The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - What success for 2023's first-year regimes looks like; Introducing The Playcallers, The Athletic's upcoming podcast series, with Jourdan Rodrigue

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

There are five new regimes across the NFL this season—Jonathan Gannon in Arizona, Shane Steichen in Indianapolis, DeMeco Ryans in Houston, Sean Payton in Denver, and Frank Reich in Carolina. Each of those regimes will define success in their own way. What do we think success looks like for those teams in 2023? Robert Mays and Nate Tice answer that question on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Then, Jourdan Rodrigue joins Robert to introduce The Playcallers, the new podcast series from The Athletic. Debuting on Monday, July 10, The Playcallers explores the relationships shared by Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur and Mike McDaniel, and how their systems are shaping modern offensive football.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Jourdan on Twitter: @JourdanRodrigueSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeStay cool and dry all summer with Birddogs and get a FREE Yeti-style tumbler at birddogs.com/athletic use promo code ATHLETIC at checkout Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. A little bit later, our Rams writer at The Athletic. Jordan Rodriguez is going to be joining us to announce our newest narrative podcast series at The Athletic called The Play Callers. This is kind of monstrous. Jordan got pretty much every relevant member of the Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh,

coaching tree to talk about the history. of that offensive system, how it's changed, how it's evolved, the biggest moments going back from you know, Kyle Shanahan's time, 2006, 2007, when he went to Houston, the history of the offense with Mike Shanahan, their relationships together when they started to work together in 2012 in Washington, kind of how it splintered from there, some of the more challenging moments that this offense has had, whether it's Kyle Shanahan in 2016 and the 28 to 3 game, what Sean McVeigh had to endure for those first couple of years in L.A. Aaron Rogers and Matt LaFle were in their relationship in Green Bay,

Mike McDaniel's role in this entire thing. All of these guys are on the record. Their voices are in this show. It's five episodes, and we're going to dig into what it is with Jordan. It is going to be coming your way in the Athletic Football Show Feed all five episodes on July 10th. Similar to what we did with luck last year. Zach obviously did such an incredible job with that series.

I have no doubt that Jordan will be doing just the same with what she has done with the play caller. So very excited to talk to Jordan. little bit later on. Before we do that, though, I am pleased to welcome my good friend, Snaidt, Tyney, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing well. I want to listen to that show. Yeah, fuck our show. Let's just start that now. Just put it on. No, I'm doing absolutely awesome here in Chicago. We're in the same place. We are in the same place. I got a nice little mini-mic. You know, NPR has got the Tiny Desk. Yeah. Yeah, this is the podcast Tiny

Tiny Desk. That's why I kind of feel like right now. Great acoustics in here. So it's going to be, I think, a very good show. No, happy to be in Chicago, beautiful weather. It's just no humidity yet. It's like, what is this? Yeah, I just jakes it. Yeah, no. That is an amazing thing about Vegas. I know that it's always the joke and everything.

Oh, it's a dry heat and everything. But I'm telling me, no humidity and no mosquitoes is like a amazing aspect. We have had, and I've actually been gone for the last two weeks because I was in Greece where the weather is, it's hard to beat 73 degrees every day. but my wife, when she got back, she were walking the dog on, we were walking to the farmer's market on Sunday with my wife. I was walking to the farmer's market. And she goes, man, it's been a real mild summer here, I think, so far. And I was like, you shut your fucking mouth. Like, what are you talking about?

So hopefully this continues, but it has been very, very good. That being said, I'm going to see LCD sound system in a park on Sunday. And it's supposed to be 90 and rainy. So I'm pretty sure it's going to be coming for us very soon. All right. we are going to talk about, this is the show we've done in years past, and I actually think it's a really good exercise. We're going to talk about the first year regimes this year and what constitutes success for these teams because it's not the same, right? I mean, it's not a win total for everyone that doesn't necessarily matter, the expectations from ownership, from the fan base.

It's a moving target for all these teams, even if they have first year head coaches and in some cases first year GMs. So I think going through this and talking about what these teams, can reasonably expect and what bar they need to clear to be successful, quote unquote, is a really good way to think about these first year coaches, these first year regimes as they kick off. Right. And especially, yeah, everybody, we all want to say that, of course, the goal is to win the Super Bowl.

But let's be honest, as we did in our, who was trying to win the Super Bowl show, God, that show actually had more legs to it than maybe I thought I was just referring to it. But no, everybody has a different realistic goal. And like you said, it's not just wins, it's not just making the playoffs. Some teams, it is. And some teams, some of these teams, that's what's going to be. But also it's just other parts of the roster. Is this guy going to be a building block?

Is this guy the guy at the quarterback position, et cetera, et cetera. But that's what every team's got different goals, not just win total and all that, but also just how, where do we go from here? Is this a good launching pad to our regime? Because that's what it is. They don't want to be there for a decade or more. But we know how the NFL is, not for long. that's what they're hoping for is that this is a launching pad to sustain success or at least a path to sustained success.

The team that I'm going to keep coming back to and thinking about, oh, as we do this show is probably the Lions a couple years ago, right, where it's a total tear-down job. I'll refer to them when we talk about the Cardinals here in a second, but the way we talked about the Lions that year and the way that they looked on the field, that was success for that team. They were one of the worst teams in the league, but when you look back on that season, it's like that's successful and then think about where we are right now. Remember that Rams game? I mean, that was on this pod, we were just like, that felt like something, even though they lost it. And he threw the, Dan Campbell, threw the whole kitchen sink, fake punts. And I think they did an on-site kick as well. They had a whole, all these gimmicky stuff.

And that's the, that's the game I referred back to all the time where I saw Dan Campbell talking to that backup DB and how he just encouraged him was so, so cool. And I was like, this might be something. That team was 313 and one. Okay. And I think that, again, it's very indicative of the conversation we're going to have here, right? And that's okay. And honestly, I mean, not to the same extent, but the way that last year's bear season felt at times where there's excitement, even if you're losing games, you're playing the right way. Having a quarterback that is a first round pick and a guy you spent on in his dynamic, that helps.

Not all these teams have that. But again, that sort of feeling where you can be the worst team in the league, but if you've kind of instilled a certain optimism in your fan base and the people rooting for you, that can be success. Yeah, that Eagles game for the Bears. It's a very good example. That was a real one where it was like, oh, this stuff might be doing some good things. Even I can't name more than two starters, but they're doing some good things, especially on the defense. But sometimes you have those catalyst moments for some of these regimes that aren't trying to make the playoffs, but they need still those victories. My dad in his first year, is a head coach with the Vikings.

They went from just a horrid year in 2001 with Denny Green. They took over, he took us over in 2002. They had Moss and they had Culpever. Coal just came up. Terrible season. They're reconfiguring the whole team. terrible, what a low payroll and everything. There were three and ten going into the last three weeks,

then they won three straight. And then they went into the next year. And I know this is kind of, you can go back and forth, but that really, like, built some confidence. Sometimes it matters. Sometimes it doesn't, right? It's not always an indicator of what's to come,

but it can matter if you feel like you bottled something. And they went six and no to start the next year. And they became, I think, the second team ever to not make the playoffs after going six and out, but that was the Nate Poole Cardinals game in a week 17, but in 2003. But still, it really did build some confidence in the building. We got something here.

They went for two against the Saints to win the game. But there is something too. Those are those small victories, the moral victories that sometimes we make fun of. No, they actually can mean something. Let's talk about a team that's going to need some moral victories this year. And I think most of their victories will be moral. And that is the Arizona Cardinals. I think that among all the teams we're going to talk about, they are at square one.

They have the furthest to go. So when you're thinking about, again, what constitutes success for the 2023 Cardinals? Where do you start? Oh, my goodness. I'd say first and foremost, it's fair out what our building blocks are. I think that's number one. That's it. And what is working for us?

I think that's, and if they can get something out of Kyler this year, but who knows, like, okay, do we have a good relationship with Kyler? Is this a guy we can work with? I think those are the goals that it's more chemistry. It's so funny to me that I just don't care about that. It's funny, right? I just don't care about that. I was going to mention this last, we might as well mention it first, like the Kyler question.

As I think about what when I get to the end of the year, what I want to say and feel about the Cardinal? Kyle was like really far down the list for me because he's not going to play for a good chunk of the season. I guarantee you he's not going to play for longer than if they were a competitive team. You know, they get to week 10 and they're playing hard and it's not really going so great they're going to get the number one pick. It's like, you know what? You take your time.

You come along at your own pace here. And if they get to the end of the season, they're the worst team in the league and they have the number one pick. And this is a draft where Caleb Williams is available. And beyond that, if you look at some of these other teams that have kind of kicks started things. They've traded an asset for more pieces. The Lions got to trade Matthew Stafford. Think about what the Bears just did. Seattle with the Russell Wilson trade. So these teams that kind of get there faster than we anticipated, it usually involves accruing more assets somehow.

They couldn't trade DeAndre Hopkins, but can they trade Kyle or Murray after this season for something? So it is funny that they just paid a very young quarterback, a lot of money, and he doesn't necessarily factor into whether or not, I think, the year is a success for them. crazy to think. Maybe I'm wrong. I might be totally wrong, but that's how I see it. I think it's kind of a, in the weirdest way, kind of a win-win for them. Because they can truly either go, okay, you know, cowards, maybe. It's a win-win unless they win too many years. Yes, they're right. Yes. That's very, very true.

So win-win if they lose. Win-win by losing is exactly how it should be. But no, it's a great point because, I mean, shoot, I just, I watched Drake May and Caleb Williams and even this other guy, Riley Leonard from Duke. kidding. I'm just like, there's some juicy quarterbacks for this next year's class. So, but it's, I think they see that as well. They're going to be obviously hyper aware of the quarterback situation for this next year's draft.

And I think that's so, so interesting that this former number one pick who 2021, halfway through the season was an MVP candidate. Yeah. And then he gets hurt and that's kind of started the whole domino effect of this whole organization. And then now it's like a new regime. Usually like a new regime comes in. It's like, oh, we already got the quarterback. Like when Mike Smith was fired from the Falcons, it's like, we're going to got Matt Ryan. So that was like a hot spot.

You want to go get Matt Ryan? But here it's not the obvious punctuation mark. It might be a question mark still. So I think it's just a unique situation. Also just stylistically, I think just the staff is going to be so interesting because, one, not a lot of players, but you can see kind of how much motivation they get if they do anything schematically interesting. I always see sometimes that's fun with some of the bad teams. It's like that's why the Falcons were pretty fun last year.

It's like, you don't have a makeshift roster. What do you do with it? But I think it's just so interesting going from the Cardinals last year were in shotgun for 90% of their plays, which is first in the NFL, the Browns last year where the office coordinator is coming from. It was 25th. And then the 10%...

And that's even as only as high as it was because of Deshaun. Yes. And because of how he likes to play. Oh, you look at Jacoby's Bresed's numbers. It's higher than that. I actually thought they would be higher, or lower, I guess. And then the other one was the personnel. The Cardinals were in 10 personnel,

no tight ends, 5% of their plays last year, which is actually a significant. them out. Brown's only ran one play the entire season. I've 10 personnel. I just think those things are interesting because it's like if they do have Kyle for the second half of the year, I'm just assuming this. But if they do, then how are they going to use, are they going to put them under center? Cowher's been an air raid guy since probably eighth grade. You know, so like how do they get him under center? Not that he can't do it. They would do in the red zone. But I just think those kind of things can be interesting to watch and keep tabs on. But over all this

organization is very much in flux. I'm going to be fascinated about what Cowlers. And we're with so much time to talk about this, but I'm already interested in it. It's like what his trademark might look like after the season. Because that stretch you talked about in 2021. If you're the Vikings. Right. Okay. And you have few paths to a quarterback with him and Justin Jefferson.

And like it's very expensive. But we've talked about this. The Vikings are going to be in a place where they're not spending a lot of money on expensive veteran players. They have a lot of young players on rookie contracts. Even if the Jefferson deal is coming, can they afford a $50 million quarterback? And if you drop that into what they already have, what happens. So teams in that situation where we don't have that many avenues to a guy, is he still going to have value? My gut feeling, even with the contract, is yes.

Maybe it's not multiple first round picks, but it's going to be something. But the offense and what the offense looks like question, that was one of the things I wanted to mention. You look at the Lions and when they switched over to Ben Johnson in the second half of that season in 2021 and what the offense started to look like, you could really feel a shift. When he started calling plays, they became fun to watch even if they had no talent. Then you look at what they looked like last season. And obviously, they're top three team by your paper plays, one of the hottest play colors in the league. Fostering that sort of offensive environment is important.

Even if you don't have the talent to really be a top flight offense, we know nothing about true petting as an offensive coordinator. He's never been an offensive coordinator. He's somebody that I, Kevin Stefanski knew he was going to lose him at some point. He interviewed with the Raiders last offseason. And then when Jonathan Gannon gets this gig, Gannon was withdrew in Minnesota. Soda for years when they were together. And so he is somebody that coaches around the league have respect for. He's been Stefanski's right-hand guy for years.

But we don't know. We have no idea now that he gets this opportunity what it's going to look like. But if it looks good. And I don't mean they have to be a good offense. I mean, is this a place where you are getting the most out of the offensive players that you have? Is this a hospitable offensive environment? And if you can start to create that, then again, I think that is a checkmark for it.

This was a successful season, even if you finish 23rd in offensive DVOA. Yeah, you can actually almost get more. This is actually not kind of obvious now that I've played in my head. But you actually can see more out of coaches when the talent is less. When it's a worse roster, that's when you can actually see who's getting the most out of the players, like you're saying. Like, that's why high on Ibrose and even Getzi for the Bears is because what they were doing with what they're roster last year. But I think the, I wanted to see Kyle were in the under center office. I just, I've just, just, just curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I really do. I don't know why. It's just one of those.

I'm just curious. I want to, I want to, because, okay, he, he, Stapansky with the Browns. Staphancy's been through several regimes throughout his life, and especially with the Vikings, because he's, a few teams or a few, uh, is there for like 14 years. He's there forever. Yeah. Started with Childers and with Brad Childers. So when you watch them with the Browns, you can see, okay, what is the stuff that he actually loves? And you can see that he gives some credibility or he gives leeway to Bill Callahan, which I would too if Bill Callahan was my offensive line coach.

But I think that also speaks, okay, petzing is Stefansky's right-hand man, showing that adaptability. Yeah. Okay, all right, that's interesting. Again, it's not him doing the play calling, but he sees that. He probably saw that kind of workshopping of ideas,

and I think that's going to be what's interesting. And that's why I wanted. seen with Kyle, but I'm just going to see what he does with this offense. I want to see what he does with Hollywood Brown gets anything out of the tight ends. Like I just, yeah, it's a weird team. So the curiosity is in which is interesting is kind of like different than what would be other teams, defensively too, but offensive especially. You mentioned him being there through multiple regimes. It's the same thing with Drew in Minnesota. He got there in 2014. So you get the Norv Turner era. You get the Pat Schumer era. You get the Kubiak time. You get the Kevin Steebius. Well, the

Kubiak offense under Stefanzky. So multiple different kinds of offenses over that stretch. The John DiFilippo year, which was its own interesting experiment. Do we even call that a year? It was a stretch. John D. Filippo stretch. The quarter. The last thing I wanted to mention, you meant talked about this at the top, and I think

it's worth our visiting before we move on, is where your building block is coming from. So from the last couple classes, can you just get something from that group? Obviously this year, right, with Paris Johnson and Ojo-Oari and the guys that. that they drafted high. But with last year, too, you know, can you get something out of Tray McBride? Can you get something out of Cam Thomas? Can you get something out of Majai Sanders? So Sanders played 260 snaps last year.

He had 17 pressures. Cam Thomas played 237 snaps last year. He had 19 pressures. Right. So can you just find, by the end of the season, five players, five to eight players where you're just like, this is going to be a guy we can rely on two years from now as a member of a competent football team? And the last part, that competent football team thing, by the end of the year, are they playing hard?

Then that brings me back to the lines. Where by the end of the season, it's just like, these guys give a shit. They're a three-win team, but they are playing in a way that leads me to believe that there's buy-in, there's enthusiasm, there's a feeling within the building that guys want to be a part of this. And Gannon was brought in not because of like his defensive prowess. And, you know, that's, he is supposed to be a culture guy. That's why they wanted him. That's like his big thing. So can you, does that show?

Yeah. Can that manifest? Can that be expressed by the time you get to the end of the season? I think that's really important. No. And also just using guys like, what you're saying, talking about past picks and everything. Like a guy like Isaiah Simmons last year finally came along as in the slot. And it's, it's okay.

Are you guys going to just cheese? You're not giving up the ghost. I love you so much. No, no, no. I'm not. That shit was sale to me. I'm like, you know what? So I'm in the slot last year.

I was like, okay, okay, okay, here we are. This is a, we got a guy. But just something like that. It's like, okay, are we actually going to coach this guy up? Not that Vince Joseph did a fine job. Then we're going to talk about him in a sec. But it's, he did a fine job with what they had. It's not much on his roster.

So that's where I'm just curious if they see something different with some of these guys. You never know what sometimes the regime just goes like, oh, this, I think we under you, the last step underutilized you. Okay, we're going to use you this way. That's why I'm just interested to see. So just to add on to that. And they have a young defense coordinator. and Nick Rawls, who I know personally, which is the weirdest thing in my life. I'm telling you, like, he was my friend's little brother at United of Minnesota.

So I'm very happy for Nick, but these guys were cut out for him. But at least he has, sometimes it's bad when the head coach is the position you coach. That's kind of, I've heard from a lot of quarterback coaches. It's like the worst is when the head coach is a quarterback guy because it's like, you're never free. You're never free. But it's sometimes it's not the worst thing. Maybe it's your first time calling plays or first time looking over a unit and you have somebody with some experience behind you.

All right. Let's get to our next team here. The Indianapolis Colts. What does success look like? Where does success start for the 2023 Colts in your mind? Maybe you should mention this. Shane Steichen is now the head coach of the Colts. He has taken over there.

So just as a reminder, Jonathan Gannon was hired as the head coach of the Cardinals. So just in my mind, people know this stuff, but probably worth like a slight refresh. Shane Steichen, who was the offensive coordinator for the Eagles last season, is now the head coach. of the Indianapolis cults. There we go.

My question stands. I like that. I would say is make sure Anthony Richardson has a nice peaceful rookie season, I think, is the one goal that makes sure our quarterback of the future has a conducive season to success and maybe to the future. I'd say just getting the ship back right. I would say offensively. I say defensively, I thought they did a great job. So I'm not saying, I'd say success. And continuity there.

Gus Bradley is back as the defensive coordinator. And I think that they probably agree with you, that there was some stability on defense that they'd like to make. maintain. I think so. So I think in success for them is a, I keep coming back to the term peaceful, but a smooth, velvety season as much as it can be for a project E-type quarterback, even though I don't think as much as project as these going to be, as people have made them out to be. But I think that is success for the season. Make sure their quarterback has a good year, the rookie quarterback, Andy Richardson, but also getting the offense right and then also making sure the defense is just sustained success. I'm not going to put a win count on this. I just think it's just. I don't think it matters. I think for these first couple teams, you can throw that out the window,

and I think they're very much in that boat. Yeah, I think it's just getting everything right. I think that's, it's like a vibe season. It's like, let's get the vibes back in order. And this team had some good ones a few years ago. I think just getting that back in order with a new staff and everything, or half a new staff, I should say. I think there's a lot of optimism about what Shane Steichen's background has looked like,

the different types of quarterbacks he's worked with, and what that has ended up producing, right? So you have Justin Herbert, and then most importantly, you have what Jalen Hertz looked like over the last couple years. So when people have started to kind of build optimism about this, those are the dots that they've connected. It's like, okay, look at what he did with J-1-Hertz. Now he has Anthony Richardson.

Oh, man, like, just think about that. Well, that has to work. Like all of that theoretical talk about this is the right guy for this kind of quarterback, that has to actually show up. If that shows up, if Shane Steichen's quarterback bona fides that we have talked about here over the last few months after the draft of Anthony Richardson come to fruition, that is the first mark of sense. success.

Like that is evidence that he is the guy. That is evidence that Anthony Richardson might be the guy. And if those things aren't true, nothing else fucking matters. And especially start with the GM. Yeah. It's like this is their bet. That's why he's a bet. All these guys are gambling.

You're gambling on these picks. And he's one of the biggest bets you can make and one of the biggest payoffs if it hits. But that's why I just kept saying like a peaceful season. It's like where there's not way where it's like, oh no. Where they just, they look and they go, oh boy, oh boy, we have to salvage this. it's more of that. Oh, wow. Okay, there's a glimpse of that.

Oh, there's the glimpse of that. I was going to ask you what that looked like. So it's just a glimpse here and there in your mind? I would say in the first half of season it's a glimpse. I would say to me when I look at the young quarterbacks those last six weeks or anything after the buy. After their buy week, I don't know what it is up top my head. I could look it up in the sec.

But after their buy week, I want to see kind of consistency from Anthony Richardson. Because that's where you'll see some guys kind of take a little second leap. I want to say, you know, play for Urban Meyer. or something of that sort or play for the 2021 Bears. But you usually want to see that leap after the biweek where everything resets. You calm down. Week 11. That's perfect.

Okay. Yeah. So if it's a week 11 by from week 12 onwards, I just want to see kind of that. To me, it's not, I'm not going to put stats on it or anything like that. You can feel it. Yeah. You can feel it. You can feel it.

This is a very self-serving way of doing this, a very myopic way of doing this. But over the first half of the season, maybe we talk about a play here and there, which is like, man. look at that. And like the plan on offense makes sense. So it's a soundness with a flash every once in a while. I think that is a way to do it. But then in week 13 are we having an entire Anthony Richardson segment on you have my attention. Yeah.

Right? Like so just the thinking about it through the lens of this podcast. Yes. But I think that's the way that I think about it. So that's really, really important. It is. Like I love when you sit right there. You say you can feel it.

And that's where like even like Trevor Lawrence is rookie year. It's like you're doing these main. the little things. He's not panicking. I think that's why this, what this situation can be very good for him with a coach that understands these things and understands working with young quarterbacks. Yes, he coached Phil Bervers for a long time, but it's cool that now he's worked with Herbert, Jaywin Hertz and all this. So now he's kind of got like a spectrum of different guys to draw from. And I think that's for a guy like Anthony Richardson, that's amazing.

And also like, and this is kind of a thing that I just thought of mid-sentence, but like even having Gardner-Minschu there and then him being in that offense before too, like that's going to help. Smart. Yeah, even though Minchu is his own cat, you know, his own personality, I do think that's going to be good for kind of that helping Anthony out and doing all the things that he wants to do as a year. I think this is important to acknowledge. The last couple years, Shane Steichen has worked on a team. He wasn't even a play caller for the first half of this first year in Philly, where the offensive, there was an offensive head coach who was heavily involved in the game planning, everything else. But we have really solid evidence that he did a very good job with Justin Herbert, his rookie year, when it was his show. So typically in these situations, when you have even a play caller coming from a spot where the offensive mind and head coach was heavily involved in what the team looked like, I think, oh, man, now that there's separation there, what's it going to look like? But I think that Stuygens' background indicates it he'll probably be okay. But again, I think it's worth mentioning that Nick Siriani was a very important presence in Philly over the last couple years.

But I think a lot of their innovation, sorry to cut you up, but like a lot of the innovation, a lot of the ideas, a lot of that stuff, I think that I think the chain was proactive. And the things that they sought out. Watching that Eagle shift when he started college plays, it's funny, he did it by becoming more simple. He's very simple. And that's what we say. He's the Occam's Razor coach. Whatever the simplest answer is, that's what he's going to do. When you have a dude at quarterback, like at Anthony Richardson, and if he hits how I think he

could hit, it's like, hell yeah, because don't overthink it. Like what does this guy go bombs away and let this guy run? Like that's a very, it's the most simple offense since the dawn of time. Run the ball and bombs away. But just use a quarterback to do it, like a single wing quarterback. But I think just also just, that's why I'm so interested in him and Stuyken and just what he's done. Stichis. I always do that with his name.

But he's dealing with his offensive system. It won't be the last time, buddy. Oh my God. Because I fix it in my brain and then I don't say it. Yeah, whatever. But his background with working with Philip Rivers, then working with John, Justin Herbert, working with G. Hurts, all those offensive systems look different. You know, the nickel and dimeing with Phil Rivers, with corner throws out the Wapu.

That's why we like it. Justin Herbert going bombs away on third down. And then Jaylen Hertz going go balls and running all the design run stuff. It's, that's the design run stuff is what I'm really interested too, because quarterback coach Cam Turner was working with Kyle Murray. Yeah. And that's something, you're doing research for this. I was like, oh, what do you think about that? Yep.

So you get a little bit of that kind of influence from the QB design run game as well. So it's a really fun mix. And I like the past catchers. I'm optimistic about Alec Pierce this year. I think this system is perfect for him, his skill set because he's so vertical. And I think actually having a quarterback that can get him the ball, it'll be really, really nice. So I don't know. I'm really excited to watch the cults this year just for a lot of reasons.

But the head coach is a big reason and the quarterback is a big reason. I want to talk about some of the past catchers here in a second. But just I want to acknowledge what failure would look like or falling short would look like for Anthony Richardson. There is a world where we get halfway into the season. and he's just swimming. And this idea of he's further along the way he thought he was and some of the subtleties of the position isn't true. And again, I'm optimistic about it.

I'm bullish on it, but I think it's important to acknowledge that other timeline because there's a lot of enthusiasm in this conversation, but it's absolutely could go the other way. Oh my God. I mean, going... 13 starts. Me watching Justin Fields in college and watching him as rookie year.

I was like, what happened to the calmness? Yeah. What happened to those smooth eyes? out of Ohio State, but that's a great point. That's his biggest thing. He needs reps. He needs reps. And so that's why there might be some games or it might, there might be some ugly games.

Don't get me wrong, but that's why it's the flashes early. And like you say, it's sustained or consistent success in the second half the year. I think that's what you see. But NFL's hard and playing quarterback is really hard. You mentioned the past catchers. That's the next one for me. So can this staff turn some of the athleticism and traits that they have chased at these positions into actual production.

That hasn't really happened. So by the end of the year, I don't care who it is. But is there a world where Alec Pierce or Jalani Woods or Will Mallory or some of these guys, give me two or three. Give me two or three guys where all of this height weight speed stuff actually becomes a difference maker on offense. Can you find a couple of them? Can this offensive-centric staff pull that out of those guys?

because I think in order for this to be a success, you have to find a couple of those because they've spent real draft capital on these guys. Second round picks, second round pick, Josh Downs this year, third round pick. You know, these are all day one, or day two picks, you know, sorry, all day one of the NFL draft, which hasn't happened in, what, 14 years?

But it's, I know, it's absolutely, such a great point. Between Pittman, Pierce, Downs, I really like those three, but it's... It's a theory. It's all... I was just about to say, the idea of this. The idea of it I love. And this was last year. We have to check ourselves every time with the Colts.

It's just like I want to ring a bell. It's like the idea of the Colts is very exciting. When that was last year, I talked myself into it. I was like, oh, Matt Ryan's going to throw these seam balls. Look at all these big pass catchers. And it's like, you can't throw past 10 yards. So it didn't really matter. But that's why I'm excited is because some of these guys are best vertically and best size.

And Andy Richardson throws it down the field. We should at some point this summer, we should invest in like a couple of shot collars. And whenever we're going to talk about the Colts, we'll just put them on. and Beller can just zap us whenever we start to talk about this, as if the cults, the theoretical cults, which like pull us back a little bit. Yeah, there's got to be some scientific experiment. We can draw there. I think this also extends a little bit to the defense.

Because, again, they've made big bets on traits on defense. So Julius Bryant's, the Northwestern offensive or defensive tackle that I'm not going to try to pronounce his name right now, Adabawari. I think that's right. Tommy Adabawari. I think that's right. I was intimidated. I was looking at the top chart. I have trained myself.

So can you get a couple of those guys? Can you fight? Because that is also, if we're talking about what has held this team back a little bit, the guys they've drafted at those positions where you're supposed to really find that, that has not happened. The quiddy pays and all of the resources they've spent on past rushers, it has never come to fruition. So can you find a couple more difference makers at premium positions on defense?

Because that's been one of the things that's held them back, is they have not been able to do that over the last few years. So the defense has been solid, competent, you know, like top 12-ish unit, Borlein top 10 because they've been well coached. They've had a decent amount of pieces, but can you find a couple of guys where it's like, oh, shit, man? And they just, they haven't had enough oh, shit players. And I think that's important.

Both sides of the ball. That's kind of the thing. They have a pretty team, because they're all the high-weight speed. And then they have a lot of like flash guys. Oh, there. Oh, Quitty Pays, a great example. It's like once in a while you see it, but it's never seen. sustained. It's never consistent.

So I think that's a great point. They were really good against the run last year from just memory and everything. And I quite could against the past last year, but they lost Gilmore. You know, and now they're kind of figuring out their DB room. And I think Isaiah Rogers in the gambling thing. That's a whole another wrench thrown into it. He was probably going to start

for them. Oh, I know. They do have my guy, Rodney Thomas, the seventh round pick from Yale last year. What game was it that I brought him up? And then like that day, he like, he got beat for a touchdown or something like that. I think it was when they made the loss of the Texans or something like something happened and it was just like it was hilarious. I finally gave him a shout out and he got beat like that day if to lose the game. But they, they, I'm trying to think of a good word to like sum up the defense.

It's, I want to say it's interesting, but kind of is interesting, but it's just kind of, it does feel a little incomplete. I think this team is incomplete. Yeah. This is definitely. It's definitely that. But I think the defense was like good last year and but it's still just like, it felt like they took a step back in this off season just naturally.

Yes. And they just have a lot of question marks. answer, which is maybe not what I thought, maybe a few months ago. I was like, okay, they got the defense figured out. It's like, oh, no, they still have questions. This is a transition year. It really is. I think it's poor new knowledge.

And with that in mind, the last point I wanted to make, I think another benchmark of success for them this year, some clarity about who your building blocks are moving forward. Absolutely. Look at the biggest names on this roster and the most expensive players in this roster. Shaq Leonard has $8 million in dead money on his deal after this season. $6 million for Braden Smith, $2 million for DeForest Buckner. Jonathan Taylor, Michael Pittman, Kenny Moore, all hit for. free agency after the season.

You need to know who your guys are and what the direction of this team is going to look like. Are you going to take another semi step back this off season? Or are you going to bring these guys back because your head coach and your quarterback has created some justifiable confidence that leads to a level of aggressiveness with some of these guys? I think this is how I'll kind of leave it. What I feel good about this Colts staff and this Colts team is I'll know that they

maximize all these guys. so I'll know so much more and more about these guys than nine months. You know where it's like, I mean, you need that. We need some information. And I feel good about saying that as opposed to some of the steps. Like the Cardinals, I'm kind of like, I don't know. Like, I don't know.

Like, I don't know if they can get the most out of these guys. That's theory. But I think for this staff on both sides of the ball, it's like, if it doesn't work here, it's like, okay, maybe that's it for this guy or maybe that's it for that guy. But if they do get some plashes out, it's like, okay, I think they're going to maximize whatever they have right there. So I'll feel good if they do get stuff out of them this year. All right.

Next one, Houston Texans. What does, Houston Texans, by the way, hired Domingo Ryans as their head coach. He was the defensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers. Very good. Who, what, where, what? What in your mind is the first pillar of success for the 20203 Texas? That the ship is pointing in the right direction.

That's it. That's it being tolerable. I think is it. And this is another team that needs to find building blocks. This is the joke I've had. They've had all these middling kind of vets, you know, the high 70s Madden guys for the last few years. And now they're kind of, it seemed like they took a step into like, okay, we're actually

becoming a real team again. And so I think just being tolerable, pulling the ship in the right direction, it makes sure the quarterback's okay. I think those are the big things. I think they did a really pretty conducive offense for a rookie quarterback, and we'll talk about that in the second. So I do like that, but I think just finding building blocks on defense, finding bill of box on offense, and making sure the quarterback's okay.

I think those are the big things this year. The reasons you took this guy with the second overall pick, do those show up? I think that's where it starts. Because when you spend the second overall pick on a quarterback, that is ultimately going to determine this. And the guys that they signed, I think that them and the Panthers did a very intentional job, similar mindset, where it's just like, I want to be able to plug the holes and make sure that I'm lifting my guy. Do I have like three or four buoys attached to my rookie quarterback? I think that's what Dalton Schultz, Robert Woods, that's what guys like that are.

And they, Shaq Mason, we talked about this. the amount of kind of plug and play short-term pieces where it's like can we just get to a level where our guys are in a good spot. And now that they are in a good enough spot with the personnel, does he look like a guy that's worth the investment we've made in him? These two teams, and sorry, this is just kind of a side thought. This is a great example of the discussion we have about investing in positions. Like I'm always going to say the offensive line. You would say the pass catchers and everything. But this is a great example of how the line is a floor razor, but they need the past catchers.

eventually to put them over the top. Correct. And this is a great example of it right here. This is how they kind of chose to go. The floor is more important right now. Yes. And right now, the floor is more important. I think that's true in Carolina and Houston where it's just like, you know, Adam Thielen and DJ Chirk and Robert Woods.

And I think Nico Collins is a guy hopefully that it raises a little bit. But the other guys that they've gone after is like, okay, let's just make sure there's a level of competence here. It's so funny because even my notes right here, it's like solid pass catchers. They're all willing to do the dirty work. Like, you know, and like even Donald Schultz. That's even a mindset thing. That's a culture thing. That's an attitude thing.

John Hensi is probably the least sexy Alabama receiver of the last decade. But he's a dirty work guy. Like he's smart. He's a great, like for me, I was a little lower on him. I had like a third round grade wasn't that crazy. But, you know, hopefully he's coming back healthy this year is that he was, I was like, he's going to be a great teammate. He's going to be like a good role playing three. That's how I always kind of pictured him.

But that's, that's great. If you're building a culture, you want guys like that. Yeah. You want guys like Robert Woods. And John Metchie won a lot of games. Rubber Woods won a lot of games. And then even get a guy like Noah Brown as a role player who is a dirty work guy. Ultimate dirty work guy.

And then, yeah, like you said, Nico Collins is a great wildcard. It's like, hey, you know, he's got some traits. That's what it is. It's like, fuck it. Let's see what happens. We become so, like, what if Strau just loves him and starts peppering on the back door? Back shoulder in all that. Slow down.

We got fan, we got dynasty like investments that I'm trying to make here. So you take it easy. Pump the brakes on the Nico Collins talk. But it's like you just. don't know. I also think that with Bobby Seloic, their offense coordinator, from all accounts, seems like a smart guy. But we got it. I mean, that's, it's still a question, man. And that, that is a part of success. It is. And what I do like is that what I do like about Stroud coming out was he kind of, he didn't have some of the overwhelming traits, but he did everything well. And I think

that's actually kind of perfect for this type of offense that you want to do everything well. You want to throw on the move, like all the play action bootloads. I'm sure they'll do this. year. He's good throwing and he's accurate throwing on those. Ohio State used him a lot on sprint outs, as opposed to bootlegs. They were 87% shotguns, something like that. It's a very different sort of offense. A lot of play action, but a different sort of play action. Way different play action. No quick hitter play action. It was all kind of down the field stuff. But that is what I like about Strauss, he did everything well and he was accurate. And I think that's kind of perfect for what they would want him to do. And I think there's not going to be

a lot of crazy translation, maybe some more under center stuff. But like, he did that a little bit. You know, just a little bit, like, he was able to actually do it. They were talking about this week. I mean, I was reading Ryan's his quote about, like, the transition to more under center. It's like, he did it. Like, this is not reinventing the wheel. Like, he's comfortable doing it. Even if the numbers are a little bit extreme for what that offense looks like at Ohio State,

he has the muscle memory. He has the comfort level with actually physically doing it. You can see sometimes when a college team that's heavy gun like they were, when they go under center, you see the quarterback's footwork and it's just like, oh, boy, you guys. You're just getting through this rap. It's called Joe Burrow over the last, like, three. four years. It's just like, fuck this. I have no interest in doing this. Never going back to under center. Or like Kyler being in the air rate forever. Or Baker even.

Baker took a while to get his footwork back once he got to the pros. But I think that's what's nice about Stroud was that like it was like, okay, you got some polished there. You're okay. That's why I didn't have maybe some concerns sometimes with other shotgun heavy guys. Question about Wosolk is similar one that I had about Petting. It's like, are you one of those guys? Are you one of those guys that rising tide lifts all boats on offense? Are you going to get the most other players that you have? These aren't stars. They're not. elite players of the past catching spots specifically, but can this be a average offense with the guys that they have?

And I think that that would be a success. If you finish the season and your 16th an offensive EPA with a rookie quarterback, that's enough. Again, do you create a hospitable offensive environment as a first-time play caller? And that is going to be one of the biggest things that I'm watching. Absolutely. So you mentioned METI.

I think another one is eventually the picks got to turn into players. Yeah. Yeah, you got a million picks. Yes. So do those turn into players? Stingley, Kenyon Green, Petrie, the guys that you drafted this year, Will Anderson, obviously, what you invested in him. But the underlying kind of foundation of what this team is supposed to be after you made that trade for the trading way to Sean Watson, do those eventually become building blocks and guys that you can rely on? Eventually, that has to happen.

It's a hard needle to thread to build a contending team without it happening. The Miami Dolphins are a very good example. but this is the best path to being relevant is those guys developing into players that were worth investing in. Yeah, their defense even just looking at it. It's such a, it's a hodgepodge. I'm kind of interested in it, though. The DB room is super interesting. Even like Shack Griffin for $3 million as like a post-hype signing where he's just like available for nothing.

It's like that guy's played. He was worth $15 million a year two years ago. I like the phrase post-hype signing. I like that. That's what that, especially at corner. The contract after the contract. That's especially a corner. I think those guys are usually worth investing in where it's like it's three million.

Who cares? And we've seen him play at a relatively high level. Yes. Or worth investing in. Yeah, I know. But even like Jimmy Ward, Petrie, Tavier, Thomas, like all three have slot versatility. And then like they're all good blitzers and tacklers. How they end up shaping the secondary in which position guys play is one of the thoughts

I had when I was looking at the depth chart. I was like, I wonder what they do. Yeah. I think they blitz a little bit more. And I think because they're good at it. But yeah, it's going to be a little funky defense. And then I think the front seven, you know, Will Henderson, and we'll have some work cut out from him where he's going to be,

it's not going to be Nick Boso. But they've got some guys. You know, like Jerry Hughes is a competent player. Malik Collins is solid. Like they've got some guys in that group. So for me, beyond the success of the defense or the quality of the defense, does the Texan's defense look like a D'Amico Ryan's defense, right? So we've seen this in New York with Robert Salas group and they played very well last season.

I think they do have a similar mindset to the one that we saw with. the Niners. But we haven't seen Damico Ryan's away from Chris Kusurik and what that defensive line is coached like and what that environment feels like. So are we watching the Niners, the Texans this year? And even if they don't have the horses, are we still talking about them like, man, they fucking play hard? Like that, that to me is important.

Is it a mindset? Is it a feel thing where this, the Demiko Ryan's element of this and the Niners-esque element of this seeps out of this defense when you watch it? And I think, especially last year, it was really close. cool. Starting with the 2021 playoffs and then last year and seeing Domeco Ryan's crank it up a little bit with the heat and the blitzing and stuff and also just how exotic, how exotic those blitzes were, especially in the playoffs. That's what I'm interested to see. Like I think that's what that's the usual difference. Okay, we can't just sit in quarters and cover three and just, you know, have Fred Warner take

away three routes and they have to check it down. I think he understands that though. So I think the the mix of the play calling is going to be a little different, even if it's the same types of coverages and types of looks. I just think the mix-up of the calls is going to be way different. I think it'll be simpler. I think that's also part of it. I think that you're talking- Similar looks, but different, like different math of how much is it called of each one.

Remember that play we talked about when they played the Seahawks last year where Fred Warner ended up being in the flat and cover two? Yeah. That's not happening this year. And I talked to him at the Combine about just like what Fred Warner does for you there and the flexibility it gives you because of just his encyclopedic knowledge of this. This is year one, right? And so it's important that.

And then hopefully Jimmy Ward can be. The parroman is not doing Fred Waters. So I think that the defense will be simpler compared to what the Niners could be at certain times. But again, it's like, do they play the way that we want to see them play? And I think that's very important. I'm really excited to see Stingley, though. Like this defense is way more conducive than a Lubby Smith cover two defense. And using a guy that I think could be a lockdown man in outside corner.

So I'm really excited to see Derek Stingley Probably more than anyone on this entire team Even more than Stroud watching Stingley this year I think it's gonna be really fun These are like the first couple numbers we've put on anything This team finished 19th in EPA play on defense last year Can it be 12th this year? And like that's to me that's success

If you're like a top 12 defense with this group Like it's solid all around You play the way we're talking about Can you be a top 12 defense That's a number I'll put on it Win total like can they be like a 500 team Yeah I don't think you need to be that Because again it's more about the feel of it

But the first time I'm going to throw like a number of wins out there based on the, again, the amount of resources they've spent on players and the amount of draft picks. Like, can you be a consistently competitive team? I think, I think everyone, the projections for everything is that, oh, the Cardinals are going to own the number one and the number two pick is don't have the number two pick. Yes. Yes. I think that's your pick is past pick 10 is in the teens.

And I think that is a win. So that would be around a 500 record. It is somewhere around there. So I think that is a huge goal for them. The last one for me, can you, create some excitement. This is different than a lot of the other teams because there's been some excitement with the other teams.

The Cardinals were a playoff team a couple of years ago. The Colts were a team that was picked to win their division last season. The Texans have been in a coffin for the last two years. They have been a complete afterthought with the league, their fans to a certain extent. Can we get to a place where you and I are excited to talk about this team, where there is some semblance. of enthusiasm from the broader football watching public about the Houston Texans. That is a necessary component of this for me.

Make me nerd out. Like make me, like you said with Anthony Richardson, it's like, oh, you have my attention or something like that. It's just like week eight, week seven, week 12, we're going, oh, man, look at what they're doing on the defense right there. I want to like watching it. I know. That's it.

That's it. I want to like watching it. Yes, exactly. I want to watch you guys again. I think that's a personal goal through our lens. All right. Next one, Denver Broncos. I think this is a little different than the other ones that we've talked about so far.

What is the first pillar of success for the, what does success look like in your mind? Where does it start for the 20-23 Broncos? Okay, they're one that will put like a wind tool or a gold total. I think that is fair. Yes. So they are making the playoffs, I think is first and foremost, and then I say salvaging Russ. Those are. So that, this is, this is very, very funny.

Okay. I have two questions at the end of my notes. One is, do you think Russ needs to look good for the season to be? be considered a success. The other one is, this is the first one where I think you put a win total on it. What is that win total? Those are my two questions that I had for you. And that's how I feel.

I say double-digit wins in the AFC, I think it was a huge win. Or a huge goal for the year to maybe to attain. But for salvaging Russ, I think it's cannot be understated. Like, Russ wasn't just like bad, like bad for like his standards. He was just bad. Like, I mean, bad bad. Like it's statistically. vibes-wise, just watching it.

There's so many errors with that offense. So I think just even getting him to back in that 12 to 14, like, EPA for dropback range would be incredible. And I think this team can do that, or Sean Payton could do that. But I think that is the number one goal. It's like, okay, we don't have to hit the nuke button on your contract and figure out what the hell we're doing with you. It's like, no, okay, we can get by. But get by with this. And I'm pretty optimistic about it, but I think that's a huge, huge goal for this team.

It's interesting because we had a lot of conversations about this heading into the coaching search about do you need to fix Russ to save your job as a coach? Them hiring Sean Payton to me as an indication that the answer is no, but I still think they need to fix him for this season to be a success. Because there's just so few avenues out of this. So the team that you have built and the amount of money that you've spent on it, I think that's a very important thing to mention with this. We talked about it with the trying to win the Super Bowl show. There's six in the cash spending. They spent more guaranteed money on free agents than any other team in the league. They're trying to win right now.

So to be the team you want to be, I think you do need to fix Russell Wilson over the next couple years. And that might be the 12th best quarterback in the league. Maybe that's enough. Yes. And that's okay. And I think that's why I thought the champagne signing was hiring was so interesting, was that they got the one guy that can outrank us. That was available.

Guarantee you it wasn't an accident. No, it was not. It was definitely not. It was how can we restore the balance of our organization? How can we redo the organizational flow chart of the Broncos team, Broncos organization? So I think that's where it's like if it's 12 and we salvage them, okay, that's great.

I think for Sean Payton's like, okay, if I don't, guess what? Guess who holds all the resources and has all the final say? So I think for Sean Payton, he has maybe a different. He'll have job security if he doesn't, but it's not a success. No. Because I think that they have so few. avenues to another quarterback financially. Hopefully they're going to be a competent team.

It just, I think Sean Payton will keep his job for four or five years, even if Russ fails, but it's not success. And I think also Sean Payton is a guy that is very confident what he does. You don't say. I think that is not a stretch to say that. And so don't you think he'll love to have the feather in the cap of what I did? I think he really would. Yeah.

So, I mean, this is the guy that, you know, it was like, I'm going to make Haysom Hill and NFL quarterback. Like, watch this shit. And I'm going to give him a big contract. Yeah. Let's see what we're doing over here in New Orleans. It's like, okay, it didn't really work out. But I think this would be a big, big feather in the cap for him that he would like.

I mean, last year, Russ was 27th in the knee paper dropback out of 33 quarterbacks. He's in between Matt Ryan and Mack Jones. Like, like, it wasn't a great year. It's a disaster. It was a disaster. I mean, there's no way right. It's a fucking disaster. I think his success rate, yeah, success rate was lower in Justin Fields and passing the ball.

If, like, it was the same as, his passing success rate last year was the same as Zach So if you want to just go, I did it for the last decade. I think I looked at the numbers for passing success rate and it was like a bottom 20 number for any quarterback, not just first year guys. So again, just getting back to averageish, which it would be 45% success rate or 0.0% EPA for dropback. That is like, to me that's a win. And of course, if they have some T success with it, I think that's been amazing as well.

Another big marker of success for me is does this look like a team that's coached by Sean Payton? and that is a counterbalance to what it looked like last year, where it was just an absolute circus all the time. And it's a very simple question. Are you serious people? Is this a serious operation? Because that's why you bring in a guy like Sean Peyton.

How often have we talked about what a Sean Peyton offense looks like? The attention to detail and just how tight it feels. I mean, the story is I've talked about this many times talking to guys in that New Orleans locker room about just how maniacal he is, about every little tiny thing. And then again, compare that to what that offense looked like last year where they can't even line up and they can't even function. So that change and that shift to me is the most important thing, maybe outside of the Russell Wilson part. But also that confidence that you talked about, right? Like the aggressiveness.

Sean Payton hasn't been the most aggressive coach in the league with like four downs, things like that. But he typically isn't like the top 10 to 12. And so do you have an assertiveness about you? Do you have a confidence about the way that you operate your offense, even independent of what the quarterback looks like? I think that's very important because that's why they went out and got this guy. That's exactly it. That's why you're paying him this much money. Yeah, also true.

They tried their first job pick for him, but they're also like cash is real. Yeah, I just want to. Maybe not to the Waltons, but the cash is real in some worlds. Like, but even that's what you're saying, attention to detail. This is like, it was not outside of just the LOL, like, oh my God. I can't believe they kicked that field goal, all that stuff that hack it and the Broncos were doing last year. That's the thing with the Saints was just that, especially on offense. It's just, it's ridiculous.

There would be no penalty. Drew Brees helps a lot. Yes. Having that, but it is that attention to detail. That's all I've heard about guys that have been interned with the New Orleans Saints or worked around. The guys they draft all have to be smart. I mean, just like everything about it. Everything aspect of who they are.

Alvin Camara is that he is a genius, football genius. And that's why teams loved him. And Sean Payton was probably like, oh, I got to. If my running back is this smart, I got to get this guy. Mark Ingram was smart. I mean, all these guys that they've had, all the offense alignment and everything. But going from, honestly, last year, the Broncos for most of the years, like, they're leading the NFL in the false starts, delay of games, just the stupidest penalties that are truly like,

oh, you guys are not practicing well. Like, you could just, those are types of things. It means all the cadence is rock. This is going to be the complete opposite of that. This thing is going to be detailed down to a team, down to a half a yard every single route, which is needed because this is a team that. that needs it's not discipline it's not just yelling at him it's being a professional pride yeah it's just like do you have pride in like doing your job to a certain level

oh my god i would just remember times where people be like oh why don't they run them after do false starts it's like because it's not fucking high school so you got like this is these guys let's all be professionals here yeah yeah one other thing for me you need production out of these free agents yes the amount of money that they threw around you can't be the 17th best offensive line in the league when you've spent what you just did on the Glecheon Powers. You have to get plus play out of those guys. And like, Zach Allen has to be a good player for you. Yep.

Like at a certain point, you need to make good on the investments that you had in some of these guys. So that free agent class that they just were shelling out money for, you need to get something out of that for this to be a success. Absolutely. That's absolutely. They need those guys to step up, just like you said, good players or even guys that they signed in the past, like Rainey Gregory. Yeah. They need the difference makers out there. So you mentioned Randy Gregory, I wanted to ask you, what do you think the defense has to look like for this to be considered a success? Because this is one, the best defenses in the league last year. They have a lot of pieces on that defense still. And I think Vance Joseph is a good defensive coach. The defense will structurally look a lot different than it did last year. But what do you think they have to hit benchmark-wise for this to be successful?

For sure, top 10 defense. Okay. I think that's, I don't think that's unfair. That's what I was wondering if you were going to go that high. Yeah, I would say top 10. And I think they have just the pieces, all three levels. Linebackers, maybe not. But like all three levels, they have good players. And I think the Vance Joseph won't be as, it's hard to be as Blitz happy as he was last year with the Cardinals. And I think that was a necessity because of the Cardinals's talent deficiency. But what I know Vance Joseph from is the third and fourth down blitzes.

Like that's how I remembered him when I've had to be the quality control coach and input his stuff, was that he always has that. I think he'll tone it down a little bit. and we're going to talk about the guy he's replacing on the defense there in a second. But I think he'll tone down some of that, but you'll see some of those blitzes. I think he's just going to let the horses go. I think they have enough of Baron Browning. You have other guys up there.

DJ Jones is more of a plugger and everything. But they have some good pieces. They went got Frank Clark. So they have some interesting pieces up front, so they won't have the blitz as much as maybe Vance Joseph did in the past. But I think this is a top 10 unit, and I don't have to squint too much to see it. Put a bow on those two questions.

I was going to ask you to Russell and the win total. wrapping this up, success for the Broncos, salvage Russ, have him be a competent of a quarterback again and make the playoffs. So 11 wins.

Yep. Double-digit wins. And, yep, Russ is in the top half of the league when I look back at success rate in EPA. Last one here, Carolina Panthers. They hired Frank Reich to be their head coach

replacing, I guess Steve Wilkes, really. I was going to say Matt Roe, but it's been so long since Matt Role was the defense. Frank Reich was the head coach of the Indianapolis

Scultz, just again, just kind of refreshing everything here. So this one, again, I think that the expectations are a little bit higher. So what does success, where does it start for you with the 2023 Panthers? Make sure Bryce Young has a silky smooth season. That is the, I'm just going to keep using that phrase. Why I'm saying smooth is that I don't want like a four-week stretch where I'm like, oh,

with any of these young guys, I'm like, oh, no, oh, no, this might not end well. That's a good way to think about it. Just like multiple week stretches where it's like, I'm genuinely concerned. Yeah, there's a month where, yeah, four weeks where I'm not seeing flashes or I'm not seeing the calm eyes or anything. Bryce Young does have calm eyes. But if I'm not seeing that, that's where I'm a little scary. So that's why I keep using the phrase calm season or silky smooth or clean, whatever. But same thing with Bryce Young. And I think, do, never do I hover over the panic button. Is there a marker of success? I do not take off the glass. Like, yeah,

to punch that button. And I think team wise, I think this is, I think the playoffs is a goal for them. I really do. And open NFC, the rest of the roster, yes, they have a rookie quarterback, but this is a good roster. I really do think that. outside maybe some of the past catchers isn't like overwhelming but it's fine similar conversation when we have about the texas yeah yep they're fine and i think there's a very good offensive line and i think the defense's got some interesting pieces so i think the playoffs is an outstanding goal for them and i think that's very doable in this energy so i want to end with the playoffs and kind of talk about what's going to get us there and so i think that bryce young is where

this starts because this isn't the c j strout thing the texans got c j stry strout with the second overall pick they had the second overall pick i think we need to talk about the actual terms of the Panthers trade for Bryce Young. Okay? So they traded the ninth pick, a top 10 pick in terms of overall value when you look at the multiple second round picks that they traded and their 2024 first round pick. Let's call it the 16th pick.

A 16th pick and DJ Moore to go get this guy. If he doesn't look like the guy at some point during your rookie season, this is a failure. Yeah. That's all it. Yes. It's not any more complicated than that. So him being the same. guy that so much about Bryce Young's appeal, I think, is this, I am a superstar field.

The way that he sees the game, the feel he gives your offense, does that come through? Do we sense that at some points this season? Because I think for this to be successful, you have to. Oh, absolutely. It has to be the phrase I always came back to. It's not like a scientific phrase about Bryce Young is that he's a baller. Yes. Sometimes.

It's that meme of the guy looking out the side that people have done this. Like he got that dog at him. It's just like that sometimes all football is. It's what it is. It was so hard to describe him sometimes because and I compare him to Flutie and it's like that wasn't really a joke because that's how you describe Flutty too. Fulty was just a football player. He was just a baller.

Sometimes I want to be that guy looking at the bright side of the street just thinking that's it. He got that dog on him and that's it. That's the end of football analysis for the day. I wish. And too many times I'm like, yeah, but they had a half man slide in. I'm just, oh God. We cannot enjoy anything.

Yeah, I can't. I know. Again, I'm very miserable. to watch football with. I just sit there and silence and write notes into my phone. Like, I'm not very fond. But anyways, but yeah, it's just the same conversation with Anthony Richardson. Same conversation about CJ Stroud.

It's different for me. Because there's more investment in it. Yeah. No, I get that. But I'm saying more that I have to see, I don't, I just say that like, I don't want see that four-week stretch. I almost don't know what you want to see a two-week stretch of it. I think it's because it's a little scary.

Can be similar, but the urgency is different for me with Bryce Young because of what they gave up to go get him. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a scale. Like, Texans might be, like, because Colts were feeling like they were like a pretty good team the last few years. So it's kind of like a different scale or all these guys, the urgency, I think is a good way to put it. Yeah, but it's especially, you know, it's in the start at the top. The owner's going to probably crank a lot of pressure.

And the owner loves Bryce Young. And I bet you who will get the blame if Bryce Young doesn't look the part. It won't be Bryce. It won't be Bryce. It will be the coaches. Outside of Bryce Young, I want to talk about Frank Greck a little bit. And if we're, again, spinning this optimistically, I see so many similarities between Frank Reich this year and Doug Peterson last year. Yeah. Okay.

So it was a guy who was considered a plus play caller and a leader of an offense that really just kind of lost his way. And I think there are even similarities within that if you're pulling back the layers. Doug Peterson loses Frank Reich to be the coach of the Colts. And the voices in that building just get muddled. You know, think about all the guys that they brought in. There were like 10 people in those offensive meetings at one point. It was Rich Scangarello and just all those different assistants that they had. Press Taylor was involved in those conversations.

And I think the message got muddled and they just, again, lost their way a little bit. And that's how the Colts felt last year. Where there's so many, and you lose Nixiriani. So Nixiriani leaves. They really never had a voice kind of elevate to replace him as far as the construction of the offense went. And I think they lost their way just because of the quarterback shuffling that happened, where it's just we have lost the thread here. And that's what it felt like last season.

But Doug Peterson, even if it felt like that near the end of his Philly tenure, that offense last year in Jacksonville knew itself. Oh, yeah. And I want to feel that about this year's Panthers. I just wanted to feel like an offense that knows itself, a play caller that knows himself. And all the amount of the money they've spent on assistance, they go out and get Thomas Brown to be their offensive coordinator. They get Josh McCown.

It's an all-star staff. Yeah. Does it feel like that? And I have questions because these guys, these are guys from different disparate backgrounds. It's crazy. And so can we get to a place where it feels like they're kind of on the same page? It's a line coach. It's got a first time quarterback coach and Luke McCown.

It's, or Josh McCown. Josh, yes. Josh Mcown, sorry, McCown brothers. It's funny, actually, Luke McCown and I just had a Twitter interaction about the Hank pass concept, Pearl Flats. That's a Sean Payne. That's on every offense statement. Luke McCown's awesome. I've talked to Luke McCown multiple different times of stories about Sean Pate.

Luke McCown's an awesome guy. We went back and forth about Hank, but yes, the McCallon brothers. I like both of them. I know Josh a little bit from his time with the Bears when he came in. But it's also when he,

second reference to the Nate Taylor game, or Nate Pool game. I'm sorry. In 2003, Nate Taylor covers the Chiefs. But anyways, but I think the, with his staff,

it's this, yeah, they have to get on the same page. I like the offensive line coach. They're retaining him. Like, James Campin. He's been around forever.

Yeah, he's, I know it's for his name. He used to be. He was in green, forever. Yeah, he's... Packers forever.

And then, but also just, okay, so offensive line having continuity is huge because I think not just the offensive line coach, but the entire offensive line. Thomas Brown comes from Rams and comes from the McVeetree. Reich is not from that tree at all.

So we have different ideas there. Macau's kind of bounced around everywhere, been a player coach essentially. So it's a lot of minds that I respect, but you never know. You never know. Whether it is a cohesive vision, I think, is very important.

Yes. I think that is an important consideration. Getting to the defense, this is funny. I think for this year to be considered a success, the defense probably needs to be like a top 10 or 12 unit because of what you're paying a Joe Ebro, what he looked like last year. But I don't think his success as a defensive coordinator is that important to the long-term success of the Panthers because I don't think he's going to be there for very long.

Does that make sense? So for this season to be considered a success, I think they have to be really, really good on defense. But Jiro Evereo is part of the overall tapestry of who the Panthers are isn't that important to me. If they have a top eight defense. He's gone. He's gone. He started interviewing last year.

And the only reason he probably isn't a head coach is because the stink on that Broncos team from last year. Yes. And also, like, probably he looked at, I mean, there's only five changes last year. That's true. And I'm sure he's getting paid a shitload of money. Oh, I'm sure. Good for him. I'm sure it all worked all just fine for him.

but now he's on the owner's page, or owner's radar. So now because he started doing the interview circuit and all that. So, yeah, I like that. You're not building around Evereaux, even though he is a fantastic coach. But I am really, I'm very optimistic about this defense. They have very good players at elite positions.

Yeah, right? Like Brian Burns is a very good player. Even if we're keeping those guys out of like the elite tier, Brian Burns is a very good player. J.C. Horn has a chance to be a very good player. The safeties that they have, like Xavier Woods, Von Bell, connection is just like exactly what you want as like veteran safety is where it's like

that guy I just need a level of play. And that's what Von Bell has been for the Bengals for the last couple of years. Jack Thompson is a good player. Like they have Frankie Louvo was an interesting player. They've just got quality but also intrigue. I think in a lot of these spots. I mean, sometimes I say this is a joke as people, name recognition means a player is good. Like, oh, I recognize that name.

That means he's good. Like just look at early draft boards for the future, the next year's draft class. It's just a lot of big school guys because people recognize the names. But this defense is like, oh, I know that guy. And I mean it's in a good way. It's more like, oh, that's a good starter. Oh, that guy's great. Like, Derek Brown is.

Yeah, Derek Brown, we didn't even mention. Yes. They signed shy tongue. Ascending, I think, is the way to describe Derek Brown. He really came along last year. But then, I mean, just on this defense, because they're schematically, he, no one ran more creeper pressure, simulated pressures than the Broncos last year with Everrell.

I'll just explain real quick. I had someone to ask me what simulated pressure was. So similar pressures, do you run? rush four, but it looks like a blitz. You're sending a linebacker or a DB, so it looks like a blitz, but then dropping someone from the last scrimmage. So instead of bringing five, you're bringing four. It's not technically a blitz because a blitz as it's defined by a lot of the metrics that we look at is five or more rushes. That is why it's simulating the pressure. You're simulating the blitz and making guys go off the rules. But the Broncos did it more than anyone and probably

better than anyone last year. And they got some guys that I think are going to be good blitzers. Like Frankie Louvre was a great one. Shaq Thompson at being athletic, Jeremy Chin. Nebulous, types. It just like, it lends well to that style of play. And Brian Burns is a really good run player as well. So it, the defense is going to be,

I'm, I'm high on them. And I, like, honestly, if they're not a top eight defense or top seven defense, I would be disappointed. I think that's where I'm at.

I have high expectations for them. So now is we reverse engineer. If they're a top eight defense and Bryce Young feels like that guy and there's a level of competence and cohesion on offense, that brings you to 10 wins. Yeah. And so that, those factors, I think, lead to being a borderline playoff team.

For me, the way that I kind of articulated it was in week 14, are you in the conversation to win the NFC South? Yeah. Like, that to me is, that's what it needs to be. I don't think they need to win 10 games for it to be a success, but I think that's the general range that we're talking about here. I like that. And yeah, probably will be.

Yeah, probably a lot of 9 and 8, 9, 10, and 7 of that division. So, yeah, no, I think that's exactly it. I think winning the NFC South is a great goal for them. And honestly, I think 10 wins. gets you into the playoffs. I think so too. I mean, or the FC in general.

I don't think they have to make the playoffs for them to be a success, but I think pushing for a wild card spot and being in that range, I think that is where they should be looking for. Exactly. I want to see them in the hunt. Like when they do the playoff picture in the hunt, I want to see the Panthers there

or they're the one of the last teams in it. And I think that's a good goal for them. I think that when the Bears made that trade with Carolina, a lot of Bears fans were like, oh man, they could be one of the worst teams in the league next year. That's not happening. No. Like, they have too much talent.

And again, what we just talked about. Like, even failure, I still think that there's going to be a level of competence with this group where they're going to be a seven win team. It's not going to work in the Broncos last year. No. That's that's it. There's a lot of respected guys on the staff and all on both sides of the ball. Guys meaning coaches and a lot of good players. And it's usually it's like even if there is some communication stuff, maybe early in the year, we're just, that's just throwing that out there by the way.

We have no idea. They might be getting along great. They might. Everything's amazing. There might be. Again, there's a lot of new voices. Yeah, new voices. But it's, I think just because of that, I'm betting on them being very, very confident.

And they have enough players where it's like, it's not just the coaches getting out of them. I think they'll maximize them, but those players will take advantage of it. All right. That's all we got. That's all we got. That was a fun conversation. I think it's a really good way to consider these teams at this point in the calendar as we kind of project forward.

You and I will be back a little bit later this week. We're going to talk about some of the ways that really good teams are constructed, which is a kind of an extension of a mailback question we got from a listener that I really, really liked so excited to dig in. Thanks for the content listeners. Appreciate that, guys. We'll appreciate you guys. Let me dig into that on Friday show.

No Thursday show this week. Sando is on vacation. We are in the same place talking about this year's podcast. So we're doing our podcast meetings this week. So we're not going to have a Thursday show with the football GM off. But we will be back on Friday. Before we wrap this thing up, though, it is time to talk to Jordan about the play callers. Very excited for you guys to hear just.

everything she has to say about this project, what it looks like, because I think it's going to be absolutely fantastic. So here's Jordan. And I am thrilled now to welcome our Rams writer at the athletic and the person at the helm of our next fantastic narrative series here at the athletic and on the athletic football show feed. It's Jordan Roderick. Jordan, how are you? I'm good. I'm exhausted, but in a good way, creatively exhausted. I'm feeling great, Robert. Thanks for having me on. Very excited to talk about this. We mentioned it at the top of the show, but just a reminder to everyone. The Play Callers is the name of our new narrative series.

It will be on the Athletic Football Show Feed all five episodes dropping on July 10th. That will be the only thing, Monday, July 10th. That will be the only thing coming your way on the Athletic Football Show feed during that week. We wanted to give this all the room and the space that it deserved. And this is a story that you and I have talked about many times over the last several years. And I think in some ways, one of the defining stories of the NFL over the last half decade, the last decade. And you know, you've gotten a chance to talk to a lot of the most important personalities associated with that story and its history. So I want you just lay out very plainly for

me what the series is and notably why you wanted to tackle it in this way. Yeah, big question. Great question. Well, if I were going to describe it in one sentence to people who didn't really know about the NFL, which I know are not your listeners, your listeners, your listeners are awesome and obsessed about football just like the rest of us. But this is how football works is how I would describe it to somebody. And it's a story about the youngest NFL coaching family, the Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh tree, as we so often refer to it. It's about all of the personalities within that coaching tree, particularly the four coaches who are sort of the main characters of the story, who started out together, some of them first in Houston and then in Washington back in the early

2010s, Kyle Shanahan, Matt LaFleur, Sean McVeigh, and of course Mike McDaniel. And of course, Mike Daniel. I wanted to just ask right there. Why do you think those four are the central characters in this? Those four were, they have their fingerprints all over the evolution of what the Mike Shanahan, Alex Gibbs, outside zone West Coast system was back when they ran it together in Denver. So we do pay homage to that history. But when Kyle Shanahan starts to really dig into that playbook and match it with a lot of the concepts that he was seeing and logging as a quality control assistant in Camp Bay, where he literally had access to at that time the planet's largest playbook at that time in history and how he had people around him, the assistance he had working with him, working for him in a lot of cases, and the environment that they created amongst themselves,

really a lot of functional conflict, a lot of dysfunctional days that led to really bright ideas and a lot of innovation. And so those four being head coaches, of course, are the main characters of this story, because of what imprints and what fingerprints they were able to leave in their various ways on this system, but also because they're all tied together by age. They're all tied together by their belief in how football works, and more importantly, the why of football. And they're kind of living that out loud. And I've said this to all of them, you know, they're kind of growing up right in front of us, right? These are things where, no, I think, you know, we're always going to make sure that we have, we pay respect to other great minds.

in this space, Bill Belichick, Andy Reid, and these guys do pay a ton of respect to those coaches. But unlike maybe another generation of coach, we're seeing these young coaches quite literally evolve, change, grow, clash with each other, clash with their system with other systems, crash against things, self-destruct in some cases, and they pick themselves back up. We're seeing it in public. And the way that they do those things also has deeply informed the way that their offenses have created their own identities as they've all split away from each other. So it's, it's been a really, really fascinating process. The story is not just about football. We're doing deep schematic dives,

obviously, and really cool because you're going to hear coaches, these coaches talk about football in a way that you don't get to hear them talk about football when they're standing at a podium or in a press conference. But it's also the human element. There's a human toll for this. There's a human toll and the players pay that toll. The coaches themselves pay that toll. And all of these, places, all of these ecosystems and then these offensive systems and then the defensive systems that they clash with, everything is alive and it all reacts and interacts with each other. And football is shaped and formed and football itself becomes a living, breathing thing. So I want you just to very broadly kind of sketch out what people can expect over the five

episodes. You know, you don't have to dig too far into them. But just the subject matter that we'll be looking at in those individual episodes, so people get an idea. And I want to be very clear about this. This is not just a podcast about these people. You are hearing from these people. You talk to every single one of the principal people involved in this. They're telling their story. So this is not something from the outside looking in. This is the inside story straight from the people who lived it. And really, again, telling the story about the league in so many ways over the last five, ten, twenty years. Yeah, it starts with a really, really cool historical element because every tree ring has a start essentially. And really what we're looking at is,

a huge series of tree rings. The NFL repeats itself constantly. It was that famous, you know, history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. And we're looking at that. So you basically, you parachute into a point in history. That's a catalytic moment. And there's a catalytic moment where, you know, Mike Shanahan decides to sort of marry his, his West Coast passing concepts and the very meticulous attention to details, you know, ethos that he has. And he decides to marry that with Alex Gibbs outside zone. And by the way, watching him do this is his son, Kyle Shanahan, who is basically growing up with this in his very DNA in his cells, right? That this understanding of what this is supposed to look like when it works. And also something interesting in this first

episode is Kyle also starts to develop an understanding of what happens when it doesn't work. And I think the pain of that type of scenario and that type of, of watching his dad go live that and go through some of that really starts to inform him. Again, this is a narrative documentary style. These are people who I was really fortunate. These coaches really opened up about not just the way they see the game and what they think about the game and their relationship to football, but also themselves and their journeys and their personal ebbs and flows and highs and lows.

So when we go back historically in episode one, we sort of take this arc, this timeline of, okay, so Kyle Shanahan then starts coaching. His dad won't hire him because he didn't think he knew his shit yet. So he continues on to Houston. You know, his timeline intersects with that of Matt LaFleur, of Robert Sala, who also I spoke with with this interview. He's got maybe one of the anecdotes of the entire series. So I can't wait for Jets fans to hear that.

And then he intersects with Mike McDaniel. And then their timelines sort of start to, they start to build this thing, right? They start to take this element of his dad's playbook, of the Tampa Bay playbook at that time, and they start to borrow and they start to mold in shape. And then they start to add things that they don't understand why this X, Y, or Z is missing from this other playbook. So why don't we just put it in? Because these are all people who never asked why they shouldn't do something. They always ask how they could do something.

And that starts to really emerge. And then the second episode, and then we go into their time when they all collide with each other, sometimes quite literally in Washington, you know, they build the system with Robert Griffin the third. They sort of have this very dysfunctional but extremely dynamic and like very biological relationship in terms of the way that they're fighting with each other every day. But ideas are coming out of that and shaping and forming and they go they go in depth on it. And it's, I mean, it is, I don't know if I could handle an environment like that, but. But, you know, again, this is why these people are where they are, right? And so then, you know, into the second and the second and third episodes, the system that they create starts to spread. The coaches themselves start to put their own spin on things. You know, Kyle and Matt LaFleur in Atlanta, Matt LaFleur's experience really for the first time working directly with a veteran quarterback and what that was like. And the lessons he took from that that he then applied in Green Bay, he goes really in depth on those types of things. Obviously, the rise and then.

And the meteoric and incredible rise of that falcons offense and then the complete mortifying crash of what the meme we know and we will always know and remember that incredible offense, that's what we'll remember that team for. And then, you know, into Sean McVeigh's hiring and sort of rise with the Rams. And then his own crash when he meets a brick wall in Bill Belichick in the Super Bowl. And then that starts to really shape every, just like his own loss and, you know, with the Falcons. did for Kyle, that starts to really shape everything that Sean McVeigh does, every action he takes, every step. And he tries to seek out after he falls to, you know, Bill Belichick, who installs Vic Fangio's defense essentially and borrows, you know, obviously from Matt Patricia and a little bit from Philly. But it's really credited to Vic Fangio. Sean McFae start seeking out

that poison. He wants to ingest it drop by drop so he builds up a tolerance to it, right? And it's this obsessive process and this really kind of dark process of I'd like to fight with somebody every day because that will make me better. And so we sort of start to explore that dynamic and how the rise of these defensive concepts and then also Robert Sala's own spin that he's put on those things sort of have started to. And that's Brandon Staley's hiring. Brandon Staley's hiring. And then also in San Francisco, you know, Robert Sala and Kyle Shanahan are fighting every day too. And I say that in a functional way because then they start to develop the wide nine and some of those quarters concepts that Robert Solid didn't play back when he was running, you know, Seattle's cover three.

And so it's just, it's about how football is formed, how it shapes, how systems clash against one another. And then also there's been a cost on some of these players. We know the cost on the toll that it took on Robert Griffin the third. We know the toll that it took on on Jared Goff. We know the toll that it's taken on some of the quarterbacks in San Francisco. We know that the relationship, you know, between Matt LaFleure and Aaron Rogers, we see how that, you know, they had to compromise. We see how these very human things happen within football. And then, you know, we go into, you know, the final two episodes where we're not only talking about how deeply personal and human the relationship is between play-caller and play, and play-caller

and system and why it is that it feels like a piece of yourself is. being expressed out to the world every single time you call a game. But also, there's a deeply important relationship between how much control you feel you must have at all times for some people and how much control really you should seed and need to seed to the players who are making these things happen and who are bringing these systems truly to life. And what happens when you seed that control? What happens when you lose control? What happens? What happens? when you take too much of that power for yourself. Really, really insightful, interesting stuff.

And of course, you know, we look ahead to the future. This league is changing faster than ever. It's evolving faster than ever. There's more information available than ever. And it was really fascinating hearing from all of these coaches and so many more across the league, how they find what's next. And also, what is coming next? And it was really fascinating to hear such a diversity of thought and opinion on that.

So the idea of these guys growing up, up in front of us. You know, you've had a front row seat to that with Sean McVeigh over the last several years. You've written eloquently about that. And I think that you've really kind of given us a lens into what that has looked like personally for him. But these other guys, you don't cover every day. You haven't gotten kind of the exposure to that. So on that personal side of things, what's one or two things that you can share just that you thought was particularly illuminating about the experience these guys have lived and how it's shaped them individually? Yeah, I think with everybody. And again, this reporting,

process has been a huge undertaking and main undertaking over the last year. So it has been really cool going to those places and meeting people and talking to people, talking to these coaches, to gain firsthand experience and to really understand or try to understand more about who they are as people. That's been a phenomenal experience over this past year. And what I've really taken away from it is every single one of them, it doesn't matter how well adjusted or quote unquote like normal they are or not. There's this constant battle with, am I, will I let this thing, this passion of mine for this game, this competitiveness, this obsession with finding the right answer, will I let it take control of me or will I take control of it? And I think there are some

coaches who I spoke with that are very, very comfortable living in that darkness, living in the space where I understand this thing will consume me alive, but I actually work better that way. And then there are coaches who are like Sean McFay, who is constantly grappling with, how do I not let that obsessiveness? How do I not let that perfectionism? How do I not let that totally consume me? How do I separate myself from that space? And then you talk to someone like Mike McDaniel, who I cannot wait for people to hear

more from Mike McDaniel. I understand, you know, we love him for the quotes and the funny stuff and all of that. But there's some demons this guy has faced. And there's some things that he's gone through. He's the one who worked with Kyle Shanahan the longest. There's some things that he's experienced and there's some things that he has learned in a very short time on this earth because they're all so young, right? And I think the way that he's processed those things and the way that he's then applied them to how he's going to run his team, how he's going to put himself into what he does in a way that I think he understands what it's like to be at total rock bottom in a way that some of these other guys just haven't lived.

So I think that that's been really interesting and informed a lot of the, I think the consideration and we see some of the empathy that he's shown, especially toward not just how his quarterback is playing, but also what his quarterback is feeling as he's playing? And I think that that's something that I'm really excited for people to hear more from Mike McDaniel on this. The other part of this is not just their own kind of personalities and examining their own personalities, but the ways that those tensions kind of play out with one another. I don't want you to give away too much, but are just people are in for a treat. That's all I'm going to say. So is there one kind of point of tension that you think people should be looking for with kind of the interpersonal dynamics within this group that you found was particularly illuminating or interesting?

Well, it's they're all, they're all doomed to be connected to each other forever, right? I mean, and I say doomed, like, I mean doomed. They are all doomed to be connected to each other. It is their fate because they, they, without knowing it at the time, they were a part of a catalytic event in the NFL in the creation and evolution of this offense. And now they, so they will never escape that with each other. And it's not like they want to escape. I think that they are all searching for elements of those early days where they are fighting with each other.

But something magic is happening out of those fights, right? Like I think that people, when people listen to this, I really want them to look at it with an open mind and a lens of like, no, this was okay. It's okay that they're fighting with each other. They are glad that they're fighting with each other because that means that something cool is about to happen, right? They know that. And then you have that process and that pattern when you do that over and over and over again. That's your body of data.

That's how you think in your mind cool things happen is you have to have that friction, that fight. And so I think that – and it's so football, right? Because, of course, it's, you know, the game of competition and game theory and all of that. So what I want people to really think. about as they listen to this is not just the things that are being said and the things that how they talk about each other and some of the honesty that some of them share about their experiences. But I also want people to listen to what's not being said. And I also want people to listen to some of the silences and some of the things that, again, they can't help but all

be aware of each other at all times because they are all connected. And I think there's a really deep, truly a really deep respect among all of them because they're the only people in the world who understand each other's experience. But you can't truly open yourself up anymore or trust those people who are the only ones on earth who know what your experience is because you're all trying to kick the shit out of each other. And it matters for your legacy whether you're the one who last, who like can be at the top. and it matters. And so you can't pick up the phone and call, you know, your friend who is the only one who you know would be great to talk through this concept and who would be great to really understand this situation or like just a vent. You can't do that. And so then it further insulates and further compounds some of that pressure and some of that obsession. And you hear it through the course

of this show. You definitely can hear it. I'm excited about just the, again, kind of the depths of the human element of this, where the bitterness, the jealousy, I mean, all of those things that inevitably are going to kind of come out with people that are this close to one another, right? They like has to exist. But also just the larger kind of scale considerations about use whatever scientific metaphor you want, right? To me, it's like the rocks in the stream that are redirecting like the course of the water. And you talk about that with the 2012 Washington team, but just the idea that being around John Gruden and being in those buildings and like the scope and the breath of that passing game and how that influences Kyle Shanahan. Just those little nuggets along the way that ultimately redirect

like the course of the larger scale schematic understanding that we have that dictates the league. This is all you could want out of a football story. So I'm very, very excited for people to hear it, for people to experience it and for people hopefully to come away with it from with a very real and much better understanding of why the league exists in the shape that it. it does today. Yeah, and it's not all fun in games, right? I mean, it's not all fun. There's a darkness to it. And then there's also, you know, where we're at today in the league is, is so much of what has happened over the last decade is a direct result to how all of these coaches have made decisions. And this series explores that too, because when you have people who are catalysts, and again,

And like you said, the small moments are making certain decisions that completely reshape and redirect an arc or a timeline or forms a new tree ring. And if we're looking at it, you know, big picture. All of those things are important. And so I really am excited for people to listen to this. I've put everything I have had and more that I didn't know I had into the reporting and the script writing of this story. I've had some really great producers, Mike Smelty. and Kent Garrison working with me on it as well. And just to be sitting in those rooms and trying to understand people,

but also this understanding and this discussion and dialogue about the sport itself, it really was a gift. And so for me, I just can't wait to share it with people and to, you know, explain what I learned and then also help people understand in the ways that I was also allowed to see. And it just, it was a very cool experience. Very excited for that story to live on our airwaves, digital space, whatever the podcast feed equivalent of airwaves is starting Monday, July 10th. All five episodes of play callers will be available wherever you get the athletic football show. Very excited, very honored to be able to

showcase that story and your work for the world and for the football loving public. Jordan Rodriguez, really, really appreciate the time and we will catch up very soon. Thanks for having me. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Jordan. Thank you so much to Nate. Really had a great time. It's always fun of a recording person, man. I joke to Nate at my wedding.

They were having a good time and really enjoying Chicago and Lauren was really liking it. And I said to her, I was like, this is part of my plan. This is part of my plan. It's a slow drip. So I'm getting there now. Everyone, very much appreciate you guys listening. We will be back later this week. Talk to you soon.

This was the Athletic Football Show.