The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Which NFL offensive lines are better than you think?

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Brandon Thorn of the Trench Warfare newsletter joins Robert Mays to take stock of the league's offensive lines and debate which units might be better than people give them credit for.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Our old buddy Brandon Thorne from the Trench Warfare Substack, Offensive Line Expert, Officianado, Brandon Thorne is going to be joining us. We're going to do an offensive line reset today. I just think it's a good time of the year to take stock of where some of these units sit.

Obviously, we did the supporting casts over the last week or so with Damien and Mike Clay. But today we're going to talk about the offensive. line specifically. We're not going to go through every team, but I wanted to talk about some groups that Brandon thought was maybe better than the crowds might believe, or groups that may be worse than history might lead us to believe. We're going to talk about some offensive linemen specifically that could swing these units one way or another. So just really enjoyed, and as I always do, digging into this stuff with Brandon, who it was more thorough and more complete in the work he does in this space around offensive linemen than pretty much anybody else in football media.

So hope you guys enjoyed our conversation with Brandon Thorne. Let's get to it. Joining us now from the Trench Warfare Substack and one of my favorite voices in the offensive line space that there is to offer. It's Brandon Thorne. Brandon, how you doing, man? I'm doing great, Robert, man. I'm excited to do this and just came out with some rankings for offensive lines. So it's good timing, I think.

I saw that last week. This was completely coincidental. I had no idea that you were putting out those rankings last week for Establish the Run. For people who don't know, establish the run, which is the fantasy site that Adam Levittan and Evan Silva started several years ago, they do great work. You've done their offensive line rankings now for at least three or four years, right? I mean, since their inception, I would have to guess. Yeah, yeah, they just posted their five-year anniversary tweet today, like, to the day. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure the first year they started, I was with them.

So, yeah, it's been great being, you know, a part of that group and just bringing offensive line to the fantasy conversation has been really cool. well. And it's necessary because in order to understand the context around these guys, you have to understand the quality of the lines that we're discussing. And that's what I wanted to do today. And this is reset season. I think that a lot of people are doing this where we're taking a step back and taking stock of what these rosters look like, what these situations look like. And I wanted to do a full scale version of this for the offensive lines just because it feels worth it. I mean, I'm thinking about the general scope of the league, the landscape of the league, and looking at your rankings, but even before that, and just think,

you know what, there would be real value in a discussion about who's better than we think, who's worse than we think, who are the guys that are really going to make or break some of these lines heading into 2024. And that's what we're going to dig into today. This is a wide-ranging discussion about the state of offensive line play in the NFL and which teams we should be paying attention to. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it is early, you know, we haven't even had training camp and things like that. So things could probably shift a little bit, you know, with, of course, injuries, but then also just some lineup questions that still need to be answered. But I think for the most part, this is a good time to at least do kind of an overview and then, you know, some,

you know, more nuanced kind of conversations as well. But yeah, it's, it's a really good time, I think, in the calendar to do kind of a state of a union type of thing for offensive line. I didn't want to go through your entire rankings just because that would take a very long time. And, you know, a lot of the teams in the middle aren't overly interesting. What I really wanted to dig into with you was where might our assumptions about some of these lines be misguided? There are offensive lines that are better or worse than we think. And so that's kind of where I had you start with some of these categories that we're going to dig into today. So let's begin with the offensive lines that are actually better than conventional wisdom and the general NFL fan

might think they are. Where did you start with this group of four? We're going to divide a lot of these into groups of four. Yeah, so I mean, I'm trying to gauge what I think the general public thinks about offensive line with this, so I don't know how far off I'll be necessarily. But, you know, with that said, I think the Colts are definitely the first unit that I think of that people may see as still being a unit that took a step back a couple years ago, you know, with the Matt Ryan year and just how everything kind of fell apart there. last year they kind of had a bounce back season collectively as a unit.

I think a lot of that had to do with not only the quarterback, but more so than anything, Shan Steichen and the scheme, I think, really helped out. And, you know, the players are still pretty much the players, at least the big three, you know, Quentin Nelson, Braden Smith, Ryan Kelly. But I think the reason why I am pretty high on them, along with kind of the infrastructure that they're operating in, quarterback and scheme, is the other two positions, left tackle and right guard. that they have hit with recent draft bricks, and Bernard Raymond at left tackle in the third round, I believe.

And then right guard Will Fries in the seventh round, who I think is turned into a really solid player, kind of like an Alex Kappa sort of player, very reminiscent in play style. So I don't really see a clear weakness on this offensive line, which is one of the big kind of benchmarks that you want to see cleared for offensive lines in general. They have star power, you know,

with Quentin Nelson, who's coming off a great year, really good players and Ryan Kelly and Brayden Smith. So yeah, man, I mean, I feel like they just kind of retooled it very quickly and for a couple different reasons, draft and scheme and coaching and things like that. And then Anthony Richardson, I'm excited to see him in a full year in this system as well. This is a group that had made no changes personnel-wise from 2020 to 23. And I was worried about that. And we'll have our Will Fry's conversation for which I'll eat around a lot of Crow a little bit later on this show. But other than that, the infrastructure point, I think is the most important one here, because if you're going to keep all five of your

component parts from a bad offensive line, and then you're going to become a good offensive line the next year, situation is the most important part of that, even if you're going to account for incremental improvements among the individual guys. When you say that the Colts scheme set these guys up for success better than they were in 2022, what elements of that stuck out to you? And what do you think the most important differences were? I mean, I would say, well, first of all, having a different quarterback back there, at least initially Anthony Richardson, somebody who can move. Gardner-Minsure, you know, can move a little bit. But I think scheme-wise, it's heavy RPO and play action and, you know, just being a balanced sort of offense, but really not putting these guys in a lot of

situations where they're in true drop-back situations, you know, as past protectors. And I think that is the most difficult part of playing offensive line in the NFL. And if you can minimize those exposures, then chances are guys are going to perform better. So I think that first and foremost is kind of a common theme that we're going to probably touch on with some other things that we have probably plan later in terms of just ecosystems and infrastructures that are really offensive line friendly. But I think typically it's balanced or run first offenses that are high in play action and RPO's. Those are generally the schemes and systems that are more friendly and conducive for success for offensive line because it minimizes the most difficult part of playing the position.

And there are a couple guys that I just thought played so much better. Obviously, Bernard Raymond, he came on a little bit in the end of the 2022 season. You know, this is somebody who is an older prospect, but was not a very experienced prospect, which is kind of a weird combination of things, but that's what he was. You know, coming over, he wasn't born in the U.S., and, you know, came to the game a little bit later. I think there are some play strength concerns with him coming in, even though he was a really good tester. And I think in the back half of 2022, you saw, you saw, you some flashes about what he could be. But even a guy like Ryan Kelly, it felt like he was really on the downturn of his career when you watched him in that 2022 season. And the bounceback was

remarkable last year. And he was dealing with some personal things in his life. And, you know, obviously the death of his son and there's so many things going on for him. But to watch him play at that level, I just did not expect this group to be what is in your estimation, one of the best five offensive lines in the league, by adding no pieces to a group that was probably a bottom quarter offensive line in the NFL in 2022. It was remarkable. Yeah, and it just goes back to how important situation is for offensive line, you know, among other positions as well, but especially offensive line. What guys are being asked to do versus what they're not being asked to do, I think is just so critical for what type of player we see on a year-to-year basis. And then,

yeah, having all five starters return, I think is another kind of helpful point here, continuity, not only as a unit, but also within the same scheme as well. So those are kind of other little check marks I would add to it as well. But yeah, just the infrastructure piece is just critical, and I think can't be overstated, really. Next one on your list, one more offensive line, a couple more here, but your next offensive line that you think is a little bit better than people from the outside might expect or think.

So I put the Cowboys here because I think I saw the Warren Sharp and his offensive line rankings come out. He posted all 32 on Twitter and I glanced at it. And I saw Cowboys with like bottom 10 or something, which I could kind of understand, but I have them top 10. So you have them at sixth in your rankings. I was so excited to talk about this because when I saw that, I was like, oh, man, that is a real bet on the star power and this organization's ability to develop these guys. It is.

It is, for sure. And, you know, granted, that is tier three, but it is top of tier three. So, yeah, still, yeah, for sure. I'm higher probably on them than most. But yeah, you mentioned it. It starts with what I think is the best guard duo in the league with Tyler Smith and Zach Martin. You know, the Browns have a case for that as well with Betonio and Teller. But I would probably go Smith and Martin there.

So Tyler Smith, superstar and Zach Martin at the end, but, you know, first ballot hall of fame are most likely. So that's really kind of the pillars of the line. And then just to keep it on the inside to wrap that up, I think the center, whoever is going to play there, whether it's Cooper Bibi or Brock Hoffman, I think that's going to be a least functional play. So not a major weakness. So the interior is probably going to be... What makes you say that about Hoffman? Because Bibi, I think, was somebody that everyone loved in the process. People that know what to do with him because of the arm length concerns. Moving him inside to center, I actually think is really creative, potential use of him and maybe the best spot for him. I don't know a ton about

about Brock Hoffman. What makes you think he'd be functional if he ends up being the guy there? Yeah, I just liked Hoffman in the time that he has played. over the last year or so, including preseason, but he's played a decent amount just with guys being kind of in and out of the lineup, Guard, and Center. I see a serviceable level starter here at Center for him. And for me, I mean, I think it's really his ability to stick on blocks in the run game in particular. He's crafty in past protection, not the most overly powerful or strong guy, but definitely crafty enough in past protection. And I think he, you know, does some nice things in the run game.

So, you know, that's what I've seen from him and studying his tape a little bit. So I would imagine if I had to bet Cooper Beebe would probably win this job, if not play more snaps than Hoffman this year. But, you know, worst case scenario, I guess, if BB gets beat out or gets hurt or whatever, I still see Hoffman being pretty good.

So it's nice at the depth either way. Having one more guy that's functional on the interior as we watch these teams that completely implode when they don't have workable bodies there. If you got an extra, not just icing on the cake. Exactly. So if we operate under the assumption that the interior is going to be very good with, you know, an okay to, you know, decent center, then, you know, tackle position definitely has more question marks.

But I think starting on the right side with Terrence Steel coming back, second year removed from a major knee surgery that he had leading up to last season that I think caused him to start really slow and just take a step back overall last year compared to the year prior to that. he had the best year of his career. So I'm expecting a little bit in the middle, I guess, of the last two years for Steele, if not back to what he was two years ago. I think that's definitely feasible. And if that's the case, he was arguably the best run blocking right tackle in the NFL a couple years ago with him and Zach Martin. They were dominant together.

No one blinked when he got that deal. I mean, when he got that contract, it was like, yeah, he's played at that level. So him taking the step back that he did last year, I think the injury context for that is very, very important. And I don't think a lot of people were thinking about that. Yeah, it's important context to consider. And if I think we're playing it safe and he's in the middle of the last two years, then fine. You know, he's probably just going to be a really good run blocker, decent pass blocker.

Okay. And then really the big question to me is left tackle. However, they invested a first round pick and Tyler Guyton. So this is a guy that they're obviously very high on. And understandably so, just looking at him on paper and just watching him move. those two things in terms of size, measurable, length, and then sheer movement skills, very special in that regard. Now, technique-wise, experience-wise, there's a lot of questions.

He's very green, very raw. It's going to take some time for him, especially moving over to the left tackle because he played right tackle in college. But this is a guy two, three years ago, I think, was playing tight-end in college at TCU before he transferred to Oklahoma, and he only got, I think, a year and a half or two there. So, you know, he's very young, 21 years old. So it's probably going to be a little bumpy, but I would expect him to settle in, you know, over the course of the season, especially considering he's playing next to Tyler Smith, who might be the best left guard in football, you know, certainly in the conversation for it. So just considering all of that, considering the Cowboys' ability to develop the position traditionally, still having a guy like Zach Martin in there, just to kind of lead the room.

And then also I also really like to consider quarterback play in my projection of offensive line. I think Dag Prescott's one of the best quarterbacks in the league at mitigating pressure in the pocket. I think his pressure to sack ratio over the last four or five years is one of the five or six best in the NFL. He's consistently good at mitigating pressure. So that's another piece of it too because my questions really are in past protection with Guyton and Steel. So just having that quarterback that can make those guys a little bit better. I just feel like this is a, you know, a talented offensive line with kind of a good mix of, you know, an injection of youth with the talent that's already there, good system, good quarterback. So, yeah, I just feel like the recipe is there for this to be a good line this year.

It feels like Mike Solari got lost in the mix a little bit. He was the offensive line coach. He's currently the offensive line coach for the Cowboys. He was in San Francisco when they were just destroying people when they had the best offensive line in the NFL during the Harbaugh era. and he was the assistant offensive line coach in Green Bay for a year. I remember talking to him when he was there, and then he went to the Giants for a couple years. And it just feels like the Giants offensively have been such a vortex of suck

that we haven't talked about anything good that's happened there for a very long time. But Mike has done this for a while, and he's gotten pretty good results in pretty much every single spot he's been in. And so betting on an offensive line coach with his level of experience and kind of the proof in the pudding, I think that's also something that kind of makes them, gives them a little bit of an edge over some of these other teams. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

So the next one for me would be the books. And the reason why I put them in there is because I think it starts at tackle, just with what they did last year, the way that they handled that position for Worf's to move over to left, and then Godecchi to move from left guard as a rookie back to right tackle, which is where he played at Central Michigan in year two. He had a tremendous year, especially in context of what he was at left guard, which was not good at all,

to definitely above average, I think, right tackle. It was shocking. It was shocking. Watching him play left guard in 2022 and then watching the player that he was last year, I think you could make a serious argument that he was probably, he might have been the most improved player in the NFL last season. Yeah, that's absolutely, it's great. It's kind of funny to say that no one would guess him.

But yeah, I mean, if you watch offensive line, you watch him, he's definitely in that conversation. So above average, right tackle is how I'm looking at it. And then elite left tackle. So that's really where it starts with those two. And then the interior, I'm probably a little bit higher on them than most. I'm assuming that Graham Barton is going to come in and be a good player right away at center. You know, I honestly would like to see him play left guard, but from the sound of it, it looks like he's going to play center.

But who knows? But either way, I expect him to be good. How do you think he translates there? I mean, in terms of his skill set, because obviously this is going to be something where we've never really seen it before. It's a projection. but what makes you confident that he can align with what you need from a guy in that position? I just think he checks all the boxes that you're looking for at an interior guy in general, but Center, I don't know that it would be much different than what he would be at Guard.

I just see Guard as a higher value position, so I'd want to see him there first. But, I mean, the processing skills certainly, I think at Center would be, you know, seamless for him. and just in terms of how he led the offensive line at Duke, just his work ethic there, his just a football character, all the things that typically you think of a high-level center having, you know, just being a quarterback of the line, leader of the line, doing all the little things right. And he's just kind of a pro right away.

So he checks like all the intangible sort of boxes, you know, for sure. But then I just think you're getting a high upside center here in terms of the physical traits, play strength, powerful, really good run blocker, very physical and very athletic. I mean, he was one of the five best offensive linemen in a loaded draft this past class, in my opinion.

So I just can't see many scenarios where he's not at least average, but I'm expecting above average for him, if not, you know, I think that's kind of the floor for him. I think you can make an argument that he might be, if you consider size and movement skills,

you might be able to, able to make an argument that he from day one would have a case as the most athletically gifted center in the entire NFL, depending on like what you think movement wise with Ragnow, because Ragnos obviously a monster in terms of like his frame. But they don't really build centers like this. So the fact that they're dropping him into that spot, he's already just a unique character and like a unique force in that role. Yeah, and it's kind of reminiscent of the Jensen type of role that he was. he was a very unique sort of player as well. So, yeah, I just think it's going to be night and day with what they've had with Robert Hainsey there,

who is just a guy who's undersized, not very strong, got better over the last couple of years. I think he's going to be a really nice and depth piece now, which is really cool to have for them. Now all of a sudden that's a plus, you know, to have that depth on the inside. That's another kind of plus in their offensive line outlook overall as well. The biggest question, you know, is really at the guard spots. I think Cody Malk though, you know, definitely needs to get bigger and stronger, settle in a little bit more at the position, moved positions, you know, as a rookie from a small school. You know, so he definitely, I think it's fair to assume that he's going to get a little bit bigger and stronger, considering he wasn't coming from an SEC or Big Ten school or anything like that. And you definitely saw some nice flashes for him in terms of recovering.

You see some of the athletic ability and body control and pass protection. you also see him get blown up, but you see some of the recover ability as well. So you just want more stable there. But there's certainly the ability there, I think, to get more stable in year two. You know, or I guess it would be year three, right? No, Mac is too.

No, because of Rookie last year. Yeah. And that's why I think that you could project that moving forward. I mean, you watch him play. He knows what he's supposed to do. He just physically last year could not hold up in some of those moments. It was pretty obvious. We talked about that a little bit last week.

So I'm with you. though. I think that that case for why they could be better with Barton being sort of a force multiplier, mock taking a step forward physically, and the tackles being already a good combination, and not even baking in a little bit more development from Kadeki, it's pretty easy to see why this could be a top half of the league offensive line. And I don't know if a lot of people see them that way. Yeah, exactly. And even left guard, they have this guy named Elijah Klein, who they picked in the six round or something. I wouldn't be surprised if he won that job from Ben Brady. Justin who I think he's competing with.

He's kind of a sneaky, like, developmental guy who's maybe a little bit more than a developmental guy who can actually be decent this year as well. So that's kind of a dark horse guy there that I kind of like as well. What do you make it Kevin Carberry? Because he's the offensive line coach there. He was in Los Angeles two years ago with the Rams. He got fired along with a couple of the other assistants that they had as they were me making that offensive staff.

But what do you think of the work that he did in L.A.? And what do you think of him being dropped in there, which you'll Gilbert moving on to join Dave Conallis in Carolina. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to kind of distinguish him from what the Rams were under Sean McVeigh and like to see his imprint there, because I don't think he was necessarily there very long. These are two years, I think. Yeah, two years, because before that was like maybe Chrome or somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, but yeah, I mean, just coming from the McVeigh system and maybe incorporating a little bit, I would like to see this offensive line incorporate a little bit more multiple of a scheme. And I think it could help in the run game just based on where he's from. I don't know a lot of specifics about him other than just kind of the general stuff. But I think any sort of little additions to the run game and coordinating the run game for this offensive line would be nice, considering what they were last year as a rushing team. So, yeah, I mean, I think there would be... Would you think that was more a product of scheme, or do you think that was a product of a scheme?

or do you think that was a product of ineffective play along the interior and also some guys getting hurt on the interior? Like if you had to kind of pin down, this is why the Bucks had one of the worst running games in the NFL last year, what would you probably land on? I'd probably land honestly more on personnel and just not having enough push and strength on the interior. When you had Hainesie next to Malk, those are two guys that are kind of struggling with the same thing. and that's very difficult to overcome if you're trying to execute combo blocks and double teams and even single blocks when you have guys right next to each other

that can't really hold up and hold the point of attack consistently that's very difficult to overcome maybe if they're spread out like a right tackle on a left guard that might be a little bit easier to mitigate but when they're right next to each other like that on the interior plus up and down play from left guard I just think their interior

was pretty rough last year so yeah they I misspoke most of their offensive line played the entire season actually. Aaron Stinney missed a few games. I was inflating them with why the Texans couldn't run the ball last year. It was just the wrong guys out there. It's not the fact that they were hurt. So that good thing to kind of point out and remember. What's your last one here? Your fourth offensive line that you think is actually a little bit better than some people on the outside might believe. So I don't know exactly how people are seeing this team, but I think this offensive line

could be very good. And that's the Rams. So and that really starts with the interior offensive line, which I think has a case this year going in to be one of the five best interior lines in the league, I would guess. And, you know, there's a little bit of projection there moving last year's rookie left guard, Steve Avila, to center. But he played center more at TCU than left guard, a couple more starts. So I think that shouldn't be too difficult of a transition for him. And now all of a sudden you have the biggest center in the NFL in Steve Avila, which is kind of cool, especially for what they want to do. and then you insert Jonah Jackson at Left Guard, who I'm very high on. He kind of had a down year last year battling injury, but still relatively young, was excellent in 2022,

and even 2021 had some really nice moments. I think they got a very good starter there, assuming just health was the only thing holding him back last year, which I think it was. So Jonah Jackson, Steve Avila, and then Kevin Dotson, that might be the most physically imposing interior in the entire NFL in terms of run blocking. And considering what Sean McVeigh has morphed into, you know, with this duo-led run game, this could be a lot of fun this year. And I think that's where it's spearheaded for sure. Then you look at tackle, right tackle. Rob Havenstein is the same guy every year, essentially, solid. You know, if unspectacular, he's definitely solid. He kind of does everything well, you know, a solid to above average starter there. The real question for me is a left tackle, which I'm assuming

Alaric Jackson is going to be that starter. I know Joseph Nobom is still there, but I think Alaric Jackson will start. He has a lot of questions in pass protection, especially against higher-end competition. That's going to be kind of his Achilles heel, but he is a powerful run blocker, you know, if nothing else. So this is, there's no mistaking

what this offensive line is built for and what they're going to try to do, and I think they're going to do it well. There are some holes you could poke and pass protection off the edges, I think. But I just think this is going to be a very, very good run-block offensive line and with the McVeigh touch, you know, there with all the window dressing and all that.

I mean, I'm pretty high on this offensive line. It's also nice to have, I mean, obviously, Haventstein isn't a superstar, but he's solid enough. Having one real weak link and pass protection, you can account for that. That's something you can build in contingencies for, and I think that's the most important part. You can live with two weak links, or you can live with one. Having two is where things start to get a little bit dicey, and the Rams are not in that spot. So I'm with you. I'm very excited to see what a thousand pounds of interior offensive wine play can do in a scheme like this. Let's get to the other side of this. Let's talk about

some offensive wines that whether it be their reputation, some of the previous success that they'd had, some of the moves they made this off season that were high profile. Let's talk about four offensive lines that you think are actually a little bit worse than people might assume. Where did you want to start with this? So I think we'll start with kind of the most surprising one to me, on what they were last year in the last few years, and that's the Baltimore Ravens. So, you know, considering they were probably a top 10 unit last year, right now I have them projected as kind of like a bottom 10 unit. And just because they have three new starters, and with, I think, seven combined starts between them. So a rookie and Roger Rosengarten

of right tackle, and then Andrew Voorhees, who's a guy who's coming off of a season-ending injury, I think suffered at the combine last year that kept him out. you know, as a rookie, so he hasn't played. He's a seventh round pick as a result of that, pushed him down the draft a little bit more. Yeah, probably like a third or fourth round pick, if not for the injury, you know, somewhere like that.

And then they have another new starter as well at right guard. So, you know, that, having three new starters there, guys who haven't really played. And then your second best starter at this point is probably Ronnie Stanley, and we don't know if he's just going to be able to hold up. I know the last couple years he's played double-digit

games. He hasn't really reclaimed what he was prior to that devastating injury that he had. He's probably a solid starter now, which is kind of sad to say, honestly, considering what he was when he got that big deal. I don't foresee that necessarily getting much better. And then he still always has that durability question now where it seems like it could kind of fall apart at any moment. So, you know, Tyler Linderbaum is the best starter on this offensive line, and he's a very good young center, one of the five or six best centers in the league. You definitely have that going for you. You have Lamar, of course, that makes things a little bit easier, you know, to deal with in terms of pressure. But there's just a lot of question marks here, and we're not used to that from a Ravens

offensive line. And, you know, I mean, it's Baltimore and their ability to develop, especially in the trenches, is outstanding. So we'll see. But going in, this is the most pessimistic kind of feeling that I've had on this offensive line in recent memory. I'm with you. And when I looked at that group when free agency or the first couple of waves of free agency were over, I was just a little bit surprised that they weren't more proactive in trying to add bodies to it. I think that's probably a vote of confidence in Voorhees who we've never seen, right? So it's hard to put any sort of stock into that. But the fact that they weren't aggressive at all in adding bodies to the interior was a little bit surprising. And the Stanley thing, even if he's

out there, I mean, he's swapping snaps. He's in and out of the lineup. It's just so hard to rely on what he is at this stage of his career. Were you surprised that either in the draft or in free agency at some level, they didn't add to this group with a couple more bodies than they did? I am a little bit surprised, yeah. At the same time, Baltimore going with in-house development isn't too surprising either, but I still was expecting a little bit more. I will say they do have Patrick McCarrie, who's one of the best backup offensive linemen in the league.

so that's worthwhile to point out but he's a really good backup he's not really a guy you once He can play anywhere He's played everywhere Right right Which is really cool to have So maybe if two of these three new guys

Works out I think that's probably what they're hoping for And then Macari could pick up the slack If one of those guys doesn't That's probably the idea here That two of those three will work out It's not a terrible bet But I'm just not particularly high

Individually my point of view on Borges coming out, even pre-injury, and then Rosengarten coming out, I thought he had some major play strength issues as well. He came out early. Once Washington's essentially almost their whole team transferred or left, once their coaching staff left and all that, he kind of like left late. I thought he honestly maybe could have stayed, but he went in the second round, so, you know,

I thought he was probably going to go a little bit later. He's definitely talented and athletic. I just have play strength concerns with him. So there's some individual evaluations on top of just the newness of it that leads me to believe that, you know, they're probably going to look a lot different than they wore last year, at least initially. So that's why I have Baltimore there. I feel like I've said this 100 times over the course of this offseason. But what happened with John Simpson last year and the fact that this is a guy who got waived by the Raiders came in and was a positive influence on the Ravens offensive line, got a decent contract and free agency from the Jets? that's what you're betting on. You're betting on that sort of history where, okay, who's going to be

this year's version of John Simpson? And it's hard not to give them the benefit of the doubt because they've consistently been able to do that. But it does feel like what they're doing this year and the group that they're betting on is going to test that theory in a pretty big way. Yeah, absolutely. I have them ranked low right now, but I would say the arrow is pointed up. I'm going in very low, but I would assume that they're going to, figure it out and be decent by the end of the year. But yeah, they're betting on a lot of kind of risky bets here, I think, more than we're used to, for sure.

Who's your next one here? An offensive line that you think might be a little bit worse than conventional wisdom might lead us to believe. Yeah, so the next one for me is the Carolina Panthers. And I, you know, there's some caveats here because they're going to be better than they they were last year, you know. They have to be. The bar is not very high.

Obviously, they're one of the two or three worst units in the league. So I think I have them projected 24th right now. So that's better. It's workable and it's improved. However, I think people may be getting a little carried away with just how much of an improvement we're going to see here specifically in past protection. Just because the guys that they dished out all the money to a guard, Damien Lewis and Robert Hunt, those guys are like big, powerful, imposing guys moving at you in the run game. staying in front of guys in pass protection is a different story, especially considering with Robert Hunt where he's coming from in Miami,

maybe the most offensive line-friendly scheme of the league, some of those things got hidden. And then Damian Lewis just wasn't that great of a past protector in Seattle. But these guys definitely changed the whole entire demeanor of the offensive line, and I think that's what they were going for. So I totally get that. But in terms of dropping back in the past protection, in like true dropback pass game.

I don't see this being a very good offensive line. With those two guys, they're going to have a guy, maybe an Oster Corbett who's never played center in the NFL coming off a major injury. And then left tackle, Iki Akwano, obviously took a step back, but not maybe as big of a step back as some thought, I don't think, because I don't think he was very good as a rookie as a pass protector. It was more workable than he was last year, but it definitely took a step back. So when do we start hitting the alarm bell there?

When do we start pressing the panic button? not Aquano after this year because when I went back and watched their offense a couple weeks ago and went in an FC Southpot, I'll be honest with you. I'm concerned. Yeah. So it was concerning, honestly, there was concerning moments at NC State, but it was overshadowed by being such a dynamic run blocker, which he has not been featured in this offense to date as a run blocker nearly enough. They need to be utilizing this guy like he's Trent Williams in the run game because based on what he was in college, he needs to be a guy that's pulling, leading, and being a featured piece of the run game, you just don't see that in

Carolina. He's just kind of utilized as just another left tackle in the run game, which the whole idea of Iki Akwano was this guy is a dynamic run blocker. The past bro, yeah, it's shaky. Yeah, maybe it could get better. But, like, yeah, I just hope that this guy is really featured this season in the run game, because I think if he at least can have those strengths to lean on and be featured, I'm sure that would make his confidence go up. I'm sure that would kind of bleed into the pass pro a little bit.

But if you're expecting him to just sit here and drop back past, pass protect like he's, you know, Joe Thomas or something, I mean, you're just not getting that. You know, that's not him. So the thing that made him a great prospect, he hasn't done or hasn't really had the opportunity to be featured very much doing it. And I think that's a huge part of why we are where we are with Ikea Kuanu right now at this point. So hopefully year three, this is the year I think where I would start getting really alarmed if he wasn't

making an impact in the run game and at least a little bit better in past protection. The caveats that we had about the Colts and how in 2022 the situation was bad enough that everything started to devolve around it. The same coach and the same sort of baseline offensive approach was installed with the Panthers last year.

So you would hope that it's just a better situation and even with the guys who are the same faces, we get better play out of them in 2023. If they don't, then I think that that team is going to be a little bit of trouble. Because I'm with you. I like what Damien Lewis offers in the run game. He is

frustrating in past protection. And Robert Hunt is an intriguing idea, but I think he's more of an idea at this point than he is somebody you can rely on to be a top tier guard no matter what he's making. Yeah, I agree. I mean, Robert Hunt is a sheer enforcer kind of guy. He's one of the

biggest, like, bully kind of offensive linemen in the league. And that's great. But if you're expecting him to, you know, line up against these high level three techniques one-on-one and pass protect him, that's a whole different story, especially if it's not as a friendly of a scheme as he was in with the Dolphins. So, yeah. Who is your next team here that the offensive line might be a little bit worse than conventional wisdom would lead us to believe? Yeah, that's Miami Dolphins. So, you know, with the Dolphins, see, the thing is, I don't think, you know, to a man individually, personnel-wise, this is a very good offensive line.

any way you slice it. However, it doesn't really matter because Tua's getting the ball out so fast that pressure is mitigated that way. And then the run game is so conducive for success in terms of all the advantageous angles that are being built in by Mike McDaniel through motion and just how they're setting up their offensive line that, I mean, it's kind of funny, but it just it doesn't matter a whole lot. However, as attrition comes along and guys get, you know, have injury concerns. They're best players to Ron Armstead, which he's not in there. The offensive line is definitely different because he's literally the best player on the

line, probably the only starter who is good or better on the whole offensive line as well. So if he goes down, which he has a propensity to do, then everything kind of falls apart pretty quickly. You know, so especially in high leverage situations late in the year, I know that you guys have talked about on the show and it's been talked about the Dolphins. offense starts out hot and kind of sputters, and there might be a variety of reasons for that. But I think one of those is the offensive line being exposed, being injured, not having depth. And now they're going into the year with probably not as promising of a roster on paper as they

had last year on paper. So that is really scary to me because I was worried about this group last year. And it's a bet on Isaiah win. And obviously he gets hurt because that's what his history has been since he's essentially. been in the league, and now we got Liam Eichenberg playing more than we want him to, and it feels like that's almost an inevitability again this year. And like you said, it doesn't matter for most of the year. But we talked about this on our AFCE show when they want to be able to click into a different version of their running game and they want to run the ball downhill, they do not have the

bodies to do it. They are not set up to do that. When they cannot rely on those angles and getting the ball on the perimeter, the run game just doesn't look the same. And it feels like they're doubling down on that strategy. I mean, going out and signing Aaron Brewer is your center is a declaration that we are going to be an outside zone, out perimeter sort of run game again. And I understand that

because they had a lot of success there last year, but I just think it has painted them into a little bit of a corner schematically and given them a lack of flexibility that a lot of the other really, really good offensive lines in the NFL, they've gone the other way with. And I think that they've reaped the benefits of it as a result.

Yeah. Yeah. And this is kind of a theme with the Shanahan tree as well. With Kyle Shanahan in San Francisco, they've been able to kind of get away with doing this on the offensive line because of how great the scheme is and typically the playmakers are and how well they get them the ball in space and things like that. So I understand sort of the general approach, but this is to the extreme this year, as we're saying, and it's just dicey, you know, I think, and there's really no depth here. And you have multiple guys with injury concerns. So while I think they're probably going to come out firing like they always do and the run

game's going to look really good, I just think later in the year, man, it could fall apart quickly. What was the fourth one you wanted to throw out here? Is an offensive line that you think might be a little bit worse than some people think? So I'm going to go with the Green Bay Packers here. And I think that this one might be a little bit spicy for some people. It absolutely is. When I saw this, I was a little bit surprised.

And I was surprised about how low you had them in your rankings when you were doing it league-wide. I mean, you have them in the bottom half of the league at the top of tier four, which you deemed below-average offensive lines. And I think that is surprising for people. Why do you feel that way about Green Bay? Yeah, so 18th overall. And my rankings are geared towards past protection. So I'm trying to isolate that, especially. So that's why teams like the dolphins and things aren't a little bit higher. But for me, I think you have to look at this offensive line in two ways, individually first, and then just sort of the ecosystem and the system that they're operating within. So I think this is one of the most offensive line

friendly schemes in football. If you look at play action percentage, this is an extremely efficient offense in the run game, and they have a quarterback now in Jordan Love, who's very good at mitigating pressure. So you watch the tape of guys like Zach Tom, for instance, against high-level competition, the Max Crosby game. He did good against C.J. Watt. There was a couple other games, really good rushers. Aidan Hutchson gave him a good amount of trouble. And there was another one that is escaping me right now.

But when you run the filters on like I have true media and I run the filters, you know, get out play action, get out the screens, you know, try to watch these true drop back past, you know, reps. These guys have a lot of questions as past protectors and they have new guys coming into the lineup this year as well. So I guess the best player on the line would be Elton Jenkins, Zach Tom, those are your two guys, I would say. They're both better run blockers than pass blockers. Elton Jenkins has been dinged up quite a bit. And you have a new starter at left tackle, possibly with Jordan Morgan. If he wins the job from Rashid Walker, we don't necessarily know what's going to happen there.

It could be Walker at left, Jordan Morgan at right guard. Which one do you prefer? Do you think that it is a better offensive line with Rashid Walker at left tackle and their first round? Jordan Morgan at right guard, or do you think it's a better offensive line with Jordan Morgan at left tackle and somebody like Sean Ryan or whoever you want to put at right guard? Honestly, I'd probably go Jordan Morgan

at left tackle and Sean Ryan at right guard, but I don't feel great about it because I don't like either of the options at left tackle, to be honest, long term. You could get by with it, especially if Elton Jenkins is there and he's healthy and he's there for 15, 16, 17 games, okay, but if he were to get hurt

and all of a sudden you have one of these left tackles in Walker and Morgan who maybe is still kind of figuring it out or is inconsistent. That left side could be a little bit of an issue. And then at center, Josh Myers, up and down, I would say, at best. You know, he does some nice things in the run game. He moves really

well. He can cut off linebackers. That's why whenever you whatever you guys all shit on Josh Myers, which feels like it's like a thing on the football internet these days is for people to be worried about Josh Myers. I just have these like five run blocking reps in my mind where he's pulling out in space. And I'm like,

I kind of like Josh Myers. And then I have to pull myself back because I know that when it gets down to it, it's third and eight. There are some issues to worry about. Yeah, and this is going back to Ohio State and just who he was. He came, I remember doing his evaluation. He came from a wingtie offense in high school, you know, running the ball, you know, 90% of the time.

And then Ohio State, he was just a really good run blocker who didn't have to pass protect a whole lot, at least, you know, being isolated. And it's still kind of the case now. He just isn't very comfortable as a pass protector, but he's a really good. really good run blocker. So that's Josh Myers. And then right guard, say it's Sean Ryan and Zach Tom at right tackle. So I just think the Tom piece too, I just think we're getting a little too ahead of ourselves here with Zach Tom as a past protector in a lot of these situations. This happens. This is the same thing that's happening with Braxton Jones to an extent

where everyone's like, oh, he's good. He's good. For a fifth round pick, he is workable. Like, we have to put all of this stuff into context. Just because he is a fifth round pick and is good enough for you to not actively replace does not mean that he is an above average or quality starter. It's important to kind of get into the nitty gritty and the details of that when we're discussing players. And I would just say watch him against the best competition. And also you need to watch the reps where he doesn't have additional help or play action or things like that. When he has to actually be isolated against these guys.

And I think his main issue is dealing with speed to power and inside moves. He just struggles with that. He's very athletic. And if guys are using speed rushes up around the edge, he's very good at kind of sticking on those guys and washing them past the pocket, you know, aka T.J. Watt, who's a heavy outside, you know, kind of lane rusher. And Zach Tom performed pretty well against him. But the guys who could go inside and challenge him with power and things like that, it's just still a work in progress.

I think this is a good player, you know, a nice piece, but, you know, if he's your second best player and your first best player is Elton Jenkins, who honestly has some durability questions, it just, to me, that's kind of fragile, especially when you're focused on offensive line in past protection, which I kind of am with these rankings. But it does get mitigated to a large degree in the run game, and this is a good run-blocking unit. So, you know, it's a middle of the pack sort of unit, in my opinion, that's probably a little bit more below average in past protection. again, we're betting big on the scheme

and their ability to mitigate that. They deserve the benefit of the doubt in terms of what they've been able to crank out in both player development and in terms of being able to paper over some of this stuff. And the quarterback, I think, does it on two fronts.

One, the pressure to saccharate last year was very, very good. He was just good at avoiding disastrous negative plays, but also his ability to find space late in the down and make space for himself in the pocket. He's one of those guys

that's actually making his offensive line better from two different, directions and there are not that many quarterbacks in the NFL that you can say that about. That's a really good distinction for sure. And I would put Dak Prescott in that category as well. I see him buying time really well for himself as well. Yeah, there's some quarterbacks that just do that at a high level, but I like that distinction because it is two different things. Let's get to some offensive lines that it doesn't matter what other people from the outside think of them. What are the units going into the season that you are just really worried about their ability

to feel the functioning NFL offense because of what this group might look like. So for me there's two, really, that stand out this year. And that's the Washington commanders and the New England Patriots. And both these teams have very young. They don't have top three picks of quarterback. It's fine. They'll be great. Well, that's the thing.

Typically, when teams pick quarterbacks very highly, we know the offensive lines usually aren't very good, which is kind of nice for the bears this season, having a little bit better than this for sure. But, yeah, I mean, these teams picked high for a reason. and part of that is offensive line-based. And I think these two teams are kind of going through rebuilds, essentially. I mean, they have stopgap options at basically every spot. If not, you know, the best case scenario is like the commanders.

Their best player, their most proven player is Tyler Biatish, who in Dallas was the fifth best starter. Well, maybe fourth best with Steele taking a step back last year, but the year prior, definitely the fifth best starter. So he's your first best starter now. So that kind of says it all right there. The hierarchy here is so different than most of, you know, the upper tier offensive lines that everybody else, there's question marks. Sam Cosmey, I would say, is the most talented offensive linemen on the commanders. The arrows pointed up, but he's still unproven. We still need to see more of it.

But he could be a good starter this year. That's certainly within the realm of possibility. So you have those two- position switch. I mean, he's had to work through a lot of different stuff. But I agree. When you actually watch, like, what he's working with in the toolbox there, it's easy to get encouraged about him.

Absolutely. So, you know, that's the positive side. But everywhere else, just a lot of question marks. Andrew Wiley is your third best player on the offensive line who, you know, he's fine. He's him and Nick Allegredi, both former chiefs who stepped in, you know, as swing backups and played well in their short time as starters. And they both got paid because of it. I think part of that is, you know, bringing some of the chiefs juju over with them, you know. and they're really good guys to have in the offensive line room

and things like that for a young line and things like that. But these guys are just overmatched against good or better pass rushers, specifically in past projections. So I just have a lot of questions with those two guys. And then at Left Tackle, I'm hoping Brandon Coleman is going to win this job. I don't know that you want Cornelius Lucas out there as your week one starter. He's a nice backup to have, I guess. But Brandon Coleman, I liked a lot coming out.

but there's some question marks here. She's a third round pick. Yeah. We don't have many day one third round pick starters at left tackle. There have been a couple success stories recently. We talked about Bernard Raymond, but that took a while for him to get to that spot. And again, Braxton Jones was solid as a rookie.

He was a fifth round pick. But there's a reason that you find most of these guys in the top 40 of the NFL draft. It is very hard to have rookie third to fifth rounders dropped in as your starter, especially at left tackle. expect to get much out of them straight out of the gate. And it matters straight out of the gate when you're dropping the second or third overall pick back there, which both Washington and the Patriots

are doing. Right. So, yeah, and it also helps not having Sam Howell back there, who, you know, wasn't the best at dealing with pressure. So, you know, that could help a little bit, too. But going in, there's a lot of question marks here and not a ton of upside either, I don't think, at least this year. That's a really good point, though. When you've papered it over with stopgap free agents, of the likes of Allegretti and Wiley and things like that, even if you're shooting for the middle. Like, that's what you're doing. You're just trying to get to workability.

And that's very different than what a group like Dallas is doing, where at least their question marks have a really wrong runway where you can anticipate this getting better over the long term. With Washington, it's harder to talk yourself into that. And there's nobody really on the depth chart that you could see coming in and sort of riding the ship either. There's really nobody there. I guess Michael Dieter would be your guy on the interior if things go haywire.

I like Ricky Stromberg coming out, but he's a center-only kind of guy, and you have Biatish now. So that's kind of, you know, kind of a moot point there. So it's like there's no depth here really either. So whereas Dallas, I like some of the death pieces as well with the higher-end talent. So yeah. But the Patriots would be my other unit here. First of all, one of the biggest head scratchers for me this offseason was their decision to go with Chukes Akorafor, who was barely a starting right tackle in Pittsburgh the last few years,

and now they're thinking he's going to be their left tackle. At least initially, I have a feeling that the rookie that they drafted Penn State, right tackle. Caden Wallace might be the guy at left tackle eventually this season. But if Akora 4 is your number one guy, this kind of feels like the Andre Diller thing last year that Tennessee was betting on him to all of a sudden be kind of this reliable left tackle after he wasn't. This is going to be potentially worse. At least Andre Dillard got like a three-year deal for modest money.

It wasn't starting tackle money. Didn't a Kora4Sign for one year and four million bucks? If that's what you can get your starting left tackle for, this is one of those situations that sometimes you just spend, you should spend money on certain things. I made the joke like sushi is one of those things. Don't buy sushi at the gas station. Don't spend $4 million on your left tackle.

That is just not something you should be doing from a team building perspective. I agree. I agree. And I'm encouraged by Scott Peters, first time offensive line coach, longtime understudy of Bill Callahan, kind of has a unique MMA sort of approach. And he's very good with biomechanics and all these things and kind of a cutting edge approach, which should be really cool for him to get his own room. So I will say that's kind of an overall optimistic kind of view of it. But you've long been a Scott Peters guy. This is going to be an interesting moment for you now that he got his own room to see how this goes. You're heavily invested here in a way that I think no one else in America outside of Scott Peters's household might be.

Right. Yeah, you're probably right about that. But yeah, so I am encouraged by that. However, I'm going in with them ranked 31st, so I'm not letting that bias affect it too much. I don't think. You're a professional. I appreciate that. But, you know, just I think David Andrews is the most reliable probably starter on this unit. Him or Mike of Wanda, those are your two best players. But there's question marks everywhere else.

What do you think about CitySau at right guard? So him and on WANU last year in the run game, those two guys were bashing people's heads in in the run game. I mean, just, you know, they were very good on kind of those vertical inside zone, duo-based double teams. But pass protection was, it was kind of night and day with those two. So now he's moving sides back to his college position at left guard. I guess that would be better, even though I thought he was starting to settle in at right guard.

I think a lot of this is up in the air too in New England. And I think it's center David Andrews is the only spot that's kind of locked in right now. Unduano could potentially play guard here if Caden Wallace plays right tackle or if he doesn't play left. So there's a lot of moving parts here. But Mike and Wano, like, you know, I just don't see a very good pass protector of right tackle, man. I mean, when you watch him on film, I just don't think he has very good range to deal with speed off the edge. And that's kind of his Achilles heel. He's a really good run blocker.

I think he's a guard. He should be a guard. I would love it if Cato Wallace could, you know, take over that role in him and On Wano, I think that could be really nice. But if he's your right tackle, that's not terrible, you know, especially in the run game. So just a lot of questions. But C.D. So just to touch on that again, the run game, I think the run blocking was very good. But pass pro, he's just very, like, heavy-handed, stiff, and not very, his dexterity isn't very good. He doesn't adapt and recover very well. It's kind of hit or miss. and guys who are good with their hands

can just kind of beat him quick and he just loses too glaringly too quickly that needs to be cleaned up I mean part of this is hurt by Cole Strange your first round pick in 21 being hurt may not even start the year so now C.D. So is probably going to have to play left that hurts kind of the whole

development of your offensive line there's some pieces here I like on the interior like as run blockers later Robinson even Antonio Maffey but like pass pro it's going to be a tall task for Scott Peters to to get

a functional pass protection unit out of this group, I think. It'd be interesting to see what happens with the quarterback spot. It feels like Daniels is more likely to be the day one starter for Washington than Drake May is for New England. I think they've come out and said that, you know, that it feels

like it's going to be Kobe percent for at least a little while. I am in favor of that because I think it's good for your rookie quarterback to get experience. But behind a bad offensive line, there is such thing as too much exposure to those sorts of circumstances. And in New England,

I pretty clearly think that that's what's going on, where 17 games behind that group is probably not good for a young quarterback. That can leave some scar tissue that leads to issues. In Washington, you could probably make the same argument, but it does feel like Jane Daniels is probably going to be the guy

there from day one in a way that Drake may not be. Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point. So, yeah, I would like to, you know, ease these guys in considering the situations. I think that would probably be the best approach, just to kind of see what you have, you know, make some changes as needed. Maybe you trade for somebody.

Maybe you sign somebody. I'm sure a lot of this will be figured out in camp. And, you know, these two units could look a lot different, you know, come, you know, end of training camp. I wouldn't be shocked. There's still some guys out there that they could potentially add. Well, let's play this out. Let's do the Bernard Raymond game for both of the third round tackles

that Washington and New England took. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Coleman and Kane Wallace win the job at left tackle. Letting them figure out the first half of their season before you drop your quarterback in there,

the same way the Colts did with Bernard Raymond in 2022, that's probably a good thing. Letting that group kind of get settled before you put the most important player on your roster and the guy who will define the next five years of your franchise, I think that is a fine approach. I don't think they will both take it. I think the history tells us

that those guys will play a sooner round than later, but I think that there is some benefits to approaching it that way, and we'll see how both of those teams end up deciding. Speaking of young offensive linemen, I wanted to talk about a couple of guys that you think can be X factors that could swing these units one way or another, because somebody, you know, we've talked about a couple of these groups where they're either rookies or second year players that if that guy hits, this offensive line looks a lot different than if he doesn't. So let's go through some of those guys.

Who was the first one that came to mind for you? Yeah, the first one for me is Steelers' left tackle, Broderick Jones. So, you know, played last year at Wright, and I think was a very good run blocker, did some really nice things in the run game. They pulled him at right tackle and, you know, featured his athletic ability and his explosiveness really well. But pass protection was a wild ride. And I think it could be, again, this year, switching spots back to left after he played that in college. But briefly, I mean, he was, he was an inexperienced college player. I think he was only a one-year starter. George so, yeah. Yeah, so, you know, one year left tackle played right as a rookie, now he was going back to left. That's a lot of bouncing around. He does have the run game aspect to his game to kind of hang his hat on, which is always nice to kind of build confidence. But I think if he could take a step in past protection and be more reliable, I'm just talking solid, reliable level, then the Steelers' offensive line could be really good this season. There's a couple of young guys on this offensive line where we could say that about, but I think Broderick Jones is the,

number one guy because there's such a disparity between what he does well and what he needs to improve upon. So I just would like to see more of kind of a stable pass protector because right now I don't think that we have that. If he can be that, what do you expect from Zach Frazier, the center they drafted in the second round and Troy Fonaut, who was their first round pick, what do you expect from them just maybe baseline median outcome as rookies for each of those two guys? so I see a pretty high floor for both of those guys for I would say different reasons I don't know that Frazier's ceiling is as high as Fontenus I see Fontenou having a higher ceiling just being more of kind of an all pro pro bowl caliber sort of ceiling whereas Frazier I see you know maybe like a guy we just talked about like a David Andrews sort of center you know a guy you could stick in there for a long time he's going to be a you know he's going to be a huge benefit to a young quarterback to a whatever quarterback you have in there. And he's just going to do everything pretty well

and he's going to be a good run blocker and things like that. That's kind of how I see him being. So maybe like a top 10, top 12 center or so. You know, as a rookie, that wouldn't surprise me at all. He's an older prospect. He's played a lot of football. I think he's ready to go right away. Fontneau is relatively older, not as experienced,

but super talented. He was one of the three best offensive linemen in this class, in my opinion. Dynamic run blocker. and plenty of juice and movement skills and recovery skills as a past protector to figure that out as well. Maybe some of the best hands that you'll see as a past protector in terms of speed and dexterity. He's just very good at mirroring and reacting and staying in front of guys. So, yeah, I mean, I really like what they've done with the offensive line with kind of the injection of youth. I think this has a chance to be the best Steelers offensive line that we've seen since the fostered pouncy to

Castro days. So I think that's what we're seeing here. I think that's pretty comfortably. Even if it doesn't hit the ceiling, I think that there's a chance it could be that because this was a weakness for years. And I think people want to attribute this physicality and this toughness and the Steelers are that sort of team. And that did not manifest on the offensive line for several seasons. And I think we could forget that in a hurry if this group clicks, but this is not that De Castro group that it used to be. So I think that's a very good thing to point out. You and I were talking about this a couple weeks ago. I like Isaac Salmallo. I think he is a really nice piece. I think he's smart. I like the play style. But this is what you need. You need to go from a group where

Salmallow might be your best offensive lineman to by the end of this season, the hope would be he's third and potentially even fourth if things go well. That's how you go from being a serviceable offensive line to an offensive line that's dictating games. And I think that the Steelers have that sort of upside in the way that they have built this group. Yeah, perfectly said, I just think they've changed the hierarchy of the offensive line now, whereas last year, Ciamallo was the best offensive lineman on the unit going into the season. And this year, now you have the prospect of him being that third or fourth best guy by the

end of the year. And obviously, that's what they're hoping and banking on. And then add in also, this is an Arthur Smith offense now. This is totally different than what we've seen in terms of what they're going to be asked to the situations they're going to find themselves in. Now, granted, Russell Wilson is not going to help your offensive line. Justin Fields will not help your offensive line that much. But I do like the scheme a good amount.

So, yeah, that's kind of another plus, I would say, overall as well. So this leads me to ask you, you're still relatively high on the Falcons offensive line. So you think that while Arthur Smith and the way that they approach things, all the play action, just the construction of the run game, it does allow you to get the most out of somebody like Caleb McGarry, but you don't think that a schematic, change in Atlanta is going to do too much to detract from what that group is personnel-wise? No, not necessarily. I mean, you know, I think Zach Robinson has a lot of promise as, you know, an offensive coordinator based on the places he's been.

So I don't know that the scheme will change too dramatically, you know, for one. And then having all five starters back. And the same offensive line coach. Same offensive line coach. They retained Dwayne Ledford as well. Yeah. So there's some continuity there. than you would typically see with kind of a changing and head coach and both coordinators.

And then the coordinator difference, I don't know, is too drastic either. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure that they're going to be, you know, a good offensive line this year. I feel pretty good about them. All right, let's keep ticking through these guys, some of these younger X factors that you think could swing an offensive line one way or the other. Who's the other next guy you had? Yeah, so Tyler Geithen, which we talked about a little bit already, a rookie left tackle for the Cowboys from Oklahoma, first-round pick. Just a guy, you know, they kind of made this bet with Tyler Smith, you know, as well, just

uber talented, very raw, needs a lot of work with his technique, specifically in past protection, and just not losing layeringly, you know, and minimizing those. And he did that at Oklahoma, so you would expect that with a position switch to happen in the NFL against NFL competition. So, you know, it could be pretty dicey, like I said, but certainly has the talent and the traits, kind of the toolkit that you would want to see of a first round pick. So, yeah, I mean, I think if he, you know, is a stabilizing force by the end of the year, and he's minimizing those glaring losses in pass protection, and he's doing all the,

you know, the dynamic things in the run game, him and Tyler Smith could be a lot of fun in the run game. I think if you have that, then this offensive line could be, you know, that top 10-ish unit that I, you know, projected. and that's kind of what I'm expecting as a year goes on. But a lot is riding on it because if he just doesn't get there and he's very up and down and very inconsistent, that will change a big dynamic with this offensive line. So I think the Cowboys have a lot riding on him. It's a great point to bring up the success that Tower Smith had as a reason to potentially be optimistic about what Tower Guyton can be,

because it's a very similar story. It's a guy who's a little bit raw, tools base that you're taken in the first round. And the way that the Tower Smithing has worked out, this is another team that I think deserves the benefit of the doubt when you project things moving forward. Who's your next one here? One of these younger X-factors that could swing things. So there's another rookie that I think is going to be crucial to the offensive line this year, and that's Taliesae Fulaga for the Saints, who I think right now is projected to play left tackle,

which I had questions of his ability to play tackle in the NFL. Yeah, not just left tackle, just tackle, period. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, definitely he's going to be a really good run blocker. I think right away. But pass protection, there was a question mark at right tackle. I posted a little 10-clip montage thing of him losing the same way against a cross-chop move in college last year, right-tackle at Oregon State, which was like a 60-40 run-pass split offense. This was a heavy run-past-spit offense.

I would imagine it's not going to be a 60-40 run-pass split in New Orleans. He's going to be pass-protecting a lot more against a lot better players at a different position. I have a lot of questions on that. But I think his ability to deal with that is going to be huge for this offensive line because of the other questions that they have, namely with Ryan Ramchick and right tackle, maybe not even playing football anymore, which would force Trevor Penning into the lineup there.

And if you have Penning and Fawaguay's your tackles and Fulagga struggles as a pass protector, which I think he might, man, you know, it's tough to see this offensive line being outside of a top or bottom 10 unit. I actually see this unit being a little bit better, assuming Ramcheck is going to be playing football. If he doesn't, that'll change where I have them in the rankings as of now. But I think Fawaga, his ability to handle the switch is just probably the most important single player on the offensive line this year for the Saints, especially because you're going to have a new left guard in there as well. So there's just a lot of uncertainty and kind of turnover with the Saints' offensive line that we're not accustomed to.

and I think he's the kind of the lynch pin on how it's going to go. And that makes total sense. And then the new left guard is Nick Salisari, who they drafted in the fourth round in 2020, what do you think of him stepping into that role this year? Next to two guys, McCoy, who I think is a high-level center,

and Ruiz, who is, you know, he works as your right guard. I think it's been a little bit frustrating in terms of what he could be. But if that, if Ramchek plays and you have McCoy, Ruiz, Ramchek, and Fawaga hits, then that can be a solid group, but Ramchick doesn't play.

and you have those two guys at center or right guard who are fine but then Sal DeVary is disappointing then things are completely different than the best case scenario and what that looks like. Yeah, there's the variance level

with the Saints offensive line is the highest we've seen in a long, long time, several years for sure. So yeah, and that speaks to it. But Sal DeVary is a guy who I liked a lot coming out from a small school

old dominion, right? Old Dominion, yeah, he played right tackle. And he was a really good pass protector you know, I think he could be a really good pass-protecting guard, does need to get stronger, you know, things like a typical small school sort of profile in terms of play strength and size needs to get a little bit better.

But I think he could be a good pass protector right away, and he can hang, you know, with some of these three techniques in the NFL. Now, granted, he's doing a position switch, and he's never played yet, or he's played very little. So it's going to be, you know, that left side, concerns me, but I do like, you know, kind of what they could be. But it really is contingent on Ram check playing because if you at least have that trio center over to the right side, then you have something to hang your hat on and you could kind of shift and, you know,

move additional help and things like that to your left side. But if you don't have Ramcheck there, it could fall apart pretty quickly. The Fulagut thing, I had kind of a wider ranging question to ask you about him because it, the conversation we had about acute quantity, and the Iki Aquano thing reminds me of Mackay Becht in a little bit, these guys who were run-blocking mallers in college who didn't necessarily figure it out as past protectors. If you, and I know it's situation-dependent, but on a baseline level,

if you had to take an elite run-blocker from college that was a work-in-progress as a pass-blocker or an elite pass-blocker who was a work-in-progress as a run-blocker, which do you think is the better bet among those two profiles for players? I would say the elite pass protector is more rare, so I would probably just want to go with that just based on sheer scarcity, you know, in supply and demand. So that's like the Fashanu compared to Mackay-backed dinner Fawaga sort of conversation. Pretty much, yeah, yeah, I would probably want to go with that. Now, you know, depending on the situation in the scheme, if they're going to a Shanahan sort of place, you know, I'd probably go with the, you know, elite rum blocker because that's what he's going to be asked to do more.

and he's going to be featured in doing that. But just generally speaking, I tend to go with what's more rare, just because that's harder to develop. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And we've had some guys that, Audrey Dillard, again, being another good example, who was a very good past protector in college,

didn't necessarily figure it out. There are bad examples and bad history on both sides, but I think there have been enough elite run blockers who haven't necessarily figured it out that that's just going to keep coming back in my head as we talk about these sort of guys. I will say one more caveat to that too is I think honestly having an elite run blocker on the other side of the coin might be easier to translate to the NFL as well because if you're an elite pass protector in college, the jump in competition versus the pass rushers versus the run defenders that you're going to be seeing, I think is more stark where the past rushers in the NFL are just so much better than what you're going to see in college generally. Whereas the run defenders, you know, there's probably not as much variance there. So that is, you know, I'm kind of

convincing myself of, you know, a different answer here and going with the elite run blocker. But I could see both sides, you know, just based on the level of competition and that elite level run blocker having an easier time kind of translating that. The last thing I wanted to ask you, and we've touched on this with a few of these teams, but I think it's important for people to have in mind as we go toward another season. I want you to lay out some of the teams that you just think do a good job of helping their offensive line and they've created a system and an infrastructure that leads to better offensive line play than the talent might indicate. Because as you look at the stuff on paper, I think it's tempting to say like, oh, that's a good group, that's a bad

group. And then we get to the year, that's never how it plays out. And I think coaching and structure plays such a huge role in that. So who are these teams that you think just do a really good job of getting the most out of this group, no matter who they're trotting out there. Yeah, so, you know, I put it in my notes here, but it all goes back to that infamous, not infamous, but famous 2013 Washington Redskins staff with Kyle Shanahan, Malfour, you know, Sean McVeigh, Mike McDaniel, and Bobby Sloick, who were all running offenses right now. Those teams would be the top of the list for me.

And then you would add in a couple elite offensive line coaches, Jeff Stalton with the Eagles, Bill Callahan now with the Titans. And then I would also add in Andy Reid and Andy Heck in KC. Those would be the, what is that, seven or eight teams right there? That would probably be my top choice and the most obvious.

Now, the ones that are less obvious to me would be some new ones, the Chargers, Jim Harbaugh and Greg Roman. That's, I think, fairly obvious as well, but they are new. What about them? What about them would lead you to believe that we're going to get better results

from that group last year? that better results from that group than we have over the last couple years. This might be overly simplistic, but they're going to run the ball a lot, most likely, and they're going to utilize a lot of play action. And, you know, you would assume so at least based on their histories. And Jim Harbaugh's ability to churn out good offensive line play has been steady since, I mean, Stanford, I guess, all the way through. He's had good offensive lines everywhere. Every team doesn't matter the level.

they're good on all down on the offensive line multiple david de castro mentions on this show so far dude yeah going back to de castro and then i mean the lines at san francisco uh michigan they've won the joe morrow war two years in a row is the most of outstanding offensive line in the country and then gregg roman just bringing that run that he's such a good run game coordinator and designer of the run game that i think is going to help you know any offensive line as well just kind of lean on a run game as opposed to you know, being in these bad situations as past protectors. So really, that one, I think, is somewhat obvious, even though we haven't seen it from Harbaugh in the NFL in a while.

We touched on Arthur Smith with the Steelers. I think that's another one. The Colts, Shane Steichen, and then the Lions with Ben Johnson and Hank Frey. Those, to me, are the most offensive line-friendly schemes in the NFL. Yeah, it's about half of them. And then the groups that are the other way, that's groups that in your mind, the run game is not well thought out

when they don't run the ball enough, a lot of pure dropback, just putting guys on islands and in disadvantageous situations a little bit too often. Those are the hallmarks of those sorts of units in your mind. Yep, and then also you factor in the quarterback play as well,

which is a factor as well. So just that's kind of, just dependent on the specific team. But offensive line and pass protection and even in the run game, but that's much more hard, much more difficult to decipher in terms of checks at the line,

they're getting into, what they're getting out of, those sorts of things. That's hard to decipher for us watching film. But quarterbacks do affect the run game in that way. You know, Tom Brady had that great piece on the Colin Coward show where he talked about, you know, the looks that he would get into and out of being his barometer of success as a quarterback. I think that's huge for the run game. But past protection is easier to see for us watching film. And that's just dealing with pressure and not allowing pressure to turn into sacks, buying yourself time, things like that. So. the last thing I wanted to ask you, and we've touched on two of these already, I don't think we have to rehash them. I wanted to talk about the offensive lines that in your mind had the widest range of outcomes in 2024.

We talked about the Saints with Fuaga. I think that's a very good one. We talked about the Cowboys with those couple rookies. I think that's a very good one. There's one more team that you wanted to talk about here that I don't think we should leave an offensive line discussion without hitting on, and which was that third team for you? So that's in New York Jets. and, you know, I think the main reason for that is durability concerns with some of their key players. Now, I will say I do like some of the depth pieces that are in place so that can help stabilize things if these guys were to get injured. But they still would take a pretty significant step back just because most of these guys, you know, are backups for a reason and they're just going to take a step back. And their best player on the line now is Tyrant Smith.

and we know that Tyron Smith averages about 11 or 12 games a year over the last 5, 6, 7 years. Granted, he's coming off in all-pro season where he was outstanding and it was a vintage year, but he did start 13 games, I think, so... And that's an outwire. That 13 games

is the exception for him at the stage of his career. Yeah, I think the average is like 11, you know, 11 or 12. So, yeah, if he's your best player and you have those concerns, that's one thing. Now, you do have Olo for Shauna waiting in the wings, which is great. So, you know, that's nice, but still it's a rookie, and you're probably going to take a step back there, at least in the interim.

And then Morgan Moses has been an iron man his whole career, but started to get, he tore his labor last year, played through most of it for the majority of the year, only missed a couple games, but he was not what he was prior. He is older. Now he has been able to be durables, but now there's all of a sudden maybe a little bit of a question mark there. and is he going to start falling apart more and more as he ages, or is he just going to reclaim that durability this late in his career? I have some questions there. Elijah Vera Tucker, extremely talented player, has had devastating season-ending injuries two years in a row,

so you have a lot of concerns there. And then John Simpson is coming off of a really nice year, but this is kind of a, you know, not necessarily a journeyman, but kind of a career swing backup sort of guy. Is he all of a sudden just, is he now just a full-blown, full-time, quality starter long-term? I'm not super convinced of that necessarily either. And then Joe Tipman last year was very up and down.

I really like what he could do in the run game, but I get some Josh Myers vibes here, to be honest. So I just have questions there. I like West Schweitzer as a backup interior guy and then Olufashanu, Carter Warren, There's some promise here, but the variance level here with the Jets, I think is pretty high, and it worries me a little bit. I think it's important to point out in your offense line rankings, you're the Jets ninth.

I mean, this is an above-average group for you, and that's obviously the best-case scenario, but you start removing pieces and guys that, again, it doesn't require much imagination to think about these guys getting hurt. We see pretty much every single year. So you take out Tyrant Smith and you take out Elijah Vera Tucker, even with Fashanu, that's a rookie. You never know what's going to happen with the rookie left tackle, especially somebody who's not going to be getting. I would assume a ton of first team reps in camp. I think it would behoove them to do that and give Tyrant Smith a little bit of a breather.

But if you put Fashano and Wes Schweitzer in there for those two guys and we get Carter Warren playing seven games for Morgan Moses, things start to look a lot different, even if you're optimistic about some of those depth pieces. Yeah, exactly. It's just having this many pieces on your offensive line that are up in age or up in age and with injury concerns, you know, that that's just kind of a recipe for high variance, low floor, you know, sort of offensive line. And that's why I wanted to mention them. All righty. Well, that is all we got. It's always good to do this with you, my friend. Having a yearly check-in about where offensive lines are, what the offensive line prospects

look like. I will be doing this for as long as I do this show. So I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to do it. feel like this is a good time in the calendar to take a step back and take stock a lot of this stuff. Hey, man. I'm just happy that you've been able to find time for me still on your show, considering where it is now and the fact that you still make room for offensive line is really cool and I love doing it. So thanks. I always will because I do think that it is a hugely important component for us to take into account as we think about why these teams succeed or why they fail. And it's going to be the exact same way again this year. So really appreciate you taking the time. please tell people where they can find

the very thorough work that you were doing on these offensive lines all the time. Yeah, so people can go to trench warfare.substack.com and subscribe to my newsletter there, have my offensive line almanac and top 75 offensive line and all those sorts of things coming out here soon. And offensive line masterminds is here in two weeks.

I'm going to have some content around that. And then establish the run would be another place. And then Bleacher Report in season for college draft prospects and scouting reports. Please go read all of that stuff. There's nobody who attacks this space in the way that Brandon does. It is indispensable work. And we appreciate you sharing with us, buddy. We'll talk to you later. All right, guys, that's all we got. And that's all we got for this week. This is our only show of the week. We're going to let you guys have a little bit of time as we take a little bit of

time during the Fourth of July weekend. So we will be back starting next week with our normal three show week schedule. It'll be Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. But that is all for now on the athletic Football Show. Enjoy your Fourth of July weekend. We will be back next Tuesday. Talk to you guys later. This was the Athletic Football Show.