The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Where NFL defenses are going with Nate Tice & PFF's Diante Lee

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Pro Football Focus' Diante Lee joins Robert Mays and Nate Tice for a wide look at NFL defenses. Which trends are taking the current league by storm, and which ones are the trends of the future? From defensive line to defensive backs, the guys discuss it all on a new Athletic Football Show.Get full access to The Athletic with an exclusive discount - theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really excited about today's show. I think it was two weeks ago, Nate, right? It was two weeks ago that you and I broke down the lessons that we learned from watching the best offenses in the NFL. We went through and watched five to ten of the best units in the league.

What were the big picture takeaways? What were some things we thought could apply to the sport moving forward? Things we might see in 2021, stuff that has. to find the sport over the last year or two. And we wanted to do that on the defensive side of the ball, but you and I are completely unqualified to do that properly. So in order to do it the right way, we decided to have on the one, the only,

Deonté Lee from PFF. Deonti, thank you very much for joining us, my friend. It's an honor to be on the show. Nate is in the mystical group chat of a whole bunch of online football guys, and we always talk about trying to get on each other's show and talk about what we've seen, what we like, what we don't like in football. So I'm more than excited to be on today. I shudder to think at the slander toward me that exists on that group track with a bunch of people

who know a lot more about football than me. But I will, I digress. Somehow I will survive. So we are going to, we're not structuring it the same way with this. It's not going to be specific lessons. We really just wanted to pick your brain about some more big picture general concepts, ideas, the tide, more or less, about the way the game. is going. So let's start with just your general takeaways. I know you dug into a little bit of

this just as a project when I told you we wanted to do this, which I sincerely appreciate. So the stuff you watched, all of the back log of information film you dug into, what were your main three or four bullet points that you came away with after watching some of the league's best defenses? The most interesting thing for me is, or at least starting off, is not what's changed, but what remains the same first, because I do think that that's going to inform, what changes are being made and why they are. So defenses and defensive coaches still believe that playing middle of field, closed defense with a safety in the middle of field playing cover three and cover one

is still their best bet to stop in the run on early downs. I don't know how long of a on-ramp we're going to be looking at before we get to some of the changes we cover, maybe taking over for that coverage as a base defense, but that's still kind of what we're looking at in terms of where trends are at on first and second down. what's interesting is what kind of change ups we're getting to. And this is something that I kind of have my interest piqued on when I was listening to your offensive podcast.

You guys are talking about some of these different changeups and curve walls that offenses are running while still being true to maybe like the ancestors that created these offenses, right? The fathers of the West Coast, the fathers of the Air Correel, you know, people who are taking from these teams and whether it's different formations or, you know, emotions and things like that. So on a fundamental level, defensive coaches do still believe that cover three and a four-man pass rush is the best way to go about playing on early downs. What's interesting now, though, is that I think defenses are starting to become a little bit

more comfortable with playing split safeties with split safeties on first and second down as well. And my guess on that is because of the threat of the bootleg, the threat of the play action and the explosive plays that offenses can get to off of their series of outside zone. to bootleg or duo to your deep seven-step play action concepts. I'm trying to create different levels of the defense to steal those overroutes, those big home run posts that we see maybe three or four shots throughout a game. That's probably been the most interesting thing. And the teams that are kind of at the top in terms of like EPA with run and pass

defense in the past couple of years, they all are running quarters at about the same rate on early downs. So that's telling me that across the league, as guys are studying each other and trying to figure out how they can improve, it seems like everybody's kind of coming to the same answer that having to play cover four or quarter quarter halves or cover two on early downs is a necessary evil in order to protect yourself against the threat of explosive plays on early downs, which offenses are realizing is going to be fundamental for them scoring

the way that they need to score to be winning teams. Which is really interesting. And you look at just how that has dictated the last decade of NFL football, right? Nate, you and I have talked about the last decade of NFL football, right? this so often. Looking at that cover one, cover three, single high safety structures, I mean, that's a direct result of the proliferation of what was happening in Seattle. And that's where teams were going and that's the major influence there. And then the next step from that offensively is like Deonté mentioned, all of those deep crossers, all of the boots, all of the play action.

If you look at what the McVeves and the Shanahan's and that tree that is now the most popular offensive version of football in the league is designed to do, it's designed to a specifically attack those sorts of defenses. So now you have this back and forth and now maybe we're looking at the next step of this. So Nate, what about that given take with the single high and all of those deep crossers in the play action? What about that do you think has had staying power? Why do you think offenses have been able to kind of stay one step ahead because defenses are so attached to that version of stopping the run in the way that Deontay laid out? Well, with the offenses too, is as West Coast became more prevalent in late 90s or 90s, I should say, in 2000s,

when that became more of a staple for every offense, as opposed to like, oh, we stole two plays. plays. It's like now every team had 15 to 20 plays running snag and double slants and all that stuff. Not that anyone did it first, but it became more prevalent. As defenses were like, okay, we're going to let you get up. We're going to let you throw for 67% if, you know, completion percentage, but we're going to tackle you short of the sticks.

And guess what? You're going to punt on fourth and three. We don't care anymore. Like, okay, fine. We'll let you complete it. Like before it was like no completions, but they became. came comfortable going, okay, we'll find taking a five-year-a-game when you need seven and making you punt because, well, now offenses are going for more on fourth downs. That's a whole other thing.

Would you say that's a direct, when you think about just the areas that field defenses were covering, would you say that's indicative of the move from more cover two to more cover three and single high because you had two guys in the flat and now you're letting that space exist to offenses more? Yep. And how also just how corners have been taught. I've seen a big kind of transition as that's going throughout the week and on lower levels, like corner points. is becoming really cool like it really is. But it's, I mean,

really it is. It's becoming like a cool thing to do as being a good corner is just staying on top, especially in that cover three look, that three match look that, you know, Seattle, of course, made prevalent in Zimmer and Cincinnati,

did some stuff, but staying on top, playing with length. Okay, limiting the big place, but then understanding how the offenses can attack you. And that's why match coverages have become where people are just more comfortable doing it because they realized,

well, if this guy goes in, Offenses need somebody to be over the top of it or, you know, they have to create a high low. They have to create a smash concept on the outside. And once defenses go, well, offense can only do these couple things. All right, let's just practice against those couple things. All right. Well, everyone knows the look now.

And now that's why motion has become the swing back is we're showing you this look. Red, snap and ball, we changed the look on you. And that's why that's become the counter to those matchy looks. I'll just call it a blanket term the matchy looks. But really, it's funny is one little tweak that I've noticed even the last few years, especially with the single high stuff or even just what I call three buzz week. I think it's just seven, six buzz. I think is the actual proper term, but I call it three buzz week.

But we start a lot with sand. Yeah. So three is cover three is the safety coming down. And he's going to be, you know, outside usually. A typical cover three look, you'd be covering over to the slot. Three buzz is the safety rotating down inside of the guy going to. flat in a traditional spot drop look. Now, the three buzz week, what we saw with like San Frans running in their Super Bowl year,

it was they're rotating the guy away from the trip side. And that's something I, you'd see some guys run on third and long, but now you seem more prevalent. And why that became more prevalent was because offenses started running overrouts and overrouts. And rather than having, not everyone has Bobby Wagner. We've laughed about that, Robert. It was like, it was really easy to have a ask your linebacker to run with a number three, speed at three, right, Deonté?

And all of a sudden, you have a 250 pound run. linebacker running with speed at three. Like, not everyone could do that. So how else can we stop these overrots there are crushing us? Okay, well, we'll have the safety rotate down and basically catch them and wait for the route. So now offenses are starting to have to have counters to that. You see the return routes.

You see more sail routes that sell the over and they come back. You're seeing now the change up off of that. But now I think there's just kind of like putting these things together and writing the stuff out. We say the quarters look, the too high look, the Fangio and Staley, what really they start that too high shell. and then one of those safeties comes down and you know snap the ball they read it but right into those crossers correct as opposed to predetermining hey this guy's rotating the guy down away from trips we're

going to have other rules so now we have two safeties that can adjust off of that I think it's just giving themselves more flexibility to defend themselves against these plays because now it's like what offenses are going to creative with it we have to be flexible against that creativity and that and also we're going to talk about it a little bit I have plenty of notes on it but also it's kind of cool to see what's being asked of safeties now. And that's becoming such a more prevalent position in a modern defense. And I think that, you know, to your point about flexibility, again, it pays to go back to figure out where things are going forward.

So the way that you said that motion gives offense an advantage now, that to me is really just the same kind of corollary is talking about safety rotation against 21 personnel. That's where defense has had an advantage in the 80s, in the 90s when everybody was playing with two backs and a tight end, right? I can rotate strong. I can rotate weak. I can rotate strong and inside. I can rotate weak and inside.

I can roll up a corner. We can play Tampa 2, whatever the case may be. You know, like there are all these options when we weren't thinking about like space as a constraint defensively because everybody was in the core of the formation. In a more modern game where everybody's playing out of 11 personnel and it's not just 11 personnel, there's a dude in the slot or there's a dude at Y. You know, you have to- You're best receiver in the slot at times.

Exactly. That's the stuff you have to worry about now. that changes the calculations defensively. So to that point, now there has to be more in the playbook from a coverage perspective if you do play at Kansas City. And they are an extreme example, but I think that they're the most indicative of where football is at right now. Yes.

When number 10 is in the slot, you know, and he's on the ball, you better have an answer, you know? Yeah. You better have an answer. And so to that point of the six-week buzz or playing quarters, which buys you a little bit of disguise, just trying to buy some of that changing of the picture and some of that unpredictability back from the offense. So that way they can't just line up and tell you what you can and can't play.

But and this is also, this is what it's so cool as coverages are becoming. I don't even say sophisticated, but more sound and just having rules with everything, but it is a little more sophisticated, I guess. But it's, Deont, when you're in college too, remember every drawing that you saw on install was against a fullback, a tight end, a 21 personnel, every drawing was just based, offense. And then now base offense is two by two, three by one. It's more spread stuff. And really the guys that were starting to realize that had an advantage and going. So the offenses were, okay, we're just going to spread it out. Well, it's just, okay, we're going to spread. You guys don't have

as many rules against that. You have 100 rules against eye formation, but not so much against two by two. Okay, now defenses came up with their rules. Now offenses are going, okay, Legion of boom is smoking every curl flat we were on. Legion of boom is smoking every four verse concept. Legion of Boom is smoke. Every cover three barrier you could think of, Legion of Boom was ready for it. So now it's like, all right, well, shit. How do we attack this in a different way?

It's either going heavy. Like that's why some of the Shanahan, Kubiak offenses have been, you know, pretty good these last few years, is they can do a lot of stuff out of heavier personnel, 21 and 12, and make the defenses be more vanilla and go back to that day one install stuff, as opposed to all the fancy fun stuff that they have versus spread. So it's funny, like you said, going back to offense too, is going back to the roots of football is sometimes how you find the answer.

It's like, what was the original beaters? What was the original stuff that gave you guys fits? But it's like it's just the chess match that goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth constantly. All right. Let's bring this back down for the idiot in the room, which is me. So let's, on a simplest level, let's talk about the transition to more quarters coverage on first down. Because like you said, Deante, some of the numbers are jarring. If you look at what we would call some of the best defenses in the league.

from last year. I think the Rams are that. Best coach defense is. I think the Niners are absolutely that. Those teams were at the top of the league in quarters coverage on first and second down. It was about 200 snaps on the season. It was about one quarter of their total first down snaps, first and second down. The Browns were also there, which makes a ton of sense because Joe Woods came from San Francisco,

where he was with Sala the year before. So why do you think, outside of some of the disguise stuff we talked about in the layers of complexity, it adds, why do you think more quarters on early downs makes sense, even if teams are using it as a way to stop the run? I think it's really the threat of the boot pass that has changed the way that defensive coaches are thinking about stopping the run. So when you think about your Shanahan, you know, outside zone to boot leg when you're running that Y cross or Y over concept

and not to try to get too deep in the weeds here, but in Cover 3, the way that you would respond to that or the reason why you play cover three the way you do is because it creates certain layers in the defense, right? You have your pass rush, you have your underneath defenders, and you have your over-the-top defenders. With your play action, what that does is brings your underneath defenders to the same level as a pass rush, right?

So you're manufacturing space. That's where all those Y cross concepts off of play action can be as deadly as they are. You can see that. You can see the liebacker stepping up. You can see the voids created behind them. It's so easy to picture. Exactly.

So now the tradeoff on the defensive end is cover three is better for stopping outside zone because you have curl flat defenders on the outside of either side of the formation, right? There are people who are close to the line of scrimmage who can force a ball back inside. You make your tackle at or near the line of scrimmage. Everything's good. But now I think defensive coaches are more comfortable with, hey, if it's four and a half yards on first down for outside zone to protect me against the threat of a 22 yard gain on a bootleg pass, then that's what it's got to be. because now when you get bootlegs, because it's four deep defenders, that safety on the opposite side of the crosser has better vision. Like it's really just as simple as what I can and can't see. If I'm right near the line of scrimmage, I don't have the same kind of vision on routes that are

running behind me, right? I don't have an advantage in terms of body positioning. At safety in cover four, I might actually be able to see that get in front of it, you know, and be able to take that route away and change the progression for the quarterback. So, you know, And I kind of try to rack my brain around it because sometimes I fall victim to not just taking the philosophy of Occam's Razor, right? Where the simplest answer is typically what it is. But the more of the tape that you watch, you know, that's really as simple as it gets. You know, teams that play more cover for on early downs, they do give up more yards against outside zone. But you don't see as big of a percentage of them giving up like explosive plays and like the depth of target shrinks in play action passes because they're playing cover for.

And that's what Brandon Staley said to me in December at the very simplest level. It's like if the game is about limiting explosive plays, wouldn't it make more sense to limit explosive past plays? Because think about it structurally again, right? If you're playing cover four and you have that safety that would typically be down in the box playing three or four or five yards deeper, when he steps up against play action, he's stepping into those crossing routes rather than stepping up into the line of scrimmage. So it makes total sense. Nate, you have been around coaches for a long time. And we obviously know that some of this cover for two deep stuff on rundowns has worked. It's worked for Fangio, but it never took hold. Now it's worked for Staley, and it does feel like that proliferation is happening, right?

We have Sean Desai is now a Fangio disciple who's taking over his defensive coordinator in Chicago. Joe Barry, who came from L.A. is now the defensive coordinator for the Packers. That tree has now started to spread in a way that it didn't when Fangio was at the center of it. Why do you think the coaching community and defensive coaches in general have been slow to adopt some of these ideas, even if there has been proof of concept in what Vic Fangio's defenses have done over the last few years? Coaches are just slow to it. I mean, but I think a lot of it is, is they have to just see more than one team do it. It's this weird, weird thing. If one team does, it's an outlier.

Oh, yeah. I mean, otherwise everyone would have copied Mike Shanahan for years right after he came in. Alex Gibbs when they were in the Broncos tearing it up. And it's like, okay. And then Kubiak comes along. It's like, okay, maybe it does work for more than one team. Okay, but Kubiak's a Shanahan guy. So it's just because he's 100%.

Okay. But then those guys proliferate around the league and they realize more of those assistants get around. Maybe the head guy isn't like that stuff is a little more flexible. The rules, because everyone, we know coaches, they're very, they try to be tight-knit, but then really they like to gossip on the side or talk on the side. It's the funniest thing in the world. But it's, I think it's a lot of times is they,

they get a little loose lip. And as stuff becomes like, hey, the rules of that, why we did it. They want to talk about all of a sudden the stuff comes around once three, four, five years down the road. You know, Saban's match defense. No one knew what the hell that was 10, 12 years ago. They knew what it was, but you didn't have the rules of it. Now everyone knows the rules of it.

I'm not trying to like dog or anything, but the rules are out there. The drawings are out there. There's people talking about. There's people giving clinics on it. And I think sometimes just people have to hear it rather than just one guy saying it and one team seeing it is that they really do. I think it's just a human element thing. But also, I think it's now, defense is getting a little desperate.

They're going, okay, it's swung back in a big way. Offenses swung back hard. And I think they're like, oh, shit, we got we can't run. We got to do something. We got to do something. Okay, yeah, we can get the third down and run some cool blitz packages, but what the hell is happening on first and second down? Like, you know, average nine yards per attempt on first down, who gives a shit.

Yeah. And every third down is third and three. Like, you're not going to have a great blitz on third and three. It seems are going for a fourth down now. So those are now run downs on third and three. And then what happens? Who's number one right now? Okay,

this. Who has done a good job the last few years fan. Okay, maybe there's something to it. Maybe there is something. And then you start asking himself, people start self scouting, opponent scouting.

And I think it just goes from that. And also, you know, like it's funny what Deonti was saying about like, you know, or both of you guys about saying, but also how they're making, forcing offenses to just be efficient

as opposed to explosive. And it's so funny because, again, this all goes in cycles. And that's what's some of the Legion of Boom stuff that, Big three match stuff was, was there like, not every quarterback's going to check it down. We're fine giving up the six yard gain to the runner back every down. And you talk to any of those guys, all they would say is the worst quarterback that they could play against was Philip Rivers.

Because he was the one guy that was willing to do it, the entire field, every drive. He was willing to check it down and hit the tight end. And that was the thing is quarterbacks get bored. They want to take shots. And that was their philosophy on it. We're going to put our best corner to the right side where the quarterback's right side. we're going to put the best pass pressure against the right tackle. Hey, we're going to play against the offensive tropes.

And then the offense has finally figured it out. And now the defenses have to adjust again. And I think this is what we're seeing right now as defense is kind of taking some ideas they already have, but just tweaking it a little bit. Like we say, coming from depth as opposed to maybe having a guy in the box already. I don't think to add to that, again, it is as simple as, you know, the game of football, especially at the professional level, is never about, you know, being ahead of whatever the curve is. we're always reacting, right? It's always a reactive game. And for me, you know, that's why I think, you know,

when you look at how Belichick defended the Rams in a Super Bowl, then all of a sudden, three or four teams, three, four, or five teams in next year, they're breaking out the same kind of stuff. And I think that, you know, when you look at Staley and Fangio, they're working in divisions where you're seeing the offenses that are starting to spread around the rest of the league, which is why now you're seeing more guys trying to poach off of that staff. You know, I really do think that sometimes it is as simple as that it's just spread now to a point where I think the rest of defensive coaches are looking around and saying this is more than just some niche thing.

Do the Rams have some special personnel, obviously. But, you know, on the other end, they do things that give guys problems. Kyle Shannon has to change the way he calls offense when he's dealing with that type of defense. Sean McVey has to change the way he calls offense when he's dealing with that type of defense. And you guys covered a lot of those changes up in the offensive episode. But that really is what it is. If you ask any defensive coordinator, if they felt that they could live and cover one all day, that's what they do. That's what they do. That's what they do.

Everybody is looking for the path of least resistance. What is the straight line I can take to being successful? And right now, it looks like changing the math in terms of where we're making our invest. I say we like I work in the NFL. But where NFL coaches are a defensive guy. You can claim you're part of it. I slip. I slip.

I think it's really just a change in the investment. The same way that on the offensive end, it's not about having a thousand different concepts right now. It's about having a handful and having a thousand different ways to present it. Correct. Two little rink goes off that for your three or four explosive plays the game. Such a good point. And also, like, the little tweaks that maybe they can do, like even watching the Rams defense is just a little one-e pressures that they run, the little single linebacker dog up the middle.

We're getting into that. We're getting into that. Don't get ahead of my outline. Okay. I won't get out of the outline, but okay, I'll put a pin in that. But I was going to say, it's just, that's just like an offense, just tweaking up a simple look, the same look. And there's awesome to make the other team adjust somewhere they didn't think they had to. I want to get into some of the pressure stuff and the third down stuff here in a second.

Before we do that, though, let's talk about Deonté, because you mentioned, it's these things are reactionary and you have to see the concept and have it be proven out. And coaches are instinctual beings, as all of us are, right? One of the reasons that teams want to play these single high structures on early downs is because, in their minds, we need this many guys to fit the run and make us sound against the run. And one of the things that the RAM showed last year is that you can survive in light boxes and play the run if you're going to do some of this funky front stuff. And the way that Staley explained it to me, the way that we've seen it in practice, is that you want to must. is that you want to muddy up the front and you could do that a bunch of different ways, right? We've talked about the tight front stuff on this show a bunch

where you have three interior defensive linemen within the tackles. It makes double teams much more difficult. We talked about how you can slant the front certain ways in order to muddy that up. So what do you think are the most translatable and replicable bits of front trickery, we'll call them,

that will allow teams to live in some of these light boxes if that is something that becomes more popular here over the next year or two. I think that the, what's going to make it most palatable to defensive coaches who want to stay sound against the run is when you watch the Rams, what they're doing is creating

base fronts with their safeties. It's just, it's a base run fit. We're just using safeties to create, you know, to complete the front. It's kind of the way that I think about it. So they'll be in like 335 personnel, right? Where they have three down linemen. They have what looks like a 3-4 in the box.

And then your nickel, you know, corner, whether it's Jalen Ramsey or they're using a safety out there. That's the type type meant stuff, right? Exactly. And then on the run action, you see a safety come out of the roof. So, but they're playing cover four. If it were just dropped back past, that guy would stay deep in his zone or zone match coverage. So it's that willingness to be able to insert safeties and to your point, Robert, at the beginning of the podcast, you're talking about the way that we're changing these skill sets and what we're asking of guys at different positions.

So that's really what's changing in the NFL. And that goes back to the point I was making about adding layers to your defense. You know, and this is, I watched a clinic from Kirby Smart at the University of Georgia, their head coach. And he was talking about the same thing, right? Because one thing you'll see from like those saving tree guys is they'll have like a 4-1 box. So four down linemen, one linebacker stacked over the back. And to your mind's eye, just looking at that, you know, if you have any information on the way the offense is running,

and you should be able to say, hey, we should be able to run for six and a half, seven yards every time against that. That's exactly what you want them to think. That's the coolest part about this is that you're playing into their instincts and their nature. And they're doing these things with defensive linemen where they're playing like a gap and a half where they're still being aggressive like it's cover three, where defensive linemen are looking to get up the field. So it's not a true two gap scheme. But at the last second, they're able to read the intention of the running back and be able to slide their body into the next gap inside. So to your point of muddying up the front, you do that. So now there's not the same kind of airspace.

Running backs have to stop their feet. And at that point now, that safety that was 10 to 12 yards deep is now six, seven yards away at linebacker depth, basically. And now he can add in and help you out in the run fit. Or your nickel who's an overhang out by the slot, now he's back in the box because the run has been declared. So it's just changing the timing. Whereas, you know, the last era of Legion of Boom and Cover 3 and Cover 3 and Cover

one, what you would see against the run is every defender at the box at the line of scrimmage, basically as quickly as possible. Yeah. Right. And it leads to a lot of negative plays, which can be an exciting form of football. But as we were saying earlier, you do expose yourself to the threat of explosive passes off of play action, right? And there's less margin for error if you mess up in the run fit.

The way that it is now, the tradeoff is, hey, maybe the offense looks sufficient because they're gaining three and a half, four and a half yards per attempt, but they're not generated. those explosive plays as a result because we're keeping the depth that we need in the defense. So the way I'm thinking about this is two specific types of positions that become super, super important in comparison to the way we would use to think about that. You need guys up front that are able to, one, that are just a different paradigm of player, right? A guy that's not necessarily a quick penetrator, but somebody who can hold up and play that

gap in a half. I'm looking at the Michael Brockers of the world and even like the Sebastian Joseph of days on the Rams last year. We're going to use them as the example, right? And then on the back end, that John Johnson type, who is a really good diagnoser, who can play a little bit of linebacker if you need him to, those two archetypes of players almost become more important than they've been. With the run stuffer, you can find that guy.

That's a coaching point more than it is a physical profile of a guy. But that's safety. It feels like that kind of queen on the chessboard that you didn't use. to need before, Nate, becomes really, really important. And finding those guys becomes an interesting little journey and an interesting little treasure hunt for a lot of the teams trying to run this type of defense. That's been one of my favorite things to watch with this last year or so is seeing how the safety positions become so much more valuable.

Really, it is. And I think it's going to be a position that that's becoming more of the quarterback of the defense. Like I am, I think it's already happening a little bit. I know there's one or two instances, but the green dot, you know, who gets the play calls from the defensive coordinator. I think that's going to become the safety now. I really do. I think that safety position is going to have to be that high IQ dude now.

It's not just going to be the ranger top guy or the big box safety anymore. You're going to need two guys that can kind of do it all. And I always, I just use a term, but two-way safety. And that's my highest compliment I can give to a guy. But that's where I just think that's just going slowly as it's a passing league. makes sense. Let's get it out of the mic who might be off the down or off the field on third down because he can't cover anybody. Let's give it to the guy that's going to be there all three downs or four downs now. And also is going to have a say because that that defense is just going to be more top down with everything. Top down how they read it. Top down how they look at it. Top down how they fill everything as opposed to the middle having to do up and down if that makes sense and intermediate defenders. And what you guys are saying about stealing the gaps and stuff, that was, I mean, honestly, that's the hardest part with that Rams defense is that.

you look at it and you're like that is a juicy run look right there they're only five guys in the box oh baby let's do it zone it up let's go let's wad this up and let's shoot it let's find a gap and shoot and it was like to your gain even they weren't even like let them get five yard gains like a two yard gain three yard gain like just and you can tell offenses get frustrated because they would repeat calls and run the same thing the next play going no it's there you can tell i could hear the line coach going it's there just the left cards got to hold his block one block and it's like yeah but it didn't work So, but that is something too is I, playing in the big 10, we played a whole bunch against a whole bunch of quarters because that's just, that was just the staple defense of the big 10 for a while when I was there in the late 2000, uh, thoughts. But with that, it was like you were always trying to put the safety in a bind.

So it's always going to, it's going to be really funny because you know, as you know, Deonti too is that in a quarter safety, where they have to do in coverage sometimes. They have to drive on a dig. They have to drive on something underneath. And now you're, you're going to see a lot more of the concepts with. a lot of dig posts because you're trying to get one safety to drive and you're going to try to hit the post over the top. And that's something we're going to see more Mills, as most guys call it, but a version of that type of stuff.

And it's kind of cool to see, like you said, the arch types is that safety now has to be aware of that. You have to be aware of the weaknesses. The Legion of Boom was used to curl flats. Now I want to see what the next step is with these defenses going like how we pass that off. How do we, what's the next rule for them? And also just the player types too.

I think it's kind of a two-fold thing is it's becoming just a more athletic. athletic sport or just a faster sport. Guys can be smaller playing inside a linebacker and also at O line. To be a guard, you can be a 307 pound guard now. You don't have to be 330 gap plugging guard. That's why we see more outside zone teams and why more teams can be outside zone teams is because defenses are getting lighter and faster. So now you don't have to worry about your 300 pound guard getting blown up every down by

some plugging linebacker or some plugging, you know, some detackle or two noses basically up front they're just going to blow you up. Defenses get lighter. Offenses now have the ability to go lighter or run more, quote, unquote, finette stuff. I just think that kind of, that stuff's really cool. I think more defenses are going to really look more into, it's going to be a lot of like bodies. It's going to look like a bunch of wings on a basketball court where, you know, it's interchangeable.

Like we saw it with Dean Peace two years ago. We've talked about us a little bit, Robert. We're going to see more of that, like, especially in bliss packages. I know we're going to talk about the sack, but especially just on base downs, just having a lot of like bodies. So you have your D tackle and then a bunch of guys there are 230, 250 pound range with movement and speed. If you're going to run this stuff and you want to run coverage stuff where you have guys at the line of the scrimmage and they have to get all the way out, they have to be athletic and can run. And that's why we're going to just see more and more and more of these linebackers and more of these smart safeties and fast linebackers as opposed to a smart linebacker and a fast safety.

So let me let me take that a step further though. Up front, it almost feels like you'd want to be bigger than your first. thought would lead you to because where we used to live in a world where it's a lot of just one gap penetrating stuff, we have these 250 pound defensive ends, these 285 pound defensive tackles. Now you can live with a 290 pound defensive end that's not necessarily the best pass rusher because his ability to control bodies, plug gaps in the run game and everything else, now almost becomes not more important, but the ratio of pass to run shifts a little bit. Would you say that's fair, Deante, that we're going to see more bigger defensive linemen, more bigger defensive lines, period, because having those penetrators maybe isn't the most important thing?

Absolutely. I was going to say, I don't want to jump in front of Nate, but I was going to say is that the body archetypes that all these positions defensively are changing. So like the Saints, for example, they're another team to play a lot of cover for on early down. So when you think about, you know, at the safety position, Marcus Williams and Malcolm Jenkins, you know, on size and ability, those guys can be anywhere on the football field. on a given snap. And I think that that's where we're trending both on the front end and on the perimeter. You know, so I do think that now what we may see are more defenses that are willing to say, hey, if we just get one good pass rusher and everybody else is just a beefy guy who can eat up gaps,

we'll live with that. Because to your point with pressure, we'll find other ways to be able to generate looks where we can speed up a quarterback. You know, we'll use our speed guys. Now we have a guy that instead of being a 245 pound Sam backer, that's a 215 pound safety, nickel safety, or a slot corner who's 200 pounds and runs a 4-3. You know, the timing is going to be different now. If we scheme this upright, we can get free runners. And that is where I think the game is going.

So while we are still kind of in a four-down world, I do think that body types are going to change. It's not going to be guys looking for an Aaron Donald or a prime Fletcher Cox to play the three technique. It's just going to be a guy who can eat up a guard and play a gap in a half. like I said, the ability to stand in the B gap and still have body presence in the A gap if I absolutely have to do so. And it makes sense when you say the fronts being more of a 335 personnel. That's really just a sub package 3-4. And it makes sense.

What do you picture the front three and a 3-4 big two gap and run pluggers? So it actually kind of makes sense that the nickel version or the sub version of that, the 3-35 type stuff, it's going to have similar type of bodies, maybe just a little half tier down than maybe that traditional 90s 3-4 Blitzberg style. But it's like that it makes sense. It's kind of cool. But that's the thing is all those like really good teams, those three-four teams, they usually had one outside linebacker that was pretty damn good as a pass

rusher, the James Harrison's or, you know, L-T, you know. So usually you still have that OLB that can make, as we call an edge now. But yeah, same concept. All right. So let's get into the pressure third down stuff that Nate can't help himself about. So when you, so with this, We've talked all about early downs here, but like you and I were talking about before we started recording, Deante, on third down in these past heavy looks, that's when you truly know what a defense wants to be, because that's how they want to defend the pass. So when you were looking at some of these third down, trends, third down, little tips that you picked up, what were your general takeaways about where the game might be going on third down, where defenses are becoming most efficient in those situations?

funnily enough, I actually think that we will still see something that's pretty resemblance of what we've seen in football up to this point because I do think that defensive coaches still believe the most valuable way to stop the pass is to pressure the quarterback. We will have obviously, you know, as game plans come up, you know, or specific, you know, opponents. If you're playing a Patrick Mahomes, you probably do want to play more in coverage and you do a pass rush, you know, just because of how you can be punished by their receiving core and his ability to get the ball out fast. but all things remaining equal, I think we will still see an NFL that is heavy on man coverage, and we're just going to see a plethora of different, like, pressure patterns. And now because we're playing with more coverage bodies out on the perimeter, the possibilities in terms of pressure are going way up.

You know, that's something that I really liked when I was watching Steve Spagnola coached the Chiefs defense throughout the year. It's like he would get into these six, seven DB looks, but he's running cover zero blitzes. And it causes the exact same problem for an offense because you're overloaded and they actually have the coverage bodies to create the same kinds of issues that they would. A nickel team just bringing maybe one backer and playing a fire zone. They can actually make an even a bigger investment into getting pressure without it coming at the expense of coverage. The Ravens do a good job of this as well.

They've got sub packages, you know, out the ass and they will run as many different cover zero blitzes as you can think of. You know, for the same reason, because the investment is worth it, they're not costing themselves in coverage. You know, and that I think that also ties into the conversation we're having about archetypes and who you want in what spots. Because defenses are becoming more coverage oriented on third downs now, it's not going to be about, hey, let's maximize our zone coverage. Let's just think about matching up with these patterns. Now it's going to be, hey, my safety is 195 pounds, and he does run a 4-4. And is he perfect against the slot? No, but he's close enough that if I can speed up this quarterback's process from 2.8 seconds to 2.1,

that can be the difference in, you know, a completion for a first down in a sack or a sack strip or an incomplete pass. So that's really kind of where I think that the game is going. We're just going to see a newer form of generating pressure. That's not just, hey, two edges. Maybe we've got a winning three technique or we'll bring one edge inside and add our third pass rusher out on the edge. We're going to try to create one-on-ones up front and stay as heavy in coverage and play two-man and all that type of stuff. There's a place for it. But more often than not, I think what we'll see is cover one.

We're going to man up across the board. And we'll make sure we have enough coverage bodies to where our entire pressure package is available to us without it coming at the cost of explosive facets. It's so funny because going back and watching a lot of those teams over the last couple days, Baltimore. New Orleans does really fun stuff too because what they do, I really enjoyed watching what they do because with Baltimore, you have all of these just creepers, seven guys along the line of scrimmage, who knows who the hell is coming. New Orleans has a version of that,

but they play with a three-man front, which you would think that doesn't show an investment into pass rush, but they walk two linebackers up. So even in their sub-packages, rather than taking a linebacker off the field, they take a defensive lineman off the field because when those two guys walked up into the A-gap,

you don't know who's coming. So it's all about unpredictability, at this point. And you have so many of these teams with those creeper looks, with these pressure looks, you have no idea what's happening. I think the world of, remember how it was all that talk about bringing four and being able to rush with four is the most important thing. If you can rush with four, that's how you're going to be able to stop some of these guys.

I think, Nate, those days are done. Even if you have four pass rushers, I think the best teams are bringing five a lot of the time on third down. And I don't think we're ever going to see a team just line up. four guys, these are the gaps that are lined up and that's where they're coming. Every single one of these teams, crazy stunts, crazy different blitzes, crazy twists. I think that sort of creativity up front is where you're going to have to go to survive on third down no matter what you play behind it.

Absolutely. You guys have both touched on it. But like even with the Ravens, like they're using that aggression. They're just, it's like raising a guy in poker. You're making them make the bet, make them make the decision. making, put all the pressure on them. Spags does this fantastic way. I'm glad, you know, Deonté brought them up too because it's just they're making,

not everyone has the perfect quarterback. Okay, so you do have a perfect quarterback. Not everyone has the best protection. Okay, so you do have good protection. Now everyone has the best scheme. Okay, so now they're forcing you to be right. And not everyone, as we know, not everyone's right every single snap. And they're saying, hey, if you are right, you got us.

Good job. Like, okay, we're going to bring it right back at you and throw a fastball at you. because really, and that's what we talked about the other day was that's why you need a quarterback and get you a bucket because not everything's going to be perfect because sometimes that is what messes more than anything up is you're running these blitz pressures or simulate pressures or blitzes, match coverage even. Defenses have a clock in their head too. And they, I mean, you know, Deonté, like if you're a corner, you know at certain yardages is to look for the ball. And then it's like, okay, scramble drill rules. You know, like you have a clock in your head as well.

So if you get a quarterback that can create, it, you know, screws everything. up because all of a sudden it's like, oh, oh, wait, that route, that's not the route distribution they run. But yeah, because it's scramble rules. You know, that's what happens. And that's where I was talking to was those like body things, the D&P stuff is just you guys nailed it. It's just it creates edginess for the offense. What you're trying to do with pressures, I know as an offensive guy is if we can't get all

of our eligibles out, if we have a six man protection, the five offense line, the runnerback, and that runoffback is wasted when he doesn't have to be wasted or that runoffice ends up on a D-end as opposed to blitzing linebacker or safety. And, you know, offenses, a lot of their rules are on like bodies, just as defenses are. You're going to have a safety match with a tight end. Corner is going to be with a corner. You know, a linebacker or a safety is going to be with a runback. Like bodies.

Same thing for protections. We have, offenses have their own rules. We, I just did what Deonti did. We have our own rules. But if we're looking at this stuff, I know if I'm just watching nickel defense versus my 11 personnel. I know, okay, the safety is going to be on the Y tight end. That linebacker is going to be on the runnerback.

We're good. Corner on corner, corner. Say you have seven DBs there. Okay, so who's covering the Y? Who's covering the running back? Unless we're empty and we make them declare. And that's another reason why motion is so important because offenses are getting more comfortable running more vertical concepts with five-man

protection because you're getting all the eligibles out rather than just creating edginess and like guessing, like hoping. that our, you know, our prep was really, really good this week. Let's just get them all out and let our awesome quarterback find an answer. That is what offenses are starting to do because they're saying defenses are making a waste of running back or getting the running back on a guy or they're overloading a side and it's three, you know, you have the left guard and left tackle just blocking to air. Like they're getting so much better at doing that.

Deontes has bounced blitz off the ideas off of me when he's like, that's why I always hate when teams offense is full slide sometimes because you waste a tight end and a running back and it might just be five guys blitzing. And it's like, oh, or bringing pressure. And it's like, oh, now we have two guys that are wasted. They're just hanging out the back there. And that's why I always get on Cliff all the time with the Cardinals. That's all another thing.

It's like, I have like a Joe DiMaggio. I think a street going on, right, either take a knock at Drew Locke or Cliff Kingsbury on this podcast. I think I have a list. I mean, one of them gets hit every single time I'm on this podcast. I'm so sorry. But it's, that's the same thing is that's why it's so important. And that's what an aggressive defense does. It goes, you have to be perfect or your.

quarterback has to be perfect. And not every team has that on every third down or every pressure look. I mean, and I think it's, it's funny you bring that up because what I'm, what I thought about before we entered this era of using these subpersonnel packages to create pressure, the first thing I thought about was what the Seahawks used to do during the Legion of Boom era, where it was Clip Aerole as on a one-on-one, and we load up three defensive linemen on the opposite side. And I'm that, and now the It's telling you where you are sliding your protection because there's absolutely no way you can slide away from the overloaded side. Otherwise, your quarterback's going to be eating grass, you know? So, and that was, that's a great way to manufacture the matchups you want.

And now we're looking at an era of, hey, let's play more coverage. There's more space in the game. Better receivers in the slot now. Better tight ends now. And quarterbacks are so proficient at being able to fit balls into tighter windows and they used to be. you know, there has to be a way for a defense to dictate to the offense what is and isn't available to them. So as Nate said, keeping the running back in protection, that's like, for me as a coach, that's always priority number one on obvious passing downs.

Can I shrink the amount of people that I know are out and around? If I can do that, then I know that that gives me a better chance to survive. Then from there, it's where can you manufacture the one-on-one in the pass rush? And now, because body types are changing and I think that protections on the NFL level are becoming a little bit more static. It's a little bit easier for the defense to say, hey, when we get obvious passing downs, I know if I go to your point, Robert, where it's 335 personnel or 3-2-6 personnel, and you got two guys, two defensive linemen standing in the C-Gap, two guards,

or two guards being covered by inside linebackers in a nose, and I make it look like where the plane cover zero or two-man, you're going to protect that a certain way. And if I fire the nickel or dime player at the right time with the right, pressure pattern, I might get my 275 pound defensive end running down the chest if you're running back. You know, or I might get an unblock guy. And even if I don't, the investment doesn't kill me, as I said, because I know that I've still got the coverage bodies. We're not just sending seven, right? I'm just peeling off everybody, you know, after the quarterback. It's like targeted, you know,

targeted missiles. That's really the way I like to think about it. So it's interesting to me because we talk about, like you said, Deonti, they pressure is important. and the idea of pressure and getting pressure will always be king in those situations. The Ravens are a great example. The Saints send a lot of pressure. Some of the best defenses in the league. Miami, you know, the Patriots play a lot of men in those situations.

But there's a difference between valuing pressure and valuing the players who used to create pressure in your mind. So it almost feels like the conversation we had about early downs, the conversation we're having about these situations. Nate, do you think pure pass rushers, those 250 to 260 pound guys that were paying $25 million a year to get after the quarterback, do you think that is an antiquated way to think about resources if pressure is going to be a more by committee choice, even if the importance of it has not shrunk.

And we're talking about only having one edge rush around the field and early that. It's coming from two different directions. I mean, when we did our non-a quarterback draft, it is telling when you go like, who would be willing to draft either to young guys or the heavy contract guys, but really stars, it's like, I mean, there's less, less elite pass rushers than there are elite quarterbacks or about the same. That's how we have to look at it. It's like, that's, that's how hard it is to find an elite pass rush or a very good one. It's just like quarterbacks. I mean, it's really hard to find those guys. I think it's always going to be the guy you're looking for. But I think what now is those guys that we threw away at

the beginning to push the pocket guys, the guys that are just, oh, he's a bull rush only guy. I think now those guys have now their value has raised as opposed to the bendy-ish guys or like that's always going to be the guy we're looking for looking for looking for but now it's more like hey this 270 pound tweener that we don't know if it's a three tech or you know an out's an end well we can just have him line up over the guard or line up for the right tackle and just push the pocket which is something that bill belchick is done for years and years and years totally is what he what he is done is what his philosophy is and it's there's some similarities i mean it's there it's funny how the hybrid ideas, you know, crossball nation is his idea was our coverage, our double coverage,

we're going to take away your number one option, boom, everyone else is manned up. We're going to make the quarterback double clutch the ball. He can't just get it off on the back foot of his drop. And that pocket's going to be so pushed in on you that all of a sudden it's like, oh, shoot. And then you can't throw it clean or your feet aren't set. They're just making the throw us harder and harder. And I think it's kind of a similar type of thinking. I think those types of guys, everyone's going like, yeah, it's actually not that bad.

Like, okay, maybe we didn't think this guy was, we didn't, this guy's not going to be a 10 sack guy. But four and a half, five and a half sacks isn't too bad when we have four of them getting, you know, five, six sacks. Like, and we have a lot of those kind of tweener types. I think those guys are getting a little more value now where it's like we have a spot for him now. I think about, in prior years it was like, I don't know where I'm going to play this guy. Well, I think about let's think about two different types of two different teams and the players on those teams, right? If you look at the saints and the defensive ends and the types of defense events, they value, it is those guys on the bigger side. Cam Jordan, Trey Hendrickson played that way, even if you might have been 10 pounds lighter.

And then think about Baltimore. Think about how many 270 pounds, even off ball guys the Ravens play with. Matt Judon, Zadarius Smith. I think those are perfect examples. So it's so interesting. I mean, and that goes to, all right, then if we're not going to, because those guys, let's think about Judon, Zadari Smith, because they're tweeners, they fall in the draft. So then are we going to spend more premium resources on guys on the back end? Every single little bit of give and take leads to another consideration here. But a couple of these teams aren't really that man heavy compared to the rest of the league on third down. And they aren't bringing as much exotic pressure.

Teams like Washington, teams like the Rams, are there takeaways that we can find from those teams in that group that you think could inform what defenses are doing on third down moving forward? I think that, and this is actually interesting, before we did this, before we started this podcast, I was actually speaking with Brandon Staley for. I know you were. And before we started, you know, obviously, you know, I wanted to try to be, we want to try to be mindful of, you know, not asking him to divulge too much information.

So before we started the podcast, one thing that I did ask that I felt like he'd be comfortable with me sharing is why play something like covered when it's three by one, why play cover two over the cover or the trip side and play cover four on the single receiver side? And his idea was, you want to try to be five over three as often. as possible. And that really struck me, you know, on the NFL, at the NFL level, even with the personnel that he had that is available to him with LA, he was thinking, I don't want guys a one-on-one scenarios if I can help it. I want to mitigate one-on-ones as much as possible. So whether you're from the Belichick school where the idea is, hey, we're still going to play

man, but now we're going to double your best, right? And then I'll toggle with personnel. So my best corner is on your number two or your number three wide receiver. And then we're doubling the other guys and constricting airspace that way. Or you're going at it at the more kind of zone, staly, fan geo type of approach where it's, we're just going to flood the area as much as possible. We're not thinking so much about pressure. What we're going to do is make your quarterback, like you said, we're going to pat the ball, pat the ball, pat the ball.

And I'm going to see what kind of quarterback you actually are under that type of duress. Are you able to go from alert to one to two to three to check down? If you extend, are you actually able to extend and then fit the ball into a tight window once my coverage defenders start finding receivers to get matched up to? So that, you know, if you're not pressuring, that's probably what we're going to see is maybe teams looking for, you know, they'll always be looking for that number one corner who can live in one-on-one coverage. But it's not necessarily just to say, hey, we want to play cover three and we've got a lockdown corner. So now my middle of field safety can shade to my weaker corner. It's more of we'll live a

one-on-one and we're actually just going to over, just over-invest in creating as many tight windows as possible with zone coverage. And if you want to extend, you can, but don't think that just because you're extending the play that you're going to be finding a wide open guy, right, streaking across the middle of the field. That's probably not going to happen. It's so much like basketball, isn't it? It's just like it really is. It's like a two, three zone or one-three-one or one-three-one trap, really. It's just flood it with arms. I mean, the quarterback, the quarterback, you expect certain lanes. You have to anticipate. You really, it's such a bizarre thing to say, but it's like, you're not seeing everything when you throw a football. And all of a sudden, if I see two arms where I'm about

to throw that dig or two arms, or I'm about to throw that seam bender, or two sets of arms, I should say, uh, check it down. You know, it's like, I, unless, you know, I'm a baller and there's some guys that can do it. Like, they, they go, okay, I watch them. Okay, no, I'm good. I can still rip that throw. There's a lot of guys though that are like, oh, shh. Okay. Okay, double clutch and check it down. And also like you see, and we've talked about as Robert, too, we see more of the four strong concepts

that are coming. Having this defense that is so adjustable, rather have one guy rotated down, oh, shoot, we got to rotate back. Everyone just kind of pushes. And you just see the whole defense kind of push over. No one really has to adjust that much because it's like, hey, we still flooded the zone. They're trying to flood us, but we're already flooded.

So, okay, we're good. Like, you know, we just have to pass it off. And the best example is that was the Rams last year against the Seahawks. Because I've talked about four by one concepts and Shottenheimer tried. He tried to run some and it was like it was a clinic tape. It really was watching the Rams pass that stuff off and communicate it. It helps having Ramsey, don't get me wrong.

We've all said it. It does help having that guy that can truly be isolated. But having just everybody else flood all those other zones, that stuff that you think that guy's going to pop, that seems going to pop, that swing's going to pop. And all of a sudden it's like, shoot, you know, there's a guy. near there. It sucks. As a quarterback, that sucks. Because also now you go, well, our whole game plan is these types of concepts. Oh, boy. I thought there's going to be a couple clean throws, some gimmie throws. As a quarterback, you don't want to make a godtier throw every time. You want to do

that once or twice a game. Not every series have to do that just to create an explosive play. And that's what that defense makes you do sometimes. I think for a football layman, though, you'd think of a guy like that can be one-on-one with the receiver and you think pressure concepts on third down, I can play man coverage. But, the idea of using that guy in zone on that back, lock back side as a way to redistribute your resources in coverage rather than with pressure, that to me is so interesting.

When you watch them last year, watching Ramsey locked on the backside on guys and just think about it. Just think about one guy on an island and then everyone else over here. That island, you typically think man coverage first. But now it's just a different way to think about it. And I think structurally it's so interesting when you see it in practice. It really is.

And to Nate's point, it's all about upsetting the timing of the quarterback. And you'll pull up film, you know, and you'll watch. And, you know, if you have an understanding what the office is trying to do in your head, you may be working through the progression. And all of a sudden, you'll see a wide receiver maybe break open on a dig. But the ball's already been out because it's checked down because the quarterback said, hey, first look wasn't there. Second look was iffy.

I'm not sure about that. I'm just going to go ahead and take this hitch. I'll go ahead and just take this over the ball route. And we'll take our four and a half yards. Tighten. Go make a play for me, please. give me the last four yards, you know, running back, make a guy miss. Because I can't, I'm not confident in myself as a quarterback to be able to fit the ball into a window I was expecting to have maybe two or three yards of space to throw a guy into versus I've got to put this right on his numbers if we're going to have a chance to complete this pass.

And really, and this was even match coverage, but it was more just kind of like, uh, uh, zinging whenever else is zagging kind of thing was. Deontay and I know Robert you saw too was especially on third and long, third and extra long teams to start running that sticks coverage. And I've talked about this before is why I was intrigued at first by Matt Nagy, because I heard about it, was that he rather, what defense were doing, like I said, defense became cover playing top down or rallying to tackle on third down. Okay, you'll get 12 yards on 3rd and 15, but you're still 3 yards short. Hey, it's 3 in 10, you get 8 yards. And they're fine doing that. There's still teams that do it on 3rd extra long. But he said, rather than trying to do this whole blocking and everyone protect or we'll do some gimmicky play where we hook and ladder and try and get the first down, he said, I have Tyreek Hill.

It was Alex Smith at the time. I have Tyree Kail. Bombs away, baby. Hey, you want to play top down? All right, I'm going to go over the top of your top. But the same type of thing is that was kind of like a little inkling that is like, offenses are like, all right, stop being efficient. Let's look for explosive plays.

And I think that was one of those things. That was just one little instance of why offenses now are going like, yeah, it's no use. It's like we talked about on the offenses podcast, Robert. Yeah, again, four yards and a run game's great. But you know, it's even better getting 12 yards. And yeah, okay. We might, hey, if we get two, four-year-yard gains on three runs, okay, all right, that's not bad. It's sufficient two out of three times.

But if you get one 20-yard gain on those three runs, okay, I'd like that better. That's two first downs I just earned right there. And I think that's what it's funny is defenses go, oh, we're going to make you be efficient. And now offenses are going, no, we don't like that. Let's try and be more explosive. And it's just, I think it's just going to keep going and keep going, keep going the next year, next two years, next three years. I was going to say, that's the tug of war when I was watching these clips that I was expecting to see was, quarterbacks be a little bit more willing to take the fade, right, to take the post.

And offenses be more willing to call for the fade and call for the post. And I just think that maybe offenses aren't all the way there yet. They're still maybe kind of trying to find their comfortability with getting back to some of those seven-step drop concepts, the middle concepts like you were saying, you know, not looking for shallow crossers anymore. And if you look at maybe some of like the adjusted depth of target by coverage, you will see that it is a tick up against quarters coverage and what it is against. cover three. So I think the quarterbacks are able to process a little bit of, okay, I see the

shell and I know that the dig should be there, you know, maybe I want the dig, but it's going to, it's going to take a little bit of time for offensive coaches to get away from, hey, let's get away from these middle of field close beaters and get back to some of the stuff that we were seeing when teams were running Tampa 2, when teams were running old school cover 4. And that's what I think the next kind of, you know, trade off in this target war is going to be. It's also interesting because it feels like those supernova quarterbacks become such an important part of that equation, right? Because if you want the guy to look at the deep post or look at some of those more explosive routes first, having these guys that can place it anywhere on the field at any time becomes such

an advantage when you have to shift that type of thinking. Yes. And that's, we talked about when you play against two man, what two man makes you do is either quarterback scramble or quarterback make a ball or throw, like hit that sail ball or hit that bender. Same type of thing is sometimes quarterbacks, we've, been drill, drill, drill, drill, be efficient.

And every possession with a kick. And every this, you know, oh, hey, nothing wrong with taking a checkdown and living another day, all this stuff. But now it's becoming more back to the old school thinking. It's funny, this is more like 70s football thinking. Okay, a pick, a half. Lift off, baby. Yeah, but let's bombs away on this.

Let's go. And that's awesome. And we're going to like that more efficient, like just bombs away offense. And our teams are finding the concepts that they like. But like you said, Deont, that's such a good point is that it's, hard for some of these coaches to also go like, oh, yeah, okay, maybe picks aren't that bad or maybe a deep sack. We're going to have to take a couple licks. Like we're going to have to eat more

sacks if we're going to live this way. But we're going to, we're already seeing it. I think offenses we get younger coaches that are more willing to do this. It's just going to, and quarterbacks that are willing to make these throws, it's only going to get better. Like it's just you're going to see more better from the offense perspective. I'm sorry, Deontte. But that's why I'm so pumped. That's why I'm so excited to watch Herbert because it's got to have a quarterback like that. playing in an offense for a head coach that designs these types of defenses. And it just feels like this weird interplay that's almost going to be this experiment. The true trance together.

Exactly. Exactly. It's actually funny because now that I'm thinking about it, I mean, football is probably the last one of this party. Because if you think of the other major sports, what is everybody doing in baseball now? It's launch angle. Yeah. Launching, launch, and launch. Home runs or walks.

Three runs. Three runs. Walks. Exactly. We're either hitting a 440 foot bomb or you're striking me out or I'm taking a walk. in basketball. It's we're not going to battle with all these set defenses now. We come down, you know, if only six seconds have gone off on the shot clock,

but you got a clean look for three and 29 feet, just shoot the ball. That's the best shot we're going to get. Let's not try to be perfect. Let's be explosive and we'll live with the variance that comes with that. Offense now, you know, and it was, it makes sense strategically. They're playing cover three. Everybody's deep.

Just check it down. Just check it down. You know, we can all feel good about that. Nobody gets fired when you check it down. Yep. But now we're moving into an era where that's just not going to be sufficient. But yeah, nobody gets fired, you know, when you check it down in Cover 3. But I think that now it's just not sufficient.

It's time to take those shots. Play the variance game, you know, be a legend. Take the chance. It is. If it works, if it works, you can be the 2018, 2019, 2019, 2020 chiefs. If it doesn't, hey, you may get close enough. You can still be the 2020 bills, you know. There's nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. We talked about on the offense podcast, Robert, about like the chiefs are one of the teams. They can get away with a lot because of my homes, but other teams are going to do it. I've seen Green Bay do it. I've seen Buffalo do this. I've seen a few other really good offenses do it. They're tying in more deeper concepts with quick game protection, with five-man protection. And that's because defenses got so good about the rules of the offense and the timing of the timing and the timing of the timing and the timing of the timing. That now it's like, well, now we got to fuck with that. Now we got to screw up their timing. Now we got to extend the route. We got to run more vertical routes with all five eligibles getting out there. And not just a running back on a checkdown that our linebacker can go, okay, I can sink. I can sink. All right, I'll drive on it. It's no threatening, threatening. Verticality. And what verticality is is explosive place.

And that what it is is gash or be gashed. And it's awesome. I think it's going to be fun because we get to see awesome pressures. We get to see speed on defense. No one hates speed. That's me as a Wisconsin badger saying that. And no one hates quarterbacks with howitzers either. I mean, that's the fun part about this.

Big athletic quarter. back's making it awesome plays. Yeah, let's do that. So I think that's what's so cool. I think NFL football and just football in general is going to a really cool direction. And to be clear, that works for the defensive end as well, you know? More pressures, more sacks, more sex strips, more interceptions. I think that it's time to play the variance game in the sport. So I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what this tug of war is going to be like over the next decade or so. Yeah. Awesome. Gentlemen, that was a fantastic conversation. Sincerely appreciate your time, Deonté. We could not have done that without you literally.

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