The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - What the hell are you?: The teams we can't figure out

Episode Date: August 8, 2022

Every NFL season dawns with a number of questions, including the one at the heart of this episode of The Athletic Football Show...what the hell are you? The Ringer's Ben Solak joins Robert Mays to try to figure out the Patriots, Cardinals, Saints and a couple of other teams going through an identity crisis. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is Monday, August 8th. I am thrilled to welcome my good buddy, Ben Solac from the ringer. Ben, how you doing, man? I'm well, Bobby. How's it going? I'm doing great.

I've wanted to do the show for a little while, and you are the person that I've wanted to do it with because I just feel like you bring the right incredulous energy to the conversation I want to have today. When I was looking at all the teams, just look at a list of NFL teams, which is kind of how some of these ideas come up this time of year. There was a group of them, I don't know, maybe a quarter of the league, where my first thought, my prevailing thought when I saw the logo was,

what the hell is that team? And there's a good chunk of the league that I feel that way about. And that's what we're doing today. I'll let Beller title this or whatever he wants, but teams with an identity crisis, teams we can't figure out, What the hell are you? That's the general feel of the conversation that I want to have. And this is funny because I sent this to you as like, all right, you give me your teams that you want to talk about.

Some of the teams that you sent me would have been at the top of my list. And we'll get into a few of them. Some of them, my thought was, I kind of know what they are. I'm not excited about it, but I kind of know what they are. We're going to talk about five teams today. And I'm really excited to chew on this. the team I want to start with, it's a team you had on your list. It's the team I thought of when I wanted to do this show.

And that is the New England Patriots. Nice. Can you explain the 2020 New England Patriots to me? So, okay, the Patriots. I made a gamer joke on Twitter that I will now make again for all the young folks. But it's basically like when Tom Brady left New England, he left New England to 100% the game, to win it in every facet. I won a bunch of liberals in the AFC, now I'm going to go in the NFC. I'm going to do it that way.

It's just like every potential achievement in a video game, Brady wants that. Belichick is doing challenge runs. It's where you take like a game and you make it way more difficult for yourself just to prove that you're better at playing it than other people, right? It's like when you were like, you were in the gym with your buddies in high school and you were like, watch this and you like put your arm over your eyes and turned around and then shut a half court shot. And you're like, I'm just so good at this.

I can do it with all these handicaps. Belichick seems, that's actually not fair because it's pretty. projecting on to Belichick doesn't seem like anything. He's just the same curmudgeon he's always been. But reading the tea leaves, it feels as if they're trying to like make a point in terms of some of the games that they play and the way that they play. Like when they beat Buffalo with three runs, that made sense for the weather, or excuse me, with three passes, that made sense for the weather. But it was also a middle finger. Like it was also an FU. It was just like watch what I can do that you can't. You know what I'm saying? And so they are a very, they're a very, they're a very frustrating. team to look at on paper because when I look at a receiver core of like Kendrick Bourne uh Jacobi Myers Devonte Barker Nelson Aguilar type 1 Thornton I go yeah I get that like I see all the prototypes yeah yeah I understand the roles just why don't you get a good player instead of just like five mediocre you know what I mean like the roles make sense why is it like this when they trade shack Mason for a fifth I'm like okay I get it you know

you move veterans for for capital it's smart you're staying ahead of the curve but have you watched Shaq Mason play? Like there's things that they feel like they make sense. And then when you start to interrogate it and really look at the roster, you're like, this is the ninth best roster in the AFC. And I still think they're going to make the playoffs because of Belichick. But also I'm perplexed by how they decided this roster construction made the most sense. You're getting into a very important point here.

These are not teams we think are going to be bad. I think the Patriots are probably on the brink of making the playoffs. The Patriots also have $4 million in caps. base, they have committed to this version of the roster. And I guess my question is, if you've committed to this version of the roster, where do you sit in the pecking order of the NFL? Because that's exactly how I feel about their offensive personnel. You look at the 11 players, even after moving on from Shaq Mason, you know, Owenu there,

still have Isaiah win, Trent Brown is there, they draft Cole Strange in the first round. They have Mark Andrews, or David Andrews. It's like, okay, that five makes sense. I get how the tight ends fit together. I get how you have every archetype of receiver and you want to play with who's in the slot. Maybe Thornton's there as a speed option. You have some size. Kendrick Bourne's a little bit versatile.

But what is that offense? Even if Mack Jones is better than he was last year, even if Mack Jones takes an incremental step as a quarterback, I still think that they probably are a top 12-ish offense is the best possible outcome. Maybe. Or an 80th percentile outcome. That's where they are. And that's before you even get to the questions of, Who's calling plays for this offense?

And in what bucket are the plays? This idea that they're going to adopt this McVeigh-Shannahan-esque offense where there's a lot of jet motion and a lot of condensed splits and they're going to be booting a lot. Matt Patricia and Joe Judge are the people to be overseeing this shift. I have nothing but questions about not only what it will look like and why, how the ideas are transferred and what the final product ultimately means

for the ceiling of the group that they have constructed. I have truly no idea the answers to any of those questions. It really feels like a lot of how the pages are built is just like a series of like practical jokes gone wrong. Like Malcolm Butler might start a corner for this team. That's a whole different conversation.

And like that's like kind of funny because it's 22 and we know everything about what Malcolm Butler's career has been. But when you start folding it into like, yeah, he might start Matt Patricia and Bill O'Brien. Joe Judge, the other Patriot cast off. It's not even Bill O'Brien. If it was Bill O'Brien, that would make more sense than the two guys that they picked. Right.

Joe Judge might start like you have, right, Cole Strange, the Chattanooga guy, you know, the pick that was made just to show how much better it we are, that fighting players than you are. It's not actually why it was made. He's a good player. But, you know, like, that stunning first round pick, he might start Mac Jones, who like, everybody, when they picked Mac, it was just like, he's the next Tom Brady. And you watch Mac playing, you're like, he absolutely is not. Like, this is like a play action shot offense in Alabama. It looks nothing like the Brady offense.

But lo and behold, we're just going to grab another, you know, immobile pocket passer in an NFL that is massively far away from this prototype. And we're just going to make it work with him to 235-pound running backs because all we believe in is ground. a pound football. It's like a little practical joke at every single positional group. And then you look at it all in the aggregate and I do not understand how this team is supposed to work. I'm wondering how Mack Jones fits this type of offense. If they're going to move the pocket a little bit, if they're going to kind of manufacture some of those downfield shots through play action, is it going to look like some sort of version of the 2019 Rams? But that's another question that I have. It almost feels like, you know the exercise they did with the rookies this year and it was all over social media?

where they had to draw the logo of the team that they played for. This almost feels like an exercise where you have Matt Patricia drawing the Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan offense. And what does it look like? You're going to get something that vaguely resembles it in some ways, but actually doesn't look like it at all. And beyond him calling offensive plays, the idea that Matt Patricia is the person to be the offensive line coach for installing an offense that is more focused on outside zone and has

some of these principles to it, is he the right person to do that? I really don't know. And again, I'm left with more questions and answers when it comes to this team. And I haven't even gotten to the defense yet where Malcolm Butler, like you mentioned, who did not play football last year is going to be potentially starting for this team. Why not? It's fun, right? Jalen Mills, we signed him.

We'll play him at corner still, even though that didn't work. I do think, last known in the offense, I do think Mac works for that offense. I do think that it's beneficial to Mac, beneficial to their running back core. I think that Ramondre, Stevenson could be really, really good in the offense. that offense. The thing about Mac is he's not mobile, but his footwork is awesome, right? And that was what was really, really good for like Kirk when this offense first came out. So that's exactly, that's exactly the comparison I keep coming back to. When it looks good, Kirk Cousins looks great in this offense. Yeah. When Mac was at Bama and it was like, all right, they're putting

out this just like, guy was a third stringer like, like, what is this? And then he was having the success making these downfield shot plays. He was really, really, really good at buying a half second in the pocket. He had really, really, really good feet. And that I think is going to be beneficial to him. I think this offense, when it comes through the ringer, will be good. I just don't understand why this is the way we're going and why we have to go through this whole process. On defense, I assume, and maybe this is unfair, I just get Belichick the benefit of it out every single time when it comes to this stuff. And you look at aspects of the defensive roster. It's like, all right, the safety group is interesting.

They can do a lot of different things with that group. There are a ton of questions about Corner, how Marcus Jones fits into this. is Malcolm Mutt were really going to start? Obviously there's some turnover at linebacker, but I do think they have the bodies on that side of the ball to still be pretty good with Belichick pulling the strings. But this is, again, a team that's capped out with a rookie quarterback contract,

and are they one of the best four or five teams in the AFC, even if things break right for them? No. I think that's my answer too. And maybe famous last words, and I'll be regretting saying this when we get to October and they're somehow seven and one, because they figured this out and Mac is taking a big step and all of that.

But it just feels like if we're trying to make an argument from why Mac Jones in 2022 can take a Joe Burrow-esque leap forward, like the way that Burrow did in 2021, there's no Jamar Chase walking through that door. You know, this is a group that they're fine and I understand how the pieces fit together, but I don't feel super good about any individual piece. Shout out, by the way, Bill Belichick extending Devon Godshaw and then calling Devon Godshaw, one of the best defensive lineman in the league. Could you pull Devon Gautch out of a lineup?

You're exactly right. It's a series of practical jokes. It's a bit that he is fully committed to, and you have to appreciate it at this point. And, like, the thing is, Devon was pretty good for their defense last year. He was a free agent pickup from Miami, and they got him working in the, you know, they play with those heavy defensive tackles, and they ask him to meet multiple gaps. It was there. It was functional.

He's not one of the best defense of linemen in the league. We all have eyes if we can see this. But like, I can understand how this defense is going to work because I generally understand how Belichick defenses work, right? They have these extremely physical linebackers, right? They have Juan Bentley, they have Rayquo McMillan, who they also brought in from, he was with Miami, and he was with the Raiders.

There should be some sort of frequent flyer program. If you've played for the Dolphins of the Patriots, you should get a discount on the flights between Logan and Miami. It should be part of the process or Providence, if that's where you fly out of, your choice. I think there's never been fewer than five X Eagles on Frank Reich's Colts teams, like every single year and the people who they are changed. Like he's got a quota that he has.

It's always funny. But I see how this Patriots defense works in theory. Like they have the bodies that they typically have at linebacker. They have the bodies that typically have it like safety, Kyle Dugger, Drew propeppers, Adrian Phillips. They're going to play, man, they're going to be super physical in the running game, crashing out of the linebackers. And then they're going to have these bespoke game plans because they have Belichick

where they're able to just like beat an offense. They shouldn't beat and just sit on them for four quarters because they found something that they liked and they're able to egg. execute over the course of a week. I get that. It's the fact that the names have changed so much, but the salary cap figure is still so, so, so high. That makes it like, all right, I don't know why we had to spend all that money to get here. It's a lot of shuffling to end up at this place, and it's a lot of money spent to end up at this place. Yeah. All right, let's move on to our next one here, a team that I had right at the top of my list, and that is the Pittsburgh Steelers.

So the perfect example of this. When the Steelers drafted George Pickens in the second round, Deiante Johnson was coming to the end of his deal. Figured out, maybe they see George Pickens as that replacement for Deonti Johnson is going to be their ex-receiver. They don't want to pay Deontay Johnson. They'll let him walk and they'll just start replenishing that group of cheaper players. Instead, they draft George Pickens in the second round and extend Deontay Johnson. So now you have both of those guys there.

And again, I understand how those pieces fit together too. But I don't understand the timeline for this team based on some of the moves that they've made, the quarterback that they drafted. Do they want to win right now? Bringing back guys like T.J. Watt and Minka and going to trade for Miles Jack, is this a two or three years down the line situation? How old is Cam Hayward in two to three years? What does this roster look like by the time a Kenny Pickett will allow them to be competitive?

Again, a lot more questions than answers with this team. When you're trying to figure out the Steelers, where do you start? See, I was okay with figuring out the Steelers. To me, like I got a pick. I got him pegged. So they made the wild card round each last two years. They made the playoffs with Ben Rothesberger. This 2020's version of Ben Rothesberger,

which everybody outside of the building was saying it. Nobody inside the building was saying it publicly, but everybody, you can call Spade a Spade of Spade, was really prohibitive quarterback. They could only run X number of things, right? Like, he just refused to turn his back to the defense. Can't do under center play action. That's what it is.

He was prohibitive. He was limiting. The offense was very siloed with Ben Rothesberger at the helm. And then also, like, talent-wise, he was depreciating. So they say, all right, we made the block card around the last two years. Defense is great. We made the playoffs.

We still have Mike Tomlin. Let's grab a quarterback. Plug and chug. We're going to improve the offensive line. We're going to add to the receiver core. Offense is going to take a boost and we go. The problem is they hadn't updated the quarterback software since the last time they had a draft guy, which was 2004, right?

You remember the big Twitter thread where when Del Curry got divorced and it was like, you don't want to be out here, man. It's different out here. You know what I'm talking about? Yes. That was the Steelers drafting a quarterback in 2022. Last time you were out here, man, 18 years ago, it was different, okay? We were playing by different rules.

The world has changed. And so they're sitting there at 20 and like, holy smokes, Kenny Pickett fell, incredible, cerebral pocket passer. You don't want to, you don't want this anymore. It's different. You want to be approaching quarterback differently. They didn't like update the code for how they found their guy. So they make the pick with Picket. And to me, that's a bad pick.

And so, like, I understand what they are. It's they made the wrong selection. Obviously, Pickett's returns in training camp haven't been great, but, like, taking that with a massive grain of salt because it's training camp, still, I don't think that's the destiny you wanted to write for yourself, was even if you got, like, the Derek Carr outcome from Kenny Pickett, which to me was, like, the ceiling ceiling, you're going from a 9-and-7 team losing in the wild-card round to a 10-and-6-odd,

there's 17 games, a 10-and-7 team losing in the wild-card round. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't elevate your ceiling that much. The offensive line improvements are the same thing. absolutely. I understand why you wanted to bring in veterans. Paying Mason, Cole, and James Daniel is not necessarily what you want to be doing, though. So I think, like, I understand who they are and why they thought, let's grab a quarterback, grab another receiver, let's load up on this offense really quick.

Like, Naji hit for us, Fire Meath hit for us. We are ready to put the final pieces in on offense and pushing the AFC North. I get why they thought that. I just think the additions they made were poor. I'm glad you brought that back around because I was going to interpret. interrogate some of the things you said. You said they improve the offensive line. The defense is still great.

Are either of those statements true? Those are the things that I want to talk about here. Even if I think the Steelers believe they know what they are. Yes. I don't think I necessarily agree with those assumptions and those assessments of what they are. The offensive line is a really good place to start. They add those couple pieces. They go get Mason Cole and James Daniels.

I don't know how much better they are. The idea that Kenyon Green is now just dejected into the back row, and they brought in Mason Cole to be their answer at center. That's a question to me. Pat Meyer is their new offensive line coach. The last couple stops that Pat Meyer has been at, not sure the offensive lines have been thriving. He was in Carolina for the last two years,

and then with the Chargers, the two years before that, and I don't think they have a ton of talent up there. He's so ready to handle the turnover, though, all the changes in the offensive lines. That's all his lines have done last couple years. That guy is super good at learning people's names. It's one of the things he's best. that I guarantee it.

And you look at the Kenny Pickett thing, and I think it's exactly right. The argument, and something else you said, you said, Kenny Pickett is a cerebral quarterback, which I would also push back on. I know. I disagree with that. It's just that's what the 04 software told them. That was the lie it told. So if Kenny Pickett theoretically, theoretically has the high floor, low ceiling set of outcomes

among the quarterbacks available in this year's draft. And I think you could land on that assessment, even if I think it's a little bit flawed, and based on some preconceived notions that aren't really true when you actually dig down in who Kenny Pickett is. If you drop that guy into what this version of the Steelers is, what are you? When can you compete? What is your offensive ceiling?

Do you want him to win the job early? Because it seems like he's not. It seems like Mitchell Tribesky is going to be their starting quarterback in week one. No, no, no, no. It seems like Mason Rudolph has a chance to win the starting quarterback job, which is just the best way of saying for media and for Matt Canada. Pickett is bad, man, this is not good. And that's not surprising to me,

because when I watched him, I did not see a guy who was totally in command. I saw a guy that was bailing from pockets more often than I thought he was. Any sort of comparison that people made between him and Joe Burrow, I couldn't see even flashes of it when I went back and watched Kenny Pickett in college. He is accurate. That guy, when things are moving in the right direction and Kenny Pickett is totally lined up, it is pretty when he throws a football.

There's a Kirk Cousins aspect. to that when you watch him play. But some of the underlying stuff, I don't know, man. It's so funny to me that in this podcast, like, what are you? We've mentioned Kirk Cousins twice. I think that's instructive. Yes, the leading player in the NFL for dude, what are you? What is this?

Is Kirk Cousins? This is the Kirk Cousins of Teams podcast. I think I have more faith than you do in the defense continuing to carry the team. That is where I was about to say that. I think for the same benefit of doubt we give to Belichick, we deserve to give the benefit of the doubt to Tomlin and the ecosystem they've built there, even if there has been turnover, right? We have a new defense coordinator.

So I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. But you look at it and there are still some familiar faces on this team, right? We have T.J. Watt. We have Cam Hayward. They went outside Larry Oak and Joby. Interior defensive line depth. There's a huge problem for them last year after losing Alauol with injury and Stefan too, not playing the entire year.

There's a lot of Chris Wormley snaps on this team. They go get Miles Jack. Seems like the acquiring of Miles Jack might be a sign that Devin Bush is on the way out. Robert Bush, Blaine, and Miles Jack have been rotating snaps during training camp. I think that's a bad sign for Devin Bush based on the way that he's played. Minka Fitzpatrick is still there now on a huge extension. Another thing that's kind of had some question marks to me, it's like, all right, you're just paying all these players. I would pay Minka Fitzpatrick too, but they're extending a lot of guys.

They're kind of locking themselves into this version of the roster. And that's okay. These are good players, but it just adds to this murky feel to me. The one thing I will say, you feel good about the corners on this team? Feel good about Levi Wallace and Akello Wetherspoon? I'm not sure I do. Listen, the card-carrying member of Levi Wallace is underrated and should have always been the Bill's Corner to Fan Club, which is like three of us.

It's me, Derek Classic, a football outsider, like, I don't know, probably Nate or something. I like Levi. They like Trey Norwood a lot in the building. I know the seventh round pick. They hope that he's able to play inside and out for them because I think Cam Sutton, who usually plays the slot for them, is also pretty good. I think between...

Yeah, Camp Sutton's a good player. Levi, Sutton, and Norwood, and also Akello. You feel good about how well you're going to cover wide receivers two through four. You do play in a division in which Jamar Chase is present. And I think the who covers the wide receiver one's question is very preeminent. However, that's been a problem for them that they've worked around. It's not like Joe Hayden was locking.

dude's up when he was here. You know what I'm saying? They've kind of, I think, had an issue of having to deal with start receivers and found ways to do that with a lot of safety help. Safety room is sick. Terrell Edmonds, what he is. He didn't pan out the way he'd like for a first round pick, too, but they know what a skill set is. They know how to use him. He's an absolute bullet. You have Minka. And then they got to Manta KZ, which when KZ is healthy, he's starting caliber player. It's just how many games out of KZ you get, but he came in free agency. I love how they're built inside out. They're built through the middle, right, through the spine. Obviously, the Devin Bush is a bit of a limited player. Like that interior and that safety group

causes so, so much trouble for an opposing offense, that it allows them to get away with some stuff in coverage otherwise. And then obviously you have a guy who doesn't get, his dominance does not get recognized the way it should in TJ. Watt. There is no edge rusher over the last two to three years that you would rather have on a third and eight got a habit than TJW. And I know that because he's leading the league in Sacks. He's leading the league in TFLs over that span.

He generates forced fumbles. He is the disruptor. And so they do have also a guy who gets viewed as like, he's one of the elite rushers. No, he's the ace in the hole. Like, he is the guy that you want over the last couple of years in those circumstances. I think defensively, again, they get yanked. Offense being bad, but they get yanked into like 500 hanging around in the wild card round. Again, not what they thought they would be, but I understand why they went that way.

Yeah, I think that's fair with the defense. And I think I have to check myself a little bit because they do have that star power and they do deserve the benefit of the doubt. Let's play this out. what is the best case scenario for the 22 Pittsburgh Steelers? The defense is the seventh best defense in the league, maybe even a little bit better than that. You got to believe, Robert.

And the offense is what? I mean, offense is like, between 16 and 20. The one name that we haven't really mentioned that is to me the biggest, like, what are you doing is the Matt Canada name. Yes, because we have no idea what the offense is going to look like because of Matt Rappasperger.

Anytime you can keep a man for multiple seasons, who has not been able to hold down a job for multiple seasons in years. You got to do it. Especially when he was only coordinating at the college level. You got to get him to the NFL level and then just keep him in the building, even though there's just no proof of concept whatsoever. And like it's a little bit worrisome because I think a lot of the theory behind Canada is like he mashers the right buttons under center, play action, motion,

like we got to get these things in here. There's a holisticness to that that matters a lot that I don't think Canada has. It's a little bit of button mashing, which to me, makes it. It's a bit of an, like, okay, he does the same things McVeigh does, but he doesn't do the same things McVeigh does. It's a lot of bells and whistles, but the vision is not really crystallized. Yeah. So I do, in terms of like hanging their hat on Matt Canada, that's where I'm like, what are you guys doing? Like, what is this? Come on. But I do think, like, offensively, they can be about average. Uh, I think that in a hyper-competitive AFC North, the Steelers are

looking for a division that eats itself alive. And everybody goes into week 17 at, at, nine and seven. You know what I'm saying? And then it becomes, you know, are you going to win these tight games against division rivals? Because while Mike Tomlin, he'll lose to the Jacksonville Jaguars.

He'll do it. Watch him. He does beat the Baltimore Ravens in Week 18. That is what he does well is he guts these teams through these nasty divisions. And I don't think, and gutting this team is the right answer either. I don't think gutting this team

was the right answer either. And it was never going to happen with this organization. I don't think it should happen. The standard is the standard for a reason. And I think you have to believe in that. But I do think that by committing to that version of it and wanting to work through whatever awkward middle ground this is,

it's going to be awkward. It's going to be really not pretty sometimes. I think that's what the season's going to look like. The end result, I think, is going to have them hanging around, but I think it's going to be ugly at times in the process. Yeah. Pittsburgh Steelers football, been ugly football for my dad's a Steelers fan. I cannot remember anything, but ugly Steelers football that ends always in a win that pisses

me off because my dad is like, yep, they ran it and they won, baby. And I'm like, I can't do this with you right now. And I guess that's the argument is that if you can stay competitive this year, you maintain whatever that organizational culture or feel is. And then next year, Pickett takes a step forward. He works through some of this stuff. You walk into the next season into 2023. He's taking all the reps the entire offseason.

This is the year where maybe we can break through and it looks a little bit less ugly. I guess I understand that vision. But in the short term, I still have a lot of questions about what this is going to look like. They also do get a pass because of GM change. GM change always means things get a little bit like what happens next. Do you know what I mean? How does this go? That's one of the reasons why I didn't put your boys on this list is because they, you know,

had a bit of a change at the top and that allows for a little bit of discombobulation. I can tell you exactly what my boys are. They're tearing it down to the studs. The bears are spending $160 million in cash on their football team this year. This is a tear down of the likes that you very rarely see. All right. Next on this list, you want to talk. about the Arizona Cardinals, completely fair.

I have had this conversation or a version of it a lot on this show recently. When the Kyler extension happened, I talked about it with Diana. I would love your insight on this. What do you think the Arizona Cardinals are? Yeah, this is a little bit talking out of both sides of my mouth because I was like, I get what the Steelers think they aren't are trying to do. And I absolutely get what the Cardinals think they aren't what they're trying to do. All in time, baby, here we go.

Let's go win us a championship. What a depressing version of all in this is. It's just you look at it. You're like, in God's name, what is this monstros? It is horrible. There just is a total vacuum around Arizona where the self-awareness, like, when they make these moves within the context of the larger league, it's just a little bit pitiful. Give me an example.

I think $68.8 million for DJ Humphreys over three years, right? It's like 30-something million guaranteed. I have here. 24 million guaranteed 66.8 total over three years. They saved $6.7 million in cab space.

Well, you got to pay James Connor, man. Yeah, you could go get an actual corner. I don't know, maybe you don't have to play Marco Wilson for another year.

You don't have to ask Byron Murphy to cover wide receiver ones in the NFC West anymore. But DJ, DJ Humphrey's always still young. It's another three-year extension. He had,

he's had one, he had one good season. He had a good year in 2020, which is also like the COVID year that doesn't count. I don't, I don't. I don't understand how you watch that line play, that playoff game against the Rams,

and then go, all right, let's get a couple extensions on this group, and we're solid. I don't understand how you can spend all of the capital, trade for D'Andre Hopkins, draft Andy Isabella, draft to Keem Butler, draft Christian Kirk, draft Rondale Moore, and then trade a first from Markey's Brown. Also, did we sign Zach Ertz yet? Make sure we get Trey McBride in the second. What direction are you heading? You can't.

The one thing that Cliff Kingsbury was, remember when you said incredulous energy at the beginning of the podcast? I knew the Cardinals were going to get me. The one thing that you brought Cliff Kingsbury in to do was to get a passing game working and you have spent so much money on pass catchers. That doesn't make that, you got to square that. Then there has to be a competitive edge somewhere, right?

Like your elite players have to let you cheat at other positions. That's like this idea between like wide receiver movement in the league is like, all right, you either need an elite quarterback or an elite receiver, and that way we can get a passing game working. You don't have to spend as much in the other place because you have this guy. They give a huge extension for Kyler, huge extension for Cliff, and all they're doing is spending monies on pass catchers try to make this passing game work. Meanwhile, the running game has been like actually halfway decent under Cliff,

and the defense has been top 10 in DVOA the last two years, and they will get any doggone players for it. It just doesn't make any sense. It's amazing that Vince Joseph just has somehow cobbled this thing together with gum and two tithics and whatever. And now, Chandler Jones is gone. And they extended Marcus Golden, who like sick for Marcus Golden,

but come on. I will say, Vance has gotten two, I don't think it's Vance, by the way. They've drafted two linebackers in the first round over the last three years, which we can get into whether that, we don't have to get whether that was a good idea.

I know it was a bad idea. And they're finally playing Isaiah Simmons at safety in camp, apparently, which means they are Hassan reticking themselves again. Would they play a rookie, at the wrong position, switch him to the right position, right before he hits free agency. They're not going to extend him.

And then Redick went to Carolina and Philadelphia, $15 million a year. They're about to do the same thing with Simmons. I will say this. This is why I wanted to let you take this one because I've done this so often over the last two months. They drive me nuts. I'm totally fine with the DJ Humphrey's extension.

If you look around the league and with the going prices for left tackles, he's on a per year basis up in a. range that he probably shouldn't be in. He should probably be more in the Colton Miller, Jake Matthews sort of range based on the extensions those guys got. But it's only $34 million guaranteed. I think he crosses the threshold for me.

Left tackles is a threshold position where if you have a guy of a certain quality, it's probably better to have a minor team than it is to not. But the rest of the offensive line is obviously what the hell is going on. The fact that Will Hernandez was their big free agent move. That's the concern to me. If you look at the moves they made just on offense,

and that's before letting corner, wallow in the way that they have. Looking at the resources they had coming into this offseason and what they needed. The idea of giving James Connor a big extension, giving Zach Ertz a big extension, and letting the offensive line just kind of sit there and having Will Hernandez be the big addition that you made.

I think a smart team, I think a team that does this really well and understands how all these pieces fit together. Look at what happened with Zach Ertz and James Connor last off season and say, how can we get another version of Zach Ertz and James Connor in this off season. How can we find a guy who is an undervalued player at running back

that can come in and fill a similar role for us? How can we find a veteran that's on the market for a reason like Zach Ertz was? We can trade a mid-round pick for him, kind of piece this thing together, rather than committing yourself to a version of the offense that really wasn't scaring anybody by the end of the season. I understand Geodry Hopkins wasn't there, but I still feel like locking yourself into the personnel you had

at the end of 2021. Doesn't make you any better. It doesn't make you any scarier in the NFC than you would have been if you were trying to tinker with whatever the vision for this group was. And that to me is the question. And that to me is the problem.

Yeah. And Barnwell, when he did his off-season recaps for ESPN made a really good point where it's like, Ertz and Connor, like good additions. When you get into the nitty-gritty of it, right? Like Connor, incredible goal-line threat. He was below expectation, rushing guards over expectation last year,

relative to the context. Like, he's a good player, useful player he's probably a role player and that worked when chase emmonds was around chase emmins not around anymore zach ertz uh volume went up because the cardinals passed more but in terms of like yards per route run and target share he was about what he was with the eagles when the eagles were trading him for a day three pick and now he's got a a two-year extension functionally because the guaranteed money in his 30s it's a little bit like those were good additions but those are your headliners in terms of the moves that you've made recently, that's not great.

They are fine players. They're useful players, but they're also like a little bit less than maybe they seem, given the way that they dawned last year for the team. Now, now that we've talked about the good part, let's talk about what's really wrong with the Cardinals. Messaging. What? Does everyone in the building hate everybody?

That's the other thing that's driving me nuts. The Cliff comment about play calling and Kyler late last week was absolutely wild. Let's read it. Yes. Josh Weinfuss, this is, by the way, in my notes, this is the first thing. It's not any details about transactions or off-season. It's just this quote. Josh Weinfis.

I asked Cliff Kingsbury about having Kyler Murray call the plays via radio on Saturday. Quote, I just want him to know that, hey, this shit ain't easy every now. And then he starts shaking his head when I'm calling it in there. I'm like, all right, go ahead, big dog. What are we doing? Why are you saying this? You've been a head coached to a football team for like eight years. You just, you just, you just got over a week's worth of drama because you were, you put in a contract that the guy has to watch four total hours of film, which is extremely pathetic.

You have people on Reddit posting Kyler's stats on and off of double XP weekends for Call of Duty. You are in disarray as a team and you're like, what if I just pot shot my cornerback for questioning my play goals in the preseason? there's no need for this man it is it is a mess of a team right like this is like they're clearly they want to be all in and like you said like what a just a disaster what a what a complete just just a total miscalculation of all in but then there's just this inability for them all to get on the same page I would say like a cornerstone of being all in is the internal feeling even if it's not matched externally that your GM your head coach your quarterback or in lockstep If you are all in, if you're all in, those three better all see the vision and be committed to one another.

They are in terms of extensions. They're all going to be around. I don't know if any of them actually like each other and agree with how the team's being made. And that's just what's fascinating is the Cardinals were one of the most aggressive teams in the course of the last like 12 months of offseason moves, roster moves, roster moves, transactions, whatever. And yet still, I'm like, does the quarterback want to play for this head coach? Does the head coach think the GM is managing the roster? Does the GM believe in the quarterback?

I'm question mark on all three of those. That is absurd that this team is so hazy internally, let alone how we view them externally. I think that's totally fair. As you were being very upset again, I was looking at some of the alternative paths they could have taken a tight end. This to me, this is what it is. The Bengals gave Haydenhurst a one year $3 million deal to come in and play tight end for that. Zachary's got a three-year $32 million deal from the Cardinals. If you're trying to fill that position and you're trying to think about resources,

would you rather have Hayden Hurst one year at $3 million or Zach Ertz at $30 million? So right now I would say Hearst, one year three, given what I know about the Cardinals' offense, I surmise we're going to get some nifty 12 personnel stuff. I think that's what they're telling us is that like, hey, because they up their 12 personnel numbers in each of the last three seasons. It kind of didn't do it that much early. And now they're kind of getting more tight ends on the field, giving them a little bit more flexibility in the running game.

and then Cliff is discovering like, oh, I can run Y cross with an actual freaking Y. Like that's been done. You know what I'm saying? Like he's kind of rediscovering the way you can use a tight end here in his system. I think that's all good. So I think we're going to see a lot more 12. And if like Ertz ends up being a really high volume player for them, I get spending the money on a better player, even though it's probably a little bit too much for Earths regardless. But like if it continues to look the way it has where it's like spread and shred, baby, then it's Hearst at 3 million.

because that's an intentional and understandable resource allocation. Yeah, even if it's more 12, and that Trey McBride and Haydenhurst were those two guys. I still think that if you're looking at, all right, now I have, Ertz is, you have, you have, but you have the life of the contract, you got $17.5 million guaranteed. Can we do some of that? We spent some of that on a guard?

Can just some of it? I mean, it just, or some of it on somebody on defense. And that to me is the problem is that when you look at teams, Josh Allen was in the last. year, last cheap year of his deal last season. They were in the same position or similar position that the Cardinals were in now. And the way that the bills look at that financial flexibility and say, I'm going to

take 10 dice rolls on all of these different guys and churn areas of my roster that need to be churned. That to me is the smart way to approach this. What the Cardinals have done is the not smart way to approach this. Because you look at a roster that feels the same as it did at the end of last season when no person in America felt good about the spot the Cardinals were in. And you have now, I think, you also have in the building the concern now that you're going to start the season 5 and 1, which is bad. It is bad to be worried you're going to start the season good.

But at this point, it's pretty clear what we expect to happen to the carnals after a good start of the season. We've seen it with two seasons of Kyler and Cliff. We also saw it with Cliff at Texas Tech. They come up with new stuff in the offseason. They make a couple additions. You don't know how they're going to use them. Marquis Brown and Will Hernandez and whatever. And then they get to the.

middle of the season, defenses catch up and they don't have the counter punch. And so you really want proof of concept in Arizona. You want to start the season strong. You made so many transitions. You gave big money to Kyler. It would be really, really beneficial, especially to remove the bad taste of the Rams loss from your mouth to start the season strong. But even that's a trap door.

Because when other teams start the season strong, we're like sick. With the Cardo's like, yeah, we've seen this before. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Developing good vibes here is going to be tough. Yes, exactly. Let me know where the temperature drops, what the offense looks like then. Temperature is the drop in Arizona.

a baby. Clipa Sockless 12 months of the year. You better grab that number one seed, baby. Let's sweep the division. All right. Next one here. The New Orleans Saints. I understand why they were on your list.

I think I've kind of in on the Saints. I was sitting there marinating at it all morning. And I've been a little bit apprehensive about some of the ways they went about this this off season. And I would never do what they did in the maneuvering they did with the draft. But I look at the final. product and I look at the roster and I hear things about Chris Oliva and I kind of understand it. I kind of understand the Saints sitting there in February, March, April and saying, you know what,

we don't feel really good about teams in the NFC. We think that if we can hit on a couple of these guys, we're closer than other people think whatever departures happen on defense. We cobbled that together with May and Matthew and whatever. The receiving core is going to be so much better than it was last season. That's going to let us open up the offense. There's continuity with the offensive staff. let's see if we can go 10 and 7 and make a run on this thing.

I do understand that vision in a way. I don't think I appreciate it at other times over the past six months. So why are they here for you? Yeah, so you said continuity with the offensive staff. That to me is the thing, right? Like if I like wipe the name New Orleans Saints from the world right now, and I give you a hypothetical, and I say, all right, Robert, we had a team, a continual playoff contender.

They had an established veteran quarterback and an established quality head coach who was an offensive mind, and they, for years, just every year, dialed it back, different offensive line, different receivers, dialed it back, dialed it back. And then that quarterback retired, and they signed a new one in free agency, signed a new, they got a new tackle in the building, they got a new receiver in the building. How confident are you that the head coach is still there calling the shots?

Because without the name the Saints, it's like, yeah, obviously one of the two is, like they would still have the head coach, they still have the guy that they trust. It's like this deals with Tomlin. All right, there's a big transition on this unit. But we have the guy at the helm that has a proven track record. We think he's going to hold things down. The fact that this offense was so good for this many years. And we were all like, yeah, Breeze and Peyton, Breeze and Peyton, Breeze and Peyton.

And both Breeze and Peyton are gone. And Mickey Loomis in the front office is still behaving like, yeah, you just draft some offensive guys plug it in and you're good is bananas. One of two things is going to happen. This offense is going to max out at like, you know, Flamus Winston, chaos, you know, kind of 500 team, or we're all going to discover that Pete Carmichael was the secret sauce all along, right? The Saints O.C. is still there. The offense continuity. So there's a chance Pete Carmichael's just to God. That would be sick. That would be hilarious. If that's like Carmichael's been the

straw that serves the drink or at least like learned enough to now be that guy, that to me is awesome. But I don't think that's the case. I think that this front office, Mickey Loomis, Jeff Ireland, learned over the course of Peyton Bree's era just how aggressive they could be on the cap, just how aggressive they could be with extensions and acquisitions, and it could come out in the wash because they had the cornerstones to rely on. And that was a huge competitive advantage for the Saints for many, many years. You got to pay the Piper at some point. Rainbow comes to an end.

For most teams, that's when the quarterback retires and the head coach retires. That is a sign like, all right, even if it's just for a year, let's reload here. Let's step back so we can step forward so we can reorient. The Saints, it really feels like hubris. It feels like Icarus too close to the sun. It's like it's been great. It's been gravy.

But you have to recognize right now that you cannot keep living the same way. You do not have the same rules that you did. Peyton and Breeze are gone. And for the Saints to be trading up to get another first round pick in the 2022 draft to draft a Northern Iowa tackle who has not finished practice because he can't stop trying to fight people is to me not great. I don't love that.

I'm a little worried about being that aggressive, even though it's worked for them for so long. You can argue against the validity or how smart it is to operate this way, but I have no, there's no confusion to me about what the saints are. This is what they are. Whether or not they should be this way

is an entirely different question. And the pending thing is hilarious. I yeah that's fine are we are we this is we're in a same space here this is the trust tree I think I don't you dare say you love it I think I know I'm out on it I'm just out on it like I there's sometimes with shit like this where I think playing through the whistle is great and I think having that mindset and bringing it is great I think I'm out on it Trevor Penning's version of it just not if you're a tough guy people find out you're telling people you're a tough guy I don't and listen this is all 155 pounds of me saying this so I don't know I'm not really coming

from a place of expert analysis here. But to me, you don't need to, like, be chasing practice squad corners wearing 40 to emphasize that you're like a tough dude. You know what I mean? I understand what you're saying about this. But I still think they had committed to this version of themselves in such a way that they couldn't make a left turn. When you have this defense and you have guys that are creeping into their 30s with Cam

Jordan, with DeMario Davis, and you have, you've already given Michael Thomas that contract extension. You've already paid a huge chunk of your offensive line. You started kicking the can down the road financially. The core of this roster was going to be what it was going to be. And so I think understanding that and saying we'd rather try to push it over the finish line rather than going all the way back the other way, that makes sense to me. But your argument that we don't know what the Saints are because Sean Peyton was a fundamental piece of how we understand the Saints, that to me is the question. is that going to affect our understanding of them so deeply

that by the end of the season, even if the entire offensive staff, and even the pieces they brought in, like Doug Marone is offensive Y coach on this team again. Doug Maron knows this place. He's worked with these people. They've really tried to keep the band together. But even if you're doing that,

it's like removing some, name your lead singer that is essential to the essence of the band. You bring in somebody else, even though all the pieces are the same. The band is fundamentally changed. And I think that's going to be the biggest question about the saints and about what. what their 2022 looks like.

Yeah, I just, I'm, you make a fair point. We're probably for the sake of like, I don't understand what they are. It's not a neat fit. It's more to me like, I thought I knew what the Saints were going to be because I thought once Peyton leaves, you just have to accept a dawning reality, a new age.

And the fact that they're not- You certainly don't. Yeah, it's just, it's just, I, I pissed off Kevin, Kevin Clark, my coach in the ringer when we ranked GM. I know who Kevin Clark Well, I don't know if everybody else listening does. I pissed off Kevin because we rang to GMs and I was like, listen, either Mickey Loomis is one or he's not in the top 10.

Like it's kind of that sort of a thing where it's like, you can't do this. So if it works, you're the best. Nobody will ever touch you ever. I don't think it's going to work. A thing that is understated in my opinion is because, like, the Saints have always worked around this well. But even though I know academically that they can handle this, these departures feel like a lot, man. Like the quality of player that has left the building recently in Trey Hendrickson gone,

Marcus Williams gone this year, Toronto Armstead gone this year. This is nothing to sneeze at. Like, these are, Armstead and Williams went to go be top 10 paid players at their position somewhere else. These were cornerstones the way you guys did things. Malcolm Jenkins retired, right? This is a defense that needs good safeties to work. Marcus Williams, you don't play this much man coverage. you better have a guy who can fly in the back.

I don't rank Marcus May like that. I think Marcus May is fine. I don't rank him like that, right? So there's stuff that that's scary in the departures. And I know that with the Saints, we're supposed to just be like, yeah, but they handle it. I cannot feel that confident

with the quality of player that's left. And the last thing that really matters there is the incoming Alvin Comirah suspension. If you are going to be all in, it is helpful if your star running back is going to play for 17 games. And I don't think that is an expectation that we have for Camara this season.

So now you have James dropping back with penning on his blind side. He's still got Tyne Montgomery. Is it Mark Ingram? Who's running back to right now? It's Mark Ingram. Holy smokes, it's Mark Ingram. Okay, so we got Mark Ingram at running back too. And he's thrown into a rookie first round pick and a guy in Chris Salave,

who I like quite a bit, but I'm not sure as like, I'm not sure this image that I'm drawing makes me feel great. And once I see like Taysam Hill on the, field for the 15th offensive snap, it's just going to be scary. All right, let me play devil's advocate here, though. You mentioned losing Toronto, Armstead. Toronto Armstead played eight games last year.

You mentioned losing Marcus Williams. I think having Marcus May and Terran Matthew and CJG and the guys they have at Corner, the secondary I feel like is pretty darn good. I think the front seven is more fragile than it's been in years past because the depth is not there. But if they can get something out of Peyton Turner, even if I'm a little bit worried about the interior,

the defensive line. I still think that group is pretty good. So I think you could make an argument that even with Armstead gone, the improvements at receiver, the depth they have at corner, this is a better roster, and Michael Thomas being one of those receivers potentially, this is a better roster than it was last year, and this team went nine and eight. And I think they were locked into playing a certain type of offense because they had no talent receiver.

If things can open up a little bit, can this team be a lot better on offense last year, even with Sean Peyton gone? I do think that is a potential timeline here. So again, I understand why they've done this, even if I'm a little bit weary about the aggressiveness and the approach that they took with some of it. We're going to get Cam Jordan career season back to back in his early 30s? That's the problem, is that if you have some fall off from those guys and things,

it's fragile. The defense is more fragile than I think it might seem because of how good they've been in years past. I think that sounds a really good defensive coach, though, man. And I really do. Based on all the early returns, Paulson Adibo apparently looks really good. Bradley Robes back there. They have excess players on the back end,

even after Marcus Williams. You can't say that about a lot of teams. And when you have that underlying depth and that flexibility combined with a coach that I think is really, really good at just creating matchups in the front seven in high leverage situations the way that Dennis Allen is, I have a lot of faith that the defense is going to be really good again, even if one or two injuries can kind of send them astray in a way that I don't think people

are appreciating. Yeah. For as suspicious as I am about the continued flying in the face of any laws of money or man that the Saints continue to exercise, I am not interested in betting against Dennis Allen with, like, DeMario Davis, and Cam Jordan, and C.J. Gardner Johnson and Marshall Lattimore and like that. I think that defense. I think Pete Warner played well last year.

And like, I think Zach Bond's going to have a bigger role this year. They've just been such a good incubator of defensive talent over the last five years. It's so irritating to be like this anti-Micky Loomis, not anti, but like question the way that he's been approaching building the team. And also just be reminded that every single defensive player that I've ever liked over the last four drafts he's selected. Chauncey was the absolute man. Paulson was so freaking good.

Pete Warner was awesome. Zach Bonn was amazing. Like they just, he knows he and Allen and that front office to DC and now head coach Nuclis, they know how to understand and evaluate and get in defensive talent. Like they are in lockstep in terms of what they need and how to get it and how to identify it. To Ron Matthew, I'm worried that they signed what they think is the 2019 version of Toronto Matthew. I'm worried that's not around anymore.

But other than that, like they continue to just bring in guys who just so clearly make sense and are quality of talents outside of the first round. And I guess if you can just draft out of your mind every single year, then you get to be flagrant with the gap. And it doesn't really matter. Well, they don't draft out of their mind every single year. I think that's part of the problem is that if you look at the hits and misses, that 2017 draft carries a lot of weight. They've been fine otherwise, but I don't think they've been substantially better of drafting them a lot of the other teams around the league.

I think that's kind of a misnomer. All right. Next one here for you was the Cincinnati Bengals. I don't know why they're on your list. And I'm very curious to hear why. Okay. So it's the what are you? What are you?

So what are the Cincinnati Bengals? Are they a Super Bowl contender? Yes, no. Robert Mays. You should be able to answer that question. question pretty quick if we're talking like we know what the Bengals are. I think the Bengals are a good team that, in my opinion, is potentially still one step further down from the best teams in the AFC.

I think that they got hot at the right time last year, but I still think that if I were power ranking the AFC teams, they would maybe not even be in the top four or five. Okay. So you are a fringe top contender in the AFC coming off of a huge playoff run. You made it to the Super Bowl. you have the single best thing, the ace of spades in the world of the NFL, which is a rookie contract quarterback. Given current changes to the world, you also have like the ace of hearts, the second best car, which is a rookie contract star wide receiver because you are saving absurd money in the nucleus that pretty much every team needs if they want to be able to make a playoff run. It's turbo time, baby.

Let's sign some players. Here we go. And I know they're the Bengals. I understand that the Bengals don't do that. However, it was like cute and funny when it was Carson Palmer and some wildcard rounds. If Burrow Chase doesn't make you get serious, nothing can make you get serious now, right? Like, okay, I agree that you probably are going to have to pay Jesse Bates to keep him. However, we are in keep good players in the building mode because we have the cash to do that

because Burrow and Chase aren't going to cost Jack for a couple seasons. There is, I cannot think of a better window. for building a Super Bowl roster other than rookie contract Mahomes over the last what? Seven years? Then what the Bengals have right now? This should not, like, the fact that we're doing like the cute little Bengals thing, they're not spending money. That is absurd.

That this team is like, like, I said, like, you know, you should be trying to figure out whether or not to sign Jesse Bates. You should be, like, and Domican Sue in the building. Anthony Bard's time of the Cowboys. He should have been there two months ago. It is give veterans one-year deal time. It is figure out who we can plug and chug time. It is, can we get a third star?

Get a third star. This is the moment. And if you're not going to embrace this moment, you are never going to get serious about winning a Super Bowl. And that sucks. That is lame. I don't like that only 31 teams in the league are trying to win. And then also this team that I watched in LA almost beat the Rams is just like, yeah,

we'll vibe. We might build a facility now. That's embarrassing. That's frustrating. And it makes me, like, I guess I understand what the Bengals are because this is what they've decided to be. But I don't understand how it's excusable. I don't understand how they've retained this even after the season they had last year. It's extremely frustrating.

So, all right. So looking at this right now. So the Bengals this year, I understand your frustration. If you look at the underlying numbers, I think you have a right to be frustrated. So cash spending this season, my boys, $159 million, $30 second in the NFL. Chicago Bears. Bear down. Falcons, 178 million. Again, two for two, teams that absolutely make sense based on where they are in their build. Giants, 205 million. Again, we're right in the same mold here. Feels great. The Cowboys are 29. I almost have the Cowboys on my list. The Cowboys are 29. And if you look at the roster right now, that makes a lot of sense. We got Jalen Tolbert and I don't know who else playing receiver for the Cowboys right now. Cowboys are up against the Cowboys. And I think the Patriots are also down here on this list. And there's a reason for that.

A lot of these teams are kind of strapped in the comes to spending money. So that's not necessarily surprising based on where the Cowboys are in their trajectory. The Bengals are 20. Bengals are spending $210 million in cash this year. Let's go to the other side of this. Teams that we also consider all in. Rams are number one. Bills are number two.

Saints are number three. The Jags and Jets are four and five, which there's a reason for that. the bucks are also in the top 10 Packers, Browns, Chargers. The Chargers are the team that I think is in the most similar situation to the situation that the Bengals are in right now. They have a guy who is a top five-ish quarterback

on a rookie deal and the Chargers said, fuck it, this is it. This is it, let's go for it. In the face of the FAC West too, where everybody is like, here we go. The Chargers are like, yeah, also here we go. And you guys are paying car,

Russell Wilson and Patrick Malmes. We're not. So the bank goes over the last five-ish years. In 2020, they spent a bunch of cash. They spent a lot of money on free agents. That was the year they signed Trey Waynes to a huge contract. 2021, they didn't spend as much to spend about $196 million, which isn't up near the top of the league,

but it's not one of the bottom five figures in the league. So I think over the last couple of years, they've kind of shed that reputation. But it's hard to look at how modest some of the moves they made this offseason were, even if they were at the right positions and not think they could have put the pedal to the floor a little bit more than they did. I understand that,

and I don't disagree with you. But I still think I understand what they are, roster-wise, top to bottom. I guess that your frustration is that you wanted them to be one of those teams at the top and they just weren't. Yeah, like when I think about like, what are you? Like, I think about team identity.

There's a couple of different ways that goes. There's like, you know, what are you going to be schematically? We talk about that lot with the Cardinals. Like they're going to change stuff, you know, offensively. The Steelers, we talked about that a little bit of the Patriots. The Bengals, I understand what they are skimatic.

I understand who's going to throw the ball, who's going to run the ball, how they're going to run it, how they're going to throw it. That's how I was thinking about it. Yeah, exactly. So this was a little bit of like a, you know, and I probably got too angry by the Bengals too quickly and should have maybe, you know, been a good podcaster and kind of primed this a little bit more. But it's not, it's less about, you know, who are you schematically? And it's more about like, who are you organizationally? This, again, it is not like, wow, the Bengals had a good season and they should probably be building better.

Because that's been true before. And like, it still's been annoying, but it's been a little bit excusable. There, again, like, I cannot think of a. better foundation. I cannot think of a better bedrock of a base for building a contender than what they have right now. The one thing that I forgot in my tirade is on top of everything, on top of how good they are financially and how good they are schematically talent-wise, they're also cool. This is extremely important. Like the Bengals, like Zach Taylor. Yeah, I don't know if Zach Taylor's cool. Cincinnati. I don't know if Cincinnati's cool. It's not getting free agents

in the building is hard. We don't talk enough about how the Rams benefit from being where they or geographically in terms of getting guys there. Not easy to get as many guys Cincinnati, Ohio. Sorry, Cincinnati, but this is reality. I think that shit is overstated. I honestly think that Joe Burrow is a better selling point than name your cool city that you would potentially live in. That's exactly the point. We talk about the cities, and I do think it matters.

But way, way, way more important is that dude. Because, again, like, I did not think Burrow was going to be this good in the pros. And I did not think it was going to be good in this way. and it simply boils down to burrow it is awesome. Like the way they get the deep ball working is exclusively predicated on the idea of burrow just being that guy. Capital T, capital G, whatever, the confidence,

the gumption, the fearlessness, the bounce back, whatever it is coded into that dude's brain. It is sick. Folks want to play with that. All you got to do is just give them money the way literally everybody else is in wood in your context. And the fact that they aren't is to me a, it's a disassociation between what their team identity is and what it actually should be.

So it's hard for me to figure out what the Bengals are. Because I asked you in the beginning, are they a Super Bowl contender? It's very, very tricky for me as an analyst to look at a team that played in the Super Bowl last year, look at their offseason moves, look at their roster and go, no, they aren't, when literally seven months ago they were. That's what makes them tricky to understand and parse out. Yeah, I mean, I think they could have thrown a little bit more on your round, but I do think the moves when you look at them in totality all make sense to me.

The guys that they, not necessarily the guys they went after, but going after the offensive line bolstering that, and even what they did in the draft, saying like, all right, let's get a little bit more flexibility in the back end. What does Dax Hill allow us to do even in a post-Jessie Bates world? But even with Jesse Bates, how does he become a really flexible piece? Going to get another corner and having that be the area where they really drilled down. They drafted another interior defensive lineman. They get Joseph Osai back this year who looked really good in camp last season.

I still think this team is going to be or can be pretty darn good, but I understand. your frustration, especially when you compare it to the way that some of the other teams at the top of the league or that we think our true Super Bowl contenders operated this offseason. Yeah. How do you, just for me, right, it's how do you not over the course of the next few months experience a 10 and 7 Bengals team that makes the wildcard round that loses the division to the Ravens and maybe wins one playoff game and, you know, whatever, falls out of the divisional round, let's say.

How do you not experience that in the context of the offseason, the money that they spent the moves they could have made with Burrow and Chase as the nucleus and not feel disappointed. It's not fair to expect a team to make the Super Bowl every year. I totally understand that. But if this team... You want to feel like they're trying to. You want to feel like they're doing everything they can to make the Super Bowl every single year. And if this team lands where we expect them to land, I don't understand anything but deflated over the way that they decided to get there.

All right. I'm less harsh on them than I think that you are, but I get where you're coming from. All right, there are a couple more teams we could hit. I feel like the Seahawks are probably part of this conversation. The Texans are definitely a part of this conversation, but with the Texans, I think it just would have been a 10 second segment where we both just shrugged. So I don't know how much there is to get into there. Davis Mills is excusable. Let's go, Houston.

They are such a weird team. LernerMittonsel is a $35 million cap it next year. I don't really understand what the Seahawks are, like them committing to some of these guys and paying people. But they spent a ton of money this offseason, but I have no idea where they're going. think there are a couple different teams we can mention here. As just a precursor, we are going to talk about all of these teams a lot before this season starts. We're doing division previews. We're digging into all of this stuff.

So do not worry, Texans Davis Mills heads. You will get your conversation here before we kick off week one. All right, Ben, thank you very much, my friend. I really, really appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's always good to catch up with you. We will do it again, hopefully very soon. Absolutely, baby. Hall of Fame game was earlier, it was last week, I guess.

Smells like football. Yeah, I'm not talking about that. We have a no Hall of Fame game rule on this podcast. Extremely awkward because I literally just saw that Nate was on Mike Golick show for Draft Kings and like the first bullet point of the description is watching the Hall of Fame game. Yep. You betrayed you. That's a choice that Nate can make.

It's not a choice that I'm going to be making. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'd very much appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. I'm telling you, even to prepare for this,

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Looking forward to it. In the meantime, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.