The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Xavien Howard’s trade request, Colts & Browns team visits and a look inside camp with Cleveland TE coach Drew Petzing

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

Robert Mays and Nate Tice discuss the latest news and notes across the league including Aaron Rodgers’ candid press conference, Xavien Howard’s trade request and more. Plus, Robert’s training camp tour has officially begun with stops in Indianapolis and Cleveland. The Athletic’s Colts writer Zak Keefer joins the show to talk about Carson Wentz and the question marks on defense. Also, Browns writer Zac Jackson stops by to discuss Baker Mayfield’s growth and the return of OBJ. Finally, Robert catches up with Browns’ TE coach Drew Petzing for a look inside camp.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? Doing great. I was just thinking about how every one of these shows for the next month,

you're just going to have a changing background. Oh, it's going to be something completely different. Is not in Zoom at all? Actually, you moving from hotel room to hotel room. The next time I talked to a college class or a journalism student, and they asked me what the job is like, I'm just going to tell them about this beautiful. view I have right now of the Buffalo Airport that as I'm staring out this window over a parking

lot. It's been a heck of a two days in a fun way. Like it is so good to be back on the road and back around football. But I mean, I've spent the last two days at Colton Brown's training camp and most of the highway in America between Chicago and Buffalo where I am right now. But it's been great. And we have a really fun show for you guys today. I've been on the road. And as part of this show, we're going to have check-ins from both of the camps I've been to. to the Colts and the Browns, and that includes sit downs with athletic writers from both teams. Zach Kiefer and Zach Jackson really enjoy talking to both of those guys. Great insight.

And that's the hope over the next few weeks is I want to be able to give you guys a sense of what this time of year is like around the NFL and what it's like to be at these camps. And sometimes that's going to mean conversations with the writers who know these teams way more than I do, way more than you do. Also, I wanted the show to kind of be a window beyond that into what this trip is like for me. every year. And that's going to include some of the sit downs that I'm going to have with various coaches and players that I talk to you. In years past when I've done this, all the stuff is either gone out the window or it's been gone into the writing that I've done.

I think this year is a real opportunity to kind of have these conversations on the show. And we're starting that off today with Brown's tight end coach, Drew Petzing, who has worked with Kevin Stefanski for years, dating back to their time in Minnesota. He's an up-and-coming assistant in the league. I'm really hoping that conversations like that can give you guys some insight into the voices and personalities around the league and into, again, what this time of year is like for us. And maybe it won't. Maybe it's a terrible idea, but we're going to give it a try anyway. I love all the prep for camp too, because that's the thing I actually love when you're just having all the local beat writers on because that's what training camp really is.

It's almost like a stock market. It's like like, like, because we take snapshots of it, you know, being on Twitter, being online, seeing, you know, sports center, just whatever online stuff you see. Sometimes it's almost like you get a snapshot. You're like, oh, we're all excited. So we're all going to take a real big glance at who these like early risers are during training camp. We see the highlight videos when everyone's in short still. And then we kind of forget about guys until mid, mid camp after the second preseason game. You know, like there's kind of like ebbs and flows like having those beat writers on though helps so much, just say beat writers.

But the local writers for the athletic is. that they're there through the whole ebbs and flows of training camp because it really is a stock market for these guys because like in when throughout camp you have your set depth chart like the whole you have these team meetings these staff meetings are all the coaches in there and the head coach is going to go by position by position and go like hey de line coach how do you get how do you have these guys oh i can't see a different do you see different dc and depending on the room some guys are have louder voices than others but just how training camp goes it's like sometimes every day is just going to be so drastic different because every day more than those preseason games that's what's going to stand out more

more than that one minute clip we see on Twitter more than what we see maybe one preseason game where the guy gets five snaps you know so that's what's so great having those kind of writers on and that's why i lean much more on the conversations i have than the observations i make it's not just who looks good from day to day it's who's looked good over the first week what are the positions that we want to take a look at where is the depth where are the concerns that's what those conversations are like That's what it was like with the Zaks, and that's what's going to be like here moving forward here over the next couple weeks. As far as the rest of this show goes, we had an idea for today's show that we just didn't feel like we could do the right way without the All-22 being up on Game Pass. It's not available right now.

And we like to do our homework on this show. I don't always know what I'm looking at, but I look at it. And I just didn't feel like we could do this show the right way without it. So we're going to say that idea for a little bit later. Hopefully it resolves itself. Hopefully over the next few days, it's up and we have access to all that stuff again. But we're going to bite our time a little bit. And instead, we're going to chat about some of the news that's happened over the past couple days

because it's been a pretty newsworthy couple days. Obviously, the Eric Rogers press conference happens yesterday. I hadn't been able to watch the whole thing because I had been on the road for the last two days. I sat back and I watched the whole half-hour press conference as I got to this hotel room Buffalo today. I'm not trying, I don't want to be hyperbolic because I, guys, sometimes I can't be. I don't want to overstate this. It's one of the more interesting interactions and decisions I've ever made, I've ever seen a superstar athlete make where you can just tell he was going to go to that podium. I've been in that room plenty of times at Lambeau.

And there was going to be no half-assing it. There was going to be no half measures. He was going to present everything that he wanted to and he was going to lay it out on the table. He easily could have said, guys, you know, that's all in the past. I'm here. I want to focus on this season. And that's happened so many times. And he decided not to do that.

And I thought that it gave rare insight into things we never really understand or appreciate or know. There's so many things. Even if we think we're plugged in, even the people that are plugged in, you can speculate all you want. But there's no way to really know. And I think that happened with Rogers, but it's happened a couple different times. with NFL players this week. Yeah, I mean, it's so, I don't want to say empowerment or anything like that, but it really kind of is, but it's so great to not just say like, oh, I'm pissed off or I, you know,

through different mediums of, of the media, you know, through tweets or talk shows or whatever, but actually just going bulletin pointed like this is all the way through. It was incredibly thorough. All the way through it. It was a good way to put it. It was like Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame speech, you know, just like this is so upset starting and J.B. all the way up to the pros. But that is like, I, players have held out, like Emmett Smith held out, missed two games, regular season games. Like players have held out

before. But as is this new CBA where the guys not being able to truly hold out because it's a $50,000 fine that sticks now. This is their recourse. This is how they have to do this now. This is the way Xavier Rose is just going, hey, this is why. This is boom, boom, boom, boom, Bo, Boom, Boom. Xavier Howard, which we'll talk about here. Zach Howard, not Xavier Roads. I'm so sorry. Xavier Howard, but going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, one after another.

And that's the new, that's the newness of this. We've seen TEO doing sit-ups in the parking lot, you know, his driveway. Like, we've seen kind of like guys doing that. But now they're saying that kind of the quiet part loud, kind of maybe. Exactly. That stuff is stinty. Yeah. This is laying it all on the table.

There's a transparency here. Stunting that we're not used to. Yep. And that, it's just watching him go through it all. yesterday. It was kind of vindicating because this is what I believed was probably true. It wasn't about money. It wasn't about Jordan Love.

It was about I want agency here. I want to be able to control what's happening here. I want respect. I want my voice to be heard. And even if we've said that a bunch of times on this show that that might, that's probably what this is rooted in, hearing him lay it out in such plain terms was just so jarring. And just like this started in March. I wanted to be a part of free agent conversations.

then it didn't happen. Just having that completely open book, players go to Green Bay to play with me. And it was like, you're not wrong. It was incredible to hear. It was. And I can't decide if this is going to happen more.

Obviously, the Xavier and Howard thing, I think, is a little bit related and we can talk about that. Whether this is somewhat isolated incident because he's in such rare territory, where he has nothing to lose, he and he's also the type of person who would do this he would get to this place one of the other things I was really struck by and I think this is such an interesting moment for athletes in general in the wake of what happened with Simone Biles earlier this week and some of the reactions to that

just how openly he talked about I wanted to get my mind right and I was spending time on mental health this summer and these other things outside of my job give me joy and happiness and everything else and as someone who in his 30s has really become more in tune with that kind of stuff and is way more into mindfulness is thinking about those sorts of things i appreciate that i appreciate how open he is about that and just again the transparency about that sort of mindset and that sort of world and everything else it just so many things about the way he presented himself in that moment i thought felt new especially in an NFL context and just felt kind of monumental i mean even if we thought we knew this stuff it still felt like what happened with him yesterday meant something.

I don't know. Maybe that's overstating it. Well, we've seen kind of like maybe an awareness, like kind of like a postmodern view like athletes have now of the business of sport, you know, kind of like they, they kind of like are very self-aware of it now and very,

they know not just, you know, like they know, kind of like what arch archetype they are like in a sense now. Like I think players are just becoming, like you hear NBA players talk about all the time. Like, well, my role is on a three. and D guys. So I had to do this, this and this and this, even though you can see this guy go and you

pick up game and just dominate. But it's like, this is my role to get paid in the NBA. It's like NFL players now are where more of how good they are or more like, I can do this extremely well, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like whatever their agents, you said agency and it just made me think like it's what their agents used to say for them. And now they're going like, hey, I got, I'm going to talk about myself because I know what I am. And it's cool. I mean, it's great. It's just shows that there's just more to these athletes and just like what we see out there on a video game or just on fantasy and stuff like that. It's just, I like you said, I don't know if it's, yeah, it's monumental, I guess, but it feels like it's knocking on the doorstep and this is like the door

opening a little bit for players just speaking for themselves, not just like you said, mental health, but just themselves, their own identity with the brand and everything. He was so intentional about making sure he said multiple times, I've made a lot of money doing this. I understand this. It's a privilege to play in this league for this. organization, but that doesn't discount the way I feel. It doesn't discount the way guys should be treated. Even if we've been successful, it doesn't discount the fact that guys should be treated a certain way out the door. It's trying to separate the process from the actual results. It's trying to separate the fact that it doesn't matter that we win. We could be doing this better. It doesn't

matter that I've been paid all this money. I can still feel this way. The way that my feelings are and how I'm trying to approach this is legitimate. And I think that trying to separate those things in such a focused intentional way was really interesting to me as part of that conversation. Yeah. And it's like, this makes me happy. I know we can win when I'm unhappy. Now imagine what we can do when I'm happy. And that's what he's saying. He's like, I just want to be happy with what I have. I love it. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of ended how I thought it would end in a way, but it was just not like that kind of how we went about this press conference. Everything was kind of like a nice little exclamation point, I guess, on his kind of like what he was

trying to say in the last like kind of four or five months and yeah he got his point across that's for sure that's exactly right it's a lot different than like right far before kind of go like I am retiring and just kind of like no one knows and you just like like all of a sudden you hear from a week later and it's like this is a lot different this is kind of like a modern version of like kind of what these athletes are doing with themselves but now the last kind of note on this is that it doesn't seem like things are going very well I mean all the things he asked for they traded for randall cobb right there's a concession He seemed happy about that. But when they asked him about Gunkuts and they asked him about his future and everything else, I think he said it's professional.

And it didn't seem as though many things had changed. The Cobb thing is maybe a bone thrown to him by the organization. But for the most part, I don't think he believes a lot of things are going to change in a very real way. This is what they do. This is what they've always done. He just wanted to make sure the specific ways that people, he wanted to make sure that people knew the specific ways he disagreed with that philosophy. luckily the TV copy has sound so we can hear it because that's all we get to watch now with no all 22 on game pass it's going to be a rough month if they don't if we don't get this soon it's going to be a rough month

I don't realize how much I watched it was oh man taking away my favorite content I got to my hotel yesterday in Toledo and I was like all right time to settle in and watch some guys before we do the show tomorrow and it just wasn't there And I was like, what are we supposed to do? It was not a great moment. So you mentioned the Xavier and Howard thing and how it relates to this. I think it's similar. I think it's a branch off the same tree. Where Xavier and Howard comes out on Instagram,

and we know that he was unhappy with his contract that had been reported previously, but he literally laid it out step by step. I signed a contract I didn't fully understand. I am the second highest paid cornerback on my own team by a lot. Based on how well I've played, that is not okay. I went to the dolphins with my agent. We did not ask for a new deal. All we asked were for a little bit more,

a few more guarantees right now, because I have nothing beyond this year. If you look at the deal he signed, it's a $7 million signing bonus. It was $39 million guaranteed on his, like, big contract. It does not put him in the same ballpark as other guys at his position. His gripes are very real,

and I completely understand all of them, but it was still so jarring and so interesting to see it laid out in such plain terms like he did it. And it's it's kind of like the message is these deals, these NFL contracts is, you know, like you just say, there's very slippery with guarantees is, hey, it's a one year or two year deal that you can get out of. Well, I want it to be a one or a year or two year deal where it's great for me. I want it to be an hour. Hey, you got me for cheap last year or relatively cheap. Like you pay me to be the fifth best corner and I was the second best corner.

It's like, hey, now, you know, let's make it, let's make it fair. And it's like, like, we just talk, this is why. And I know this is, I'm this good. Like I said, he's taking the agent's words and just, I'm doing it now. Because it's just I know, now I am self-aware, not just knowing. Because you've talked to a lot of old, old time NFL guys. There's so many times they talk about the guys they play in the division. And I get that because you watch the film and you watch the film, the guys in your division.

And I think very much, too, is just that that's just the natural with social media, everything becoming just more nationally based now. is players who's good. They don't just, quote, unquote, hear about a guy. They can actually watch a guy and go, I'm effing better than that. Or, God, dang, that guy's really good. You know, like, they can actually have that awareness now. And the pro bowl is guys, players just talk more.

Now there's just more self-awareness. And this is just the next step of that is them going, well, I know I'm top three. I'm on the podium. I should be paid that way. So let's make it fair, at least for the year or two years or three years or whatever we can do. And it's going to be interesting because if he does get traded, I think there is a precedent for what a new deal might look like for him. I think he has three years, $36 million left on his deal.

The deal that Darius Slay signed with the Eagles last year was three years 50. You could easily just throw $14 million more on that deal and have the same deal with Slay. And it would be totally clean and make all the sense in the world. I think the biggest issue here is if a team does want to trade for him and it has been reported that multiple teams have reached out, it's a rough time to be doing it. It's late July in a year where the cap is down. So there just don't seem to be that many teams who might be interested. Here's a couple that I'll throw out.

I think that the Seahawks make sense, even if they don't have that much draft capital. They're in for a penny, in for a pound, man. This team is, they have committed to this. Just one position too. That's what makes it so great. One position group. And they, I mean, listen, they are, they know their timeline.

And they, I understand they don't know a first round pick next year. let's say they could do it for a second. They have, I think, $8 million in cap space. It'd be a little bit tight, but they could probably make it happen, and they have a hole at corner. I also think that the Saints don't have very much money. They have a pressing need at corner, and they're the type of team that would do something like this.

Is there anybody else that, I mean, they're liable to do anything, and they definitely have a need there. Is there anybody else that jumps out to you? I mean, like, yeah, if you go a super team with like the Chiefs, but then I don't know what their caps. I mean, I don't know how you can finagle that at all. So it's like, Like that's one that would make sense just because of what they're,

they're kind of like how they're structured and everything. But again, I have no idea if they can even make it work cap boys. Of course, the Cowboys need so much corner help. But again, don't know what their cap situation is. An exercise in my kind of fun fantasy way, yeah, Cowboys would be number one. Like, boom, that's the top of one because they need so much corner help. I think the other one that makes a lot of sense would be Arizona.

Obviously, they've gone out and guts. They have 11.3 million dollars in cap space. Again, these numbers are sort of funny money. but and you'd have to move some stuff around. They desperately need cornerback play and you don't have to do any projection for how he fits into that defense. Is a man heavy system, they're going to play a ton of press. You can just drop him in and let him do what he does. And that's why he's such an interesting piece, right?

And that's why I think that there are probably teams flirting with the idea of spending a first round pick to go out and get him at his current price. Because he does something that very few guys in the league can do. he can play man coverage on your best receiver all over the field all of the time. And that still has a ton of value, especially as we see more and more teams playing like that, where they're going to say, we're going to dare you to beat us. We're going to manufacture a pass rush and we're going to play a man on the back end. And that's exactly what he does well. There's no imagination necessary.

Not every team runs covered two. Not every team runs cover four, but every team runs man. Yes. That's exactly. That's how translatable it is. it's like that's always going to work. And yeah, so that's the skill. And even if you're a team to cover three team,

like you say the Raiders or something like that, it still translates because you're playing just a top heavy man. I mean, that's really how that three match ends up working, just one side of the field. You know, just any of those types of, that's like Seattle you brought up.

So it's like no matter what scheme, he got his scheme proof. I mean, if you can play man, you're kind of scheme proof. I mean, maybe just not cover two because you're not ball savvy, but that's a whole other story.

All right, buddy. I think that's all we got for today. Again, we have a couple ideas that we're going to try to roll out early next week. Hopefully we have the tape back by then. We also have a lot more coming on today's show. It's always good to chat with you, bud. We will chat with you on Tuesday show.

That sounds good. I can't wait. All right. Thank you, as always to Nate. Always appreciate getting him on. We're going to have a ton of conversations with him between now and the start of the regular season. We have a jam-packed show today. We're going to start where I started my camp trip.

And that is with the Indianapolis Colts and with Colts writer from the athletic. Zach Kiefer. Let's get to it. I'm very excited now to welcome my good buddy, Zach Kiefer. Zach, how you doing, man? Day one of training camp. Day one of training camp. We were recording this in a hallway at the Colts training camp facility.

90 degrees when camp finished. It's 90 degrees. I am still a little bit wet with sweat, but it feels good. It feels like football season. It feels good to be podcasting from a random plastic chair in a random place when it's very hot outside. And we just watched a bunch of football. It feels natural. It feels like we're back.

That's what it feels like. It does. It's very reassuring and it's so nice. I hope I never use Zoom again. I'll say that. The only thing is that the head coach was not here today because he tested positive for COVID, which is not a joking matter, but there are a little tiny remnants of the world that we are still living in. Carson once was wearing a mask during his media availability.

It's mostly normal, not all the way normal. And it's a real thing here. I mean, not to get on a tangent, but it's a very real situation. The Colts are one of the least vaccinated teams in the league as money as 20 to 25 to 30 players. are unvaccinated. They've had some long discussions between players unvaxed and vaxed. And the ownership and the leadership of this team knows this team is too good to have a season derailed. Yeah.

By a COVID outbreak. And it's very real with Frank Rick not being here the first three or four days of camp. So Carson Went spoke today. Is that first time and how long you guys have gotten to talk to him? Yeah. We talked to him after he was traded. We talked to him at the end of the off season, which was late May, and this was a third time. He seemed like he's a really happy dude to be here. I was struck by a lot of the things that he said. He felt very comfortable and something he said that really jumped out.

I think two things. One, the amount of work he had done with his receivers, somebody asked him, how many times did you guys work out in the offseason down in Texas together? He couldn't even name it. He lost track. Because of how many times they had done that. Then I think that you never know from the outside how real stuff is. And his ability to connect with guys in Philadelphia was a storyline.

And the fact that he seems to consciously be making an effort to make those inroads with players on this roster has to be a good sign for the Colts because I think that was probably one of the questions before he got here. Do you get the sense that he is just happier in his life than he was in Philadelphia? Everything he said today about how it feels here and not just the conversation around the team and just what it is in the building and hearing from Jim Mersey last night. The training camp is surrounded by farmland. And he said that. I think his exact words were, this is my kind of place. And I don't want to speak to what he felt about his time in Philadelphia, but it does feel like he's more comfortable here.

And that, again, was something that came up from an outsider's perspective. He's from North Dakota. Is he going to be more comfortable in a place thing in Indianapolis? He seems to be. So this is the big question, right? This team, in a lot of ways, there are small changes. Nick Siriani's gone. Marcus Brady replaces him.

but for the most part, this roster is similar to what is the last year, and this was a playoff team. This Carson Wentz thing, it's almost as if nothing else matters. This is what matters. Him playing well and him resurrecting his career to an extent. It has to be the thing on your guys' mind pretty much every single day. That's what you're going to be watching with bated breath as training camp unfolds. Is that fair?

You nailed it. And you can run down the roster and there's so much to like in so many different spots. And I almost take it for granted. You're going to get great offensive line play. you've got Jonathan Taylor, who's basically ready to break out and become one of the best backs in the league. I like the skill position guys on the outside, probably more than most, but we saw Paris Campbell, who's back. Now, until he does it on Sundays, you don't know. I could run down the list on the defense. They've got Buckner. They got Leonard. They got Kenny Moore. That's all going to be fine.

Everything comes down to one guy. And I hate to do that in this league where there's 53 guys in the roster, but everything is going to come down to Wentz. And it could be really good or could be the other end of the spectrum. The variation, I think, is huge. I think you'll play fine. I think will be good. Reich has a track record of finding ways to get quarterbacks to play at their best, but you're right. It's a huge variable for a very good team. I really enjoyed my conversation today. I talked to Scott Malanovich and Marcus Brady, the quarterback coach and offensive coordinator, respectively, just about what they've been working on with Carson, because I do think that how they're planning to, quote, fix him, even though they wouldn't put it in those terms, is a huge question. Because

there's no denying. He was one of the worst quarterbacks in the league last year. Statistically, and the eye test. You watch it. It's ugly. And I was curious, where did you guys want to start? And I think the big thing both of them mentioned

is just cleaning up his footwork a little bit because they felt like he was a little bit wide last year. And it just was screwing up timing. He wasn't on time. And because his feet were a little bit wonky, it affected everything else. So just kind of getting on time has been the biggest thing they've worked on with him.

And that to me is interesting because when you're making him, a bet on a guy like that. And you're making a big bet the way that they have. You better have a plan for why he's going to look like a different guy than he was in Philadelphia last year. And from all accounts, it seems like they do have an idea of how they can tweak that kind of stuff. 100%. And it's not just upstairs, right? I remember talking to Tom House for a long time during the Andrew Luck shoulder saga about how you get this guy to have confidence again. He lost confidence. And he said, Zach, you throw with your legs, you don't throw with your arm. And Tom House,

knows infinitely more about the quarterback position than I do. But that's a huge thing. That was a huge thing in Lux comeback was the feet, was the footwork, was the timing, and you get confidence from your base. And if that's in sync, it's kind of what we talked about with Carson a minute ago. If that's in sync, the throw just comes naturally. You've made the throw a million times in your life. So his mechanics were bad in Philadelphia.

His footwork was bad. His timing was bad. His decision making was bad. They need to start very, I think you start simple. You start with the easy stuff. You start with the fundamentals. Even for a guy that's been in the least. for this long.

And Frank's really good about that, doing the little stuff, and he'll also scheme up plays that will build Carson's confidence. But I think the footwork stuff is something you can't overlook. And I think that this may seem, doesn't everyone do that? I think there are Mwanovich told me there two schools of thought. There are offenses that they want their got to get back there as fast as possible so he can kind of see everything. And you want to sit back there a little bit.

But with this team, everything is timed up. Everything is coordinated to when I hit this foot, I'm getting out. And they're learning how he moves, the timing of it, everything else. and that's going to be a process. Obviously, Wents is the biggest question, right? I think the two other questions, there's one question on each side of the ball that really sticks out to me.

Left tackle, let's leave that aside for now because Fisher will be back. Depending on when, whatever. You mentioned the past catchers. They didn't go out and get any big name guys this year, right? It is for the most part status quo. But when you watch it in practice and when you watch the different lineups that filter in and out,

it becomes really interesting because you have this flavor with Pascal in the slot versus Paris Campbell. Even seeing Paris Campbell out there is like, oh yeah. Like that is an aspect of their offense they didn't have. Like he's a stud at Ohio State. Yes. And has a skill set that they could not replicate without him.

And then, all right, what is Michael Pittman in year to? And Chris Ballard tried to sell me on this on this podcast a few weeks ago. And I'm starting to buy it. Like I do think even if there isn't that top tier guy, the flexibility, the versatility, even with the rookie tight end who was working with the ones a little bit today. whose name I cannot remember. Kyle and Granson. Kyle and Granson, even him working with the ones.

So you have Doyle and Granson and Moeally Cox. And it's just, I feel like nobody on this team might have more than 72 catches. But the pieces could complement each other to the point that if Carson Wentz is okay, then they could be okay offensively. When the Eagles won the Super Bowl, what did their offense look like? Yeah, it's a great point. Dual back, great offensive line, no stud receivers, but very good skill sets across the board. they had urge they had a great tight end this offense is a it's a production of what frank rike wants

now they everybody wants an alpha dog receiver right you want you want an adams you want a hooleo jones the courts are not going to get that because of the situation they're in they're not going to pay for that because those guys don't come in the market they're kind of just making the best of what they have they've got an older tyy hilden they've got campbell who they're still high on and i had another person in the organization telling me today that michael pitman's ready to break out Yeah. They have all these different complementary pieces, and the best player they have on offense is Frank Reich. I really believe that he schemes up these guys to their skill sets. You'll have Nahim Hines has a great day one week. You'll see another guy have a great day the next week. You'll have Pascal have a two touchdown day in Houston, something like that.

They're making the best of the situation when they don't have a game breaker. You can't just find those guys. And I do think that with Wentz, the biggest tweak is going to be, even if he is not as on time or is at, curator put it in the anticipation the same way the Rivers does. I think there could be a vertical aspect of this offense, especially with Campbellback, that they did not have last year. Even watching today, there's some shots a little bit further down the field because of how live Wenz's arm is. So what do you think this offense looks like? If you look back at the Reich era, do you think the 2018 version is the closest approximation to what this could look like in practice if things go well? Exactly. It's crazy to think about how different the offense has been every year.

It really has been. Four different quarterbacks, four very different skills. sets. The text message I got after the Wins trade became official was, we're going to do some fun stuff with this guy. And that means push the ball down the field. We know Reich wants to do that. They haven't been able to. With Rivers last year, it was all timing, anticipation. Death by a thousand cuts. Yeah. And he was, I loved watching it as a fan of football. And I know you're, tell me. You're leading the Phillip Rivers. But like, it was into, it was elite accuracy. And I think that's going to be hard for Colts fans to accept is Wence is not going to be as accurate as Rivers. But they're going to push the ball down the field.

and the first name I got was TY Hilton. Now, he's up there in age, but that's how he made his name in this league. You've got Speed with Campbell. You've got Heinz who can run the deep routes. They've done that before. But you've got Pittman, who's a big-bodied, easy target. You're going to see an offense that looked like it did in 18 at the end of the year when they won 10 of 11, really sound run game, took their shots. They used the play action well.

They couldn't do it with Reset because nobody trusted the arm. And they couldn't do it with Rivers because they didn't throw outside the numbers and he didn't throw deep very much. He also doesn't use play action. If you look back at his percentages over the last five years, they were consistently near the bottom of the league when he was in San Diego, in part because they lived in the shotgun, but also he just didn't like the way the game unfolded that way. You see that occasionally with veteran quarterbacks.

If you look at play action percentages over the last three, four, five years, Rivers and Ruffisberger consistently near the bottom of the league. Breeze was near the bottom of the league last year. Sometimes there are these guys that I don't want to turn my back to the defense. I want to be able to use my brain as a weapon. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that now they can really lean into this because the play action aspect of the offense in Philly, especially over the last couple years, it felt like they were a cover band trying to cover the Shanahan stuff. When Skangarello came in there and there was just so many cooks in the kitchen and it felt so disjointed.

And I think that that's the difference here. And this is what Scott Malano ever said to me, said, we're trying to have one voice to get to Carson. And I think that there were so many scattered voices. It's almost like cacophony in Philly the way that it isn't going to be here. And I think that if you're going to try to build the case for why you should be optimistic about Wenz, it's that singular voice and singular vision that they'll have here that they did not have in Philadelphia over the last couple years. It's Reich. It's right. It's Wright's voice. That's going to be the leading case. Marcus Brady, Milanovic. Another thing we saw today and we're going to see a lot more of is it's jarring how much more athletic he is than Philip Rivers.

Yes. Nothing against Rivers. The dude pulled him to the playoffs on one foot last year. but athletically, Carson offers you so much more. And that makes yards easier to get. We saw rollouts today. We saw bootlegs. We saw, like you said, some deep shots. It's going to be a more fun offense to watch for the fans. But I think, yeah, I think you're right.

It's going to be that symmetry that he can build between Reich and Wentz. If they can recapture what they had, that trust they had in 17 in Philly, I think four, five or six weeks in, that gets really start to get rolling on offense. On defense, just as an outside observer, first blush corner is the number one concern. Who's going to be that second outside cornerback? Rocky Sin was there today because I don't believe Xavier Rhodes practiced. COVID. There it is.

Would you say that is the number one thing they have to worry about positionally on this team right now? Because edge rusher, obviously, there's uncertainty with the younger guys, but at least they've addressed it in the offseason. That second outside corner spot, they're really just rolling with what they got. Marvell Tell, you're saying those guys. I'm going edge rush. Okay. Because you're putting a lot on Quidipa, and this kid could be really good, right? First round pick, easy pick, Chris Bauer said.

He's going to start from day one. Not a lot of the guys can do that. This guy looks like he can handle it. But on the other side, you're looking at Taekwan Lewis, who's a rotational player at best last year. In Deo, the second round pick, who they love, we're not going to see the real Deo this year. Those are Chris Bowler's words. So you can't win in this league without a pass rush.

And this team was like two or three plays away from beating the bills in Buffalo in the playoffs. if they had just gotten to Josh Allen one or two more times, if they had stayed on sides on a pass rush, they're playing the second round of the playoffs. And I know that sounds crazy because the bills were a really good team who made the AFC title game, but the reality is if you can't manufacture pass rush, you're just not going to win in this league.

And so they've just kind of been living at mediocrity in that area the last couple years. And that's my biggest concern on defense. And when you're not blitzing a lot, and when you're playing the way that they play, it makes it even more important. No, they just try to win one-on-ones. And Justin carried him last year,

but he's not here. Yeah, Justin Houston is my age. Like at a certain point, like you need a little bit more explosiveness there. Speaking of past rush and past protection, Braden Smith gets his extension today. I don't know the numbers. I've been here the whole time.

They're nice if you're great. Four for 72, about 18 a year. Not bad for a guy who was drafted to play guard. And it's interesting because now we're going into a different era of this Colts team, right? That 2018 draft, those are no longer draft hits. those are foundational expensive pieces because it's July 28th I assume the Darius Slender deal will be done before the season starts that's the goal so you have both of

those deals that will be signed Quentin Nelson is no longer cheap when you're the sixth overall pick and you're a guard you're making top of market money even before an extension does it feel like that does it feel like all right this is the team that was put together now it is crystallized let's see what can happen because that's what it feels like to me It is a, this is Chris Ballard's team. This is what he wants. Look at where he spent his money. His biggest contracts are Braden Smith.

Now they traded for Wins and that's a quarterback. Braden Smith, DeForest Buckner. The most money he's spent is O-line D-Line. That's where his passion is going to be. That's where his biggest draft picks have been. They're going to give Quentin a lot of money. And we're talking tackle money, right? How much can you spend on an offensive line?

We're about to find out. That's exactly right. Ryan Kelly is a very well-paid center. you're going to pay you paid Braden Smith. Eric Fisher, that might be a more than one year thing. And if he plays well this year, then you're going to pay a good left tackle, good left tackle money. We're going to find out how much of your salary cap you can give to one position group. But this is the Chris Ballard era.

This is what it's starting to look like. These guys are coming into their own. They're getting paid when you give them second contracts. The thing around here is this team hasn't hosted a playoff game since 2014. They've only won one since 2014. the owner's expectations are very high with this group. It feels like the goodwill or the grace period after the luck retirement is over. How long do you get when your quarterback retires two weeks before this?

I think it is the moment that you spend potentially multiple picks, including a first round pick on another quarterback. And they made the playoffs last year. Which if you take it in a vacuum, it's pretty impressive considering. Undeniably impressive. But when you're saying this is Chris Ballard's team, it's overnight. And this is Chris Ballard's quarterback. Yes.

signed off on the deal that's going to send a one and a three to Philly. You're going to pay him $98 million over four years unless something goes haywire. And this is Frank Reich's team too. Now, Frank Reich makes as much of the decisions on offense as Chris Ballard does. Believe me on that, he has a lot of say. This is the quarterback he wanted. He's putting his reputation on the line. This goes back to what we started the conversation with.

They put the chips in. They have pushed the chips into the middle. There's no denying that. And who is this on? The two people I go back to her. It's Frank Reich and it's Carson Wentz. Yeah. the stakes are high here.

I'm very much looking forward to it. Zach Kiefer, always good to talk to you, buddy. It's good to see you. It's good to be doing this. It's good to be back out in the world. I had a great time today, even if I lost eight pounds of sweat in 90 degree heat. It's football season.

It gets us all in shape. We are here. All right, buddy, good to talk to you. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. All right, next up, we have my second stop on the training camp tours with the Cleveland Browns.

I love talking to Zach Jackson about a team that everyone is very excited about. It is hard not to feel the expectations that are happening in Cleveland right now. Let's get to our talk with Zach. I am thrilled now to welcome the Athletics Browns writer, Zach Jackson. Zach, how are you doing?

I'm great. How are you? I'm good. Just to get people a little bit of an insight into what this job is like. We are currently in my car, in my rental car, in the parking lot outside of the Brown's facility. Part of the reason for this is that it's still a little bit weird with COVID protocols. We can't be inside the building in the workroom or anything like that. So there is a trailer where other people are working.

We're not going to record in there. This is the quietest only option. And we're essentially racing against time as the air conditioning is off. That's what we're doing right now. This is a luxurious job. Of all the Chevy Malibu's I've ever sat in, this is one of the nicer. But, no, Robert, I've covered this team for a long time. And I haven't been in that building since December of 19.

No, probably January of 20 because they cleaned house as they were doing annually there for a while. but then you go into the period you're not away, and then by the time the league years started, COVID had happened. So I've been here, I've been out here, but I haven't been in the building in a long time. And this is a team and a stop that I was really looking forward to because we were talking about this a little bit during practice and it came up over and over again

in questions to Baker and questions to J.C. Trudder today. This is a team that seemed constantly in flux for years. It was a new coach. It was a new quarterback. It was a new system. Even if the quarterback was the same, the coach was different. Even if the coach was the same, the system was different. It always felt like something was changing.

And now there's continuity here. There is a streamlined level of communication. And I think that so far, to me, at least in my only day here, is the theme of what this camp kind of feels like for this team. It is because two years ago when they had all the hype and, you know, there are a hundred reasons we could do a podcast series on how that went off the rails. But there was new, right? It was like, we're ready to go for it.

So we went and got OBJ. You know, we're not sure who's where on the O line. and that was part of the downfall. You know, Baker had played well for the second half of his rookie year, but he had only done it in that eight-game period. You know, and there was a new coach. And, you know, first thing Freddie did was get a new defensive coordinator. And so there's new pieces everywhere.

So now you have all the offense back. Odell is kind of the only new guy, right? You have a 1A running back in Kareem Hunt, who's a former rushing champion. Yeah. You know, tight end, I don't know, but David Nijoku really looks like a stuff. player. You know, Harrison Bryant would start or be the number two on a lot of teams, right? And there's even depth on the O line because of what they went through last year with some

minor injuries and some COVID. So it's remade on defense, but they're a lot more athletic. They're a lot more versatile. But you look at this offense. You look at the team in general. I mean, I'm standing out here, Robert, for years, years. You watch the other team run in the stadium and you think, oh, my gosh, that's what an NFL team looks like.

But you watch this team, Miles Garrett and Clowny. It's them standing next to each other is wild. Yes. I mean, it is. it really jumps out to you, one, just the physical stature. And it's a silly thing, like they get off the bus team, but this is a get off the bus team. And it was that to a certain extent when they had that hype. Like Miles Garrett was one of the reasons for that.

They had a lot of high draft picks, but it's everywhere now. And I think even if you look at the tight end room, I think that's a perfect example, right? You have Injoku as a former first-round pick is obviously very, very talented. It doesn't really panned out the way you'd hope. But the depths is insane. I mean, you have Harrison Bryan as you're a third guy there. And that's when you're looking at some teams and you see them out on the field, the holes become really apparent to you. It's like, oh, yeah, that guy is starting corner on this team.

The opposite is true. When you look at this team on the field, every single spot, there's another useful player behind the superstar level player. And I think with very few exceptions. And we talk about it all offseason, all off season. This is one of the best rosters in the league. Can this team push the chiefs in the AFC? Where do they fit in the pecking order of the entire league? and then you see them out on the field it's like oh shit that's right like this team has a ton of

dudes on it yeah like one of my lasting memories from that two years ago when there was all this hype and baker was riding high first day of camp i was hanging out and alonzo highsmith who was like second in charge right people know the name he's been around the NFL forever he was almost like he's hanging out where we are like admiring this talent that was coming out and you know it all was blown up five months later but i'm sitting here watching this and going you know what all the things you just mentioned but miles is is old or not He's in his fifth year. He's established, right?

There's no ceiling on him, but he's established. Like most of these guys are 25, 26. They played. And I just think it's so important through all the madness of last year. And we'll see, you know, who picks up where they left off. But they needed to win games in December to get in. They did. They had all the controversy and turmoil with the COVID stuff.

They went and won a playoff game. They went to Kansas City, and they left feeling ill because they didn't win. They could have. So there's a certain list of accomplishments, but they've, been there, they've been tested in together. So not only have the Browns been bad for so long, but they've never brought back anybody that's, you know, really done anything here except talk about it, quite frankly. It's interesting.

The one of the things that jumped out to me today is Baker is just putting hot sauce on the ball. I mean, the RPM's and the miles per hour as he's letting that thing rip, it almost feels intentional. It feels like he's really juiced up right now. And I think that to me is one thing that really jumps out is that he's in year two of this offense. Like this is a situation where he could take another step forward.

And that, to me, is, again, it's one of those things that kept coming back and back and back and back is, and I think Drew Petzing, their tight ends coach brought it up to me today, who we're going to talk to a little bit later. He said last year, it's like you're learning English. And this year, it's like you can learn sarcasm. And those language metaphors are consistent when you talk about offense. Case Keenham said a very similar thing to me today about conjugating verbs and everything else. But that's what it feels like.

It feels like this is the chance for the first time and so long for this. team to build on something rather than start at the foundation again. Well, there's no doubt that the way they handled Baker with his malpractice with all the change and all that. When you draft the guy number one, right, you want him to go. But to me, I always say this. Baker's body language, he tells you, right? He's an in-your-face kind of guy. He's a not-hide-anything kind of guy. And in 19, his body language sucked. People say his body sucked and his play sucked and it did. It wasn't all his fault, right? But last year, early in the year you saw some really bad games you saw some moments but late in the year the body language

was good he played at an excellent level from us in really even better than that in a couple spots and just two days you know not even full speed team drills i'm watching him his body language is good right he's he's getting after his teammates he's listening in on the huddle like last year he was probably listening in when cases reps because he didn't know the play yeah now he's saying i want to know because i want to look and he's he's he's demonstrative and it's like it's only two days But he just, the vibe around that is really good. And Baker is telling you with his body language that he feels like he's sitting on a big year. It feels, and I don't want to read too much into one quote,

but Tredder today when he was talking, he said that Baker's leadership has improved and his preparation has improved. And I think that Baker Mayfield has always been someone who's charismatic, like he's magnetic. Guys are attracted to him. They always have been. I remember Joel Botonio talked to me about that after his rookie year, when you can kind of feel that energy.

but it now feels like it's a more nuanced version of that leadership and it's something that is a little bit it's grounded it's grounded in things that are more real and replicable and guys are respecting the work he's putting in the guy that he is right now that's kind of the feeling that i've gotten based on some of the conversations that i've had yeah i totally agree i think you know he was always a leader it is his natural personality but you come in you're a young player right you have all this change and then especially in 19 when you don't play well and i go back to early last year i mean it was bad i He had a couple really bad games in the week six game at Pittsburgh the first throw of the game. I think he threw it right to make a Fitzpatrick. And it was over. And it was like, man, this is not going well. But outside of that, they had some circumstances why he didn't get that many opportunities. Chob went down, Teller went down. It wasn't until November that they reinvented themselves.

And then you saw a different guy. So yeah, I think there's less of a forced leadership. Yes. Less of an earned. Yes. And less of an obligation, right? I'm the quarterback, I'm this, they're going to pay me all this money, I have to go do this. Now I think it's like, hey, I'm in front of this huddle.

They've given me all these weapons. I'm going to go out and let it rip, and I'm going to get everybody in line because we know that pretty good isn't going to cut it. We have to be excellent this entire year. And the one thing, you talk about all the continuity, and it's obvious there's a ton of continuity. But the one area where there isn't is with Beckham. Like he was not the guy there at the end of the year when they were applying well. And I think the conversation around him has been a little bit misguided, right? this idea that they were better without him is truly insane to me on multiple levels.

And we'll talk about some of the specifics of that. But you told me that his, just how he's looked physically, has really jumped out to you. And I have heard that from multiple people. And what about just the way he looks, the way he's moving has been noticeable so far? So he comes out in minicamp and nobody really expects it, right? Because that's the second week of June. So we're talking like seven months off the surgery. He's wearing long sleeves.

He's going through the motions. He's not doing anything near. an explosive thing. He's Odell, right, but you don't see it. So earlier this week before they got started, we went out to his youth camp and you see him and he just looked more toned. He's just jogging around, giving people high fives and playing with the kids, but he's not wearing a brace. He's not doing anything. He's out here moving. Then he comes out on the first day of practice and he's letting it loose. It's probably not top speed because we've seen Odell's top speed. But I'm telling you, Robert, not one ounce of hesitation. You know, not one cut where he seems a little hesitant or,

you know, unsure of anything. Go. Stop, cut. Just looked like Odell going through practice. And it maybe wasn't as flashy. He's wearing the team colors, right? He's not jumping for the one-handers when he's wide open. But watching him move yesterday, like, there's no way that guy just had ACL surgery eight, nine months ago.

Like, he looks like he could play right this second. People noticed what he looked like this off-season physically in that building. And I heard about it. And I heard about how much it meant for him to go work out with Baker and Austin. and whether how much that means for what they could do this year. And I think that when I'm thinking about how Eldel fits into their offense, I think about it in two ways. At the end of last season, even if they were playing well offensively,

you could see how defensive structures changed because he wasn't in the game. They did not respect the level of athleticism and explosiveness that was on the field at any given time. There are promising players out there, right? Richard Higgins, Donovan People's Jones, useful young guys, they do not scare you. And the gravity of what you can do defensively changes because of that. You could see it in that Kansas City game.

They did not respect them. So that was what that offense looked like. I also think that when you're thinking about Beckham and the way he fits into this, you have to project what this year's offense is going to look like. Because there are aspects of this offense, and I think the Brown's offense 2.0 that we're going to see under Kevin Stefansky is going to have more stuff where you're getting the ball into guys' hands. Some of the things we see from the Titans with AJ Brown,

and where these glance routes and you're getting it to him on the move to create those yak opportunities. They did not exist in this offense last year. I have a hunch they're going to be a part of this offense in 2021. That is the guy who can run them. Without him, you can't do that stuff. So not only do we see the impact at the end of last year, I think if you're projecting it forward, he is a necessary piece in that projection. Yeah, we saw it in the Dallas game last year,

but that's the only time we saw it. And three weeks later, he was gone. And the offense, and I think then when you talk about kind of the individual stuff, The offense was still very much finding its way. And they thought, okay, you know what? Here's a Dallas defense. It seems pretty disorganized. Let's throw the ball to Odell and hand the ball to Odell and see we can make them more disorganized.

I can tell you this about Odell, or on the other side of the town the other day at his youth camp. And he hadn't spoken at least to a group in months. So he's given the answers and he's going deep. And that's Odell. I mean, he could go deep on what he had for lunch, right? But, you know, all of a sudden someone asks him something, I forget. And he shifts in the middle of his answer and says, you know what really bummed me out?

Like watching that Kansas City game knowing I could make one play, just one. And he's basically saying, I'm not trying to win an award for fastest rehab. I would have done that when I was younger. And I'm not saying that I'm going to come in and put up these huge numbers. I'm saying I can make one or two plays that can help us get to the next level. And anybody that argues that really is an idiot. And you look at some of the other positions, the secondary jumps out where Gritty Williams is working with the first team defense today.

and Newsom will probably be a part of that. And I think that you have to think about the long term and how much those guys are going to be in there, whatever. But you look at that group, it's John Johnson, it's Ronnie Harrison, it's Troy Hill. I mean, they're so, so deep there. They're so deep on the offensive line. What are the areas of concern on this team?

Because I think that in terms of roster talent, it's been a lot of rosy outlook stuff over the last few months here. What little tiny cracks maybe people on the outside not seeing or not thinking about enough? Well, it starts with the, defense. I mean, they've remade it, but it was pretty bad last year. And I still think it's thin in most spots. Now, you mentioned corner safety right now here going to August 1st. It's deep. And that's assuming that greedy and Delpit are going to be back, which we're still in the assumption state.

Everything checks off with their rehab, right? We haven't seen them tackle anybody. We haven't seen them play football. To me, the glaring one is defensive tackle. You know, they bring in Malik Jackson, who they really like, he's 31. They bring in Billings seen him play last year. He showed up. He was way overweight in the spring. So I love the thought of Clowny. And I think Clowny in Miles can wreck games. I think they can consistently wreak havoc. They got rid of Sheldon Richardson in doing that. Now, presumably they were cutting that money to do some extensions, which are necessary. But I just think like, how does it go wrong? Well, one significant injury on the defensive line, and all of a sudden you're really thin. Yeah, it's a house of cards. That spot is like, it's very

fragile in the way that they built. The linebacker group is significantly upgraded, but one of them is a rookie in JOK who's on the COVID list and is missing time. And like JOK is a super athlete and super rangy and they need that. But teams are going to run at him too. And he's 220 pounds. Right. So we'll see. So it's much better on paper.

But, you know, I'm concerned about the special teams. The Browns are going to have to win close games. I thought they were shaky at best last year. And that's not because Cody Park. He just went one of five out there. It's just in general kicking games in adventure. You don't have to tell me about Cody parking.

I know. I know. I don't. You don't have to tell me. You know, like I said, I don't expect the offense to roll the ball back out there and score 40 a game, but I think eventually they have that kind of talent. Defensively, I need to see it,

and I just worry in those certain areas that they're awfully thin. I just think that we forget sometimes. I know he won coach of the year, but just how high the degree of difficulty was for a coach to come in with no offseason, putting in a new system, everything else, and for them to have the offensive success that they did, what this looks like in the second stage,

and how they build on it, how they tweak it, I know that was a bit of emphasis for that staff this offseason. And what that looks like in practice with just a couple pieces changed offensively. What does Beckham give you? And then I think the other part of this is not only does Beckham give you a new element, by having Anthony Schwartz, it's an added element that O'Dell doesn't have to be. He doesn't have to be the speed guy anymore. And I think that's what's so interesting to me is that it's not a ton of changes,

but the changes that we're going to see, I think, could be transformative in a way that it's hard to understand right now. Absolutely. If Schwartz catches on, he can stretch the defense. Beckham gets back, even if it's not September 12th in Kansas City, he can stretch the defense. And I think Donovan People's Jones has superstar ability. I do. Off the charts. Off the charts. I mean, if you look at some of his combine testing numbers, it's absolutely crazy.

And I think that's the nice thing about this team is that there are those guys kind of waiting in the wings. When you look at some other rosters, independent of the starting 11, how many up-and-coming players do you have? Where can you go from here? And I think that's what's so encouraging about this team is it seems like there's a lot of guys. I mean, they're built for now. They're built for later. It's you try not to get too excited about it because I remember what that summer of 2019 was like, I worked at a site that had a week dedicated to the Browns.

It did not go very well. And so you try to pump the brakes a little tiny bit, but it gets hard to do. Yeah, they have options, right? They have depth. They have some polish, as we mentioned, and they just have talent. When I think of People's Jones, I think of the strangeness of life. last year's training camp, right? And then the rookies you just expect to be behind. No OTAs, no orientation, no anything. All of a sudden, report this day, take your tests and go out there.

A couple times, there was one pass in particular, but he did this on more than, more than really two or three days. I don't even know, Robert, that this pass was actually intended for him. It was so high and behind him. But he just kind of reaches up and grabs it. When you have a 50 inch vertical helps. Yeah. And it's like a baby deer just found his footing. And it's like, you know, we just watch this boring hot day at camp where everybody's wearing masks and nobody wants to be here anymore. Wait, did that just really happen? And then, you know, he was inactive

early in the year. He was not in the plans. They had a game where a guy gets hurt and pregame. Well, People's Jones comes in and make a play. The game where O'Dell goes down on the first offensive play, I believe that it was. He wasn't in the game plan. He makes the game winning touchdown catch. From there, his confidence

took off. And I just think now offseason to gather himself and off season to really know and to be in the plans. I mean, do not dismiss this guy. And I've been telling every one of my fantasy nerd friends draft because there are so many worst shots that you can take on greatness. I really think that. If you're betting on traits, it's not a bad bet to make.

All right, speaking of hot days at camp, we are melting in this car. So that's going to be all we got. Zach, thank you very much for the time. So good to catch up with you. So good to be here. I can't even tell you how nice it is to have these conversations in person again. Well, see it to Super Bowl. Yeah, there you go.

Talk to you soon, buddy. All right. To close it out today, this is the first conversation we're going to have with one of the coaches, players, whoever, at these various teams that I'm visiting. This chat is with Drew Petzing, who is the tight ends coach for the Browns. He's one of Kevin Stefansky's right hand guys, just somebody that I feel really fits the football curiosity tone that's happening right now in Cleveland. He was with Stefansky in Minnesota, where he was an offensive assistant and then the assistant quarterback's coach and eventually the receiver's. coach. I really enjoyed our conversation. I hope you guys do as well. The thing that interests me, essentially, now that this quote unquote offensive system or ones with the same DNA are so prevalent around the league, I think that we've seen enough reactions defensively where you need

to tweak stuff. And some of that happens naturally, right? Like your guys' version of it looks different than the Packers' version of it looks different than the Titans' version of it just by virtue of the players, right? And it's filtered. through personnel differently. But I think that if you look at the amount of quarters teams are playing on early downs, the amount of two-eye stuff, how wide the fronts get against you guys in order to cut off the boot stuff, it's tweaks are necessary.

So I kind of want to go back to the beginning of this off season after you guys had one year here in the system. Yep. What is the self-scouting process look like for you guys specifically? When does it start? What does it consist of? How do those conversations happen? Just talk me through that entire thing.

I think the real thing is it never stops. Okay. I mean, if you're doing your job well as coaches, you're self-scouting week one, week two, week three, you're very aware of your personnel, where you've had success, maybe where you've struggled. I mean, I think you go into every year, even, and I imagine teams that have been in the same system for five, 10, 15 years still do the same thing, where you go in with some ideas of what you think you're going to be good at and what you want to be good at. And as the season develops, certain guys show up, right? Like, even in, you know, you look at fantasy football, like,

The predictions aren't perfect. Yeah. And neither are ours. So we go in with a set of assumptions about who we want to be, what we're going to be good at, who we're playing. And then I think once a season starts, we're constantly evaluating, you know, where we right, where were we wrong, how can we get better here and how can we get worse there? I think the only difference in the off season is that's your sole focus. Yes. You know, during the season, there's, you still got to put a game plan together.

You still got to prep your players. And there's just a limited amount of time in the day. Whereas once the off season hits, those things go away. And all of the focus turns to, all right, what were we going? good at, how do we maintain that, or how do we complement that and benefit from it? And then where do we struggle? And can we get better there or do we need to get rid of that? Do you start with going back to watch all of your guys' stuff as a post-mortem? Or do you start with little projects about different teams? So I think as a staff, it's the sole, not the sole, the main focus is on us.

Okay. Right? It's, it's, because we don't know where we want to go until we know who we are. And sometimes in the thick of it, you can, you think one thing. And then when you really go back and watch it, you're like, okay, that wasn't 100% correct. What's the, in that vein? What do you think is the coolest thing you learned upon rewatching that maybe you wouldn't have thought in real time, but you're like, oh, man, that's interesting. Yeah, I think the one thing you lose track of, especially over the course of an entire season, how much you really did certain things. So, like, there would be certain run concepts, you know, that maybe I didn't feel like in my mind that we majored in. And all of a sudden, we go watch that cut up and we're there for like 25 minutes and there's 55 books.

And you're like, wow, we ran that a lot. And we're pretty good at it. And we're, and we're pretty good at it. or vice versa, there's things that in my mind, I'm like, this is who we are, we're really good. You pull up the cut up and it's like four plays. You're like, God, that didn't look good at all. Like, you know, because you practice a lot of things and not all that's going to make it to the game. So there's sometimes that disconnect of like what you've repped, not that you didn't rep it for the right reasons, but like situational ball is so important. Yeah.

So I use the example of the red zone. Like you absolutely have to practice the red zone ad nausea, right? Passes, runs the whole deal, competitive periods. But then in reality, how many plays? do you really get down there in a meaningful football game. You feel like you've had 100 reps on something, but you really haven't put it on tape that. Yeah.

And so that's always kind of, I think, an interesting part of the process for me as we get going in the office. Would you say that a couple of things that came up last year in the surprising element of, man, we ran this a lot more than I thought was more of kind of the gap scheme runs just because it was something you folded in kind of in real time as the season went? Yeah, 100%. And I think that can be anything.

Once you start to have success at something, you certainly are going to like naturally as a play caller. as an offense, like when I'm coming up with ideas, when other guys are coming up with ideas, those things are like, wow, that was pretty good. What could we build off of that? And all of a sudden, eight games in, you never thought you were going to be something. And you look on tape, you're like, wow, that is a big part of our identity because we're good at it.

We got to success doing it, and we've got to continue to build on. What was that process like? Because obviously you guys come when you're in Minnesota, it was pretty tried and true of that outside zone. Like, this is what we are. It was very pulled from that Kubiak-Shinnahan background. And then Bill's background is very different, and he can do some different things with it. What was the timeline on when you personally were like, oh, this could work. Like, this stuff with our

personnel can actually work, even if it at first blush isn't what we thought we'd major in. Yeah. And I think what you thought you measured in is definitely a combination of everyone in the room. So in Minnesota, that room was very much that tree with little exception. Yeah. Um, whereas here, you instantly from day one had different ideas, different philosophy, guys who had done something for a long time. And I think Bill Callahan said this was his, now I want to date him. But I think he said it was like his 40 third training. You know? So the guy's seen an immense amount of football. Yeah. Good feel for that type of stuff.

So I think right away I knew that there would be other elements to it. I just don't think we knew quite what it would be. And then I think maybe you look to that Cincinnati game where some of that stuff kind of really we had success running it. And then once you're good at something, you want to find different ways to do it and different ways to protect it and other ways to complement it. And I think we were able to do that throughout the course of the year. When you're thinking about how to fold stuff like that in, do you think about the weaknesses first? Because I think that's the problem. I know he's had a bad background in it, but, you know, Kevin's talked about this before

where if you don't know every aspect of it and you're just dabbling it, it's hard to know where the weaknesses are. So is that your first kind of reaction to it when you're trying something new? Like, I don't know if this goes wrong how to fix it. I think that's always a fear, right? And that's why you kind of, why people fall back on the things that they've done and that have been good for them. And, you know, I think there's definitely that hesitation. Anytime you try something to do, hey, this looks really good. But if they get this, like, do I know what's going to happen?

Yeah. Not necessarily. And so that's why the initial sample size of anything you do outside of who you are may be small. And then I think that's, okay, we've had success. We're getting good at it. How do we grow it? Knowing that every little piece is small and then grows as you continue to have success in it. And if you don't usually, it tends to shrivel up and disappear.

But it's great to have a guy like Bill with that experience where he can be like, well, no, these are the issues. I've done this enough over time to say like these are the things that concern me, whether it's personnel, scheme, or otherwise. So we feel a little bit more comfortable. putting that stuff out there because other people, someone in our room has seen the warts and can kind of tell you, hey, this is, this is what we need to be careful. It's one of the interesting parts about the staff in general is that Bill obviously has 43

training camps. Your background is even a little bit more varied. You don't come from that true the true Shanhan, Quebec thing because you were with a couple different staffs in Minnesota, right? And then obviously, Chad is from an entirely different offensive background. So I'm always fascinated by the makeup of coaching staffs, because where do these ideas come from, How can we diversify ourselves? And you guys, I think, almost practically and on purpose, have people from those different backgrounds in order to give you that wide swath of ideas. Yeah, I think that's a big part of this organizational philosophy, not just on the coaching side, but in all aspects of the organization. I think it's something that there's a lot of value in.

And I think the people that they look to hire and the people that they pursue believe in that and are open to that because it's not easy either. You can have too many ideas and too many different philosophies and people that don't get along. and that can lead to as many problems as having everyone from the same tree. So I think it's been, it's really fun to be a part of, but I think it speaks to the organization from the top down in terms of the way it's built and what we emphasize. You have a head coach who has a very curious football mind, and it feels like you do as well. And I'm sure that you guys have your interactions that are fun. How does that man?

Like logistically, how does it work? If you have an idea, do you knock on the door and walk in? Do you guys have set times that you meet and kind of throw stuff in the cauldron and circle it around? Like, how does it actually happen? It's probably a little bit different for everyone in the organization based on your relationship with that person. I think the nice part about this organization, as long as I've been in it over the last year, is that there is definitely that open door policy, whereas regardless of who it is in the

organization, if I have an idea or an opinion or a question, I feel very comfortable knocking on the door and proposing it or asking it or bringing it up and taking the feedback and moving on. And then there are certain people you're closer with where you're kicking in their door regardless of what's going on. And, you know, I think every relationship's a little bit different. But there's not a door in this entire building where I wouldn't feel comfortable being like, hey, you know, what are we thinking here? Why are we doing this?

Even on the defensive side of the ball, which obviously I have no impact on. You know, I work with Jeff Howard in Minnesota. We have a great defensive staff. Actually, Ben Bloom got me into coaching when I first got out of college. And so, like, I'll walk into those guys' offices after why maybe we see something in training. I'm like, hey, why are you doing this on defense or does this give you issues? And some of their feedback may take us in a direction offensive. that has nothing to do with what we're seeing on the field that day.

And I think ultimately that's what allows us to grow as an offense and a defense. And I'm sure they come into my office the same way. And I feel like I need to keep my door open so anyone in the organization to come in and say, scouts, defense coach, offense is going to say, hey, what if we did this? Or why, you know, because that's how I learned and how I thought about the game. So I try to warrant that and breathe that in the guys that I'm on the line. I'm curious, from the start of 2019 through the end of last season, what would you say are the biggest adjustments that defense is made on a blanket level to what you guys specifically want to do offensively?

It's so, you know, it's two different offenses, namely because it's two different. Sure. Yes. So like where your weaknesses were in Minnesota, they might not have been here in Cleveland. So it's hard to say this is a specific thing. Makes sense. What they were taking away there might have been different than what they were trying to do here. But I think that, you know, you hit on a bunch of the big.

things that I think you do see teams trying to take advantage of or at least limit, you know, a lot of the big plays. You know, obviously when you have two runners like we do here, that's going to be a focal point. We had a great runner in Minnesota as well. So it is so, it's so personnel-based. I think that's very hard to say, like, this is the thing. I think, and it also changes based on the personnel of the team you're playing. Yeah. Like you're going to get a different response from, you know, defenses that are similar in that sense.

So like the three-down Baltimore, Pittsburghs of the world, versus the four-down teams that you're going to play, like Minnesota this year, obviously is going to be a four-down team. And other teams like that are going to have different answers. And they're going to look to teams that are like them to see what's worked and try to replicate that. It's interesting because you guys have those teams in your division. And I think when I was talking to, I can't remember who it was.

It might have been John Benton before the Super Bowl that the Niners played in. We were talking about when they started going to more gap scheme runs. And it was when they played Pittsburgh. because their edge guys play so wide. So do you feel like the teams you guys played against last year almost accelerated the evolution you needed to make in your run game? Yeah, I think they definitely could have. And it probably goes twofold, right?

Like we start running more gaps games. They start tightening down. We need to run more wide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always that way. Give and take. And it's kind of the Eam and flow in the league as a whole, right? Mm-hmm.

Look at even how rosters are built or what defense is in vogue or what offense is really popular. It kind of comes and goes as everyone adjusts and you just hope you're on the front edge of any adjustment. I think that's the really important part. And the best way to do that is that open flow of ideas to say, all right, hey, we got to get somewhere. We got to get there quicker than everyone else.

Because this is such a, I mean, everyone in this league is so good at what they do that eventually everyone's going to figure it out and try to do it. So when you're thought, we're kind of stealing from other teams and you start that process in the offseason, how do you start that? Where do you go first? Do you feel like you have habits or places that you immediately start every year? Does it change? I think it's a little bit of both.

Like there are definitely, you know, having been in the league a little bit of time now, like there are offenses or coordinators or players that I respect or think do a really nice job. So you certainly like to glance at what they do. Can you give me one that you feel comfortable, Shang? Like you think about the offense that Sean McVey or Sean Payton run, Sean McVeys run over the last couple years has been, you know, some of the premier offense in the league over the last decade or so, right? So you're always going to kind of glance at those because they do good things.

They've obviously stayed ahead of the curve for a long period of time now. And then I think the other part is going to be dictated a little. bit by yourself, Scout, by what we just talked about, is saying, all right, if I want to be better here, someone in the league is probably doing it better because I wasn't as good. Who are those teams? How do I find those teams? All right, let's go look at what they did and see if something fits. Sometimes it does. Sometimes you watch it and you say, well, that's great, but it's not us. And that's why I think it's so interesting that so much of the league, such a large percentage now, I mean, if you wanted to list them off the top of your head, it's at least 10, right,

that have a shared DNA with what you guys do offensively. And it feels like because of that, There's such a library of stuff that is attached to the same roots of the tree. So you can be like, oh, I can pluck that. I can pluck that. It's probably easier than ever to find stuff that can fit your personnel and what you guys do offensively because there are so many offenses with the same sort of rhythms. Yeah. There's no doubt about that.

And then that poses the different problem of not trying to pick too much. Yep. Right. And so I think that's where the people that have found that balance have excelled over time in this league. They didn't get too out in front of themselves. They didn't fall too far behind. they had a great balance of plucking the right things at the right time, but knowing when to say,

hey, this is who we are, this is what we have, let's not go outside of ourselves. How quickly do you know something would work for your personnel? Can you tell that just by watching it a couple times on tape, or do you actually need to bring it out here before you know for certain this can be a part of what we want to do offensively? I think sometimes it depends on how outside the box it is. If it's in the realm of like, all right, I got a bunch of different reps on tape of other teams doing it or it seems very similar to something we've already did, the transition can be pretty seamless. Something could go in on a Thursday afternoon

and make it to game day on Sunday. If it's a little bit more unique or something that's more outside of who you are or what you've done before or you don't have a ton of evidence of it, kind of like you talked about earlier, then I think that's where you got to like, all right, hey, we need to put this in the lab.

We need to take a look at it, see what it looks like in training camp. We'll grow it maybe if it looks good, tweak it. So I think it depends a little bit on what it is. All right. Thank you so much to Drew. Really enjoyed that. Again, we're going to have a bunch of those hopefully coming to you guys over the next few weeks. My plan is to visit 16 different teams.

We won't have a coach or someone from each of those teams, but I'm hoping to have a half dozen or so at the very least by the time we get out of here and by the time the division preview start in early September. We'll be back on Tuesday. By then I will have visited, I believe, the bills, the jets, the bucks, and I will be in Miami with the Dolphins. It's hard to keep all of this stuff straight,

But we have tons more stuff, tons more stops coming to you guys here over the next week. Again, we'll be back Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday next week. Lindsay will be joining us. Writers from each of these spots, really excited about all of that. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I really appreciate it. Also, please subscribe to the athletic. We have so much great stuff.

Mike Sandoz's quarterback tiers is obviously up this week. Camp is here. You need a subscription to the site. to properly follow the NFL at this point in the calendar. So please go check that out. We'll be back on Tuesday. Enjoy your guys' weekend. Talk to you later.

This was the Athletic Football Show.