The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Which NFC team has the best supporting cast around its quarterback?

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

In the second and final edition of our annual Supporting Casts miniseries, we flip our attention over to the NFC where, frankly, things are a whole lot more loaded. Is it as obvious as it might seem at the top? Who was the breakthrough team from last season? How many different times will Derrik Klassen shock Robert Mays? The guys rank the 16 NFC supporting casts on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.0:00 Welcome to the show3:17 Commanders5:08 Giants9:10 Panthers12:27 Saints18:27 Cardinals23:09 Falcons29:24 Buccaneers34:17 Packers42:37 Seahawks51:06 Lions57:00 Eagles1:01:16 Vikings1:05:50 Cowboys1:09:10 49ers1:15:57 Bears1:19:34 RamsHost: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerSenior Producer: Katy DuffySocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @RobertMaysTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Ranking NFC supporting casts today. We did the AFC last week with me and Derek Classen doing the NFC today. Just a quick note about the methodology here. This is a combination not only of the players involved and the offensive line quality, the talent level at the skill position players, the talent level at running back. This also takes into account just the overall environment and ecosystem with these teams.

So what are the play callers and what are the offensive staffs overall, doing to lift the quarterback. So just one like little wrinkle that makes things a little bit, but I'd just say honestly subjective compared to what other versions of this exercise could look like. I think the same way it was with the AFC and the NFC, I'm probably weighing some of the environmental and ecosystem concerns maybe a little bit heavier than Derek is and explains a couple of the gaps that we have in our list. But there are also a couple fun areas of disagreement on this show with us having teams higher or lower than the other person. So let's get to our NFC supporting cast rankings right now.

Knocked out the AFC teams last week. Today we are coming back with the NFC supporting casts. Derek, before we get into our lists, just a overall blanket statement. The NFC supporting casts are much better than the AFC supporting cast. That's the first thing I want to say before we dig into this exercise. Way better. They were even down to like my like mid-teens. I was still like, I can see a pretty good.

case for this offense being like pretty damn good. And so I thought top to bottom, I think the bottom is much better in this group. And I even think the elite teams at the top are just like generally more exciting. Like, you know, the Broncos are good. The bills are good. But some of these teams at the top of the NFC are like, man, they've got some talent. There are some teams where I put them in a spot and I was like, I can't believe I have them here. But when I actually thought about the list, I was like, who would I put them higher than? Similar to the AFC. And this is a way for me to just automatically start apologizing for some of my rankings. I do have like some defined tier breaks and some teams within those tiers that I think is

important. Like there's one, there's a, again, there's a couple teams that especially compared to where they'd be over the last couple years, the last three or four years combined, it's like, holy shit, that feels low. But at the same time, they're kind of in that tier. I think that's where they belong. So I think we will have some fun disagreements here. But I overall, I think that the quality of this group is so much better than the AFC that

even if a number next to a team feels a little bit gross, just understand that there is some inflation and, I guess, deflation happening with the NFC compared to what the AFC a list look like. That's the thing. I feel like if we did like, if we combined these lists at the end, it did like the full 32, whoever my 13 on this list is might only be like 19th or 20th overall. Like I think there are some pretty good groups even down the bottom of this list.

So we'll start with that, but then let's just. shit on a couple teams here that are at the bottom of this list. So who did you have at 16 in the NFC? Somebody had to be there. I actually, even for as generally talented as I think the NFC is, I actually pretty comfortably came to the Washington Commanders. I didn't think it was that close. I mean, there are a couple other teams that are not so great, but I just, the Washington commanders, I get the offensive line. We can see the upside case, right? Like Laramie Me Tunsell is still very good. Sam Cosme is good. They spent the first round pick on Josh Connerly. We'll see what's some of that stuff. But I still think it is an

imperfect unit. And they didn't add any skill talent really. Like the only guys that they added were Chigo Conquo, a third round slot only wide receiver and Rashad White at running back, who is nice, but more of a role player. Like I just, it was hard for me to figure out like who they added this off

season that felt like could be a pillar rather than like a role player kind of just patching some things up. Also had them at 16. I have two teams to me that were kind of firmly at the bottom. And I actually think that there are some weird similarities between those two teams that we can dig into when I get to the team at 15. I also had Washington and 16. It's McCorn and not much else at receiver. You add a

pass catching tight end and a passing down running back. Let's call Rashad White that because of the past protection that he gives you. It's fine, right? But they're still absolutely in need of another weapon. And the offensive line has a chance to be a solid group and is probably the selling point here. But even that, it's like, all right, well, you get a full season of Healthy Cosme. That's nice. Jeremy Tunsell's still elite. Connolly was better in the back half of last year. But Chris Paul was like a decent kind of mid-season find. It's like, all right, that we like our group better with him at Left Guard.

He didn't have a market in free agency. You're downgrading at center by going from Biotish to Nick Allegretty. And we haven't even mentioned the fact that there's a play caller we've never seen do this before. There is a chance that David Blow is really good, but it's a question mark at the very least. And so Washington, for me, was a pretty easy 16. The team I had at 15, I think there are some parallels and similarities. Again, offensive line has a chance to be a relative strength. It's dramatically improved to years past.

But I think that kind of means firmly top half of the league rather than some elite group. One true number one receiver and then kind of everybody else. And their big moves this off season was adding a pass catching tight end. It's the Giants. The Giants in Washington feel like they're very similar in a lot of these considerations. and so beyond the similarities, I think in terms of overall quality, that's why I had them paired together here at the bottom compared to all the other teams that we're going to talk about.

They are also who I had at 15. And so I think the only reason I kind of gave them the slight edge is that I know there's a lot of questions with Malik Neighbors' Health, but in the world that we can look at where maybe he is healthy and does look like himself, he is at least like much better, not like significantly better than Terry McCorm, but he does give you, I think, more of a pillar. And then even like to me, Darius Slayton is a better. number two receiver than anybody that Washington has. I would even say Isaiah likely and between him

and Chigaconkwo, like, I think likely is a better player. Like the skill talent is a little bit better, even if like this is a team where running back room concerns are huge just because of like Cam Scadaboo's health. Like I think he's a cool player, but we just don't know how healthy he's going to be. And then Tyrone Tracy is kind of just an okay role player. The offensive line, I'm, they are actually a unit where I'm trying to piece together how good I actually think they're going to be. obviously Andrew Thomas is Andrew Thomas, and I really liked Francis Maui Noah coming out of college, but he's going to be kicking inside, which is obviously not what he did in college. I think he can do it. And then he's got some of the back concerns. I think Jermaine Illuminauador is good, but probably like a touch overrated. Like I think he's fine, but I think we thought that there was going to be a pretty big market for him. And it, I don't think it was as insane as it could have been. So I think the offensive line would be good, but not like, I'm probably with you. Like, if they're like the 15th best offensive line, that's probably a good outcome for. them. I think that's about what I would expect. And if that's the selling point of the unit overall, in a very crowded field in this conference, I think that's how they get pushed down as far as they

have been. And similar, I'll bring it back around to the play caller and the infrastructure overall. We've talked a lot about Nagy this offseason. And it's an interesting offensive staff. I mean, you have two former head coaches with Brian Calhoun in there now. You have three former offensive coordinators because Greg Roman is a part of this staff. But I still have my doubts about how it all comes together. If this was Todd Mocken, instead of Matt Nagy, I would be more enthusiastic and excited about it. The fact that it is Matt Nagy and feels like kind of a consolation

after the original plan that they had, it has dampened my enthusiasm about what this is going to look like overall. When you combine that with the neighbor's health concerns and just some of the other personnel questions they justifiably have, they were pretty easy for me to put down here. Like these two teams, there's a firm tier break after them before everybody else. And so this was the easy. The top two and the bottom two,

were the easiest parts for me to fill out on this entire list. That's what I would say. Yes. I also actually, that's a really good point about the staff because what I was like, sometimes you get staffs where because they are actually pulling from so many different trees and kinds of ways to play football that you can end up at something cool. But this feels this is going to be harsh,

but this feels a little bit closer to like the Frank Reich Panthers where there was just like this crazy amalgamation of like different staffs and ideas. And like I'm not really sure what it's supposed to look like in the end. Yeah. I am open to being proven wrong, but as of right now, I have my doubts about how that's going to work out. Let's get to 14.

Here's what I'd say. This next group of like five teams is probably the stretch that I had the most trouble with because it felt right to put a lot of these teams back down here, but there are teams that, especially with certain position groups and certain elements of the offense,

that I am genuinely excited about. We have seen play very well. So let's start with you. Who did you have? have at 14 on your list with the NFC. This was also a very troubling group for me that I actually didn't know what to do if I'm being perfectly honest. And this is a team that I actually think I can see the upside case for a little bit.

I put the Carolina Panthers here. That's why I have 14. Really? Oh, my God. Because like I, listen, everyone who's listened to the show knows that I love Tederoa McMillan. And I think that there's like a nice upside case for Jalen Coker, but I think a lot of the other past catcher core, you're kind of having to sell yourself that some of those

younger guys are just going to take a step in all of that. The running back room is fine, but not like super exciting. And then the offensive line, this is another one where, like, you can see the upside case, right? Like Damien Lewis was incredible last year. Robert Hunt is hopefully going to be healthy next year. You have a decent right tackle. Maybe Monroe Freeling has to play this year and he looks good.

You can see the upside. But also, it was a very up and down unit last year. And part of that was health concerns and they're changing out center again. And so you don't know how that's going to go. and then I think when we get to the play caller, like Canales is good, but I, you know, not quite up to that,

the superstar level play caller that is elevating people like Kyle Shanahan and all that stuff. Not that I think it's going to be a huge difference because the same group is in charge of game planning, figuring out what the plan is going to look like all of that, but Idzig is calling plays this year. So that's even one more kind of new piece of this. I landed on the Panthers at 14,

and I was surprised about it because I do have like a general level of optimism and just satisfaction, I guess, is maybe the right word, about how the Panthers have approached the last couple off seasons. Like, I look at what they've done and I'm like, this is fine. Like, I genuinely approve of the arc of what the Carolina Panthers have tried to be over the last couple years. But if you look at every aspect of the offense individually, none of them really stand out.

At the offensive line, you hope, is a decent group, but that's still, even at their best, it's more of a we can assert ourselves on the ground group than it is a, we're very good in past protection group. So it's a flawed unit that kind of falls probably middle of the pack somewhere. Even if you're really excited about Tetero McMillan, and I do think that there's another level to him that can get unlocked this year by having brazzle there, having more guys that can play outside,

can you move him around a little bit? It's still overall, even if you like Koker as like a borderline two, three guy. It's like, it's fine. Like it's a solid group. It's not overly exciting. The same goes for the running back room, like you said. Even if Jonathan Brooks is back, maybe that gives them another gear, but that's still a huge question.

And then I feel the same way about the overall structure and the play calling. Like, it's not offensive to me. It's fine. It's pretty solid. But that's kind of where I land on every individual element of this. And all the teams that I had kind of in the same tier, there was at least one aspect of those four categories where I was like, well, I like that more than what the Panthers have. So I was surprised for them to be here. But when I actually worked through it, I couldn't really put them any higher.

The other three teams above them just feel like they have, at least for me, because this tier for me is also about four teams. Like they have something that gives them a little bit more oomph, whereas even if they have like some sort of fatal flaw that I could see, the Panthers are just like, yeah, they're kind of fine everywhere. There's not like a fatal flaw here. But again, it's hard to see like what would even in the best case scenario punch them into being like a potentially top 12 offense. All right. So we both had Carolina at 14. Who did you have at 13? So it's another tough one for me

Because I'm actually kind of excited about them But I ended up with the New York The New Orleans Saints here I thought I was going to have them way higher And then I actually did the exercise And I was like I kind of just like a lot of these other teams A little bit better than I do them

And I still think that they could be nice But I just I thought I would have them top 10 for sure And I just didn't I have them at 10 And I admit In the first line in my nose about them Probably a little projection here I fully admit that I think it's a couple different things coming into view.

One, after having just watched Shuck and you try to remove yourself from the quarterback quality compared to everything that's happening around him. But I did really like elements of the offense and who they were trying to be, especially late in the year. And I think we talked about this on the second year quarterback show. I can so easily picture how their additions this offseason are supposed to cover up for some of those flaws that I do think you combine. that with better into your offensive line, health and play.

You know, just so many different little things here, I push them up just a little bit higher than a couple of the teams just behind them. And I think it's for, so just, I had them at 10. So that leaves three teams in between 14, the Carolina 14 and the Saints at 10. All three of the teams I had between them are changing out their play callers this year. So I think that's partially why I was willing to give the Saints just a little bit of an edge over that collection of teams. because you have continuity with the play caller.

I think Kellyn Moore did a very good job last year. And so that would save them a tiny bit of an edge over some of the other teams that I have. So what weighed them down for you? Like if you wanted to maybe have them in the top 10th, thought you would coming into this, what were the elements that maybe push them a little bit further down than you might have expected?

So I'll start with the offensive line. I think the offensive line can be very good. Like I obviously love Kelvin Banks, David Edwards. I thought was a really good signing. I just think one, and this was partly health related, they were injured last year, that offensive line was not good last year. There is a lot of hope here. And again, I've bought into that a little bit, but it is a lot of hoping that a lot of things

can come together. And I think Tilees Fuaga on the right side really needs to show me that he's going to take more of a step. I think that there's still a lot of talent there and he got a little bit better last year. But I want to see a little bit more from there before I feel really good about that room. And then I would say as far as the past catchers, I was probably, probably just slightly lower on some of the skill player acquisitions that they made. Like obviously I think Tyson like the ceiling is cool and I see the vision for it.

But I think as a prospect, I just had a couple more questions than a player that went as high as he did. And then Travis Achan, I think is very explosive if you can get him to the second level. And this is an offensive line that if things come together, they could be able to do that in stretches. But I just think he's a very inconsistent player. And I'm not sure how much of their run game issues he actually solves. the run game is the spot that probably gave me the most pause and made me feel the most uneasy about putting them in the top 10 and putting them as high as I did.

There were 29th in rushing success rate last year and you'd hope that with an upgrade at running back specifically, that gets better. But just the run game infrastructure overall, I think, left something to be desired last year. And also, we talked about this on the second year quarterback show. the overall lack of run game structure holding up the passing game in this offense is very clear when you watched them last year like they were 30th in the NFL and like run action overall it's a lot of gun it's a lot of putting a ton on the quarterback and that allowed them to get the ball quickly like that was the structure of the offense but overall I think there isn't that much buttressing the quarterback here compared to some of the other like really put together overall offensive. systems that are going to be near the top of this list. So I think even if I like what Kellyn Moore did for what it was, I still think overall, the structure of the offense doesn't do as much to lift the quarterback as some of the other play callers that I'm more excited about, if that makes sense.

It does. And like we've seen Kellyn Moore be able to do that at previous stops, right? It's just that with this Saints team, they were more of like a high tempo West Coast passing offense style of team. They weren't really like a cohesive tie everything together the way that you would ideally want to help a young quarterback and really help the offense. And so again, there's, for all these reasons, right, like you can see the upside for the past catchers. You can see the upside for the offensive line. You can see the vision for all of it. I just think that they're

further away than it felt like last year because we're hopeful on some of the young players. That's totally fair. And I think part of why I'm willing to, and this, this is a good example, right? So with Arizona, I have Arizona lower than the Saints. And I think part of that is I'm giving the saint i'm projecting the saints to like a higher percentile outcome than some of the teams i'm leaving behind them and i understand that's probably unfair but i think it's just because of how clearly i can see that step happening and why i can see it happening the tyson point is a really good one and but i think part of the reason that i'm really excited and optimistic about what he can be in this situation is that even if i had questions about his ultimate ceiling as a prospect i think in

this specific offense in an offense with Olava where you don't have to do some of the vertical stuff that Olava is going to be asked to do, it's a perfect use of him. And so like the vision for him, Edwards, and A. Chan combined with what they had last year, I just see it fitting like so seamlessly that it's easy for me to just convince myself that it's all going to work out in a way I might not be able to with some of these other teams. I know that's unfair. but I just, I'm trying to figure out why I feel this way, and I think that's what I would drill down to.

I mean, with the Cardinals specifically, it's not that unfair. They're the Cardinals, you know, they're prone to hitting their lowest outcomes pretty regularly. Which, funny, out, speaking of them, they would be my next team is actually the Arizona. You had them at 13? What number is that for me?

It would be 12 for me. Oh, you had, okay, you had the Saints at, you had the Saints at 13. We both of the Panthers at 14. I had Arizona at 13. So we are in the same general. vicinity here. Yeah, why? So what was it?

Were you just less sure that they could get to like a medium outcome for this unit? Or why did you have them a little bit lower? I think the offensive line, especially the interior, has a chance to be much improved, right? With Salamalo and Brousson is there. I still think overall, right tackle is still a big question. How it all comes together is worthwhile. Like second round guards are not necessarily a quick and easy path to improvement. we've seen that could be volatile in terms of the overall impact there.

So how much better is the offensive line really than it was over the last couple years? I think that's one of my questions. And then I think it's just uncertainty. And we haven't seen Michael Fleur do this again in this sort of situation. The note that I have about the Cardinals, this is the one that I think could change the most depending on what happens this season. Like if we woke up in the middle of the year and it seems silly that the Cardinals were at 13 and we're like actually they belong at like eights. because Marvin Harrison, Jr. really put it together. They used him in a slightly different way in a different system.

The offensive line did come together in the way that they're envisioning. Jeremiah Love is an absolute monster, a multifaceted monster within the offense. I could absolutely see me being the most wrong about them, but I think that there were enough questions still to be answered that I pushed them a little bit further down. I get that, and I think I just had them slightly higher, and we're quibbling over one spot with this particular team. but I think for me it was like this I'm so sure the skill talent is good like even if Marvin Harrison doesn't really take a step or or whatever it's going to be like Tray McBride is the

probably the best or at least like top three tied in the NFL he's obviously incredible Jeremiah Love I think can be really really good out of the gate as a run piece and as a past catcher like he's he's really really good at that and so I think you can be dynamic for you and the receiving duo of Marvin Harrison Jr. and Michael Wilson isn't the sexiest thing in the world but when those are your other two skill players with the tight end and running back, that's pretty damn good to me. And so for me, it's just like the offensive line definitely needs to get better, but I don't think it needs to get that much better for this to look like a pretty

sexy offensive environment, even if Michael Fleur is kind of just average as a play caller out of the gate. Obviously, a lot of our, this is another one too where it's kind of hard to like take the quarterback out of it of how you think about the unit overall because we know that we're not going to get interesting quarterback play, I would say. why are they that low to you if you're like this excited about them? You just are more excited about the teams ahead of them? So I think in terms of sealing, if I was just rating sealing,

I probably would have put the Cardinals like eight, something like that. Because again, I think the skill talent is phenomenal. And like I do think the offensive line can get better. I think the reason I just had them a little bit lower is definitely the two teams that I have above them, they have one thing about them that I am very confident. it gives you an extremely high floor in a way that I'm not sure the Cardinals have,

even if I really, really like their skill talent. Again, I said, I think this one could change the most depending on what happens this season. So if they do feel like a top eight team, if we were to do this again in the middle of the year, that would not surprise me. I just, for some reason, I think it's just a question about how much the offensive line is going to come together. And I think the past kitchen group is good. I think, like, phenomenal is I would hold back on that. I think if this is an offense that can get the most out of those receivers

combined with what Trey McBride is going to give you, then I feel like we, this could look very different. I still just like, what is Marvin Harrison Jr. in this situation? What is Michael Wilson in this situation? I think that combined with McBride and Jeremiah Love, there is a chance that if we're doing just offensive weaponry by the end of the year, are they in the top five in this conference? Are they higher than that?

I do believe that can be the case. I think I'm just in wait and see mode with an entirely new staff and entirely new offense and we just haven't seen any of those guys in this situation. And again, I think that's partially why I'm willing to put the Saints

a little bit higher, even if I think the stealing case for them is maybe similar to where the Cardinals are because at least we saw Kellynmore do it last year, right? At least we saw that happen. The fact that it's an entirely new staff with the Cardinals and a lot of new roles, I think that's what holds me back

just a little bit. All right, so you had Arizona at 12. I had Arizona at 13. So I have the Falcons at 12. Where did you have the Falcons? Wow, I had the Falcons at 7. I had them pretty high. But I'm the Jake London guy, so let's get into that.

I can understand that. I think here's where I started with this. I think the offensive line has eroded a little bit over the last couple years compared to what they were at their best. And I think that to me is, again, why I maybe was a little bit surprised how low I had them compared to some other teams. Like, for example, I have the Bucks one spot ahead of them.

That is solely because I think the Bucks' offensive line at its best can be a really, really good unit. And I think that Atlanta's offensive line is just no longer there. They had a sub-40% rushing success rate last year with B. John. Like, that's, that element of the offense just isn't quite what it has been over the last couple years. When you had Dolman and McGarry, at least you had like an ass kicking,

run blocking offensive line. Right now, it's really just Lidsdram is really your only high-end player there. And then you have acceptable answers at a lot of those other spots, but it's not like a high-level group, especially when it comes to like the run game

the way that it was a couple years ago. And as much as I love Drake London and I love Bejohn Robinson, it's Kyle Pitts and then what else? Like the tertiary receipts, receiving options within this offense when it comes to like the receivers and the tight ends, I think that there's a lot to be desired there. So even if the strengths are very strong, I think the quality of the offensive line overall

and the options behind the star level pass catchers, that was the reason I had them a little bit lower. The floor case for this team is a little scary. I don't even necessarily like disagree with that because, yeah, the tertiary past catchers once you get past Drake London and Kyle Pitts is a little bit scary. It's a lot of guys who have been fours for other teams over the last hand. of years. And the offensive line has eroded, but I think my contention there and why I'm at least willing to believe it, part of why I think they were struggled last year to find consistency

is that it was the same play over and over again. Like they were the most like wide zone team in the NFL. Like it's kind of all that they ran. And so obviously Stefansky does some of that. But I think he's more varied and is going to do a better job of being able to piece together the offense as a whole. And even if the offensive line talent isn't necessarily better, I at least trust the structure of the offense to help those guys out and give Bejohn Robinson some better chances to continue to make plays the way that he has. I think a lot of this came down to me is that I just think I'm probably just higher on those particular three skill players than a lot of other people. Not Bejohn, I think everybody obviously knows how good he is. But like I think Drake London is

as close to you can get to being in that like elite receiver group without actually being there. Like to me he is knocking on the door. Kyle Pitts, I think is a very good player that we just all hate for fantasy football reasons from sins of previous seasons. But I think he is still a pretty good, damn good tight end. And then Bejohn Robinson, I just like, he is a special player. He had like the quietest leading the league in scrimmage yards the year that I've ever seen last year because that Falcon scene was just disinteresting. But he's a phenomenal pass blocker.

He's as good as anybody as a pass catcher. He, I think my favorite trade about him is he just fixes runs that have been nuked in the backfield. You can hit him in the backfield, but he will find a way to get back to zero, which is a pretty impressive trait. Like, I just, the floor case for this team, I get it. I get why it's scary. The offensive line's not great, some of the second and third pass catchers. But I think that trio of skill players with this coach and offensive infrastructure, I think it could be pretty damn good.

I guess that's part of why I have them a little bit lower, is that I guess I just have some questions about what that, how good that offensive infrastructure is going to. be. Like the Browns looking what they have, looking with the way they have on offense over the last couple years. Is that solely a product of offensive line injuries and quarterback play? Like, is that what that, is that the reason that the Browns have looked so haphazard over the last couple years? Or are we overstating how much of a fix this is going to be? I think maybe it's wrong, but I kind of mostly do believe that a lot of what weren't wrong with Cleveland was just a lot of injuries. and the quarterback play being like being handcuffed to what they were at quarterback, I think was tough because we had seen obviously this was four years ago, whatever it was, those offenses with like

Jacoby Brissette or early on with Baker Mayfield, like that to me is more the real version of what you get with Stefanski and what happened over the last two or three years was more a product of circumstance than anything. To hear why they should be ahead of teams like the Bucks and the Saints. Like again, it's all in the same tier. like if you wanted to put the Falcons at 10, I would be okay with that. It's harder for me to put them over the teams I have in like the next couple tiers. That's harder for me.

There are a couple teams I have them over that is pretty aggressive, but I'm okay with it. I probably am understating like the superstar level impacts that Bejohn and Drake London are both giving you when those guys. I mean, obviously Drake London was a little bit banged up last year. I'm probably underrating that a little bit, especially when you compare it to like a team like the Bucks one spot ahead of them. But again, I think when it comes down to it, I just think that the Bucks offensive line at its best gives you a chance for such a floor as an offense. And I think we're just forgetting how banged up the Bucks offensive line was last year

in talking and thinking about what they're going to feel like this year. Even if you have questions about everything else, I still feel like the best case scenario for that offensive line is what gives them a slight edge. But I could still see the Falcons like at the top of this tier being in the top 10. But any higher than that, and again, some of the teams you're going to have to put them over to put them at seven.

I'm just not sure I can get there. And they're going to feel aggressive once we get there, but I get it. All right. Let's take a quick break. Come back and reset for a second and then get through the rest of this list. All right. So I had Washington at 16, Giants at 15, Panthers at 14, Arizona at 13, Falcons at 12. Who did you have at 12?

I had at 12. That was where I put the Arizona Cardinals. Arizona. Okay. So who did you have at 11? Speaking of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, this to me was kind of a tier like 11 to 14. and I put the bucks at the top of it because of what you just said, like the offensive line, the best case for the offensive line is still like a top, probably six offensive line.

Like center is obviously squared away. Tristan Wurst is as good as anybody at his position in the league. Luke Goddeky is a really good right tackle when he's healthy. Like mock is really good. Like the offensive line, if it comes together and if it's healthy and if the offensive, you know, play calling looks decent for them, I think it can be a really special unit. I just think, one, the new play caller, you know, for the third year in a row or fourth year in a row, is that is a big question mark to me, I think, in this particular case. And then the skill group is not bad. Like, there are definitely some talent here, but I found myself less excited about them than I thought I was going to be when we started the exercise.

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel too. And I think that Zach Robinson was, he was fine in Atlanta, right? It wasn't a disaster, but I still have my concerns there about how this is going to look. And I think the skill position talent just isn't what it was a couple years ago when Godwin was healthy and Mike Evans was Mike Evans. Right. Like, Egbuka was had, he really struggled in the back half of last year. And so now you're, even if Mike Evans was banged up last year, you're removing him from the equation. It's really Godwin and Egbuka are the guys you're really leaning on this year.

Bucking Irving took a huge step back last year. I obviously know the offensive line was part of that. And so I think that there are enough other big picture questions about some of the personnel, the play calling, everything else, that even if I'm excited about the offensive line being back healthy and what that can mean, I have enough reservations that I have them in this tier compared to where we would have them a year ago or two years ago. And here's by minor reservation with the offensive line, talent-wise, they're obviously incredible.

But I think when they were at their best, like two years ago and stuff like, like, especially with Liam Cohen, so much of what they were good at was a lot of like gap scheme runs, like moving guys, pulling guys, down blocks, all that stuff. Zach Robinson didn't really do any of that in Atlanta. And so obviously, I think he could change. And I think this offensive line is so good that it kind of doesn't matter what you run with them. But I do think that there is like a little bit of like, I wonder if they're going to end up

leaving meat on the bone with the way that the offense is going to be constructed. Wouldn't be worried about that. I think the offense, I think the run game looking the way it didn't Atlanta is purely an expression of Dwayne Leverd and his background. In Tampa, Kevin Carberry is still the offensive line coach and still the run game coordinator for the bucks the same way he was when Liam Cohen was there because Carberry was in Atlanta when Zach Robinson was in LA

when Zach Robinson was in LA and so they just carried him over. So I assume that I mean I'm pretty sure that the run game looked the way that it did in Atlanta last year because that's the way that Leibford wants to do things. I think the run game will look much more varied and diversified in this Zach Robinson offense than it did

in the last Zach Robinson offense. And if that's the case then my my concerns are at ease there because that was my only again if they were a purely or like more of a wide zone offense. I'm sure they'd kick ass anyway. But it does feel like the way that you want to run things with this team when you have Tristan Wurst, Graham Barton, Cody Mock,

like you want to move people and try to kick some asses. All right. So I had Panthers, Cardinals, Falcons. I'm feeling worse about the Falcons one, but I still just like, I think, you know what part of this is? I think part of it is just an inability to picture what it's going to look like. I'm like fully willing to admit that. Like Drake London and Bijon Robinson in this sort of offense with this version of the offensive line.

Like I just, I can see the case for like how those guys are completely unlocked and it feels silly to have a team with that like those two guys as two of your skill players this low on a list like this. But I think I'm just having trouble imagining what it's going to look like and what the best version of it actually, like how the best version of it actually manifests. I'm trying to think through why I'm so low on it compared to where you are. And I think that's part of the reason. And I kind of get that. I do feel like part of that too is just it's a little bit of the quarterback thing. Like it's hard to see what it looks like when those quarterbacks are trying to operate it. I think what I've learned with some of these lists too, I am very willing to look at the guys who are like all pro potential at their skill positions and just being like, I'll bet on it.

We can figure some other things out. But if they are that good, I can figure it out. And I think I tend to weigh, all right, I've seen the overall plan for the offense lift the players in the offense. And I weigh that pretty heavily. And I think that because it's an entirely new staff and I just don't know what it's supposed to look like at its best, I think that's probably why I have Atlanta a little bit lower.

And I think I was spoiled and saw where you had one of these other teams. The team you had at 10, I think, is very much an expression of this. So who did you have a 10 on your list after the bucks? I was shocked to have them this low, but I had the Green Bay Packers at 10. This is where you and I just differ in an exercise like this. I have them higher than that. Matt Lafleur is awesome. I think he is so, so good at the job.

He is constantly solving problems. I think he has some of the best one-off game plans in the league. Like even some of what he did last year, like in some of those Bears games, even I thought was just incredible. I mean, granted, not the best defense. But he carved them up in the way that you were supposed to. And like, there's still skill talent here. Like obviously Tucker Kraft is incredible.

Watson played well at the end of last year. But I think you're having to make a leap of faith that Matthew Golden can be really good. And maybe he can be to make up for the fact of like losing some of the depth that they have there. Like the, the reason I really have them as low is the offensive line. Going into this exercise last year, there were questions about the offensive line. But they were coming off of a really good year. and it was like, okay, I have so much faith in this organization and this staff to get the most out of it, that whatever they do to shuffle around this best five, they'll find a best five and it'll be good.

Well, now they have fewer of those pieces to work with, and the offensive line was not good last year. So I just, it's hard for me to see what the upside case is with the offensive line. I think that's ultimately where I landed. I'm not sure with the upside cases. I think I have them much higher than this, okay? I have them at five. and I get that like I put they scare me then I had a I had a tier from six to three which was four different teams and I had the Packers essentially at five six with one other team that we can talk about and I think part of this is just inherent faith in the overall environment they they consistently create in that building and have for many many years like you go back through it I can't I wonder like how far you have to go to get to a place where they were not a top 10 offense when the

Fleur was the play caller. I think you'd have to go all the way back to like 2019. His first year there is when they were not a top 10 offense by DVO. Excuse me, they were. So every single year they have finished in the top 10 since he has been there. And I think some of that is the level of quarterback play. And that was the only part that I was like, am I over, am I underrating how much of a Hand Jordan Love, like has in this.

And maybe I'm overrating it because I think he's incredible. But you might not be because I went back through and I watched a couple games as part of this. And I couldn't do that for every single one of these teams. But for the Packers specifically, I was like, okay, I want to know like how much just inherent faith should I have in the structure of the offense compared to some of the concerns you might have about the personnel. And I went back and I watched a couple of those games late in the season. I watched one of the Vikings games back, the Broncos game back. And a lot and the Thanksgiving game that they played against the Lions, a lot of it is like shot making from Jordan Love.

Like that is like a good chunk of like what makes the offense special. I think he's a really, really good quarterback. But at the same time, I still feel like you watch the Malik Willis games and just how well orchestrated those games have been over the last couple years. And even if I think that the back half of last year in 2025 overall, probably wasn't the best year for Matt LaFlor, even as a play caller. I just think that he's deserved the benefit of the doubt

to such an extent that even with an offensive line that might not be quite as good as it's been in years past, even with a past catching group where you do have to project that step forward for Matthew Golden to imagine the best version of this thing. Even with the running game that was middle of the pack last year compared to other previous seasons where they have been closer to the top five, I still just have so much faith in him and that stack. ability to work through that and come out on the other side.

And once again, just be one of those groups that we watch and like, yeah, this is one of the best offensive coaching staffs, offensive play calling units in the entire league. Like, they've just been that for so long that even if last year was like a slightly off version of this team, I still feel like they can get back to that level. I think they can in the idealized world, but like they've only lost talent this offseason is kind of my issue. And the offensive line, it's hard for me to see why they're going to be better. Like, they're shuffling some pieces around, but it's a lot of the same pieces. That's where it's hard for me to get there. What pieces did they lose that you're, like, really worried about? Like, is the downgrade from Rashid Walker to Jordan Morgan, you're concerned?

Like, Elton Jenkins didn't play in the back half of last year. And they lost Romeo Dobbs. Like, that's- The losses are skill players, yes. Yeah, and I do think, I do think Dobbs specifically, you go back and you watch what he was for that offense last year. And the idea that Matthew Golden can be some approximation of what Romeo Dobbs was last year, I think understates how good Dobbs was. But I think overall the combination of Watson, Reed, Golden, and Tucker Kraft,

and just how complementary those skill sets feel combined with an offensive line that I do think is going to give you a certain floor and LaFleur and just the complete backlog we have of him constructing offenses that just make things easier for everybody. I still just feel like we're going to wake up in the middle of the season and you having them a 10 is going to feel, you're going to have regrets about that. I just don't think the offensive line gives them a floor. It is not a talented unit, like at all really.

Zach Tom is really good. But other than that, you have a ton of question marks if any of these guys can even be average NFL starters. When I say gives them a floor, I think the reason I land there is, it's good enough. I think with the offensive line, my thought is, the same way it has in plenty of years past, where even if the talent didn't seem that great,

we get to a place where like, it's good enough, it's good enough. And I do think that we have a chance for that to happen again, even if there are more concerns about the individual talent, like for the starting five and the depth that we have behind them. The depth is a very good thing to bring up. But I still feel like overall, it's a group that is probably going to clear the bar. and when you combine that with everything else, that's why I have them a couple notches higher.

I think for me, and I actually think that that's like I get that argument of them just being good enough. I think for me, it's just they were barely there last year. And it's a lot, it's easy for me to see how they would fall under that line this year. I think that's where this, they get drawn down for me. The skill talent is good and I do love Matt Lafleur, but I, that offensive line more than other places scares me, which like, we'll talk about San Francisco later. their offensive line isn't good either, but I think there's, again, Shanahan and some of those

skill players, I think, are just like a different tier to me that it allows me to get over it. I will fully admit that there's a chance. This is kind of just like a lifetime achievement award for everything that Matt LaFlor and that group has been over the last five or six years. I'm willing to be okay with that. And I get that. I'm willing to live with that. Even if that's the case, I'm willing to live with it.

The thing I want to say with this team, too, this is where the tier starts to get where, like, I have them 10 here, but if we did the entire league, they would be a like 16th. Like I don't think it's a bad offense by any stretch. The NFC is just loaded and I had to put somebody here. It was funny. I had them at six in my original rankings and I flipped them with another team and the reason that I flip them is like I just think Matt LaFleur is better than that guy. And that's why I ultimately flipped them. And I think that just happened often enough where I just kept pushing them a little bit higher. And I can understand landing where you did for the reasons that you did. But I just think that we have way too much history of them being really good at this for me to put them any

lower than the tier that I put them in. All right. So I, that's, you had them at 10. Let's get to 9. This is, for me, it was after the Saints before this team. I have a tier of three teams from 9 to 7 that all have like one similarity between them. So who did you have at 9? I think actually for everything we just said about Matt Lafleur, I'm going to switch my 9 to my 10.

Because I do think, because I have actually a lot of similar concerns about this team, but I know that the Packers Playcaller is good and I don't know about this teams. I had originally the Seattle Seahawks at 9 and I'm going to move them to 10. Obviously, JSN is incredible, but this is another team that really only lost talent and they also lost their play caller.

And so this was the reason I am putting them there. You, I, okay. So, okay, so you put the Packers ahead of the Seahawks now. I am now doing this, yes. Okay, that feels okay. Because if my whole thing with the Packers is going to be the offensive line, I then saw this and I was like, well, the Seahawks offensive line is not that good.

I don't really need to be doing that. I had the Seahawks at eight. So very firmly in this tier, but I had them at eight instead of nine. I think it's a few different things. I mean, obviously last year, the offense and the structure of the offense was so good. And it was just such a departure from what they had been previously. And I think that was a big reason for their success. Like, everything was tied together so well.

We talked about Seattle a lot in that tight end show we did. Like the Seahawks, even if we think of them as kind of a defense first team justifiably, they fell in line the structure of the offense and what they were trying to be and fell completely in line with like what really good offenses in the NFL were doing in order to dictate how the game is being played. Even with a new play caller, and I think that's part of why they're a little bit further down this list for me is because they do have a new play caller this year.

I think the structure of things and the benefits that structure gives them will be the same. like who they're trying to be on offense, I think will be very similar. The question for me and why they fall into this group of three that all of them have new playcaller, I think there's lingering questions about that. I think that beyond the structural things that Kubiak brought to the table,

he was an excellent situational play caller last year. So even if the plan is going to be the same and you have faith in Brian Fleury in the fact that he was the choice Mike McDonald made, which that matters to me too, like Mike McDonald would be like, this is the next guy I think should call plays for us after handpicking Kubiak.

I do think it can work out. But I think the situational stuff, you just never know. And I think Kubiak did such a good job with that last year. I think that's relatively what pushes Seattle a little bit further down for me. That was a big question of mine too. But honestly, for as much as I think that's true, like obviously losing an offensive coordinator who is now a head coach who did a really good job and certainly made that unit a lot better than we thought it was going to be.

I think even if Kubiak was still the play caller, I would only probably, probably have moved them up a couple of spots. Because the offense does have some holes. And it's an imperfect unit as it is. And it wasn't like it was an elite offense last year. See, here's what I would say. So I have a group of teams from six to three. I would have them in that tier, not this one.

Even if the overall ranking, probably like the bottom of that tier. Probably the bottom of that tier. They would be like maybe, they would still might be seventh. But I think they'd be closer to like the teams I have at four and five. then the teams I have at 8 and 9 here because they would have carryover with the play calling. That's the reason. The two things that do a lot of, that would do a lot of lifting in that scenario are everything

that Kubiak did last year and JSN. Like, JASN goes a very long way here. But then you combine that with the fact that you now get Shaheed for the whole season. You get Tori Horton back. Like I do think that they would firmly be in the next tier of Kubiak was still here. I think they fall back one, like one step because of that. and again, into this group of three teams that all have a new play call that I have from 9 to 7. That's probably fair because I think if I'm looking at my list now, I have a group around like 5 and 6 that I don't think they would crack for me even if Kubiak was there.

But you can get them. I had the Falcons at 7. You could probably convince me to put them above the Falcons if Kubiak was still there. This team finished fourth in passing success rate last year. The Niners, Rams, and Patriots were the only team ahead of them. They're fourth and explosive pass rate. I think the, again, the structure of the offense and I think the Darnold played well last year, but I still feel like elements of the offense certainly lifted the level of quarterback play that they were getting to an extent.

That's okay. That doesn't mean to diminish what Sam Darnal did. I think we're just underrating a little bit the work that Kubiak did last year and how much certain elements of the offense have helped butchers everything. But and I think that's also why I think some of what Kubiak did is like why I can't see the ceiling as high this time around because the floor to me I like even if it's all the same structure I do think because Kubiak was calling plays so well he elevated the offensive line even like a tier above just whatever the structure is going to give you and I wonder how the new play caller is going to be able to to really piece all of that together and then with the skill group like you're just betting on a lot of young players taking steps obviously a royo at tight end Tori Horton at wider. receiver. You just drafted a running back in the first round who has never really been a lead back. And obviously, you know, when you're playing next to Jeremiah 11 college, it's hard to do, but he has never really done it. And so I think you're just asking a lot of really young players to get there. I think you're underrating JSN in this too. But yeah, and I might be. I think you're

underrating JSN in this too. If you, if I, and I'm not saying he's as good as this person. But I think it's worth just doing this for a theoretical thing. Let's just say Jamar Chase replaced JSN here. And Clint Kubiak was coming back. You wouldn't have them like in the top five? If they had Jamar Chase instead of JSN and Kubiak was still there, I would probably put them like fourth or fifth, yeah. But I think like, listen, Seahawks fans are going to hate me.

They're going to be really mad. JSN is obviously an incredible receiver. I really think Jamar Chase. Jamar Chase to me is like him and Justin Jefferson are, and Pooka andukuoka, I think it is best. Like, JASN is great, but there's something about the physical presence of a player like Jemar Chase that is just a little bit different to me. I think maybe this is a stylistic thing because I know that some of it is a stylistic thing. I think that we the offensive player of the year and a guy that you, again, they built a top five passing offense when you look at the efficiency through this player in a way that you very rarely see in the NFL.

Like the ability to do that, there just aren't that. many guys that you could do that with. He is one of those guys. And so again, I want to just be very clear. The only thing pushing them back into this tier for me is the fact that they are swapping out the play caller. A lot of the other elements of this are in line with some of the teams that are a tier above them on my list.

And I also want to again, want to be clear. This is to me is the difference is arguing between like the difference between a 98 overall player and a 99. Like to me, Chase is just a 99. I would like, I don't know. That's kind of all it is for me. I think it's a stylistic thing on top of like, I do think he's just like a hair better.

I think for me, a lot of it comes down to. Obviously, JSN, what he gives you down the field and ability to get open is his ability to get open is probably slightly better than Chase. But there is something about the guys who, when they have the ball in their hand, they are the scariest person on the field. JASN is good with the ball in his hands. He is not in the stratosphere of Jammar Chase, I don't think. Very few people are.

I'm thinking more about it. I honestly think, you, You got one switch, right? You've flipped. I moved the pack. Yes, I flipped the Packers and the Seahawks. That will, I think, I think I feel good about the rest of my list, yes. My one change I'm going to make is I think you've swayed me enough.

I think the Falcons belong in this tier. And part of the reason I'm willing to do that is because they fit the first year play caller thing. Like that is, if the structural concern is what are pushing some of the teams in this tier down from like the top, top teams in the league, I think the Falcons probably. belong at the back end of that tier rather than where I had them at 12. So I have the Falcons now at 10 and firmly in this tier. That's the only change I'm going to make.

I'll take that. That's the win. It feels more right. Because I think you're right. I think like the Bejon, like what is that different about the star level talent the Falcons have with kind of an imperfect offensive line and a new play caller? Like that actually kind of falls more in line with the teams that I have here. Okay.

So I have the Falcons that of 10. I have the Seahawks at 8. you had the Seahawks at 9, correct? Well, I switched them in the Packers, so I now have the Packers at 9, but yes. And then the Seahawks at 10. Seahawks at 10. The Packers at 9. I had the Lions at 9.

Whoa, I had the Lions considerably higher than this. I had them in this tier of teams. I had the Lions top three. Three? Yes. I think we are significant. over-correcting on how, like, bad last year was. Think about all of the negative air we spent talking about the Lions.

They were still a top-10 offense by any metric. I think this team is still really good, and we're just like... The Lions at three. Yes. I think they are a really good team. They are still a really good team. I can't get on board with that. And again, I think part of this, part of this is the fact that I have them clumped in this group of

teams where you're swapping out the play caller. I think that that is a part of it to me. But the play calling wasn't good last year. But I don't, how good is it going to be this year? Like, okay, I think that. That's fair, but that, that to me is, that's my concern here is that like, I just can't put them. You think the, you think the lions should be over like the Vikings. Yes.

Like, I think the skill talent is pretty comparable. And I think the, I can see a higher upside case. think a little bit with the offensive line in Detroit. And I think that the play calling, I don't know if petzing is great. I don't know if he's as good as we wanted him to be after what we saw with the Cardinals in 2024. But I think the big thing with the Lions last year was they could still get explosives. They were as explosive as anybody as an offense. The problem was the down-to-down consistency. A lot of that to me was some of the new play calling. And we had questions about that coming into the season. And then also just health with the offensive line

and changing out new pieces. That's obviously going to be true as well this year, like changing some new pieces on the offensive line. It's obviously a young unit. But I do think that Petting can raise the floor of the offense and raise the play calling. And so if we take that and think about what we know with the ceiling of the offense with Jemir Gibbs being as explosive as anybody,

Amon-Ross St. Brown being a really good wide receiver, Sam LaPorteur being one of the most explosive tight ends in the league. Jameson Williams being about as good as an ancillary piece as you can get in terms of explosive plays. Like, to me, I think it's not that hard for me to envision the world where they're like the fifth best offense again. It's not that hard for me to envision that either. I just think that it's hard for me to put them above some of the teams that I have in the

top six because those teams, we've seen it. We have continuity with those teams. I think that's part of the problem. If you, I have the lions at seven here easily, right? Like, all the teams in this group to me are completely tied together. Like, if I have the Seahawks at eight, I have the Eagles at seven. If you wanted to put the Lions above any of those teams, totally fine. I would completely understand that.

But again, I just think that they belong in this tier compared to the teams ahead of them just because I just... Hold on, wait. Did you have the Seahawks above them? Is that what you said? I had the Seahawks one spot ahead of the Lions at eight. It's essentially in the same tier. Right, but to me, like they're both switching out their offensive play caller. I think the offensive line, there are questions about both.

Maybe I just prefer whatever the style that the lions are trying to build. But then I think with the overall breadth and depth of skill talent in Detroit is way sexier than what Seattle has. The best singular player there is JSN. But the depth in Detroit, I just think, is a lot better. I don't disagree with that. I would be fine putting the lions ahead of them. I think two things are coming into play with why I have Seattle a little bit higher in this tier than I might. I did originally, first of all.

I had, I originally had the Seahawks behind them. One, I'm trying to overcorrect a little bit for having the Seahawks 16th last year. I feel like guys really disrespected them. I will fully admit that's why I have them higher. Two, I do think that JSN to me is in a slightly different group than even Amon Ross St. Brown is with like your highest end play call, like your highest end pass catcher and what you can do with him as the centerpiece of your offense. Those are the two factors that are the reason that I've,

put Seattle at eight and the lions at nine. But I, and then, and then the other part of it is like, I couldn't put the Eagles behind the Seahawks because like the Eagles offensive line and that, the potential of that to me was still so good that that's why I gave Philly like a tiny bit of a bump over those other two teams. The lion specifically, the offensive line has a chance to be very good. You upgrade at center. You get a lot more bigger and physical at center.

You have a rookie right tackle now. The interior was a huge question last year. and then you combine that with a play caller that has been solid, but isn't, in my opinion, the sort of difference maker that some of the guys at the top of this list are. And I think that ultimately is what pushed it down. Again, some of the play calling stuff and the offensive line questions I buy, I think maybe I'm just more bought in on how many like pro bowl plus level skill talent players that they have.

Like, it's really easy for me to get there. Obviously, JSN purely as a pass catcher, I do agree what he allows you to do in terms of explosive passing offense is a little bit different than anybody in Detroit. I mean, Jameson Williams kind of does that, but he's too specific to really count. But I do think in terms of overall explosive offense, Jemir Gibbs is a similar caliber of weapon to me. Obviously, run game, past game is a little bit different, but he is like that caliber of player and explosive threat. I can see the argument for it. Again, I just think that if I'm going to keep them out of that of the tier that I have with the top six, it's all the

same. If you wanted to put them at seven, that's fine. But I do think that they belong in this tier solely because I have questions about how much the play calling and the infrastructure is going to lift things compared to the teams ahead of them. That's why I landed there. So I had the Lions at 9, I had Seattle at 8. Who did you have at 8? Eight is where I have the Philadelphia Eagles, which I have them at 7. So pretty much the same, exactly, the same group. Right. I think this came down a lot to like, it's just there another team where it just feels like a lot of stuff has gone out of the building. Obviously losing AJ Brown is massive. And then the offensive line is still pretty talented, but Dickerson's had some health issues. Like, Lane Johnson is great, but is getting

older. No Jeff Stoutland in the building now. Like, I think they're, while it's still a very good offensive line, I wonder if they can be the top five unit that we all just kind of like don't think about and just like ascribe them to that level. I do wonder a little bit if they can get there. And then the wider receiver group to me is fine with Devonto Smith. Like he's a really good player and McCoy Lemon will see. But Dallas Goddard has been a little bit on the downtrend outside of the done last year. So I just, it's a good offense, but not as sexy as I think I wanted it to be when I started. I think for me, if I'm trying to like, again, talk through why I had the Eagles and the lions, like, grouped in generally the same vicinity. I think that, I think I have more confidence

in the Eagles offensive line being like a real legitimate strength. And the past catchers just being a slight tick down from that where with the lions, it's flipped where the past catchers are obviously a legitimate strength. And I think that the, you know, the offense is just being a legitimate strength. And I think that the offensive line, highly drafted players, you could see it working out, but I think there's still more questions. To me, like, the way that both of those groups kind of even out isn't that much different for me. I think it kind of evens out in the same place. And again, we have new play callers in both of those spots. So I think that's why, again, if I'm trying to talk through why I had them grouped together, I do think that they feel kind of in the same group of teams.

Logically, that actually does make a lot of sense to me. Was the difference then for you that? even like we kind of know what petting is and it's fine, but the ceiling is maybe not that high, whereas at least with Manning, you can talk yourself into some sort of upside being there. Is that ultimately what it came down to? Yeah, maybe.

But again, like you could flip a coin and these teams could be in different spots. Yeah. Like this all to me is the exact same. This tier is as muddled as any of the other ones. Like I think that the lions, the Seahawks and the Eagles, you could flip the orders and I would feel completely fine.

But again, I think that there is a gap between that collection of teams and the one that I have, the ones I have ahead of them, in part because of the continuity with all the aspects of the offense, right? And so I had the Eagles at seven. Who did you have at seven? At seven is where I'd put the Falcons. That's where you had Atlanta. Okay.

Yes. So then we have very similar top six teams. The only team that you don't have in your top six that I did, that I had in my top six that you don't is the Packers. Right. Right. This is also, this I find is very funny because I think, you know, Dave has mentioned a number times this off season already, like picking who you want in the NFC North is going to be

really, really hard. And I just find it funny that the one teams for each of us that we like had a real disagreement on was an NFC North team. I just think that the other, so the teams in the top six. So you had, you had let's, we already talked about the Packers. I had them at five. So the teams that are your top five are in some order. The Vikings, right?

So the Vikings, the Cowboys, the Niners, the Bears, and the Rams. Those are the teams you had in your, and your top five. And the Lions in addition to that. And that's my one different one, yes. And again, part why to me the Lions are outside of that tier and the Packers are in that tier is that I think my overall faith in the environment with all six of these teams because we have seen these groups be successful. And with some of them, we've seen them be very successful over like a multi-year period.

That to me was a reason that I had these teams in this tier and the Lions just slightly one to your back. Same with the Eagles. That feels like just like slipping into a nice pair of slippers that you're familiar with. Like I know these play callers. I know some of these offensive lines where I think, I don't know, with the talent on the Lions, I just, I think I'm intoxicated by what the ceiling can be,

even if last year was not their best showing. If I had the Lions at 7 instead of 9, you'd feel much better about this. And so I just want to keep reiterating the fact that I could have just had them at 7. and there wouldn't be that much of a difference. All right, so I had the Vikings at six. That's exactly where I have the Vikings. Okay. It was at six at the bottom of this group for me.

And I like, we definitely had them higher last year. I think this year it's a little bit harder to make the case for the offensive line. One, because we've seen some of those knee pieces now, but also Ryan Kelly is now out of it. He's retired. And so I think that part of it kind of throws a little bit of a wrench in things. Obviously, the depth at wide receiver and even the ceiling is incredible there. I think where I'm at, though, with the overall ecosystem of the offense,

I think I'm okay saying that Kevin O'Connell is good and not great and that I still have a lot of concerns about the run game. Like, I think I'm at a point now that, like, we've done this for enough years that I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt that things can change. I kind of need to see it before we can bump up into the next year. That's exactly why I had them where I did. And that's ultimately why I flipped them into Packers.

Because when I first did this, I had the Vikings at five. and I was like, Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, your number two receiver, Hawkinson, you know, the offensive line should be much healthier this year, Kevin O'Connell. And then I was like, well, wait a second. Like, I have more faith in what Matt Welfour has been as a play caller consistently than anything that Kevin O'Connell has done.

Even in their best years, like those years where we were talking about how great the situation was around the quarterback, they were still like the 12th or 13th best offense in the league. As Matt Wafloor has been pumping out top five offenses consistently, every single season. So that's where I sit with it, is that I think last year we were thinking of the Kevin O'Connell and the staff as one of those like true difference making groups combined with Justin Jefferson and an offensive line that had a chance to be much, much better.

I think it's harder to talk yourself into the first part of that equation now. So even if the past catching talent is still very good, even if when healthier, the offensive line should still be a good group, I think there is enough of a. a gap between O'Connell and some of the guys higher on this list that ultimately landed the Vikings at six for me. That's what it is. Like, I think the offensive infrastructure there is like above board. I just, when I look at some of the other ones above this group, talked about them, the cowboys, the bears, the Niners, the Rams, the Lions for me. I either trust, there's something about them that I trust a little bit more than a lot of the other stuff. Like with, obviously with the Bears and

the Rams, it's the play calling. With the Lions, even though they have some other questions, it's the skill talent. Like they just have one thing where I was a little bit more willing to buy it. I think I'm with you on all of that. And again, that's why I had them at the bottom of this tier and not any higher. I think if you look at what happened last year, top five in your case or top six in my case might be surprising for people. But I think if you project this moving forward, the offensive line should be much better this year than it was last year. They played 17 offensive line combinations last year, which was the second most in the league after the Chargers. their most played combination,

which is both starting tackles with Derisaw and O'Neill in the game, played 25% of their snaps last year. That was it. The pressure rate with, if you look at all of the units with Derisaw was significantly lower than it was when Justin School was in there,

which shouldn't surprise anybody. The number that jumped out to me, the EPA per dropback last year with and without Christian Derrassau on the field. Without Christian Derisaw, negative. 0.35.

With Christian Derrassau, negative 0.08. So that's the difference between the Brown's offense and the Bengals offense from last season with and without Christian Daryasa. And on-off stats are, again, normal caveats about how complicated and complex they are. It's not causal, but just an indication

of how different this group felt, even with Daryasaw banged up last year. He was hampered last year and you still felt such a drastic difference when he was out there. He said this week he feels essentially 100% healthy, like as good as he is, has felt since the knee injury happened.

And I think that that combined with the rest of the offensive line still being an improved group from where it was a couple of years ago and the skill position talent, even if I do land where you do about O'Connell, I still think they deserve to be in this tier of teams. Again, and that's why I put them here. Like, to me, you know, I had the Falcons at seven and the Vikings at six. That's a split for me. Like, I do think that the Vikings are like a tier above that and are kind of in their own

thing here with these other teams. All right. We're going to say one more quick break and then come back and chat about. the top five. All right. So you had the Vikings at five, I had the Packers at five, right? No, the Vikings were my sixth. But you had the Vikings at six. Okay, so who'd you have at five? The Dallas Cowboys. This is where I had them. Oh, okay, a little bit higher. This is one where I think I, I really, really want to buy the ascending and young offensive line. I think maybe the reason I put them right behind my team at four is I just, there's a small amount of me that like does want to see it.

But this is a staff that I think that we were both really impressed by last year, like, in a way that we just didn't think that we would be. Like, Brian Schottenheimer and Clayton Adams really kicking up the gear the way that they did, I thought was awesome. And you can still very well see the upside case for this offensive line. And then to go to the talent thing, like having a wide receiver group with CD Lamb and George Pickens is there's a lot of easy in the offense when those two guys are out there. And so even if the tight end room is whatever in the running back room is kind of just okay,

I think a lot of those factors make it easy to see how you can, you can, make a really special offense just out of these pieces. Part of the reason I had the Cowboys in this tier and I had them at four was because, again, I'm falling in the same place that you do with Schottenheimer, Clayton Adams, the staff, with the structure of the offense, looked like all of that stuff. That's why I had them in this group. Why I had them a little bit higher is because of the receivers.

Like right now, where would you rank Pickens and Lamb among starting wide receiver duos in the NFL? I mean, Chase and Higgins is one. I mean, after that, you can kind of open the door, right? I think, I think it's them. Yeah, because, like, because I of those two, like, Justin Jefferson is a better player than either of those two, but I think both of these two are comfortably better than, like, Jordan Addison.

And Jordan Addison's a good player, but like... Much better. CD Lamb is a $30 million, like a justifiable $30 million receiver, and George Pickens was better than CD Lamb last year. Mm-hmm. Like, I really don't even know who... It probably is just Jamar Chase and T. Higgins. That might be it.

That's the reason that I had the Vikings'est. or the cat was as high as I did. Again, I like a lot of the things that they did last year, and I do think the offense is going to be even better with that staff in year two. He had a lot of guys there in the year, year one of their roles. Clayton Adams is first year as an offensive coordinator in the league.

It's a huge step up in responsibility. Their offensive line coach came from college. Like, I think there are just so many new elements to what that staff looked like last year. I do think they're going to be even better this year. And when you combine that with, to me, like what feels like the NFC version of what Chase and Higgins are giving you.

Like, I do think that they are firmly the second best duo now, now that AJ Brown and DeVante Smith are no longer together. So when you combine that with the enthusiasm for the staff, even with some of the questions about the offensive line, I do think those questions still exist, right? Tower Guyton was, is still a work in progress. Him coming into last season banged up is a huge bummer. I do have faith he can be better going through this offseason fully healthy.

You get Cooper Bibi back healthy for most of the season. And I still think that has a chance to be a really, really good group. And I'm maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt in the way I'm not with some of these other offensive lines. But one of the reasons that even with that in mind, I think the receivers just push them up so, so high for me that it was hard for me to put them any lower than four. I get that. Again, I think this just came down to like my team at four has a really good play call that I trust. And obviously this staff is pretty good too, but he's one of those untouchables. All right, so you had the Lions at three, so that means you had the Niners at four.

I had the Lions top three. I'm going to decide when I get there where I actually put them. But at four, I have the San Francisco 49ers, yes. And again, that ultimately comes down to the offensive line. Obviously, in San Francisco, I think is going to be worse than it is in Dallas. And obviously, I still think the top of the Dallas skill talent is probably better, if only because Mike Evans is getting older and George Kittle, like we'll see in terms of his health. But, like, Kyle's the man.

Like, Kyle Shanahan is incredible. Like, this to me, in the way that you were talking about, like, Matt Lafleur, kind of just Prince top 10 offense, Kyle Shanahan prints top five offense. And I do think I'm with him, I'm a little bit more willing to buy that despite the offensive line questions. The only, the Niners were firmly at the top of this, of this tier of teams. Like, they, I do think there's a separate, there is a separation between them

and the teams I have one and two, and we can talk about that. But the Niners were like a no doubt. about it. They were third overall and at the top of this tier. The only reason they're not in the group of teams I had at one, too, was because the run game just isn't like a dominant, like we can assert ourselves in this way sort of group. They were like dead on average as a running game last year. That's truly the only thing keeping,

and I think the offensive line talent and the ceiling that the offensive line overall gives them is not quite what it is for the teams of the top, in part because, again, they just can't assert themselves on the ground in the way that I think the Rams and the Bears can. So that's the only reason. that the Niners are like a small step back from those two teams. Other than that, I mean, just there's everything to like about this. I think that the Kyle Shanahan part of it is obviously undeniable.

Last year, they led the NFL in passing success rate. The Niners did, okay? The number, and overall, they did it as a team. 39.3% of their attempts went for first downs, which is the highest rate in the league. If you look at it by individual quarterback, Brock Purdy was number one in the NFL last year in passing success rate.

among players with at least 200 dropbacks. Who do you think was number two? Is it Mac? I was going to say like four if you were going to guess me to the number. That's insane. It's Mac Jones. So if we're trying to isolate the elements around the quarterback here, their quarterbacks finished one and two in passing success rate last year.

It's ridiculous how well put together this thing is consistently. And again, the only reason they are not up there at one and two with a couple of these other teams is that I do not feel like their run game had the same you level that the Bears and the Rams showed last year. That's the only reason. And to me, like, there probably is some amount of, I actually don't even know how much higher this would push them, but, like, you know, it is a fragile group.

Like, Kittle is literally coming off injury. Like McCaffrey has dealt with it before. Ricky Piersall is, you know, always kind of hurt despite how good he is when he plays. Mike Evans is getting older. Like, you can see the downside. But also the upside, if the offensive line is just fine the way that it has been and the way that Kyle Shanhan

has been able to work around them. And then these skill players can be like 85% of what we want this group to be. Holy shit, man, they're going to be so good. Fine admitting that I'm probably too low on the Lions. I'm fine admitting that. The idea that you have the Lions ahead of Kyle Shanahan in this list is, is, disrespectful. I just think I'm, I think it's disrespectful to the, to Shanahan specifically sure,

I think this lion's skill group. really feel like they are so underrated. I don't know how. I think they're really good. They're insanely good. You were the person earlier this off season who said he wouldn't draft Amon Ross St. Brown in the first round. Don't pretend like I don't love the lion's skill position players.

But they've got three other good guys. I love the lion's skill position players. I just think, again, the fact that you don't have, that you have that group ahead of Kyle Shanahan, I just think is funny. And I think part of the reason that I think even the talent level on those groups is more similar than you think. I am holding out hope. And maybe this is probably, there's danger in this.

I think if this group stays healthy, and if Kittle can come back and be on the field early in the season, which it seems like he might be able to. And this is a terrifying thing to say. But if Piersall can stay healthy, the combination of Mike Evans, even at this stage of his career, Kittle, Piersall, and McCaffrey,

to me is just absolutely terrifying. Like one of the things I went back and I watched a decent amount of nine or stuff before this because again, I it was, you know, the scopes and talent maybe isn't what it used to be. And the offensive line still have some questions about that. The running game was average. Like what is this group really doing to lift the quarterback even if the numbers are really good? What does it actually look like? I wanted to go back and just re-familiarize myself with that. There are so many things that drive this offense lifting the quarterback up.

And to me, it's like the way they use space. It's better than anybody. like how they use every inch horizontally of the field and make things really, really difficult on defenses when they get five out in the route, no one is doing it better than this team. And they're doing it more often than anybody. 79.4% of their past attempts last year

came with five guys out in the route. And I believe that's the highest percentage in the league. And one, that fifth guy is McCaffrey, it just changes the entire complexion of what defenses can do. But beyond the big picture takeaways and being reminded about how good it is, one of my other like conclusions while rewatching this shit is that i think pierce all is like a star

i legitimately think that he's like a star level player and so if he can stay healthy with kiddle with evans with mcalfrey and everything kyle shanahan is doing that to me is why they're still so high on a list like this that really might be all it is for me is it's like so many ifs with the skill players because i agree the this the like if you guarantee me 17 games for everybody on the lines and everybody on the 49ers, like, it's comparable. And then obviously the play calling is way better. I just, and maybe this is like stupid for an exercise like this,

but I'm just not confident that we're going to get that out of those guys. I want to see it. But I think I'm just like a tad more scared of it than I am with a team like the Lions. Among players with 50 targets last year, you know, Pierceall was fourth and first downs per target? I believe it. Fourth. All those outbreakers were, I believe, I don't have the list in front of me,

but I believe it was Pooka, pickens, and number one was kill. That's it. His teammate. That's crazy. Kendrick Bourne was sixth. Also believe it. Also believe it.

The Niners are very good. Kyle Shanahan is very, very good. So, all right. So I had the Niners at three. You had the Lions in your top three. Are you going to put the Lions at three? I'll go three. Yeah, yeah.

I'll go three. I think, I think enough about the bears is good enough that I have to put them at too. To me, it was a clear one to. Like, it was a clear one, two. The only reason it was not a clear one, two to me, obviously, again, I think Van Johnson is exceptional. I think the upside case for this offensive line is really high.

Not knowing what we're going to get at left tackle and then obviously having a huge downgrade at center does scare me a little bit. And then I like the young receivers. I think we're having to take like a little bit of a leap of faith to say that this. this is going to like continue to be a very, very good unit. Like I think Rome's great. I think Burden, you're having to take like a decent leap to say that he's going to be like a really strong number two.

I believe that's going to happen. I'm fully willing to. I think the Lions pass catchers and skill position talent overall is much better than the bears. Like a step above. I'm fully willing to say that. I think the positions, the staff puts those players in and what that does for the quarterback to me is just that's a different step. Like I think if there's a gap

between the Lions and Bears skill position talent, I think there's a significant gap, even if petting is good from what Ben Johnson is doing and what anybody else is doing other than like Sean McVeigh in the NFC, other than Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVeigh.

You look at it. The Bears, even that, the left tackle stuff, totally fine. They had questions at left tackle last year. It was a combination of Braxton Jones, Theo Bennett, and then Ozzie Tripillo,

they were still number one in the league in rushing six. They were dead last in the percentage of their runs the bears were where the back was hit behind the line of scrimmage. They led the league the bears did and the percentage of their throws to wide open receivers. That can be a self-selecting stat, right? If you look at tight window throw percentage, some of that is quarterback style, quarterback decision-making.

But I was talking to an analyst guy with a team this offseason and he told me their in-house separation metrics have the bears firmly at number one. And so that matches up anecdotally. It matches up with the numbers. Even if the individual talent to me is one step down from some of the other teams that I have ranked lower than them, I think the positions that talent is being put in combined with the talent being good enough is the reason that they are firmly number two on this list, in my opinion. I think ultimately I agree with that. I think there's just I have a there's a small ounce of me that is a little bit more not pessimistic, but I think just again, cautious. about what removing the center from that is all going to look like. And then, again, just like,

I will say what kind of got me over the wide receiver issue and is ultimately getting me there to say that they can be fine at too. Even though Roma Dunzei and Luther Burden is not like the craziest one-two receiver pairing. And even the receivers after that, I think it's a lot of unknowns or just a lot of role players. It's not an offense that is going to ask as much of their receivers in the sense that like they are running the ball a ton. They are putting two and three tight ends on the field a lot. And so. them having that issue, like I was able to get over it. I do think Ben Johnson puts your offense in as good a position as anybody,

and they have enough skill talent, especially if Loveland takes a step. Like, Loveland is already good. And if he takes another step, he really can be one of those like, oh, we just build the offense out of that guy. Even if he's the player he wasn't in the playoffs last year, I think you could feel pretty good about what that group looks like. And I think that Adunze being healthier this year and burden in year two, I just have faith that that can all come together.

and when you combine it with the environmental things we're talking about here, to me, like they were pretty clearly number two. And then we both, I assume, had the Rams at one. Yeah, I mean, I didn't even like put notes for this team. Like, it's so obviously the Rams that I did. There's not even like there. The offensive line is probably going to be good again. Sean McVeigh is always the best at this,

and they have an incredible wide receiver. Actually, if we were going back to the wide receiver duos, Pug and Devante Adams, maybe. You're having to talk yourself into Devante Adams maintaining this level of play at this age, which he kind of didn't at the back end of last year, but if he can again, they are also in that tier.

Where would you rank Pickens and Lamb among wide receiver duos in the league? Is it just Cincinnati? Rams Vikings have cases. That was the entirety of my notes. So the Rams are the only team we did not mention. The Rams absolutely are worth mentioning there, but I still feel like right now,

I think if we're limiting it to those two guys, just like top two guys, I think I'd rather have what the Cowboys have. But you have Pooka and Akua. You have their run game finish second in the league, and rushing success rate last year per next gen. They can just line the ball. They can just line up and run the ball at you,

which is like, you know, a luxury. Not everyone on this list has. Puka had 30 contested catches last year. 30. Which is crazy because like when he came into the league, that's not real. Like he made contested catches over the middle, right? Like going into like car crashes

and being willing able to make those catches. But as like a sideline ballerina make styles of catches like that, That's not really what he did. And then last year, he just learned to go up and get the ball on the sideline and learn how to make, you know, tip, toe tap catches on the sideline. Like him adding that element to his game, we already knew they were going to get some of that when they brought in Devante Adams.

And then to get it also out of Pukunuku, it was like it just didn't feel like they have that much more to give. And then the offense always finds a layer. I was one of the areas where the Rams had a slight edge for me because I think the Bears, if you're like, I do think the bear situation is really, really good. The one area where I think the bear's situation is lacking, is that there were a lot of 50-50 plays left on the field for them last year. Rome caught seven of his 30 contested targets last year.

Puka had 30 of those. So the Bears combined had 33 contested catches per next gen. And that's driven down a little bit because there was a lot of open receivers. But they still only had 33 contested catches. Puka had 30 on his own. No other receiver in the league had more than 22. So the environment, the star level talent, the overall quality of the run game,

the fact that they always feel like they're a half step ahead. Like, they were pretty clearly number one for me, even if I do think the Bears and the Lions, or the Bears and the Rams belong in their own tier at the top. And that's a good way to put it, because I think if these two teams are kind of close for all those similar reasons,

Pooka and Devante Adams, for different reasons, just feel like cheat codes in a way that maybe Colston Loveland can be that for them next year, but isn't up to that level yet. Whereas like Devante Adams in the Red Zone was as good as you could possibly be, and then Pukunakua is just like an offense unto himself. And so, yeah, those two put them over the top just a little bit.

I will say a funny response to the AFC group was that we had the Broncos at number one because we wanted diminish what Bo Nix is doing. I put the bears at number two. This is not all about trying to prop up the young quarterback that you root for. Like I'm fully willing to admit that whatever Caleb Williams does this season, he is getting a hell of a lot of help in doing it. Right. Those two things can't really run, like, congruent with each other where we're doing that for Bo Nick so that we can shit on him.

But then we have, if we're putting Caleb here, we're like, okay, well, then the Bears' expectations for Caleb are pretty damn high if we're saying that they're the second best offense. We were probably say in the NFL, right? Like, if we were doing the All 32, like, I'd probably put them up, yeah, I'd put them above the Broncos. Absolutely. And I think part again, I think that right now, to me, Johnson and McVeigh, Shanahan just exists in like a slightly different area. And I think the Bears run game quality and what that run game looked like last year, that's the reason they a slight knot over the Niners. That's it. All right. So let's run through these very quickly.

I had Washington at 16, the Giants at 15, Panthers at 14, Cardinals at 13, Bucks at 12, Saints at 11, tier break, Falcons at 10, lions at 9, Seahawks at 8, Eagles at 7, could flip any of those. I want to say that again. Tier break. Vikings at 6, Packers at 5, Cowboys at 4, Niners at 3, tier break, bears at 2, Rams at 1. All right. I had the commanders at the bottom at 16, and then I had the giants at 15, Panthers 14, Saints, 13, Cardinals, 12, Buccaneers, 11th, Seahawks 10th, Packers, 9th, Eagles at 8,

Falcons at 7, Vikings at 6, Cowboys at 5, Niners at, I don't remember if I flipped them or not. I'm going to still say four, and then Lions at 3. You got four. You had the lions ahead of Kyle Shandah, and I remember, and we'll continue to. I was trying to remember if I did that or not. I'm willing to roll with it. But yeah, that was my list. I fully admit that having the Lions in that third tier could come back to haunt me,

but I still feel like right now, the continuity with the play calling and all of those other places is the reason that they just belong a slight step down. But I feel overall, I feel the only thing again, when I changed it, I think the Falcons belong in that tier with the Lions of Seahawks and the Eagles. It's the only thing for my original list that I think you swayed me on. Other than that, you're very wrong about the teams that we disagreed about. We'll see about the Falcons. All right, that is all we've got for today.

We will be back tomorrow with our next lingering question series, just stuff that we wanted to go back and reexamine from the end of last year that we just might not have had the time to do in real time. Very excited about continuing those conversations for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating.

We'll see you next time.