The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - What makes a great NFL running game? Plus, more pressing early season questions with Mitchell Schwartz

Episode Date: September 28, 2022

Michell Schwartz joins Robert Mays on this episode to talk about something right in his wheelhouse...offensive lines! Specifically, the guys discuss some of the massing left tackle injuries, including those to Rashawn Slater and Trent Williams. Then, the guys discuss the nuts and bolts of what makes a successful run game, with a special spotlight on the Lions and Browns.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mitch on Twitter: @MitchSchwartz71Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show. Today's Wednesday, September 28th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, it's our good friend Mitchell Schwartz. Mitch, how are you doing, buddy? I'm doing pretty good.

How are you doing? I'm doing all right. You know, week three in the books had a pretty brutal Monday night game from last night that I did not watch. So I'm going to have to dig into that a little bit later. Listen, we're going to talk about that game tomorrow with Mike Jones a little bit on our Thursday show, teasing that out of it. a bit. One of our new athletic writers, Mike Jones is going to join us tomorrow. We have a lot of NFC East Shatter. So I will have to watch that game, but I have not watched it yet. Did you watch it?

So I did watch it, and I will say it was weirdly watchable bad football. So like it wasn't as atrocious as you would expect. And it was like way better than the Sunday night game, the 49ers Broncos game. It was like weirdly watchable because even when they weren't scoring, it was like, oh, Dallas's D is doing awesome things. and the offense moved the ball pretty well. And it just wasn't like bad football. It just wasn't pop-end football, but it wasn't bad football. We're going to dig into some of the struggles that passing offenses have had over the early part of this season as a way to talk about the importance of the running game.

I want to talk about why some teams are good at running the ball and why some teams are. That's difficult for fans and even somebody like me who watches this stuff all the time to pick up on at first glance. Obviously, that's something you've had to think about, look at all of the time. Before we dig into that conversation, though, I wanted to start with a little bit of news that I think could take us to an examination of what a lot of teams in the NFL, a lot of prominent teams in the NFL are dealing with right now. We did not talk about the Rayshan Slater injury at all on the Monday hangover with Deontay. That's on me. But it's a pretty huge injury and pretty huge news for the Chargers.

Rayshon Slater tore a biceps tendon. He is going to be out for the entire season. He was a borderline all pro last year. Trent Williams also hurt. and expect it to miss extended time right now. David Bakhtiari was hurt for a good chunk of time at the beginning of this season and all of last season. Taylor Luan is out for the year in Tennessee.

Ronnie Stanley has not played for the Ravens yet. A ton of elite left tackles are hurt or have been hurt for the last few weeks in the early part of this year. I want to talk about how life changes for a team when you sustain an injury like that. Oh, I forgot Tyrone Smith. Tyrone Smith also hurt for a good year. majority of the season. And Donovan Smith, so many different guys.

So I want to view this through a Chargers lens where he was so excellent in past protection last year and he was such a huge part of the building blocks of that offense and why we're excited about that offense. When you lose a guy like that, that you can put on an island all of the time in past protection, how does your offense have to fundamentally change? This is where it gets really frustrating for everyone that's in love with the Herbert potential and the Chargers offense. potential because the biggest thing we talked about all last year and in the offseason,

and even in the first couple weeks this year, is this offense just doesn't push the ball down the field enough. It's too conservative. Maybe you could say the receivers aren't fast enough or they don't have the speed to really do that. But going into this year, they made it a priority to upgrade the offensive line. We all kind of knew that the O line was holding them back a little bit last year, the right side in particular. They dropped us later. In the first round, like you said, basically played an all-pro level right out the gate in the first few games this year. He was going to be an all pro like he's just that good and they upgraded a little bit they've got a different right tackle they drafted a first round guard and so you thought okay the o line wasn't that great last year

it's definitely going to be better this year and that'll give the coordinator confidence to run longer developing plays to run schemes that don't require a tight end to stay in for the first two seconds to chip a guy or the running back to not be able to get out because he's worried about helping out and now you're going to have to do that and now that offense is now going to have to be more conservative and going back to the offense that we hated to see last year and not being able to take advantage of Herbert's biggest attribute, which is the fact that he's just got a cannon attached to his shoulder. And Slater gave them that opportunity.

And watching in particular the Chief's Chargers game that there's in a football game, the difference in those offenses, the first half, it was pretty stark. And I was surprised that the Chargers offense was the one that looked unafraid. They were the one that looked like they were on the attack. They were trying to drive the ball down the field. And the Chief's offense, I thought, played a little too conservative. They were worried about the Bosa-Mack combination. They were worried about the offense-al-line.

And what coordinators do is they run the ball more. They have quicker passes. They have more formations that are tighter with chips. And, you know, all three of those things lead to less EPA, less positive offense because running the ball is less productive than throwing the ball. And keeping more guys in to block longer is less productive, because you have less threats going out down the field. And those quicker passes are a little bit more sure,

but they're also a little bit deflating when your quarterback can throw at 80 yards. So this drastically changes what the Chargers offense can do because they're going to be worried that the guy they replaced last year that we all thought was a really poor tackle is now they're starting left tackle. And he didn't have a good debut when he had to fill him for Slater a few days ago.

And you would think that with time and just staying at left tackle, He doesn't have to be the swing tackle now. He doesn't have to practice a bunch of positions. He's just a left tackle. He should, quote unquote, grow into that role just a little bit throughout the course of the year. But, again, you're going from an all pro player to a guy who just got replaced and is, by definition, a backup offensive tackle. And that is such a huge drop off. How does – where does a plan start?

They're playing the Texans this week, so you're not worried about any big-time edge rushers. But if they were playing a team, when they're playing the Raiders and you have to worry about a higher-end elite rusher on that side. How does the plan start? Where do you actually have to start accounting for the fact that you no longer have that player? So from the offensive tackle perspective, I always think about the things I didn't want to do. Number one is like hard play action to my side where I'm running at him on a run fake.

I'm having to lock him up and then hold on to that play. So you think about all the Justin Herbert rollouts where he initially, initially, you know, fakes a handoff to the left and then kind of does a mini roll out to the right, pulls up, launches the ball down the field. Well, most of those plays, the left tackle is the focal point of that play. Like, he's the one that has to run a defensive end, grab him, snatch him up, hold on that block for three, four, five seconds. And they just trust that Slater could do that. He's shown that he could do that. He's a really good player.

Well, now on that play, you either think, huh, I don't know if Norton can do that. I don't know if he's going to give up a quick inside move and this play is going to get beat. Maybe I need to tell the running back who's executing the play fake that he's got to stay in there and he's got to chip the defensive end. Well, usually the running back gets out late and he becomes a form of, you know, flat coverage, kind of the offensive version of pulling out that flat coverage guy so you can get the guy in behind him. And so now, again, you're losing a running back in the route who's an important part of the route to make sure that the third or fourth option is able to be thrown to. So like that's a play that you just have to drastically either change the schematics of or you just can't run because you don't have the trust. And you go to first downs and you think, okay, maybe we don't do any, you know, old school seven step drops. Now it's a five step drop from shotgun.

Maybe we just don't run the two or three of those that we were going to run. And we go to a three step drop and we're getting the ball quicker and we're not pushing the ball down the field. On third downs, you're looking at how can we protect our offense align slash protect our country? quarterback well enough to gain first downs. And so can we hold up on third and eight when we have you know, three guys who are running routes that are a little longer, longer developing? And now you're starting to have to think like, okay, well, do I need to keep the tight end? And again, do I have to keep the running back in? And by nature, now you're getting less weapons out and the play is going to take longer. So even though you have help, now you're putting those interior guys at risk because

they have to hold under blocks for longer. So it impacts every single down. It impacts the entire game plan. Like, you're going into a game now worried, is our O-line going to be able to hold up to this defensive line? Are we going to have enough time for the quarterback to do what he needs to do? Or before, you could just think like, okay, you know, our O-line's going to get beat once or twice. That's football.

We understand that. But we're not limited by their capabilities. And now you're thinking, okay, we're limited by their capabilities. How do we flip the script on that? We run the ball more. We throw shorter passes. We have easier play actions that won't be able to. take advantage of the true nature of play action the way we've come to understand the last couple

years we protect them on third down we don't run deep shots on first down and those are just all things that makes offenses not only predictable but also less effective how does it change for a team like san francisco where their left tackle is a weapon in the run game more than some other teams are missing trent williams is kind of a different proposition for them than it might be for another team missing an elite left tackle so how does it change for the niner specifically without him Yeah, changes in a similar way, but a little different because Trent could do some things on the backside of runs that not everybody else in the world can, and that's why he makes $23 million a year. And so now you're thinking, okay, well, on this run, we used to have Trent. He used to do his little snatch technique, and the running back had seven yards of space on the backside to cut things off.

Well, now I'm not even. What does that mean? So he has this technique. Basically, he uses the defense aligns, you know, teachings or aggressiveness against them. most, you know, linemen, whether defensive or offensive line, you're taught to use your hands and to get your hands inside of the guy's chest. And usually the guy who has hands inside has the leverage. Well, that's kind of what defense alignment are taught. You know, if you've seen video of defense align practice, they've got those little dummies and they fire out and they shoot

their hands in the guy's chest. Well, what Trent does is he basically chops those arms down as they're doing that and or he just grabs them by the back of the head or the back of the shoulder pads and uses that forward momentum and just dunks them into the ground. And it's something that I wish I did more in my career. Like he just has the quickness and the ability and the awareness. And, you know, when you're that big and strong and fast, things tend to go slower because you're faster than who you're going against.

I didn't have that. But I wish I had used that technique a little bit more because, again, you're countering the coaching point of every defense alignment in their entire career, which is shoot your hands, get your hands inside. Well, maybe just drop the hands and they'll fall in their face. And so Trent realized that. And so this outside zone scheme, which, you know, typically the ball is going to get cut back at some point,

not necessarily, you know, cut all the way back to the left tackle, but it tends to end up behind the backside of the O line more often than not. Well, instead of having one guy pushing a defensive tackle and potentially the defensive tackle being able to fall off or just this massive bodies, you now just have all this space created because Trent threw his guy to the ground and is just standing over him laughing at him, and he just had what used to be a really hard block turned into an easy block. So now the cutback hole, again, is 70 yards more condensed and the running back isn't going to feel as confident. So I don't know that Kyle is going to specifically switch too much stuff of the run game.

You know, I think his run game is a bit of the run game is the run game. But I think in terms of production from the running backs, I think it almost is going to be worse on runs to the right, of the things Trent used to do as a left tackle on those cutoffs, where at the point of attack, he's probably not going to leave the left tackle on his own too much. He's going to have Kittle. He's going to have Kyle Eusecheck,

and they're all going to be working in combination. Why are some teams better able to sustain an injury to a starting tackle while other teams, it seems to completely torpedo what they're doing on offense? Is that a structure thing? Is it about the quality of the player? I mean, there are some games where you're sitting there, And the fact that a certain guy isn't playing is evident to you at every single moment. And the Packers last year, maybe just that Yash Naiman is a better backup left tackle than some of the other teams you're dealing with.

But there are times where they could avoid it, where it could be a little bit more hidden. You could survive. Why does it feel like some teams are better able to withstand that attrition at that position specifically? Well, there's a couple things there. One is, like you said, just the quality of the backup. You know, most teams struggle to find two quality starting tackles in general. So once one of those guys, and as we talked about, there's like eight left tackles that are all probably top half of the league, if not totally elite, it's a massive drop-off from an elite left tackle to a backup left tackle. Like, that's just the fact of football.

It's not like wide receiver where there's 100 guys that can play receiver. And the difference between number six and number 40 isn't that stark. But the difference between the six best left tackle and the 40th best left tackle is massive. So there is a personnel component. I think there's also a scheme component. as well, which if you're dropping back more, if you're running more of kind of a quote unquote traditional dropback offense and not necessarily the run action scheme or the McVeigh-Shanehan tree, I think those linemen are a bit more exposed in the kind of dropback tree.

So that's why a guy like Tyron Smith, the drop-off from him to any backup left tackle has always been huge combined with them running a more normal, spready offense that throws the ball more. And so now you're putting that guy at risk more often. So that makes sense. You know, the Packers last year with Bakhtiari, at first they had Jenkins, who was a really good player in his own right. And once he went down, I mean, Nyman's done a pretty good job. But again, that's an offense that can protect those guys pretty well because of the style

of the offense and because of the quarterback and the things he can do. So I think it's a combination of scheme. And, you know, we saw no boom take over for Andrew Wilworth in week one. And he had a pretty rough time against the bills. everyone's had a rough time against the bills, so not picking on them there. But that offense, McVeigh has migrated away from the run play action into more of the spread offense now that he has staffer and he has confidence in his quarterback to execute it. So now that's no longer an offense that you can lose a guy at a tackle position and be able to,

quote unquote, hide them or have an easier time of replacing. And so I'm worried with their offense that they're going to have to regress back to more of what they were under golf because they don't have the protection that they did last year. So it's interesting. I think it's, you know, quality of player and I think it's also very heavily scheme-related. It's really interesting going back to a conversation we've had over the last year, year and a half about positional value and where tackles relate to receivers and all of that. And I think that when everyone is healthy, if you have all of the players available to you,

you could make an argument that what a receiver gives you in the passing game and the value of that is at least equal or surpasses that of a high-end tackle. But the replacement value is where that conversation changes a little bit. Because if the drop off is going to be so huge for a tackle where the drop off is going to be a little bit less for receiver, you know, Lee, where guys are getting hurt all of the time, then that is just one more mark in the tackle column if you're trying to make that argument. Correct. And the interesting thing to take that a step further, I feel like, you know, my theory, we've talked about it. Your O-line doesn't need all-world players and all the positions. Like, I came from Cleveland.

We had Joe Thomas. We had a pretty good offense-al-line. The thing that makes a team great isn't necessarily that you have a Hall of Fame left tackle. And a Hall of Fame-Lef tackle doesn't by himself make an offensive line great. So, yeah, to your point, like, you don't need that guy to be top end. You need all five guys to be, you know, above average or average to above-average. And it helps if one or two of them are special. But the second that you lose one of those and now you go from average or above-average or elite to below-average,

and way below average, this one-week link in the offensive line becomes so glaring of a hole that you have to alter everything about your offense to overcome it. And that's where we get back to the depth. And it's really difficult to have a backup tackle that's good enough to be a starter because the league just doesn't have enough tackles. And if you're good enough to play, you're probably on the field because one of the two tackles is weak enough. And even on these teams where you see the Eagles right now, what happens if Lane

and my lotta gets hurt. I mean, Dillard was the guy, but he hasn't shown really anything. And you know, you wonder about those guys. What happens if one of those two gets hurt? Now you're, uh, going from, you know, an elite right tackle in lane, above average, pretty good player in my lota, again, to a third tackle that I can't even name off the top of my head. So that's where, um, as much as you can, you know, I think having a specialty left tackle as your third tackle, I think teams are going to start looking towards that. This idea. of, oh, it's a swing tackle and he can play right or left side. Well, some guys just can't play the left side.

You know, the Chiefs have had a lot of guys over the years that are much better on the right side. Wiley's better on the right side. Remmers was better on the right side. I was better on the right side. Lucas Nying, you know, better on the right side. Well, having that guy is your third guy, the guy coming off the bench, and Fish gets hurt, and now he's got to play left tackle that he's not as comfortable with, that's a huge

downgrade again. So I think having a spot now that you can dress eight offense alignment and not kind of ruin things for a special teams player. Having one who's very capable of playing left tackle, should the left tackle get hurt, I think it's going to be really important for teams. Can you think of an example at any stop and any guy getting hurt? I know Alex Mack broke his leg at one point. I'm sure you dealt with offensive wine injuries various times in Kansas City.

A specific plan or reaction that Andy or Kyle or somebody that you played for had that was particularly impressive when losing a guy out front? Well, I mean, in Cleveland, when Alex got hurt, we went from being like the third best offense over five weeks to just not being a good offense anymore. I mean, we were average or something. But the reason that Alex Mack made a lot of money, especially in that offense and that Kyle sought him out two other times in his career is because, you know, people have a conception of zone blocking that you kind of just run on this angle and you block whoever's in front of you. but the way Kyle teaches it, you end up blocking man on man a lot more than people think, and you don't have as much help, and particularly the center position, and being able to have a guy lined up who's closer to where the ball is being run at the snap,

and as a center being able to have no space to reach him, not being able to be pushed back and be strong enough to make that reach block, and then gain leverage and drive down field. Well, Alex was the best at that. And you take that away from your offense, and now schematically you do have to change. And so maybe on those plays, you tell the guard, all right, you used to be able to sprint to the linebacker and get on him. Well, now you're going to have to slow down. You're going to have to help out on this new center because he's not good enough to reach the guy on his own.

Or maybe this whole subset of plays against a specific defense would have been run into that. And so you're going to have to motion the tight end and create looks that don't have a nose tackle tilted to the side of the run. So that's a schematic change that after Alex Mac gets hurt, Kyle has to say, okay, we just can't run the ball. to a nose tackle, a one technique on the play side as much as before. So we either have to throw these plays out, or I have to find a way to motion, scheme, call plays that I don't have that nose tackle on the play side at the snap. From the tackle position, you know, I think, again,

it's more the squeezed, condensed formations. It doesn't have to be chips all the time. But you do have to make those D-Ns uncomfortable. They have to feel like they might get chipped, that there might be threatened, and they don't just get to sprint out field all the time. And, you know, Coach Reid was really good at that when we either had injuries at the tackle position or we weren't playing as well or we were going up against, you know, some pretty good pass rushers. He would help us out, not necessarily by chipping the guys, but by condensing formations and making defensive ends feel uncomfortable and unsettled.

The Chargers already are struggling to run the ball. They're 30th in EPA per rush already this season, and that's with Slater Healthy for the first couple of games. Some other really notable teams are down there near the bottom. are dead last in EPA per carry this season. The Bengals are 31st despite all of the cover two that they're playing against. So I wanted to talk about some teams on both sides of the spectrum early in this season. The NFL, their next-gen stats and football operations released something right before we started recording that definitely falls in line with the eye test so far this year.

Scoring is down. Passing efficiency is down across the board. And I think that's for a few different reasons, which I'm sure we'll dig into over the next few weeks. Teams are playing more too high coverage. Coverage two has kicked up a little bit. You know, it's not as drastic as it might seem because we've had all these conversations about how much Joe Burrow is seeing it.

Across the league, it's only up a couple percentage points. Cover four, same sort of deals. We're seeing more too high coverage. We're seeing less man coverage overall. So the answers to the tests are not there for these passing games. And it's made it a lot harder to exploit teams for explosive plays. And I think that's why the running game right now is probably more important in the NFL than it's been, I don't know, at least in the last five years,

maybe even longer than that, because if defenses are going to play this way, offenses gain huge benefits of being able to run the ball. And we're at a point right now through three weeks where passing efficiency and rushing efficiency are dangerously close together. Like they're almost equal, which is wild to think about when you think about how efficient passing offenses had been when you guys were destroying. people in 18 or what some of these teams have looked like over the last five to seven years. So this is maybe a simple sounding question.

When you're watching a team, how quickly can you discern whether they're a team that knows how to run the ball and a team that doesn't? How fast can you pick up on whether a team is a good running team or a bad running team? And what are the signifiers of those in your mind? Relatively quickly, I'd say. Again, it's kind of the eye test. Like you just kind of see it and you understand that. things don't quite look right. And so to that, I would say there's two main things that I look for.

One is the marriage of running back and offensive line and the angles and all those things. So the best teams are coaching the running backs and the offensive line and the tight ends and the receivers even. That on running plays, everyone knows the angle of departure, where the run is quote unquote supposed to hit. And you're all working towards that same goal. you know, for the people listening, if you think of, you know, the offensive line, if they're all working 45 degrees to the right, but the running back is working straight vertically up the field, well, there's a disconnect between those two angles. And you can kind of see some teams, like I think in shotgun, it's a lot more apparent

when the running back isn't being coached on the same angle as the offensive line. It just looks off when the running back is going straight up field vertical, and the O line is trying to work a little bit more to one particular side, are used to, you know, inside zone being on this angle from under center, and they're just not coached well enough. And the running back is, you know, it seems like making cutbacks or running backside of where the angle departure is and guys are falling off and you think, oh, this offense line can't block anybody. And it's like, well, they're blocking for a spot that's different than what the running back thinks the spot is. And so there are those elements of being able to see

disconnects between what's going on. And one from a couple weeks ago. go, I mean, I was talking to Bill Barnwell a little bit on Twitter on a, I think, DeAndre Swift run for a touchdown. And I thought he was almost made the wrong read. I mean, he scored the touchdown, but like what he was doing didn't mesh with what the offensive line was doing. And now he made a really good play. He saw the hole. He cut it back and all those things.

But like, based on what I know of the play call and what the offensive line was executing, like he was on a different path and a different speed than the offensive line. and now that's one of the teams that I'm sure we'll talk about. I really like what they're doing offensively, especially in the run game. But you see these times where the running back and the O-line are just on different angles. And even the receivers, I mean, I thought that was one of Kyle's greatest strengths as coaching the receivers like, hey, this is the angle you block on.

If you block on this angle and your guy makes the tackle because the runner didn't get to where he was supposed to get to, you will not be blamed. I will not do anything to you at all. I will cuss out the running back because he needs to make. you right. And same on, you know, the quarterbacks on certain plays where they're running reeds and there's a receiver out there blocking for him. Like you get so used to, oh, well, I got to square up the corner because the guy could run in any direction on me. And it's like, no, if the quarterback pulls it, he is being taught to run and circle the defense. So you're blocking

for outside leverage of where the quarterback is supposed to be. If the quarterback cuts up field too early and your guy falls off, I will get on the quarterback for not making you right. And so those are the things that I can see when they're not all being coached kind of on the same angles and or they're just not executing that. And schematically, it's all about angles. And, you know, I kind of just talked about that in relation to everyone being on the same page. But one of the great advantages of these schematic guys who can kind of scheme up a run game. And theoretically, the advantage offenses should have with the running game, which, as you pointed out, the EPA is getting dangerously close, run and pass. is you've now got angles to get to guys where you didn't before when there was, you know, an eight-man box against a traditional, uh, 12 or 21, um, you know, package where the O line always felt like they were running uphill or they were at the snap out leveraged. And if you're at the snap out leveraged, the linebacker's faster than you in five yards away from you. He's probably going to run faster than you to where the running back is. Well, now in too high, that guy's over you or behind you. And that allows you to do two different things. It allows you to be strong.

on the double team initially because you don't have to go chase the guy who's already out leveraged you and then number two it allows you more time and more leverage to get to that linebacker. So schematically seeing the teams that can build in those angles and that's where we've seen, I think Shanahan-McBaytree really excel in the run game is building angles for their offense and using the receiver in Jet Motion now becomes a lead blocker and, you know, use check goes in motion. and he tees off on the guy, Kittles blocking, and he climbs to the safety. And we see these really cool things where offense alignment are put in much better positions

and they don't have to use subpar athleticism compared to who they're blocking to go make the block. They're able to use angles and geometry to more easily make blocks. The Brown's offense comes to mind when I'm thinking about teams to do a really good job with that, where they're running into a decent amount of heavy boxes, right? Because they play with a ton of 21 personnel. They play under center a ton in their running game. The Browns are first in the NFL in EPA per rush. It's 0.21.

0.21 is actually an efficient passing offense. If you're averaging 0.21 EPA per dropback, you're doing pretty damn well as a passing game. That's how good the Brown's running game has been. They're facing heavy boxes, eight or more guys in the box, on 43% of their total runs, which is 9th in the NFL. It's not as high as you think it would be,

but it's still pretty high up there. When you look at other teams near the top in EPA, per rush, the Cardinals, for example, right? The Cardinals are fourth in EPA per carry. They're facing eight guys in the box on 14% of their carries. So a lot of these teams that are good at running are good at running because they spread teams out. The Browns do the opposite of that.

They cram things close to the line of scrimmage, but they're so good at building in little shifts, little motions. Let's change the tight end strength. They're using a ton more jet motion this year. So when you're watching them specifically, how do the way they use the tight end and move him around subtly, give them advantages in the run game in your mind. Yeah, to your point, that's manipulation of the defense. That's understanding defensive structure and how you can kind of outflank them.

They seem to use the receivers a lot, kind of as quasi tight ends as well. And so what used to be, oh, the O line has to push to that safety. Well, now the receiver basically becomes a tight end. He can take the safety at the point of attack, and the O line can block him. And they also use Gap schemes really well. They've got two excellent guards, especially run blocking. guards teller in particular that he excels at that compared to his pass blocking where Joel is

pretty equally good at run blocking and pass blocking but they've got two guards they can employ to pull and usually anytime you're pulling somebody you're again creating angles you're down blocking somewhere you're allowing someone to wrap around whether it's traditional power plays where the backside guard pulls or whether it's kind of that pin pull series where the tackle blocks down the tight end blocks down the guard pulls around the center pulls around. That's all creating angles. So the, the Browns are doing it both with the tight end,

as you said, kind of building in those angles. They're doing it with zone schemes. They're doing it receivers. They're doing it with gap schemes with those pullers. And they're kind of hitting all facets of it. And they've got excellent coaching, especially up front. We all know, you know, what Callahan can do with an offensive line. And so they've got a combination of coaching and schematics and skill that allows them to kind of find any deficiency they see in a defense's structure and exploit it. And on top of that, it's not just like, oh, we've got this awesome run. It should work this week. It's like, no, it's going to work because the players are also awesome and they're going to

block them and they're going to make it work. Why don't more teams lean into the heavy gap and pulling stuff the way that they do or the way that the lions do? Is it solely just a matter of offensive line talent and being able to get guys on the move that you trust to make those blocks in space? Why isn't it a heavier dosage in other run games when other teams are using it to such great success? It is a little bit more difficult because, you know, again, you're getting a bigger guy in space and, you know, theoretically he's at a disadvantage on a one-on-one block against a linebacker or even a safety who can kind of line him up and shake him and do whatever they need to do. So there is that element.

And traditionally, you know, those kind of gap power schemes have been quote-unquote messier around. They tend to be more condensed. They tend to be more people in the box, in and around the pile. And you think on a normal power play, you've got, so your five-office alignment, your tight end is on the right, you've got a fullback, you send him to the right, the left guard's pulling, he's going to the right. And now all of a sudden you've got like seven people at the point of attack, probably blocking seven or eight bodies.

And it just is a lot of people in a small amount of space and kind of everything needs to go right, and the running back needs to find that one little crease and make it work. And what Cleveland's doing is they're spreading it out on their gap schemes. That's what Detroit's doing as well. Like you're creating space within the gap scheme that you used to not have. It used to be, you know, three, four yards in a cloud of dust. It used to be power football at the middle and kind of grind it out. Well, now it's gap schemes with the space of modern football.

And so you're just creating more opportunity. How do you accomplish that? Well, you can coach it a little bit differently. maybe on that power play instead of the A-gap being the point for the running back, maybe you can have him bounce one every now and again and kind of threaten the linebackers and show them like, hey, on power, we're not just going to cram it up the middle, we have the ability to bounce it outside.

So you're seeing more of, it's kind of the, it would be a counter scheme where guards are pulling for edge defenders. And so when your guard can kick out a defensive end, you know, you're kind of creating more space than that whole side of the line blocking down. and just kind of having a full back go there and kick it out and having someone wrap around. So the counter schemes tend to open up a little bit more space than a traditional power scheme. So there is a bit of an advantage there. And working on the weak side as well where you're able to, again, whether it's by formation,

whether it's by alignment, whether it's understanding how the defense is going to play, sending someone at an open side defensive end, you can create a little bit of a bigger, gap and a bigger contact point than, again, kind of the old school power football where everyone's at the end of the day trying to just cram it up the middle and it's an A or B gap run. I think we're seeing these gap scheme runs being more of a full spectrum run where you're following your puller, you start on the A gap, but they're just, they're hitting a lot wider than they used to, and you're kind of creating, again, those angles in the space to do that. I want to get back into some of the teams running the ball well, but before we do that, I want to

take a step back and talk about some of the teams that aren't. And when you're looking at a team that's a bad running off, rushing offense. And two teams come to mind that are kind of surprising, right? So if you look at rushing success rate over the first three weeks of the season, the teams that are 32nd and 31st are the Cincinnati Bengals and the Kansas City Chiefs, all of the talk this offseason about the Bengals was them upgrading their offensive line and the moves they made to do that. This is a group that they picked.

They set out to build this offensive line and have that be the five, that they roll into this season with. The chiefs are a year removed from having a very intentional offseason about building their offensive line. So when you're looking at these two teams specifically, what are some of the deficiencies you're seeing from both of those teams and their inability to run the ball efficiently? Well, Cincinnati, they upgraded from an awful O-line, and I think people maybe oversold the additions.

There are a little bit of injuries, too. I mean, Lyle Collins seems to be injured, but he's kind of, always battled injuries and I think you know we thought that he would be like a top five right tackle like the one time that he flashed that he could be a top five right tackle but like that's not his history his history is

you know kind of being injured or being you know not quite as efficient as we would like him to be you know Kava has been a good guard but a good guard he's not a top end guard he's not you know a 15 plus million dollar guard and so he was an upgrade who else did they sign Keras I believe to play in the middle

Yeah. Good player. An upgrade. Is anyone banging the door for him to be like a bona fide top guy in the league at his position? No. And so, you know, we kind of open with wanting kind of quality at all the positions and that is a point. But in the run game, you know, you have to have guys physical moving the ball, moving guys off the ball. And I think we're just not seeing enough people winning their individual blocks to really make it happen. because, you know, this is a run scheme that theoretically should be, quote, unquote, easier because it is kind of the more outside zone.

Mixin has run it really well in the past. I mean, last year, it seems like they were really, really good at and run some of those outside zone schemes, particularly to the open side. And we just haven't seen that this year. So you were kind of assuming that upgrades at three positions, even if they're not upgrades to elite players, you're still going from, again, kind of backup quality guys to average or something. slightly above average quality guys with a similar scheme that worked well enough the previous year that it should work. And so I don't think it's scheme related. I think the guys just need to be a little bit better and you've got to win your blocks. And for the Chiefs, I mean, it's strange because, you know, they've run the ball well in spurts and there was, you know, the Chargers game,

I think it was that Clyde ripped off that long run and they kind of had a four-minute offense drive where they ran the ball more effective than we have in the past. And, And part of it, again, you kind of look towards guys that aren't playing as well as they should. And, you know, Trey Smith is kind of the physical force up the middle there. And he got hurt the first game. And you barely even was able to play in the second game. And based on the Colts game, it doesn't look like he's still completely healthy because he's losing at the point of attack in a manner that he doesn't usually because he's,

if not the strongest guy in the NFL one of the strongest. And so that could be a factor there. you look at schematically as well, are they not quite taking advantage of all the looks that they get, the too high stuff that we talked about? So I think with the Chiefs, it's a little bit scheme, it's a little bit offensive line, it's a little bit just players not making plays when they should be. I'm curious what you think about this. Do you feel like teams that run the ball out of shotgun a decent amount because they're a shotgun passing team

are an inherent disadvantage if their quarterback. it's not a running threat or it's not like a zone readplay. Like Josh Josh Allen is a rushing threat, but I'm talking about just straight runs called by the bills out of shotgun. They've been awful out of the shotgun on those runs this year. The chief success rate and EPA on shotgun running back runs compared to under center is considerably different. The lions are one of the least efficient shotgun running teams in the NFL on place

to running backs and one of the most efficient under center running games in the entire NFL. Do you think it is more difficult to run the ball efficiently on normal running back runs out of the gun? Yes and no. The yes part of it is, again, if the quarterback isn't a threat and you're kind of accounting for that backside defensive end with the quarterback being a threat, but he knows that the quarterback's not a threat and he doesn't have to respect him and then he gets to go into the run earlier than he should, that becomes an issue. I could go on for that a little bit, but I'm going to go on for that a little bit, but I'm going to go. to the no part first. The no part is, I don't think the chiefs or the bills would say we've got awful execution on shotgun runs because they count the passes on the RPO's as efficient runs.

So if they say, all right, well, this was a design run, the O-lines blocking run, but Josh Allen saw that his tight end was open on the RPO and they gave him too much cushion and throws it, well, in their mind, check, that's a seven-yard gain and that's an efficient run. haul. So these numbers are a little bit skewed because of that. But I do understand the flip side is that theoretically if you have all these RPO's and you are handing it off, you should be handing it off into even better looks where the RPO says that you should be handing it off. So I do understand the counter argument to it. But I would say in general, with kind of RPO and throw heavy teams from shotgun, those numbers get a little bit skewed.

But there are some. So I'm curious. Do you feel like there is, do you think there are do you think runs as part of an RPO? Is there something about those runs fundamentally that makes them less efficient runs? I think there's an element of you don't just get to like open up and run it guys the way you do in the Shanahan offense where you're just like so much more on the move and feeling like you're going and attacking and everything's downhill, downhill, downhill. or even for an offensive tackle, like in shotgun runs, like you're probably going to be in a two-point stance kind of regardless of whether it's a run or a pass. Now again, Trent Williams isn't a two-point stance every time,

so that's not necessarily the indicator that, like, a full downhill hardball run needs to be a three-point stance. But I do think in those offenses, you have less, like, truly downhill-feeling outside zone runs where you can just, like, fully unleash on guys. The flip side is, on most of those shotgun runs, you know, you've got your five offense alignment, you're usually getting two double teams. You're getting a guard center double team and you're getting a guard tackle double team,

whether that's front side, backside, kind of however that plays out. So even if you don't get those like hand in the dirt, running down hill, you know, feeling fast and aggressive, you still have these opportunities to get really physical double teams and kind of pick ass in the middle. So the feel is a lot different from an offense alignment, like an RP. Pio run, it just kind of feels less physical, to be fair. Like, especially if you're the front side tackle on a gun inside zone, like, your block is only consequential if you fly out of there and the guy beats you inside.

Like, all you have to do is just want to let your guy and just kind of get in the way and you're going to have a good block. And so maybe eight times a game, you're doing that as a playside tackle on a shotgun run, and you're not getting a feel for the physicality or for the aggression or for getting downfield. And again, this gets back into the whole, like, body blows the sky. and what a run game can do for an offense alignment's confidence, well, if you're allowed more opportunities to fully feel like you can let it loose

and kind of attack guys downhill, maybe that yields more confidence when the runs do get called. Maybe that yields more production on the play action when that is the case. And now you know on the front side of the play action, I know how this guy is going to react because I've already run four hardball runs right at him. So I can feel more confident that I can run into him and snatch him up on this particular play action. So it is a different mindset, I think, for offense alignment. Like, it shouldn't be, and you think that everything would be the same.

But it does kind of feel just, you know, a different vibe, a different feel than kind of a full scheme outside zone rushing attack does. It's the other team you mentioned that you've enjoyed watching the way they've run the ball is the Lions. And I wanted to ask about just the timing on some of these run plays. Because the Alliance have had a couple over the first few weeks where everything is moving. in such choreographed sequence that it just looks beautiful and the way guys are getting to the second level. And this is with backups at times. And that's what I'm so fascinated by because I've had conversations with offensive

linemen in the past. Remember talking to Marshall Yonda about this one. It's just like how you understand when to come off double teams and how you build the zone running game. It requires time and it requires relationships and chemistry and understanding the way the guy next to you plays. So the lions are dropping back. up offensive linemen into this and it looks the same. So I'm just wondering how do teams work on

that sort of timing and execution and cohesion independent of the players that are in there? Because that to me, it'd also be the hallmark of a team that knows what it's doing and running the ball. Yeah, I mean, I didn't watch hard knocks, but it seems like, you know, Dan Campbell offense is probably going to run some run plays and practice and use some practice time on physicality and run play. So I'm guessing maybe they spend a little bit more time on the run game and practice and other teams do. Do you think that's real, by the way? Do you think if you're a team that just throws the ball all the time, it's harder to just flip a switch and run the ball well? Because I think with the Bills and the Rams over the last couple years and the Chiefs too, that has been part of this, is that it's really, really hard to just change your stripes midstream like that.

I do think there is that, you know, again, it gets back to like the offensive line getting in a rhythm, like going back to my Cleveland days. when we sucked and we threw the ball 50 times a game, you know, 25 times in the fourth quarter because we were trying to come back, I felt like I was my best as a pass blocker because I got so many reps at it that I got good at it and I got confident and I kind of understood, again, passing off twists, passing off games, you just do it more often. Well, flip side, if you run the ball more often, you know, theoretically, you're getting into a better groove, you're getting more confident with it.

You're kind of understanding the timing, the rhythm, the flow, all those things you mentioned. So whether the numbers bear that at or not, I think mentally, offensive linemen do get into a flow you do start feeling better the more that it's called obviously it has to like be good you have to be good enough to be making the walks if you have you know 35 runs called and you only successfully block 20 of them you're going to be feel pretty bad because you missed on 15 um so there is an element of making it work but with detroit i mean again i'm sure they kind of practice the run game the physicality that's kind of the basis of the offenses their offense aligned and the run game and yet to your point of everything looking

right and smooth. Like they're doing kind of those gap scheme runs that most other teams aren't doing much of. You're looking at like trap schemes. You're looking at Wham schemes. Wham especially is a tricky play. Like every line coach. Explain Wham a little bit more. Wham is difficult to explain.

But essentially like the backside tackle is like running to a linebacker. The backside guard is like blocking the defensive end instead of the backside tackle. Like the center has got to run up to the linebacker. but essentially at the point of attack, you're using either a tight end or a fullback to kind of trap or seal a three tech or a defensive tackle. And then the running back is supposed to hit just outside of that. And then you're using someone to then kick out the defensive end and someone to get to the lineback on the second level. And you kind of create this old school crease of one guy gets blocked down, one guy gets blocked out, and the running back's able to hit it. And everyone's on the same page.

well because basically everyone is doing like something that they don't normally do it requires a lot of practice and a lot of skill at understanding what to do against that particular defense and why you know offensive coaches don't run it more often is because it's a tricky play to scheme because once you get into we got to prepare for this and this and this and this and this like you don't just have basic rules that all right i'm going to work to this linebacker and i'm going to double team with this guy it's like well on this look the guards actually can't kicking out of him, running to the linebacker. But if the defense line is on the other side, he's going to block, like, there's all these kind of thinking things that, you know, coaches try not to bog you down with. They try to stick with what is kind of most digestible for that particular week. And so it's a play kind of like trap. Trapp is where the backside guard pulls. You basically don't block the three tech on the front side.

And he kicks out. And that one's a little bit more inside kind of in the A gap where Wham is more of a B, C get play kind of outside the three tech. But those are timing-based, and when everything aligns and the guy kicks out at the right speed, the running mack hits the hole, they look awesome. And some coaches, you know, call them big little plays where it's either going to be a big play and everything looks right or it's going to be a little play because one little thing breaking down and all those individual parts flowing together and it looks really bad.

And the lines are just like abnormally successful with wham plays. and they're the best at the Wham and the Gapst up since, you know, the Eagles five years ago when they were kind of on their Super Bowl run and they were able to. That's the other team I was thinking about. All those guys were so good on the move. You can just see it. Like you can just see exactly what that picture looks like with Brooks and the tight ends and all those. Yeah.

And what that scheme means if you're able to run it well is that not only are your linemen like physical and good run blockers, but they're also mentally sharp. And that gets back to what you're saying about being able to plug in backups. like plugging in backups and running outside and inside zone, like, okay, again, that's a relatively easier scheme. You're repping the same thing more often. When you have this many variations of gap scheme concepts, like, you have to take more time to rep all those things.

So maybe you're doing more walkthroughs. Maybe you're doing less individual work in practice and you're doing more scheme-oriented stuff. But to do that, when you're down two guards and two pretty good guards at that, it's even more impressive. So this Detroit line was kind of the kind of sleeper top three offensive. line going into the year. I think they've shown us they deserve to be there. And the fact that they've done that with two backup guards, you know, Big Beam, some people might say he's

the worst one of the five, but if that's your worst offense alignment, I think you're doing pretty good. And then Jonah Jackson, who's everyone's kind of candidate to be the best kind of break out new guard in the NFL, and he's been out a few games too. It's even more impressive. So it's this marriage of timing, rhythm, scheme, flow, mental ability. physicality, and you could tell there's a lot of confidence in that building with running the football. I'm wondering, I remember talking to Jeff Stoughton before that Super Bowl that the Eagles won, and we were talking about all of the different ways they ran those running plays. And it sounded like Jason Kelsey had a ton of say in autonomy, and other guys in the room too,

about the solutions they would have to different problems that a different front would present them. They didn't have one way that we're going to block this. It was in the moment or during the week. It's like, well, what if we did it this way? There was a lot of ownership in the room. Is that normal? Do offensive lines have that sort of say in how those problems are going to get solved? And if you have a line like that, do you feel like that gives you a pretty big advantage?

It's not normal, especially to that degree. If you do have a line like that and you have an offensive line coach that's willing to listen to the input, it gives you a massive advantage because you're like listening to your guys, you're empowering them. you're saying like, hey, if you have a better way to do it, let's do it. And, you know, we've seen with a lot of these coaches and, you know, Mike McDaniel this year in particular, like, I'm not just going to do conventional wisdom. Like, I'm going to try to find the best way to do it regardless of how it's been done in the past. Well, now if you're allowing Jason Kelsey and Lane Johnson and Jason Peters and was nasty and Samuala and like all these guys who are really good players to be like, hey, coach, I know you're asking me to do that.

But like, I think I can do it this way. and I think it actually might benefit the play. And now you're using on-field experience to then go, like, yeah, let's try it that way. See what you can do. And they go do it and it's successful. Like that benefits everybody because now you've created a better scheme. You've allowed your guys, you know, input in the offense and kind of territory over their particular schemes and their techniques. And it just benefits everybody.

And you've got an offense line again that's mentally far enough advanced to be like, you know what? I think I can do it better this way. and physically good enough to then execute it. So it speaks volumes of an offense line to be able to do that. It's not super typical. Every now and again, you'll go to a coach and be like, hey, we're running it this way. Like this defense alignment is playing a little more physical on the guard. And I don't think I can get a good piece of them on the double team.

So can I try this technique this week? But like, that's this technique this week. That's not like in the middle of the game. Be like, eh, the guard was going to run to the linebacker on Wham, but I'm having a hard time cutting off the detackle. So I'm just going to knock him over onto the guard and I'll be the one bouncing up to the linebacker. And your online coach is being like, okay, if that's what you want to do, do it.

That's very, very abnormal. And it's really cool when it all comes together like that. So you mentioned the Lions as a team that's impressed you, which is the construction of their offense. Any other play callers or play designers through the first three weeks that have caught your eye that are really making it easy on there, guys? Yeah, it's interesting because you look at like. like what Doug Peterson's done in Jacksonville.

And I think we're all kind of excited to see the Trevor Lawrence breakout. And like sure enough, Doug can kind of design an offense and he can make it look good. And that's something that, you know, we, again, these young quarterbacks, we get so excited by the potential and we want them to reach the potential. And being able to, you know, be in a scheme that can open things up and being coached the right way makes a huge difference. And to me, I mentioned them just before Mike McDaniel. in Miami. I think we're all really excited to see what his version of that offense would look like.

We kind of know the Ivy League background, and he's brilliant, and he doesn't take no for an answer, and he tries to find the best way to do it regardless of how it's been done in the past. Well, he's kind of playing 4D chess with some pretty elite pieces. And, you know, again, he said, you know, speed is basically a prerequisite, like, we need to have it. It's not something like, oh, it would be nice if we got fast guys. Like, no, we understand the impact speed has on games.

And so now we can put, you know, elite scheme into elite players and elite athleticism. And you can stretch the field in every direction as far as it can be stretched. And that offense in particular, I didn't expect it to be that much shotgun. He's, I think, leaning into a little bit of what Tua has done well in the past and kind of the RPAOs and the quicker stuff and not, you know, necessarily needing to run all the play action and run scheme from under center that Kyle and that McVeigh have done in the past. And I've been surprised by that.

Which, again, is great to see that he's like, hey, Tua likes this stuff. I can still scheme it up at a shotgun. I can make him happy and comfortable. And now this is where I get to be a Tua hater. Like, he hasn't necessarily done anything that I didn't think he could do or that didn't expect him to do. Like, I think we all thought that the best version of Tua could run a high-level offense, like pretty effectively and efficiently.

he mentally can process things quickly. He can get the ball out fast. He can throw the ball downfield 50 yards when he's got a clean pocket. Like no one with the brain questioned him on whether he could do those things. We just haven't necessarily seen him be tested on the things that we want to see to call him like a top level, top five quarterback, where the guy that can create out of structure and all those things. I know he's had a couple plays where he's broken the pocket and kind of made something happen at the end of the play, but not to the level of an Allen or Mahomes or Herbert.

flip side. He hasn't needed to. He hasn't needed to. It's been three games. Because McDaniel has designed this awesome offense that's working really well. And it's just working. So I've been, it's been awesome to watch. You know, I want awesome quarterbacks in the NFL. I want top level guys.

If the worst thing you can say about two after the years over that he's a high level game manager and they're 13 and four with a one or two seed, like that's a pretty good problem to have. So they're trending in that direction. You know, they only had 39 plays the other day. They still won, but the offense was still executing and doing some good things. So this is an offense that, again, is going to get better as they go because McDaniel's going more comfortable with what his guys can do now that he's seeing in live action.

He's already scheming up good stuff. Two is going to get more confident. He's having a ton of fun out there. It's just been really cool to see. I mean, you'd say it's going to get better as they go. And I understand that as an argument. But I also think that the same way we didn't know, it was going to look like.

Defenses didn't know what it was going to look like. They've been able to completely jump on people from the get-go here because there was nothing for anyone to base their expectations or game plans on. So I do think that there's going to be a moment at some point later in the season when they put him in a position where he has to make a play because there's tape out there. There's more than two weeks of tape available for what the Dolphins offense is. And I don't know what's going to happen in that moment, but we have not reached that moment yet. Right. I mean, again, that was what Josh Allen proved to us last year against the

Chiefs and the playoffs. He had to get into that super high leverage moment and perform as well as he could perform to finally be like, okay, this dude is a top three quarterback, top two quarterback, maybe the best quarterback in the NFL. Like, to your point, it's only been three games. Yeah, that was a big game last week, but it's still week three of the NFL season. There's going to be a breaking point at some point in the year where either in the regular season or once we get into the playoffs where he's going to be tested things aren't going to be going well and we're going to see if kind of all honestly this confidence, this goodwill that he's built up over the first few weeks of playing relatively normal quarterback play whether he can carry that into the highest leverage

situations. All right. Anybody else you want to mention before we get out of here? I don't think so. I'd say you've impressed me so far this year. gone with your fast and furious pace on all these shows. I don't know how you managed to keep it up. I guess a lot of caffeine and just powering through lack of sleep. But I think your offensive strategy has been quite impressive so far. We've been unrelenting, man. We're going, no letting up here.

It's all gas, no brakes. I had a weekend this weekend where we went to a music festival in San Francisco on Saturday night. And it was West Coast, so I had to wake up and watch games at 10 a.m. on Sunday. And we got back from the festival probably like midnight. And hotel bed slept like garbage. Woke up, started watching games, did the show. I was going to another concert in Chicago on Monday.

So I couldn't just stay and do the Monday afternoon show in San Francisco. So I had to fly back at 6 a.m. After getting like two hours of sleep in my shitty hotel bed on Sunday night. And then we did the show yesterday. And then I went to another concert last night. And I'm driving up to the show last night. And I'm thinking, man, this entire sequence, of events was planned by the 25-year-old version of me.

Like, under no circumstances should I have thought that this was accomplishable from the current state that I'm in physically at 35. But we did it. I'm here. We're doing the show again. That was the only time so far the season. I'm like, mistakes were made. I was Joe Bluth, and I was just sitting there like, I've made a huge mistake.

Well, we've got, we made it all the way through. You've got a buy week coming up, I'm sure. And then a Thursday game with a mini buy after that. I'll be totally fine. Yeah, you'll have plenty of rest. This is the greatest job there is. I absolutely love it. But there definitely was a moment yesterday.

I was too much. Because I've always been that. It's like, oh, I can make it work. I can make it work. We'll go to the show on Saturday in San Francisco, and I will make it back for the 8 p.m. show on Monday in Chicago. It'll be totally fine. And even though technically I was right,

it was a lot to. Definitely my eyes were bigger than my stomach with my social calendar over the last few days. Maybe a couple more years. You can get that private jet travel on the contract, and then you can make it work. Yeah, you can talk to my boss at the athletic about. that.

All right. Mr. Schwartz, really appreciate it, buddy. So good to chat with you. Obviously, you will be back multiple times throughout this season. We'd love having you on the show and appreciate you taking the time out of your busy retirement schedule to make this work for us. Thank you. Yeah, I'm missing out on a lot of golf to be here with you.

So it's really frustrating and difficult for me. What are you going to do during the winter? I mean, I guess you have a simulator now, but not being able to play a few rounds of golf. I mean, you're getting to the point now where you're going to have to be inside for too long. So the simulator does exist. So that is a thing.

And the big reason why I built it into my house. And I'm going to utilize that. And I mean, it doesn't get like so cool. I mean, if it's in the 40s, I'm fine. I'm still a big deal with a lot of insulation. So I can go out there, throw on a half zip or something and get to the golfing. But no, it's honestly this particular offseason, you know, golf off season, it's just, it's an opportunity to work on my game and kind of like fix some fundamental.

things that, you know, I struggle with. And I'll have a few months where I don't necessarily have to be playing outdoor golf. And I can just kind of like practice. And that like practice aspect is so ingrained in me that I actually don't mind like kind of that process of trying to work through some things and trying to get better. It's why golf has suited me so well so far in this retirement life because it's impossible to be perfect and I'm a perfectionist. So there's always something to get better with and to attain.

And you go and you play with better guys and you walk. pro guys and like you see all these things you play better courses and you realize like man i had that like one really good score i thought i was like starting to do a little bit better and just like there's so much more that you don't understand and they can get better at and i still like that process and i kind of like the structure of having this thing to work towards and to you know hopefully attain that isn't really attainable we'll play around next year we'll make it happen somehow i i'm a little bit worried, though, because my fiance has two rules for me, essentially, that I can't do. One is I can't be a watch guy, and two, is that I can't be a golf guy. And thanks to you,

I've already become a watch guy. And if I become a watch, also a golf guy, thanks to you, I think she may track you down. So, you know, unfortunately, she'll know where I live. So, yeah, I got to, you know, maybe we can go to St. Louis. You can pretend to be golfing with someone else. That would be a good move. That would be a good move. We'll do it at a neutral location in order to hide your All your personal information. All right. But always appreciate chat with you. We'll definitely do it down the road again. All right.

Thank you. All right, guys. That's all we got. As always, really appreciate you listening. We will be back tomorrow with Mike Jones, as we mentioned earlier on the show. Really excited to have Mike as part of the athletic NFL family. So please come back and check that out. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform choice.

I sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to our YouTube. channel. The link is in the description of this show. So if you could go do that, that would be amazing. That's all we got. We'll be back with Mike tomorrow. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the athletic football show.