all of those Super Bowls. And it never really materialized for you. So that is, that is always one that I've thought was really curious. But for the most part, I agree with you. a lot of these are pretty explainable.

And I actually do have one more to keep an eye on as far as like Retred, defensive coordinator hires that will probably happen. If the Saints defense is good again, Brandon's day will get some looks again. Like obviously the Chargers stint did not go very well for him, but I think that he would probably get another look if things go well. That's an interesting one because he was such a flashpoint. And like not necessarily fair, but he was billed as,

I mean, he was, people thought he was Mike McDonald. Like what Mike McDonald has done in Seattle, everybody thought that was Brandon Staley. And it obviously did not work out remotely that well. And so I don't know. I feel like there's and this is this is just like I'm not talking about anybody that makes decisions in the NFL. But like the just the opinion of him from the public at large is it's almost like a pariah. Like oh, Brandon Staley. And so like I think I think you're right.

but I feel like the fan base that ultimately hires Brandon Staley for a second shot, whether it's fair or not, is going to have a lot to say about it. It might take a few more years because of what you're saying. Like, we might need to be a little bit more removed from how the Chargers' run defense looked for a Brandon Staley hire to feel good for whoever it's going to be. I will say, though, like, I think part of even the concern going into the Brandon Staley hire with the Chargers was like, man, this is a really young coach, even as far not just like actual age, but like NFL years.

he had not been in around the NFL for very long. Now we're like so much further into his like being in NFL buildings, you know, knowing how to manage that sort of thing part of his career that I am at least interested for him to get another shot within the next handful of years. It reminds me of Parks and Rec where Adam Scott's character, Ben Wyatt, was like a teen mayor and it went like terribly. Yeah. And 15 years later, he's like a normal adult.

who's good at his job, but all anybody wants to talk about is when he was a teen mayor. So hopefully Brandon Staley gets a chance to correct, correct that course of events. But yeah, I mean, he's 43 years old. I would imagine if he keeps doing what he's doing, he'll have his opportunities. If there's one thing you can count on this show for other than just the nerdiest level of football discourse, we're going to get like a mid-2000s to early 20-teens sitcom reference off. That's what we're going to do here. But for now, that is all we got.

Thank you all so much for listening. I'll echo what Mays always says. I love doing these shows. The questions are incredible. They, like, it's, I look forward to having my brain challenged by these questions every week. So we love doing them. Please keep sending them in. And we will be back with plenty more.

We'll talk to you all next time. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.