The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - What To Watch For During the 2025 NFL Combine

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Who's going to own the 2025 Scouting Combine? Which players are going to crush the testing? Which lesser-known prospects are going to turn heads? Who has the most at stake during the interviews? Draft expert Dane Brugler joined Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen to run through everything that really matters next week in Indianapolis. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. The NFL Combine is here, or sort of here. It starts in about three days. We wanted to get ahead of that with a combine preview of sorts that was really just the chance for Derek and I to let Dane cook about this group of prospects heading into the 2025 draft. We did a couple different angles to get into this conversation.

First off, I really just wanted to ask Dane what his Combine week looks like because I find it fascinating. He's there for like 27 days. and what those days are filled with. So we talked a little bit about just the rhythms of that week for somebody like him. And then we dug into this pool of prospects. A couple of things we wanted to try to hit. The goal here was for you guys to have players on your radar that are going to be the story of next week for one reason or the other.

So we talked about the guys who were going to own the testing, the guys who were the freakyest of the freaks that are going to be the ones that really show out, that are challenging records, that are ones that are just smashing the stopwatch over the course of next week. We also chatted about guys that are maybe a step or two down from that, but are going to turn some heads, guys that are maybe not top 10 prospects, but the way that they're going to test, the way that they move is going to make some people take notice. And then we talked about just who has the most at stake next week. And that gets beyond just the on-field testing. With that, we start talking about what the interviews are going to look like for some guys, what medical concerns might be had, which players need to weigh in or measure and hit certain benchmarks in order for teams to, feel comfortable about them. I don't know exactly how many players, Dan named on this show, but I'm going to guess it's at least 60 to 75. One of you weirdos probably could go back and count it if you wanted to, but we hit a ton of the bigger names and the bigger prospects in this

year's draft pool. So let's get into that conversation with Dan and Derek right now. It is officially a few days into the NFL Combine starts in Indianapolis, and it is time to ramp up to that event. And there is no better person. to help in the process of getting ready for what's going to happen in Indianapolis, then our draft expert here at the athletic Dan Bruegler. Dan, you're like, you're spending 20 days there. I'm assuming you're already there, even though the combine starts in like four days. How are you feeling as we get toward another year in indie for the combine?

I can't wait. And this is such a fun event for a lot of reasons, right? I mean, there's just so many different ways to attack this week. But it's a nonstop fact-finding mission, the entire process. process. And this week, there's a lot more to figure out. You know, there's a lot more opportunities to figure stuff out. So, no, I cannot wait. Indie's such a great host. I'm so happy that it's there this year. And then I think the next year, maybe another year. But, you know, there's, nobody wants this move. Nobody. So the fact that we're still going to Indianapolis every year is awesome,

even though it's frigid cold, there's snow on the ground. It's still, I'd rather be nowhere else in the country than Indianapolis. How many combines is this for you? This would be 15 for me. My first was 2011. Cam Newton, Von Miller,

and that was, gosh, Lucas Royal Stadium was there. That was built, but for the media side of it, we would do all the media availability in the stadium. Like, there was a big workroom. And now...

They used to do it on the club level. It used to do the club level was open and they had tape. on one side, and then they have these kind of makeshift podiums just on a single level of the stadium. That's how it was, probably the first three or four that I went to. I vividly remember the 2009 class, because I remember Mark Sanchez just being very charming during his media availability at the podium and on that club level. I can't remember which year they switched it. Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, it just became too much because they don't say no to credentials,

basically. I mean, they just, and I get it. Like, it's good for a lot of young guys coming up that, you know, want to cover the draft and like, that's awesome. Sometimes it has a little bit of a feel of, like, the Super Bowl Media Day where you're getting some bizarre questions and it's like, all right, who let this guy in? Like, I'm trying to attract you, trying to talk to this player. So some of it gets a little much at times. It gets a little crowded.

But, yeah, I mean, it's just fun to have access to 330 guys and be able to talk to them and kind of fill in the gaps. So, yeah, it's a crazy week. Derek, you've been to a few of these now. How many combines is this for you? This was your first Super Bowl this year, but I remember talking to you in Indy multiple different times. So I know this is not your first go-around for the combine.

This is, I think my first one was 2020, which is funny because that was like, it happens right before we shut the entire country down for COVID. We have no idea how many people got COVID that week. Exactly. It was, looking back on it, it was a very funny experience. And then- We're all just in crowded rooms yelling at each other.

The entire thing is everybody just packed in like sardines. And so probably that might have been ground zero. Who knows? So I went to that one. I think because everything was shut down the year after I didn't go to that one, but then I've been to everyone since then. So maybe four or five, if my math is correct there. And then this is my first one, though, like you said, after the Super Bowl.

So energy levels are a little bit different here. I think this go around than last time. So we'll see how it goes. The idea that's only two weeks between the combine and the Super Bowl now is just, it's tough. It's tough. It's hard to bounce back for that level of travel. And for me, it's that level of social stamina. Like, as a man in his late 30s now who spends, I think, a reasonable amount of time in public, but also a lot of time at home, based on where I'm at in my life, being out and about for like five straight nights twice within a month-long period and having to have extended conversations with people.

that many times in that short of a period of time, I just don't have it anymore. Like, it just takes so much out of me to talk for that long to a bunch of people, not even strangers, like people I like and want to see. But if we could just space it out by like two more weeks, I feel like my social battery would be recharged by that point. I relate with that so much just because I'm used to talking to like five-year-olds, you know, at home.

So like the opportunity to talk to adults is great. But at the same time, like, you know, maybe we're talking about different things because, you know, my mind's somewhere or, you know, a different place. And it's just different than it was five, six years ago. Yeah, it's definitely a lot because this is a relationship business. And so there's a lot of that. That's a big part of the week. There are some people I know that are a little bit younger than me who've been doing this for a while where they can just be out until three in the morning every single night. I won't name names, but there are people I know in the media that I'm always impressed by their ability to just go that.

that hard every single night. I always tell people now, I got one night. I got one 4 a.m. night at prime in me that over the course of the entire week. I got one. That's it. I used to be able to do it every single night. Now I have exactly one. And it's just about figuring out where the pointed strike during the week is going to be. Like I know when it's coming. By 4 p.m. that day, I know whether I'm going to have it in me, but there's only one shot now where there used to be like four or five. my first week in India, I learned very fast that you can only have one of those nights. And so now it's ever since then, since like 20, 22 and on, I've like paced myself like, all right, you get one 4 a.m. night. Otherwise, we got to get the interviews and stuff in the

morning. I gave you credit because my personal rule in Indianapolis for me is I'm not allowed to say no. Because there's, there's just, I, because this week is just so important to everything I do throughout the entire year that I do not let myself say, know if it's, you know, if I get a text, if I get, you know, this, that whatever it is, I'm not going to say no because you don't know what it might lead to. And so for me, and trust me, I regret it often. But it's, there are a lot of times where I've said yes, and it's turned out to be something really advantageous. So, yeah, that's just my own personal role for the week. There used to be a time when I would tell myself, oh, I'll just talk to people

at night. It'll be 2 a.m. and I'll be talking to this coach, and it'll be a really productive conversation, just lying to myself the entire time. As I've gotten old, I've realized that more coffees and more lunches is the best way to be productive when I'm in Indianapolis. So now this is a Mike Sando thing. I remember years ago just watching Mike work at this, I won't tell exactly where, Mike working at a coffee establishment somewhere in Indianapolis and just watching him do like almost a car wash of people coming through and talking to him. And I was like, that's how you do it.

Like that's the right way to go about this. So now there's a lot of like, do you want to meet for coffee at 9 a.m.? because I think that's, again, a more productive time and a more realistic time for me to be at my best, considering the age and just how worn down I am these days. Well, that's why I get down Sunday. Oh, go ahead. No, I say that's why I get on Sunday. It's Monday, Tuesday.

I load up on meetings. That's all I do from, I mean, most days, it's at least 15, 16, 17 meetings of some as, I mean, some of it's 15 minutes for coffee. I mean, I say coffee. Who are these people? I'm just, because I was going to ask you how you spend your time. Share as much or as little as you want to, but I think people would be interested in, like, what your schedule is over the course of that week,

considering you're spending eight days there. I mean, some days I'm eating three lunches, you know, like that's just how it works out. But yeah, scouts, agents, coaches, a lot of these guys, you know, like I said, this is my 15th combine. I know, you know, there's so many people that I'm friends with, and I talk to them throughout the year,

but this is maybe the one time I get some face time with them. And so it's great to catch up with them. Some of these guys or some of these people that I meet with are more, you know, I haven't met with them before. It's more networking and meeting new people in the analytics space or, you know, different, you know, there's so many different data tracking companies now and meeting with those people and, you know, just so many different types of people to meet with, because everybody's here. Everybody is in Indianapolis this week. And so it's just a great chance to, a lot of learning opportunities, a lot of chance to catch up. And that's what makes Indy so great. It's so walkable and accessible that you can have a meeting one place and for 15 minutes and then somewhere else for 50.

It's just, it's very easy to navigate. So, yeah, I get it on Sundays. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. It's just nothing but meetings, meetings, meetings. And I mean, just a little bit behind the scenes. Our athletic staff, we are, a lot of us, our NFL staff, we are in Indianapolis. This is kind of the one time a year where everybody's, there and we have a lot of athletic different events and things like that,

get-togethers and meetings and things like that. And I had yet to attend a single one because I cannot. And I feel there are people that I, at the athletic that I work with daily and I still don't know. I've never met him in person because I, when I'm in Indianapolis, I, there's so much other things there. My meeting is just in my,

the bosses understand. It's not like I'm skipping out or anything. they understand like I just this is what I need to do this week. But that kind of sums it up. Tuesday, Wednesday is when I hit Radio Row. That's where I don't know. It's crazy how much it's, you know, back in 2011, my first combine, there wasn't a radio row.

There wasn't anything like that. Now it's like kind of like. There's like four tables outside. When you would walk into that club level, there were like four different tables out at where you would get your credentials. It was like Sirius XM and like two other radio places and that was it. is the entirety of the media presence from an audio perspective. Now there's 50, 60 tables. I mean, it's just, it's packed with, you know, the team websites and different radio stations and different

streamers and things like that. So, you know, I last year I did over 50 interviews in those two and a half day span. So knock a lot of those out. You know, last year I did a hit or two in an NFL network, go over the stadium, do that. A lot of great people. A lot of, they've fun to catch up with them. Wednesday is when the prospect interviews start. So all 330 combine guys, they'll roll through the convention center. 90% of these guys have already talked to. But, you know, there's always a few where, you know, just kind of need to fill in the gaps in a scouting report or maybe a junior who I didn't anticipate declaring. I haven't talked to him yet.

So it's great to just get FaceTime with those guys, catch up, get some of the key questions answered that maybe I was missing. And then Thursday starts the on-field workout. So I'm in Lucas Oil Stadium in the stands. We're watching drills. A few years ago, they experimented with the drills at night. Because if they can make money off of it, they're going to. And so make it a TV event and all that. Thankfully, they changed it.

So now it's back in the afternoons. I think it starts around three Eastern, which I think is a good starting time. It's an exhausting week. And so this way, you're working late, but still have time. If you need to go out afterwards, you can do that. If you need to go back and finish up, you can do that. you're not working, you're not at Lucas O'Oel Stadium until 2 in the morning, which is great. You know, try to work.

I think coaches and people hated that. I think people really dislike the night workouts and that's why they've shifted away from it. The only positive feedback I heard was, you know, you could sleep in if you wanted because there wasn't as much stuff in the mornings because everything started later. But there's a reason it only lasted one year. It just, you know, I understand why they experimented with it. But I'm glad we've settled on this kind of. afternoon time and Saturday, Sunday, I think, or a little bit earlier, you know, it's every week

try to fit in at least one, if not two steak dinners, try to hit up San Elmo, try to hit up, you know, these different places. But yeah, I mean, in a nutshell, that's the week. So just before we get into this, and the goal here is kind of to get things on people's radars for what they should be watching next week. And to do that, we're going to tap into what you're watching over the next week and what you're paying attention to. But before we dig into some of those specifics. I just want to take a quick second to lay out what this event is actually for in 2025. Before we started recording, I was talking to you guys about some staffs that I was trying to reach out to people, set up conversations like, oh yeah, we're not going this year. And that seems

to be more and more prevalent among these NFL teams. Obviously, the Rams are one of the first teams that their coaches just didn't go. They just didn't, were not a part of the combine. You know, you see that starting to trickle down to all of the McVeigh tree teams. You know, there's some of them that are just like, ah, we don't do this anymore. We didn't do it, we're not going to do it now. So as we've gotten to this place

where the process is a little bit more modernized, teams have more information outside of what they can get at the combine, if you're just trying to sum up, Dane, why teams still like this and what usage and utility this event still has, what would you say to people? Well, I think that, you know,

first we have to remember, like, what the purpose of the combine is, right? It's the whole purpose of why the combine was invented. was for the medicals. And this was back in early 80s a way to get all the players together in one neutral spot where, you know, instead of having every player go to each team facility for a medical evaluation, they have all, they have everybody in one spot and get it done. It's another reason why Indianapolis is the perfect city because it's one of the few places

that has access to enough medical equipment because you're doing 300 MRIs. You're doing so many different tests all within four-day period. So another reason why India, Indianapolis is the perfect site. But, I mean, that's why the combine was created in the first place. And then it's like, okay, well, while we're here, let's do these interviews. And I think that's the medicals and the interviews, the two most important parts of this combine. And the interview portion is, you know, it's a little bit like speed dating. There's an informal period and a formal period.

The formal period is each team has 45, 18-minute sit-down interviews to request. and each player gets a schedule that they're kind of escorted around Lucas Oil Stadium to each suite where the team is and that's where they have a chance to sit down with coaches and that's where I think the value is the most, especially if you are looking at a quarterback. You want to be able to meet with these guys in person. You want to be able to throw up on the whiteboard, you know, on a screen, watch his tape, say, what do you see here? What are you working through here?

And just, you know, there's so much preparation that comes. goes into that. Because again, these are 18-minute interviews. So you have to be able to understand, get to the point, know what you want to ask. So a lot of preparation goes into that. And then, you know, of course, there's the workouts and the testing. That's probably the sexiest part of the combine, you know, to the public. It's, you know, I think it's a little bit misunderstood because every player is a little bit different with how they test. And I think the overall, we have to look at the combine as one big cross-checking exercise. It's what you see at the combine match up with what the tape says.

And if you think a guy is a great athlete, you're not going to give him extra points at the combine for proving it. But if a player doesn't test well, or if maybe he tests better than expected, then you have to figure out the why. And so it's always helpful that we have the combine, the data from the combine, but then also just when you're watching the drills with your own eyes and you see it's one guy after another. You have repetition. You have an immediate comparison. You have an immediate frame of reference to see how a guy is moving speedwise, change a direction, that kind of thing. So that's just kind of a, yeah, the brief synopsis of why I think the combine still matters

here in 2025. And that's such good framing that it's like a cross-checking event because so much of what teams are doing from their perspective during the entire draft process is they're just trying to make the list of guys as short as possible, whether it's, When they first start with film, like, okay, that guy doesn't fit our system. This guy doesn't fit our system, whatever it is. And then you get to the medicals that's like, okay, this guy doesn't pass our check. This guy doesn't pass our check.

You get to the interviews. Okay, this guy doesn't pass our check. And so, Dane, when you do it, you end up with like 600 guys on your board. But teams realistically only end up with like 150 because they've just crossed so many guys off of their board based on medicals, film, all this other stuff. And so the combine is like the spot to check as many of those guys off as possible. So that's such a good point. No, and that's a great point because they've already been doing this. The last few weeks, teams have been, all the scouts have been back in the team facility building a preliminary board.

And that's where they cross off a lot of guys. I mean, I just, I was texting a guy the other day about a certain player. And, you know, he said, yeah, a solid player, but he's not on our board. I was, oh, okay. You know, like, it's just, it's whether it could be scheme related. It could be, there's so many different factors there. But, yeah, I mean, that's a great point. They've already go into this week, crossing out a lot of players.

And then the combine will let them do. that even a little bit more. How often are you surprised by what happens in Dataapolis, whether it's by some of the physical testing where guys is better or worse than you expected, or whether it's two or three weeks after the combine has ended and you start getting some of the feedback about interviews? I'm assuming that's where some of the surprises come, where maybe somebody comes off in a way that is a little bit unsuspecting for the teams when they start talking to guys. Is that where some of the blips maybe come up in the process, typically?

Yeah, for the most part But it's okay to have fun with this process too Like when Xavier Worthy ran that 40-yard dash last year If you didn't get excited about that Like watching that Then you know like what are we doing? Like it's we knew he was fast Okay, it wasn't a big surprise

But it's still okay to I think have fun with this And so like that was a good example of that But in terms of like actually Surprises changing what you think about where a player is going to be drafted. Yeah, I think most of that is the medical and the character stuff. And that's where things get a little murky.

And I think, we'll talk more about that later, but it's, you know, just today, texting with some scouts about some players, it's like, okay, well, I got to add this guy to my list now of guys that maybe not going to go as high as I thought because of there's this in his background or there's this and this. And it makes for a tough conversation

from the outside looking in, where teams have maybe a better feel for it as they leave the combat. All right, before we move on, we are going to take a quick break. Before we dig into the players, I want to share what Dane said to me about an hour ago as we were preparing for the show. He apologized for the amount of guys that he wanted to talk about as we go through these categories.

It was the best thing I've heard all week. The fact that you're so excited to dig into this, that you're actively apologizing before we start. As somebody who is tasked with hosting the show, that it's just music to my ears. excited about this. I might ramble just, you know, whistle or give me a code word or something and I'll shut up. But yeah, but we'll try to keep it as, because at the same time, I want to mention as many guys as possible. So people, I mean, people already have a good mix or a good idea who to

look at. But I also want to, you know, reserve the freaks for the freaks and the guys that have most of gain for the, you know, those types of guys. So we'll try to keep it as concise as possible. Let's start with the freaks of the freaks. I want to get ahead of, what the biggest storylines from the testing are going to be. The guys who are just going to absolutely blow this week away. And there's some subtleties and nuances between these categories as we dig into them. This is reserved for like the best of the vest. The Xavier worthy sort of moments that we could potentially be anticipating this year.

So, Dan, as you think about the guys who are going to own the combine, the ones we are going to be talking about, when you go on NFL.com or the athletic, what are the little headlines going to be in the carousel because so and so did X, Y, and Z. Where do you start that process with the 2025 class? I think we have to start with the edge rushers. This is going to be a freaky route. And I'm interested to see if Adul Carter, Penn State, the guy that might go number one overall,

first of all, does he test? And if he does, what that's going to look like, because, you know, at 250, 255, the 40 should be awesome, but I'm most interested in the 10-yard split. I think, you know, obviously that measures the get off how quickly he's out of the gate, because that's what jumps out the most when you watch Carter on film is just the burst. And so how does that look in the 10-yard split? For reference, Vaughn Miller was a 159.

Jared Verst last year was a 159, which is a great time for verse at 255 pounds. What is Carter going to look like? Is he going to be more like 155? Is he going to be closer to, is he to get close to 1,000? 1-50. So what does Abdul-Carter do the 10-year-s split? That'll be big. And then the freakiest of the group is probably going to be Texas A&M's Shamar Stewart, 6-5, 281 pounds. The 40's probably going to be ridiculous, maybe even four-fives, which would be nuts for a guy that size. I think Trayvon Walker was 451 at 272. So Stewart, 10 pounds heavier, if he's able to get close to that, it,

is crazy. The 10-year split with him should be pretty interesting. He's going to be, Stuart, like his numbers should look close to Abdul Carter

and some of these other guys, but he's 30 pounds heavier, which just kind of says how much of a freak he is. He's number nine on my top 100, despite never having more than one and a half sacks in a season. And so,

you know, the production might not be there, but the reason he's ranked so high is the traits are crazy. And you do see it on film. You know, he led the team in pressures this year, even though the sack number was low.

So Shemar Stewart should be one of the guys that we're talking a lot about. And then the two Georgia guys in the front seven, Jalen Walker, McKell Williams, they're going to be really impressive. The measurements for McHale, I think might be close to Tyree Wilson, 65, 265, the arms.

It might take two tape measures to really get the arms for McKell Williams, because they're nuts. It'll be over 35, maybe close to 36. You know, we've, we never actually got to see Tyree Wilson test, and he still went top 10. Williams, his body of work is inconsistent, like just in watching his tape. But if you grade to the flashes and you focus on the traits, this is why he might go in the top 10, or at least it will be considered in the top 10.

And so it'll be important for him for the freaky traits in the testing to match up with shows on tape. one more address or two Jordan Birch from Oregon he's a guy that he was banged up this year he had a back guy out of the senior bowl so I think it's been a little bit out of sight out of mind

not being talked about a ton but this guy can move and he's a fluid 290 pounds plays with juice plays with power I can't wait to see his movement skills in Indianapolis

he was number 51 on my top 100 so I think the buzz is really going to build and then the guy who I might think might win the week. He might be the guy that comes away from this week as the winner is Jihad Campbell from Alabama. Linebacker, pass rusher can do a little bit of everything in the front seven, sunburst, speed for days. The dude's just different.

And I'm interested to see how close to Micah Parsons level testing does he get. And I know that's setting the bar high, and I don't think he'll get quite there, but how close does he get? Because when you scout him strictly as just an offball guy, it's a little complicated because the instincts aren't all the way yet. He's only been playing as a stacked off ball linebacker for about two years. And so there are times where you can see him, he's a little bit late to react to certain things. But when he does see it and he unlocks and goes, it's crazy. And so some of his best stuff is when he rushes the passer.

And so I wonder if we should be almost talking about him similar as Jalen Walker. a guy who, you know, is another linebacker, but he's at his best rushing the passer. So when, again, when you scout him as strictly a linebacker, you know, you can poke holes in his game. But when you look at him as a pass rusher, that's where the optimism just skyrocketed. So I think another guy, the buzz is going to pick up

and build and build for Campbell throughout the week. I'm so glad you smiling at the Jehye Campbell thing, Derek. So I, for whatever reason, maybe just because like everybody in Dane's top 20s seems to be a front seven guy. That's kind of where I started my research on this class. And Campbell was maybe the fourth or fifth guy I watched. And I just, when I heard former defensive end who runs the way that he does and can move backwards the way that he does, and sometimes the instincts and coverage are a little bit up and down, but just like the pure ability to move

backwards and laterally I thought was insane. I was like, I would do anything to draft this player in the top 15. And so I'm so glad that Dane brought this guy up because I think in terms of like raw potential for his position. He is one of the most fascinating players in this entire class to me. Dane, on a broad level, would you say that just the quality of the testing continues to increase year over year? Like, guys are getting bigger, faster, stronger. And if that is the case, how do you contextualize that?

Like, are we trying to compare guys now compared to what guys were testing 10 years ago? Is that useful as we're trying to, like, place what sort of prospects and athletes they are? How do you sort through all of that at this point? Teams are asking themselves those same questions because, you know, the training and the science of it all has improved so much. I mean, there's so many experienced and just knowledgeable trainers who understand how to, I don't want to cheat the system, because that's not really what you're doing. You're just, you're getting these guys peak performance for these specific drills. And, you know, you could argue that it's, you know, sometimes it does interfere because, okay, Ohio's,

state, for example. They played to the national championship game. They have 15 guys this year. They're going to get drafted. Several of those guys pulled out of the Senior Bowl because they were so far, they were two months behind, or no, like six weeks behind where a lot of other prospects have been in terms of training for the combine. So instead of going to the Senior Bowl, they have to go immediately go to their training facility and start training on the 40-yard dash, training with these different drills. in order to get enough time to be ready for the combat in Indianapolis, which is a bummer because you want to see these guys in pads in a football setting like the senior bowl.

But it's just how the calendar is working right now. So, but back, you know, your original point about how do you contextualize the numbers, the data now compared to previous years, I mean, you just, when you compare it to previous years, you just can't go back very far. I mean, you have to, the last three, four years is when you, you really focus, which isn't a great frame of reference, but that's just the way things are with the way training has improved so much over the years. And I feel like, too, on a related note, Dane, fewer players seem to be doing certain drills now compared to eight years ago. So, like,

one, how do you contextualize that? And then, two, is there a particular position where you feel like that complicates the most our ability to view what these guys are athletes? Like, you know, a lot of edge guys don't do the three cone anymore. Like, or like corners maybe not running certain drills. Like which position do you think it complicates the most from our point of view? Yeah, and that's a great point. When they did the drills at night three, four years ago, none of the running backs did any of the three cone or short shuttle.

Like they just as a whole decided we're not doing it because of the, you know, you're making us sit around all day and then do everything at nine o'clock at night. And, you know, they kind of push back on that. a little bit. I would say because certain drills are more important for certain positions.

Like, you know, a corner, for example, if a guy is not running a 40-yard dash, that's like, okay, what's going on here?

You know, why are you skipping the 40- blinking lights? Yes, very much so. It's a stopwatch position and, you know, well,

there's some corners in this draft where I'm worried they might be skipping the 40-yard dash. And if they do, okay, I mean, that kind of tells you something.

So, yeah, it's, for certain positions, you know, you want to see them do everything for other positions. Maybe it's okay if they skip a drill here or there. But it's something that I think is never going to go away because some guys, they do enough training with the agents and, you know, they know what these guys are going to do time-wise. So if the times aren't good enough in training, they're not going to let them do it at the

combine. And so that does complicate things. But maybe it tells you a little bit something, too, about if a guy does skip a drill, okay, well, maybe they're doing it for a specific reason. When you look back, Dan, it doesn't even have to be the last 15 years, but the last like several years. Who were the workouts when you guys were sitting up there in the stands that you could kind of feel like the murmur come over the crowd? Not just one individual thing, but like over the course of the day. I'm sure there are a couple guys that stick out just overall the totality of what they did.

I mean, a lot of Georgia guys because, you know, the one year with Trayvon Walker and then Devonte, it was crazy. It just so happened that Jordan Davis was crazier. Jordan Davis was like a 477 in the 40 at his size. It was crazy. Nolan Smith, the next year,

was unbelievable. His 10-yard split, I think it was 147, I believe. So, I mean, anything under a 1-6 is unbelievable for a 10-yard split. I mean, Von Miller was 159. To get under 1-5 is nuts. And Nolan Smith,

the way he was moving, the 4-3 speed, the 10-yard split, at that size. I mean, he is undersized for a pass rusher. He weighed in maybe 238 at the combine. But when you have that type of juice, I couldn't believe he fell as far as he did in the first round, fell in right into the lap of the Eagles. And, of course, we saw how that manifested itself on the field this year, especially down the stretch in the playoffs. I mean, when you have that type of juice, you're going to be able to get to the quarterback.

And, you know, that was something that. that those Georgia defenders, those two years, really stood out. It's funny over the course of this conversation, the two things that have stuck out to me are observations about current NFL players. Like you saying that Jared Versa weighs 255, I was like, Jared Versa only weighs 255? When you think about the way that he plays and just the play style, he feels like a 270 player.

And then when you think about Nolan Smith, there's moments that stand out to Nolan Smith, about Nolan Smith to me from this season, obviously the juice is a pass-rusher down, the stretcher is incredible. But I'm thinking about those plays where he's taking on pullers in multiple playoff games at 2.30. And so if I'm trying to connect the dots here, I guess I'm just realizing that my favorite NFL players are edge guys who play like they're 25 pounds heavier than they are. Yeah.

Verse was 254 at the combine last year. So if you would ask me, how much is Jared Verst way? My answer would have been immediately been 270. I would have immediately been like, what does Zadarius Smith way? It's probably about that. Right. That's how he plays. It's so much power.

And it comes from his explosiveness. I mean, it is fun to watch. And, yeah, he, because verse actually had a better 10-yard split than Dallas Turner did, than a lot of those guys that we thought were going to be freaky testers. Verse helped himself for sure with that, with 10-yard split in a 40-yard dash. So let's get back to what we're watching next week. Those are the guys who are going to own it. Those are the guys that are at the top of the draft that are likely in your top 10, top 15.

I want to go like a tier down from there and just talk about guys who are going to turn heads a little bit. Players who maybe aren't household names to, even the people who are following the draft discourse, that maybe are going to surprise some people with what they're going to do testing-wise in Indianapolis. Where would you start backward? Let's start with South Carolina Safety, Nick Emond Worry,

who, I mean, he's in my top 30. So it's not like this is not a new name. But I don't think this is important to point out, though, your top 30, your top 15, your top 20, you know for the most part how these guys are going to test. And so the physical traits are baked into what you're doing. And I think for some people, there are going to be players that are higher than they might seem based on their production. But you already have some of the picture filled in. The testing is going to fill in some of the picture for these people who are not as far along in the process. So even if you have them in the top 30, I still think it's worth pointing.

out why you do and maybe how we're going to close the gap between the perception from some of these guys and what they actually are as prospects. No doubt. And yeah, exactly. Shmar Stewart being the perfect example of that, being a top 10 player on the board, even though the stats don't back that up. Even Worry is a guy that is a little streaky in his play, but he's 6-3. He's listed.

We don't have the verified measurements on him, so it'll be interesting to get those, but he's listed at 6-3, 227 pounds. So a big safety. On tape, he is crazy. Derek, Derek's face. Yeah, basically. So he's, his, I'm told, he might get into the four-threes with his 40-yard dash. And when you see his range, you see that he's a fast guy.

His, you know, Bruce Feldman does his Freaks article every year. In the summer, his jumps were 11-4 in the broad, 42-inch in the vert. Both of those might be the best we see this year. And if you're running- Byron's shit. Yeah, exactly. And if you're running in anything close to the four-th-threes at that size, yeah, that's going to give you a little bit of boost.

So Nick Emond Worry, he's on the short list with Jihad Campbell and Shamar Stewart and these other guys of players who might really kind of put a charge into the buzz around them as prospects. So he's definitely one. You know, let's talk about who's going to run the fastest 40. You know, that's something that's always interesting. Last year, Xavier Worthy, coming in, had to be one of the favorites. This year, I think the favorite is Georgia's wide receiver, Aryan Smith.

Six foot, 175 pounds. He was a high-level track athlete in high school. He was nationally ranked when the sprints and the jumps, his long jump in high school, he won a state championship, the best high school long jump in this draft class, just ahead of Malachi starts, who's the higher rated Georgia player. but with Smith, he also ran track at Georgia. And in the 100 meters, he had a 10-10,

which anything in the tens, anything under 11 seconds in the 100 meters is just blazing. And to have a 10-10 is crazy. That easily translates to a 4-3, maybe even lower. So Arian Smith, very interested to see what he does in the 40. Darien Porter from Iowa State is a really fascinating prospect. He bounced between receiver and corner at, Iowa State, he's been in the last six years.

He's a six-year senior. He struggled to find a role until this last year at Corner, six, two and a half, 197 pounds, 33 and a quarter inch arms, and he's going to fly. In high school, he set the Iowa all-time record in the 400 meters. He was his best 100 meters was 10-6-8 at the Senior Bowl. So Zebra technology has been tracking player speed the last eight years. this year, Porter clocked a 22.17 mile per hour. That's the second fastest that they've tracked over the last eight years at that event.

Tariq Wollin was the only guy that was faster, and he ran a 4-26 in the 40-yard dash. So Darien Porter, I think he's going to be really fascinating. The special teams profile will help him a lot during the evaluation just because he's, he blocked four puns. He had a field goal block this past year. I know multiple teams that have him have third round grades on him. So having a strong combine is just really going to back that up and reinforce why, even though there are some red flags on his report, why he should be in that top 100 conversation.

I'm curious with Emin Wari how we parse that sort of athleticism at safety in particular. Because I do think it's, along with linebacker, it's probably the position where I don't want to say athleticism matters the least, but if you look at the guys who ultimately become successful, it's not necessarily as correlated as it would be with some of these other positions, where if you lined up the best defense events and pass rushers in the league, most of them are the best athletes, right? You go back and look at Miles Garrett's testing and some of the other guys. At safety, that's just not normally the case. So if you're looking at somebody like Eminwari, what do you think the conversation is with the team that maybe

is enticed what he's able to do physically, but that is the biggest selling point? I think it's making sure you have a clear role for him in your defense. You know, what, like, do you want to use him? I feel like we have this conversation a lot with all these safeties, right? All the safeties that are little, little freaky, a little different, Kyle Hamilton, and like all these guys are just a little bit different than your prototypical safety. And Emin Wari is going to fit in that bucket because of just how much of a freakie is, size, speed, strength.

Personally, I like him when he is closer to the football. I want him where he can blitz, he can be in a racer versus a run, he can man up with tight ends, backs and coverage. You know, that's where I like him the mess the best as opposed to a single high post safety. That's where I think some of the inconsistent reeds and anticipation come in. But, you know, you're going to bet on that athleticism all day and then talk your defensive coordinator into making sure you have a spot for him. So you feel like fluidity is not an issue. It's more like the instincts and the mental stuff more than it is, like his ability to move in space.

So you feel like he can play man coverage on guys in space like that. There are times where I think some body tightness shows up just in terms of, because he flies to the football. And so there are times where maybe his angle is a little bit off. And he's a little stiff trying to redirect and course correct that angle. And so you see that a little bit. but so I wouldn't say that he's super fluid but I wouldn't say he's a total stiff

either he's kind of somewhere in the middle. Yeah, I just, I mean this is like 20 years ago now, but I just think about like Taylor Mays. Right. Right. That was what I thought of. These 230 pounds safeties who run really fast

in a straight line, but if you ask them to change direction, then things get a little bit dicey. Yeah, I think he's better than that. Like he is not a guy that, you know, we need to say, we need to hide him or we need to stick him at lineback or anything like that.

Like he can, he can cover. a lot of ground quickly. He just might not be as fluid as maybe some of your top safeties in comparison purposes. He sounds more like a Jeremy Chin or something like that, where it's like you can man him up on these guys, get him close to the line scrimmage,

don't know how much you want him playing like 14 yards deep. I'm curious, Dan, as you look at just the on-field drill specifically, not even stuff that's timed, but like the real sicko shit that we're talking about here, like how guys are moving in all, offensive line drills, things like that. What are the on-field test that you feel like matter the most for people in a scouting position that are just watching how guys are actually moving when they're being put in these situations?

And like we've talked about, the combine is one big cross-checking exercise. So I think the main thing during these drills is just making sure that the movements match what you see on tape. So, you know, a great example, the offensive and defensive linemen, they go through the wave drill. the player starts on the ground, face first. They have to pop up, show their changing direction. The coach is going to kind of point the ball in the direction they want them to move. And you have to be sudden. You have to quickly, you know, transfer your weight.

It shows how loose you are. It also shows endurance. You know, there are a lot of guys that are huffing and puffing by the time. And this is only a, I don't know, eight second, nine second, ten second type of drill. But you're moving so fast and you're changing direction so quickly that a lot of guys, they get those heavy legs and they finish slow. And so that's something that scouts look for too. Are they stiff?

Are they slipping all over the place when they're trying to redirect? Watching, you know, Byron Murphy, good example last year from Texas, first round pick of the Seahawks. Watching him go through that drill last year was just like, oh yeah, okay, this guy is something different. I mean, the way he was moving was silly for receivers. You think of the gauntlet. that is such a great drill to watch.

The body control, because you have to stay on that straight line. Do they use their body to finish? Do they trust their hands? One of the main things I look for is do they slow at the catch point. Some guys, they start full speed, but then they slow down so they can try and frame the ball. Speed back up and then slow down, try to cut, you know, just to want to make sure they don't drop the ball. But scouts, they want to see full speed the entire way. I remember Zay Flowers was one of those guys.

it just crushed it a couple years ago. Full speed the entire way, start to finish. There's no weaving, strong hands. Zay was, in retrospect, it was like, man, kicking myself for not having him higher because not just that drill specifically, but everything that he put together was just phenomenal. So again, you're looking for the workouts to match the tape, both as athletes, as movers, but then also the position specific stuff too with, you know, do they trust their hands? that type of thing.

So, you know, it's another thing that I pay attention to just being there in the stadium in the stands, you know, which players are the leaders of the group? You know, which ones, because all these guys are alpha athletes, right? So which ones are the top competitors who are elevating the levels of everybody around them? And it's not just who's the loudest, but maybe, you know, who's working together with other guys, who's following directions, who's, you know, there's a lot of different tidbits like that that maybe we don't necessarily.

get on TV. The Sey Flowers thing makes me so happy because I remember that summer at training camp, that was the one guy when I was talking to coaches, GMs, everything about the draft process. I was like, am I insane or is that guy really good? And I remember one team that picked right after that. And it was like we were heartbroken. Like I wanted him so bad. And I was like, God, that makes me feel so much better.

Derek hates Seaflowers. So this is like an ongoing, like, battle that we have on this show. It's like a battle of, um, just like your. particular things that you like at certain skill sets. I love big receiver catch the football. Safe Flowers is not big receiver catch the football. So I struggle with him at times. No, I'm with you. I get it. Yeah, I was the same way. Was that why you weren't quite as high on him as usually I don't go for receivers that are undersized and that I still, I mean, he was like, I don't know, 30 on my board or something like that. Like I didn't have him, you know, too low. But in retrospect,

you know, it's like, okay, this is where I need to continue getting better. Uh, about certain guys just outplay the measurables. We're just surrounded by, I'm surrounded by sizes on this show. It's been the case since I started doing the show. Every single one of you guys is prejudiced against small receivers, and I feel like I'm having to, like, stand on the table for the little guy over here. No, give me the Drake London's, the T. Higgins.

I'll pay T. Higgins $30 million if the Bengals won't do it. One more guy I want to mention for guys that I think could break out with their testing. on the offensive line, Charles Grant from William and Mary. A little bit of a late bloomer because he was not a football guy growing up, didn't really start until his junior year in high school. He was like 240 pounds when he got to William and Mary. And he's a little bit of a project, but man, he moves well. His 10-yard split, his agility stuff should be really impressive.

He wasn't able to do the senior bowl because of a late-season injury. And so I think that's kind of kept maybe people have been a little bit quiet on him. But I think there'll be some buzz picking up after the way the people see him move in Indianapolis. And then I actually wanted to ask you about one more guy who might make a name for themselves. And I know he's already top 50 on your board. But Carson Swessinger, the UCLA linebacker, how fast can he run this week? Because he seems when I popped on the tape, it was like three places. This dude could roll.

I mean, give me a guy with instincts and. speed and that's that's a great foundation for a linebacker um yeah he is one of my five favorite players in the draft i mean he just the way he moves is crazy and he's a walk-on like he this is his first year as a starter uh he he literally has 10 starts to his name uh but in nine of nine of those starts he has double-digit tackles it is crazy how quickly he keys diagnosis goes and he plays so fast he'll make plays 40 yards down the field um it's he's a lot of fun to watch so i think I don't know, and maybe I should have him higher. It's just a matter of, okay, because he's a little bit light.

That's what you, that's the knock on him is, you know, how is he going to be taking on contact? And then how early do you take, you know, an offball linebacker like that, who's a little bit light taking on contact? And, you know, it doesn't have maybe the best resume in terms of we've been doing it for a long time. But, yeah, I mean, he's, he's a top 50 pick all day. I'm not sure what the comp is. You know, I don't think

I don't, I haven't come up with the true apples to apples comp that I love. But yeah, he's a, he's a really good player who should run, I mean, under 465 somewhere. He seemed to me very like Dion Jones-ish where it's like, I don't know how well he takes on blocks, but the speed, the instincts,

some of his coverage ability is just like insane. And if you, obviously Dion Jones only had like a two, three-year peak. But if you can get that peak for longer, then that's absolutely worth the top 50 pick. Yeah. This is surprising to me, Derek, because typically you are, you don't like these smaller, undersized linebackers who aren't thumpers. So the idea that you're enamored with this guy is kind of shocking to me.

I just, I don't know, there was something about it where he triggers, like Dane said, he triggers so fast and the speed is so jarring that it was like, all right, even if I don't love the archetype, he is so good outside of it that I just, I kind of just threw my hands up. I was like, all right, he's, I'm in. He is just a tractor beam to the football. The tackle production is crazy with him. Yeah, he put himself in the top 50 mix this year, no doubt. The idea that you're just going to be trashing Terrell Bernard all year because he's this undersized linebacker.

And now this guy's like the apple of your eye. Just what a hypocrite you are over here. This UCLA linebacker has already become like the prize of the football nerd online community. Soak was talking about him. I can just see the glee and the glint in both of your eyes already. I feel like this is going to be one of the darlings of this cycle. All right, before we move on, we're going to take one more quick break. All right, let's get into the one last thing I wanted to talk about here.

This is a big bucket on purpose because I think that I want to be able to slot in a few different big picture questions with this. Dan, I wanted to just ask you about the guys you feel like have the most at stake in Indianapolis this year. And this is mostly going to be rooted in the stuff we were talking about the beginning, guys that have a lot to. gain through the interviews, guys that have lots of gain or lose based on the medical testing. So let's start with the quarterbacks here because obviously the intangible aspects of this are going to be really important. As you look at this year's quarterback group and you think about who has the most to gain or lose from their experience in Indianapolis, where would you start that? I mean, you've got to start at the top with the top two guys, right? Cam Ward,

Shador Sanders, two guys that are, you know, have a chance to be top 10 picks but are not viewed as for example like we've talked about if they were in last year's draft they go anywhere from quarterback four to quarterback seven you know it's just they're not viewed as guys that are going to get you super excited but

there's at least you can see a path where they're going to be a long term NFL starters and so how does the combine just change the narrative around these two guys if at all based off of the interviews based off of what they do on the field if they

throw. Shador Sanders, for example, okay, meeting with teams, how do those interviews go? When they press them on certain things, how does that go? The interview process is going to be huge for Shador, just meeting with offensive coordinators,

meeting with head coaches, and then Cam Ward as well, just making sure that he has the leadership voice that you want, just getting, it's kind of just a check-in about where he is in his development in terms of reading coverages and understanding, what type of verbiage were they using in their playbook and just trying to get a better sense for who they are. You know, what's their mental capacity?

How do they learn? All these different things. A lot of these things, the area scouts have already kind of communicated with the team, the GM. So they have kind of a head start going into this. But how they will answer some of these questions is going to be a huge thing. And also just the on-field stuff, like with Shador, he's. if he throws, he will be throwing right next to Tyler Shuck from Louisville, who has a monster arm, a legit power arm where Sanders does not. He has an average arm at best.

And so how does that look one after the other? Like I said, when these guys are going through these drills one after another, it really helps with just the context and a frame of reference. And so what does that do when, you know, the ball is not exploding off Shador's hand? because it doesn't. I mean, teams already know that, but how will it look actually on the field at Lucas Oil Stadium if, again, if Shador decides to throw? That's good to know because one of the things I was going to ask you is,

does it matter if these guys throw anymore? Do teams care, are they really taking anything away from the on-field throwing workouts? So, like, where do you sit with that just as like a larger question? Yes and no. I mean, I think that, like, I don't think people remember, you know, did Brace Young throw? did C.J. Stroud throw? Like, if you asked the...

Well, I remember that because people were enamored with how C.J. Strow threw at the combine. Yeah. But I think the general football fan, I don't think they'd be able to tell you that, oh, yeah, Breachung didn't. And, oh, yeah, C.J. Strout did. Like, I don't think that maybe that it's stuck with the general football fan.

I think that's right. But when it comes to NFL teams, they want to see everybody throw, obviously. But if they don't, I don't think it's as much of a red flag as maybe some people will make it out to be. You know, you might press them on it a little bit and, you know, ask them why you don't want to compete, that kind of thing. But, yeah, it'll be interesting with both these guys.

I don't, sometimes it comes down to do they feel like they have leverage where they don't need to throw? And I don't think either of these guys necessarily have the leverage to make that decision. I'm, if, you know, if I'm one of them, I'm looking to go out and prove why, hey, this is why I should be a top 10 pick. Shraduris Sanders is not a lot top 10 pick in this draft. Yeah, he absolutely could go third to the Giants, six to the Raiders, but in no way is he a lock to go that high.

And it's funny because if, you know, Anthony Richardson was a top four pick when we look back at this in history. But if the Colts don't take him at four, who knows? He could have been a 22nd pick. You know, it just when you don't, you just don't know how that's going to play out. If Shadour doesn't go six, who knows where he might fall? He might fall to 18 in Seattle or, you know, Pittsburgh, or who knows? And so if I'm one of these guys, I want as many bites at the apple to show why I belong to be a top five pick, top six pit.

Derek, I'm going to ask you a very simple question. I don't want to dig into this right now, but I just want to take your temperature a little bit. Have you watched the quarterbacks yet? I watched them over the summer, and then I watched them a little bit early in the season. But I do have like a pretty clear where I stand on QV1. And I think Cam Ward's better. I think he's just more talented. I like the way that he plays a little bit more.

I will typically default to guy who plays a little bit like an untamed horse. We need to walk him back a little bit. And that's a little bit more Cam Ward. But the other thing I do think that's fascinating about Ward. And this is kind of what attracted me to Lamar Jackson as a prospect. Cam Ward, like, wasn't really a throwing quarterback in high school. And then by the time he gets to Incarnate Word, he obviously levels up there and is able to go to Washington State, levels up again, is able to go to Miami, and then plays really

well at Miami. So there's something to me that is very fascinating about a guy who consistently gets better. So even if he has wards, it speaks to me the idea of like, okay, he can, he's obviously doing something right to continue getting better opportunities. And then he's already shown that he can continue to get better. And that's an underrated skill about playing in the NFL is that you have to consistently evolve. That's a little morsel, because we are going to have that conversation in earnest here in about, I don't know, a month, a month and a half. So I'm going to table that for now. So, Dan, other than the quarterbacks, I'm curious who in your mind you think,

has the most to lose or gain in Indy this week based on the medicals and the interviews. And this might be the most crowded category just because, you know, first for different reasons. For example, Will Campbell, LSU offensive tackle. I know it sounds trivial, but, you know, talking about eighths of an inch and all of that, the fact is it matters. And for Will Campbell, when he stretches out that arm from shoulder to fingertip, he is hoping that it's going to show at least 33 inches for the arm length. And, you know, it's, we can have the debate about whether arm length, how much it matters and all of that.

But the fact is, teams have thresholds for offensive tackles and arm length. Ideally, they want 34, 35 inch arms. But 33 is passable, where 32 and three quarters, maybe that's not going to work. So for Will Campbell, it's, and I know teams want to keep Will Campbell at tackle. Okay, this isn't like a situation. I think they knew early on Peter Scoronsky was going to be a guard. For most teams, Peter Scoronsky was a guard on their board. Will Campbell, I checked with 10 teams over the last few

weeks, they all have Will Campbell on the board as a tackle. And so they'd like to keep them there. Will that change after the combine? We'll have to see. I mean, the tape says he can do it. In the last 30 games as an SEC left tackle, he gave up two sacks. So, yeah,

you wish he had 34, 35 inch arms. He doesn't. It's closer to 33. how close? We'll see. I mean, Rishon Slater at exactly 33-inch arms. Penae Soule is 33 and a quarter. So, again, obviously you want longer arms. When you're scouting tackles, though, it should be about the feet. It should be about the hand timing.

And I think that's where Campbell is, that's why I think he's being fine at tackle because he has the feet. He has the timing. He has the torque and the power. So, you know, we'll see how the arm length plays out, but hopefully it's that 33 number where teams are going to agonize about, okay, do we have to move him or not? Slater was at 33. Caleb McGarry was just under 33.

I'm just looking at guys who played tackle for extended periods of time around that range. Alaric Jackson was 32 and a half. Obviously, he wasn't somebody that was drafted high, but it became a long-term starter at tackle. A lot of the other guys were talking about here that were classified as offensive tackles at the Combine that were around that number ultimately did shift inside to guard.

I'm looking at Sam Cosmi. I'm looking at Alex Khabi. Will Fry's, even Jordan Morgan, who potentially could play tackle later, was a guard as a rookie. So that obviously is the line. And there are other guys that I think if you look at it, they played tackle, but ultimately struggled because of that length, like Ty Sambriolo is in this list where he had 33-inch arms. I think length ended up becoming sort of an issue for him. So it may seem trivial, but there is a reason that that threshold exists because there

just aren't that many guys who sit under it who have been long-term starters at tackle. it will influence how early he is drafted because if you have to move him to guard some teams just aren't going to draft an interior offensive lineman as high as they would draft a tackle right or wrong that's just how it is and so specifically i'm looking at the patriots of four if they don't get the tackle they want in free agency uh or even if they do and they want to double up and they want to just overload on the offensive line which is not the worst strategy will campbell will be in the mix at number four as long as they feel confident that he is a tackle.

And that's where the combine will kind of flush out some of those ideas. So that'll be big for him. Jedi Baron, the Texas defensive back, he's right around 511-190.5.1.90. The size is average. Scouts are worried about the length. He might come in under 30-inch arms. And that's another threshold.

When you're talking about DBs, a lot of teams look at anything shorter than 30-3. two, they're out. So anything under 30 is going to be a problem. And, you know, the speed is, we'll see what the speed is too. That'll be kind of a question mark. He doesn't play like a four-three athlete. If he gets anywhere in the four-fours, I think that'll be great time for him. If he's in the four-fives, again, that's where you start talking about, all right, where do we feel comfortable with him? He's just, he's an easy player to like on film. He has the versatility that you love, plays the nickel, played outside corner. But if he is under 30-age arms,

if he runs a 4-5-1, then all of a sudden, teams you're going to be like, all right, well, we don't love him as an outside corner. He might be a nickel only. And, you know,

you start to poke holes in him, and all of a sudden, he's available in the mid-second round like a Brian branch. And so, ideally you hope that it turns out like that, but a big combine would be huge for Jedi Baron.

We got to talk about... I'm at front with a length of the... For corners, guys like Trent McDuffie were just under 30 inches. Roger McCruery had very famously short arms and again, both of those guys ultimately moved to the slot early

on or tested crazy in other areas. McDuffie was a 4-3 guy and so that, you know, he kind of his saving grace and yeah, it is, and every team looks at a little bit differently. With Barron, you know, he has a lot of the stuff that you want,

a lot of make it stuff. But with it, when teams have strict size thresholds, they stay true to that. So I think it's going to be really interesting with Barron in particular. At receiver, this is such an interesting wide receiver group because we don't have that Marvin Harris Jr., Malik Neighbors, guys at the top, but we're still going to have

four or five receivers that probably go in the first round, but how early do they go? And the Combine could help determine that. Ted McMillan from Arizona over under 453 for his 40-yard dash. You know, what is he? Because that's not, vertical speed is not really his, his, his, his, his, he, he, he, he, he, the strength to his game. I mean, he is a, he's slender, he wins jump balls. He's, he's like a Gumbyish version of T. Higgins.

That's how he plays, how he wins. But, you know, T. Higgins, he did not run well at all. So can McMillan at least get closer to a four or five-o, that type of time? Luther Burton from Missouri, Emeka, Buka, and then Golden from Texas. So can those other three guys, can they test well to really cement themselves? as, hey, we're first round players. If you need help a receiver, you know, we can be those guys for you.

So the receivers, I think, more than usual, I mean, Marvin Harrison, Junior, David, work out last year because he knew he didn't have to. And I guess also this is a good time to talk about Travis Hunter. Do we have, you know, we've gone this long without talking about the player who might go number one overall.

Will he work out in Indianapolis? He's listed as a corner on the Combine Invite list, which not a big, people are really overreacting to that who cares I mean teams are going to request

that he works out at receiver as well he will probably more than be more than happy to do that he wants to play both ways but it'll be interesting

with Travis Hunter does he work out does he feel like he needs to and then also just the interviews you know when teams really push him on

okay offense or defense and you can't say both where do you want to play you know how does that play into how teams

plan to use him, the teams at the top of the draft that potentially draft him. So Travis Hunter is going to be a really interesting one this week. Are there other skill position guys you're curious about whether they're running backs, tight ends, guys, you just want to see cross certain thresholds that maybe you just have a slight hesitation about or about. Again, you want to fill in the picture a little bit. Yeah, no doubt. I think Cam Scataboo at running back, not only a fun name to say, he's a fun guy to watch,

Arizona State, he's not fast. He's not going to run a 4-3-4. Can he get under a 457, I think, is kind of maybe the benchmark for him. So even though the 40 might not look great, it might be okay. How do the other drills look? The short area stuff,

he catches the ball really well, so I think that'll show up. Camp Scataboo, I think, is going to have a, this will be a big opportunity for him. Quinshawn Judkins from Ohio State. You know, Trevion Henderson is more of the speedback from Ohio State where Judkins is more the power guy, but can Judkins go out there and roll out a 4-4 in the 40-yard dash?

He'll really help himself if you can do that. Tess Johnson. Quinshot Jenkins is an amazing name. It is. That is an incredible name. And he plays, when you picture a guy named Quinn Sean Judkins, he plays like that. I mean, he will run guys over.

He is a, he's an attitude type of back. And I think that shows in his play. At receiver, so we talked earlier about undersized guys and what to do with them. And another example of that where you try to learn, take Dell, who I liked, but I didn't love because, again, the size. Tess Johnson is kind of in that similar bucket where he is literally 155 pounds. and it's like, okay, what do you, like, he gets open and he's, he has speed, but where, what do you do with the guy like that? And so for him, why I mentioned him for like the most at stake, he better test well. Because if you're going to draft 155 pound receiver, you better have the four three to go with it.

You better have these other numbers in the testing. You know, he doesn't play great through contact, but if guys can't cover him, if he gets open, whatever he wants, then maybe it doesn't matter as much. So, and it's funny, you think about Tank Dell being a smaller guy. He was 10 pounds heavier than Tedd's Johnson. So that'll be a really interesting one for him. On the defensive side, two DBs, I've got my eye on for kind of, you know, I want to see you prove it on the field.

Xavier Watts from Notre Dame, safety, who just the ball finds him. And at a certain point, you're like, all right, maybe this isn't a coincidence. I think 13 picks over the last two years. But why scouts have been kind of lukewarm on him is because average size, average speed. He's one of those guys that had to pull out of the senior bowl because Notre Dame playing in a national title game. So preparing for the combine, what does he look like? What does the speed look like? What are the verified measurements on him?

Because he has, I think he is in my 40s on my top 50. It's 46 right now. Yeah. So how he tests, how he looks, moving around out there, that's something that could really help him. Noel Williams from Cal, reminds you a lot of another Cal D.B. Cam Bynum when he was coming out. Cam Bynum was a really good player. He just couldn't run.

But we've seen him carve out a role as a safety with the Viking. So Noel Williams is kind of the same way where he is a junkyard dog. He's smart. He's tough. He's competitive. he's not a speed type of guy. And so what does that look like in the 40-yard dash? And what does that mean for his future at the NNFL?

So if he runs a 4-4-9, I think he goes top 100. But if he runs a 4-55, then all of a sudden it's like, all right, well, maybe we take a chance on him on day three. You know, I think teams will look at that a little bit differently. So plenty of names here of guys that maybe have something on the line with these drills. No Williams is 91. You're a big board right now. Just throwing that out there for context for people.

The last thing I want to wrap up with here, some of the intangible stuff. Well, I guess medical stuff is tangible, but it's not on field work. So some of the things they're going to happen behind closed doors, whether it's the interviews or the medical, are there guys that you feel like have particularly big weeks ahead of them in terms of what is there to gain or loose? Yeah. And this is, again, we started off this conversation by saying how important the combine was for these two reasons.

Find out more about the medicals, more about the character stuff. And the medicals are interesting because, you know, okay, so the area scout, he's been on campus, the school calls. He will communicate with the team doctor and the medical staff what the injury history is. So the doctor goes into these meetings, these examinations with a frame of reference about what we need to be looking at. And I was actually talking to a GM last week who said he gave his trainer. a list of 12 guys that he really likes and has a particularly want to know what's the medical of these guys. So it's just interesting how that works. It's a really rigorous process because say there's a player with a knee issue, he might, that knee might be looked at over 50 times

in a couple of days because there's 32 teams, 32 physicians, 32 trainers, junior doctors, junior staff, all these different people. So, you know, it's just, it's a rigorous process. And I think it's important to remember that almost like a scout, every doctor is a little bit different with how their, you know, their medical opinions. And then, you know, consequently, each team's different with how they respond to some of those injuries. Every team's different with how they look at risk with injuries. So a lot of teams use just a numbering system, you know, one through five. If a player has a one or a two, they're fine. Three is fine for most teams.

but if you have a four or five, more than likely you're off the board. And, you know, there are always some guys that pop up that are, okay, I didn't know that there was a knee issue. Or maybe there's arthritis. There's a degenerative problem with something with that player. A couple of the guys this year who have money to be gained or, you know, it just a lot hinges on those medical evaluations. First, Josh Simmons, Ohio State left tackle. Back in October, he was, I wrote about. this on the athletic, he was trending towards being OT1 in this draft.

His body control, his movements were just outstanding. Then in the Oregon game, non-contact Patelah injury. So had surgery. I'm told that he is on pace to be cleared to work out in April. He plans to have a private workout for NFL teams before the draft in April. But what, you know, as teams look at the knee at the combine, just to understand the rehab, the recovery, the prognosis, that'll be a big one because, again, this is a player who, if healthy, he's a top 10 player in this draft.

So he's going to have a discount sticker on him, but how much? You know, is he as simple as he's not going to get out of the top 15, top 20, or is it more late first round, or is there even a more bigger issue that maybe we don't know about? So that'll be big for Josh Simmons. Benjamin Morrison, the corner from Notre Dame, had a hip injury, a lateral tear. It's actually a second one. You had one in high school too, which I don't think a lot of people know about. And so how do you, like, I don't know, the idea of a coroner having two hip surgeries before he's 22 years old is just weird.

So how do teams, you know, what are the doctors, how do they convey that to NFL teams about it being a recurring issue or something they need to worry about long term? That would be something with Benjamin Morrison. They have to look at a couple of offense of linemen, Seth McLaughlin from Ohio State had an Achilles. injury. He was a center that was looking like a top 100 pick before his Achilles injury. That would be a big one. Tate Ratledge from Georgia, Cam Williams from Texas at a knee issue. And so teams are a little maybe worried about long term if there's any issues with the with the knee, especially for a guy that's 340 pounds. So Cam Williams is a guy that has first round talent, but he's young. We've had to factor in the medical stuff. So that'll be

big for for Cam Williams. Any interview stuff that you're looking at? So this is the conversation that's the toughest to have because of just I struggle with quote unquote character concerns because it's most of it's secondhand info and it's sometimes it's hard to contextualize what it means for a player's draft grade. In every situation is very different. Sometimes it's easy to understand the issue. Sometimes it's like, okay, well, he was arrested for this.

there's a criminal record for this. You know, there's suspended for this. Like sometimes we don't need a ton of context where we just, we know. But a lot of situations, we need the context of what's really going on. Some issues a lot more subtle. And so with this draft, there's three defensive linemen in the first round where, I'll just say teams are doing extra work to try and figure them out. Make sure they're comfortable with the person, with the background.

Not saying that, you know, they're off the board or anything like that, but they're doing extra work. One of those players has been in the news recently, James Pierce from Tennessee. The feedback from Scouts has been really mixed. And I think the bottom line is, one scout described it, teams just want to be convinced that they know who you are. They want to understand what makes you tick. And right now, that's a big question mark with Pierce.

And so that's something that felt like was an issue with the coaching staff at Tennessee, and teams just want to be convinced about who he is. So based on talent, he should go in the top 15 picks. But if he fell out of the second round, I don't think it'd be a huge shock to anybody. Mike Green from Marshall, who had a terrific senior bowl. I think he's 12th on my top 100.

The talent says he's a first round guy. There's an incident at Virginia that led to his dismissal. Something new that teams don't already know about. It's not like he's going to be grilled at the combine about this, but it's something that they're going to continue to talk to him about, make sure they're comfortable with his explanation and then just their own background work on it. And then Walter Nolan, defensive tackle, Ole Miss.

Some of the scout feedback, or the feedback from the team to scouts, was positive from Ole Miss, a lot more positive than what Texas A&M was saying. So, you know, I said he's still a guy that they haven't figured out 100% yet, but he did a nice job with the Senior Bowl, and I think there's some optimism there. one other defensive linemen that I think character has come up is LSU's Brayden Swinson,

who he was suspended for the first half of the Florida game, and he butted heads with some coaches. And so it's basically a maturity thing with him. Teams aren't scared off by any means, but every interview is going to be so important for him to make sure the best version of himself is being portrayed to NFL coaches and GMs, especially because he didn't play in a shrine bowl. He bailed at the last minute.

So he missed a whole week of interviews down there Dallas. So, you know, the combine is where teams are going to get a chance to really talk to him and figure out what makes him tick. And, you know, just talking about character stuff, I go back to last year, two guys that we talked about a lot with the quote-unquote character concerns were two examples of guys that went in different directions. Tavondres Sweat, the big defensive tackle from Texas. He was off boards, plenty of boards around the league. And, you know, we talked about that before the draft. Just where would he go? He would. He would, first round on, if you just watch his 20, 23 tape at Texas, first round pick.

But when you factor in everything else behind the scenes, he was close to 400 pounds at one point, party animal, DUI, all that kind of stuff. It's like, okay, well, he might fall to day three now. Titans still take him top 40. And based off his rookie year, he lived up to it. Now, I mean, obviously time will tell if that continues to do that. But they obviously felt comfortable with the person. They did a lot of work. They did a lot of additional work.

They had a whole crew to go down and see him and spend time. I mean, they really did their homework before they were willing to pull the trigger on that. And that is a great example of a guy that there's plenty of red flags, but why you do that extra homework to be comfortable with, you know, a guy that maybe, some guys are just young and make silly mistakes. It happens. On the flip side, the Bengals draft of wide receiver Jermaine Burton, mid-third round ahead of some

guys that had some receivers that had some really good rookie years and based on the talent you get it it's understandable but the character was a mess every team knew it and based off of how last year went sounds like it's still an issue with Cincinnati they called them out

publicly about it so you know hopefully he's able to kind of get it turned around but sometimes the character stuff it follows you the NFL I want people who listen to the show to go count how many names Dane mentioned over the last 75 minutes. Somebody will do it. Don't say that.

How many guys that were just were mentioned over the last 75 minutes? The goal of this was for you guys to go into the combine with a frame of reference about the guys to watch, what's going to matter, who has something at stake, who's going to own this week, what are the names that we're going to be coming out of Indianapolis talking about or thinking about, or the names you should be coming out of Indianapolis talking about or thinking about. And the fact that we just downloaded like 80 names directly to your draft hard drive, that was the goal of what we're trying to do today. And I think we accomplished that. And I was trying to keep it concise. Because, yeah, again, there's always more players to talk

about. We could go for another hour if we wanted to. But that's the, I think the headlines about, yeah, the guys that should show out, the freaks that should test like freaks. And, you know, I'm sure we'll get a few surprises too. Maybe some guys that we didn't expect to run as well as they did or, so we'll have plenty to talk about when we kind of wrap this all up after Indianapolis. Derek, is this your first show with Dan? Yes, yes it is.

After, which is funny because like I listened to every single show him and Nate did last year. So doing the show with him now is very fun. It's going to be fun the next few months. It's like sharing the court with LeBron for the first time. Right, exactly. Just watch him go to work. You can see the clips of like when Luca

got traded over there and he's just like in awe that he's now with LeBron James. It feels a little like that. I don't know how to respond to that. It's just, it's going to be fun. It's, it's the next two months are going to be fun and we kind of break these guys down more.

And, you know, you guys dive into more players, especially, I can't wait to hear what you guys say about the quarterbacks because it's such a weird quarterback year. You know, and the opinions are all over the place with NFL team. So I expect opinions to be kind of all over the place

when we talk about these guys next. I'm very excited to dig into that pool. And that will be happening here over the next month or so over the next two months or so, just to give you guys a sense of what the next week or so it was going to look like here in the Athletic Football Show. The show is going to be coming out on Friday. So you guys will listen to this, hopefully a Friday over the weekend. On Monday, we will have our next mailbag from our weekly mailbag series that we're doing this offseason, which I already appreciate the work you guys have put into those. I'm already enjoying doing them.

It took a week for it to be confirmed that was a good decision on my part. So thank you very, very much for proving me right. Then next week, like Dane mentioned, all of our writers are in Indianapolis for the combine. So we're going to take advantage of that. We did something a couple years ago that I actually really liked that we're going to bring back this year. We're going to talk to, I think it's nine different beat riders. So that's the goal over the course of that week, just to kind of dig into what we think are the most interesting teams of the offseason, right? So there are some teams that, like the Patriots, they have a top five pick and they have $120 million in cap space. Probably should talk about what their offseason is going to look like.

there are other teams that have potential pivot points on the board that we have to address. Teams like the Rams, teams like the Bengals. So that's what we're going to do next week. We're going to be chatting with our writers about just the off-season that we feel like have the most oomph to them. And then coming out of Combine Week, so what will be the Monday after the Combine wraps up, that's March 3rd, Dane will be back with us to wrap up what the Combine felt like. So that is what the next week to 10 days is going to look like on the athletic football show. After that, we're going to be full steam ahead into free agency preview and coverage

before we do a whole week of free agency content. So that is the rough outline for what is going to be coming your guys' way here over the next couple weeks. For now, that is all we got. Siss we really appreciate Dan's time, Derek's time. It's all we got for today. Appreciate you guys listening. We will talk to you on Monday.