The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Where Tua Tagovailoa, Jalen Hurts, and other young QBs need to improve with Dan Orlovsky; Plus, a Bengals team visit with Paul Dehner Jr.

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

The Dolphins, Eagles and Jets are all built to win right now, and the Jaguars spent plenty of cash for the 2022 season. All that's left for those four teams is for their quarterbacks to take the next step. Where do Tua Tagovailoa, Jalen Hurts, Zach Wilson and Trevor Lawrence need to improve this season? ESPN's Dan Orlovsky joins Robert Mays to break it all down on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Then, Robert checks in from Bengals camp with Paul Dehner Jr. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, August 18th. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Our Bengals writer, one of our Bengals writers at the Athletic. Paul Deiner Jr. He's going to be joining us a little bit later.

I am recording this from a room in the bowels of Paul Brown Stadium as I continue heading around to different camps around the country. Had a really good visit in Cincinnati today. Really enjoyed the chat with Paul. I think you guys will as well. before we get to that, though, I am very excited to welcome from ESPN, Dan Orlovsky. Dan, how you doing, bud? I am great.

I would imagine that once your listeners started to hear you say from ESPN, they were hoping it was Mina Kimes. So I apologize that I am not heard, but I'm doing good, man. Super fired up to be with you, dude. I'm really excited about this. We're going to have Mina at some point over the next few weeks as we continue our preview content. So people looking for Mina, we'll get her eventually. I really wanted to do this show with you, and I wanted to do it for a bunch of different reasons. There are so many teams around the NFL based on the ways they spent this offseason and how aggressive they were.

That the last question for those teams is, can the quarterback get better? The quarterback is kind of the last piece. We kind of has conceded that Jalen Hertz to Zach Wilson, well, if those guys take a step, then what can those teams be. So what I wanted to talk about is, what does that look like? What does those guys actually taking a step actually mean? Where do we need to see them get better? And as the only friend I have who played quarterback in the NFL for several years,

I figured you might be the person to talk about this with. I think the topic is awesome. I think it's super interesting. It's a great point as well because a lot of us sit there and go, this guy plays well, you know, and the only way they can play well is the people around them. So, yeah, I am fired up to dive in because I obviously relatively opinioned in and all four guys. I have four guys I wanted to talk about. It was Tua, J-1 Hertz, Zach Wilson, and Trevor Lawrence.

And the reason I settled on this group is that these teams were super aggressive this offseason. If you look at cash spending in the league, the Jets were fourth, the Jags were fifth. They want to win right now. There are other young quarterbacks that need to get better, but their teams aren't on this timeline. Justin Fields doesn't count for this. Davis Mills doesn't. These teams want to win in the moment. The dolphins were aggressive, the Eagles were aggressive.

So that's why I settled on these four guys. And let's start with Tua. And there are so many different questions about what he needs to do, what this Dolphins offense is even going to look like. When you look back and you see what he was within their previous offensive structure, where do you think some of the major faults in his game were from last year? Yeah, I mean, I think the inability and, the unwillingness to be aggressive with the ball down the field.

And that was a little bit of his own bearing and a little bit of probably more so. They didn't have the people to do it, both up front and the receivers on the outside. You know, the big thing that I've talked about with two of this offseat. Robert is, okay, so, you know, Jalen Waddle, it's year two. Great. And then they obviously make the move for Tyreek. And everybody is expecting him to play in a way that Patrick. has in many ways. Like just let's just throw the ball deep every play because now that you have a guy to do

that. And I have been steadfast with Tua, you know, really since he came into the league, but even more so this year is just because you have more talented players and more speed around you on the outside, do not try to become somebody that you are not. You know, you aren't the big play Justin Herbert chucked the ball downfield quarterback. You are the, Drew Brees, play point guard, distribute to football, and play in that way and be precise. And I think that's the thing that I will watch to the most this year is, okay, we know that you need to throw the ball downfield more. Absolutely.

Every quarterback needs that. We know that you need to do it more, but do you become obsessed with it? You know, like, Robert, I remember there was a little bit of this narrative with Lamar last off season, you know, like they got to throw the ball more downfield. to the outside. And I thought Lamar for a stretch last year almost got drunk on that a little bit. Like, dude, it was bombs away too much for the Baltimore offense, you know, where it was just like, we're going to throw a ball deep every play. And I think there's that- And outside the numbers. Yes. And I think there's is that fine line for Tua to learn. All right, yeah, these, you know,

Mike McDaniel called a shot, you know, and it's there or it isn't and not forcing the issue because of the narrative on the outside. How do you see, if you're trying to deploy Waddle and Tyreek in the best way, how do you see the pieces fitting together? Like, do you see both of them being able to create spaces, guys that are lifting the top off and then the other guy coming underneath? Like, how do their roles sift out? Because they are a little bit samey to the outside kind of looking in.

Yeah, absolutely. I think the big thing is I don't, I very rarely have those guys, you know, kind of on the outside soloed up. They aren't, you know, your traditional, I guess, Mike Evans, your Julio Jones, or you just put them, your Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, hey, man, you're the ex-receiver solo by yourself, your one-on-one go win. I think they are more of your pieces that you move around condensed splits, reduced splits, because, and that's not a knock on them as players, but, you know, for everyone listening and you know this, like when you cut those splits down and get them closer to the offensive tackle.

You know, one of the benefits of it is you don't get hands on guys often at the line of scrimmage there. So then the speed that they do have is utilized more so, you know, that the quickness and the twitchiness that they do have is utilized more so. So I really do believe that you can use both of those guys, Waddle and Tyreek, if you're Mike McDaniel, the same way you did use Debo. I don't think you're handing the ball off to them that much in the backfield, but you are moving them around both in.

formation and pre-step motion. And it is one of those things. You remember how the Vikings used to use Percy Harvin. Hey, man, we want to get him the ball 10 or 12 times a game. I don't care how we get him the ball. Sometimes we're going to call pass plays for them. And it's just straight drop back, design routes. Sometimes it's going to be jet sweep motions or backfield handoffs. Sometimes it's going to be perimeter screens. Sometimes it's going to be utilization in the RPO game, you know, with inside route. So I really believe that you can use both those guys the same way. You know, I think for me, the more interesting part is how they use those two cats in relation to Mike, you know, Gisiki, their tight end, who is a really good player, you know, because I think

he's one of those guys that affects coverage also that you can really utilize the underneath pass game because of him to those two players. Yeah, it's interesting. thinking about the snaps and the alignments because Cedric Wilson, I want to say, had the highest slot snap rate in the league last season. It's like 97% of his snaps he spent inside. Tyreek spent less time in the slot last year than he had in years past. He can play inside out. We know that. So just where they think the best alignments are for all of those guys and the roles those three guys will play, that's really interesting to me. Because it doesn't, as I think about it, it doesn't instantly become clear based on the way those guys have been used in the past and what we've

seen from Mike McDaniel in the past. Yeah. And I think part of it too is the reality of they are in some positionless, you know. And when you're positionless, you kind of have an infinite way that you can be used. You know, it's a good thing, not a bad thing. Yeah, for sure. And I, and it's very much school, old school New England philosophy when it comes to those players. I think that we saw Mike do that a lot.

in San Francisco. And there's a beauty in that. I guarantee you they are going to come out week one, break the huddle, and you're going to see both those guys lined up in the backfield. And just imagine if you're a defensive guy and going, okay, lined up in the backfield. And now all of a sudden, one of them motions out. You know, now they're both lined up in the backfield at the same spot and one goes opposite.

So just how does that kick your coverage, force communication? Are you in zone? man, are we creating matchups versus a bat? You know, I just think that the flexibility is what's going to be the beauty in Miami. So you mentioned Drew Breeze's name, and I think that's really interesting. Tua was better as a deep passer in the limit opportunities he got last year than I give him credit for. I'm looking at the numbers right now.

He had the highest adjusted completion percentage on deep balls in the NFL last year, according to PFF. Whether that sticks as attempts more of them will see. I'm wondering if you have a guy like Drew Brees or like Tua who doesn't necessarily have that big canon like arm, the Saints did such a good job of creating explosive plays with Drew Brees, especially early in Sean Payton's tenure. How do you intentionally and consciously create explosives for a quarterback who doesn't have Patrick Mahomes' arm? Yeah, so I think there's two ways to create explosive plays or have explosive plays in the NFL.

you have a freakazoid or play action pass you know you can create you know explosive plays when you say hey devante you know go win on a go route great because i can throw that go route any way i want and he's just so good i'm in Cincinnati right now and talking to their coaches about jimar last year just every single time they got single high joe took it and he's like why wouldn't he you know exactly you know like as long as you know the type of throw to make in the in the certain situations covered. And I don't, I don't want to, I don't know if, you know, Tyreek is going to be the guy that's, hey, man, just go run a go route. So I think it is going to be the, and this is how New Orleans did it. It was the hardball play action pass that created those chunks. And those chunks,

the reality, Robert, you know this. They were like 12 to 15 yard throws that became 25 to 35 year gains because, you know, when when I have that 12 or 15 yard throw that is based upon the illusion of the run and I get that crossing route or that deep vacated void route, if my quarterback throws it on the right time to the right spot at the right moment, that 12 or 15 yard throw because I'm hitting that guy in a vacated void on the run becomes a 20 to 25, 30 yard completion. And so, yeah, I think the simplistic, simplistic answer is getting the defense to play run when you've created that, when you've called the pass.

And Tua's got to, and that's the fundamental part of this offense is like that ball has got to be out at the right moment, hit perfectly in stride to where those guys can go do something with it afterwards. I'm wondering about this because, again, the kind of conversations I've had since I've been here today talking and defensive coaches. And a lot of defenses around the league right now are dropping that backside safety into those big crossing routes. And the ones that you've seen Tyreek, he'll hit a million different times. What happens when you have two guys that you have to account for that in the way that the

dolphins do? Structurally, how do defenses fail to account for that in a way that Miami might be able to take advantage of? Because when I think about explosive plays on this team, I'm thinking about those deep crossing routes. I'm thinking about crossers in general because you're not asking to it to push the ball 30 yards down the field. Yeah, I think it's two ways. This is great question. One, you know, the leverage that the defense is going to have to play. Because a lot of times when you're dropping that safety down

to where that crossing road is coming. Two, the guy that's playing him is playing some form of an outside leverage, right? You're forcing that guy or you're allowing that guy to go to coverage. Well, you're not going to be able to play outside leverage all the time because you could have a guy like Jalen opposite or Tyreek might be opposite Jalen and he's going to be running away from the leverage that you want to be playing. I thought, I also think it's making sure that you have. So, you know, again, this is why I think this question is phenomenal. When you get these crossers, oftentimes you're trying to get the defense to flow horizontally one way and replace where they just came from with that crosser. The same thought could be making sure,

if you're Mike McDaniel, that you have a lot of past concepts that are built into that initial stem of the cross coming back to where you came from as the receiver. So again, that's great. If I'm on the slot to the right and you're dropping the safety down to the boundary, you know, we call it a chase route often is, you know, you start to bring this deep cross stem as a receiver over and then all of a sudden as a defense, you're going, here we come, we drop in, and I go back where I came from high. I think the more that Mike can do that, that's really going to force defenses to be in a guess game leverage-wise.

And to me, the important part of this is that they didn't get a ton better along the offensive line, but they might have gotten enough better to take advantage of some of this stuff. Because everything we're talking about, think about the arm motions that we've been making as we've been having this conversation. This stuff takes a while. Because even with guys that are as fast as both of them are, you still. still have to get all the way across the field. And that's the best way to take advantage of a defense with that kind of speed, but you still need time for those plays to develop.

And hopefully with Toronto Armstrongstead, Connor Williams, the improvements they've made there, they're able to kind of function in that world. Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, I think that's something that probably doesn't get talked enough about

when it comes to the quarterbacks in the marriage of this system and helping the offensive line, which I think will be a strength for Tua is the ball handling. You know, like Tua is a real. really good play fake ball handling quarterback, right? It's all those RPO's, man. He's used to it.

Exactly. You know, and that's a big part of it. And, you know, again, I grew up in this world where Gary Kubiak was so, and the late Greg Knapp was so. And Kyle Shanahan, you know, you never really understood how important the look of that fake was. So not only is two are really good at that stuff, but it's also going to help those guys get downfield. It also helps the offensive lineman. You know, if you think if you're a defensive lineman, you're, you know, kind of reading and that stretches away from you or that ball

fakes away from you. And I'm like, yo, I got no idea where the ball is. It slows you. It does. You play as a hesitant defensive lineman. And I think that will be something that, you know, probably is going to be a huge benefit for Tua. He's not a runner. You know, Tua is not running around in the same way some of the other mobile quarterbacks are. but he's very twitchy. The way he can kind of snap back, I've always noticed that about him. I think that's a great point.

The way that you're talking about this, how bullish are you about him in this offense? Do you feel like this is going to go well? I do. You know, I think that you're looking at, you know, 25 touchdown plus 4,000 yard performance bike Tua. I often say this. You know, I think that we are in a point

where coaches are so smart and players are so smart. We shouldn't sit in here and go, what kind of fit is this dude it's the NFL you should thrive in situations and i just believe this is a situation with the the talent that they have the type of talent that they have in the quarterback um skill set you know too again is best that like let's get the ball out and distribute it and be accurate and and i'll pick you apart you know and marrying that with mike macdaniel and his philosophy of how he uses different pieces, you know, one of 11.

I think that it's hard for Tua to play poorly. I really do. I think that Tua should be in a place where he is thriving this year, you know, and kind of, you know, is allowed to flourish talent-wise. All right. Let's get to J-1-Hertz. In your mind, where does J-1-Hertz need to be better this year than he was last year? You know, definitely number one, you know, the,

ability to create the big play in the past game with the strength of his arm downfield. And then number two, you know, like third and seven, number one and number two are dead. Are you going to hang in and throw a 14-yard in-rout versus tight man coverage on someone's face mask? You know, can you be capable of doing that? And it's got to be driven. You know, like you've got to drive the ball because there is a very small win. window. And I think that is the huge question mark where this team can potentially go because they're loaded.

I think that I've said this. I think it's one of the, if not the toughest offenses in the league to tackle. Everybody on their team offensively and Jalen including is a tough tackle. But, you know, my big concern with Jalen is like he just doesn't have a huge powerful arm. and sometimes there's a little bit of like the the I don't want you know kind of like the floating of the ball we're like get there ball get there and and you know I want to see that go to the next level for him I was there last week and talking to some people there just about what they need to see from him I think it's just quick quicker quicker because his time to throw is very long that's a little bit deceiving just because he's moving around so much but when

you watch him play they used this formation all the time last year where they would have trips to the left side and they would have Goddard as an inline tight end to the right side. And makes sense, right? You're two things. You're giving him a matchup hopefully on that side of the field with Goddard and that he has all that space to work outside. Because if you look at the ways, the places that Jaylen hurts through the ball last season,

outside the numbers to his right consistently. That's where he wanted to go because it's the easiest place to go. But when those weren't there, he didn't have that first option to his right, outside, he struggled to get to other routes within the progression. And I think that him kind of locking onto that stuff has been a consistent problem or was in the past, can he get one to two to run faster consistently? And I think if he does that and more of those routes are in play within a given structure, within a given route combination, you're going to see him attack the middle of the field

more. You're going to see that those numbers go down. And I think that that just quickness and being able to move through that stuff a little faster is definitely the number one priority based on the conversations I had. Yeah. And I'd agree. And I would even say this. It's not just like the mental development of it.

I would say for a guy that's just such a bonkers athlete, he's not that twitchy. You know, as a, he's a little. Yeah. No, he's not. It's a little long. Yeah. Correct. But physically he's a, he's not that twitchy.

And so like, I'll contrast to Joe, Burrow in Cincinnati. Maddie. Like Joe is a thrower. It's twitchy. You know, like the, like I, it's almost like, you know, watching, watching the dude, like throw a punch. It's like, bang, it happens so quickly, you know, these boxers. It's like Floyd Mayweather throwing a punch. You know, Jalen's not that type of physical athlete and physical quarterback where, you know, number one's not there.

And that number two, not only physically, mentally he gets there quickly, but it's that snap, pop, that ball comes out of my hands so quickly. So yeah, I think it's, there's definitely that growth. I also like say this. When you come to that solo formation trips and got her by himself, there's also a reality. And this is a little bit the tool of conversation. Like that's maybe that's just not him as a player also. So, you know,

if you want him to be that for sure, but those formations are built for him to have clarity. Hey, dude, it's you, you've got single high safety zone. We're going one to two. You know, and get the ball out. And there's a beauty to that as well.

I think they live in the RPO world again, you know, offensively because their offensive bond is so violent and physical and athletic. But yeah, it's a huge opportunity for him to show that development. I'm wondering in what ways they can use A.J. Brown, right? Because I can't imagine two players more dissimilar in terms of where they thrive or even where they existed last year than J.1 Hertz and A.J. Brown. Just you can imagine it in your mind. Think about all of the strikes and glance routes and in breaking stuff we've seen from AJ Brown over the last two years. No one in the NFL

threw the ball less frequently over the middle of the field last year than Jayland Hertz. So what does that look like? How do they create those opportunities for him? Because based on what they said, it's not like he's uncomfortable throwing the ball there. It's not like that area of the field is off limits to them because of size in the way that it is with some of these other guys like Baker-Mayfield or Russell Wilson. So what is it? Why haven't they attacked that area of the field? And is A.J. Brown the answer to that. That's a huge question for me.

I think AJ is the answer to it. The two ways that I think they do it are, so like Philadelphia last year didn't have, I think there's different kinds of play action, right? And there's bootleg and then there's play action. Philadelphia was more movement-based, bootleg-leg-based. Or, you know, like the play action that was, again, trying to get a horizontal movement out of the defense. Really to take some of those glances or rap routes or the quick hitting in route in the

play action world, you need a vertical, you know, conflict. And Philadelphia really doesn't have much of a downhill ball faking offense. Yeah. And I think, you know, Tennessee does. Tennessee with, you know, Arthur Smith certainly did. With Todd Downing certainly did. So they've got to have run game within their offense that is a downhill hitter. And again, this is why these conversations are so cool.

Philadelphia's offensive line is a side-to-side offensive line because they are so athletic. You know, because of the zone. All those pinpole, all the ways that he can move is just a little bit different. That's a really good point. For sure. And because of the zone read too. And so to create some of that stuff for AJ, they've got to implement. that into the offense, some of that downhill.

We are coming right at you. Linebacker safety step up two steps to fill this gap. Back foot into ground, five step. Here comes that in route because that's what AJ does. That's what Julio did. It's in this system. And they've got to implement that a little bit. And then I think the RPO game, yeah, I do believe that the RPO game and him

being that, hey, we're running slant. We're running a slant from the slot. are reading this backside defender, you know, and in the simplicity of that, there's beauty in it. How do you get comfortable just mentally sorting through the traffic in that area of the field? Like, it's just so much easier to say, I have this one-on-one out here. I'm going out here. If it's not there, I'm going to take off. How do you start to get comfortable with all of those bodies and that junk in there?

Yeah, I think the way I was taught was you see everything by seeing nothing, you know? A lot of times, young quarterbacks, hey, the curl flat, we're reading the flat defender, you know, or the sale route. We are reading the flat defender, you know. And I think when you're thrown over the middle of the field, you're just trying to see color more than person. You know, you're trying to see a window more than an individual guy. And I think the more that quarterback get comfortable, you know, that's the difference between throwing a guy open inside is significantly higher than throwing a guy open on the outside. You know, when I throw a guy open on the outside, if it's incomplete, it's going out of bounds more often than not, right? When you throw a guy open on the inside, if it's incomplete, there's safeties back there waiting for it, you know, or there's a linebacker hand that's getting popped up, that tips the ball up.

So it's really like getting the reps of knowing, you know, seeing blurs of color and not focusing on a single guy, but really seeing an area, you know, more so than a defender. That's where I think quarterback, young quarterbacks get more comfortable throwing over the middle of the field. That's really interesting because my understanding is when you're working through pure progression reads that aren't necessarily coverage beaters. you're looking for windows. And I heard that they're hoping, I think offenses around the lead period are going to be doing more of that pure progression stuff because it's harder to understand what the coverages are

because everyone's playing those shells where it's a little bit murkier at the beginning. So that makes a lot of sense. It seems like finding those windows is going to be important for them and more important for them on more level than what. Yeah. And I'll tell you this too. To take it to the next level is when you are calling these full progression reads,

you get to windows faster. And I think Mac Jones does this as good as any young quarterback I've seen when you start to cancel out some of those progressions pre-snap. I know it's a full progression read coach and it's one to two to three, but I know one is going to be dead. So, you know, now it's I'm opening number two by putting my eyes or my body in a situation, even though I know number one is not going to be getting the ball. So, you know, it's, it's something that it just, and that's part of like the young quarterbacks that are coming into the league nowadays, man, is like they don't necessarily run a ton of this stuff growing up because it is such a matchup based game right now, such an RPO based zone rate game right now. Like, I didn't grow up in that world. I grew up in the progression, the full progression world. I grew up in knowing if it's one high or too high, man or zone.

And that was going to take me. And so quarterbacks, they just need more reps. at it this year to really understand or nowadays to really understand how hard it is. All right. Let's get to Zach Wilson, who obviously, he has a little bit of a barrier here because he's not going to be playing the rest of the preseason. We don't know when he's going to be back, but I still think that he's pretty central to this conversation.

Where do you need to see the biggest steps from Zach Wilson heading into year two? Yeah, number one, dude, hit your layups. And that's what ticks me off about his game the other night, the first throw of the game. hit your layups. And I remember, again, talking about Lamar going year one to year two. It was like, hit your layups. I think number two is, you know, I'll go back to number one. There was so many times last year where Zach had a guy wide open, three, four, five yards from the line of scrimmage. And you've heard the same pull a string, guide the football, aiming it. And you're like, dude, how do you miss that throw? You know, like there's no way that that shallow cross should be so off target.

And again, I'll go to the first pass the other night, Garrett Wilson, butt naked wide open. It's cover three. There's no concern about a flat defender and ball's not even close. So hit the easy throws. I think the second thing, and this is really the big step, is this offense, and we've talked about this offense a lot because they're growing so much in the league nowadays, that Michael four runs from Matt Lafour, Calchian. This offense is best when the quarterback allows.

the play caller to star. You know, and that's hard for talented guys. You know, this offense is best when the quarterback just allows the play caller to be the star. And Zach is such a physically talented kid that you sometimes like, oh, I got to make these throw. No, you don't, dude. You know, Aaron Rogers is a perfect example of this.

He's back-to-back MVP of the league. I don't think any quarterback has thrown the ball at or behind the line of scrimmage more in the last two years than Aaron, you know, MVP of the NFL. I think Zach's got to learn that you don't have to be the star in this scheme. Everything's got to happen faster. But I would say those are the two big areas for me. This is another one where it just feels like the help that's potentially coming is going to be so important for them. His numbers last year against man coverage were absolutely abysmal.

And teams were incredibly comfortable playing it because who are they afraid of? Nobody. They have so many guys missing time and he's down to fourth and fifth string receivers by the end of the year. And that just seems like one of those places that you can really help a quarterback. The receiving talent I have, I'm forcing them out of certain looks in certain situations. I'm making sure that I'm opening up versions of my offense that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Yeah. And not only that is the size of those people.

You know, I'm not being a jerk, but like some, his receivers last year were little guys for the most part. You know, Elijah Moore, Braxton Barrios, guys that are smaller in frame. When you're throwing against man coverage to guys that are smaller, it's a very intimidating thing. And when you're, when you're seeing so much man coverage, it really comes down to like this, Robert, like, number one, do I create winners as a play caller? Like, am I giving guys winners that make it easier? Number two, are they physically talented enough to go win in that? coverage enter a Garrett Wilson. And then number three, my ball placement's got to be premier because, you know, wide open in the NFL versus man coverage is the guy on my back hit. Hey, that guy's

wide open, you know, so the ball placement. And that goes back to, and I think Zach does this is, you know, I often say, you know, Baker did this two years ago, like see it, trust it, rip it, dude. Like see it, trust it and rip it. And I don't see, I didn't see that last year with Zach, where you just see it, trust it. I'm ripping this ball. And there's, you know, Justin Herbert's probably the best example of this as a young quarterback. That dude does not hesitate.

He is ripping the football and he's trusting his eyes. And I think Zach's got to get to that point. Part of it is the talent around him where he trusts what his eyes see. And the physical talent of the arm, then that's when it starts to take over. What do you think they did well in terms of creating space? for those guys last year, even with the limited talent. Do you feel like Michael Floyd did it, how would you rate just the job he did overall

and kind of making the game easier on his quarterback as a rookie? Yeah, I think he did a better job than the numbers present himself because of some of those easy misses that Zach had. I also would tell you that I think he got a lot better in that last third of the season once Zach went down and missed some time and then came back healthy. You know, it's hard to be really good as a play caller when your skill position is limited and your offensive line isn't great and your quarterback hasn't

played a ton and he's coming off injury and you know you're building you just think about it if you're Michael Floyd you build in some of these winners or you build in some of these easy throws and your quarterback's not hitting on then you're just like it's deflating right you're like what do I have to do to get us a four yard completion so I think he did a pretty good job of starting to marry run and pass concepts I think he did a pretty good job of understanding some of the stuff that Zach, you know, wasn't capable of doing last year. But having the infusion of talent and the infusion of size, I think is going to have a tremendous, I think that Mike's going to use Garrett a lot like his brother in Green Bay

uses Devante because I think they're very similar players. I expect the Jets to live in multiple tight end packages. I would. But it's a big year for both of those guys to really go. side by side, step by step together. I'm looking at the numbers right now. He took 25 sacks last year against man coverage. No one else in the NFL took more than 18.

He had a 16.8% snap rate when facing man coverage last season. That just feels like a clock thing, right? I mean, just hanging on to the ball in those situations because no one's open. And I just don't know how that gets solved outside of having better players. Totally. it's a little bit like the conversation that we will have that you will hear this about Justin Fields this year. Yeah, I know I will. For sure.

Daily. Held on to the ball too long. Of course. No human is open, you know. So I think that the, I'd also say this. And again, this will be a point that I make about Chicago a little bit. You know, you have got to, as a play caller, kind of. to be obsessed with first down, second down, first down.

Overly aggressive. Because when you get to third and four or third and five, you're like, you know, like, Robert, 20 years ago, dude, for me, when I was growing up in the NFL, it was like, let's just third manageable. Yeah. Third and two and third and three. And it's like, that sounds good, you know, because we had Andre Johnson in Houston and we had Calvin Johnson in Detroit.

We had Reggie Wayne and Pierre Garsohn and Indy. That sounds great. But when we don't have guys that that corner is going to. So I think that for Mike and for this offense, even with the infusion of talent, the more that they live in that first down, second down, first down mindset with the aggression play call-wise. That doesn't mean we're bombs away all the time. But the aggression of play-call-wise, I think that also helps the reality of the man-coverage situations. And he was also blitzed at Tom last year.

I think it was the sixth-highest rate in the league. And you stay out of those third downs, you stay out of teams bringing pressure and playing man-coverage against you when you struggled in it last year. For sure. I wanted to ask you this because talking to people here today about Burrow, one of their coaches said something really interesting, this idea that he's so good against the Blitz because he has such a good understanding of where all 11 guys are and why they're there. In the same way that Peyton Manning would are these really, really good quarterbacks. Do you think that some guys just have that where it just doesn't matter how much you study, but you just have a sense for how all the pieces fit together on the back end? Absolutely. I think part of it is because of the upbringing in the football world that he had. I think part of it is how much, you know, when he was at LSU, it was live in the empty world. Well, when you live in empty, you better be freaking dialed with your protections, champ, because, you know, that ball is going to come out to come out quickly. And you can really start to see how leverage, lean, and rotation impact where people can or can't come from. And you start to understand. And, you start to understand. And, You know, football is a simple game that we over-complicate, you know, and it's math.

And I think Joe does a great job of understanding the math of football is, you know, you only got 11, so there's got to be pieces that are connected. I also think one of the things that and young quarterback struggle with this, we all did, and a lot of them do, Joe has this beauty with knowing, all right, you blitzed me. Cool. I will just throw the ball right there for one yard because you're not. blitzing me to have a one-yard completion come out of my hand. You're blitzing me to create a bad play. You know, and I think Joe has got that, that kind of like, I don't want to call it selflessness,

but, you know, I used to have this coach say, sometimes the bear eats, you know, sometimes Joe just has this great ability to tip his cap at the defense and go, all right, you got that one. I'm not going to give you a bad play, but you got that one. And I know that you'll bring it again. And when you do, I'll figure out a way to gut you for it. I think there are two schools of thought about how much to put on a quarterback's plate as it relates to protections. There are some teams, a lot of the Kupiac-Shannan teams are like this honestly now where we're taking it all off the quarterback. He doesn't have a lot of autonomy at the line. He talked about it. The play caller is playing the position in a lot of ways.

Yep. Do you think that doing it that way can stunt the growth of your quarterback in other areas because it kind of feels like that way to me. Like Baker-Mayfield's lack of control and ownership at the line of scrimmage or even guy like Kirk Cousins who didn't have a ton of it over the last few years within that offense. I almost feel like you're putting your quarterback in a bind and in a box that ultimately may hinder him in the long run. I don't know how you feel about that. Absolutely.

Another great question or point. So this will take me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. So one of the beauties of play action pass based offenses is as a quarterback, I don't really need to know the coverage. I'm turning my back to the defense anyway, so potentially is going to change. And play action passes are more often than not progression based. One to two to three, dude. One to two to three. And so like you can take mental breathers, so to speaking at sometimes.

So that does stunt that a little bit or hinder that development of like, oh, I've got an underfront. And the safety's down strong side. That means more than likely a same strong safety pressure could potentially happen with the trap over the top and a dropping end. Am I protected? You know, where play action pass, especially in some of these schemes, it's like, well, that's not the quarterback's responsibility. Tail back, you've got to see that rotation or tight end, you know. I also think it's, it's again going back to how offenses are nowadays in youth football, high school football, and college football, is they're not getting. taught that much.

Dude, I just put it the other day a breakdown on Twitter in Seattle where Gino Smith, they've got five-man protection. It's a basic weak side linebacker pressure, and he takes the hot route. It's a 13-yard game. Later in the game, the same exact pressure versus the same exact protection. Drew Locke doesn't see the backside pressure off the will linebacker. And it's partly because at Missouri, he didn't do any of it, you know, and then he goes in and it's something that he's not getting necessarily taught in the NFL.

So I think that, like, you know, again, young quarterbacks, Joe was forced to learn protection in college. He was forced to know it at LSU and handle it. And, you know, he learned early on. All those cool past concepts don't matter unless I know exactly what's happening on the defensive pressure. And not only that, but I got four seconds to continue. communicate everybody up front knowing it and then we can go play ball.

Yeah, and it feels like those offenses that are a little bit more spread out with the quarterbacks operating in shotgun and has that kind of field general aspect to it. Those guys, the growth is there. You see the progress from them in that way. They don't run into as many walls. Josh Allen is the same kind of deal. Like, he controls everything there. And I just, there's something to that.

And it's a little chicken and the egg, right? Like, are these guys doing it because they have the capacity to do it? or because they've been given the reins, does it grow their capacity? And I don't really know which way that flows all the time. Yeah, it's probably very individualized. And you know another thing too, Robert? Like when you're a young quarterback and you live in that world a little bit, you come to the reality of like, fudge, dude.

If I get this crap wrong, I'm going to get my butt kicked. You have to protect yourself. Yeah, mommy and daddy can't come and hold your hand on the field. You know, that's a little bit of the play action game. you know, again. And we talked about this. I remember talking about this, maybe not you and I, but with Justin last year in Chicago. It's like, you know, because I thought the game plan versus Cleveland was an atrocity because everybody was incapable of handling it all. And, you know, it's the play action world holds your hand a little bit when it comes to those protections where

the alternative is like, let's go touch the stove and learn very quickly. Well, that's the problem is that, when you have a coaching staff that doesn't really come from that world, it's hard to just jump right back into it. And that's why those teams that kind of bounce around are interesting. And that's why Getsi being there, I feel like they're going to be able to kind of put those training wheels on him in a way that is maybe limiting in the short term, but I still think it's beneficial for him this year just to survive.

And I would tell you this too. You know, talking about Joe in the Cincinnati situation is it's also easier when you got players in the outside that you feel cable. about you know like that that's part of the two is like it's not only just can the quarterback handle it it's like all right do we have a guy that can win in versus man coverage or do we have guys that can do something with the bar those guys smart enough to know like oh i'm hot this is this is the type of hot that i have and and whatnot so it's it's not just strictly can we because of the quarterback last guy i wanted to talk about i think we feel pretty good about him at least on this

show in some of these situations with the between the ears stuff is Trevor lawrence and i i feel better about him taking this step than maybe some of these other guys on the list. But where do you think Trevor Lawrence needs to be better this year based on what you saw last season? Yeah, not only last season, but also preseason week one. I believe that Trevor is such a phenomenal, fundamental talent that sometimes he's too fundamentally reliant. That's really interesting.

I totally see that. You know, simply put, like there's a lot. moments where there's this Carson Palmer robotic aspect to him for a guy who's such a freakazoid athlete talent. You know, and I think sometimes he, it almost like, it's like watching a person just like, string so hard for perfection physically, you know, and I just some, I want to see, and I think Doug's going to pull this out of him a little bit with some of the movement, the RPO game of like, dude, you don't, you don't have to get your feet perfectly in a line every single play. And I think that's where he makes a big jump. And I would say this the second

thing, and I've said this a little bit this offseason is how much did you really learn last year of what you can't do in the league? You know, like, because last year I was Trevor, go, go, figure it out. Like be ultra aggressive. Throw 50 interceptions. Like your team's going to stink anyway. You're going to have to figure out what you can do in this league, throw wise versus current coverage, whatever. And I want to see how much he really learned from that experience. How do you think he fits with Doug just based on what you've seen from Peterson offensively and what they were in Philadelphia? Yeah, I think that Jacksonville in 22 looks a lot like Philadelphia did in 17, at least schematically. You know, I do believe that it'll be very much so a college

type of offense, you know, where, you know, it is very RPO-based. It is quarterback movement-based. It is getting the ball out of the quarterback's hands quickly. And then on third down, it is going to be, hey, go make a play. Like, you know, like go, go be a physical talent that you are. I don't necessarily, they got a lot of these, it's not all that different than Miami. Like, they got a lot of these pieces, right? They've got Lavishka.

They've got Travis E.T.N. They've got Kirk now. Some of these guys that are peace players that they can move around. And that's a lot of what he had in Philadelphia. So I think that we watched, you know, and Trevor also, by the way, was a master running the RPO in college at what they did. Yeah, that's all they did. So I think that there's that good marriage there, that good kind of lateral agreement there. So I would imagine it looking a lot like Carson Wentz's 2017 Philadelphia season.

I remember you and I had a conversation a couple of years ago. We were talking about quarterback development and this idea that some of these guys who've been through these camps and been to these quarterback trainers for 10 years, it was going to lead to a little bit more robotic stylists. Stylistically, it was going to lead to more robotic players. And that kind of push and pull of these guys were more fluid athletes based on some of these guys who've done it forever. Going back to Josh Allen, I almost feel like Josh Allen never doing.

that shit and never being a full-time quarterback his entire life has been a benefit for him in that way because he moves, he is so fluid and twitchy. There is nothing robotic about the way he plays. To the point that I was talking to Joe Brady about this last week, I found it so interesting. There's less defined footwork within the Buffalo offense. It's for a lot of different reasons. They let their receivers read certain things and a lot of that. But there are elements of the footwork of their offense where Case Keenham came in and he was like,

wait, I can do that. It doesn't have to be the same every single time. And leaning into that kind of fluidity at the position, I feel like, is a really good way to get the most out of some of these athletes. I think Trevor is, Trevor and Josh are very similar when it comes to like their physical makeup and their athletic ability. but one is the guy that, you know, played pickup for basically his whole life and one, the guy that has had that private training for a long. Patrick was the same way. I used to say this about Patrick. The beauty was it seemed like his parents never got him to private teaching because it was often like, hey, this dude's in the backyard.

You know, when there's that there's that kind of that uncaged beauty or out of a cage beauty. So, yeah, and I don't know how, because the devil's advocate conversation, Robert, is like, Well, why would I not want to be fundamentally sound? You know, like, because we, well, sometimes we'll sit here and be like, well, this guy's got to be fundamentally better. But, you know, the guy like, you know, is an interesting person to talk about in relation is Mack Jones. Like, Max really fundamentally sound, but he's also how he has to win. It's all he has. Yeah, but he does have a little bit of like this, like this loose fluid part to his game where it isn't just so.

you know, copy and paste. And, you know, I think that, you know, again, I'm a huge Trevor fan, but, you know, the ability to take, you know, drills are great and they're necessary. But football is, you know, a game that is very much so non-coordinated. And I think the more that he's given the freedom to do that, the encouragement to do that, the weight off my shoulders to do that in a way. And knowing, like, all right, it's not needed. Like, I think he becomes a more consistent high-end player.

Could you build that into the offense? Just like those plays that are a little bit less structured, like getting him out of the pocket, things like that. Is that how you do it? Yeah, movement, RPO. Like, I think that, and I would be, you know, like, if I could crystal ball, watch the early parts of their games. You know, the early parts of their games are going to be,

you're going to see quarterback getting on the move of a ton. You're going to see the changing of the launch point. You're going to see the RPO. You'll see the quarterback run game utilized a little bit just to get him into that flow and that that mindset of it. You know, because I also would tell you this, I don't know how much they want progression-based past concepts in their offense. Because like if you go watch preseason game one, he misses two balls over the field high that because he's getting to number three. And you watch him, dude. It's like watching, it's like watching a boxer, so to speak.

like he goes one feet are perfect two feet are perfect three it looks like he's perfectly in position and it's just the it's like this desire to do everything by the paper or by the the the drawing you know i think getting him to be a little bit more um you know structured with his um hey versus cover one the ball goes here versus cover two we're reading high low versus cover three we're inside out, I think it will allow a little bit more of like the freedom in his physical talent. Just like the tension out of his shoulders a little bit. It's really funny. When you watch these guys like Josh Allen is loose, you watch him around.

It's really funny. And I think that I've really come to appreciate that more when you watch a guy. Because arm strength looks and feels different, right? Physical talent manifests differently with each of these individual guys. And that's the thing about Josh Allen. It's just so wild is that there is that springiness to everything about him. what that allows you to be offensively. You see it.

You feel it. Yeah. And he, like there's the, you know, when we were talking about, maybe it was Jalen and the lack of maybe twitchiness, you know, physically, Josh is that sudden flick of the wrist, snap of a ball coming out of my hand type of player. Trevor, it really isn't that guy. And I, you know, I taught, I said the name before Carson, but I remember Carson being,

when I watched Carson as a young player, I was a guy. that dude's created in a lab. He's a statue. He is like a, yes. Yeah, you know, everything looks perfect all the time. And I think that he grew into that a little bit more of the loose athletic aspect of his game. And Trevor's got to get there. I think Doug pulls it out of them.

Awesome. That's all I got. What a fantastic fun conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. You got 10 million things going on. No, there. Very much. I love it.

Thank you. Really good to chat with you. Really good to catch up. you we will 100% do this again at some point good deal bud be well all right it's time now to chat with one of our illustrious bangles writers here at the athletic ball dener junior how you doing buddy i'm doing good you know last time we sat here like this we were uh at radio row at the super bowl yes and uh i was one of my favorite conversations of all last year i really enjoyed it and uh now it's just training camp and we're just it's like back at square one you know well not really

I mean, this team has went to the Super Bowl last year. It's extremely different, it feels like. I mean, I remember when we were sitting here, the last time we had this conversation during camp, we had it up in the press box of the stadium because there was still COVID protocols and we weren't allowed in the building. And we were sitting there kind of wondering like,

you know, you spent all this money on defense. Are they really that good? And, you know, Burroughs coming back and the offenses look like shit, all of training camp. And then he becomes pretty quickly, one of the best quarterbacks and players in football. Jermar Chase, who couldn't catch the ball. the last time you and I had a conversation in this building,

went on to become one of the most electric players in the entire league and the entire dynamic of the bank of organization shifted over a five-month period. Yeah, surreal. Still surreal, honestly. I mean, the stuff that goes on, you know, you were today out at the Kettering health practice fields outside Paycor Stadium near the Alta Fiber. I forgot about Pay Core Stadium.

Yeah. Oh, my God. All of that sold within the last couple of months. You know, they, I mean, this just, it's been a business boom of, everybody wants a piece. I mean, this, this team, they had 28,000 people at the back together Saturday practice in the stadium. I know there were games in the exact, beginning of Zach Taylor era, the end of Marvin Lewis era, where they were not that many butts in the seats on Sundays. They went from the lowest point ever in their season ticket base to now a waiting list. the absolute bell of the ball in the city, a connection with the city that we've never seen before.

And they're, you know, rolling in money and putting it, stashing it away in their pockets for escrow in the future, knowing exactly it's going to be all Joe Burroughs before we're gone too far. Speaking of money, earlier today before we started recording this, Derwin James signed a four-year $76.4 million extension, averaging 19.1.1. a year. I want to quickly talk about that because it relates to something that is currently going on in this building. Not surprising that he would reset the market. He is an incredibly important player to what the chargers are. The chargers are in their window right now, trying to throw some money around and get the best players they can on the field. It's interesting to me that we're now at a place where I think the highest paid corner league makes $21 million and now the highest paid safety he makes 19.4, that gap has shrunk.

And when you think about the way that Derwin has used, he played 100 slot snaps last year. They use him all over the place. He's more than just a safety. And I feel like that position is rising in prominence because the way those guys are used, and that extends to what's going on with Jesse Bates right now, who probably wants a contract in that similar range

because of how he's used by this team. Yeah, I mean, that gap, that has closed is the gap that kept the Bengals from signing Jesse Bates. I mean, the Bengals were willing to pay him, you know, 14, 15 per year with low guarantees because that's their thing. They're not going to do a bunch of guarantees. No matter how many paycourt stadiums there are. It doesn't matter.

Well, I think it will change for one person, but that'll be about it. Maybe to. We'll get to that. But, I mean, you know, you talk about like that just not, they weren't willing to go there with Jesse and they drafted Dax Hill who maybe Dax Hill is there you know he is much more of if you're talking about a Derwin James type in the way that you can deploy him to different places on the field that's his eventual skill set as he grows into it right now they're just trying to they're loving that he's getting every rep as the number one safety in place of Bates who hasn't shown up except for in the suite at the preseason game uh this past weekend uh oddly it's a weird one it feels like you have something better to do yeah I you would think so it And then putting it out there on Instagram on purpose. It was a weird turn for what, you know, I think everyone understands what it is. Like, you're going to come back, you're going to play, you're going to collect $13 million,

and then you're going to hit the free agent market next year. You're going to make a boatload of money. A lot of it guaranteed somewhere else. Like, that's where this ends up. And I think both sides had played their cards already on that. Like, it was kind of decided. And, but it just kind of has dragged on a little bit and been a little bit of circusy of late. But they would have loved to got it done, but they weren't going to go.

This was no, where the safety market went, the Bengals checked off two stops back. They weren't willing to go there because they have other more important positions that are going to be on their radar very soon. And that's where we are with Joe Barrow and Jamar Chase, the fact that Joe Burroughs contract is going to be astronomical, right? I mean, we're at a place now where they have two guys that they know are going to reset the market at their positions at some point down the road. borough sooner than Jemar Chase. And you're marking that, I think, is probably something that's in their minds. I will say, they could probably afford Jesse Bates for two years before they have to pay other of those guys. Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. I just think that, you know, they are, they're not going to change their philosophy. They're not going to be different in the way they

structure contracts. They're not going to be different in the way they value players. They've They've always done this. You know, Katie Blackburn has not gotten probably enough credit for the way that she has always kept the Bengals roster flexible. Yeah. She wants from year to year to be able to pay who they need to pay, go into free agency if they need to extend if they need to by keeping the guarantees down to a minimum. And the thing is, you have these occasional fights that happen. They do and they're prominent. And the Bengals, people like to clown the Bengals for it.

And I don't disagree with it to a certain extent, excuse me. However, you know, they sign a lot of people, though. They sign plenty of people, and they get them under the structures they want, and they get flexibility under the cap and flexibility with their money to be able to have it where they feel like they can always make whatever moves they want to make every year. Because the league changes so much, and that's a tenant of the way they do things. And so they're not going to change that because Jesse Bates wants a lot of guaranteed money. money and they're just going to draft Daxhill and and Tyson Anderson in the fifth round,

another safety and move forward and be happy to have Jesse back to come play this year. But for now, you know, that's just part of who they are. Now, that might change for Burrow. I think you can make the exception for the quarterback and still stand by your guns with everybody else because it's such a different, such an anomaly. But, you know, they feel like that's always going to be important to the way they operate around here. Maybe they're detriment sometimes, but for the most part, they feel like it pays off.

Quarterback is very good. Today was his first practice back. I was lucky enough to be here for his first 11-on-11 work, at least. Yeah. Since having his amygdectomy, he looks like Joe Burrow. There was a couple just like absolutely gorgeous deep shots to Jamar Chase. I mean, we know that about this team at this point. We know the personnel is going to be a collection of young offensive talent that can keep them in games.

The question was always going to be what the offensive line looked like this year. They went out and signed Lyle Collins. They signed Alex Kappa. They signed Ted Karras. The left guard situation is really like the biggest question your day to day. I'm sure it's the thing that you guys are watching who's with the ones. You're watching who's playing well. They're grinding every rep.

They want to know about every rep of fourth round pick Cordell Voulson. How many times Jackson Carman screwed up in the last game. And, you know, and so, yeah, that's the one spot. I mean, look, I, I, I, thought they played that massive problem as well as you could play it in understanding the average, you know, be average, no weak links. And a certain point you have to bet on development. I mean, they drafted a guy in the second round. They drafted a guy in the fourth round. They drafted another guy, Deontay Smith in the fourth round last year. They drafted a guy in the six round last year,

Trey Hill, who's a guard center. I mean, at a certain point in this league, you can't pay everybody. and you do have to have guys that develop in spots. They need that out of one spot, not two, not three right now. And so they went, they spread it across and focused on getting three solid players and not overspending on one great one or two really good ones so that they could be solid across the line because it's all borough needs for the most part when you have those weapons. So we'll see how the battle plays out.

But it does seem like their line should be at a level where you're just going to have such a higher percentage of clean pockets, you know, whatever that ends up being 12% more opportunities for Burrow to throw a deep ball to chase rather than have to check it down or spike it into the ground. I mean, over the course of a year, it's huge. Well, I think that when you're thinking about, right, where does this offense need to go based on what defenses are going to do to them? Those easy answers, those, it's single high, fuck it, Jamar's down there somewhere. That's not going to happen anymore. Like, it's just teams are not going to give them the answers to the test before it starts because they know he's going to take it every single time. You're going to see, I think, a lot more of those situations where they're putting a roof over them

and they're saying, we dare you to beat us with 10, 12 play drives. And that's something that a lot of offenses around the league have had to adjust to. And the way they adjust to that to me is going to be the biggest question about them that doesn't relate to their offensive line personnel. And you saw, I don't know how specific I can get with the things they did today, but they're going to find some layups to Jamar Chase within the structure of this offense. And I think that combined with, you want to play those shells, we'll run it. And when you have the offensive line improvements that they do,

I think those are the kind of the two pillars of how they can potentially be different on offense this year. And then the third one is, if we're not going to get those easy looks where we can attack outside the numbers against one-on-one coverage, how do we find explosive down-field plays? those have to be longer developing plays. Those are not going to be instantaneous decisions and throws. And in order to access that, you need better protection up front. So it all makes sense as a plan. We'll see what happens when it all has to come together.

Yeah, it's going to be curious. I wrote about the evolution of Jamar Chase. And it's really the evolution of this offense because it's, you know, so many of these offenses, what do you do with your number one guy when you have him? And last year, you know, this time, you mentioned last time we were talking about stripes on the football and drops and, is he a bus? Should they have taken Sewell? Right?

I mean, that was the conversation. It's amazing. What happens to the year? And then he ends up having, you know, one of the best rookie seasons we've ever seen by a receiver. And midway, so they weren't trying to put too much on his plate early last year. It's the same thing they would Joe. It's you, you haven't come in. It's like, we're going to play empty.

We're going to let you do your shit because we want you to be comfortable early. And then grow it. Same thing with the first half of the year with Chase. Yeah. And so you see that. And he obviously blows up and he went from just catching nothing but deep balls to all of a sudden he's catching underneath, catch and run stuff. You know, like the 82 yarder against Baltimore has famously been replayed a bunch and the Chiefs game where he runs away from the entire defense on a quick comeback. I mean, that type of stuff, you know, started, was obvious, but they really waited.

They didn't really start utilizing him up and down the formation until the end of the season. Yes. So the first 12 weeks of the season, his slot percentage, was 11%. The last nine all the way to the Super Bowl, it was up at 22%. His actual slot target percentage. So of those snaps, he doubled the percentage of times that Burrow was looking for him just of those snaps. That was the tip of the iceberg with Jamar Chase was what they did those last nine games. And so they feel like they had all offseason. They brainstormed. They concoct new ways to work him in so that every time the defense is looking at the Bengals offense saying,

well, where's Chase? Where's number one? And everything can then play off of that. And you get so much more of the quick hit stuff to Chase running out of a slot against a linebacker in the Super Bowl. You know, creating separation. I mean, that type of stuff, you feel like you can get that every week. And that can help those 10 to 12 play drives be five to seven play drives because of his catch and run ability. and because of the mismatches you can create, not just for him,

but for Tyler Boyd and for T. Higgins off of that. He's such a cool player in that when I was talking to the people today about, well, where did you look for ideas everywhere? Yeah. Because the way that Devante gets used, the way that Debo gets used, the way the Cooper Cup gets used, he can do all that shit. Justin Jefferson, yeah, absolutely. There's nothing that's off the table for the ways that they can deploy him

because of his body type, the way he moves, he can run choice routes. It's not, he can do everything. And that's what's so cool about it. That's the crazy thing about his rookie season last year. Of all of the dudes that had at least 80 receptions and 1,000 yards last year, there were 28 of them, he was third from the bottom in slot percentage. That's not who he is. He is a do everything anywhere guy.

He will be up in the middle. They're going to use him so. He's going to be such a more dynamic player just because he can be now. They're not going to hold him back for the first, you know, three-quarter. of the season. And so, yeah, because he can do, I think Zach Taylor told me, he said, look, if we didn't have Tyler Boyd,

Jamar Chase could be Cooper Cup. Yeah. Like, you could play, he could be one of the best slot receivers in football without question. And that is the type of player that is. We don't need him to be that because you have Tyler Boyd. And so you can do it and treat him as a kind of a chess piece. So it's going to be really, really interesting to see how his role evolves this year,

how much they start moving them around even more and what that is. ends up doing for defenses that, as you said, are just going to be trying to put a roof on the top. Really feels like the only thing with Joe, when it comes to improvement in areas where he has to get better, just eating too many sacks last year and eating too many sacks in bad situations and just kind of make him live within himself a little bit more. I feel like that has to be the conversation that they had with him this offseason. Other than that, really not a huge need to spend a lot of time on him. Like he's one of the best five quarterbacks in the league. Yeah. I mean, the big thing was, and I think where his lack of comfort came from,

and this was part of their off-season conversation when they plotted how to go forward, was he feels like he can handle pressure off the edges. You know, he can step up. His pocket presence is amongst the best in the league. He can get squirt out of there and make a lot of plays. He can see that. They can scheme that.

The problem was, in the Tennessee game, was example 1A and obviously the Super Bowl, but when it comes right up the middle, has nowhere to go. It eliminates his superpower of pocket presence and ability to work back there. And he just ends up, you know, going into a fetal tuck, unable to get away. And that's why it was so important for them. They've never paid a guard. Ever. Like ever, ever. They have never valued the position. They have never cared about it. They have never paid it. And they went out on day one a free agency and paid Alex Kappa to come play guard and Ted Karris as a center guard

combo who's going to play center here but could move over to you in a heartbeat like that's that is so out of character because Joe Burrow is saying secure my middle and and let me work I can deal with edge issues but secure my middle and and I can tear it up and I think that's kind of the eating sacks portion of the program is I think that's the that's why they think of It will happen a lot less because he'll be able to work it a little bit easier. On defense, the little tiny tweaks, you know, personnel-wise, I think the dropping the Dax Hill into this, I'm going to be fascinated by him, Bell, Bates on the field together.

Yeah. And I think they will do that. I think you'll see a decent amount of that because it gets them the most athletes possible. And the amount of, I loved, I went back and rewatched a couple of those games before getting here today. Going back and rewatching the Chiefs game, going back and rewatching some other defensive of things they did during the playoffs. The specificity of the game plans, the flexibility they had on the back end.

It's really cool to watch. That team is so much better coached on defense than I expected them to be coming into the season based on how unremarkable they had been at times over the previous couple years of this regime. So now you have a little bit more flexibility on the back end, and you have guys like Joseph Osai dropped in here who didn't play last year. It just feels like the plan on defense is similar to what it was a year ago with a tiny bit more leeway and a little bit more juice if I could kind of pin it down. Yeah, no

totally. I mean, they made a real focus in the next wave of players they're trying to bring in here on adding to that versatility. They felt like they have so much of it already back there and they really were able to weaponize it particularly

in the playoffs to befuddle teams and cause turnovers and they're just, Dax Hill is a perfect example of that. But, you know, people don't realize I mean, maybe they do. I don't know being so close to it. It's obvious to us.

This defense was really good last year during the year. They were eighth in the league and points allowed per drive. And then they took it to another level in the playoffs with all the turnovers. And I think people were quick to that didn't pay much attention to the Bengals to the end to pinpoint them as, you know, turnover lucky in the playoffs. And that was a defense that made plays all year, all year. And Chita Beuze was one of the most underrated players in football. is a legit, well, certainly last year was a legit number one and outside of one injury riddled season in Dallas has played at a really high level and took it to another one here.

And they just really found a fit there. And Trey Hendrickson and DJ Reeder and B.J. Hill and same. I mean, these are all guys that are all productive in their own rights. This is not something that just happened by luck. And they're all back. You have this continuity. They didn't lose anything. They didn't lose anything.

Larry Ogun Joby, who they replaced with B.J. Hill for, you know, who B.J. Hill, I would argue, actually played better than Larry Ogun Joby last year. And so you're talking about a team that so much is on exotic game plans, versatile skill sets, things that can change from week to week. And now they all are in their second year in the system. They were all new last year. It was a whole free agency spree. So the idea that they're all going to have a better, better feel for the game plan, I think people are really underrating. how good this Bengals defense can really be. Because when you think about them, you don't think about that. Do you think about Burrough and Higgins and Boyd and chasing? And that's totally understandable from, you know, a 30,000-foot view. But from inside the building, the defense is what carried him to the Super Bowl. And the defense can legitimately be really good. I mean, would it be crazy to say bringing everybody back and adding some young pieces

that they couldn't go from eighth and points per drive to fourth? it's not it's it's really not i the only thing i worry about is just sam harbord's a fine player it's just the amount of like pass rush juice they have up front and how creative they'll get in manufacturing pressure not necessarily blitzing just the ways that they're going to be creative up front i think that they did some of the stuff last year with those simulated pressures and fire zones that tennessee did really well how much of that is incorporated in the game plan And I have a lot of faith in the staff to do that to say like, all right, what are the interesting ideas around the league? How do we incorporate that into what we do?

Because they have smart, versatile players and they can deploy them in any way that they feel like is appropriate for the game that they're playing and the team that they're playing. And there's a lot of value in that. Yeah. And the other question that I have is, what does the second corner situation look like? Yeah. Like Eli Apple is fine, but, you know, the guy that drafted in the second round, is that something where by the end of the season, their best five, six defensive backs don't include Eli. Apple. I think that would probably be a good outcome for them. Yeah, and I don't think it's a likely one. I mean, you, you, Cam Taylor Britt out of Nebraska,

you know, it's a really underrated storyline here has been he had a core muscle injury that's basically wiped out his entire season. That's brutal. It feels almost unrecoverable. It's different when you're, you know, you're of Derek Stingley type. You know, you're a freak and you can just step in and play. I mean, this is a guy that the chances of him succeeding as a dude picked and at pick 60 is not super in rear one anyway. Now you take away all his preseason reps. There was supposed to be a competition with Eli Apple that's non-existent now. And it feels like you're where are those going to come from?

You're never going to really have a chance to unseat him unless Apple gets hurt or starts playing truly terribly. Apple has played fine. He's played at the level he was at last year, which is the best of his career and totally out of nowhere. I certainly at this point last year did not think he was going to be a factor or any good at all. and he was more than good enough for them to have a decent group. So, yeah, I'm with you. I mean, it's clearly the spot teams are going to try to attack. But, you know, if you have an okay second corner as your biggest worry,

I think they feel pretty good about that. Same conversation we had about the left guard. Like, this is, we're at a place now where this team is at the table. And that is a very different place than they were at this time last year. And it's fun. I mean, when you have a court like that and even like Burrow getting back today and talking to you guys and just. It feels different here, and it should feel different here, because you know you have the guy and you have a couple other pieces on offense that are elite or borderline elite.

People like T. Higgins, it's like, let's fucking go. Yeah, they have, they've just, they've drafted so well. They've made so many. I mean, you just don't see teams hit in free agency. They're throwing 95 miles an hour in free agency over the last two years. The only screw up is Trey Wains. That's it. That's it.

And they're, and they could afford three Trey Wains is because they have the borough contract and hitting on so many of them. You know, it's wild. I've never seen anything like it. And it's even wilder when you consider that they just never participated in the past. They never really decided that Freedency was their thing. You know, credit to the mesh between Zach Taylor and his staff and the scouting staff, Duke Tobin and his team here because... You can name them all in three seconds if you want to. I can.

There's six of them. I mean, yeah, I wrote extensively about this before the Super Bowl because it's really... It's a big deal. When I say that, it's not like, who cares about the coaches and the staff? Well, here, the coaches are a big part of the scouting. They actually, people might not realize this, but the Bengals actually pushed back their entire offseason program, one, because they played the longest season NFL history, and they were playing in mid-February.

But two, they wanted to give their coaches a chance to spend all of the month leading up to the draft, focus solely on the draft because they are in the room a major part of it, and their mesh with the scouts is a major part of their job because they want to draft guys that the coaches want and know what they're getting. They want there to be synergy between those two sides. It's a big deal to them. Their scouting staff is small, but they use their coaches to take place of other teams that have bigger scouts. So they just didn't do the OTAs. They didn't have any off-season program until May. And they only had six OTAs and they barely did anything in those. They basically took the off season off. But it was that beginning.

part was all because they wanted the coaches to focus more on the draft. And it's been working. You know, it's been working with this staff coming in. They've had a real nice ability to draft and find free agents that fit what the coaches specifically want. It took them some time. They had to weed out those that were still hearing things. But, you know, you saw it come together last year and I think they had another nice cycle of it this year. Bangles Optimism. A lot of it going around my man it's weird i'm it's still i'm uncomfortable like i've always people called me paul downer junior around here for a while just just just just because it was always like it was that was the point like you had to be and for so long and so i'm still kind of weird you know

talking about how good things are going it's still kind of uncomfortable but you know it's hard to deny it at this point i mean the proof it was was in the pudding last year and when you got the quarterback, you got a chance and they're going to have the quarterback for however many years he decides to sign for. And a quarterback with the bullshit fairy dust that he seems to, right? It's just like a little bit different in a way that it's hard not to appreciate it. He's perfect for here. He doesn't want the big spotlight. He doesn't want the big market. He loves the, he likes football and he doesn't want, you know, despite, you know, everybody wanting to talk about his fits and his glasses and his jackets and things like that. Like it's not who he is. He's just kind of a doesn't really like any

You can like loud clothes and not want to be a super famous person. Totally agree. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Totally agree. And he has this entire building, you know, on total lockdown, man. Like he drives the bus and everybody follows his lead. And so there's no denying it. And the Bengals, you know, as long as Mike Brown has been around here, you can say a lot of things about him,

he's always paid quarterbacks and he's always paid them early. he paid Carson Palmer at the first possible second he could after they drafted him the day the 2005 season ended. The regular season ended. And then he paid Andy Dalton early and gave him $96 million right before his 2015 breakout season. Like Mike loves quarterbacks and he has never had a problem paying them. So prepare for the number that you see come to Joe Burrow because he's never had one quite like this. this and he knows it and he's more than happy to pay it to him and that thing is is definitely coming he called it we see the train coming down the tracks he said that before the uh the media

lunch and before camp and and that's because he's more than happy to hop on that train and see how far it'll take him congrats to joe bro happy for him good for him yeah and uh you know all the charities that he supports that are about to get loaded up paul the inter junior always look to see you my friend really appreciate the time always fun to chat we'll do this again soon talk you later all we got. Thank you so much to Dan. Thank you to Paul. Really enjoyed those conversations. Hope you guys did as well. We will be back tomorrow with me and my buddy Nate Tice. We're looking forward to catching up with Nate. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to The Athletic where you can read Paul's work

and all of the work of our team writers, Theathletic.com slash football show if you do not have a subscription. Now is the time. You have a fantasy draft in like two days. I know you do. If you want up-to-date camp info, who's looked good, who hasn't, who's in, who's out, this is the place to get it. Athletic.com slash football show. We'll talk to you guys tomorrow. Appreciate you listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.