The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Who's winning—and losing—the trenches this NFL season?

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Even a casual NFL fan can tell which quarterbacks, running backs and receivers are among the best in the league. It takes a more discerning eye to watch the tape and understand who's winning in the trenches on the offensive side of the ball. Brandon Thron brings just such an eye to this episode of The Athletic Football Show, where he and Robert Mays dive deep on the offensive line to identify which groups are lifting their teams this season.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)5:04 Indianapolis Colts OL at the heart of the team's success17:16 Seattle Seahawks rebuilt OL exceeding expectations22:38 New England Patriots helping to drive this surprisingly good offense33:08 Minnesota Vikings OL crushed by injuries35:32 Tennessee Titans OL the most disappointing in the league40:40 OL coaches on the rise44:03 Baltimore Ravens OL -- same pieces as last year, but much different results49:30 The best OL this season at every spot1:00:07 Pleasant surprises at every spot across the OLHost: Robert MaysWith: Brandon ThornExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Brandon on X: @BrandonThornNFLFind Brandon's work: https://trenchwarfare.substack.com/Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. We're about halfway through the season. And every once in a while, I want to do some stuff on this show that's just going to teach you about something maybe you're not watching day to day as a normal NFL fan, something that if you don't have access to the All-22 and you don't have the time to go back and watch it, even if you do have that access, what are some quieter, impactful areas of the league that are dictating how this season has felt? the offensive line and the quality of these offensive lines is potentially the number one driver of that. So I wanted to have my friend Brandon Thorne from the Trench Warfare Substack on to just talk about exactly that. Which offensive lines have been better than we might have expected coming into the year?

Which offensive lines have been worse than we might have expected coming into the year. We also got into just individual players, you know, guys that have surprised him at each spot along the offensive line. We talked about which offensive line coaches and ecosystems are getting the most out of these players now. and why that might be the case. And you'll notice a theme as we dig into some of this stuff. A lot of the teams that have surprised us this year that are better than their Vegas win-loss total than predictions might have led you to believe.

Those are the ones who's offensive lines have outpaced expectations. A lot of the teams who've maybe been a little bit worse than you might have thought coming into the year, those are the offensive lines that haven't played up to the level that we might have anticipated coming into the season. And so I think these groups go a long way in determining how an NFL season plays out.

and that's exactly what we dug into today. So very excited to dig into this conversation with Brandon. Let's get to it right now. I'm very excited to dig into this conversation today. I enjoyed going back and doing the work and the research for this conversation today, all offensive line talk and watching all the time. Here to help me dig into this, it is my favorite person to talk about this subject with.

From the trench warfare substack, it is my old buddy Brandon Thorne. How you doing, man? I'm doing great, Robert. always happy to get the invite and happy to be here. And yeah, man, just looking forward to this. I mentioned this in the intro. I think there are some shows that we do on the feed and some of the episodes that we dig into that truly are just an effort at like service journalism in a way, right?

Trying to help people understand why the league is unfolding the way that it is. And I think the offensive lines that are better or worse than we might have expected, the offensive line men that are better or worse than we might expected, it often drives which teams are outperforming or. underperforming expectations. And so what I wanted to do today is just spend some time talking about which groups have been better or worse than we thought over the course of the year and how that has shaped the NFL season as we ease toward the halfway point here. So let's just dig right into it. I want to start with just the overall offensive lines in your mind after all of the

studying that you do, all of the watching that you do that have been better than we expected. and let's start with the first team you mentioned to me, and that is the Indianapolis Colts. So coming into the season, obviously we have three starters for the Colts that I was going to say are known quantities. That's not really true because of everything that's happened with Brayden Smith over the last couple years, but obviously Brayden Smith has been a fixture for the Colts for a long time. So you have Bernard Ryman at Left Tackle, just got paid this off season,

a real success story from a player development standpoint. We know what Quentin Nelson is. And then Brayden Smith went healthy and when, you know, when he's right. You know, everything that he went through with the OCD that he was suffering from, and it's been a tough couple years for him, but we know at his best he is a capable player. That still left two pretty big question marks on the interior coming into the season. They lose center Ryan Kelly and Will Fries and Free Agency, both to the Minnesota Vikings. Tanner Bordellini comes in at center. Matt Gonzalez comes in at right guard.

We saw them in stretches last year, but young players and still, I think, to a degree, question marks coming into the year. So as you're trying to kind of categorize and work through why the Colts offensive line has been better than you might expect it this year, does it really just sit with what you have seen from Bordolini and Gonsalvis halfway through the season? Yeah, I think so when you're isolating the offensive line. But I think you have to look at it from kind of a bigger vantage point and just look at the whole offense and everything is working. Everything is clicking. You're getting career year out of Daniel Jones. I think that's a big part of it. and just everybody's playing well.

So it seems like everything they're calling is working. I like the environment that they're operating within as well, just in terms of you look at how often they're running the ball. And then when they do pass it, I think the first in play action percentage, you know, things like that. The running game is very potent, which is a credit to the offensive line to a large degree. But what it also does for their past protection,

they're not in a lot of unfavorable down in distances, things like that. So once you're running game, I think, is kind of setting everything off like it is for them. It makes the passing game easier. And then the scheme that they're doing it in is also making it a little bit easier. So kind of masking, not asking a whole lot from the offensive line and pass protection specifically. And then when you do, they are executing well. So I think you've set the table with that. But, you know, Bordellini and Goncalves are I'm not sure how you pronounced it.

I always say Gonzalez. I don't know if that's right or wrong. That's like, that's what I always say. I truly don't know how to pronounce it, even though I have heard it. Like I shouldn't know at this point. I still can't get it right. But yeah, he's been the biggest surprise to me because Bordolini, I had some questions about, you know, going back to as a prospect. I liked him.

He was almost one of my guys, you know, when I do my top 10 list. And what put me off of that was at the Senior Bowl, one-on-one reps in pass protection. You could see some of the limitations. and I just thought if I'm projecting to the league, you know, maybe not quite as, you know, a good of a fit as you would be as a higher level prospect, you know, with better physical traits and things like that. But a great athlete and does really good things in the run game. And now with everything we just said in terms of what he's being asked to do, he's in the

perfect situation and he's really playing at a very high level. But Gonzales, though, like I was a little lower on him at Pittsburgh. He played tackle. I thought he definitely needed to kick inside to guard. And he's really stepped up. He's been really stout at the point of attack and strong and physical and, you know, really good on jump sets on the play action reps that he's getting to execute.

So some of his concerns being a little stiff, you know, and reactions and, you know, reactionary quickness. I would say he's kind of below average. That's kind of getting mass. So,

yeah. And then the other three that you mentioned are all playing at a very high level. So this is, it's been a surprise because I, I had them coming into the year. I believe they were 14th or 15th in my offensive line rankings. So, you know, kind of middle of the pack because I just wanted to see how, you know, the center and right guard were going to look.

But everything that we've said and what they're being asked to do and it's just way better than I expected. And they're one of the five best units in the league right now and kind of a driver of their success too. Let's tick those guys individually. Like watching Bordellini, you've, I have posted a couple of clips this week, just some of the work that he's doing in space. And that's what really jumps out to me. And his kind of lateral quickness and recovery ability in space is remarkable.

And some of that stuff manifests on screens or like when he's really out in a ton of space, like on the second level, on screen passes, et cetera. But when he's moving laterally, the ability to kind of the quickness in that space and the recover, the ability to recover, you see it on like kind of crazy angle reach blocks as well. Like, it's not just in space. And so even if he's a little bit undersized, like his ability to find guys, but also maintain contact with guys and recover is absolutely crazy. And you see that all the time when you're watching him.

And so some of the plays he can make in the run game because of that ground he can cover is really remarkable, even for an undersized player. And I think they've weaponized that in a really effective way. Oh, yeah. I mean, the pin pulls, just, you know, regular outside zone or inside zone, just climb into the second level off of combos, you know, singles A blocks, things like that are really good. His ability to intersect, you know, linebackers on those climbs is outstanding. And then some of the screen stuff that we've seen has been awesome as well. So, yeah, just a really fun scheme, you know, getting guys out on the move like they do. I mean, Quentin Nelson, one of the best polers in the league. And that's kind of, you know, year in, year out, so we're just seeing more of the same there. But, yeah, Bordellini, man, I mean, you know, that's what he does. He's one of the best, you know, lateral mover kind of athletes that we've seen both on paper and on film now that we're seeing it.

It's actually playing out because he tested, I think he had maybe the best shuttle or three cone of all time for a center. So, you know, we're kind of seeing that. And, yeah, he's just, he's a really good run blocker. And he has, I'd say, elite athletic ability as well. Do you think Quentin Nelson is playing better this year than he has played over the last couple years? He's obviously been an elite player for a long time. It just seems like it's even at a higher gear so far through the first half of the season that it had been over the last couple seasons.

Maybe I'm just watching the Colts more. And maybe that's why I'm noticing it more. But it really does feel like he's playing some of the best football he's ever played. I think pass protection is pretty similar to what it's always been. I think the run game stuff, he's just, he has more of an opportunity to showcase it this year than he has in a few years since Taylor had that last. big year that he had, you know, several years ago. So I think it's just more impact blocks that are leading to bigger runs. And it's just kind of accentuating what he does a little bit more.

But it's still Quentin Nelson, you know, and pretty much every respect. I think it's just, yeah, I think the rate of impact blocks is risen because of how potent their running game is. I think that makes a lot of sense. So you talked about this at the top. And I think it's important to dig into this just as a big picture thought. as we talk about a couple of these other offensive lines because there's a through line with a lot of these offensive lines.

The ecosystem that you're putting these guys in is hugely important in whether they succeed or fail or they play below or above expectations. So the three offenses in the NFL this year that have had the highest percentage of their dropbacks against base defense in the NFL are the Indianapolis cults, the Seattle Seahawks, and the New England Patriots. I think those are the three offenses

that you could probably say, compared to preseason expectations, have outpaced those expectations the most this year. Those are three of the four offensive lines that you had as outperforming expectations this year. So I'm just curious how you try to extricate that. Like how much of this is what the coaching staff is doing to set these eyes up to succeed? And how much of this is the play of the individual offensive linemen themselves? And is it ever really possible to separate those two things? I think the biggest opportunity to separate those two things,

things is when you find the one-on-one reps, you can find those in the run game as well. If it's kind of like an angle drive base block sort of situation, you know, you can see that in zone or gap scheme, any kind of scheme when they're asked to, you know, cover up a guy or kick out a guy or create displacement on a guy, specifically down lineman. You know, I think those opportunities you could really see what an individual guy is capable of. And then you adjust based on level of competition. And then that could carry more weight and then you do the same for past protection you know true drop back past situations you know third down high leverage situations those sorts of things and then of course adjust for level of

competition and you just try to isolate those reps but i think you know so i always i'm on the hunt for those reps all the time because i feel like that's really the difference maker in guys you know in the trenches however it is kind of a double-edged sword for me when i'm watching film because the less of those that i can find the better you know and terms of, you know, not for me and my enjoyment watching it, but just for putting myself in the offensive lineman's shoes, the less of those opportunities you have specifically in past pro, the better. So you're just living a better life, you know, essentially as an offensive lineman when you're not asked to do those things. And I mean, it's funny. I just go back to this

conversation I had with a line coach at offensive line masterminds a couple years ago. And he said than in their meeting rooms. Typically, one of the themes that he tries to get across is, you know, if you guys buy into what I'm selling here and you, you know, buy into this, then one of my goals is to reduce the amount of dropback passes that you're going to be exposed to. That's kind of what we're trying to do here. And he's a real high level offensive line coach who's been around for a long time, had a lot of success.

And I think that's kind of one of the things that, you know, I'm guessing that a lot of offensive line coaches and play designers and things like that will you know are that's one of their goals you want to reduce those situations you do it by obviously having a potent running game you know utilizing rPO's play action when you do pass um boot legs you know uh chips uh you know various help sort of situations condensed formations is another way you could do that uh so all sorts of window dressing type of things that you could do to reduce those and i think the Seahawks, Patriots, and Colts have done an excellent job at making all that work. So, yeah, we could dig into the individuals on those lines, but I think the scheme and what they're

being asked to do is really the driver of their success, specifically with the Patriots and the Seahawks, probably more so. So you look at the numbers, and we did a video about this earlier in the year, just kind of the structural changes that have happened with the Seahawks offense. So this season, if you look at just pure pass sets with PFF source, if you have a PFF subscription. Every single one of those Seahawks offensive linemen is down near the bottom of the NFL for players that had played at least seven games.

They have like 88 of them total over the seven games that those guys have played. So it's at the bottom of the league, like truly. Last year, all of those guys were at the top of the league, every single one of them. It's hard to go from a more different situation than what the Seahawks were in last year compared to what they are now in this year. And it's multifaceted, right? So it's personnel usage like you mentioned. The Seahawks are using as little love and personnel as any team in the NFL.

It's all 21, 12, 13. It's how they live. And so you're doing a bunch of different things in those scenarios. You're simplifying the calls that you're seeing from a defense and helping yourself avoid pressure looks. You are creating wider edges for defensive ends consistently with multiple tight end sets. You're creating more chips. You're creating more traffic. And with all of the play action that usually comes along with those, you're minimizing the amount of true pass sets that you have.

And so you're making life just so much easier on every single one of these guys. And so with Seattle specifically, when they were making all of the changes that they made to their personnel coming into the season, you draft Grace Abel in the first round, they have a new starting center this year. I said, and they should have done that, right? Like they needed better talent across the board out front than they had last year. But my stance was, even if they had changed out none of the component parts, and all they did was change the structure of the offense that they were running, you were still going to

see dramatically better offensive line play from the Seahawks this year, and they did both of them, and now you have an offensive line that's completely outpacing expectations. I think in your most recent rankings, you had them like 15th among all the offensive lines in the NFL. That's a miracle, considering what the Seahawks offensive line has looked like the last couple of years. Like, it's better than you ever could have hoped for. Yeah, I mean, coming into the year, I don't recall what I had, but they were definitely in the bottom five, you know, that I had them in because I just wasn't sure you know what the scheme was going to look like i had nobody was i mentioned it in there that i was encouraged by it but i just needed to see it first before i was going to go higher than that so um and i

don't think that it's a coincidence that this is a kubiak you know designed offense either you know going back to the shanahan tree i mean you look at the shanahan tree going back to mike shanahan and just all the tentacles across the league that there are i mean almost every one of those systems is one of the more offensive line friendly systems in the league. They have the recipe. They know what they're doing, you know, in terms of getting the most out of their offensive line. And it allows them to skimp here and there.

And of course, your offensive line coaches, you know, that's one of his biggest jobs is allowing you to not have to allocate as much resources to the position so he could develop and things like that. But their scheme, man, I mean, you know, with Kuwiak designing it, you know, Clint Kuwiak, Yeah, I think that's the driver of their success for the most part. And then Sam Darnold as well, like his time to throw super fast this year. He's getting rid of the ball on time. He's dialed in.

I mean, Sam Donald's like dealing back there too. So like that as well, they don't have a lot of third downs, you know, like they're 28th and third downs this year. Like they're just not getting to third down a lot. You know, it's just they're firing on all cylinders, man. It's fun to watch. So I'm going to put you on the spot here. This is a difficult question to answer, but I'm just curious what your thought is. Let's take those three teams specifically, the Colts, the Patriots and the Seahawks.

If you were trying to create like a pie chart of, all right, how much of this is the scheme and how much of this is improvement in the personnel, just the players that are a part of this five, and progress from those individual players, which team do you think has been most driven by the performance of the talent itself compared to what type of lifting the scheme is? doing if you can even do that i'm curious how you would rank those three yeah i'd also put in the quarterback too i don't know how you'd want to put that and maybe with the scheme that scheme that's scheme environment right like to throw that in that bucket because yeah drake may's ability to not drift in the pocket is awesome but uh um i would say this the seahawks and the patriots i would i'd maybe go like

70 30 you know schemes you know 65 35 something like that and then the colts i would go more like 60 40 55-45-45, just because I think their personnel is better than these other two, you know, because of Raymond, Nelson, and Smith, I think those guys are more, you know, kind of higher on the hierarchy, you know, at their position than the other guys have. But, yeah, that's how I would do it. If you're looking at, let's talk about Seattle kind of individually. Obviously, Charles Cross has been a good player. I think he's probably playing some of his best ball as a past protector specifically this year,

as he's gotten a little bit deeper in his career playing in a more. friendly environment. Having Abe Lucas be healthy, right? Like, we've always known he was capable of this. Now the fact that he looks as healthy as he's been probably since his rookie year, right? You see him playing at a really high level. Let's take the interior guys specifically. Is there anybody among that group with Zabel, Jalen Sundell, their center, let's leave, maybe leave Anthony Bradford off to the side. With Zabel and Sundel, are those guys in your mind playing better in those isolated situations than you might have imagined? Or do you think this is a lot of what the offense is asking them to do?

I would say Zabel would be the guy that I would signal out there, you know, more, more so than Sundell. Sundell, I think, is very scheme specific. Like, this is the ideal situation for him, similar to Bordolini, but Bordolini just has a little more to him than Sondell. But yeah, so I think Zabel is a guy, you know, I liked him as a prospect. I thought he had a very high ceiling, you know, especially as over time as he adjusted level of competition coming from North Dakota State. And, you know, his run blocking already, I think is really good. You know, one-on-one pass pro is still trying to figure some stuff out, I think, with set points and positional leverage and things like that.

You think that's more of a position change than anything else? I think so. I think Zabel, like, you know, all things considered at this point, you know, he's going to be a really good player. Like, I think he's a building block, you know, maybe the best, you can argue he's a best guy on the line right now. I think that that's up for debate. But I think, you know, it's, it's, it's.

a worthwhile debate to have. And for him to be a rookie, you know, eight games into his career, this is pretty impressive. So, yeah, I think Zabel's a certified guy, you know, it's just over time, I expect him to just kind of clean stuff up, basically. And then Sundell, I think he could he could kind of survive and not just survive. He's kind of an asset in the run game, you know, specifically, you know, with some of the reach blocks, some of the stuff that he can do on the move. But you don't want him isolated very often, I don't think. So, yeah, Zabel to me is more of the guy. With New England specifically, obviously, it's a similar situation. We have a couple kind of established veterans that we kind of know about on the right side with Unwendo and Morgan

Moses, essentially more of the same from them. Are they about what you expected them to be, considering what the last few years have looked like for those two? Yeah, I think so. I think you're starting to see more of Morgan Moses's age a little bit when he's isolated out there on an island and pass bro. He's always been just kind of a guy who needs to win quickly in past protection and uses length and kind of wall guys off, you know, as they're going up, you know, high side sort of rushes around the corner. But the corner is a little shorter for him nowadays, I think, but it kind of gets masked because Drake May is so good at, and partly for Will Campbell, too, because that's one of his, you know, discrepancies, I guess, of his game is kind of a short corner, guys can kind of get on his edge.

But because of, I think when I watch film, a thing that stands out to me on Drake May is his ability for his back foot to hit and not drift back, you know, outside the pocket deep and step up and out or just straight up out. That right there really forces pass rushers to have to work down the middle of the tackles. And that plays into their wheelhouse, especially Campbell. But both of them really, because I like both of their anchors and their ability to deal with power. So I think when you have a quarterback who doesn't drift and it forces the pass rushers, the edge rushers to go down the same. center of tackles, then you could kind of mitigate some of those short corner issues that you could kind of see. So I think that's been a huge part. It's a really nice compliment to

each other, the quarterback and the tackles here. So I think that's interesting. Let's talk about the left side. Will Campbell is a fascinating player. Like I think I knew that coming in. Like if you watch what he was in college, just the physical profile he's bringing to the table and just the mirrorability is kind of wild. And it was in college and you still see a little bit of that in the NFL. but then you see some of the deficiencies for him physically as well. So when you think about the first half of his rookie season, is he about what you expected to be based on what you thought of him as a prospect? Or has there been gaps based on your expectations that you've kind of seen crop up over the first couple months?

Yeah, really interesting player. So, you know, he was my top rated offensive lineman in the draft, but I thought he would be an ideal guard. So, but he was my favorite guy in the draft. So I thought he could potentially make tackle work. and I think he's made it work better than I expected so far. You know, there are still some of the deficiencies that you see specifically with, you know, guys getting on his edge.

But they provide chip help really well in New England. You know, Hunter Henry's chipped as, as you know, what off this year, you know, against guys, you know, which has been awesome. You know, those chip releases have helped both tackles. And, you know, even I think it's an awesome, Austin Hooper as well. So they're they're chipping, you know, a good amount, you know, which helps. But even when you watch the isolated reps for Campbell, I mean, he does a really good job of getting to his spot, square, good weight distribution, balanced. He's ready to transition

into his anchor pretty quickly. Guys can establish first meaningful contact on him, you know, a little bit more than you want because of I think some of the length and wingspan, you know, you know, kind of deficiencies. But I think his play strength is good. He could certainly anchor well once he actually, he was able to get his hands inside on guys. And then he moves really well, of course, as well. But guys can kind of access his edges a little bit easier than you would want. Is that length-based in your mind? Like, why do you think that happens?

And do you think that's something that can improve over time? I think it can because, you know, there's a circle technique that tackles often use where you're kind of working that outside hand around pass rushers, swipes and chops. So they aren't able to, you know, trap that outside arm. So, you know, you've seen that from him. You see that from pretty much all tackles to some level. So I think if he really dials that in and just continues to fine tune that, it'll limit those situations. But I think it's always going to be, you know, one of those areas of his game that you could capitalize on,

especially if you're a certain kind of rusher who can get his feet stopped. You know, if you're able to set up your moves and get his feet to stop and then go to a cross chop or, you know, stab chop rip or whatever guys are going to use to access those high side sort of rushes you could kind of get on his edge a little bit easier because he's just kind of a narrowly built guy there's just not a lot of width there or mass so you know it's just simple physics I guess you know just you know not a lot of space there to work around um so I think in college you could get away with that right that happened in college as well but his lateral quickness and his ability to recover even if that happened, he would be able to, he would be, he would take the play back over over the course

of the play in college in a way that he can't against more talented players. And that's kind of what I mean when I say he's kind of what I expected him to be in a lot of ways. But as the competition has gotten better, I think some of those deficiencies just become a little bit more amplified. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And when, you know, if he's going to be with Drake May for a long time, you know, I would assume. So with the style of play that Drake May plays with, it kind of reminds me, you know, of DAC when he first came out, you know, what was a 16 or 17 in Dallas. I remember watching DAC early on and I'm just like, man,

this guy never drifts, you know, back foot hits. This robot. He's a quarterback robot. And it was just awesome. I was like, wow, this young guys coming in. It's just like making life easy on the offensive line. And so like that is, you know,

tackle's going to work essentially for Will Campbell, I think, you know, in this environment, this game, this quarterback, I think it's going to work. So it's awesome. Not the only position switch among, rookies on that offensive line. Obviously, Jerry Wilson was a center at Georgia before moving to guard in the NFL, which was surprising to me, right? Like, I just don't think I ever expected that.

Like, when they announced that in the preseason, they're like, yeah, he's going to be the starting left guard. I was like, okay. We assumed he was going to be a center. It's what everyone kind of projected him to be. In your mind, obviously, he's been banged up this year, has been in and out of the lineup. But when he has played, what have your early impressions been of that transition from Jared Wilson specifically. Yeah, a little bit more of a, you know, up and down, you know, kind of roller coaster kind of feel when you're watching him in terms of, you know, he's just not, he looks like a center playing guard to me.

But I do think once he gets latched onto a block and he's able to kind of close space on guys, his ability to sustain and, you know, drive guys off the ball for his, even his size, I think he's explosive and twitchy. and plays with really good natural leverage as well, kind of a shorter guy. So I think that he does some really nice things, you know, in terms of sustaining blocks in the run game.

And pass pro, though, he's still trying to figure out his hands and, you know, landing his hands at the right time, shooting his hands at the right time and not letting guys get inside of him, getting blown up and things like that. Like, it still happens. But, you know, it makes sense to me, though,

that he is playing guard just because I think with Drake May being kind of a little bit younger, you want more of that veteran presence at Center and Garrett Bradbury. And I think that's probably a piece of it. And Wilson's one of your best five. So he's making it work. You know, I don't think it's a liability, but there are some, you know,

you kind of have to work around some of his deficiencies and losses, you know, more clean losses than you would like. But I also think he's countering that with some really nice flashes as well. So, yeah, maybe not a long-term guard. Maybe, maybe not. But, you know, I think pretty promising. All right. We're going to take a quick break.

And then we're going to come back and talk about some of the offensive lines that maybe we're playing a little bit worse than we might have expected this year. Are you with three teams you wanted to dig into here? And I don't think any of these three teams should be a surprise based on preseason expectations. And a couple of them I expected to be much, much better than what we've seen from them so far. Let's start with the team that you had first here. that is the Minnesota Vikings. The Vikings offensive line was remade in large part this offseason. You know, they go out and sign two guys in free agency, two guys, the Colts lost in Ryan Kelly

and Will Fry's to play center and right guard. They draft Johnvin Jackson in the first round. Bring back Christian Dara saw. I missed the first couple games of the season, but now it's back at left tackle before getting banged up. And then Brian O'Neill, who also was hurt at some point this year. So when you think about the Vikings offensive line, maybe not playing up quite to the level of expectation you had heading into the season. How much of that is injury-driven and how much of that is this group when healthy not quite playing as well as you might have expected?

This to me is like 90% injury-driven. Yeah, I mean, because Dar esau, his recovery doesn't seem to be going ideally. You know, I mean, he came out last week, you know, I think because of the knee and, you know, we're week eight. And so that is a little concerning. You know, I missed a couple games over. in the year came back.

Hasn't quite look like himself, but still definitely above average tackle. But you would like to have seen him have more of like a Tristan Worf sort of recovery, even though I know Darysa had, you know, a more lengthy rehab and all that. But so it hasn't gone super great there.

That's a little concerning. Donovan Jackson been, you know, dinged up a little bit as well. Okay, you know, solid, I think fine. What you might have expected Jonathan Jackson to be. It's just like that's probably, if you had a two-word evaluation of Donovan Jackson as a guard at Ohio State, it's like, solid, he'll probably be fine.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So as expected there, I mean, Ryan Kelly getting, you know, heard he has concussion. He's on short-term I-R right now. And, you know, that's, you know, concerning. You know, don't know when he's going to be back at this point. So they've had to just, I think Michael Juergens played center a little bit,

Blake Prendel, maybe guys who don't typically play center. That's been a huge. hindrance on the offense, I think. And then Brown O'Neill now, you know, dealing with his own knee injury. So it's just injury, you know, to me driven more than anything else. And then also, you know, partly quarterback, you know, kind of uncertainty and, you know, Carson Wentz can get a little skittish back there. You know, that doesn't help things. But yeah, I think offensive line wise, it's, you know, just a lot of unfortunate injuries. For Tennessee, that was the second team that you mentioned. I'll I'll say this.

I think I've talked about it multiple different times so far this season. That was a unit that I expected to be like a potential strength for the Titans heading into the year. Like when you look at that group left to right, you can talk yourself into that being a top 10 borderline, top 10 offensive line if things break right for that group. So at left tackle you have Dan Moore and the entire talking point, the entire selling point, I think even if Dan Moore was overpaid in free agency, Dan Moore $20 million a year is not an ideal team building piece.

but if he's your fifth best offensive lineman, you can survive and be fine with Dan Moore as your left tackle. Skoransky at left guard, I thought, really turned a corner in the back half of last season, was playing that the guy he was drafted to be in the top 10, 11, I can't remember exactly where he went in the draft. You get Lloyd Cushenberry back at center. A very good player went healthy. You bring in Kevin Ziler, who was still playing at a really high level in Detroit last year, and then you get J.C. Latham back at his natural position at right tackle. You have Bill Callahan.

Can this be the best offensive line in the AFC South? can it be a driver or why the Titans are maybe a little bit better than we expect? None of that happened. No, the answer is definitive. Not a single element of that came into place or fell into place for the Titans this year. Some of that is injury, right? Like Latham was banged off starting in week one. But I think it goes way beyond that.

I think this is a group where it's not just because a couple guys have been hurt. So if you're trying to figure out maybe where the Titans have been worse than you might have expected them to be heading into this season, where have those issues kind of sat with you? The tackles, you know, I think, so to me, Skoronsky's played very well this year. So I think Skronsky's been in like a bright spot for them for sure. Cushingberry has gotten better as the years gone on. He was coming back from an Achilles, the first four or five games, you know, just took a little while.

Cushenberry's starting to kind of look more like himself. Zyler, I think is fine. The interior's been fine. It's just to me, the biggest surprise is Dan Moore just like, take, a step back and I thought under Bill Callahan he would at least be what he was you know last year in Pittsburgh and just kind of if not anything continue the upward trajectory that he was on so for him to regress that was pretty shocking to me that's the single most surprising element here and then Latham just being hurt I mean he missed five games or whatever and then they go back to what they

were last year you know where right tackle is a complete liability so not being able to develop anything, you know, in terms of depth. Under Bill Callahan over the last couple of years has been very surprising. More taking the step back. Those two elements there, I think, are the main drivers of their struggles. And then, you know, I mean, you look at some of the numbers that I'm looking at just real basic stuff. You know, they're not running the ball, you know, very often or very well. not a lot of play action, high time to throw, you know, a lot of third downs, you know, third and bad situations. So it's like, yeah, nothing went right this year for them.

And the Callahan element, though, is very surprising. I'm 100% with you. And that's kind of the thing that jumped out to me is that this was supposed to be a group where you're not seeing guys regress. You're coming in and they're the best versions of themselves or at least the same versions of themselves that they were at previous stops. And this isn't supposed to be a group where if you go to your backup right tackle, it's a glaring thing like blinking up in lights.

Like there are so many different teams where you look at the offensive line ecosystem and you wouldn't even know a backup is in the game. Like I think the best example of that to me over the last two years is Detroit. Like you think about all the games that the Lions have had to play. And it's not a ton, right? They haven't been super banged up. But there have been a handful of games every single year where, you know, you're Manu's playing because Taylor-Dak.

is banged up or last year, Chris Mahogany had to play a couple games because Graham Glasgow was hurt. And you just don't even notice it. Like it wouldn't even be a talking point about the game because it's not apparent to somebody just watching with the naked eye. And that's what a good offensive line ecosystem does. You're able to kind of paper over that stuff and it's not a glaring issue even as you're digging into your depth a little bit. And so the fact that the Titans have not been that sort of offensive line system over the last couple years when Bill Callahan came aboard. That's just been surprising. And I think it's been one of the main disappointing elements of who this team has been the last two years. Yeah, it's been the, this is the most disappointing

offensive line in the league, I think pretty, pretty easily because it's not injury related too much. I mean, the Latham thing is, you know, mentionable, but it's not the driver here. So yeah, this is this one for me really threw me for a loop, you know, just because Callahan has a 20 plus year track record of usually getting the most out of guys. So, yeah, pretty surprising. I'm going to put you on the spot. I'm just curious about this because I'm just thinking about offensive line coaches in general. Who in your mind, as some of maybe the older offensive line coaches like a Bill Callahan are potentially moving on, this might be the end of his career, who are kind of the guys

on the rise in your mind, like who have created these situations that are now really good spots for offensive linemen to be. I think Frank Freley, who I just alluded to, was absolutely one of them in Detroit. You think about what they've been able to do and the guys they've been able to develop. Tony Sparano Jr. in Indianapolis, I think the Colts like have done an incredible job over the last three or four seasons since Shane Stuyken got there at getting the most out of these guys. Like, Ryman's an incredible success story as a third round pick. Both Bordellini and Gonzalez are third and fourth round picks, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And so those two, I think absolutely have kind of established themselves in the little fraternity of plus offensive line coaches. We obviously know what. the Eagles are doing and continue to do.

Who else is on that list to you? Like the places that you feel, whatever is coming through the door, they are getting the most out of whoever those players are. I mean, I definitely think Zach Streif and Denver. You know, I mean, I think a large part of that is also Sean Payton and sort of, you know, it's kind of hard to differentiate the two there. They're kind of, you know, a pair.

But, I mean, Streif, absolutely, you know, you know, Ben Powers is hurt right now. He's on IR and you wouldn't even. know it. Yeah. I mean, new center this year. They haven't missed the beat. Yeah, well, Wattenberg came back, I think, you know, but still, I mean, like, yeah, the fact that powers is out, Bowles is playing the best football the last two years of his career by far. You know, McElinchie is playing good football again after several years of not doing that. He was pretty good last year, too. So, yeah, I mean, and then minors, you know, all pro. So,

I mean, Streif, I think, is definitely in that conversation. Another guy that I throw out there is Dwayne Ledford for Atlanta, who's been a guy that I've just been a fan of for a while. You know, he really majors in that zone scheme. That's, you know, his bread and butter going back to college. He coached McKay Bechtin and Louisville, you know, and so, but yeah, I mean, since he's been in Atlanta, he's stayed now, you know, through multiple regimes. Now he's a run game coordinator, I think, for the first time.

this year and what they've been able to kind of, you know, piece together with McGarry going down, you know, before the season, Wilkinson, you know, can still get exposed a little bit in pass bro, but I'm excited to talk about him later. I know we're going to hit him in another area, but like that was a name when I saw it on the list of guys that you sent over. I was excited to dig into. So I think Leverts a guy, a good guy to mention. We'll talk about Wilkinson in a second. Yep. Yep. Him, I think Luke Buccas, you know, in Green Bay, you know, but that's again, it's kind of hard to differentiate LaFleur there. You know, Dan Rauscher in Chicago has been, him in New Orleans,

he put together a lot of good offensive lines in New Orleans for a long time. So it's cool to see him get a job again. And so I think he's kind of mentionable here. But yeah, I mean, Bobby Johnson and Washington has done, really turned his career around after that giant year in 22. And, you know, the last couple years with Cliff, him and Cliff have a good thing going. So, but yeah, I think Streif and. and Ledford would be the first two that I would mention.

The center and Denver, I met last year, right? Like the Wanberg comes in last year for Cushenberry, and it's just like they're the best past protecting offensive line in the league. And so the fact that they've been able to do that pretty consistently has been very impressive. All right. So the last team you wanted to mention here in the groups that are maybe playing worse than expected are the Baltimore Ravens. And I'm so glad that you threw this out there because this is a group that brings the same players back that they had last year.

And this was a group last year. season that if you look at a lot of the advanced metrics, like fewest quick pressures of any team in the NFL, despite the fact that the quarterback hangs onto the ball for a long time. Stylistically, that's just who he's going to be. You know, the run game was so dominant last year. And a good portion of that is a combination of Lamar Jackson and Derek Henry and some of the advantageous looks that puts you in. But this was still a good group last season.

They bring back all of the component parts, and they just haven't played at quite the same level. So if you're trying to figure out how that has come to be for the Ravens, like, where does does that start for you? Yeah, I think first Ronnie Stanley, you know, I think he's only missed a game or so, but he's went out multiple games, you know, early on, like after like 15, 20 snaps or so. So like starting to get, he's looked good when he's been on the field, but I'm getting a little concern there. Like, is he going to be holding up, you know, for full games as the year goes on? So that's a little bit of a concern because when no boom comes in, that's a big drop off and left tackle.

And then both their guards, you are very getable in pass protection one-on-one situations, as is Tyler Linderbaum a little bit more than you would like. He's an extremely undersized sort of center. You know, he's sort of comparable to Bordellini in some sense, you know, just in terms of their stature, their size, some of their limitations. And he's not really being afforded, you know, a lot of the same opportunities that Bordellini is, you know, this year in terms of scheme and things like that. Lamar being out, of course,

you know, drags everybody down. So that's been a part of it. So the interior has been very shaky and past pro. Stanley in and out of the lineup a little bit. I think that's kind of the drivers, you know, there for them being a little disappointing. How about in the run game? Like, is there anything that you've seen from the interior

that feels different in the run game that it might have looked like last year? I mean, not necessarily. You know, I just think, you know, Vorhees, I think, struggles to sustain blocks in the run game. You know, when No one comes in. And obviously, that's the difference, right? Like McCary played a very good majority of last year when Invorhees was started the season as

the starter. So that's important to acknowledge at least. Yep, yeah, he was, he was there. But McCarrie last year was awesome. So, yeah, you know, that got him paid in Jacksonville, you know. So, yeah, I mean, that's been a drop off. And then, of course, when no put him in there, that's a drop off. So I think they're doing a lot of the similar sort of stuff from what I've seen, but they're just not able to execute on that left side.

as much. Patrick Bucard hasn't been in the lineup. He just came back. That's been a, you know, that's a huge piece of the running game. And then Lamar is obviously a huge piece of the running game. So, yeah, I just think injury driven, partly for some of those outside components of the running game. And then also that left side, you know, is a little bit concerning in the run game as well. We're going to take one more quick break here. And then we're going to come back and talk about just who the best offensive linemen at each position have been so far this year. So let's take these one at a time. I don't think we have to spend a ton of time on the known quantities at these spots.

Like, the best left tackles in the league so far in your mind this season. You had Laramie Tunsell, Tristan Worf's, Trent Williams, Garrett Bowles, Andrew Thomas. A couple of those are more notable than others, right? Like, we know what Worf's is the question was going to be how well is he going to come back from injury? The answer is he's Tristan Wurfs. Like he just looks like Tristan Wurfs. That's been the answer.

Trent Williams continues to play at a very, very high level at left tackle. Andrew Thomas, again, when he's been healthy coming back from injury, he's one of the best left tackles in the league. All of those, I think, make total sense. Tunsell and Bowles, in my opinion, are kind of the most notable among this group. You talked about Garrett Bowles playing the best football he's ever played later in his career. That extension that they signed him to is also kind of a bargain based on the level play that

they're seeing him from him right now. I think that's worth mentioning. Tunsell is the one that I'm curious about. because this is a guy who the Texans were, you know, felt pretty good about shipping him out the door heading into the season. And I think they have felt the impact of that. I know you've mentioned this a couple different times over the first half of the year that you think tonsill arguably has been the best left tackle in football this year.

And I think even if you are going to make some arguments that it was a cultural decision, there were some non-football reasons that they traded him. you don't do that for a guy you think has a chance to be maybe the best left tackle in football the following year. I think there's some concerns about the level of play if you're going to make that decision. So in your mind, maybe why has Tonzel looked better this year than he had in some stretches over the last couple of seasons?

Yeah, I mean, well, I think two years ago he was really, really good. Last year, I think there's some weird stuff going on there off the field that, you know, it's hard to pin down. I don't know exactly. but I think last year the main thing was penalties. He was one of the most penalized guys in the league. I mean, it was just kind of bad. You know, he's typically one of the more penalized tackles in the league, his whole career,

if you look at it. But last year, it just got out of hand. He just, I don't remember what he had, but it was a lot. It was double digits, I think, you know, well into it. So that, to me, it was just an undisciplined sort of tuntil. But in terms of his physical traits and, you know, when he is isolated one-on-one on guys, He's like, I didn't see much of a drop off there at all.

He was still tonsill, you know, in those got-a-havit kind of moments. So now it's just he's a more disciplined version of himself, I think. And then he's also operating in a system now where the run game is fun. You know, he's being asked to do a bunch of cool stuff in the run game, you know, with a lot of the stuff they do with pinning guys, pulling guys, and, you know, moving guys, you know, crack tosses and all this kind of cool stuff. So he's featured there. But he could still lock down.

on the blind side, you know, and he could do that at a level that's top five in the league of left tackle. So it's just more of the same from Tunsell. He's just kind of reeled in his game a little bit, dialed it in a little bit. So I think the change of scenery has really helped him and he's in a good environment as well. So yeah, to me, Tunsell's definitely top three, top four, you know, left tackle this year again. Let's get to left guard. Again, a lot of usual suspects here. You had Quentin Nelson, Tyler Smith, Joe Tunney. I mean, those are probably the best left guard. in the league for the last three years, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think so.

At center, Creed Humphrey was your number one. Again, was the best center in football last year, probably him and Frank Rag now. The other two guys, I think, worth mentioning. You had Aaron Brewer as the guy you wanted to mention as the second, like one of the best centers in football so far this year of the Miami Dolphins. Again, unique player ability to kind of maximize his skill set in that scheme and just the way that they deploy him. why did you want to talk about Aaron Brewer here?

He has a case to be the best center in the league this year, I think. He's certainly one of the three, but I'm most excited to talk about him. He's, you know, this sort of story is one of my favorites, you know, time in, time again. He's kind of like the Garrett Bowles thing. You know, he first comes into the league. Everybody's on, I mean, not playing well. You know, Bowles was one of the most penalized guys in the league and everyone thought he was done. And then Mike Muncheck comes into Denver, saves his career.

Well, Aaron Brewer, you know, in Tennessee had to play, you know, guard a little bit, center. He's a 275 pounds coming into the NFL from a small school, you know, eventually gained a little bit of weight. Now I think he's around 300, you know, firmly. But now he's in a system, though, in Miami to where he's weaponized, you know, in terms of his athletic ability. He's explosive and powerful. Kind of has little shades of Jason Kelsey when he gets out there on the move. It's pretty awesome to watch. He's, you know, if people like watching board I mean, you know, Brewer does a lot of the same stuff, if not at a higher rate. So that's really what, you know, he's in a great situation.

He's developed over time. And now he's, you know, and then it also helps that too is, you know, how quickly he gets rid of the ball and everything. So he doesn't necessarily have to hold his anchor, you know, as long as some other centers do. But he also has gotten better at that as well. So it's just been a really cool story and he's in the perfect situation. and everything he does well is on the table every week,

and it's fun to watch. Speaking of slightly undersized centers, the third guy that you wanted to throw in here is Drew Dalman, who had a couple rough moments early in the season for the Bears. It wasn't the strongest start. I think he's really settled in. And last week, a step back for this group as a whole, especially in the run game.

But if you look at what they had done against Washington and against the Saints and just how much better their run game looked and all the perimeter runs that they were trotting out in those two games. He's a main driver of that. So when you think about what Drew Adalman has been for the Bears this year and what you had seen from him in Atlanta, is this what kind of level you expected him to play at or has he been better than you thought he was going to be changing spots and changing scenery?

I think this is probably about where I expected, you know, I just, I think part of this is also driven by just center play overall is maybe lagging a little bit, you know. Yeah, it's a transitionary year for sure. Yeah, it is. at other positions as well, like right guard, especially not having Zach Martin, you know,

anymore and Shaq Mason disappeared. Yeah, just the interior period. Yeah, I mean, just a lot of turnover. So, but yeah, Domain is still, I think, especially the last few weeks,

you know, just, just solid at everything. He's in the right spot at the right time, you know, kind of captaining the ship well. You know, he's very precise on combo blocks

and his timing on his releases and overtakes is really good. And just spatially, very aware, just really good with leverage. Just a really fun guy to watch if you like watching centers. That is, you know, he's just does little things well. Not the most physically imposing guy or anything like that. But yeah, just kind of right spot, right time guy, consistent.

So he's been fun to watch. And yeah, I'm excited to watch the, you know, the Bears offensive line more as I think it's like, what is it, week 10 on or week 11 on? That's when things get real for this offensive line. And I really want to see because of the defensive line schedule. is going to go to another level. So, yeah, I think we'll know more about some of these guys then. At right guard, again, you know, the guys that you had is the best in the league or the guys

who have been the best in the league for the most part over the last couple years. I believe right now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Trey Smith, Quinn Miners, Chris Lindstrom, Trey and Quinn Miners are the two highest paid right guards in the NFL, I think, coming into this season. And so those guys have continued to play at a high level. The guy that I think might surprise some people here that you wanted to mention was Kevin Dotson from the ramps, who's been one of the best right guards in the league. What about Kevin Dotson's play this year has stood out to you?

I mean, Kevin Dotson, just look at Kevin Dotson. I mean, how he looks is how he plays. I mean, he is a brick wall in pass protection. There's a very clear reason why he's getting paid. You know, his anchor is stout. He moves guys. He uproots guys by himself in the run game routinely. just covers up his target in the run game.

You know, and he has a little bit more patience and tact, you know, than you would expect as well. And that's kind of developed in pass protection, you know, just going one-on-one against Jalen Carter and, you know, even going back to last year and just, I mean, Kevin Dotson, you know, I just think, you know, in terms of holding ground and taking ground from defenders, he's one of the best right guards in the league. and that's just kind of cut and dry what he does to me.

He's a very important presence for the Rams. Looking at the numbers on these contracts, I'm surprised by this. Just like the timing of the miners contract, I guess I thought he was getting paid more than he is. Because Trace Smith and Chris Listernerner. Yeah, for some reason, I thought that it had culminated enough

that he was right in line with some of those other guys. So Tray Smith and Listerner are the two highest paid right guards in the league. Trey Smith is a 23 and a half a year. Chris Listern is a 20 and a half a year. but then Robert Hunt is at 20 and Sam Cosby is at 18 and minors is only at 18 for some reason I thought it was higher than that so multiple contracts off season I think so I think that's that maybe that's why maybe I had the timing mixed up in my head but yeah I mean that's you look at that

that means that the Broncos have two guys that they signed to recent contracts like in the last two off seasons or so and they're already playing above market at both of those spots and so that's a pretty good place to be if you're Denver considering how much money you poured into that position And the last one here, your best right tackles in the NFL so far this season. I mean, stop me if you've heard these names before. You had Lane Johnson and Penae Soule. I mean, it's so clear and obvious that I don't even know who else you could talk about. I mean, I would put Spencer Brown, you know, third or fourth.

But yeah, I mean, Spencer Brown's been really good this year. But Penae Sule in the run game is electric. You know, Lane Johnson just is the best, he's just the best right tackle in the league, in my opinion. So, yeah, not much to say there. I think with those two guys, it's more of the same, honestly. I mean, Sewell had, you know, some struggles against Micah Parsons and pass pro when they played early in the season one-on-one. But, you know, that's, Sewell's a really good pass protector, but he's not quite lane. But the run game stuff, you know, Sewell is, you know, he's elite.

A lot of those names aren't surprising. And so I wanted to dig into some names that have been surprising. So along with the first team, off. offensive line. This is the first, the all surprise offensive line. And let's do the same thing position by position. Just guys that it may be snuck up on you a little bit and played better than you might have expected coming into the year. The left tackle that you had was Kelvin Banks from the Saints. So obviously, Calvin Banks top 10 pick, somebody that was a highly, highly regarded prospect, but rookie tackles, it's a bit of a crapshoot. Like sometimes even guys that develop into really good

players don't hit the ground running. What about Calvin Banks' performance for the Saints this year has maybe been a little bit better than you even might have expected. He's more sturdy in past protection than I was expecting him to be in terms of anchoring against power. It's not perfect, but he generally is a pretty sturdy presence out there. He still has a glaring concern to me that pops up three, four times a game where he has this habit of with his outside. He's a heavy outside hand striker and he'll strike down the middle of pass rushers and get

beat around the corner quickly two, three times a game. It just happened last week as well. So that happens. But he battled Yayi Diabi last week. It was a really fun tape to watch. They went back and forth. So he's just like he's battling guys and just I was expecting more losses than I've seen from him one-on-one and past protection specifically, even though he still has them. So just, you know, I know he's a top 10 pick, but for me I had him as a high second round pick.

So I wasn't, you know, I wasn't as high, you know, as maybe the league was. on him. So that's been a pleasant surprise. I think he could probably stick a tackle. I still think that may be up for debate. But yeah, I think it's a little bit more encouraging than I've been, than I was expecting. There's a lot of nuance to his game for a young player. Like when you watch some of the stuff he's trying to do, like you mentioned that outside strike. Like he does a good job of getting hands on guys and slowing them down. And so even he's not super long. I think he has like 33 and a half inch arms. And so guys. That's the thing. Yeah. He plays like Tyrant Smith, but he's not Tyrant Smith. He doesn't have the hands, right? And so it's interesting because like when he he's, he uses that punch effectively to kind of slow guys down initially, but then they can get into his chest, but he's big enough to anchor in those moments. And so it allows him to kind of survive even with a little bit of a lack of length. The two things that jump out to me going back and watching him, because when you threw him on there, I was like, oh, do go do some Kelvin Banks study. You mentioned that Will Campbell is a very narrow player. Calvin Banks is the opposite of that. Like he is such. He is

a wide player that I think that there are some benefits that come along with that. And the other thing that really jumped out to me, Bear's game specifically, because they were throwing a lot at them in terms of sims, things like that, he plays with very good awareness for a young player. And so when you combine some of the nuance that he plays with and the fact that he's really, he has a very good sense and awareness for like when a stunt is coming back his way, he plays with really good help with his right guard, or his left guard, just there are elements of his game that are a little bit more refined and mature than you might expect for a guy in his rookie year

and somebody that people thought might have to move inside to guard in the NFL. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the kind of the width of his frame because it just ties back to him and Campbell and you look at their wingspans. I mean, Campbell's like, what's his wingspan, one percentile or whatever? And Campbell, or excuse me, in Banks is 90th percentile. So it's just, you know, two different ends of the spectrum,

even though their arm length is comparable, the wingspan is drastically different. So it's just like you have one guy on the high end of it, one guy on the low end. And I think that that actually, it does matter when it's that, those two extremes. So you could definitely see that.

I think that matters. If he could just limit, just kind of, I would say, add more variance to his strike package, if you will, and pass protection to be a little less predictable, then I think, you know,

he could really turn into a player. So we'll see. At left guard, a couple really interesting names on here. The first one that you wanted to mention was Kingsley Sumatai. And so I'm just curious in your mind, like why he has transitioned and excelled, why he has kind of excelled or thrived in the transition to guard, maybe where he struggled at tackle as a rookie. Yeah, just thinking back to last year, a tackle,

I remember he almost got Mahomes killed against Ray Hendrickson. And some of the issues that he had in that game was he was just opening up against the threat of speed way too soon and too dramatically to where his shoulders and hips were towards the sideline way too quickly and it just allowed him to get beat across his face and be unable to anchor too often. He just looked uncomfortable and stressed when he was on an island in pass protection.

And now that's essentially gone, you know, for the most part, especially with the way Kansas City plays and what they ask their guards to do. They really like jump-setting their guards and playing aggressive and allowing them to get their hands on guys quickly. And that's really just kind of played into his wheelhouse and has allowed him to dictate terms to pass rushers a lot more. He still has some breakdowns here and there.

But I just posted a clip the Travis Kelsey touchdown last week. His rep, he was one-on-one against a two-eye-two technique. I think it was Devon Kinlaw, who was just trying to work right down the middle. And Suuimatea was just rock solid. And it was a really nice block. It was a key block. So, like, he's just a sturdy presence, you know, at guard now. And if he can continue to clean up some of the things that he's doing in past protection,

I just think they, you know, kind of save that, you know, that one there, you know, as a high round pick, you know, kicking him inside and then getting Simmons. I mean, I thought that that was a nice job of recoup kind of, you know, that draft allocation that they had on him. Another really surprising name that you had here is a surprising left guard is Chris Paul from Washington. And that was one where I was, Brandon Coleman, the tools for Brandon Coleman are enticing, right? I mean, Brandon Coleman is a big, powerful, explosive player. And so then moving Brandon Coleman to guard this year, I was excited to see how that went. And then we get three or four weeks into the season. And Brandon Coleman is a healthy scratch against the Raiders.

And they move Chris Paul in at left guard. And now Chris Paul's playing like really good ball at left guard. And I think he's in his fourth season. And so the fact that they, you know, is somebody, that played a little bit in stretches, but obviously was not part of their initial plans in Washington to start the year. What about Chris Paul's play at Left Guard has been a little bit surprising to you so far? I mean, I remember watching Chris Paul in college.

I think it was Tulsa. And, you know, I just, I just, he played tackle. And I just thought, man, you know, he has, he's going to have a long way to go just in terms of his technique and things like that. Just, you know, a big physical guy, but I didn't think he moved super well and all that. And now here we are four years later. and, you know, gets, you know, Coleman gets bench and he's in the lineup. And he's really solidified the line since he's been in there. He's a big physical guard who plays aggressive, but he knows how to kind of balance that out.

But when he gets his hands on guys, I mean, he ends, he ends reps quickly. And he's a real force in the run game as well in terms of creating a lot of movement. Him and Tunsell have been awesome on double teams this year. So, you know, to kick Coleman out of the lineup, that and now I think that position is firmly his. Coleman got to play left tackle last week and Stunzel went out with the hamstring. But yeah, I mean, yeah, Chris Paul is just really, it could have went bad pretty quickly for them with Coleman not working out. His past pro was really shaky those first few weeks. And then to put Paul on the lineup like they did and have it

solidified, I mean, out of nowhere, kind of that that's been maybe the most surprising guy on all this entire list to me. And goes back to what you said about Bobby Johnson earlier. Like it just there are some of these teams where you just get to a place where it's like, eh, we'll figure it out, right? Like, we may have to move some things around, but we will get to a place that you feel good about at some point over the course of the season. And the fact that Washington has kind of so quickly become one of those spots,

I mean, that, if you extend this to like a two-year outlook, has been one of the more surprising impressive success stories with offensive line play in the league period over the last two years. Oh, yeah, absolutely, because, you know, we know what we thought of Cliff Kingsbury coming in to Washington and having question marks there with how he's going to design things. And then Bobby Johnson coming off of the Giants situation. And yeah, just 180.

So, yeah, their run game is awesome. And yeah, it's been fun. The last guy left guard you wanted to mention was Dylan Fairchild from the Bengals. Obviously, it comes in as a third round pick, somebody that looked really good in the preseason. You know, somebody whose tape at Georgia was really fun to watch. I mean, that entire group at Georgia was fun to watch last year. But I loved watching Dylan Fairchild.

in college. So what about his play as a rookie has impressed you? He's just looked a little bit further along than I was expecting because I, you know, I liked Ratledge a little bit more than him as prospects just because I thought he was a little bit more polished. But Fairchild,

I've just been impressed with, you know, just his positioning and pass pro and, you know, his spacing on a lot of stuff has been good and just overtaking stunts and twists and being into the rights about at the right time. And, you know, again, it's not perfect.

He had that safety he gave up against Detroit. That was, you know, filthy move by Derek Barnes, you know, coming from depth and faking him out. But like, and then he's just coming off a knee. But like, and then another thing is, um, the thing that I did expect to shine through eventually is one on one, he could just be a dude, you know, sometimes. Some of the reps he had against John Allen, uh, against the Vikings were awesome. Zach Allen in Denver, um, you know, sustaining blocks.

I mean, just going at these guys one on one and just being very firm and kind of commanding against some of those guys. That's just stuff you love to see even if he does have some breakdowns here and there. So I just think, you know, I'm pretty encouraged by what I've seen from Fairchild. The other guys you had as your all-surprise team

on the interior, Borlini and Gonzales, who we've broken down so far already. The other center that you had, and I'm so glad the two guys that when you put them on here, I had to smile because to me, they've been two of the most, Chris Paul is another woman to throw in there, but you had Cade Mays from the Panthers

and you had Elijah Wilkinson at right tackle. And with seeing both of those, I was like, God, I'm so glad to see those because both of those guys, when you go back and you watch the Panthers and Falcons offenses specifically, Wilkinson is the third right tackle for the Falcons. Cade Mays is the backup center for the Panthers. And when I was watching that stretch where Austin Corbett was hurt in Carolina, Cade Mays was incredible in the run game for like multiple straight weeks.

like the game he had against, I think it was the Cowboys in week six, while going back and watching that game, I was like, who is this dude? Like the work that he's doing in the run game, some of the reach blocks, some of the combos with like him and Brady Christensen. So that's truly like one of them were surprising things about the NFL this year is like turning on the Panthers tape with the backup center and seeing how well that guy was playing. Yeah, I watched Mays coming out of Tennessee and he was just like a bar room brawler kind of guy, you know, just hit or miss kind of in pass pro.

And, you know, I liked him for what he was. But, you know, now that he's settled in and he's in, again, you know, I think you have to mention kind of what he's being asked to do. I think Carolina's running the ball more than any team in the league. And that's fits Cade Maze perfectly. They're a downhill run scheme. They're going at guys, at defenders. A lot of vertical-based double teams.

Cade Maze is a big physical, powerful guy who, you know, know, throws his weight around, throws his hands around, and he could miss, you know, sometimes kind of glaringly, but, you know, when he's dialed in like this and nasty run block

a lot more than pass block and, you know, can play next to, you know, who he's playing next to, you know, Damien Lewis and Christensen, like,

yeah, man, I mean, the run game stuff's been awesome. So he's, he's just been fun to watch. That's, that's all, that's like an offensive lineman's delight there

to watch, to watch him play football right now. And the right tackle you had was Elijah Wilkinson from the Falcons. And I had the exact, same thought going back. And you know, there are moments where he's a third string player, right? He's a guy who's bounced around the league. He's played for a few different teams. Like, he's not somebody. The Bryce off reps. Yeah. I mean, yes. You see the moment. The Bryce of the

Niners game is the exact game that sticks out. But multiple different times going back and watching the Falcons this year. The fact that you didn't know the third string right tackle was playing for so much of the early part of the season. I think it's just, it says a lot about the play from Isaiah Wilkinson and Elijah Wilkinson. And again, exactly what you see. said about Duane Letford, the fact that this is a place where you're usually getting the most out of those guys. Yeah, this is a big time feather in the calf for coach Dwayne Leibford, I think, because when McGarry went down, I was really concerned, you know, because they obviously didn't have proven depth. I had watched Wilkinson going back years back to, I remember watching with the

Broncos and different stuff. Is it Arizona, right? Arizona, yeah. And just like, you know, I think those situations at the time were probably not like this situation in terms of some of the guardrails that are around him and things like that limiting some of those you know exposures and past protection where he can really you know look you know like like an issue um but he's a big powerful guy who takes up a lot of space and if you put some guardrails around around him and pass pro and you put him next to lynchstrom um you know and just what what ledfer has been able to get out of him this year I think has been really impressive. Him and Chris Paul are probably the two big surprises for me,

you know, that stand out even above all these other names this year. So, yeah, just credit to them to, you know, keep the offense, you know, running as it typically looks with him in the lineup. It's been really impressive. We could do this for like two more hours. And there are a few other things that I did want to hit, but we have to get out of here. But I sincerely appreciate. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to do this.

I always love chat with you about this stuff. And again, I think that trying to figure out which of these groups has been better than you might have expected goes a long way in understanding why the league feels the way that it feels in a given year. And I think you specifically talking about like the Colts and the Seahawks and the Patriots like there are things beyond quarterback play that drive these offenses outpacing expectations or being a little bit worse than you might have expected. And it often comes down to which lines are better or worse than you anticipated them. being. And so appreciate you digging into this with us. It's always great to chat with you. Please tell the people where they can check out the fantastic work that you were doing. Yeah, so social media, Brandon Thorne NFL, and then my substack is trenchwarfare.substack.com and then establish the run.com and bleach your report for all college scouting reports.

I've said this a million different times. If you want to know more about this area of the NFL and football specifically, Brandon's work is just an invaluable resource. I mean, just is going to teach you so much about these groups and just the quiet elements of the league that are defining whether or not team succeed or fail. So please go check it out. I have been, I mean, probably like a pre-day-one subscriber, right? I have to be like one of the earliest trench warfare subscribers there are. And so I'm putting my money where my mouth is here. Sincerely encourage you guys to go check it out.

Thanks a lot for the time, buddy. We'll talk to you soon.