The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Why some highly drafted offensive linemen fail, with Mitchell Schwartz and Marshall Newhouse

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

We know that there will be misses in the 2023 NFL Draft. There are misses in every draft. But while many fans can wrap their heads around why a quarterback or cornerback flops, it can be much harder to figure out why a highly drafted offensive linemen doesn't pan out in the league. Mitchell Schwartz and Marshall Newhouse, who spent a combined 20 years in the trenches in the NFL, join Robert Mays to break down why some linemen fail on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mitch on Twitter: @MitchSchwartz71Follow Marshall on Twitter: @MNewhouse73Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. To the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. I think only on this podcast would we do a two-part show about pre-draft offensive line prospects and the different ways that we can talk about them because we're really catering to the biggest audience possible here. We already did the this year's prospects. You have already listened to that earlier today.

We talked about those guys with Dane Bruegler and Brandon Thorne really digging into the 2023 class. So if you haven't gone to listen to that, please do. But beyond those specific guys and what their outcomes or what their prospects look like in the NFL, the other side of this conversation that I wanted to dig into is why guys drafted in the first couple rounds, of which they're going to be plenty in this year's class, don't work out. I think most people that even are big fans of football are going to look at guys drafted 50th overall that didn't end up becoming an offensive line starter and not really understand why. Offensive line play is kind of a black box for a lot of people.

So I wanted to explore some of that. Why are these guys that are drafted relatively high? Why haven't some of them worked out? And what does that kind of negative timeline look like for players with that sort of draft position? To help me do that, I wanted to invite on two long time NFL offensive linemen who have seen the league and seen those guys at those positions from every single angle during a couple decades combined in the NFL. First off, friend of the show, long time contributed to what we do. here. It's Mr. Schwartz. Mitch, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing well. How are you? Doing very well.

Really appreciate you helping us do this. And joining us for the first time, 10-year NFL veteran, long-time NFL offensive tackle. It's Marshall Newhouse. Marshall, thank you very much for doing this, man. I appreciate it. I have to be the guy, and Mitch respects this. I got 11. So you got to give me that year. 11. Okay. I'm sorry. I thought it was only 10. I apologize. 11 is a very. And they're like, all, I got my 10, I'm going to go, but you get that one more. That's a big one. How many did you have, Mitch? Nine.

It's all right. Right on the nose, 20 years combined. I think the few all pros in the Super Bowl win is enough to kind of get you 10. You're a, you're gifted the 10th year. We'll do that. We'll give that one to you. If you could gift me the current market value of the offense alignment, that would be nice to, which I'm sure Marshall is just sees these contracts go up and up.

and, you know, every generation has the bitterness once the salary cap explodes. So I want to talk about, you know, some specific guys over the last decade or so that either you guys watched or you guys are aware of, but also just some of these considerations on a general level, you know, why these guys who have the draft pedigree don't always shake out. So Mitch, I want to start with you. Just on a big picture level, if I asked you the number one contributor that you think leads to guys falling short of expectations. when they come into the league along the offensive line.

What would you say is the main driver of that? It's probably some sort of technical flaw that doesn't get addressed, whether it's through the offensive line coach, through the individual, through the system they're in. It could be as simple as someone not quite understanding how leverage works, and in college they were bigger and stronger, and they could add physical dudes, and they could just get away with being an athlete.

And they get to the NFL, you've got to be a little more skilled, and that thing doesn't just click. You know, sometimes it's timing. It's like punch timing. You just can't quite get it. You're either a split second early or a split second late. And obviously that can do you in. So like there's usually some sort of technical thing that I think it starts with because I would imagine I know we'll talk about the mental side of things too.

But for the most part, guys are confident enough in themselves to have gotten to the NFL. So they believe in themselves. They know that deep down even if they're like me, you know, fear of failure motivator. Like I still knew I was a good player. I was good enough to be drafted, good enough to be starting all that stuff. So usually it's the technical thing goes first and then you start dating yourself and then the vicious cycle starts. Marshall, what would you say? I think the overarching thing that we all acknowledge is the mental health thing, but it's still kind of nebulous.

It's so case by case. But I think from a more tangible side, it's play awareness and like the appropriate exception of like, where am I in relation to everyone else in the field and what my job is and how do I use what mentioned leverage? because there's guys who have short arms who overcome that because they have an awareness of their body. There's guys who overcome lack of height, lack of foot speed or whatever because they're aware of what they are and they understand leverage. Like I wrestled in high school and that gave me a weird sense of like how to overcome if there's a guy who has long arms of me is more athletic to me. And so that to me is from all the, you know, the physical build that God creates that can overcome a lot of that stuff. So talking about the leverage thing specifically, Mitch, like what, what does.

an example of a way that you could use either physical power or physical tools in college that maybe you can't get away within the NFL and guys sometimes struggle to bridge that gap. I mean, the biggest one that sticks out to me is stopping a bull rush. You know, in college, there's a lot of guys who kind of do the headbut and grab, and you don't really need to use that much technique. The guy you're going against, you know, might be second string all of Pac-12, but he's not going to sniff an NFL roster and he's just not quite big enough or strong enough to make it work when you're not using the right technique.

And that's understanding how to be strong. If you line up most of the NFL offense alignment, maybe the side of Trent Williams and Trent Brown, you're not just going to be able to punch a defense alignment and stop him. It's all about figuring out how to get under them and get their momentum going upwards. You know, it's not just a pure, I'm stronger than you. I'm going backwards and you're running into me.

So understanding how to manipulate that leverage and that momentum and that energy is really, the key and you can, you know, move guys in the run game in college again. If you're the guy who's 6-5, 325, you run a 4-9, like you have a ton of force behind you to be that big and that fast and to move that way. And you can get away with it when the guys you're going against aren't either big or strong enough to make that a downside, that lack of technique, that lack of leverage, or they're just not good enough to, you know, kind of jump around you or do whatever it is that, you know, you see a lot of these linemen who are more kind of straight-line athletes and I watch them

on, you know, wide zone, you're the weak side tackle, kind of point of attack. I love watching that block, and, you know, a guy like Mackay Beckton's really good at it, but he also, to me, kind of predetermines like, all right, this is the for work I'm going to take. If it lands and the defensive end plays true technique, like, again, he's 680, 680, 680 coming at you, like, he's going to toss you out the club. But if you're able to do something funky, do like a Von Miller rip move or make an inside move, you know, some of those guys watching them, it's more.

of an all or nothing move and 80% of the time it works well and it looks fantastic. But there's that element of like staying within yourself and understanding how to actually use that leverage properly so you're able to react to any situation. And that's where it gets a little more tough when the guys you're going against are legitimately like the best guys you've ever faced. Marshall, that idea of kind of learning how to sit down and deal with the bull rush and those kind of leverage issues. Is that something where it's about how often you work on it?

Some guys, it doesn't matter how much they work on it. they're never going to get it. Is that more about understanding what you need to work on or about having sort of an innate skill to get there? That's a thing that can be worked on. I mean, that is a, on a base level is a strength thing. And then it's, there's guys who will do, there's, it's hard to simulate that perfectly in practice or off-season or whatever.

But there's guys who, when we get in pads, who do it and there's some tidbit that they're taught or that clicks. After one rep, it's like, okay, that makes sense. I can incorporate that into my game, into my sets, into how I game playing against his pass rusher. And those other guys who are going to get the crown of their helmet under their chin for the rest of their career and they'll never figure it out.

To me, a great example is a guy like Lane Johnson, who, as a freak, you know, his trajectory is unlike anyone else's. No one can pass block the way he pass blocks. But if people watch his sets and they see him accept a bull rush, it looks like he's just catching. And what they don't understand is that, A, Lane is really, fringishly strong. B, he's in position, but C, he is, his levers, his arms are lifting the D.N. After the bull rush, centimeter by centimeter inch by inch, until he has no more momentum.

He's lifting him on an angle upwards to stop the momentum. And Lane pulls it off because he has his other things, but it just clicked for him. He's like, yeah, I can initially get hit, initially get the bullrush, but I'm lifting this guy without him really even realizing it. And he's stopping his momentum. So, yeah, the guy is a foot, two feet, away from Jalen Hertz, but Lane's won the block already. Like, we're three, four, four, five seconds into this play. The block is one. And so a guy like that can do it with a little less effort because he's so naturally gifted, but they're guys who aren't as gifted who still can figure that out. It's just a matter, do you figure it out because you're like, again,

I talked about pro perception. Do you have an idea of where you are in the world, just space and how to use your body? And there's some guys who are the prototypical tackle, guard, and just never figure that part out about understanding. understanding how they move their limbs and how all that stuff works. And it's, I don't think there's a true indicator of someone who's going to get it or not get it, but you can definitely tell the guys who get it. So I want to expand on the Lane Johnson one,

especially because like I was saying, guys can kind of do that in college where you're not Lane Johnson, obviously, but compared to maybe the guys you're going against in college, you are more like Lane Johnson compared to NFL rushers. And so it works because you can kind of absorb that initial split second contact before you land the hands before you start lifting and before you get that true leverage. It worked in college because the guys you were going against weren't, you know, these freak guys,

Miles Garrett or Khalil Mack or Joy Bosa who can bring the power that those guys can. You get to the NFL and this is where that's a technique flaw that you need to work on. And this is where it breaks off into the different buckets of like, is it coaching? Is it the team? Is it you? But you're probably going to stick with, all right, this worked in college. I'm just going to keep working at it. It's not working.

it's not working, but I know it's going to work because it's worked before. Maybe your coach is trying to teach you something different. You know, most coaches the side of Paul Alexander don't love the double under as a true pass blocking technique for offensive tackles. Also, you know, Paul had his 300. Explain the double under very quickly. I have a story about that. Yeah, so the double under is essentially both of your hands going underneath the defender

to then lift him. So if anyone has watched Lane Johnson block as an offensive tackle, that's what Marshall was describing. He kind of takes his pass set. He explodes out of a stance. He gets to the spot. He basically forces you to bulrush him. This is another key on why he's so good.

He basically dictates what the rusher can do by his set. He's taken away, getting around the corner. Is that possible because of like explosiveness where he can get to that spot because he's so athletic? Yeah, it's that. And it's also what Marshall said, the pro preception of knowing where he needs to be on the field. Because there are guys who never quite get that sense and they're always a kick too deep or a kick too shallow and they give up the corner. But Lane knows exactly where that's. spot is that he needs to settle. And this is where, I mean, we're going up on different

tangents, but it's fun. As a vertical setter, a guy who likes to sit deeper, most, I think, coaches who don't understand vertical setting and most players who haven't done it before, they think it's a much more passive pass set that you're not really doing anything in the first second or two. You're just kind of setting back and waiting for them. But you're actively forcing a guy to rush the way you want them to. You're setting deep enough that based on his sense of where the pocket is where the quarterback is, you've probably taken away around the corner because you're too deep. They know if they try to sink a move, they're not going to get to the quarterback around the corner. You've also taken away the inside because you're deep and you're square and there's space and the guy's

not just going to go inside when you're sitting there square with space in front of you. And so all he's left to do is think, ah, crap, I kind of just have to bulrush him. There's nothing else for me to do on this. And whether it's conscious or subconscious, it kind of feels like you get like an 80% bull rush. It's kind of a defeated bulrush that he knows I don't have to bowl this. this guy who's in a perfect position. He's not on his heels. I'm not landing a bull because I saw him with some technique deficiency. So that's what Lane uses his advantage. So getting back to the double under, you know, that's a technique that works for big guys and specific players. And so if a guy in

college is good at it because he's a big dude, he's really strong, he gets to the NFL, his coach is not coaching it. His normal technique is not working. He's now somewhat clashing with his coach, where his coach wants him to, you know, throw his hands traditionally. He starts throwing his hands. He his hands chopped because he's probably going to lean forward because he's not used to throwing his hands traditionally, then he's going to say, ah, his technique doesn't work for me anyway, and you get caught in this vicious cycle of, like, not quite knowing what to do. And that's where making sure that your coach understands what to do and kind of collaborating with him, which again, most young guys, you don't quite collaborate with your coach. You're either a guy who buys into the teachings,

and hopefully they work, or you don't buy in and your coach probably hates you and you're going be off the team in a couple years regardless. So that's one thing that we see a lot that the technical side doesn't match up with what the player wants to do or what he's comfortable with. And then the coach isn't quite able to teach him, you know, that leverage, that ability to block properly and to make a collaborative. So those, I think a big question I would have from that is how do these technical deficiencies kind of arise if they worked in college?

And it seems from that answer, it's twofold. It's either because the competition. is so much better, it's no longer applicable. I can't get away with the same stuff, or because I'm being taught to do something different. Marshall, what do you think is the more common answer to that? Why do these things arise? Is it a coaching thing, or is it a change in competition level thing? I mean, eventually everyone, you know, who sticks around the league adjust to the new speed,

the new strength, the new stuff. To me, it's about fit and fit with O-line, his coach and their scheme and the idea of what they're trying to accomplish. Like, I played for eight different offensive line coaches. And so if you can imagine trying to adjust. You guys can't see that Mitch is shaking his head right now. If you can imagine trying to adjust whatever your natural strengths and abilities are and all the stuff that you've learned and packaged before and trying to, like Mitch says,

acquiesce to the new coach's style to get in his good races so he can trust that you'll play, but also winning the freaking block. Because at the end of the day, that's what we'll get paid to do. And so my story from earlier was I signed my first free agency time. Just a lot of BS happened. I end up signing with Cincinnati for a year. I'm there of Paul Alexander. And he is trying to get me to double under like Andrew Whitworth.

Andrew Whitworth is 6'7. His shoulders are as broad as a house. And he's 3.20. I'm the same weight, but I'm barely 6'4. I'm a quicker guy. I have long arms. I use my quickness more. That's just more of what I do.

And I am trying in the midst of, off-season in camp to find some stupid middle ground between what Paul Alexander wants and what my body naturally can do. And it generally didn't work out very well. I only started three games there, but I came in a lot in games for injuries and stuff like that. I had a few good games, but a couple of really bad ones that I was literally in my head, there's a battle going on. I did not figure it out before the game started what I was really set on doing. And that's because I was young. But also, it's a fit.

So when you're talking about pre-draft guys, so much of it is scheme fit and also fit for what the O-line coach who you have there wants to do because there's come coaches who, yeah, they want you to do it their way. I would even imagine there are coaches, I don't know if you ever had any, Mitch,

who would rather you do it their way and the block not go as well, but you did it their way than just win the block. And it sounds stupid. It sounds absurd, but there are people out there that exists like that.

And so as a player, especially if you didn't have any OGs in the room, any older vets, you didn't have anybody tell you how this was going to be from a political, social aspect of relationship with your coach. You're sitting there like, I don't know what to do. And so practice by practice, you're trying to do what they're asking you to do, but it's at odds with what your body naturally does well. And so there's some people that don't find that balance. They don't find themselves, remake themselves into what wins and what works and what a coach

could live with. So to me, a fit is such a bigger thing than just the different change in play speed because eventually you adjust. Most people who stick around, you just find a way. But you have less control, almost no control over who you get drafted by. So to me, that's the bigger thing. Yeah, and going right off of that, Cincinnati's offense line was really good under Paul for a while. He coaches some funky stuff, but they had massive dudes.

They had Whitworth. They had Andre Smith, the right tackle. All of a sudden, they draft said, who's, you know, 6-5-305, and now he's getting asked to do these techniques that are really meant for guys literally to see it on film. It's just, it's not going to work. And so there's a reason, like, that guy gets drafted to the wrong spot. He gets coaching that works for other guys.

It doesn't work for him. And after a few years, you know, the rap is, oh, he's a bus as a first rounder. And then he floats around from team to team. And then he's probably trying to find himself and also trying to be good with the new coach and trying to figure it out. And that's one that if he gets drafted somewhere else, he's with a coach that can teach him a little bit better. he might have had a longer career.

And I think back to my first couple years, I had a really good offensive line coach and George Warhop in Cleveland. And my first year, you know, I felt like the offense probably protected me a little bit. It was a Brad Childress,

Pat Schumer, West Coast offense with Brandon Whedon as a rookie quarterback. So a lot of 200 Jed, a lot of, you know, 94 gut. The 40-year-old rookie? Doing some quick game and some easier things and some chips and that stuff.

And then my second year, we had Norv Turner. and I remember going into the year we were facing Miami in week one, Cam Wake. I had way too much time to study him. And I remember watching Demar Dotson who played him really well. I watched a couple other guys who played him well. And I'm like, oh, those guys played him well. Like I need to copy their technique because that worked on Cam Wake and they blocked him well.

And these other guys, their techniques didn't work. So, you know, I'm trying to do way too much stuff that first week. I think I gave him three sacks. The next week we play Baltimore. I think you give up two sacks. and then I actually got better the next week. Technically, they credited me with a sack going up against Minnesota. The D-N was at like 11 and a half yards.

I don't think it was my fault. But I give six sacks in three games. And, you know, at this point it's my second year. I'm thinking I'm garbage. They're going to get rid of me. Luckily, I had a coach in Warhop who was just like, Mitch, just forget about everything. Like, we're just going back to the drawing board. We're going to work on your sets.

We're going to work on your punch. And the stuff you coach, it was vertical setting. But the punching was all leverage-based. Like, we did so much with medicine balls, which I love punching medicine balls, because you can tell instantly, getting back to that leverage perspective, if you're punching the ball and it's either going flat back at the guy who's throwing it to you or upwards, that means you're punching with the right leverage. You're punching up.

If you're punching it and the ball is landing at the guy's feet, that means you're punching down and you're probably not in a good position of leverage. So they throw a medicine ball at you and you're punching it directly back at them. Yeah, and there's a feedback that basically if you can punch it back between the guy's chest and face, that's probably a really good strike and it's reinforcing good leverage. You know, we did a lot of pass sets with weighted bags, like 25 to 35 pounds sandbags, which forces your hips to go down. You know, you can't really like be your upper half like toppled forward if you're not holding this incorrectly. You know, that reinforces good leverage.

Hop used to put on these mitts and we'd punch him with the mitts and he'd start sweating through his hat. It was awesome. But like, again, that's ingraining independent hands and ingrained proper leverage because he knew how to hold the mitts correctly. And so I was really lucky that I had a coach that was just like, Mitch, I know you're a really good player. I trust you. We're not going to pull you from the lineup. We're just going to work through this.

And sure enough, we just got back to base techniques, like general leverage stuff, not even stuff that was specific to what I'm comfortable with, but a coach who just understands how to coach anybody. And I started to play a lot better. And I think about my story and I think about a guy like Alex Lutherwood in Oakland, who is a really hard worker. He's got great feet. He's strong.

He has everything you want. I think he had like one bad half of his first game and they moved him to guard or they pulled him out of the game or something. I don't remember the specifics. I might be exaggerating a little bit. But I do remember they started moving him around, taking him out of the lineup early in his first year. And that just like crushes your psyche.

When you're, you know, a guy who's a really good player, you get drafted pretty high, you're supposed to be, you know, this really good player right away, especially coming from Alabama, all the success they've had with draft picks at every position. And your coaches basically tell you. hey, we don't trust you and you're not good enough to play tackle. You need to move to guard because you're not good enough. You know, that's one that gets into the mindset a little bit, the psyche, but I probably wouldn't have recovered if my coaches started doubting me in my first couple years when I was in my darkest moments. And that's a case where, you know, I think the team maybe

didn't have the best plan on how to help him through some struggles that, to me, were just mechanical. Like those were technique things that he works really hard. He wants to get better. He loves, you know, playing football. That's something that should have been able to be fixed. a long time ago. What do you think those mechanical things are with Alex Sutherwood? Because he is, if we're doing this as an exercise, he's probably the first name you'd mention, a guy who was a 17th overall pick

and didn't make it even into his second season with the Raiders. I mean, it's the most extreme example outside of somebody like Isaiah Wilson, which that's all off-field stuff. Yeah, to me it was always the punch timing of the pass set. Like, he takes good sets. He's, you know, maybe you could argue his feet are overactive. You know, I'd love to have that problem where my feet were too quick. that I could be overactive or you know you get a little too deep one time and a little not quite

as deep the other I mean getting back to lane there's a genius and you know lane's the quickest guy out there but he's not necessarily doing the chatter steps that we associate with these like I think that's more of an old school thing like just kind of move your feet really quickly and go in six inch steps I think that can get you a little overactive you know lane talks about learning from jason peters they kind of do pass sets and either one big kick or two big kicks you know it depends on where the quarterback's going to be who the guy they're facing the alignment, all that stuff. But essentially you're either going to take one big kick and then kind of settle

or two big kicks and kind of settle, but you're not just going to like military style, you know, which Lutherwood can get into as well. So if he was able to maybe take one or two aggressive kicks off the line and then slowly start to settle, he could get to a spot a bit better. And it just seemed like the point of contact, like there's just something off. And that's where it gets into being a little bit difficult to figure out, you know, specifically what that thing is. but that's where, again, you get back to using medicine balls.

Like using, there's some, like, punching bags. I mean, Andy Heck in Kansas City, we use these pop-up bags that are more of the defensive-line ones where you always see them, like, slapping them at the combine and stuff. Well, we do that pre-practice. We line up, we take a pass set. Another offensive alignment throws the bag at you. It's just kind of ingraining, like you have to punch it with the right timing. Otherwise, you can tell if you're late, you can tell if you're early.

Just those kind of simple things that help teach you what the right timing is for when to throw the hands and you get that instant feedback because you can see how the bag reacts and you know you can see a guy like me or a guy like fish and you can see that snap and then you see the third string guy and you don't quite get the snap and there's some disconnect so I think in for leatherwood's case it was more just kind of smoothing out exactly how to utilize such great athleticism and then just using that and refining kind of that specific punch timing at the top of the rush because again he has all the tools he's he's got the mind for it like he's a smart guy he loves learning.

Hopefully he's able to turn around here. And I think he's still on your team maybe. So hopefully he's able to give you guys some good reps here. Yeah. I wanted to revisit this very, very quickly before we moved on because I looked it up when you guys were talking. So Andrew Whitworth was 335 at the combine, which is like 85th percentile for offensive tackle.

Let me tell you, most guys don't lose weight after the combine. So let's say comfortably he's in the 90th percentile. The two guys that the Bengals drafted that are part of the. of this conversation. Cedricabooey and Jake Fisher, both of them weighed 305 at the combine. So both of them were 24th percentile for offensive tackle weight compared to Andre Smith,

who was also 335, and Andrew Whitworth was who it was 335. So again, if we're trying to do a little fact-finding mission about how some of this stuff happens, that gap is very obvious with Cincinnati. Marshall, Mitch mentioned Leatherwood and kind of as a specific guy that had some technical deficiencies.

Anybody that you have either watched, that applies to this group, or even guys that you played with, that you watched struggle, with something similar. Another example of a technical deficiency that was just difficult to work through even if somebody had the motivation to try to do it.

Trying to think of like towards the end of my career because I was in more of a veteran role where I could, I'd observe more and was trying to help guys out. I was in Buffalo briefly. And so I worked alongside, I mean, DDock, who's, he's coming to his own, but works alongside him because we both have similar builds and then

ended up getting traded and I was in Carolina but since then I've seen watch Greg Little a little bit and kind of seeing a guy that traded up for and traded capital away and some of the stuff that you know he's got everything you want in size and stuff but there's just a

disconnect between you know what he should be able to do and what he's done a little bit at the college level and in the NFL and obviously some of that he's got concussion stuff going on but a few guys have been plenty of guys over the years where you're just like, all right, you're one or two couple things clicking away from this, you're just being a solid lockdown tackle. Like, it's really not that, you're not that

far removed because you've got all the other, the God-given stuff. And, you know, you want to, as a vet on the squad, you're trying not to usurp Olincoast because they've got their egos and their pride. But, you know, you try to take a guy off the side. Like, hey, you know, I see, you know, where you could be, and I hope you understand what you have, but it's going to take you a little bit of work, but it's not unattainable. And it's, you know, little things here or there, but they're also, like I said, they're balancing that act of this coach who wants to try to mold me or, you know, he has this perfect way of doing it, quote, quote, in his mind.

And you're trying to level that with, what do I need to do to win the block? And so at the time in Buffalo, we had Juan Castillo, and then in Carolina, we had John Matzco. I've had Hall of Fame O-Line coaches, but all strong personalities and strong technique types. They want what they want. And so I can't imagine being a rookie. I came in as a vet who,

maybe I'm a little jaded, but I was just like, I can't imagine a strong personality who's got, had a history, had some guys hit and who's trying to really emphasize what they want to do. And you're sitting here trying to implement it on. Maybe it's just not clear. And either that's just because you're not meant to do this at your height, or there's a disconnect

between how the coach is teaching it and how you absorb information. Mitch, anybody else, either from either your career among these guys that were recently drafted that you think has a particularly interesting kind of technical story that you think really paints a picture about how this can go? Well, I want to jump on the Juan Castillo point because my coach that I referenced George Warhop was a Castillo disciple. I know a little bit about Juan and guys who played with him. it's a very very specific vertical setting technique like it's very specific but he also is a freaking

grinder and you know he's going to get every single minute that the CPA allows to get you out on that field and to coach you and he's going to utilize it you know he came to talk to us when he was actually unemployed I think right after he left buffalo and he was saying that he felt like he slacked off because he only worked 16 to 18 hours a day you know he needs to get back to working 19 to 20 hours a day and you know Marshall's laughing because he understands So, like, Juan is just a work, work guy. And he marries being able to teach the techniques that he wants with, you know, the guys that he's coaching. Like, there are some guys whose bodies don't work with vertical setting.

You know, I see it a lot. And you can tell based on stance, like guys who have super narrow stances with their stagger basically means that, like, they can't vertical set. And they're just trying to get, like, their feet as stacked as they can so they can just push straight back. I think one of the things that's lost in the Joe Thomas stance is most people assume that he actually had a really narrow stance because that left foot is so far behind him. But the left foot was always kind of outside his left hip. So he always had a bit of width to him. And Bakhtiari, like you think of him and his stance, his left foot's like crazy splits. Yeah.

Crazy wide. But it doesn't necessarily look like that on first glance on the TV copy because it's so far back. You just think it's this like, you know, kind of crazy split stance and you're going to use it to push off. And to me, that's a technical thing where when guys are being asked to vertical set, the coach isn't necessarily giving them the right tools or they're being too strict with. It has to be 100% vertical. Like, there's vertical enough. You know, your left foot if you're a right tackle, my left foot doesn't have to be completely vertical every single step.

Like if I'm on a hash. Explain vertical in that context. Yeah, so there's vertical in terms of a pass set, you know, for me as a right tackle. my left foot is going to be the one that's up. It's going to be the one I'm pushing off. The right foot's behind me. So a vertical set to most coaches, that left foot would never go more right of where I am in my pass set than where it originally aligned. I would just literally be going straight back basically towards my own end zone. And I think the coaches that are really strict about that and don't allow six to 12 inches of play with that, you know, kind of ruin guys because it's extremely difficult to get a guy to be purely vertical setting, unless you're Juan Castillo, who's coached for forever, George Warhop,

and you understand the mechanics of it. You know, Warhop coached vertical setting. He coached past setting different than anyone I've ever seen because he adapted it to the vertical set. You know, most guys think of like a kick slide. That's a term you normally hear where, you know, you're kind of making that kick with your outside foot and then your inside foot is sliding along with it. Hop hated that.

He didn't teach, you know, kick slide, kick slide. He taught individual steps. So, you know, you'd kick out for me again as the right tackle, my right foot's back, I'd push off my left. And instead of just letting that left foot go wherever it needed to, he would coach individually, that left leg has to like pull back and it has to pull back and pull back. And if you do this and you're not used to it, your left glute and your left hamstring go on fire because you're not used to training those. But it's every pass set is basically two steps. Most guys teach one kick, two kicks, three kicks.

For hop, three kicks is six steps because they all have to work in. individually, and that footwork has to mesh with how to actually vertical set. And that's where you're teaching a guy how to properly vertical set. And I've seen coaches and really good coaches who teach vertical sets. They like the idea of it. They know that it's good against TEs or it's good against certain defensive fronts. They don't quite know how to teach it. They force their guys to, you know, stringently adhere to the vertical set without giving

them the tools on how to actually accomplish that. The guy starts messing with a stance. He doesn't trust it. He's uncomfortable. And that's when, again, things kind of go mentally. and you don't have that confidence, you know, that gets back into tipping stances and all these other things. But like, I'd rather the defender know that it's a pass if my offense alignment's comfortable. Because if you're uncomfortable in a run stance or a balanced stance, you're probably not going to be successful anyway.

So enabling an offense alignment with whatever technique you're using to be comfortable, I think is, you know, one of the most important points that probably coaches lose when they're not able to both have techniques that are kind of, meshing with just general principles and also when they're not able to adapt certain techniques to certain guys. Marshall, you said you played for eight offensive line coaches. How prevalent do you think it is in the NFL where if you're a guy who needs a little bit of extra work, if you're a project, if you need a really strong development plan, what percentage of offensive line coaches are you just DOA? Like, it's just not going to happen based on who your offensive line coach is in your

estimation? It's a low percentage. They have the will and the want to, and whether they stood up on table for you in the draft room, on a war room or something, or they wanted to sign you in France or whatever. Most of the coaches, they want them to get it right and work it through. They'll use this opportunity to argue about limitations of the CBA and all that stuff.

Because, you know, back in the day, they got us in February, and they could spend hours outside in the field, and they think that that was the saving grace for some guys, and it might have been. But, you know, most of them want to get it right, but it's, you know, there is very, there's not as much patience as you would like. Because you're talking about getting drafted at 2021. There's Lyman that don't come into their own to like 25, 26, 27. It's a strength thing.

It's just an awareness thing. It's like a confidence in who I am and what I, you know, my strengths and playing into those. And by that time, you might have been given up on. They might have taken a couple years. They might have just given up on you. So, yeah, just I think there's a will to, but I don't know if there's as much of a universal understanding that, you know, this specific position just takes away more time than most. And, you know, Mitchell can attest to this. Like, we so much is like in the grading system of each particular team and coach and offense.

And that is like sometimes like the death knoll, which sometimes doesn't matter. We grade wins even if it's the ugliest win and we grade loss even if it's the prettiest loss. But we're just trying to win blocks. And it's the opposite. When we're catering to like perfect technique and did you do it exactly the way I need you to do it, then guys lose the force for the trees. And they're like, well, what is my version of success?

What does success look like? Is it me winning the rep? Or is it me doing exactly what they needed me to do? Like there's a coach who I won't name, who I played for, who he had a very specific technique that was, it was just a pre-snap technique. It was a, it was a aesthetic. It was like, in the line, we will all look at each other,

like, what the hell are we, why is this so harped on that has no effect on any of our sets? You might be able to guess, I don't know, bitch, but. Yeah, I know. He also taught. It's a Super Bowl, it's a Super Bowl winning offensive line coach. And you're like, if I'll

tell you off camera, I'm just like, wait, why did that matter? And I, because he won with guys and they bought into a little bit and they did it. It had no barren on their success. And so you see us on film, huh? Tell him how he taught defeating bull rushes. Oh, yeah, that's right.

Okay. He taught it by, you see a bullrush that you headbutt back into the bullrush. Like, you proactively headbutt the bullrush. And then you drive them three yards. And he wanted them guys to practice this against each other. And you're just sitting there like, I don't know

how to like square what is, to me, complete another bullshit with like I need to win I need to do well in practice I'm trying to earn a spot I'm trying to show my teammates that I can you know add value of the team and this guy's teaching me

this stuff that he's convinced is the reason he's been so successful because he's got a Super Bowl ring and you're like God I don't you know what do I do and so you know ultimately you acquiesce a little bit but you also kind of just like say screw it I'm just going to try to win the block and it's it's wild

but you know most coaches are good well attention, but, you know, well-intention can still mean negative effects to some people if it's just they're not handled right. Mitch, there was one other guy that I think you wanted to talk about specifically with some of this stuff that, again, was a first-round player that didn't really work out. It actually just got a very, very modest second deal to go to Tennessee, but that's Andre Dillard. Yeah, that's an understatement on that contract. I think he's an interesting one to look at because, you know, Stoutland is considered the best offensive line coach, if not top three with, you know, Callahan.

Very far removed from the conversation we just had, right? You're not going to lay it at Jeff Stoutland's feet that Andre Diller didn't work out. So right now it's probably Stoutland, Callahan, and Heck are probably the top three that people talk about a lot. And Dillard is probably the only guy he hasn't been able to quote-unquote develop. And so you wonder what's going on there. And Dillard was a guy that he came out and he's got the beautiful feed, he's got the pitter, and they're super quick and everything.

The questions were kind of offensive structure. You know, he came from Washington State and he was, running a spread system. And so his splits are super wide, which is one thing. He played against some, you know, kind of old school odd defenses where he had four techniques head up on him and didn't really have to show, you know, it's good at pass sets. You know, the play strength aspect of it, again, is, are the splits so wide that you can kind of get bull rushed to, you know, it's really an unacceptable level, but you're not close enough to the quarterback because you align so wide, which is why every tackle loves aligning as wide as you can. And so he's a guy that just didn't pan out. And I would say,

his technique style is more of the finesse, like, I'm going to be super quick, but he doesn't have the hands that a lot of finesse guys do. He has the hands of big guys, and he wants to play a little bit more catchy and more double under. And he landed in a spot where he's watching Jason Peters, who refuses to step on a scale, but I would imagine most of the time the Diller was there. The first number was a four, not a three. And he's watching Freak Show Lane Johnson do the same technique to great success. And, you know, I don't specifically know what Stallant teaches his tackles.

I'd imagine he kind of leaves his starters alone. But again, he's watching Mylotta who comes in and plays over him at 6-8-365, who's another one of the top freaks. And so whether Dillard is trying to copy these guys but doesn't have the body for it, or he's trying to adapt to a new technique. You know, I never really saw him kind of adapt to a true punching style technique or style that really mirrors with what his athletic skill set looks like. You know, for guys who are, you know, in the 6.5.

four, six, five, three hundred to three ten region who are super quick. You know, that's where you can vary your sets as much as you want because you have the athletic ability to counter to inside moves. You can, you know, maybe get your, as a left tackle, left hand swiped around the corner, but you're quick enough to not just give up the corner. You can still run a guy around the pocket, 11 or 12 yards, which is acceptable. And so he just never figured out how to mesh a punching style that's a little bit more, you know, traditional to his athletic profile and you know it's hard to know where to place blame like

is it Stalin is it Dillard is it a combination of the two where there are other things you know we talked about a little bit we haven't really touched on as a guy just not willing to learn is he not willing to try stuff like I don't know specifically I haven't talked to anyone there so this isn't me putting anything on the situation but those are the situations that makes you wonder because the guy who was productive in college he's got a good enough athletic profile to be a tackle he was playing guard and tackle there both on the left side, which is his preferred side. You know, they like refused to move him to right tackle. I think maybe they had lane at one point kick out to left tackle because Dillard was like

truly a left side guy. And it's really rare to have a team realize that you can only play one side of the line. And Philadelphia was aware enough that they knew Diller could only play left tackle or left guard that I think they were like flirting or they made him move lane to the left side just or whatever it was. maybe they moved Peters to the right side to allow Dillard to play left tackle, whatever it was. Like, they knew he could only play left side. So, like, they were aware of these deficiencies.

You got the top O-L-line coach, if not top three-o-line coach in the NFL, a team that's developed every single offensive alignment they've touched. And just something didn't quite pan out. And, again, that makes me think, is there more to the mental side of it that you just, you won't know unless you're in that room? But that's where maybe we can take the talk next is what are those mental components that can derail offensive line development? in play. That's exactly what I was going to do with.

Marshall, what would you start with? What would you say is probably the main mental hurdle or main mental barrier that creeps up for guys? You know, I think it happens with any competitive athlete. It's just a lapse in confidence because you don't get to this place without some element of being supremely confident because you've done it at the highest level in college and you've been recruited and you've been drafted and all those other stuff. And, you know, It could be a bad game. It could be a bad week of practice. You never know.

Or it could be a coach who's berating you and is kind of giving you the cold shoulder. It could be a multitude of things in the facility, obviously not to say what's going on off the field. But yeah, confidence. I mean, at my best, I knew that I had the best get off on the offensive line. I had timed whatever quarterback I was planning with the moment. There was a lot of them. I had figured out his cadence or I had figured out my center's head bob or silent count. I had the best get off.

I could get to my spot. I had the hands and feet to recover and I had studied my opponent and I knew kind of, you know, the two or three or three things they're going to do. And I knew the ball was going to be gone in three and a half to four seconds most of the time. And so that confidence juxtaposed with times where I, you know, I was, you know, playing out of position or didn't have as much time to prep as I'd hoped. I was going against a really good player. You had a weird week of practice.

Your body's not feeling right. You don't know where you stand in the coaches in the team's eyes. And you go and your body genuinely shows it. Sometimes it's just hard to overcome. And that mental confidence, literally as a tackle and alignment, you could win a block by taking a great set and just being in the way. So much of that game, it's just that simple. Being in the way in the right way.

and you win. Like, you could have been bad feet, bad hands, but you're there and, you know, the ball's gone. Like, that happens a lot. And to have, you know, something like that that is pretty cut and dry and still struggle, there's really a got to do something that's just off about kind of how you've approached it and how you're, you know, are you holding on to bad snaps the next drive? Like, you know, are you able to flush it short term?

Are you able to kind of self-correct and adapt mid-game? You know, I just isn't working today. I'm shooting my outside hand at his chest instead of at his outside shoulder. When he swipes, I'm off balance. You know, am I tipping off my stance? Is it not even? Like, little stuff. So usually you can course correct, especially as you progress, you know, in age and experience.

But there's this times when you're just like, man, I've lost sight of what's gotten me here and the confidence. And I can't doubly so when you're a young guy. There's no one. you're kind of solo. You're there just like figuring it out. And sometimes it's painful. There's fire. There's ridicule.

You're probably paying too much attention to Twitter and all kind of stuff. And so it could be a snowball effect. And if there's not a coach there or a mentor there or an OG who can kind of help you just be like, shake it out of you a little bit, reminds you of what you can do and get back to work and, you know, an efficient optimized work, then there's guys who we, you know, we law it as, you know, what's happened? What's wrong with this guy? But it just might be a little. little thing that we just have no idea about.

Next thing you know, three teams later, maybe he figures it out, like, oh, what a redemption story. It's like, well, no, he just, he had a chance to kind of look inward and he had a good coach, and he had a good system, and things were aligned really, really well. And it could be that, it could be something like that. And so it's just, not to get too granular, but sometimes it just, it could be where your headspace is. Yeah, I want to, I'm going to jump in real quick.

So you said a lot of really interesting. points there. And one thing that probably doesn't ever get talked about is you said a bad week of practice. And so there's a big disconnect between what the coaching staff wants to see from a scout team and what the offensive line wants the scout team defense align to do. So basically every offensive lineman will tell you, you just want the guy to go 80 to 90 percent, give you a move or two, and just like that's it. Like scout, that week of practice is about me preparing myself for what I'm going against. For some guys, especially when you're younger in your career, you're just, you're taking pass sets and you're trying to work technique. Like, it's not

specific. It's not, I'm going against Caliola Mac and he long arms a lot. So I'm going to work a Hamilton this week. It's just like, I'm just going to take my pass set and try to ingrain this good technique and, you know, whatever happens happens. Obviously, guys on scout team are not the starters on the defensive side. So they're either lower on the roster or they're on the practice squad and they're trying to get playing time. They're trying to show the coaches they need to stick around. And so there are some guys, I mean, we used to call them saboteurs or, you know, There's a lot of names for guys like that, but they just don't give a shit. And to be fair, it's their right to do whatever they think they need to do to make a football team and to make a career.

I understand that. And the coaching staff typically loves that because they want that guy to go super hard to give the tackle a good look and all the stuff. And for the most part, those guys never make it on an NFL like roster because whatever they do somehow works in practice and just doesn't work in games. And so you just want the guy to go 80 to 90 percent still be somewhat realistic and give you a luck. You know, as you get older your career, hey, I'm going against this guy this week. He does a lot of this move. Can you show me a lot of these? And you can kind of get that work in at you're basically going full speed.

He's going slightly slower. It gives you a fuck ton of confidence that like, yeah, I've landed this move a bunch of times this week. I feel really good about the game plan. And that's how you want to enter a week. And, you know, you've got certain players that you go against who just kind of ruin your confidence all week. And then you start doubting your set. you start doubting, you know, other things. To me, the stupidest thing that I've seen coaches do, like, by far the stupidest thing

is you're going against a quick fast guy and they have the defense alignment align like a foot off sides so that he can mimic, like, getting to the corner at a certain spot where, like, they think Vaughn Miller is going to be. It's like, all right, you're just telling this tackle. Just freak the fuck out before the play starts and panic and do something that you're not going to do in a game and your body's not used to. So, yeah, we all have these kind of stories of, what practices like throughout the week and what we prefer to see in practice throughout the week

and to feel confident going into the game. And that's also where, you know, Marshall's talked about being a veteran and kind of what a veteran offense alignment looks like in the role. Essentially your role, whether you're playing, you know, I was always playing until I was hurt. And so for the most part, I'm still a veteran who's trying to help young guys and trying to make them better. You're meshing your experience of your playing career and all the other coaches you've worked

with to your system, the guy you're talking to in that moment who's playing on your team and the coaching he's getting. And you're trying to kind of make it collaborative and whether you're trying to ingrain what the coach is trying to get out of him. You're maybe giving him something like, hey, try this, which is a little different way to think of it than maybe you're used to. Or, you know, hey, I know coach is asking you to do this. You should just try this other thing that I think might work for you.

You know, see where it goes. You can go up to them because, again, as a first, second, third year guy, especially if you're struggling, you don't have the confidence to go to your coach and say, hey, what your coaching isn't working me, working for me. You know, no second year player who's struggling unless you're just a total dick is going to walk into the office and be like, your coaching sucks. But, like, you can talk to them and say, hey, you know, coaches love when you go to them and say, hey, I'm struggling with this thing that you're coaching me. Like, I want to figure it out. Like, how can we make it work? And so you go up to that guy and you say, hey, like, go up to your coach and say, you know, I know I'm working on my outside hand a lot.

Like, I'm really struggling with it. I don't know what else to do. Like, is it okay if I try this other thing? Is there something else you can help me to figure out for your technique? But like, the coach wants to be empowered to help you as well. And so that's where if you're a veteran and you kind of know either you can teach that guy yourself or kind of walk him through how to approach the coach. And again, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to go into his office while he's studying film. Like it can be on the field after a, uh, uh, uh, a, uh, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, you can be on

practice that when you're all just kind of standing there but go up to and be like hey i'm working on this thing i'm really struggling with it like is there anything else that we can try to do to to make it work or can i try this other thing i've done in the past and that's where older guys who have been through it and seeing a lot of stuff you can really help younger guys and you know they're not going to pay you to be a veteran in the locker room like they don't you know the NFL doesn't pay just to have older guys around for that purpose because i don't think they even realize you know exactly how valuable an older guy can be who understands um but that is the benefit of you. to having some old guys in the offensive line room who have been around and who've seen a lot of

different things. The confidence part I think obviously is important for a lot of different athletes, but for offensive linemen, I think it's particularly important because on a football level, I think that offensive line, maybe outside of quarterback and maybe you could throw a corner in there, is probably the most fragile position on a football field in terms of like how playing with assertiveness and playing with confidence and how important every aspect of like the chain of movement is and how fast it can go to shit and how apparent that is. I'm not sure it's more obvious than offensive line.

No, so I'm going to, so what I always tell people, if the guy I'm going against gets one sack a game, he now has 17 sacks in the season, he's an all pro, he's the best at his position, and he's the best player in the NFL. If I give up one sack a game, I'm cut and I'm no longer in the NFL. Like, that's the margin of error. Like, I can't give up one sack a game. That guy, if he gets one sack of game, he's the best in the NFL at what he does. and there's a very big difference between those too

and kind of puts into perspective for people that don't quite understand just how difficult it is. And talking about that understanding of, right, where is my body going? How much awareness do I have about how it's moving? If there is any like sand in the microchip there, that stuff can even be thrown off. So it just feels like the fragility of it at this position is so pronounced that if you're a guy, let's use Austin Jackson as an example, right?

Austin Jackson's a first round pick. He has four different offensive line coaches and like his first three seasons. He's hurt a little bit if a small injury derails your development plan. If changing offensive line coaches derails your development plan. Again, the fragility of this seems like a really big deal, even when you compare it to other positions, Marshall. Yeah, definitely. And I'll give an example of one that's worked out well, a guy who I played with in Carolina,

Taylor Moten. Taylor Moten, if you ever meet him and talk to him, you're like, this guy, I know he cares about football, but he's, his, he has such a compartmentalized way of going about it where when he leaves, he's thinking about his family and, you know, what movies is he going to watch or whatever his interests are. You can very much tell that he has segmented his life in that way. And then when he's in the, when he's on the practice field, he's literally the most, we say robotic pejoratively and like it's such a bad thing. he is truly consistently setting the same all the time. And it has made him one of the most consistent tackles in the league. And you do it. He does it at practice.

And I'm watching him. And he's still, I think that I was his first or second year. And you're like, man, I wish I could literally clear my brain, clear my CPU and just like get to the spot every time, have some variant,

but like really just like hone in and like time after time off time. Just be consistent. And he's a guy, a younger guy. who despite he had Coach Matscoe, who has a very specific style, Taylor whatever he needed to do to his body type at right tackle with his hands and his feet and he just is consistent. Like boringly, like yawn consistent, but it works.

And defensive ends hate going against him because it's like you can't rattle him. You're not going to get him to overset the next time. You're not going to get him to overcommit to the bull. Like he's just going to be where he's going to be. he's strong and he's like capable and you gotta deal with that and guys hate that they hate that you can't rattle him you hate that he doesn't talk crap with the field and that you can't get under his skin because he's like I don't even know who you are I barely know your name I'm just doing my thing and there's an element to that of each guy catering to his own personality that's Taylor's

personality and but it translates to consistency on the field and consistency in this technique and I envy that I hope I wish more young guys could find a sense of that even speaking to to my younger selves, a sense of just like this, the monotony of your technique, which we just have to do it over and over again. And, you know, there's a rep part to it. But there's just like, the confidence of just like, let me just go do it. And I'm win most of these times. And if I lose, I lose, it won't snowball. I'll keep doing it the next time. And I'll end up, you know, getting Pro Bowl votes or I'll end up getting a second, third contract. That's all I care about. I'm helping my team win.

Pretty point blank period. Snowball is a good word. I think that's kind of what I was referring to is that at this position, it feels like it could snowball faster than pretty much any other position than quarterback. That's what it feels like to me. And I think, again, it speaks to the fragility of it. Mitch, any other parting thoughts here about people, takeaway people should have about why these struggles can happen

and what to keep in mind as we're watching this next class of offensive tackles come in and try to navigate these waters? Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing is always, everyone cares like no one wants to go out there and suck and be awful you know i'm guessing most of your listeners aren't going to be the ones who are uh tweeting people and and posting nasty messages but like for the most part i mean we touched on isaiah wilson that seems to be the one outlier where like just didn't care about football and wanted to do whatever else he wanted to do like everyone else wants to be good and it's really disappointing when you're not good and especially as a first rounder

you have that kind of hype around your name and expectations. Like, these guys are trying. Like, it's really difficult. You know, you're either not confident like we keep talking about and you're struggling there. There's some sort of frustration because your technique doesn't match up what the coach wants to teach. Maybe you're just not quite good enough. Like, there are instances where a guy can do everything right, but he just not quite strong enough, not quite quick enough, whatever, and it doesn't work out.

So I would just say, you know, have some understanding. Like there's a reason that the hit rates are so low on basically every position. Like, it's just extremely difficult. And if six tackles are taken this year, you know, two are going to be really good, two are going to be average, and two are going to suck. And unfortunately, you know, might be the guy on your team. But I guarantee you he's trying. I guarantee you he's trying to become a good player.

And, you know, the last thing I'll probably say is tackle elitist here. You know, whenever a tackle sucks, you can always say, hey, let's kick him down to guard. He might be okay. You never heard anyone say, hey, this guard sucks. Let's kick him out to tackle and he'll be all right. So just remember that your offensive tackles

are always better than your offensive guards. Ady boy. Marshall, any parting thoughts here? I just love, I'm all for the pettiness. I'm here for it. Yeah, I would just say, you know, if you're a fan, if you're listening to this, this is very niche right now.

But if you're a fan of your team, this podcast is for 10 people. It couldn't get more niche. But, you know, pay attention to, you know, these guys, I was doing a Big 12 show about talking about the Big 12 linemen that are going to go high. And pay attention to what a fit looks like for that tackle or guard taken. And understand that, like Mitch said, he's trying, he's learning. It's literally drinking from a fire hose for the first 18 months of your NFL career.

You don't know which way is up. They're trying everything out. You're figuring out how to be on time and be a professional and, you know, earn your place. and there's so much going on. But pay attention to the fit. Like, if you know your team is trying to run a lot of power and you've drafted a guy from the Pac-12 who threw 50 times a game, well, hey, Big 12, maybe Big 12.

But maybe he didn't have his hand in the dirt but for 5% of the time. Like, that is not an indicator that he's not going to be successful, but it's going to take time to – it's going to take an adjustment period. And for some guys, it'll be longer than others. Like Mitch said, some guys aren't going to be good enough. They're going to, some, you know, some front office got it wrong on their, you know, their draft place. But, you know, understand that that's, there's just such a, you know, a picking process that guys go through and the teams are figuring out. And that's why it is such an imperfect science is talent evaluation.

And why, I don't know what the, if there's a compounding percentage of hit rate, it's astronomically low. It's so hard to get it right, especially as a lineman offensive tackle guard center. So have perspective in that, you know, understand guys are trying. I understand that there's just so much variance to what goes into being successful in the Philo Office of line. Yeah, and also just to jump in, like, perfection's not going to happen. Even like, you know, your best guys, you draft a first rounder, you kind of assume he's going to be the tackle for 12 years. Like, the position's really hard, and you're going to have bad games. You're going to have bad reps.

You're going to get beat by these freakazzoids who are 6-8, 285, who run 4-4s and can bench 800 pounds. Like, you're going to lose, and that's okay. And, you know, you're going to have a couple plays that maybe the quarterback was too deep and, you know, the fans don't necessarily know about that aren't your fault. Like, just have some perspective that, like, you know, a quarterback is, if he's 21 for 30, that's a good game. But an offensive tackle, if he's 21 for 30, that's an awful game.

Like, there's this perspective that, like, not everything's going to be perfect. Losses are okay. Like, you're okay to struggle against good competition. there are guys who are going to be elite and, you know, those are few and far between. The offensive line position is a lot harder than it's ever been. So also just adjust your expectations as a fan and as a viewer, especially when you're watching your own team and you just want your guys to be so good. Like, guys are going to fail, guys are going to have bad plays. It's okay.

That doesn't mean that the world's going to fall. And, you know, if you're able to give that support to the player and, you know, they can see that. You know, they're also going to get that from their team. teammates, their coaching staff, all that. Like it becomes this well-rounded thing where things don't snowball. They flourish. And it's like, hey, I lost. It's okay.

The world's not going to end. Like, I can keep going. So just, you know, it's okay if a guy loses every once in a while. Like, that happens. I have one more thing before you're at. If there's any coordinators out there listening, run more play action, that's all I have to say. All right. There's your hour-long podcast about offensive line minutia and how it

contributes to the success or failure of young players around the league. I've said this before. It was just an immense mistake for this company to put me in charge of programming their NFL podcast. I can't even describe how misguided this idea was. For now, really, really appreciate you guys listening. We will be back on Monday with our very good friend Bill Barnwell. We're going to be talking about a little recent draft history and some stuff that we can learn from it.

So very excited about that. If you have not listened to the podcast about this year's draft group with Dane and Brandon Thorne, that is available for you guys right now. Please go check that out. It was really fun recording with those guys. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform for choice. If you like the show and you listen on Apple Podcast, leave us a review. I would consider it a personal favor. It would mean a lot to me.

So please do that. Please subscribe to the athletic, where you can read all of our wonderful draft coverage, including access to Dane, Bruegler's draft guide, The Beast, which is like 700 pages long and has the most in-depth reports on every single guy in the draft. And I don't understand how it's actual conceivably possible for him to finish this every single year. But somehow he does, theathletic.com slash football show is where you can get that subscription. We'll be back on Monday. Enjoy your guys this weekend.

We will talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.