The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - What’s next for the Raiders, Kyler Murray vs. Baker Mayfield and questions for the Seahawks’ offense with Lindsay Jones + a Kansas City Chiefs team visit with Nate Taylor

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

Robert Mays and Lindsay Jones discuss the latest with the Raiders and Jon Gruden’s resignation, including Mark Davis’ absence and what comes next with the Washington Football Team investigation. They also dive into Baker Mayfield vs. Kyler Murray, what’s at stake for the Dolphins and their questions for the Seahawks’ offense without Russell Wilson. Plus, is it time fo the Chiefs to hit the panic button? The Athletic’s Nate Taylor joins the show to talk about Kansas City’s 2-3 start, the defensive struggles and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Thursday, October 14th. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Our Chiefs writer at the Athletic Nate Taylor is going to be joining us a little bit later for our weekly team visit.

Kind of a different conversation with Nate about the Chiefs, a two and three Chiefs team that is very rarely headed in this direction. So great to get some context from Nate. Really appreciated his time. Before we get to that, though, I am pleased to welcome my good friend, Lizzie Jones. Lindsay, how you doing? I'm great, Robert. Looking forward to the show and to talking to Nate later. You guys know that AFC West Talk is my favorite thing in the world. Right up your alley,

right up your alley. So we're going to start today's show, the only place we can start today's show. And that is with the John Gruden resignation and the John Gruden news and everything that's kind of come down over the last few days. We had Vic and Tashon on the show earlier this week to really dig into more of the Raiders specific elements of this story, where the Raiders go from here, the pursuit of John Gruden, period, the leadership group there, kind of the vacuum of leadership there. If you want to hear more about the Raiders aspect of this, I would encourage you guys to go check out the show that we did earlier this week. I want to talk to you about the John Gruden specifics, but also kind of about the wider ranging implications of this. So just,

Lindsay, initially, your reaction when you saw the emails and that ultimately his resignation from being the head coach of the writers. Yeah, sure. I mean, I've tweeted a lot of my thoughts. I've had a lot of thoughts and feelings about it so you can make sure you go back and check my Twitter feed since Monday night. I was actually filling in as the Girl Scout troop leader on Monday night when the New York's Times story dropped. I'll say it was probably not the best timing to be an NFL reporter being out on a nature walk in the dark. But it was also kind of freeing to like. Or maybe the best time. Yeah, I know. One of our coworkers is like, you just got to fast forward right to the end of it. By the time Girl Scouts was over, he had resigned. But so, yeah, I mean, I have had a lot of kind of thoughts and personal feelings. And, you know, I think the initial feeling was frustration. Not surprise. I absolutely was not surprised. And that's not because I've known John Gruden to be a misogynist or a racist.

It's just because this is the culture of football. Probably other professional sports, I can only speak specifically to football. We hear guys talk like this in private when they think that people aren't, you know, when they don't have a camera on them. or they are not on the record. It's why we, you know, as a female leader in the sports NFL writer space, it's something we talk about a lot that this is how men behave in this kind of this world. It very much still is an old boy, you know, the old boys club. And that's where the frustration came from is that no matter, you know,

what sort of signs of progress we see when we see the NFL, you know, proudly talking about the advancement of female coaches, that they're, you know, there were first female coaches who won the, you know, Super Bowl last year that we're seeing women promoted in scouting, that they're talking about, they're finally acknowledging the words Black Lives Matter and they're talking about social justice as a positive and instead of a deterrent, that this is all kind of window dressing, that so many of the guys who are leaders and actual decision makers kind of talk and feel the way that John Gruden does. So that was where I think personally a lot of the frustration,

you know, for myself came from. I was frustrated in John Gruden's initial response on Friday when the first Wall Street Journal story came out where his kind of response was, I don't have a racial bone in my body. And then I was frustrated by the statement that he put out when he ultimately resigned. And he said he resigned because one, he didn't want to be as distraction and two, that he never meant to hurt anybody. Because the language that he used in emails dating back from 2011 all the way through 2018, the words that he used, if you don't understand why that is harmful language and why that does not, you know, that should disqualify you from running a team and being a leader of men in a diverse locker room, why you'd understand that that is

why that language is harmful. That part was just really, really frustrating to me. And it's just a sign that, you know, while you want, you want to give people space and grace and the ability to grow and evolve and change, you know, the way that they feel or they look at things, what they say in private really tells a lot about who somebody is. And, you know, I think that's just what's really frustrating. And it would be naive of us to think that it ends with Gruden, that he's the only guy left who thinks like this. And that, you know, I think that's one of the things that's just, you know, hard to swallow. You think there's, you think we're making progress. And, you know, ultimately, when this is a white man's league, this is how a lot of people think. I mean, not even

just John Gruden, but the other people in that email, you know, the CEO is Bruce. And it's the way that this group of people talked where there's a considerable consolidation of power, where there's a lot of power in those emails. And it really does speak to a, we are this group and everyone else is something else. And we can talk about these other people in this way because we are the ones at the top of this. And it does have that feel. And casually and comfortably sharing pornographic pictures and sharing, you know, pictures of the Washington cheerleaders topless. You know, all of those sorts of things are completely unacceptable. but they felt completely comfortable sharing that sort of information in that setting because,

ha, ha, ha, we're the old boys network and nobody is ever going to find out. And if they did, who cares? Because we have so much power. And, you know, ultimately it costs John Gruden his job. And, you know, and we talk about like the big picture. Okay, what's going on from a league-wide perspective here right now? John Gruden is certainly collateral damage and everything that's gone on with the Washington football team's investigation.

He still deserved to lose his job for what happened. And he has proven to be somebody that the rest of us didn't. We didn't know this stuff about John Gruden. And one of the other, I guess I would say the other frustrating things too. And maybe not necessarily productive is you and it's going to be happening. It's happening today. It's going to be happening the rest of the week, probably into the future. As you ask people like, did you know this about John Gruden?

And they'll say, no, he was great to me. Yeah, that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Ultimately, he said what he said. He said it repeatedly. He wrote it down. He sent it to NFL servers.

Yes, he was not coach. He was not officially employed by the NFL when he said it. But he was absolutely part of the NFL world. He was the most famous, most popular broadcaster at the time that he was saying those sorts of things about the commissioner of the NFL, the executive director of the NFLPA, about LGBT players in the NFL, about women working in the NFL. He had the biggest microphone that you can possibly have, and he was saying those sorts of things. And even saying things up until just before he was hired, apparently, by all the reports, as recently as 2017.

I mean, this is something where this person who did these things shortly before he was not only hired to be the head coach of the Raiders, but hired to be the face of the franchise. John Gruden is the biggest star on the Raiders. None of their players are. He is. And even every, no matter what way you cut this, this person was not fit to be the face of an NFL franchise, especially. in a league that has been so adamant and so purposeful about the messaging that they've tried to put forth about being more inclusive. That's as simple as it gets. It doesn't matter if it happened three years ago, four years ago, five years ago, if he was the head coach of a team then or not.

He is not fit to be the person who runs an NFL team in this day and age based on what we just saw. Yeah, absolutely not. And I hope that other head coaches around the league are thinking really hard about, you know, their authenticity and what they're saying to their players, what they're saying in public. And if that's matching what they're saying in private, I want to believe that this was the worst example out there. That's probably naive of me. But I hope there are some, you know, there's some big introspection going on around the league. I'm sure there are people who are panicked and calling their IT guys right now trying to figure out if they can clear old text and

delete old emails and wondering what might else, what else might come up. And I guess that probably leads into kind of where we're at right this right now, right? What new stuff has come out, how this stuff? That's been the big other question, right? Is like, how did these emails get leaked? Where did they come from? Who had the motivation to put them out? And we don't have a ton of really solid answers from that right now other than some really good reporting by the Los Angeles Times in a story that was published on Tuesday night that a bunch of these emails were part of a court filing by Dan Snyder. So that's where some of these came from. Not all of them.

Not all of the ones that the New York Times initially obtained. But some of these are actually part of a court filing that Snyder himself admitted into evidence. It's a reasonable next logical step and next logical question after all of this for people to ask, what else is in that investigation? There is no way this is the most harmful stuff that exists if it's an 11-month investigation that ended with a $10 million fine. So why is this what we're hearing about? Why is the John Gruden specifics the only things that have come from this? The NFLPA has asked these questions. The lawyers for people who brought forth the suit against the Washington football team have asked these questions.

And I think it's the pertinent question at this time. Yeah. And it's a huge question. And it was very weird at the time back in early July. I believe it was actually the friday. of the 4th of July weekend. July 2nd. July 2nd, yeah.

That the NFL announced that this investigation had wrapped. They basically put out a press release with some bullet points of their findings, had a little conference call, and then basically said there is no written report. We specifically did not request a written report about the findings. That was part of the deal for what you don't want to know. And they said it was because of the sensitivity of it all and confidentiality. The problem with that is that the people who wanted the investigation in the first place, like dozens of former Washington football team employees, mostly women, have said,

we want answers, we want to see that report. So it becomes very clear. You ask the question, who are they protecting? And it very much looks like they're protecting Dan Snyder. And I don't know if there's additional evidence that would come out from those emails that would implicate Dan Snyder. Obviously, it's a very bad look for Bruce Allen. But Bruce Allen was already out of the football league. I mean, he was no longer employed by that team. He will not be employed in a football job in the future. I think that was already probably pretty clear,

but now that is very clear based on, you know, his role in all of these emails. In terms of what's in those 650,000 emails that the NFL, that was turned over to the NFL, the reason that the the Gruden stuff came out of it was that it was not in the scope of that investigation. So that was why it kind of got turned over to the Raiders. Ultimately, it got leaked out. I'm sure there are lots of other bad emails and text messages that people who work in the National Football League should be very, very scared of. But they're probably not included in this specific investigation because the evidence they

have is stuff that was sent to somebody with a racial slur.com email address between 2011 and 2019. You know, how many of them were stupid enough like John Gruden to, you know, use the F word and the P word and racial, you know, racial slurs in emails to a team email account? I, you know, hopefully there's not too many other people that were that dumb. But yeah, so we're not going to see it. The NFL is not releasing it. I mean, if there is significant pressure from the lawyers of the people who wanted the investigation,

the former employees of the team, that seems to me like the only possible outcome, but the NFL is pretty adamant that it will not be releasing. Well, one, there is not a report and that they're not going to just do a document dump of all 650,000 emails, as much as I would like to see them all. The reasonable conclusion is that Gruden should not be coaching an NFL team after those emails and what is in them. It would stand to reason that an owner find $10 million for the findings of that investigation would probably not be fit to own an NFL team. And we're just never going to know the specifics of that for that exact reason, because the NFL doesn't want to face that reality. And the other owners have not forced it.

I think there's a lot of guys who own teams. They don't want to open that. Pandora's box, and I think we've talked about them to show too, that you open, you open yourself up to this sort of investigation into your own business dealings. And owners largely let their co-worker, their peers, the other owners, the other 31 men, let's be, let's be honest. Well, it's not 31 men, but it's pretty close, 28, 29 men who own the other teams handle their business the way that they wanted and they're not going to get pry into their own finances. They're not going to get into their business dealings. They're not going to get into their personnel situations.

because they don't want their own cases opened. I mean, you can see, I mean, this is completely unrelated, but there is some, like, big stuff happening in St. Louis right now with the lawsuit that's going on between the city of St. Louis and the Los Angeles Rams. You know, four NFL owners have been asked to, like, open their books and show their financial records, and they have not, and they're about to be held in contempt of court. I mean, they will do anything possible to not open their books and show what is. going on financially or business-wise, personnel-wise, inside their own buildings.

So they're protecting. They want the benefits of this, but none of the other things that come with it. And that extends to Mark Davis, who I just can't even believe that he trotted Mike Mayak out there today to take questions about this. Yeah. So Mark Davis has still said nothing beyond a statement that he has accepted John Gruden's resignation. That is it.

I just can't. That's unconscionable to me. If you're going to own an NFL team and try out an employee of yours who is not related to this. He wasn't John Gruden's boss. They even said today that he had 49% of roster control when this happened. Even that, the org structure of it shouldn't matter as it relates to this. But it's still incredible to me. Whatever you want to say about the end of the Al Davis era with the Raiders, transparency was not an issue.

to the point where he used transparency and put them on an overhead projector to explain why he fired Lane Giff. I mean, it's, it is beyond the pale. I mean, it's unbelievable the fact that he's just going to allow this to happen this way. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I just, that what a position to put your general manager in. Yeah. And so I think if we want to catch up on kind of like the news side, right, the things that have happened since you talk to Vic Tafer and to Sean Reed, for the previous podcast that you mentioned. The Raiders are back at work now.

They held a full team meeting on Wednesday with their Grudenless coaching staff, Rick Baskatcha, who I'm probably butchering his last name. He is the interim head coach. Greg Olson is now the offensive play caller. They held a full team meeting. Carl Nassib requested a personal day and said that he is still dealing with all of this. And I do not blame him one minute.

for needing kind of some time away and to deal with all deal with stuff and so that I think is kind of the news that's come out where also you know other coaches around the league are now getting asked about this about what happened Sean McVe whose uncle John McVeigh was one of the guys on those emails that that John Gruden was sending you know Sean McVeigh has been called you know the mini Gruden you know he's been asked about it Mike Tomlin has been asked about it Kevin Stifansky I mean almost every head coach who's doing media availability to his in some fashion been asked about what's been going on. And it's something we're going to keep hearing about.

And then look, the Raiders have to play a game in a couple of days. They're getting ready. They've just lost two games. They're coming to Denver. They got to power through this. They got to figure out a way to keep playing. And there's clearly no leadership at the top of that organization. And that is a big, big problem.

Yeah, there are a lot of things to keep monitoring. Obviously, this is going to be a continuing story. And I'm sure we'll touch on it when new developments arise. But for now, we're going to take a quick break before we get to the rest of the show. All right, Lindsay, it's time to talk about who has the most at stake in the NFL this week. We do this every single Thursday. Why don't you kick us off? All right.

So I'm going to kind of lean back in what we were just talking about a little bit. But I'm going to flip it. I think Vic Fangio and the Denver Broncos have the most at stake this week. These Raiders that we were just talking about, they are coming here to Denver. Both of these teams, AFC West rivals, have lost two games in a row after. starting the season 3 and 0, there's suddenly a ton of pressure on Vic Fangio. They cannot lose this game to the Raiders that are kind of in this state of disarray. You know, this Broncos team is kind of in a bad place.

And last time I saw them, I went and saw them when they played the Ravens a couple weeks ago. They went into that game in a really, really good place. And suddenly things are kind of spiraling the way that they, the things that they did so well over the first three weeks of the season just have disappeared. defensively they look basically nothing like a Vic Fangio coached defense. So they just have, there's just a ton of questions,

I think right now about kind of who the Broncos are, where they are in this trajectory. Can they get back on track this week against a Raiders team that, you know, they could come into, they could come into Empower Field at Mile High and be that like us against the world's kind of, you know.

Seen that happen with a lot of interim coaches in the past. It's, I was wondering if the Jags, might do that last week when Urban was in all his his turmoil and that did not happen. You got to fire the guy or the guy has to leave in order to get that benefit. That's how it works. And like the Raiders have like legit talent, especially on offense. And there are some areas, some things that the Raiders offensively do really,

really well that could pose the Broncos some big challenges. So one of the biggest questions that I have is like, what is this Vickpanjo defense going to look like? They cannot generate pressure. without blitzing. They just have zero consistent pressure from their front four when they're in any sort of base package. I think they're getting pressure at the worst rate in the league without blitzing at this point.

And I just want to see them get back to who they are and figure out who they are defensively. So, yeah, I'm putting Vic Fangio firmly, not necessarily on the hot seat because he started this season very firmly on the hot seat. I think that 3-0 start cooled things off for him a little bit. But if they lose this game, if they fall back to three and three, they would probably be last in the AFC West. I think the chiefs have a decent shot against Washington this week. He's going to be under a ton of pressure to make some changes.

Probably wouldn't happen next week because it's a short week where they play at Cleveland on Thursday night. But he might have to make some changes at play caller, have to figure out some defensive personnel changes. Because right now, two weeks ago, they thought they were a playoff team, right? And now they're a team that everything feels really familiar and not familiar in a good way. Well, I mean, this team has four games against the Chiefs and the Chargers over the course of the rest of the season. They're playing the Browns

in two weeks like you mentioned. And even if they, let's say they're four and three, let's say they beat the Raiders. If they go a little bit less than 500 over the second half of the season, if they end this season, let's just say eight and nine for argument's sake, I think we're asking a lot of the same questions we asked coming into the year. George Payton just got there. It's not as if there's this marriage and partnership between the front office aspect of the organization and Vic Fangio. I mean, there is definitely a world where they sit there at the end of the season

being like, we need to make a change. We have a lot of talent. We need to get more out of the talent than we have. The quarterback question is still real. I'll tell you Bridgewater has been playing well, but that's ultimately going to be something they have to address at some point, who is going to be the long-term answer there. but I think we absolutely could be staring at a reality where it's like,

all right, this is who we thought they were. They're going to win some games because they have enough talent to do it, even if the defense is underperforming a little bit. But where are they, where are they going, and where are they supposed to be? Those are the big questions about this team. And I'm not sure we have any firm answers at this point. All right, mine, the team in a weird place right now, it's the Miami Dolphins.

The Dolphins are one and four right now. This is a team that came into this season with playoff aspirations. They were on the doorstep of the playoffs last year. You have all of these high-value draft picks that they've made over the last couple years, and they're getting worse. They're 31st in EPA per play on offense. You have the backup quarterback excuse at the very least. Two has missed the last few games.

They've had to play with the backup quarterback. Even beyond that, the elements of this offense are not playing well. It's one of the worst offensive lines in the league. They've showed very little progress in that area this season, despite spending a lot of draft capital. in that room. They have a passing game that looks pretty disjointed and broken. They have a guy that they traded what is now right at this moment,

the fifth overall pick in 2022 to move up and draft six overall in Jalen Waddle. What do you think Jalen Wattel's air yards per target is right now? The guy who runs a 4-340. Is it like six and a half? 4.1, which is the third lowest in the entire league. Okay. He is one spot ahead of Jonu Smith and two spots behind Austin Hooper. You'd think, all right, well, maybe tons of yak, right?

Averaging fewer yards after catch this season than Austin Hooper is. I think Jalen Waddle will probably be okay in the long term, but this is the issue right now is that this team trading up to get him and giving away a future first-round pick, it's like, oh, we're close. Like, we need players at this point because we're getting to the doorstep. that has not happened. Their defense has regressed. They are 24th in defensive DVOA.

They don't do anything well right now. There is nothing that this team can hang their hat on. And that's surprising after what we saw from them over the last couple seasons. And this isn't the most important aspect of this, but it's always going to be there. There is a chance that Justin Herbert is to them what Patrick Mahomes ended up being to a team like Chicago, where you have this guy that you passed on in favor of a different quarterback,

Nothing to it could be better than Mitchell Chubisky was. But if Justin Herbert, who already looks like an MVP candidate, one of the five best quarterbacks in the league, continues to do this, and you don't solve that position, that haunts you for a decade. And his success, they're playing in the shadow of that right now. And again, not the most important thing, but definitely something else to take into account.

So they're playing the Jags in London. Look at that game and tell me there's a God. That 830 start in London between this. those two teams. If they don't win this game, if they don't beat Jacksonville, they're in big, big trouble.

So to a return to practice today, it's still unclear. You will play this. It's still unclear. How do you think their offense will change with him back in the huddle as opposed to Jacoby percent?

I don't really know. I mean, they didn't look to be clicking on all cylinders when he was playing earlier in the season. So I think it'll get a little bit better. It was so telling to me that the line did not change the first game that he missed. It stayed the same with,

Jacoby Percette in there. So they could look a little bit better on offense, but I still have some serious doubts about just the cohesion of that group overall and what they're going to look like over the course of the season. That's part of why I have them here, because him being back, can he solve enough where they start getting headed in the right direction? Because it has been about as the spiriting of a start for them

as you could possibly have imagined coming into the year. Why do we do this to our British friends? That's kind of what I mean. It's just like, why would we do it? Last week, we gave them. Jets Falcons last week. And now we're giving them Jags Dolphins. And I can like, I remember back when these games were announced in May or whatever, having

to look and say, oh, it's like, look at these, you know, bright young quarterbacks and you're getting the number one and the number two overall pick in the draft are going to both be there. And to a, you know, you get these names and a former NFL MVP and then we get to October. And it's like these games should be on a Thursday night in September, not on, you know, a standalone broadcast window in front of a full crowd at Tottenham Stadium. It's just, and they love it. Like, God, they love it over there.

Can we just give them like Ravens Chiefs, Bears Packers? Like, can we give them something fun? There are a lot of British people who listen to the show. I've had fantastic support from British listeners for a long time and all the podcasts I've ever done. They deserve better than this, even if they enjoy it because it's what they get. We also deserve better. than this because I am a sicko who hates himself.

I will be up at 8.30 in the morning watching this game. I don't have a choice. It's a compulsion. And I wish the game was better than I was watching over my breakfast than the one that we're about to get on Sunday. Hey, at least you have that extra hour. 7.30 here in the mountain time zone. You're up anyway, though.

That's the, at least, I mean, for me, it's like I theoretically could keep sleeping in. I'm up at like seven every day anyway. I'm racing a half marathon on Saturday. I want to sleep in on Sunday. Oh, that's totally fair. I was at a marathon on Sunday morning during that game. So that was the only thing that was keeping me from just having Jets Falcons streaming into my eyeballs at an ungodly hour.

It's going to be too early for that Urban Meyer cam, like for the Urban Lean. I'm going to need to go get like four shots of espresso to be able to handle that. What a rough mood to start up your day and just watching his sad, sad face. All right. Let's get to some good stuff that's happening this weekend. appointment viewing for week six, a player, a team, a unit that we just cannot wait to watch this week. Lindsay, who you got? All right.

Kyler Murray versus Baker Mayfield. We've got Cardinals Browns. We've got the two buddies from the University of Oklahoma, two former number one overall draft picks. This is a really fun game, right? I mean, Kyler and Baker are certainly the headliners and their history together and kind of the way that they, you know, their personal history and both the way that they both came into the NFL with. you know, maybe some questions about their size or how their game would translate to the NFL. You know, that makes it really interesting. But this game is going to be really fun.

I don't know if it's quite Brown's Chargers, how I was just like out of my mind excited about that game last week. But this is going to be a really, really good game. Stylistically, these teams are so different. Stylistically, these quarterbacks are so different the way, you know, the best parts of Kyler's games or game is not stuff that Baker Mayfield necessarily does. But I'm really, I'm just really excited. to watch this. And these are two really fun young quarterbacks, two interesting offenses,

two really good defenses. The Cardinals defense has been very, very feisty. Vance Joseph has kind of been coaching out of his mind lately. So I'm just really excited for that game. And I hope it's another, you know, 45 to 42 kind of shoot out where both quarterbacks and their really talented skill position players go nuts. I hope the Browns get healthy. I mean, it really is a bummer to see a roster like that kind of falling apart a little bit this early in the season, losing their offensive tackles. Clowny obviously missed last week.

Dents a ward missed a huge chunk of that game. I just want to see that team as full strength as possible. Stylistically, you know, couldn't be more different. I think of the Browns, like, under center run game. The Cardinals are just such this. They use more heavy personnel than they used to under Cliff Kingsbury. Obviously, with Max Williams getting hurt, that might change. But it's going to be a fascinating game.

Yeah, I don't think they could run 13 personnel even if they wanted. too. Yeah, I mean, it's not quite the Browns. We're going to throw three tight ends out there as often as possible. Who did this schedule for the Browns, by the way? This is ridiculous. Yeah, and then they play Thursday night next week. They play Thursday night. But just talking about the one game they have against the NFC West, that's the added game, is against a red hot Cardinals team the week after they have to play the Chargers. And they've already played the Chiefs this year. I mean, it lightens up a little bit. They get the Steelers, the Bengals, the Patriots, the Lions for a certain stretch. They play the Ravens twice in a row?

They play the Ravens on Thanksgiving weekend. They take a break for a week and then they play the Ravens again. I'm not complaining. Browns Ravens is a great game, but I truly don't think I've ever seen that before. Yeah, that usually only happens when it's a week 17 or formerly week 17 and then they play again in the wild game. Like last year, which happened with the Browns and the Steelers. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, no, this is a wild.

Yeah, it's a wild schedule. And you did mention it. This was like one of the bonus games that we got because of the league out of that 17th game where it's a cross-conference game. Some of them really suck. Like we're going to have like Broncos Lions in December. But some of them are really fun. Chiefs Packers is one of them. Cardinals Browns is a really, really good one.

All right. My appointment viewing is Lamar Jackson against the Chargers. I mean, that Monday night game. So strange with the Gruden news happening. and then the massive comeback that happens and just watching that game unfold, it was kind of a bizarre experience. But in the midst of that bizarre experience, Lamar Jackson is just playing at an insanely high level.

I mean, some of the work that he's doing from the pocket is truly beautiful. I was watching J.T. O'Sullivan's breakdown of it on the QB School on YouTube earlier today and really pointing out just the base that he's playing with, how quickly he's been able to kind of, there was a play he hit to Mark Andrews, a wheel up the right. sideline and they faked a bubble screen to that side. And then he looked off the safety and then came back to Andrews down the sideline. And just how many moving parts are involved in that and his ability to kind of get back on his

base and play from there, he's just doing so many great things as a passer in rhythm. And when you combine that with obviously everything else he does as a human highlight reel, I mean, you get a guy who is playing as well as anybody in the league. I mean, I mentioned his name a couple weeks ago when Nate and I were talking about MVP. I thought that the Kyler was clearly number one, four games into the year. Mahomes is going to be in there. And the other person I said, just when you think about importance to his team, I mentioned Lamar's name because of how crucial he is to everything they are offensively.

And now you just take that and turn the dial up a little bit for every single thing he's doing, placing the ball outside of the numbers, just everything about this offense. And they're going to get Rashad Bateman back soon. I mean, this is a team that no. Nobody wants to play against. And this is a larger conversation for later in the season. But I think it's becoming so stark when you have one of the guys and when you don't. And he is so clearly one of the guys right now.

And playing against that Chargers team and what they can do to kind of do you in the secondary. And just the way this staley defends the past. I mean, it is the game I think I have circled the most this week, the one I am just so excited to dial into. It's oddly an early game. which is, it's bizarre. It just like it feels like it should be a four o'clock Eastern time game. But it's an early game.

It's in that early window. So after you have washed your eyes out from watching Jags, Dolvens, you at least get that as like your palate cleanser because that's going to be, it's going to be really fun. I will say, I couldn't kind of believe this when I, when it actually happened. I went to Broncos Ravens two weeks ago. And it was the first time that I had seen Lamar Jackson in person. I just was not, I just hadn't been to any of his games. I think it was because I was covering a lot of games on the West Coast or it was on the chief's run.

And there's just something about watching him in person. And that was the game where he was, he was not running the ball in that game. The Broncos actually did a really good job of stopping the run. But just watching him as a passer, his balls have this like, they just look different. Like his, his passes, they don't look like a Patrick Mahomes pass necessarily, but they kind of have the, I don't, it's a really hard to describe. blows out of his hand. I mean, it jumps out of his hand. And as a runner, the first game, it's so funny that you say that.

Because last year when they played the Titans in the playoffs, it was the first time I'd ever seen him live. And he had that long touchdown run. And it's like, holy shit. Yeah. It is very different. He moves differently. He pops off the television screen,

but there's just something about having that like bird's eye press box view where he just pops. Like you just cannot take your eyes off of him at any moment. And then just kind of even seeing him. in a post-game setting, you know, kind of walking out of the locker. He just has like, he has it. He just has that, like, thing about him. And his teammates freaking love him.

And I just cannot believe that he fell to number 32 in the draft. It's still just like blows my mind that that was a thing that happened. But it's just that, I mean, you're absolutely right about kind of what's at stake for him this week and why his appointment viewing. It's because the Ravens are so interesting because. They are figuring out how to win a lot of different ways now. They can win when you take away the run. They can obviously win by running the ball.

They just play so many weird games where they fall behind for whatever reason. They need some Justin Tucker miracle. They haven't had like a single game without a weird element to it. Even that game in Denver where they won that game handily. Like there was not really a moment in that game where I thought the Broncos were going to win. They still had that weird like we got to get the rushing. record and so we're going to, you know, run the ball at the end of the game, which, by the way, the streak ended last week. They did not rush for 100 yards on Monday night against the

Colt. So all of that John Harba, Vic Fangio sniping at each other was really all for not because the record's gone or the streak is over. They only play weird games and look, the Chargers only play weird games. So it's going to be really, really fun. Yeah, I'm excited for it. Let's get to our one big question heading into week six. Mine, this time of year, you can typically kind of see the cream starting to rise. You can see the team start to separate themselves. My question is, have the contenders and the rest of the field already separate? Do we already know who is kind of that group at the top that we can call real Super Bowl contenders? That group I would say right now, and I am curious your thoughts.

Cardinals, Rams, Packers, Bucks, Cowboys, Chiefs, Chargers, Browns, Ravens, Bill. It's 10 teams. It seems like the gap between those teams and everyone else is pretty substantial to me. Yeah, I think so. So, you know, we published our power rankings on Wednesday mornings. We're recording this a couple hours after we publish those. So I go through all of the ballots. And, you know, obviously I vote as well.

But it very much felt like there is a really consistent top 10. And then after that, it gets really murky. Like there was some weird movement around the middle of the rankings and then just kind of a bunch of teams like in the mid-20s that are kind of afterthoughts at this point. So I think you're right. I think we have seen some, you know, the real contenders kind of shake out. I'm looking through our power rankings right now. I know this is really good podcasting. Let me see.

Those are the top. Those are the 10. Yeah. 11th, we have the Saints. 12th, we have the Bengals. And it very much feels. The Saints are a good team to mention because they're not playing this week. But that's one of the teams here over the next couple weeks.

It's like, all right, if they get healthy, can they kind of slip in there? Is Carolina a team that is going to fade after the way they played over the first five weeks of the season or month of the season? That's why it's my question, because I want to know, is that the 10? Is that the 10 that's going to be there? Is that the 10 that we have to pay attention to? Because in a certain point, it's like, I don't have to watch Bengals Lions. It's just not something I have to spend my time doing. And usually that happens in week 10.

You know, Week 11 where it's these games, you can almost just entirely write off. I'm wondering if it's going to happen sooner than that this year. We're already having that consolidated group that we can really define. Yeah. What I'm looking through kind of the next tier of teams and is there another team that could push their way into it? I'd look at the San Francisco 49ers. Very good one. Yes.

If they can figure out the Tray Lance thing, if they can get him kind of get him going, they also have had a lot of injury issues. but, you know, I think they're a team that could push up into there. And I guess maybe the Titans. I mean, they have some bad losses. They just lost the Jets. So it's hard to, like, say the Titans. But they're a team that has been there. They're a team that we expected would kind of be in that conversation.

And we've seen them get hot before. And could run away with that division. I mean, that's, now that division is such a train wreck. I mean, that loss with the Colts. I mean, somebody from the AFC South has to be in the playoffs. Yes. Bengals Lines was a bad example because the Bengals could be a team that maybe pushes in there.

Colts Texans is the game where it's like, I don't have to watch a single moment of Colts Texans this weekend. That is probably not going to be something I spend my time doing. I get four games in the early window. Chargers, Ravens, Vikings, Panthers, Packers, Bears, probably Chiefs Washington ends up being, oh, no, five games. And then Bengals Lions.

So Colts, Texans is the game that I can just say, you know what? Good on you guys. I hope you had fun. Everyone had a good time out there. Knock something I'm going to do. So, again, a little faster than it typically happens. it feels like.

But I think the teams that you mentioned, I think those are the right teams. To quote my daughter on her picks podcast, Washington football team, have a good game. That's how I feel about the Colts of the Texas. That's fun. Have a good time out there. All right. What's your big question in the week six, Lindsay? I want to know what the Seahawks look like without Russell Wilson.

This is completely unknown territory. We just have no idea. We have not seen it happen since Russell Wilson entered the NFL in 2012. He has been such a staple. I mean, he wasn't always the focal point in Seattle. I mean, for a long time, that was their defense. But, you know, he has been their consistent factor for multiple iterations now of kind of who the Seahawks are. And they're going to be without him for approximately six weeks after he recovers from that surgery on his finger.

So I'm so curious. They play the Steelers. This is a Sunday night game. I mean, really big stage for, you. you know, Ben Rathesberger guy. We've talked a lot about on this podcast. And also for Gino. He was my at stake last week.

He came through. He came through. He had a lot at stake and he made good on it. And she'll picked him, right? She'll, she'll went back to that well. Good for the last week on this podcast. Jesus. Good for sheel, man.

But so, yeah, I mean, this is just really completely unknown. And a lot of questions, what are they going to look like offensively? I know there's a lot of people in that Seahawks building who are higher on Gino Smith. than the rest of us. I know there's a lot of people, you know, Twitter wanted to make Gino Smith jokes or whatever last week when he had to come in.

But look, he hasn't been a starting quarterback in a long time. And the Seahawks have gone since 2011, the last time that they had a starting quarterback who wasn't Russell Wilson. So I just, I don't know. I don't think they're built to win without Russell Wilson. I just think they're kind of in a bad place right now. So, I mean, I'm going to kind of be watching that Sunday night game. like gritting my teeth like a little bit of morbid curiosity about what's going to happen.

Two teams that are really in a strange place, just with the overall trajectory and lifespan of their franchises, right? I mean, the Seahawks, Russell Wilson, are only a few months removed from him not requesting a trade, right? But obviously all of that. But these are the teams that I would play for if you were to trade me. That is not that far in the rear of your mirror and perhaps will be a topic. of conversation again this spring.

Pete Carroll is 70 years old. That defense looks bad. Are they in a place where they might hit the reset button in a substantial way? And then obviously what's going on with Rothesberger and what the future of that team might look like. So I assume that will be a topic of conversation during the Sunday night football broadcast. I can't believe Gino Smith Ben Rothesberger is the Sunday night football game, but this is the place we've arrived to.

Yeah. We were talked about how the schedule gets made before, right? you know, back in April or May, Seahawks Steelers. Yeah, Seahawks Steelers. This seems awesome. And now we're like, I mean, do I need like an extra glass of wine to make it through this game? Because it's going to be a little yikes.

You deserve it. You definitely do. All right. Last thing here, this one's not too hard because we have the defending Super Bowl champs playing. But it's time for you to sell me on Thursday night football very quickly. All right. Tom Brady.

He's a dark horse MVP candidate, which is kind of an insane thing to write because it's Tom freaking Brady. But you just got to appreciate it. Like, you probably have Tom Brady fatigue. I get it. We got a lot of Tom Brady over the last month. But just enjoy it. He's my fantasy quarterback.

So it's kind of reinvigorated my Tom Brady interest. It's been a weird dynamic with me and Tom Brady this year. Yeah, I mean, just to enjoy what he's doing at this age. Just watch it. Get rid of all your like Tom Brady anxieties, biases. Just enjoy watching Tom Brady. Obviously, you mentioned it. A ton of fantasy football implications.

Mike Evans, Chris Godwin. Antonio Brown, Leonard Burnett. Devontas Smith has been playing really well and he's really, really, really fun to watch. I wish they could get him the ball a little bit more in Philadelphia. And then the Eagles interior defensive line is really freaking good. Javonne Hargrave is awesome. He's been really, really fun to watch. And then he pair him with Fletcher Cox.

And that's going to be a really fun matchup, interior, offensive line, defensive line, sexiness. And you can chug your beer if Ryan Jensen gets a person. personal foul or if he draws one. Listen, you don't have to sell me on interior offensive line plays a reason to watch a football game. I'll be on a plane tomorrow when this happens, which I'm a little bit upset about. But everyone else that gets a chance to watch this game can enjoy the interior. Ryan Jensen wants you to chug a beer.

He certainly does. All right. That's all we got. Thank you very much, Lindsay. It is time to chat with our buddy. All right. It's time now for this week's team visit. I'm very excited to welcome my good friend, my longtime friend.

Nate Taylor, our Chiefs writer. How are you doing, buddy? I'm good. I'm good, Robert. I can see you guys. Hello, Lindsay. Hello. Why would you guys want to talk to me now? I thought we usually did this in like December, just ahead of the postseason.

Well, it's funny that you mentioned that because I think the last time the three of us were together was in Tampa when the Chiefs were playing in the Super Bowl. Yes. We are a little bit far removed from that in more ways than one here, five games into the season. the Chiefs are two and three, and my finger, and I think a lot of other people is kind of hovering over the panic button here, which is a conversation we don't get to have with you very often. And I felt like that's why we had to get you on the show this week. It makes perfect sense. And look, I've told Chiefs fans, it's okay to start panicking. There are real fundamental flaws with this team.

You know, I thought this team would be competitive. I wasn't sure if they would necessarily have the same record they had a year ago where they only lost one game with Mahomes as their starter. But, guys, it's bad. And it's not just defensively. It's also issues on the offense as well. How can you kind of feel the changes in the atmosphere? Is it like the conversations around town? Is it the readers and how they're responding to what you're doing?

I'm curious how you feel that shift as somebody who's close to this team but isn't in the locker room every day right now. Yeah, and what a time it would be if we were in the locker room, honestly. In Kansas City specifically, because this is my hometown, I feel like cheese fans, there are two segments of cheese fans, right? There are some fans that are, hey, Andy Reed has really never had a horrific, disappointing season since he's been the Chiefs Coast of 2013. So they put a lot of trust in Reed and a lot of trust in my homes, which makes a lot of sense, right? this team has been wildly successful, especially since Patrick Mahomes became the starter in 2018.

They've been to three consecutive AFC championship games. But there are other Chiefs fans, perhaps as somewhat generational, where they know the history. And they know that, man, these championship windows, they close and they close in a hurry. And have you seen this defense? Have you watched how opponents are making the Chiefs' offense really nickel and dime their way down the field? and it's, you can see how frustrated it is to certain guys on the team that have had a lot of success. Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelsey, Tyree Kill, of course. And so they're turning the ball over a lot.

But I just wonder, there are some cheese fans who I think are willing to acknowledge right now, A, that this team isn't as good as they thought they would be, and that they're not going to be the contender, the team that's going to, you know, really decide who comes out of the AFC. I think some fans that are already starting to acknowledge that the bills are probably going to be the best team in the conference. and the chiefs are going to have to really rebuild their defense and look towards maybe the next window in the Patrick Mahomes era. All right.

So I want to get into this defense a little bit more. We've all gotten to see it now in some very high profile games, most specifically Sunday night when they got torched by Josh Allen and the bills. So how did we get here? Personnel-wise, scheme-wise, what were maybe some of the either draft mistakes, free agent mistakes. So how did the chiefs kind of end up in the situation with arguably the league's worst defense? It is the worst defense. Let's just start there. I mean, statistically, and I put this in the athletic, I mean, they've given up 29 or more points in all five games this year.

That is tied for the NFL record in giving up that many points to start an NFL season. So if the Washington football team scores 29 or more, this will be a NFL record. And the lowest of the low when it comes to defensive football. To your point, Lindsay, it is two things. It is a structural issue that me and Robert have talked about before where you have to prioritize things in the offseason. And the biggest priority is protecting Patrick Mahomes. And so they spit just about as many resources as they could to reconstruct this offensive line. It's five new starters. It includes three rookies. They made the trade for a land of round where they use your first round pick to execute that trade. And then secondly, because you've

had to take care of one issue, you just certainly can't get to the next. And that is, A, get younger on defense. And B, they have all of a sudden become a scheme that is somewhat predictable under Steve Spagnolo, and their team speed has really lacked. And so they're not bringing in new talent specifically. There are cheese fans that think that, hey, maybe it's a mistake that this team, after winning the Super Bowl, drafted Clyde it was a lair with their first round pick, instead of drafting maybe a young athletic linebacker or a talented corner or someone who could give you a pass rush. The biggest issue on this defense is it got old very quickly. Tyron Matthew is their best offender so far, but you can sort of scheme around him on offense. And they don't have

a legitimate pass rush because Chris Jones has dealt with injuries, Frank Clark has dealt with injuries. Jaron Reed was there one free agent offseason acquisition who was supposed to provide more pass rush in the middle of the defensive line. He hasn't had a sack all season. So because you have to take care of the offense so much in one off season, you really can't add to what you have on defense. And as we've seen in the history of the league, just because the defense is good one year doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be good a second year. And this defense has gotten really bad, really fast. All right. So we've gone through a bunch of the personnel issues.

The guys are who the guys are, right? So what do you do? Are there any personnel changes that they can make in terms of, you know, benching Daniel Sorensen? Are there guys on the bench that might be able to present or provide a little bit of a pass rush help? What are some things that they could actually do in the short term and in the long term? Yeah. I think there's three things that Steve Spagnolo can actually do that could at least mitigate

a host of problems that they have. The first one is they can't continue to be loyal to Daniel Sorensen. And I think the last time I was on this show, I told Robert that Daniel Sorensen is trick-or-treat. He's Tony Allen. There are plays that Daniel Sorensen has made in postseason history that Chiefs fans will always remember. The fake tide.

But there are no more treats. It's not working anymore. He played 100% of the snaps. The Buffalo Bills, said, where's Daniel Sorensen? Let's throw the ball deep over there. And it worked. I mean, he gave up a 61-yard reception to Stefan Diggs. He gave up a 53-yard touchdown to Dawson Knox. They're playing Dan Sorosin way too much. So you sit him down or you limit his role, and then they have to play Juan Thorne Hill or Armani Watts. These are safeties of the Chiefs

have drafted. They are younger. By the way, Daniel Soresen is the oldest defender on the Chiefs roster at the age of 31, and he appears to be over the cliff. So they need to play Juan Thorneville, who I think has more range in the back end, who can allow Tyne Matthew to sort of have more playmaking ability and to watch quarterback's eyes. They can ask Willie Gay, a second-year linebacker, who was their probably most athletic linebacker, to be a savior, honestly. Like, can you save us in the middle of the field?

He played his first game this past Sunday in a limited role. He's dealing with a turf. injury that, based on my understanding, is going to nag him all year. So you hope he stays healthy. And my last suggestion for Steve Spagnello is, look, you're giving up a lot of points. You're not getting turnovers. Just blitz. Just blitz all the time.

Tell the defense you're coming or tell the opposing offense you're coming and hope that you either speed a quarterback up and get a turnover or you get some real pressure, some actual sacks that can maybe get you off the field on third down at a better rate. The Chief's defense does one thing well this season. It is blitzing. They don't do it enough in my opinion. But if they're going to give up touchdowns anyway, you might as well try to force the issue versus just giving up large chunks on a methodical drive.

It's really interesting because teams are purposely, I talked to an offensive play call earlier in the season who played against the Chiefs, and they said we want to get them in base defense. We want to get those linebackers on the field and we want to run the ball while they have those guys on the field, which is counterintuitive. Typically, you'd want to get those guys on the field and throw it, which you can do as well. But other teams just look at that lineback, of course, and we can take advantage of that. And because they're not playing from ahead all the time, which they're typically used to doing, they've had to play those guys all at the same time, and teams have continued to be able to dictate the game because they're not playing from behind. So these issues start to compound on one another.

And you look at the defense, you know, it's the second most expensive defense in the entire. higher NFL after Buffalo's, and they're dead last in EPA per play. One is at the one end, one is at the exact other end. So there are two issues with the team building that I want to talk about. You mentioned Armani Watts, mentioned Juan Thornhill. The fact that Juan Thornhill can't beat out Daniel Sorensen right now is emblematic of a larger issue with this team. If you look at the drafting that has happened, essentially since Patrick Mahomes got

there, it's pretty brutal, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Breland speaks Thornhill now who can't beat out Sorensen. Tano Passigno is their second round pick the year that Mahomes was drafted. You have Derek Nottie in there who's a solid run stuffer, but not much else. And then it's been an issue. So you have that lack of development in-house. Have they talked about why Thornhill can't get on the field? They talked about why some of these homegrown guys just haven't been able to break through or make an impact or become even reliable, rotational players for this defense at this point.

Yeah, I think, you know, I asked Steve Spagnolo pretty early in the year, and I think he gave as honest of an answer as he has so far, is that he's always trusted veterans who have been stable contributors. And that was Daniel Sorensen until this season started. Juan Thorne Hill got injured. He tore his ACL in the season finale of his rookie year in 2019. So he was not a part of the championship run for the Chiefs. But he came back earlier than expected. He, in my opinion, played fairly well in a sort of three safety scheme role because, as you mentioned, Robert, get one of those linebackers off the field. Use one of your better players in Juan Thornhill.

But slowly, towards the end of last year, Specnollo used Thornhill less and less. He increased, obviously, the reps from Daniel Sorensen. And the understanding was that Sorensen can play both safety and linebacker. He is an interchangeable part where similar to like a Mike linebacker or another star star. safety, he can call the defense, he understands all the positions, and he's been in the system so long that you should trust him. Well, physically, he can't do it anymore. So it's been odd to know that, as I wrote in the athletic this off season, the 2017 draft for the Chiefs is really pivotal because, yes, they got Patrick Mahomes. They hit a grand slam. No one from that draft class

is still on the team. And year over year, Brett Veach, for all of his, you know, aggressive for his ability to sort of, you know, have quick fixes in certain positions and certain parts of the roster. They've tried on defense. It has not worked. I mean, they gave Chris Jones a large contract. He's been a good player when healthy, but now he's dealing with an injury. Frank Clark gave you one great season in 2019.

He is one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. He has provided nothing of substance this season. and he's been dealing with hamstring injuries. Even a what looked to be a fairly shrewd move in the offseason to go get Jared Reed, that just hasn't played out. And they gave Anthony Hitchens a contract and he's a middle linebacker. He's fine, but he's getting up there in age two and you can sort of see it on tape. So they don't have the team speed.

And a lot of cheese fans are wondering at some point they're going to draft a cornerback, right? I mean, at some point. But they don't do it. But they only draft cornerbacks late in the draft. At some point, you want to top-in cornerback. They let Breschai Breland go to Minnesota. So as we sit here, week six, you can look at all their decisions on defense and have real criticism, harsh words, because none of this is worked out.

And now that offense feels like they have to score every time. And they honestly did against the Philadelphia Eagles in their last win when they had to score 42 points to win comfortably. You mentioned Beach's aggressiveness, and that's the other aspect of this that I wanted to talk to you about. Because if you look at the moves they've made over the last three or four years, it feels like the mindset has been, we can take these huge swings because we don't need everything to go our way. If we get one or two breaks, we have the best player. And that's going to be enough, along with the other guys that we have on offense. So that's what you see with the Frank Clark trade.

That's what you see with some of the big contracts they've handed out on defense. Next year, Chris Joel. and Frank Clark are slated to make $55 million combined between them. I mean, that's what this team has done. And then the offensive line is a similar mindset, right? Yeah, it's like unsustainable in my opinion. Unsustainable. Those probably will not exist in their current form.

But the offensive line to me is another version of that, right? It's like we're just going to push all our chips in in this area. We'll figure out the rest. Because if we sustain on offense, we can overcome the issues we have everywhere else. that was clearly the mindset, and it's understandable. It's something that I looked at and paired it. It's like, oh, I can see why they would do that. Do we feel like the shortcomings this year may push them to a different approach in subsequent seasons,

where maybe we don't take these massive swings and have three or four super expensive players and they try to build this team in a slightly different way? Or do you think that I'm overstating how much this season is going to kind of push them in a different way? No, no, I think you're right on track, Robert, because can we acknowledge that Travis Kelsey just had a birthday and I believe he's 32 years old? Can we acknowledge that there will be a time when Tyree Kill is not the fastest NFL player? So they're going to face issues down the road and they may come sooner than expected. And so this kind of is to your point. Clark Hunt doesn't necessarily trade first round picks, but Brett Beach and Andy Reid have convinced him to do it a few times.

And obviously it worked with Patrick Mahomes. It worked for a season with Frank Clark. We'll see what happens with Orlando Brown Jr. He's still playing on his rookie deal. So they have to, if he plays well and continues to flourish in the system, they need to find a long-term solution at left tackle to protect Mahomes. And we're just saying all these things on offense. So from a draft standpoint, they've got to get it right in terms of finding those defensive players.

Tyron Matthews contract is up after this season. So I would just, the Chiefs probably need to be more patient, to your point, and they also need to really get it right in terms of scouting and developing. I don't know if there's a ton that they can do between now and next year to get this defense to be above average, but they need to find more avenues to be less predictable, but also fit the scheme and the players that will fit Steve Spacknell's scheme. Sometimes you look at those draft picks and you say, ooh, that was either of a different administration with Bob Sutton as a defensive coordinator

and those players don't fit anymore or here are the players that we've given Steve Spinello and he's choosing not to utilize them the way that the team intended when they selected those players. All right. So let's flip over to the other side of the ball where a lot of the advanced metrics will tell us that the Chiefs offense, we shouldn't be panicking. They're playing really well. They have been playing well in spurts. the noticeable difference between the 2021 chiefs and the really good chiefs teams of the previous years, I think is the turnovers, right?

So can you provide some sort of explanation about what has been happening with their turnover rate, whether it's Patrick Mahomes and his interceptions or fumbles? There have been, you know, some pretty high profile situations where they have not been able to protect the ball. Is this, are these fluky things? Is this fundamental? Has there been a mindset shift in aggressiveness? what's going on and is it fixable? It's fixable, I believe, because at some point the turnover rate has to go down. But it's really high, Lindsay.

And there were certain things that I would say last year or even two years ago when the Chiefs were started taking this rise and being really, really dominant was, hey, Patrick Mahomes doesn't throw that many balls where you can intercept. So my thought process back then was any time a player had the ball not named Patrick Mahomes, you should be doing the peanut punch as much as often. And I think teams have started to figure that out. The San, excuse me, the Los Angeles Chargers, did a wonderful job of hitting Tyreek Hill

as soon as he got the ball and trying to punch it out. They did the same thing McLeod at Rosalier. The Chief scored 24 points. It turned the ball over four times. It's one of those wild things that has occurred right now. When the Chiefs don't turn the ball over, they are a historic offense right now. They have a nice balance when the run game. Mahomes is still excellent throwing the deep ball,

and they've still got a lot of creativity in misdirection, short-yard and situations near the goal line. But one thing that I noticed this year is in the fourth quarter, when these games get tight, whether it's in Baltimore, whether it's against the Chargers or even last week against the Buffalo, Bill is Mahomes has had second half turnovers that you're just not accustomed to seem. So against Baltimore, he should take a sack, protect an 11-point lead. Instead, he tries to throw a ball to Travis Kelsey.

That flips the entire game's momentum. And obviously, the Ravens come back and win. The Chiefs actually get a stop and force the game to be tied. And Mahomes, because he feels the pressure on third down, says, I don't want to give the ball back to Justin Herbert. And he sort of airmails a pass, again, to Travis Kelsey. that's intercepted and leads to the game winning score for the chargers. Last week, the Buffalo Bills were the best secondary I've seen in a long time covered the chiefs in man coverages and in zone.

So Mahomes really never felt comfortable in terms of where his correctable reads were, in terms of where the ball was going to go. And then if you feel the pressure, if you understand your quarterback is not playing to where we all expect, then yes, sometimes a ball goes through Marcus Kemp's hands and into the hands of a defensive back of the charges. Sometimes the ball goes through Tyreek Hill's hands, and it lands right in Micahy's hands,

and he returns it for a pick six. So there's a mental component to these turnovers. There's an understanding that, man, our defense can we trust them? And if we can't trust them, then we're going to have to maybe go above and beyond what is in the normal flow of our offense. So at some point, I would assume the turnovers will go down. I would assume Patrick Mahomes was sort of fair.

figure things out because that's what he's done for the majority of his career. But as long as teams want to continue to force the issue and continue to pile up points, it may be something that we see for the duration of the year, right, where if you don't turn the ball over, they're going to score a lot of points, but you are going to have opportunities to put the game in your favor. Because they need to score 40 to win. Or you're going to score 40 to win. Yeah. Or it's shootout after shootout. And it doesn't matter if it's, you know, Josh Allen one week or Tyler Heineke, this upcoming week. Like I will tell Washington football fans,

if your team doesn't score 30, that is an issue about your offense and less about probably the Chief's defense. And that's not entirely unfamiliar, right? I mean, a couple years ago, like 2018 or 2019, that was kind of the Chief's formula, was that they had to get into these shootouts

and the Chief's defense was pretty bad most weeks. It just wasn't quite historically bad like it is right now. I think when we're just a lot of this stuff we're talking about, though, it comes back down to my daughter's advice. Next time try to be better. Chiefs. Really, it's just they need to be better. And it gets frustrating watching the Chiefs, right?

Where especially in the offense where our expectations, I think, are so high and potentially unrealistically high for Patrick Mahomes. I mean, we just expect him to do Superman shit every single week. And maybe that's just, maybe that's just not fair. It's not sustainable. But we all want to hope that it is, right? We don't want to see the league catching up to the Chiefs or catching or figuring out Patrick Mahomes, which I don't think.

they have for the record. I don't, I do not think anyone is caught up to, you know, has figured him out, has solved Patrick Mahomes. But I do just think there are these problems that, yeah, they just need to be better. Yeah. And, and a, and a small thing that could become larger later in the year. And I don't know if you can necessarily count on it just because we all know this person's history. But man, the chiefs are putting a lot of pressure on Josh Gordon to fix some things, right? To at least open up, uh, some passing windows for Patrick Mahomes or at least get Tyreek killing some one-on-one situations instead of seeing just two high

safeties, you know, the majority of the game and really having to be methodically matriculate the football down the field. I mean, Mahomes is, I mean, look, he's, when you know you have a rocket arm, you want to show that thing. But a lot of teams are trying to make him be more patient. Obviously,

Travis Kelsey will take up a lot of defense's principles and how they want to cover the chiefs moving forward. But yeah, I mean, Josh Gordon, made his debut Sunday night. He had one reception. The team is going to ask him to do more as the season goes along. But how successful he is may alleviate some issues for Mahomes. But again, the last time Josh Gordon was on an NFL team with Seattle, he didn't make it to the postseason because he was suspended indefinitely. And that happened the previous time when he was with the

Patriots in 2019, where he couldn't get to the postseason because he was suspended indefinitely. So they're asking a lot out of a guy who's immensely talented and could still have a little bit of juice left in his body, but can he be disciplined in a different way compared to the rest of the guys on the offense, which is, hey, catch the ball, run the ball, but more than anything, protect the football. It's really interesting to watch how teams have kind of flipped the script on this, on this Chief's team, because for so long, we used to talk, we've talked about on the show a bunch. Spagnola would be in this kind of press, full court press defense, where if you get one turnover,

they go on this run. Remember the Miami game last year, right? Yep. They have a rough start. They turn the ball over a couple times. And then they just go on this insane run where they get one pick and they score 21 points in like six minutes and the game is just over. And they could do that on you. They would understand you had to be in defined passing situations.

And if they got one bounce of the ball their way, the game was over. And it feels like it's flipped now. Teams aren't pressuring Mahomes in the way that Spagnola would do to other teams. But they know that if they can just play the pass constantly, and get one stop or one turnover because Mahomes has to press, then they're in a really good spot. If they get one stop, that defense can't stop anybody. So it's just interesting for so long how they could dictate the game to other people.

And now in some way, teams are dictating the game to them. The offense is still going to be ruthlessly efficient. But if they're playing with that too high shell all the time and you get maybe a punt and a turnover, that's enough to beat this team right now because of how bad the defense is. And it's just interesting to kind of watch them be on their heels and have to be on the ropes a little bit because it's such unfamiliar territory for them. It really is. And no game proved that more than last week. I mean, Buffalo came in and was physical.

They didn't make any mistakes in coverage. They didn't blitz Mahomes. Look, when Wink Martindale, the most blitz-heavy guy in the league is like, you can't do it anymore. than every team adjust accordingly. And Buffalo learned their lessons from a year ago, which is, hey, we need to create turnovers, but we need to be solid up front. We need to get some pressure with four,

which I think they were successful with, even though they only sacked them at home's one time. And yeah, you can understand the look on Travis Kelsey's face Sunday night, which is, wow, like we're trailing in the fourth quarter. And, yes, that may not be not normal to, us, but we're trilling in a way that it doesn't feel like we can, as you mentioned, flip the script where, hey, we're going to get a touchdown, the defense is going to get a stop, and we're going to score again, and the game will be in our advantage.

So they know now that they don't have the psychological advantage over these teams because the Chargers have beaten them, Lamar Jackson and the Ravens have beaten them, obviously Josh Allen in the Bills, and so they're going to have to actually improve as the season moves forward, where I think last year they were just so much. much better than everybody. It was about maintaining excellence. This year, it's about being very patriot-like, which is, hey, figure out what we're good at, and let's build on that. Let's figure out what we're not good at, which we've kind of mentioned earlier, and let's try to minimize those issues to where we can play with more of a understanding that we're dictating the tempo, or, hey,

we're not at a clear disadvantage based on personnel, based on wherever we are in the game. The chiefs are going to have to earn it. They're going to have to work a little bit harder, just because Mahomes cannot fix everything anymore. And the sooner Andy Reid and his coaching staff understands that, the sooner the rest of those guys in the locker room understand that, the better they'll be about improving as a season goes along to get back to being a true championship contender. All right.

So I've got one question heading into this weekend's game against Washington. There was a pretty concerning list of injured guys that Angie Reid rattled off on Sunday night. We know Clyde Edwards-Hillair is on injured reserve right now. But just catch us up on some of these other guys. Chris Jones, who didn't play last week against the bills. Joe Tooney broke his hand. Tyree Kill mentioned as a knee injury. Can you just kind of catch us up on who's injured right now

and what are their statuses potentially for Sunday against Washington? Oh, yes, Lindsay. A team that is with back-to-back Super Bowls all of a sudden is dealing with injuries. Yeah, Joe Tuny, who is one of the more consistent left guards in the league, has played every game in his career. He has never missed a game going into his six season. He has a fractured hand. He did not practice on Wednesday. So that'll be something to monitor. Andy Reefe feels good about Tyree Kill, that he had sort of a knee thigh contusion and that he should be good to go on Sunday. The biggest issue is, man, Chris Jones is really needed on this defense to provide pressure both from a defensive end standpoint or maybe first, second down.

And obviously, he slides back into his natural position on third down at the defensive tackle position. He's dealing with the sore left wrist, and it occurred at some point, I think, in either week two or week three. And you can just tell on film he's not the dominant pass rusher that he's been throughout the course of his career. So they're trying to rest him to see if that wrist will get better as the season goes along. But he needs to be out there on Sunday, if at all, just to provide some level of pressure to Tyler Heineke. I know this guy may not be. You keep calling him Tyler, Tyler, Tyler, I love it so much. Taylor, Tyler, Tyler Hineke, it's just, no, it's amazing.

He deserves to be Tyler Hineke. I love it so much. I wasn't going to correct you. It's just so, so funny. Look, there's so many names, ladies and gentlemen. And I need to be better. No, you really don't. You really don't.

Look, I always get his last name wrong. At least you got his last name, right? Tyler Hideke is totally fine. I absolutely love it. It's so perfect. This, this name may not be, super specific or maybe, you know, obviously he doesn't really equate to the fantasy situation, but Charverius Ward is a starting cornerback who has missed the last three weeks, and boy,

does it look that way in terms of guarding a team's best receiver, right? Instead of Traveris Ward on Stefan Diggs, it was Rashad Fitton, who did an admirable job, but that creates another hole in the secondary. He's dealing with the quad injury. He missed Wednesday's practice as well. Who knows how long this injury is going to last with him, because he's kind of in a contract year situation as well. And then with Clyde Rizalair out with a MCL sprain, at least for three weeks, man, they're going to rely on Daryl Williams, who has been a consistent contributor in his career, but he's never started an NFL game in the regular season.

So he's undrafted. They're going to ask a lot out of him. I don't know what his fantasy projections will be, but he needs to give the chief some ability to have balance on offense in these coming weeks when they're, you know, supposed to win these games, right? They're supposed to be Washington. They're supposed to be Tennessee. They have the Giants before a big showdown where Lindsay and I will cover against the Green Bay Packers.

But they got a lot of injuries. It is sort of mounted as the season has progressed. It's something to monitor because when you play two or more postseason games every year for the last three years, it makes sense for guys to have a little more wear and tear than the average NFL team. This is very rare territory, my friend. And I appreciate you helping us understand it a little bit and being our navigator here. always great to chat with you. Nate Taylor, if you guys have not checked out his work on the athletic, I highly recommend it.

Appreciate your time, but we'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much. And look, if you haven't hit the panic button, just have it by you on the couch on Sunday. If the Chiefs lose to the Washington football team. If that happens, just pound it as hard as you can. The only defense in the NFL, more disappointing than the Chanik and the Kansas City Chiefs is the Washington football team. All right, bud. Talk to you soon.

Thank you, sir. Thank you, Lindsay. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Really appreciate Nate joining us. Thank you guys for listening. Always appreciate the time. We will be back tomorrow with Nate and Shield, previewing week six. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast.

If you would, really appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic I wrote today. Please go check out my piece on Justin Jefferson. And why the hell it is so hard to cover Justin Jefferson? I wanted to know the answer, so I asked him. Please check that out. Please check out all the other work that we have on. The Athletic.

Appreciate you guys. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.