The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Who'd You Rather?: A series of this-or-that decisions with Yahoo's Charles McDonald; Plus, Jon Robinson's firing with Joe Rexrode

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

It's a staple of sports talk. Would you rather be this team or that team for the future? We've had some fun with it on The Athletic Football Show this season. So much fun, in fact, that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. Charles McDonald from Yahoo joins Robert Mays on this episode to dig into such Who'd You Rathers as Lions vs. Jaguars, Justin Jefferson vs. Micah Parsons and Broncos vs. Cardinals. Plus, The Athletic's Titans beat reporter Joe Rexrode joins the show to discuss the stunning firing of GM Jon Robinson.Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube3:47 Lions or Jaguars14:40 Vikings or Titans, but you have to keep Cousins/Tannehill21:10 Justin Jefferson or Micah Parsons27:59 Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo + $5m38:24 Falcons or Panthers45:25 Broncos or Cardinals57:29 Titans fire GM Jon Robinson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Joe Rex wrote, one of our Titans writers at The Athletic, is going to be joining us a little bit later to talk about pretty shocking news that the Titans decided to fire their general manager in December when they were winning the division and had just given him an extension in February.

They're a consistent playoff team. I can't remember any timing like this for this sort of move for a team that's positioned like the Titans are. So excited to talk to Joe and just get some clarity on what the hell was going on there. But before we get there, I am very pleased to welcome from Yahoo, one of our favorite guests here on the athletic football show. Charles McDonald, how are you doing, man? I'm doing good. I'm trying to convince myself that I haven't hit like that late season wall yet.

I'm trying to keep myself going, but I'm happy to be here and talk some ball. definitely beats writing, you know, so I get a nice little break from that. You don't have to tell me. I'm trying to be post-writing at some point, you know? Well, well, listen, we're on the same page there. I do miss it. I do miss it. I'm chipping away in some stuff right now.

I may be right in here before the end of the year. Yeah, the post, I always hit a wall, like, right around Thanksgiving. And I usually come in for a landing. We go to Miami for Thanksgiving. and even not having to record on that Thursday and getting a couple days, I usually feel refreshed. And then I woke up this morning after doing the hangover with Sando yesterday and realized I'm not refreshed. It's December.

We're 13 weeks into the season. So it's going to be okay. Playoff time is right around the corner. We're almost there. The playoffs often save us. So we're in that little bit of a lull where the cream is kind of separated itself. We know who the playoffs teams are. We know who the teams are.

They're going to be drafting in the top five. If you guys want to go back and listen to some teams that are, in rebuilding mode or really kind of had disappointing seasons. We talked about 10 different teams last week with Jordan Roderick and Daniel Jeremiah on this show. We'll have plenty of time as we get going here over the next month, talk about the teams that are Super Bowl contenders and what that looks like. So we wanted to do something a little bit different, a little bit fun today. A couple times over the last few weeks, this has happened naturally where just in the rhythm of conversation, we've come up with a would you rather.

You know, would you rather be the giants or the bears? We did that one a couple weeks ago. So we decided to do an entire show of these questions, these would you rather situations, these would you rather scenarios. We got some teams, we got some players, we got a lot of stuff to dig into. And, Charles, I want to start with one that inspired this show. It happened when we were looking at the Sunday game that these two teams played, the situation both of these teams are in.

Would you rather be the Lions over the next, let's say, five years or the day? or the Jaguars over the next, let's say, five years. And the timing of this is terrible because the Lions just stomped the Jaguars on Sunday. But why this is an interesting contrast and why we pick these two teams is that the Jags seemingly have a young quarterback that they're going to be able to build around, right? Trevor Lawrence has had a really nice season. He made a lot of progress from Murray was a year ago. The Lions have a lot of pieces in place, a lot of resources to continue garnering more

pieces, but they don't necessarily have a young star caliber quarterback waiting in the wings or maybe even in this draft. So that's why we picked these two teams, but I'm curious about what your answer is. I mean, it's tough, right? It's kind of like, to me, to me, this is kind of like you're building a Madden franchise, right? And do you want to go the route where we don't have the quarterback, but we kind of have, at least offensive wise, we kind of have everything else but the quarterback? Or do you want to go Jacksonville route where I think they have the quarterback? I mean, the game that Trevor played the week before against Baltimore was just absolutely outrageous. So I tend to think that he's still going to maybe not be top of the world's dominant

quarterback. Maybe not, but something close to that still. So you're kind of in a tough spot there. but I think I would still go with the Jaguars because to me the Lions, they're lucky that the Rams have been so bad this year, obviously, because they have the, right now I think it's slated to be like the number three overall pick coming from the Rams to Detroit, which firmly puts you in like, you know, it's the fourth overall pick. Seattle currently has the third overall pick. So the third, fourth, and fifth picks, as it currently stands right now,

None of the teams picking own that pick. The Broncos are giving the third pick to Seattle. The Rams are giving the fourth pick to the Lions, and the Saints are giving the fifth pick to the Eagles. Yeah. So this is a great season for Lions fans, right? Because you get to have the fun of having explosive offense and winning games and also have the promise of potentially getting a franchise quarterback in the draft next year.

I mean, that is the thing that changes the whole. whole picture for you because if you can draft C.J. Stroud or Bryce Young, and in order for that team to take off, like, they don't even have to be as good as, like, what we thought Trevor Lawrence is going to be coming into the NFL. Like, if you can just get someone to keep you out of, like, that quarterback purgatory range, which I, which is like kind of where they are right now, where all the pieces are good, the offensive line is good, the running backs are good, you looked at some promising wide receiver talent, but your quarterback is Jared Gough. And, like, you don't want to get stuck where the 49ers are where you're starting Jimmy Garoppolo and you know

Jimmy Garoppel is good enough to win you some games, but you also know he's probably not good enough to win the game that you want to win. So having that pick from the Rams, now that I talk this out, kind of makes me change my mind. Now I'll go with the lines because I can't really imagine a better situation for a rookie quarterback to step into next year. If they can hold on the Ben Johnson, who's been terrific calling plays this year, shoot, that should be like, one of the premier destinations for a rookie quarterback to go to, which is pretty wild to say about the Detroit Lions. Yeah, I think I probably should have put a caveat on this to say, let's say Stroud and Rung are gone

and they can't get the quarterback with the fourth overall pick. I probably should have told you this in advance. But I think that makes it easier because I tend to agree with you. If they can drop a quarterback into this with the infrastructure that they already have, they're in extremely good shape. We know about the offense. If Ben Johnson stays, which he probably will. You know, there's a chance. an off chance that he does get a head coaching opportunity after what has been a year and a half as the offensive play caller, right? He took over midseason from Anthony Lynn last year. I thought he did a really good job last year when he took that role and then obviously he's done a great job this year.

You have an offensive line that's pretty much ready made. It's going to come back almost completely intact next year. We'll see what they do with Vaitai. They can save some money if they move on from him. And then speaking of money, they've got potentially like $45 to $50 million in cap space if they keep Jared Goff. So let alone if they drop a rookie quarterback into this thing where you're looking at $60,70 million in money to throw around. And that's how you can start rebuilding the defense. Because for the most part,

they haven't spent on outside free agents in the defensive back seven. That's not how they tried to build this thing. They haven't really spent in free agency in any meaningful way at all. Some of the bigger veteran contracts that they have on the books right now or Michael Brockers, which they got through a trade, some guys that they extended in house like O'Quara and Tracy Walker. So this is really the year potentially where they can say, we're going to go get a safety, we're going to go to a corner,

we're going to try to spread some money around, find two or three starters on the market. And then if we drop a quarterback into this thing, like we're ready to roll. So I tend to think it's the Lions, but if they don't get a rookie quarterback and you're staring at another year of golf and you don't necessarily have a pathway to find that guy, that's when it becomes interesting.

because that's when the contrast starts to exist. And there it's a little bit tougher, but I still think I'd go with Detroit because everything else is in such good shape, and the Jags aren't really. The offense will be fine. You have Calvin Ridley getting there next year. The line is most of those pieces are going to come back.

You know, Joanne Taylor is a free agent. The other weapons, Christian Kirk being your number two instead of your number one helps. The defense, though, you're locked into some really bad contracts. Yeah. And that's, but that's what happens, right? When you build through free agency, you have to stare at a world where Lua Khan and Darius Williams and Fatu Kasi are all making $12, $13 million next year.

You're like, okay, I mean, this is what we have. That's the danger of signing people in free agency is not, oh, well, we don't have any players in-house worth paying. It's fine to sign these free agents. But then when you get more information about your team and you want to start building again the next year, you're locked into this version of yourself. And that's the problem with Jacksonville. So even with Trevor, I still think it's the Lions for me.

I would, if we're removing the quarterback equation for the Lions next year, I think I will roll of Jacksonville just because I think Trevor can be, you know, maybe not, like I said, not, maybe not my home's tier, but like a step down from there. And to me, that's worth just having and trying to figure everything else out. But, you know, going back to the defense, I was talking to my buddy John Shipley yesterday, And he said that he revealed to me, I didn't know this, that the Jaguars ranked like number two in spending on defense in the entire NFL. That can't possibly be true. Yes, sir.

But they do. They do. They spend a whole lot of money to be absolutely terrible on defense this year. So if you look at it next year, and this is before they move on from these guys, I assume like Shaq Griffin next year, 17 and a half a million. Ray Sean Jenkins, 10 million. Roy Robertson Harris, 10 million. Darius Williams, 12 and a half million, Foyasade al-Lua Khan, 19 million,

Fatukasi, 12.8 million. And that's when you do that. And when you have to pay all these guys and overpay all these guys in free agency, that's how you very quickly become one of the most expensive defenses in the league without any star-level players on your defense, which is typically a bad combination. Yeah, and just look at the players that they sign.

I used to cover the Jets for the Daily News, So I know Foley, I think he's a good player, but, you know, we're not really at the point where run-stuffing nose tackles. And at this point, you can even question if he's even doing a good job doing that. Making like, you know, $13 million a year. You're talking about off-ball linebackers, safeties that are just kind of like mid-tier starters. These are guys getting a whole lot of money for them. And, you know, I don't think you're allowed to be that surprised with another Trump-Balky masterclass. The quarterback question for the Lions is one of the things I'm most interested in heading into the offseason.

Are they looking at those two first round picks and the top five of the draft? Like let's say Chicago ends up with the second overall pick. Seattle has number three and they want to stick with Gino, which I would totally understand. Are the Lions in a spot where they're like, we're going to get a quarterback? This is the time we are going to get one. We are going to come away from the draft with a quarterback of the future. we understand what our ceiling is with golf, or are they going to walk into this and say,

you know what, we're comfortable rolling with Jared for another year. You know, we're not going to leverage ourselves to make sure that we come out of the top five with a guy because we feel like we're in a good spot. I don't know what the right answer is. I'm just so curious where their heads are at when it comes to it.

Yeah, if I was Detroit, I'd be looking at this, like, we're getting a quarterback, man. I tend to agree with you. Especially with staff for being out for the rest of the year. I find a hard press that the Rams would be able to win more than like one or two games to close a year. So look, if you're going to be your only shot. I mean, this might be your only shot to be picking in the top five and then also have that extra ammunition. If you want to move around a little bit, you have to jump somebody because they're only going up.

This is only getting better. There are circumstances when they start adding more talent to this team. And they're already playing well. So there's a shot that this is their only opportunity to have a top five pick for the next three or four years. they may not have another real chance to go get a guy, even if they don't love Stroud or Levis or however it ends up shaking out. Yeah, and just like the last point that I have on their quarterback search, I think the trades that you brought up earlier, like this is an unusual year for them where they, it doesn't

seem like they have a whole lot of competition for these quarterback prospects. Houston's obviously going to take one. Chicago, they're out. Seattle at three, probably out. And then right now you're of Detroit at 5. Philadelphia is definitely out. So now you're talking about Carolina, Indianapolis, Atlanta, who are both like at the fringe top 10.

It's a pretty, it's shaping up pretty well for them if the Rams keep losing for them to kind of have their pick of whatever quarterback they want. Or at least whichever quarterback Kucson doesn't take. Well, you unfortunately are not taking into account the fact that some team is going to trade a ton of draft picks to the bear. So the number two are overall pick because I'm spending like two hours a day manifesting it. So you are not considering that enough when you're thinking about who could take a quarterback in the top five. All right. Let's get to our next one here. I put this on the list before the Titans fired their general manager.

So we'll have to take that into account, but it doesn't really change the conversation that much, in my opinion. I want to know if you would rather be the Vikings or the Titans in 2023. And the reason I put this on here is that Ryan Tannahill and Kirk Cousins are both scheduled to make exactly the same amount of money against the cap next year. It's $36 million. So this kind of becomes a question of, would you rather build around Ryan Tannahill and the Titans Corps or Kirk Cousins and the Vikings Corps for the exact same price? And both of these teams are really in the same general range when you look at numbers. The Vikings are 16th in total DVOA. The Vikings are 20th, even though they're 10 and 2. So they're not that different in

terms of overall situation in the league. And the quarterbacks are both very expensive and around the same general tier. Which one of these guys is throwing the Justin Jefferson? So it might be as simple as that, honestly. Look, because I was, when you sent me the list, I was trying to, I was trying to figure out basically if the Titans, for me personally, had any reason that I wouldn't take Justin Jefferson, like there's some guys on defense. And I think if you add them up, bring a compelling case.

But I can't personally pass up on like the most productive young receiver that we've ever seen in NFL history. I mean, even just that Bill's game where he has stretches where he can just put the whole team on his back. Like I think that having Kirk Cousins, it probably sucks when you get to playoff times. but having a fully formed Justin Jefferson is worth it, even passing up the rest of the Titans like defensive four. Yeah, you're probably right. And if you're trying to make an argument, like I think the Titans are going to have a little bit more financial flexibility next year.

Like if they move on from Robert Woods, Luan, which seems more and more realistic at this point, and let's say Bud Dupree, they'd have about $20 million in cap space. They'd have a little bit more flexibility than the Vikings do. The Vikings don't actually have that many places. where they can obviously save money. They restructure deals for Adam Thielen for Harrison Smith. So they're kind of tied into a lot of these contracts and kind of this version of the roster.

But if you look at it, I do think the Trump card here is Justin Jefferson, obviously, right? Like, he's the most elite player. He's the best player, the most elite player on either one of these rosters. And then even like a piece like Christian Darrasaw is just not something that the Titans have. The Titans offensive line is just such a question. So what you'd really stack up on the Titans side is you have these young defensive difference makers. Jeffrey Simmons is a superstar. Harold Landry coming back.

Kevin Byrd, Amani Hooker. The general foundation of the Titans defense is young and very good. Byard's 30, but he's the oldest one of this entire group. So that's kind of where it would start. But I think it's hard to argue with Jefferson. I think you're right. Yeah. And I can't get out of my head like the Vikings,

they get in all these close games this year, and then they just call on their football Jesus to kind of pull them out of these moments. I find the whole Justin Jefferson, like, explosion to be kind of interesting because I don't know if anyone who thought of him as like this level of good coming out of LSU. Like, I feel like everyone saw him as a starter,

like a 1B to a 1A coming into the league, and he has just been so unbelievably dominantly dominant. that I can't take the tie-ins here. Yeah. For me, if I'm starting to build the argument along with the pieces on defense, it's just like a faith in Vrable almost where I just think that they're going to be competitive and he's going to get the most out of the personnel. And again, they do have a decent amount of money spent.

I'm looking at it right now. I forgot about if they move on from Zach Cunningham, you know, they could have a decent amount of free agent money. Now with the uncertainty of who the GM is going to be, it's just like another wrench thrown into this conversation. But I just find it fascinating, like, all right, you're looking at this team building challenge of having, I'm not even saying the challenge is a bad thing, but just team building reality of having a $36 million quarterback who's like 34 or 35 years old.

And you know he's the 14th or 15th best quarterback in the league or the 12th best quarterback in the league. Which one of those guys in that exact same area would you rather have and which would you rather build around? I think in a vacuum, it's still, I don't know, was it Tanna Hill or Curric? cousins for you. The Bacoyne, same thing to me. It's the same guy for the most part.

Look, you put the pieces around him. You can get some good offensive football. Kirk has done that in multiple spots. Ryan, he really exploded in Tennessee. Like, look, you can build a productive offense around either quarterback, but only one of them is throwing to the best five receiver in football, you know?

Yeah, you're right. It's probably that simple. And I think the Vikings' offensive of my point is a good one because they've really turned that unit around over the last few years. So I'm really interested to see how they play this once they start to get tired of Kirk because they seem to be one of those teams that's going to be stuck in the middle with no, like, clear answer for what to do. I think it's pretty telling that they were interested in Justin Fields last year if the Bears hadn't traded up to get him.

So, you know, I think that they have all the pieces to be. be good for a long time, but you got to figure out, like, what's going to be the sustained, your sustained option at quarterback. So that was part of this conversation was you'd have to keep both of them. Both of the quarterbacks would have to be on the roster just to make it a little bit easier. But the Vikings, when they gave cousins that like a little mini extension that they did, he has a $15 million roster bonus that's due in March this spring. So they've given themselves like a little bit of flexibility.

he also has a full no trade clause. So if he was going to get traded, they'd have to figure out some sort of situation or landing spot for him. But how the Vikings approach this and what they think is their 2023 plan and then moving forward to quarterback is obviously the big question.

But for our purposes here, it was just easier to say you have to keep both of them. All right. Speaking of Justin Jefferson, right now, Justin Jefferson, I believe is the betting favorite to win offensive player of the year. Michael Parsons is the betting favorite

to win defensive player of the year. Both of them are 23, years old, which is insane. But next five years, you're starting a team. So anything else contextually does not matter. Would you rather have Justin Jefferson and Michael Parsons? Fuck, that's tough. I mean, I'll go with Michael Parsons.

I love the belief that he could be an all pro at like three different positions. Obviously, Edge. I think he could play offball linebacker and even like, I think he's, He could play some, like, overhang, strong safety type shit as well. Because even when you watch him, I think his rookie year, when they were kind of experimenting before they had some injuries up front, like he was playing linebacker. You would see him carry slot receivers. Like, he weighed 60 pounds less than he actually does. So to me, there's nothing that he can't do on a football field.

I feel the same way about Justin Jefferson, though. But I, to me, to me, it would be easier to kind of build. in offense, maybe without having like one stud receiver. But I think having one defense of player that's that good. I mean, we've seen Michael Parsons break through, double teams, triple teams really has been totally unblockable since he got into the NFL. I think that the amount of positions that he can play at a high level, plus just like the most valuable thing he does, but just getting after the passer,

I think he does all that as such a high level. I'll be kind of inclined to take him. Start off at one. hardcore defensive game breaker and then try to scheme the rest on offense. This is really a positional value question, right? Because both of them are at the highest level of what you can do. There's no real parsing where they stand among their peers at their positions. I think you'd start a team, maybe Jamar Chase with Justin Jefferson, but

it's a, would you rather have a number one receiver, like one of the best receivers in the league, if not the best receiver or one of if not the best pass rushers game records on defense in the league? And I think my answer to that question is the receiver. Like, I look at what's happened over the last couple years, and especially if we're starting a team from scratch, right? So if you have a young quarterback that you're putting around that receiver, one of the biggest lessons I've taken from the last two years of NFL football is what having that dude does for the health of your offense and the development of potentially a young quarterback. Like what Tyree Kill is for the Dolphins, what Jaylen, what. what AJ Brown is for the Eagles and Jalen Hertz.

What Jamar Chase has been for Joe Burrow. And then just what Justin Jefferson is when you can build the passing game through that guy. You said like maybe you can get by on offense without that true number one receiver. But I think that if you have a passing game, you can build through one player. And that becomes not only getting him the ball, but if coverage dictates that he's going to get double-teamed or he's going to get clattered all the time, you can go the other way with it. just having somebody that dictates to a defense at all times, I just think right now outside of a quarterback, that's probably where I would start building my team.

And I think Justin Jefferson is currently the best version of that. Yeah, that's interesting. Because it kind of reminds me of like when the Falcons made that trade for Julio back in 2011. And you already have Roddy White on the team. But when you add someone like Julio Jones, like where he was in his prime, I mean, it's a good argument. Like, it literally changes everything. Not only just from a past coverage perspective, but even like it opens things up in the run game for you because it's not like on any given play, the defense cannot account for where

this X factor is on your defense, on your offense, excuse me. So, you know, I think that the Justin Jefferson pick is obviously reasonable. Like there's, there's no really, going wrong here. But I don't know, maybe it's just the former defensive line enemy that I would kill to have a guy like Michael Parsons on my team and then we'll figure the rest out on offense. I think that the way the game is played right now, how quickly offense is getting the ball out, how much you can mitigate the impact of one singular pass rusher. Like that's a consideration for me too. I think that Jefferson, every single time he's on the field and it's a passing play, is undeniably going to affect the play. I think there are ways structurally on offense that that's not true for somebody like

Mark Parsons or like Nick Bosa. And that's, again, why I just lean toward the receiver as part of this conversation. So it's a really tough one, but I think that that's probably where I'd land on it. Speaking of really tough, I love this one. No one's going to have fun during this conversation. Okay. So two guys that I think are probably going to be available this offseason or might be available this offseason as quarterbacks.

And if you're a team like the Jets, you might be having to ask yourself this question. Would you rather have Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo with one slight bit of context? We're going to say Derek Carr is making like $5 million a year more than Jimmy Garapola. Because over the last three or four years, he has been a tiny bit more expensive. Okay. In this scenario, am I the Jets or am I just a team that needs to clear? Well, you can answer it two ways. I'm curious if being the Jets changes your answer.

I think being the Jets does change my answer a little bit. I think I'd be more inclined to go with Jimmy if I was a Jets. Okay. Because obviously he knows the system. That one's almost unfair. Right, it's unfair. And also, like, I don't think it could be underestimated. Like, I wouldn't say it's quite like Legion of Boom territory, but this Jets defense,

they definitely have an edge and an attitude. towards them where like you you could after that Patriots game when Zach Wilson well I think he had like 43 net passing yards for the entire game was just awful and they asked carol Lawson in the locker room like the week out or a couple of days after you know is Zach Wilson your guy and he just yeah that was quarterback trust him we're cool good and you see the rest of these guys on defense liking stuff on Instagram on Twitter talking about it to the media you can't really waste much more time with this group. Like, they're ready to win now.

So, you know, I think any quarterback for the Jets, you can cut down on the time to learn and just get into it and start just looking like a functional offense. I think Jimmy gives him an edge there. But overall, I think Carr is a better player. I'm interested to see, like, overall, if Vegas gets rid of him this offseason just because, like, this season's got so poorly for them. and if he's available and I needed a quarterback like today and we're a team that is ready to make that playoff push, I think I would be definitely down to make a trade for him. I think when you're looking at Carver's Jimmy,

the $5 million more per year is kind of insignificant to me because at that point you're just kind of parsing pennies with a quarterback contracts. I agree. But yeah, I do think Carr's a better player in a vacuum, but if I was a Jets, I'd be going after Jimmy. So the Jets is, I think that one's a little bit easier. Like, let's say you're Washington.

Okay? And you need a quarterback next offseason. And you feel like you've got pieces elsewhere and it's time to maybe make a push at this thing. I think it's Derek Carr. Even for $5 million a year or more, I truly believe this. And this may come back to bite me. I think that Derek Carr is much better than most veteran quarterbacks who just kind of hit the market. He isn't a no trade clause.

There might be a world where the Raiders just have to end up cutting him if they want to move on from him. And Derek Carr, quarterback's as good as Derek Carr, don't just hit free agency in the open market very often. Carson Wentz got traded for two third round picks last offseason. Two, Derek Carr is much better than Carson Wentz. Yeah. So he's just one of those guys that I think if he does get released. And I always try to figure out, all right, why? Why is a team moving on from this guy?

why don't we want him? I think that you ask that question for any player in free agency. And for the Raiders, it's not that hard to figure out. This is a new regime. I think that personality-wise, there might be a little bit of a disconnect between Josh McDaniels and Derek Carr, and they might be in a position to try to go get somebody if they pick high enough in the draft to start over again. They have the 12th overall pick right now.

So I can understand how they got to this point if they just don't like him because he was never their guy. But that leaves you as a team like Washington with a chance. to get a guy that doesn't normally become available. And if you look at the numbers here, I wanted to dig into some of these because I just a little bit more context. They have Jimmy and Derek Carr have almost the exact same EPA per true jobback over the last three seasons.

So this eliminates play action, which I think is also important. But this one is the one I thought was shocking. It's a let me go again. Five, four, three. This one is, I think, the most telling one. So over the last three years, Derek Carr has 161 explosive pass. place. The only two guys with more, explosive is 20 or more yards gained. The only guys with are Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady. Jimmy Garoppolo has 95, so it's about half as many, and you can

try to account for how often the Raiders pass the ball, how infrequently the Niners pass the ball. But if you go one layer deeper than that, okay, explosive pass plays with zero to five yards of yak. So explosive pass plays that do not involve big runs after the. catch. Derek Carr has 66 of them, which is fifth in the NFL behind Tom Brady, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, and Aaron Rogers. Jimmy has 18. He's tied with Mitchell Trubisky, one ahead of Marcus Mariotta. That's four fewer than Philip Rivers who stopped playing football two years ago. So that EPA per true dropback number is the same, but how those explosive plays and how that number comes to be is significantly different.

So that's very important for me. Yeah. I also think that that's also part of like the Derek Carr conundrum, right? Because my whole time watching Derek Carr, from the time he was a rookie till now, I just keep asking myself, bro, why aren't you better? I know. You have everything. like physically he's got everything that you could need to be a starting quarterback and i mean

there there have been games in recent years where when he's on like he he can be as good as any quarterback in the NFL but for some reason like it just doesn't always click for him uh i don't i don't i hate saying this about guys but like he just seems like one of those guys sometimes where the moment can get too big for him and just kind of uh it just kind of peters out a little bit but it's such an important point. Like, even, even like, no matter what you think of Derek Carr, whether you think he's overrated or underrated, like a quarterback of his caliber hitting the open market, it just never happens.

So one, I want to see for the intrigue just of like, how much, how much could a top 10 to 12 quarterback get on the open market if he was just a fully unrestricted for the agent? Because we kind of saw what could happen when a quarterback who, you know, was better and Deshawn Watson gets enough leverage to leave a situation to get courted. It came out to be three first round picks in the biggest contract in NFL history. I don't think that Derek would get that, but I do think that people would be surprised how much he gets paid if he hits the open market. I do think that if we're talking about why Derek Carr is a little bit disappointing in light

of the tools that he has, over the last couple years, he has kind of kicked that checkdown artist label that he had early in his career. So if you look at it, over the last two years, 22% of Derek Carr's passes have gone at least 15 yards in the air. That's sixth in the NFL. Sixth. And you can feel that when you watch those offenses, when you watched them last year with Gruden and then when you're watching him now, even that game they played against the

Chargers last week. Like some of the stuff that he can do off schedule and some of the stuff he can do pushing the ball down the field, I do think that he, like he's an explosive play waiting to happen with the right pieces around. him. So I think if you dropped him into an offense like Washington's, for example, I do think that the ceiling of that team is pretty high. And I think that even if Jimmy's floor is fairly high based on what he's seen from him, how far you can go on offense changes with a guy like Derek Carr compared to Jimmy Garumple. Maybe I'm getting intoxicated by like the big arm

and that skill set, and I shouldn't be because it is a little bit disappointing when you actually see it in practice. But I still think that Carr is one of those guys that with the right pieces around him, you could be a top 10 offense consistently. With Jimmy, you need everything, including the yak and all of those other factors in play. Yeah, if, I tell you what, if I am the Giants and we're sitting there in March, we haven't picked up being a Joe's option, Derek Carr sitting there as a free agent, like, I'm making that call for sure. That's another really interesting one.

I think there's going to be some spots for him to make a big chunk of change if it does actually get to the point where they end up releasing him as office. All right. Next one here. This one is specifically for you. Okay. These teams are both picking in the top 10. They both have eight losses in the NFC South. Next three years, would you rather be the Falcons or the Panthers? The Falcons. Falcons for sure. You think it's for sure. Okay. I don't know who's going to be coaching the Panthers. So that could be a good or bad thing. That could be a good or bad thing. But I will say this. As horrible as I think that Arthur Smith has handled this quarterback position throughout the season, I really, I think in a very egregious way, they're missing the big picture on what needs to happen next for their quarterback room. I do think he's a really good play caller.

For the most part, like, he's put together a pretty solid offense with not a lot of great pieces to work. work with. The Kyle Pitt stuff was abhorrent, and I hope they figured that out next year. But, you know, someone showed me a chart today of, like, running back efficiency. And, you know, the three Atlanta running backs, Caleb Huntley, Cordero Patterson, and Tyler Algellar, like, they're all three among the most effective running backs in the league. And I don't, I don't really look at any of those guys outside of maybe Cordero as having, like, real talent, you know, so I think the connective, the thing that connects those three running backs is they happen to play for the Falcons.

Yes, yes. Precisely. So look, I am still pretty excited about, like, what an Arthur Smith offense can be once they figure out the pieces and I think more importantly, the quarterback and pass run ratio, because it's gotten a little out of hand with the running stuff. I don't get why you're taking a quarter or a tight end and a wide receiver in the top ten and back back drafts and not really throwing the ball. but I just feel like they, where they are right now,

I see an easier path towards like just being somewhat successful on the offensive side of the ball than where the Panthers are. Because where the Panthers are like, man, they have some pieces, but they have been just horrible. Even with Christian McCaffrey, they were just awful. So, look, neither team has their quarterback. You said, you mentioned Marcus Marriota earlier, and it really triggered me.

me itch a little bit, but I still think I'll roll the Panthers over the Falcons as kind of of embarrassing as a past month or so. Falcons football has been. This is changing a little bit if the Falcons keep losing some of these games. Like if the Falcons end up with this eighth overall pick and the Panthers are picking six and both of them potentially could come away from this draft with a quarterback, then I think things change a little bit. Part of the reason I think this is even a conversation is that Carolina might be within range to draft a quarterback. And I also think, going back to the conversation that we had about the Lions, I don't think any team in the top 10 should be more motivated to go get a quarterback in the top

10 that they like than the Panthers are right now. I think a lot of the other teams here at least have a potential solution. Other than Matt Corral, the Panthers don't even have a quarterback under contract for next season. It feels like they have to go get somebody. So they have the urgency to do it. And if they do get a guy and if they hire the right coach, there are a lot of real pieces in place for this Panthers team.

Like a quanto at left tackle, they have two starting tackles that they have to feel pretty good about. The rest of the offensive line, they've done a good job building it this offseason. You have DJ and more there. You have a couple pieces on defense. I think if they get the coach right and they find a quarterback in this draft, things could come together very quickly. For Atlanta, the pathway to finding a quarterback is a little bit murkier, potentially. And I also think that the Falcons have fewer blue chip pieces on defense.

Like, the Falcons with the right quarterback could potentially be really good on offense. But who do you feel really good about on the Falcons defense right now? Somebody who watches them every week. Yeah. Grady Jarrett. I'm so high on AJ Terrell, too, but that's about it, really. That's fair. That's fair. I forgot about Adrian's drop because he's been hurt a little bit this year.

But still, that's two players. It is closer than I thought it would be when I started thinking about it. I think I'd rather be Atlanta just because I do have faith in Arthur Smith. And I think that the unknown of what the offensive ecosystem for Carolina is going to look like, even if you like the pieces, is what would push me toward the Falcons. But it's closer than I thought it was going to be when I started thinking about this. I'll say that. Yeah, Arthur Smith, like, if you're listening to this, please, just have.

look, I think you've been a lot better than people thought you were going to be this year. Certainly better than I thought they were going to be this year. Because I thought they were going to be like one of the worst teams flat out in the entirely. They should be, by the way. They should be. They should be. They still have scored the most points in the NFC South. They've also given up by far the most points in the NFC South outside of New Orleans.

But Arthur, if you listen to this, season's over, buddy. Like, it's done. All right, even if you make the playoffs, let's be real with ourselves here. This team hosting a game against like the Cowboys, that wouldn't even be watchable. So I say let's start Desmond Ritter because I'm of the opinion that it's better to find out what the hell Desmond Ritter is over the final four games of the season. You're about to enter a bye week. So if you want to do it now, this is a perfect time. It's certainly not like Marriota has played well enough to hold on to that job.

So let's start Ritter. It's better to start Ritter and find out that he's absolute trash than to not play him at all and then go into the offseason not knowing shit about him outside of a few preseason throws. Like I think that like when I said that they're missing the big picture, this is what I'm talking about. Like I say this from a point of privilege. I, in like all the years that I have watched the Falcons, there has been two seasons where we didn't have a franchise quarterback. 2007. That's fucking amazing. Yeah, I know.

It's been fun. That's part of the problem, though. It's been fun, but it's been awful at the same time. The 2007, when Vic went to prison, and then this year, with the Marriota show. So I don't like this. I don't want to stick around for this. Please just play Ritter so we can figure out what we need to do in the offseason. I think this quarterback class is interesting.

I think even for the Panthers, too. So, like, if you want to take an upside play on something like Anthony Richardson, that'd be kind of crazy. But if he hits, like, that can be a Josh Allen type guy where you have your more developed guys like Bryce Young and C.J. Strata. I think there's options for teams at the top of the draft. It just kind of depends on where you're pig in. My gut feeling is that we see Desmond Ritter after the buy for the next five, six games, whatever it is. I also think that the Bucks winning that game yesterday is quietly a very good thing. for the Falcons because not having any of your decision making, or at least it shouldn't be,

driven by a desire to make the playoffs because you think you still have a really good shot, I think is a blessing in disguise for Atlanta. I really do. Yeah. The defense is terrible. Like, this is not a playoff caliber team. Like, I feel very, very comfortable saying that, you know, the rules dictate that they're still quote unquote in the hunts, but I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, tend to think that the Bucks winning that game last night kind of put the final nail in the Falcons playoff confidence at least, and they should start Ritter. Just see if he sucks, see if he can play, and then you have more information on what to do in the offseason. All right. Last one here. This one might be an easy one, but again, I was just trying to

pair two teams together than a slightly similar situation. Both of these teams are probably going to move on from their head coaches after the season. I want to know which of these coaching jobs you would rather take. So there are a lot of factors involved. Would you rather be the Broncos head coach next year or the Cardinals head coach next year? I'll go Broncos because I... Even with the Russ thing. I know, but at least I know we're good on one side of the ball, you know?

It's a great argument. I was hoping you would go that way. So it was actually a conversation rather than I'm not touching Russ for any amount of money. No, it's not really the Russell thing. But we have four units here, right? Cardinals' offense, Cardinals defense, Broncos' offense, Broncos defense. There's one good unit there.

Broncos defense. They have to be absolutely furious. Well, we know they're furious based on, I forget who the defensive lineman who got in Russell Wilson's face. Mike Burnell. Mike Purcell. Yes, Mike Purcell. Yeah, Mike Purcell.

Mike Purcell. He's like, what the hell is this? We're holding teams to 13, 16, 17 points a game, and we're still losing all this shit out here. But yeah, I think the Broncos defense, it's legitimately good enough to win a Super Bowl. But the offense has been so bad. I think you just got to hope that Russell, I think hoping Russell to be the guy he was is probably a pipe dream, but you can still hope that he's a lot better than he's been this year.

So I'll take the hope of Russell Wilson potentially improving plus an elite defense, see if I can get the defensive coordinator, stay on my staff with me as I take over and then just pray. I didn't think about that. going to say maybe the defensive play caller is different so you don't get the 2022 Broncos. But if you can convince Evereaux to stay and you can kind of keep that infrastructure in place on that side of the ball, that's a very good argument. That may have me leaning toward the Broncos. I didn't even think about that timeline because the Broncos have, they have almost the exact

same amount of cap space next year. And so before any cuts are made, the Broncos defense is solidified. It's in place. You know what you have on that side of the ball. My argument is just that Kyle Murray is 25 years old. Right, right. Kyle Murray is 25 years old. You have 34-year-old Russell Wilson making everything that he's making.

But I also think that neither of these guys are going to be easy to work with. Like if you're an offensive-minded coach who's coming in and having to reshape the offense around either of these dudes, neither of them seems like a pleasure to be around every single day. And building it around either of these guys doesn't seem that enjoyable. It's tough. So the other side of this is we'll see what happens with the general managers. If Kimes stays in Arizona, I think that would push me toward the Broncos. Because other than the franchise altering and potentially franchise cratering decision to trade all of those picks for Russell Wilson, I think George Payton has done a fine job.

Yeah, he really has. Other than crippling the franchise, he's done a fine job. Look, and I'll say this about the rest of Wilson trade. If you can find me anyone that thought he was going to be this bad, like, I got to give it up to you because I just don't think many people were expecting, like, this poor of play. Like, I mean, this is even worse than when he got back from his injury last season in Seattle. And I think at this point in the season, and not even this point in the season, I'll say this, when a team hands you $250 million. it is very fair for people to expect you to play well right away. Like there doesn't need to be a year or half a year ingratiation period where we're trying to figure out, well, what can Russell do here?

No, no, no, no, no, no. You need to play well today because now, now they're stuck with him for what? Three or four more years. You can theoretically get out of it after like two more years. After 2023, you'd have to eat an insane amount of dead money in one of the other. of those years. But it is feasible after next season if they make him like a June, post-June first cut and they move one of his bonuses.

Like there's a bunch of different shit that they would have to do. Yeah. It's, it's, the Russell situation, it's a ticking time bomb because if, if he, if this is what he is for the next, you know, if this is what he is for another season, then you have to start over basically the whole thing. But if he improves like slightly, but you're still getting below average quarterback play, then I really don't think that any quarterback, I mean, excuse me, any coach can be successful there long term because, I mean, right now, they have the least amount of points scored this season.

Like, they're 20 points behind the Texas. And to me, like, this is almost one of those situations where the results are so goddamn bad that I just believe that they'll kind of correct themselves a little bit in the next year. It's a very good argument. And I tend to agree in that. This is maybe the wrong way to think about it. But my thought is it can't be this bad again. Like he has to be at least a little bit better next year.

And when you combine that with the way the defense is played, how many pieces they have on defense, some of the young players that they have on offense, it's like, all right. The overall roster health and the way the team was built, I feel so much better about it in Denver. So if there's like a little bit of a dead cap bounce with how awful their defense has been, maybe that situation is better than the one in Arizona. But I also think that there's a clearer pathway to above average quarterback play with the Cardinals, even if you're not as enthusiastic about the rest of the roster. So I can understand that argument here.

I'm not picking one of these because I'm not putting myself on record with either one. That's just a recipe for disaster. Yeah. The argument for the Cardinals is easy. Like, if we can get Kyle Murray to look like the guy that we wanted to pay all this money to again, which I think it's very possible. That's more likely than Russ looking like that guy again. And I think that's the argument for Arizona.

Right. And look, if I was an offensive-minded guy and I had a lot of confidence in myself, like, yeah, like, give me Kyler, give me, you know, the last of DeAndre Hopkins prime. And let's see if we can get this thing turned around pretty quickly. But if I'm just trying to, like, win as many games as I can, I think I'll go with the steady defense. but I just looked this up because I was curious. Okay. When I say, let's call it over like the last six or seven years, the worst offense that comes to mind, what is it for you? For me, it was the 2016 Rams.

The 2016 Rams are in the conversation and the one I would go with. There's two more. The 2019 Cardinals. That's bad. And the 2018 bills were also insanely. That was really bad. So the 2019 Cardinals is the one I come back to. Okay.

Well, I, I just for the sake of comparing to the Rams, that 2016 Rams team, they average 14 points a game. The Broncos this year at 13.8. Like, can it really be this bad again? So it can't be because so much of that is driven by how just awful, like unforgivably bad they had been in the red zone. So I'd have to assume that some of the underlying metrics. while they've been bad offensively, they're not as bad playing and play out, driving and drive out

as some of these all-time historically bad offenses. So even if you just take that into account, the red zone efficiency typically isn't that sticky from year to year, let's say they're merely a below-average red zone team next year. That is even a huge improvement. And I think that's the type of stuff that's probably waiting around the horizon, but that still, in my mind, leaves you with a pretty limited season. if you're getting this version of Russ, while the ceiling for the Cardinals is much, much higher. So the floor is going to rise on the Broncos, but I still think that you can take

this version of Kyler Murray and what that gives your team a little bit further. Yeah, I'm the, I'm the coward that's going to take Rust a will suit. It sounds so ridiculous to say, but we've seen the past, what we've seen for the past three months, it sounds crazy to say, but I'm a big PS2 fan, so I think in the coaching will be a real joy. The problem is I'm going to talk myself into it. I'm going to look at the Bronco situation and say, well, you know, if they can just, you know, get a coach who can really put some guardrails on Russ, you know, make him play within the offense. That meme with the Grim Reaper going from door to door to door, like, that's exactly how that happens with Russell Wilson as he just slays offensive coach after offensive

coach because it's, we haven't been able to do it over the last like seven years. So thinking that it was going to happen this time is probably a fool's errand. But I'm sure that thought will cross my mind here in the next six months when we start talking about the 2023 Broncos, which should be fun. All right. All right. Yeah. On that note, Charles McDonald's always good to chat with you, my friend. I appreciate you coming to do something really stupid with me today, and we will do this again

before very long. All right. Time now to welcome our Titans writer from the athletic. Joe Rex Road, Joe, thank you very much for taking the time today. Thanks for having me. A little bit more eventful day than I anticipated. I honestly cannot. imagine. You're covering a team that is 7 and 5, I believe, is on track to kind of walk away from

their, with their division again, has been a perennial playoff team, just gave their general manager a multiple year extension that would keep him under contract through 2027 10 months ago, and they fire him on December 6th. What was your first reaction to this? Well, my first reaction was, my God, Twitter with these accounts that they look even more real and they're all fake now, aren't they? This is, come on. I was actually in the grocery store line. So I'm like, this is, come on. And I'm getting texts and then I'm getting calls.

And it's just, I absolutely am blown away, Robert, absolutely blown away. And obviously, then you think of, okay, why now? First of all, you think of, okay, did something happen? Yes. that's outside of just, you know, football things that they aren't happy about. And I'm not getting back anything along those lines. You know, there was the recent situation with Todd Downing, the offensive coordinator, getting a DUI after the game at Green Bay.

But this appears to be a football decision, appears to be a knee-jerk decision. And obviously, Amy Adam Strunk was in Philadelphia, at Lincoln Financial Field the other day. And she had Eagles fans turning around and like flipping off the box, but also being like, thank you for AJ. And, you know, he destroys her team. And this really bad move, which I thought was a terrible move the moment it happened,

kind of, you know, it kind of manifests itself in front of her in that box. So, I mean, it looks like some kind of reaction to that emotionally. But it's just hard to believe that she would do this now. I just don't understand the reasoning for doing this with this much time left in the season. It's not a very good team. They have gone backward. There are a lot of fair criticism of what John. Robinson has done in recent drafts and off seasons, but they are going to win the division and have a home

playoff game in a few weeks. They gave him an extension in February. They fired him in early December, and they put out a statement saying that they were not happy with the direction of the team building process. So what has changed with the direction of the team building process between February and right now? AJ Brown is clearly the biggest example, but is there anything more to it than that? that because that's not a lot of time. That's one free agency period and one draft where really the defining decision of that draft is to trade AJ Brown, draft Traylon Burks, and otherwise

they've got like reasonable players like Roger McCreary has done well for them. So it just doesn't seem like that much has shifted in the last 10 months other than the AJ Brown decision. Yeah, a couple other things I would add. One, it's become apparent that Caleb Farley is going to be another huge whiff. Sure. That's a good one. And as of February, there was still a lot of hope. He was having a great off season, and he's the

offseason award winner for, you know, for his training. And he looked, I thought, pretty good in camp. And then he just, he can't play. And he's bad. And then he gets hurt again and it's the back again after the Acese. So that, there was hope for that. And there was still hope that Dylan Raiden's

a second round pick who got every opportunity to be the starting right tackle in camp would also work out. So now those two, picks basically cast that second draft as a complete disaster as well, right? So you have two backs. And then that comes down to the heels of Isaiah Wilson in 2020. So for two straight years, you have three top 55 picks that you're going to get almost nothing out of. And if you want to add to that, they gave Bud DePree a lot of money. And Bud DePree, a big hope this season. Okay, now he's had a real off season. He's

passed the ACL rehab. Now he's going to be a difference maker. well, especially Harold Landry, here's his ACL, he's got to be. And he has not been very good, and he has not been very healthy. So there are some other moves that look bad. I mean, they're mounting on him. But the thing is, Robert, you mentioned Roger McCreary. I mean, you look at this draft. I think there is some promise in this draft. And this is the first non-COVID affected draft since the 2019 draft by John Robinson, which was an amazing draft. Yes. So you could, you know, you could spin it his way easily and say, look, Other teams did better in COVID, and there's no excuse for failing the way they did.

But they're out of it now. And the body of work, John Robinson, taking over a 5-27 team and when he's done, I'd say it's awfully impressive overall. When you come, everyone's going to have draft misses. That's the nature of the job. The one I always come back to is John Schneider had historically great drafts early in his tenure with the Seahawks. You look at 2010, you look at 2012. it created a dynasty. For five years, the Seahawks couldn't draft any players.

They were the worst drafting team in the league, arguably, and then he comes back with this class, and now we're talking about how great the Seahawks are drafting again. Everybody is going to have a mixed bag. The 2019 compared with the 2021 draft for the Titans is a perfect example. The 2019 draft for Tennessee. Jeffrey Simmons in the first round, AJ Brown in the second round,

Nate Davis in the third round, Amani Hooker in the fourth round, and David Long in the six round. That's wild. It's hard to do better than that. So obviously there have been recent draft misses, but when you offset those with the draft hits, John Robinson isn't really a better or worse drafter

than most of the general managers around the league. There have been some missteps in free agency, but a lot of GMs have those. I think for the most part, if you stacked his resume up with most guys that do this job, it's not that different, and they're winning a lot of games. So I have two things that I'm curious about. The A.J. Brown move, my assumption, and what I kind of heard and just assumed in the conventional wisdom around it, is that they didn't want to pay him.

And that part of the reason they didn't want to pay him is there might be a Jeffrey Simmons contract looming. There's only so much money to go around. So do you think that that decision to trade A.J. Brown was driven financially in part by ownership? Or do you think that was driven mostly by John Robinson? Because if he's getting canned because of it and ownership signed off on it, that's, that's, seems like there's a little bit of a disconnect there. I believe it was driven by Robinson and I believe that they wanted to pay him to a point and that they were very close to having that figured out and that John Robinson got, I would say, very upset slash impatient with the way negotiations were going. Agent, but also some of what A.J. Brown was doing on social media and things like that

and was worried just, you know, was worried about how this would work out long term. To me, like it was just, I mean, obviously that's your chance to get value out of it and he made the move. To me, it was a panic move by him. So I don't believe that it's ownership saying, you know, we don't want to pay a Jim Brown.

I do not believe that. That's a big deal then. Because that leaves what happened on Sunday, I can understand that being the final nail in the coffin then. If they thought it was a knee jerk reaction, if they thought it was a panic move, and even the value they got for them, when you consider what some of these other receivers around the league

were netting in trades, and the kind of player that I thought AJ Brown was before this trade happened, I can understand being a little upset about how that all shook out. So that makes total sense to me. The other one that I'm curious about, they've been successful, okay? This team wins a lot of games. They've been the best team in the AFC South consistently over the last few years.

Do you think that there's a little bit of a perception with ownership that the reason they win these games is because of the coaching staff and that some of the shortcomings are driven by the personnel decisions that they've made. Because if you separate it like that, again, I can understand landing on this sort of decision, even if it's a little bit shocking. Yes, I think you hit it exactly. And the biggest question I've been asked, I think everyone, but my aunt Mary has texted me this question today.

Did Mike Vrable win a power struggle here? And first of all, as I tell people, I don't think Mike Vrabel did anything to actively undercut John Robinson, but I think that what you just said there, Robert, is exactly right. The perception, well, the perception in the league, I think is the perception internally, too. Mike Vrable has kind of saved John Robinson's butt recently with getting more out of less. Now, you still have to give the personnel staff credit for finding some of the guys on practice squads. They've found that they've been able to plug in. And all of a sudden, you start four or five games,

and you're pretty good out there. Like, they still are finding those guys. But yes, Vrable gets a ton of credit internally for that. And I believe that Vrable will have more power as a result of this. And look, I'll say this too. I mean, I wrote a column last week, a little bit of a hot take, but it wasn't just completely out of, you know, pixie dust, that Ohio State should be throwing everything it can whenever there's a coaching opening.

not that they should fire Ryan Day right now, but when that happens, they should do everything they can to get Mike Vrable because I think it is possible to lure Mike Vrable just for that one job to come home and have a Sabin-like run at Ohio State. And before that was ever written, believe me, the Titans are aware of what could potentially be out there

with Ohio State's interest. So I would throw that in there somewhere as well just in terms of ownership mindset. So this whole thing is so interesting. thing because looking back at the spring and how this team really went after it in 2021, all of the moves that they made, even if a lot of them didn't work out, I understood them in the grander plan of how they were trying to win. Like the Julio Jones trade being the best example.

You know, you're looking at the core that you have and saying, you know what? We got to push it in. Like we got to see what we can do here. You come up short and then you're left with this team that it was kind of a hodgepodge of pieces and some of the guys that are core elements of it are getting a little bit older. And consciously this spring, it seemed like they were saying, we're going to take a small step back. And we're going to trade AJ Brown.

This is going to be kind of a soft reset as we figure out what the next stage of this looks like. You take a quarterback in the third round. There were a few different aspects of it. And I just assumed in doing that that ownership and the people in charge understood that as a general mindset. And it just seems like that might not have been the, the case. Like, they weren't clearly, they weren't as on board with that idea of taking a small step back to take two steps forward over the next couple years. Because if they had been,

I don't think this decision gets made. I hear everything you're saying there, but I honestly, I just think that, I mean, it's been very difficult to watch this team this season, Robert. And again, it's no one's fault that Tara Luan tears is ACL. And frankly, it's a good thing John Robinson traded for Dennis Daly before the season started. It would be even worse. But they are so bad. It's amazing. That's hard to believe, but you're probably right. Yeah. I mean, they're so bad up front. They are incapable of doing anything offensively. And so I just think the weekly grind of watching, I think what you say makes sense, but I actually do think they're on board. And I just think this season has changed their mind. And again, I hate to, and I, you know, I hate to consider this an overly, you know, emotional reaction to one day.

But it's obviously it's two days later. so it's hard not to think that it was just like a final straw sort of thing. I just think that this season has changed the way they think about it. And so it's mind-boggling, though, because as you said, I mean, you get Willis. And the idea is, to me, I always thought, of course, he's going to get a chance to, like, draft his attempt at a franchise quarterback at some point to actually have a rebuild. I mean, I thought he totally earned that. And the contract he and Brable both got was suggest that that was.

the expectation. And again, I didn't mention Ryan Tanna. I brought up his name. Going to get Ryan Tanna Hill, I think is one of the better moves any franchise or general manager has made in the last three or four years. I mean, to come out of the Marioada era and find a quarterback capable of making you one of the most three or four efficient offenses in the league for multiple seasons, that just doesn't happen very often.

Fourth on thing. Yeah. And they ran out of runway with that version of the team. and I just thought that they were going to try to figure out what the next version looked like and that runway was a lot shorter than I expected it to be. But the idea that they didn't have to move on from AJ Brown, like this is something they didn't have to do.

They could have kept him, they could have paid him, and they decided not to for whatever reason. If that's really the case, then I can understand ownership sitting there looking at that game and saying, I can't live with this anymore. Sure. And I mean, look, when he got moved, there was the question of he's been banged,

up in every season to some extent and all that. That was the biggest question about paying him is, okay, is this guy going to fall apart? He's had quite a few different injuries, but obviously, by the way, we don't know the answer to that yet. Well, that's right. It's only been 12 games. I mean, in high, this, a year from now, if he does get hurt and the Eagles are paying him all this money, I mean, these sort of huge kind of seismic decisions take more than 10 to 12

games to figure out. And that's why the timing on this is show shocking is that. they decided to pull the plug before any of those longer term moves could crystallize and come into view. And now they're going to be looking for a GM. And someone else texting me today, this is why if you're going to make a deal like this, you make sure that team's not on your schedule the next year. Or you just make sure that ownership understands it. And it's like, listen, this is going to get worse before it's going to get better.

And I hope that's okay. And maybe they said it was in the moment. Maybe they didn't. I think there's really no way for us to know. So right now, Ryan Cowden has been named the interim GM, who is on the Titan staff, obviously. What is your take on that situation? You feel like he's going to get a chance to actually maintain some continuity there?

Does that just not make a lot of sense? And they'd rather hit the reset button because they want a new vision for how to do this thing. Well, I would think that they would hit the reset button. I mean, Ryan Cowden has been a very, you know, very close number two to John Robinson this whole time. He's had his chance at a few other GM jobs in that time. I think he's very well respecting the building. He's well respected as a guy who will battle with John Robinson sometimes on players and not just be a yes man.

But I just have to assume if they're making this move, that they're going a different direction. And again, I'm going to go back to like what is what is Vrabel's, like is Vrabel getting like final say now? Is the next GM who comes in here, have to understand that Vrable gets final say? I don't know. Vrable's very close friend who is absolutely everyone here believes a rising star, John Stryker, Stretch, he talks about him all the time, is a guy who people believe, you know, will be a GM in this league someday. Now he, to me, like,

you have to go through the scouting, I think, you know, to have a shot at that. But is it possible that he has a more prominent role with Vrable having a lot more say in personnel? I, I, don't know. I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's, I think it's worth talking about. I think it's possible that, you know, that Vrable is going to end up just having a lot more weight in the building. All right. Well, we're going to have a lot of time to think about this, a lot of time to talk about this. Joe, thank you very much for helping us pick up the pieces here because it was a shocking day and really appreciate the time. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Charles McDonald's from

Yahoo. Thank you to Joe for his time. Really appreciate you guys listen. If you you have not subscribed to our YouTube channel, you can do that in the link below. There should be one in the description. So click on that, go subscribe. We'll be starting up our Thursday night football recaps again this week. The fact that we're doing it for Rams Raiders is probably a mistake. But it'll be awful, and you guys should come join us to talk about it. Please subscribe to The Athletic.

If you have not, you can go read Joe's write up on the John Robinson decision and follow all of the ensuing news that's going to come. Theathletic.com slash football show is where you can do that. If you have not, please listen to Prospects to Prosks to Pros with Andy Staples and Dane Bruegler. That will be out today, Wednesday afternoon. Tomorrow morning, please check out the football GM with Mike Sando and Randy Bure. I will be back on Thursday afternoon with Nate previewing week 14. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening.

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