The Athletic Hockey Show - 10 lessons the NHL could learn from other sports leagues, Kyle Dubas doing it his way with Penguins and Bobby Baun's legend lives forever

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

The Wednesday Roundtable with Rob Pizzo from CBC Sports and Jesse Granger from the Athletic returns to discuss 10 lessons the NHL could learn from other sports leagues to grow the game, plus the guys welcome Rob Rossi from the Athletic to discuss a very active off-season in Pittsburgh and the work still to be done by Kyle Dubas and company, ahead of puck drop in October.The guys pay tribute to NHL legend Bobby Baun and past players who excelled on the ice, while dealing with serious injury and Rob and Jesse stick-tap Jeff Petry's return to Michigan, David Krejci and Paul Byron's careers and NHL '24 cover boy Cale Makar.Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshowGo to grammarly.com/go to download and learn more about GrammarlyGO.LinkedIn Jobs helps you find the qualified candidates you want to talk to, faster. Post your job for free at linkedin.com/nhlshow.To get 15% off go to mudwtr.com/hockeyshow to support the show and use code HOCKEYSHOW for 15% off Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday-ish roundtable edition. We haven't been here for a couple of weeks, actually enjoying a little bit of sunlight. But we are back. I'm Rob Piesel from CBC Sports, joined, as always, by Jesse Granger in Vegas. How are you, sir? I'm great.

Enjoying the summer, but excited to talk a little bit of hockey today. It's been a while. Yeah, I know. I was away last week, just went away with the family to a cottage. And I unplugged like I've never really unplugged before. I haven't done it in a while. And I just kind of said, you know, I just want to sit by the lake, have a couple of frosty beverages. And it was nice. But then you come back, you're like, I better, I better find out what happened in sports. You know, can you unplug? Can you really just turn it off? I've done it better this off season than any off season before. And I don't know why. Maybe it's because. I like, I don't know, like when I'm when I'm in the off season, I almost feel like I can't like if I unplug, I'm going to miss something. I think covering the cup final this year because I worked the longest and had like the shortest. I feel like I've given myself more of a permission to unplug a little more. I think. It's helped me and I've and I've really enjoyed it.

Me too. Me too. But now it's back to doing what we do when talking a little hockey. And we've joked many times about what we do in the summer when we start getting that. the itch do we watch old games do we do whatever and i'm not saying this following sentence because on my paycheck it says the athletic but the athletic's so good at coming up with creative ways to keep our hockey juices going when there are no games and that's one of the things i wanted to talk to you about there was a great piece from shana goleman and sod yusuf who we have on the show all the time um and i wanted to bring it up and i wanted us to really dissect this thing because i thought it was great. It was the first thing I read since coming off the

vacation. Ten lessons the NHL can learn from other professional sports leagues to grow the game. We kind of allude to a couple of these every now and again, but I thought it was just put together. So I want to go through each one. And I want you're both say whether we agree or disagree and give our thoughts because some I think are super, super smart and super kind of obvious.

And then others fall on the fence for me. You ready to go? Yep. All right. Number one, this comes from the NBA, but also NFL slash Major League Baseball. Number one, being more player-centric. Basically, the piece talks about hockey players, you know, often get it up, you know, this label of bland personalities. But some players are so afraid to do things that will paint them as selfish or not part of a team and individualistic. The NHL has to really push the player persona. Your thoughts on this one? I agree, and I don't know what the league can do other than, like, it's kind of the players have to kind of take control of this. And I kind of think they are. I don't know about you, but like I feel like the newest generation of players are leaning in toward, like, when I think of like Jack Hughes, Trevor Zegris, Austin Matthews a little bit, even Connor Bedard, like being around him at the draft, like he's got some personality. He hasn't even played a game yet. And he's already like willing. to show that a little bit. I think we're going in the right direction. I don't know how long it's

going to take to get there. It might be a little more slow than we want, but I do think we are kind of going there. I don't think it's a league thing. I think it's a team thing. I think we just have to stop stifling personality. And you mentioned Trevor Zegris. Okay, a good example of this. Scores the amazing, well, he doesn't score it, the Michigan pass in front that we talked about for forever. And you got guys like John Tortorella saying, that's not good for game and trying to stifle it, trying to stifle personality. It's more difficult in hockey because it's not the NBA. In the NBA, you've only got five guys pretty much on the court all the time for your team. They're not wearing any equipment. They stand out more. I get it. But we have to

stop breeding boring people. I don't think these bland personalities are what they were born with. I think a lot of the bland personalities are what they've been told their whole life. You have to be if you're an NHL hockey player. So I agree with that one wholeheartedly. Number two, create an NHL version of NFL Red Zone. Thoughts on this one? Love it. Love it. Because as a avid fantasy football player, I, like, I love the Red Zone channel.

Like, I cannot get enough of it. I am glued to it. It's locked on my TV. It's locked every Sunday. Yeah. I, there are a few things in life. I love more than NFL Red Zone on a Sunday afternoon. I love it.

So I don't want to jump too far ahead. the list, but I feel like these two kind of go together in terms of how do you do an NHL version of the NFL Red Zone? Well, number four on the list, more appointment watching games, more more like big games. I think hockey could do itself a huge favor by picking a night of the week. And I know in Canada, you've got the hockey night in Canada thing. In America, we have nothing like that. We need, there needs to be a night of the, that's what the NFL does better than any other sport in in america it's the most popular sport by far and i think the reason is because you know sunday afternoon what am i doing i'm sitting down i'm watching a shitload of football

it would be nice to have a friday night a wednesday night whatever night it is that when they make the schedule all the best games are on that night every week and everyone is like oh it's wednesday night what are we doing of course we're sitting down we're watching hockey there's five awesome games on they can schedule the matchups to make those the the the games everyone wants to watch and it would make a red zone channel more like a red zone esk channel more viable because that's what you need is all the games happening and everyone wanting to watch it and it's and like it has to become part of the routine i agree and i think it has to happen that way for it to work i actually hosted a radio show that was very a red zone channel as

every Saturday night, myself and John Shannon. It's a difficult sport to do it for. Football lends itself to it. Of course you're going to have some sort of, you know, long bomb 80-yard touchdown, but most times you know when a team is marching down the field and they're getting ready to score. In hockey, a power plays, that's how we used to kind of judge it. If a team got a power play, we'd go to that game. But it's a little more difficult, right?

And you have to be able to really get a flow of a game. But, I mean, more hockey. We're never going to say no to more hockey, which brings us to number three. And this is something I've been saying for so long because they do it in the playoffs, and I wish they did it more than the regular season. And that's to stagger the schedule. And staggering the schedule in terms of times. Like the NHL is planning a 16 game night on October 24th.

And the game start, go between 6 p.m. and 11 p.m. And each game starts 15 to 30 minutes apart. We see this in the playoffs. You're watching one game that starts at 7. all of a sudden it goes to the intermission, and what do you do? You bounce to the other game that started at 7.30. We can't have 8, 7 o'clock Eastern games and expect people to watch multiple. I watch two at once, and even that gets a little bit too much.

Yeah, it is brutal when your game goes to intermission and you go to, okay, let me turn on another game. And it's like, oh, all seven games are at intermission right now. It's not ideal. It would be nice. And not only that, but like, again, going back. back to the, if you've got a night with a bunch of big games, if you get lucky and four of them are real close games, you get to the watch the end of one, switch, watch the end of the next, watch the end of the next. You get to watch the best part of the game back to back to back to back.

It could be very good. It takes, again, this is hockey is not the best sport for this, but things have to go right, but it can definitely be better. If you're asking me what I rather have a staggered schedule or an NFL red zone style, I'm going staggered schedule. I just think it lends it so much better to bounce around. That would just be me. We mentioned the more appointment watching games. You talked about that. So we'll kind of jump over that.

The next one is an interesting one. It comes from the NBA. It's just number five, more flexibility with the salary cap in the piece. It says the NBA has a soft salary cap that creates more opportunities for teams to make moves by shifting things around. And here's why I agree with this.

We do this for a living, Jesse. And how many times before we do a show, are we like, what's that rule again with the cap? What's this? Well, they've got this. They've got this many. The cap is hard. The cap is really, it's not a matter of just, you're allowed to spend this much money. There are a lot of finer points. And you just got to make it a little bit simpler with a little more flexibility, in my opinion. I'm not a huge fan of the hard cap. I'm a fan of structure and maybe a softer cap. You? I totally agree. I think it, one, it does, it may, it allows me to write more about hockey and less about math, which I'm a big fan of.

covering a team that is usually pressed within a couple cents of the salary cap floor, or sorry, the salary cap ceiling. It's a nightmare. And it would be much better to say, oh, this big team, they want a left wing. What left wings fit on the ice with the players they have rather than let me do a math equation. And once I'm done with all this calculus,

I can figure out that these are the three left wings they can actually afford. It does that. And it also makes the league more fun. What teams want to spend? the teams that are good. What teams have no money to spend? All the teams that are good, it would be nice in the off season if the biggest teams that were already cat press could have, didn't have to worry about signing their own guys. They do bird gears in the NBA where if you've had a guy for a certain number, you get a, it doesn't count as much towards the cap, stuff like that.

I think more flexibility for the elite teams that are trying to add makes the league more fun. I've been saying it for years. I miss the days where guys would sit around. well, not just guys, anybody, hockey fans in general would sit around and argue this goalie's better than this goalie. This team's got better power play than this team, as opposed to constantly figuring out numbers. So I'm on board with that one. I'm also on board with number six. Implementing a designated player rule.

This comes from Major League Soccer where they do have structure, but it's a rule, a proposed rule where you maybe have two or three players that you can sign and it doesn't go against. the cap. And it's, you know, in soccer, they do it to get players like messy to come in Miami. But in hockey, you could do that even for your own talent or your, you know, one of the rules that they proposed was you get two exemptions, one for a player you drafted and one for a UFA where, okay, we're up against the cap, but we've got our UFA exemption. Hey, let's go out and get the best UFA available because we can. What do you think of this? I like it. Again, it just makes the offseason more entertaining.

Real quick, the messy thing is awesome, though. It's insane. I'm a soccer fan. I never watch MLS. It's, to be quite honest, hard to watch. I have never watched a full MLS game prior to this. Jumped on the Miami bandwagon, the day they signed Messi. I've watched all seven games.

It is unbelievable, this guy. Nine goals in seven games. He turned the worst team in America into unstoppable power. It's amazing. I think it's, and we're turning this into a soccer show. I think it's unfortunate because, you know,

in the past MLS have received, went out and got players, but way past their pride. Right. Messy is fresh off a World Cup. You know what I mean? I mean, he's 35, but he's,

or 36, however old he is, but he's so good. It doesn't matter. He's so good, right? So it's just, it's not,

you know, somebody who's well into their 40s and it's just a name that people are going to want to go see just because of their name. So yeah, But I mean, I would love to see, I'd love to, or someone like I said, the other exemption is if you drafted that player. And suddenly they're becoming a UFA or an RFA and you could sign them over and above what the cap would allow you to.

I think it works. Number seven, don't be hold into ways. Don't be holding to a way as it's always been. And this one, it's funny because they model this after Major League Baseball, which for so long was the opposite of that. Major League Baseball used to be so stubborn in, that's the way baseball's always been and we're not changing a damn thing. But now baseballs come to a point where they realize certain things need to be changed. This is the one I'm a little bit on the fence with. I think the NHL has done a pretty good job at being able to tinker with the game.

They've tinkered with rules. I mean, look at after the lockout. I mean, they pretty much changed the entire game. I think they've done a pretty good job in this department. I totally agree. And I think it's funny that we like it's, again, it's modeled after MLB. I think the NHL is way better at this than baseball is. I think baseball is probably the worst at it.

You mentioned all the drastic rule changes and going to the shootout and eliminating ties. Like that's all. I mean, what other sport has made change? Maybe football. You could argue football trying to make it more offensive and you can't touch the quarterback. They've changed a lot of rules. They've basically gotten rid of kickoffs. Hockey maybe hasn't been quite that drastic.

But I would say they're definitely second. And not just the drastic changes after the lockout, but they're constantly changing the size of goalie equipment to try to get more goals there. Like the NHL is trying. I'll give the league credit. We kind of talk a lot about things that they don't do. I think hockey is doing great in this category. All right.

Three more left. Number eight, implement more advanced replay technology. And this comes from the greatest replay sport. in all of sports, and that's tennis. I love tennis. I watch a lot of tennis. And when there's a challenge, the player raises his finger or her finger. The fans clap five seconds later, we see if the ball was in or not, and we continue playing.

The number one criticism of replay, especially in hockey, is it takes too damn long. If there's a way to do it, contact the Jetsons, contact whoever, put a chip in the the puck, do whatever you got to do, use technology. Yep, I totally agree. And you see it in soccer too, the VAR. It's like, the ref doesn't even have to look and slow it down. And it's like, they've got technology that literally tells him. He was either on side or he was not on side. It would be nice to, did that puck go in? And especially the ones where the goalie's covering it, it's underneath him or it's inside his glove. It's like, no, no, no, we don't even need a replay. Just did the puck cross the line. Yes, it did. Goal. Yeah, I understand there's some subjective calls that

You can't really do that with like goalie interference and everything else. Right. But I mean, I would completely be in favor of an automatic whistle for an offside. Yeah. If it's possible, you know, in the future where if a team's offside, the whistle, a loud whistle just gets blown by a machine and move on. The same way I've always wanted, I can't stand umpires in baseball, still being around. Right. We have technology to tell me what a strike in a ball is.

Come on. It's 2023. Let's move on. Number nine, lean in on data and promote it publicly. Data and research development has gone pretty far in hockey, but according to, you know, to Shana Yousef, it's still behind in other leagues. What do you think? Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, there's so much data we aren't getting.

Like I, like, I'll talk to Bruce Cassidy and he'll, like, I'll be mentioning some metrics. And he's like, well, the metrics we see. Can I see these metrics, Bruce? Like, come on. Share the good stuff with me. Come on. I want to write about this stuff. And like sites like sport logic that track like microsatts, entries, exits, things like that.

I would love more data. I love using data to tell the story. I'm all for. And with all the, they do have chips in the players. And they're getting their average mile per hour. They're getting how many feet they skate every game. I think there's a lot of. value there's a lot of valuable information that's already being tracked that we just don't get

to see it. It'd be great if we did get to see it. Gamblers would love it. That's one of the things. They want all the information you can get their hands on because it's harder in money. They're wagering there. Finally, number 10, allow fresh voices to make their imprint on the game. And that's not voices like you or me. That's voices behind the bench model a little more after the NFL. We've complained about the rotating door of coaches. in the past. So, you know, I'm on board with this one. We don't always have to look to the same 10 coaches. Let's try to find those hidden gems and coaches who bring maybe a bit of a different fresh young approach to the game. I totally agree. I think there should be more hiring of

assistance. And I think there should be more hiring of, you see it like in basketball and in football, the top college guys get hired. Like, why is the top college coach? not getting hired in the NHL. Why is the top junior coach not getting a chance in the NHL? I think we should see more of that. So there you have it. Ten ways that or ten lessons the NHL could learn from other professional sports leagues. And we just, guys, we just hit the tip of the iceberg,

head to the athletic to read it. Hat tip to Shana and Saad Youssef because that was just, I really, really enjoyed that piece and wanted to bring it up. One more thing before we get to break. And I should mention Rob Rossi is going to be joining us after the break to talk some Pittsburgh Penguins. They haven't been busy at all since Kyle Dubes. Man alive, that guy's got to be exhausted.

So we'll talk penguins after the break, but I do want to bring this up, former Leaf defenseman Bobby Bonn passing away at the age of 86. So sad day in hockey. But Jesse, you know, very few players are known for basically one thing. He's one of those players. And if you don't know the story,

1964 Stanley Cup final. They were taken on the Red Wings. They're facing elimination, down three, two in the series in game six. He was actually in the penalty box for two of Detroit's goals. So obviously, you know, why to redeem himself just a little bit. Blocks a Gordy Howe shot. It goes to take the next face off, says he hears a snap, gets taken off on a stretcher. They shoot him up with pain killers, tape up his leg, comes back out, scores the overtime winning goal.

And then the Leafs end up winning. in game seven, which he also played. After game seven, he decides, maybe I should get this thing X-rayed. What do you think? Oh, I don't know. Just plays on a broken leg. It's one of those hockey, you know,

folk lores that, you know, one of these days it's going to get to a point where it's like, Bobby Bond lost his leg. It still scored that goal. I mean, it's, it's been around forever. I've heard it since I was a kid. But I want to ask you,

is there a hockey player is tough story that you can think of that like, you know, somebody basically, should not have been playing hockey, did play hockey, and, you know, just amazed everyone that we're going to talk about from now until the end of time. Yeah. So I'm not going to go back very far. I'll actually go back to the last NHL game that was played. Game 5, Stanley Cup final. And we just learned via Mark Stone on, oh, what's his name, the punter from the NFL? I can't think of his name. He was just on his podcast. And Mark Stone revealed that he broke his

arm in game five against Florida. So this is a guy who was already playing, just coming back from his second back surgery in a calendar year. And he broke his arm in, or his wrist. And you see pictures, we saw pictures immediately after the cup where he's like on the golf course with the cup. And he had a huge brace on his left wrist. So now that explains it. He breaks his wrist in game five of the Stanley Cup. All he does after is score a hat trick in a nine to three. three blowout win to lift the Stanley Cup. I can't think of a more like storybook ending for the captain of the team. So this is not lower yet. We're just figuring this out in the last couple days, but I feel like that will go down 50 years from now in Las Vegas. Golden Knights fans will still be

talking about Mark Stone with the back, with the broken wrist, hat trick to win the Stanley Cup. Just crazy. Just crazy. I jot it down a few. I know this is a concussion, so this would not happen today, but when Paul Correa got knocked unconscious by Scott Stevens and he's literally like laying on the ice and you see his breath like fogging up his visor and he comes back to score the OT winner. I remember watching that thinking, yep, what is going on here? Like how is he alive, let alone scoring? Yep, that was the one that came to my mind like if I hit back to the past. That was the first thing that popped in my head. I can't forget, I know we talked about this is Matthew Kachuk too. Played with a broken sternum.

Your sternum is like everything. I don't know how he did that. The one that really sticks out to me, and I remember it when I was younger, and I did a feature on it for CBC Sports. I mean, Merrill Lemieux coming back from his last chemo session. Yep. Didn't tell anybody he was coming. Didn't tell anybody.

Just hops on a plane, comes to Philly of all places, like a place where, you know, they don't even like Santa Claus. And he comes to Philly. His teammates are like, Mario? The other team's like, are you kidding me? And he scores a goal. Goes on one of the greatest scoring runs ever, catches Pat LaFontaine to win the scoring title. That one blows my mind.

And I sent a text to some of my buddies about 10 minutes before the show. I said, am I missing any? And my friend who's a Montreal Canadiens fan, Matt says, Jacques Plont, taking a puck to the face. I'm like, ah, that's a pretty good one. I wasn't around for that one. I don't remember it as much. Yeah, I was. You tried to say I'm around.

I mean, that that shot invented a piece of equipment. And you're the holy guy, so I know you would like that one. But yeah, that's what Bobby Bond did is still incredible. And I think we're going to be talking about those. And now maybe Mark Stone for a lot of years to come. And in just a few minutes to come, we're going to speak to Rob Rossi. Pittsburgh Penguins just busy, busy, busy since Kyle Dubas took office there in Pittsburgh. We'll talk about that and more coming up.

So, Jesse, when Kyle Dubas and the Leafs parted ways, and he took off for Pittsburgh, I'm pretty sure our next guest knew that there was a good chance he was going to have plenty of material because of it. I don't know if he thought it'd be this much material so quick and so many things to talk about. But let's ask him. Rob Rossi from the athletic joining us,

who of course covers the Pittsburgh Penguins. How are you, Rob? Busy, gentlemen. Regrettably still this busy. in mid-August. I jest. I mean, it's better to have something to write about than trying to conjure up stuff. But the fact that there's still a possibility that penguins are going to be trying to sign somebody between now and training camp with training camp, what, five weeks away is it's not unusual.

But the type of players they could still add in terms of quality is. So yeah, I mean, you're going to be busy all summer. And we have, you know, we're going to start. We'll get to do this in a second because we do want to talk a little bit about that transition and how quick it's been and how much he's hit the ground running. If you want to use an old cliche, but you know we're starting Eric Carlson. There was lots of speculation for a while. You wrote about it before it happened. And in the end, you had three teams, a lot of moving parts.

And Eric Carlson is a Pittsburgh penguin. So you've had time to write about it, digest it, really take. it in. Your thoughts on the deal as it stands right now. I still legitimately have a hard time believing he got what he wanted, he being Dubus. Montreal, the third team that Dubus needed, got what it wanted. And San Jose got so little in return. At the news conference or the media session where Dubas was talking about it. He framed it as sort of like everybody getting what they wanted.

But from a Pittsburgh perspective, they got everything they wanted. And they didn't give up anything that really bothers them. They protected the top the pick for top 10 in the first round that they gave the San Jose.

And if they were getting Dubus, they had no use for Jeff Petrie. They were fine to give up Jan Ruda because that wasn't a great contract for them, even though he's still a pretty good player. It was sort of a luxury contract for them. And then Mikhail Granlin, they just didn't have a spot for him. And they didn't really have a spot for Casey to Smith because of what they had done in the

offseason. So even with eating some of... Petrie's contract, I think it's like 1.25 million for the next two years. Like, they got Eric Carlson. I mean, that's who they wanted. That's who they view is the guy that can kind of be, turn their big three into a big four and give them what they feel is their best possible chance at, you know, being the penguins again. So I, I, I, weeks later, I'm still mystified. I think you kind of answered this based on the way you answered that question.

But to me, if I would argue in the shark's favor, okay, what did they get? Well, they got rid of a contract that a year ago, we all said, was horrible. It was a terrible contract that was dragging them down to the depths. And yes, he had a fantastic season. And he's a Norris winning defenseman multiple times over and did it again this year. but how confident are you that that's the Eric Carlson, the Penguins are going to get? Because it's still a 33-year-old player with four years left on his deal at over $10 million a year. Like, that's a monster contract to take on.

It is, but they've also never had Crosby, Malkin, and Lattang count less against the cap in terms of percentage. Crosby's contract is up. He'll renegotiate an extension this summer. And I'm sure while he's going to, you know, still be costly, he's always going to do what's best positions them to compete. I don't care about the third and fourth years, if I'm the penguins. I mean, Sidney Crosby and Chris LaTang are 36, of Guinea-Malkins 37. The two centers are still playing at an extraordinarily high level. they have pretty good wingers when healthy.

Jake Gensel, who's only going to miss five games, according to Caldubus. We thought he might miss a couple months. Brian Rust had a down year last year. But honestly, the Penguins' top six was really good last year. And I actually would prefer Riley Smith. You could speak to that, Jesse, more than I could, in their top six, because I think he's a more versatile player, more of a consistent score. and a guy that's, you know, healthier

than what they had before. So they've extended their window for two years. And if Carlson is 70% of what he was last year, that's a huge win. Right. He makes the power play, which is the problem better. I mean, I'm not expecting him to be another 100 plus point scorer. I mean, that doesn't happen on defense.

But, I mean, Chris LaTang doesn't have. have to do everything on that back end now, which I think is going to make Chris LaTang an even better player. And Eric Carlson doesn't have to come here and worry about playing defense. They're like, dude, be Eric Carlson. There is no organization in the league whose DNA matches better with Eric Carlson. When the Penguins win, it is with skill and scoring. And to play that way, you need the puck. So whatever we think of Eric Carlson, and what might be a couple years from now. He still has skill.

He still has the scores. And he has the puck a lot. And I think they'll live with everything else. Gets the puck out of the zone up to those two guys you were just talking about, which is what you know, what you need to outscore the other team. But you mentioned Latang. I was under the impression that having a one-two punch at any position is always a good thing. Since this deal came down, I don't know Chris Latang.

I've never gotten to know him on a one-on-one basis. He doesn't strike me as somebody who would be upset to get someone like Eric Carlson to steal his spotlight or his minutes. You know him much better than we do. Is that a correct assessment? Isn't this a good thing for Latang on the ice, off the ice as a whole? I was told when this deal was first being discussed around the draft that Latang had already been spoken to about.

it, you know, signed off on it. As Kyle Dubas said, he, you know, he's not, he's not looking for, I think he said he's like, he's not looking for assurance, but he wants to include the big guys in, in a move this. I mean, Chris wants to win. I don't know what the narrative on him is outside of Pittsburgh. Inside of Pittsburgh, it gets maddening sometimes. I think they take for granted how great Chris LaTang has been. Chris LaTang came off one of the most hellacious years I've ever known a player to have.

And he's had a few. Within five weeks, he had a second stroke and lost his father and had another injury. I would have shut down. He's still played, not at the highest level, but he still played. He's going to come back and just be able to play hockey this year. And now he's going to have a guy that, can take the pressure of running the power play off Chris Latang. I'm assuming Latang is going to move to the left wall.

And I think being that he has a really good shot pass option as a right-hander on that side, I think that's going to open up their power play in ways they haven't had since Phil Kessel, who was also a right shot had on that side. I think the Penguin still view Latang. I mean, I know the Penguins still view Latang is their number. one defenseman. If there is a defensive situation that they need addressed in late in the game, it's going to be him, not Carlson on the ice. But also, when they needed a goal late in games, they also had to have Chris on the ice at all time, which meant if Gennie Malkin didn't get a

defenseman who could move from the puck. Now, Gennie Malkins line, but Malkin specifically is going to get Eric Carlson. And to be honest, maybe Carlson is going to double shift because he might be the best offensive producer on anybody that's on the third or fourth line. So I think it's going to take a lot of pressure off with Tang. I guess, yeah, maybe two alpha dogs. But you know what? Again, who better than Pittsburgh has had two alpha dogs and made it work? They've, they've had Crosby and Moken for 17 years and there hasn't been one problem. So yeah, it's, it's fun. I guess it's fun to talk about, but I think it's sort of an invented problem. Rob, you mentioned you kind of like alluded to it earlier, the potential moves that they can make from here because this is a,

this is dragging late into the offseason for a team. Like every other team in the league basically has had their team complete for a few months now. Like, what do you, what do you think they can add? What do you think they will add? Like, what do you think the future, uh, holds for this team before, before camp gets gone? From my understanding, their hope is that Tomas Tatar does not find a multi-year deal that is too expensive between now and training camp that they could bring him on a one year, you know, maybe one, maybe one and a half million dollar deal. He slots into the second line left wing while Gensel is out because Riley Smith will go to the first line. But when Gensel gets back, then you could have Gensel with Crosby, Smith with Malkin, and then Tatar becomes

basically your best player in the bottom six and a real offensive driver in the bottom six. And, you know, again, a player you know well, Jesse. I think there are a lot of good players left unsigned that are going to go to camps on PTOs. But to me, in terms of a guy that can be a stylistic fit, fill a need, bring you a goal scoring and playmaking capability that is middle six. If you could anchor him in long term for your bottom six, suddenly I think the penguins then become a really formidable forward group, as opposed to just a team with a dominant top six and you hope you're getting some offense.

His addition alone would be something that deepens their sort of forwards. seven through 21 immensely because he's just, he would be so far in a way better than everybody else that they have. If not him, I think they'll maybe give somebody a PTO. I don't know if it'll be a guy like Zach Preezy or what, but they'll find somebody I think, Kyle Dubes alluded like,

hey, there's a lot of good players left. There's going to be probably, we'd be open to a guy on a PTO if we can't sign somebody. And if we need to get under waivers, we'll put somebody on, or if we need to get under the capital, put somebody on waivers. He basically is like, we're weaponizing waivers to get cap compliant. So I talked too long, so I apologize. Let me just say, the way he approaches roster construction

is so night and day compared to the way the previous regime did. And just like, he looks at waivers as an ends do a mean, not just as something you do to fill a spot, which is the way a GM in the modern era should look at things. Penguins might finally have a GM as skilled as some of their top players, not without flaws. There's being age, his being that, you know, his teams haven't won in the playoffs enough.

But even that, he's built this penguin team a little differently than he's built the Toronto teams. There's more diversification of the top assets. And as great as Matthews and Marner are, And they ain't ever come close to doing McCrosby and Malkin doing the playoffs. Well, let's talk about Kyle for a bit here because, you know, I'm based just outside of Toronto. So trust me, I've seen a Kyle Dubas interview or two in my lifetime.

But I was reading your piece in the one line that really jumped out is you said, I can't recall how many times Dubus has taken questions from the local media since joining the Penguins, but I could affirm that every time I've been awestruck by his persona. And I always felt that way. I've always been a Dubus fan. I always enjoy why even press conferences, which the three of us have been to about a million of them, they're usually pretty boring. I always found myself intrigued by Kyle Dubus.

Is that a new feeling that seems to have been brought not only to the franchise, a new field that since Dubus has got there, but also just among the media. I mean, when he walks away from a scrum, do you find yourself speaking with fellow colleagues saying, oh, this is such a breath of fresh air? you know in media scrums i don't always play nice with our colleagues so i'm a little territorial like it's usually josh oi and me but uh so to give you an idea of the penguins media situation is i usually am to the side of the room near a wall and i'm usually standing um there's probably some psychological reasons for that but i don't know but

traditionally whether it's a player or coach as they're leaving the podium after they're done, I like to have a question that has nothing to do with hockey ready for them, just to kind of show them. Ron Hextall was just, he would have none of that. Jim Rutherford would have all of it. Like, he would answer the question and then take you outside the room and want to continue the conversation. You know, even if it's like, hey, did you see Rory Makoroy's final.

around the other day. Jim's a big golf fan, right? Ray Shiro got annoyed by it. Dubus smiles, gives a very short answer, says, thank you, Rob, and leaves. The reason I bring this up is the man's a polite assassin. Okay. Like, he's, he's, if you look at what he's done, right, he's meticulous, he's ultra-prepared. Everybody I've talked to in the organization has said something along the lines of it's been night and day in terms of the way he communicates, the tone in which he communicates, and also the information he communicates. He is able to tell you exactly what he wants you to know and nothing more or less. And that's the way he deals with the media. He gives us exactly what he wants us to know and makes it seem like he's giving us a lot. And then you go back and

listen and go, oh, I see what he did there. It reminds me a lot of Sidney Crosby. You know, I've been covering Sid his entire career. Sid talks all the time and always answers. And then you go back and listen and go, the guy didn't say anything, you know. Now, Dubus isn't quite that bad, but like, Dubus delivers messages through the media. He answers questions with intention. You get the sense that he almost has this sort of whiteboard. in his head that is always sort of being adjusted for any situation. But you also realize just by seeing him do these deals, and I've talked with some players who have spoken with him, talked with agents who have dealt with him, they really like

dealing with him, but he knows what he wants and he usually goes and gets it or close to it. So I like to say he's like a, he's an intriguing character. His persona is fascinating, but I think his roots, he's a killer. He's just a really, really, he's one of those killers where you're like, I don't know if I ever saw this coming. Like he's the, you know, when I say killer, I mean, like as a, he gets what he wants. And you, that's what I meant by awestruck. Like you're watching this guy that's, um, the comparison of

I'll make it to, and this is going to dated reference is, if you've ever seen a Mick Jagger interview, there is a complete sincere lack of sincerity. And I think Dubis is sincere in that he's not being sincere in terms of giving you the information you think you're getting. God, he sounds like a puzzle, just like you're trying to figure it out all times. All that being said, Rob, are you surprised? or not surprised that he just stripped that interim tag off his job description. It says, I'm going to do it myself because there's been a lot of speculation in Toronto that one of the reasons it didn't work out is he wanted full and complete control and they just were not willing to give it to it.

So I can't speak to the Toronto stuff. I've heard and read what everybody else has heard and read. He hasn't discussed it. I'd love to, but, you know, again, he's only going to tell me what he wants to tell me, right? My view on it from day one was he was going to be the GM. They gave Kyle Dubus a seven-year contract. They're paying him $5 million a year, and he has limited use of the private jet. He's in charge.

I never thought Kyle Dubus wanted to put a GM in the position that he may have been in in Toronto, where you don't have full autonomy. me. I think he felt like I'd rather have assistant GMs or associate GMs than name a GM who was basically in the situation I was in in Toronto, if that's what was the case in Toronto. But also like, yeah, what I don't know if the title matters. I mean, again, he's calling the shots. It's clear that he's in control. I think the title of president of. of hockey operations allows him maybe down the road, maybe during the rebuild era, you know, maybe he considers then hiring a GM and he oversees sort of the direction of the franchise

while the GM, you know, gets an opportunity. But even then, you know, he's, he's 37. I mean, I said, I said, I was talking to somebody with ownership that Dave was hired and they were like, you know, we gave him this deal. But like, we're, basically planning on him being here at least a decade. So I think, I think this is a long-term marriage in terms of the intention. I'm curious what you think about that next phase. Like, like it seems like you, you think this is a good marriage in terms of this last window for them to try to win another championship. And Dubus has kind of come in and brought some of his own things, change some things. What do you think about the match with him in Pittsburgh beyond

the next couple of years? I think he's in a perfect situation, right? He gets to take a crack at the big goal this year and next. And if it doesn't work, he can very easily say, you know what, we tried. We owed these guys a shot. We gave it to them. It didn't work. I think then he has the opportunity to have a conversation with Crosby, Malk, and Letang, and Carlson and say, look, this isn't going to be a retooling. This is going to be a rebuild. We hope it doesn't last long. If you still want to be a part of it, we'd love to have you, but the guys around you aren't going to be veterans. And if you don't want to be a part of it, especially with those big three, Crosby, Malkin, and Lattang, if you see that this isn't

something you want, we'll send you where you want to go within reason, basically. We'll do right by you. Personally, I think all three of those guys are going to be, you know what, we're here, we love it here, we were here for the highs, we want to leave this thing in a good spot. So I don't foresee either of them, any of them ever playing anywhere else in the NHL. But even if that doesn't happen, I think Dubus then gets sort of the clearance from not only the organization, but the fans to do some drastic things, you know, because we haven't seen a run like this in the cap era. I mean, they had made the playoffs 16 years in a row in a sport where that's not supposed to happen. And it was only through gross mismanagement that it didn't happen by just a point, right?

Like, I mean, if you've read the chaos story that Josh and I put together, and I don't even know when it seems like years ago, but if you go to the athletic and just search chaos and penguins, you'll find it. Like, once you read that, you'll probably come away more impressed that they got near the playoffs than just missed. But, like, we haven't seen this run. We haven't seen a group age as well as these guys have. So what I think about it, Jesse, is I don't know because. each and every year, I think this is the last year.

Right. When it was the last year, last year, they go out and have a type of offseason where I go, they might have a couple more years left. Does that mean they have a couple more years less as a cup favorite?

No. But I can see the needle hole through which they're trying to thread, and it's certainly a bigger hole to thread through now than it was in May. And if a penguin thing, Fans are upset when a rebuild happens. You know what?

Screw them. They've been spoiled brats. I mean, in a great way. I mean, but I mean, like, what do Pittsburgh fans have to care of, like, complain about? I mean, there's been no more successful or entertaining franchise in the NHL over the last 35 years. That's not me being a Pittsburgh native who covers the team. Like, Nariolamu, Yarr Yager, Sidney Crosby, Evgeny, Eugenie. Malkin, Paul Coffey, now Eric Carlson, Larry Murphy, Alex Kovalev, Rick Tocke, I mean,

Mark Andre Fleary going into the Hall of Fame. Kevin Stevens. Going into the Hall of Fame. I mean, like, five Stanley Cup championships and six appearances in the final and, what is it, 27 playoff appearances since 1991. You're a mid-market franchise. You're doing that. if you have a few bad years, shut up.

That's how the rest of the world lives. I can't think of a better way to end it by our guest telling every fan who doesn't want to rebuild. You shut up. Rob, I know you're not going to do this because you're far too busy with this team, but try to get a little bit of a break in this off season. I am going to get in early September. There it is. Not even the penguins dissolving is going to affect me to go through this day.

Thanks for doing this. this Rob we appreciate it guys I'll talk to you Rob Rossi from the athletic having a blast covered this Penn's team rapid fire coming up after the break all right my favorite time of the show and yours rapid fire we've got five topics jesse to get through uh Jeff Petrie traded to Detroit he's been just bounced around a lot in this off season but heading

to Detroit uh Montreal gets Gustav Lidstrom and the 2025 conditional fourth round pick in the deal. The Canadians are going to retain 50% of that salary. But the interesting angle to this one, you remember his dad, Dan Petrie, played for the Detroit Tigers. War number 46. What number is Jeff Petrie going to wear in Detroit?

Number 46. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Cool story. I like the move for Detroit. I think this is a young team that's trying to take the next step. And Petrie, he's getting old. He's going to be 36 this year. but he's played really well.

I mean, two years ago in the shortened season, he was awesome for Montreal. I thought he should have been a Norris contender. If he can give him even a sliver of that, along with the young guys they've got on the blue line. I like the move for the Red Wings. Rapid Fire topic number two. David Crayche, retiring.

The Bruins just retirement. Just continues first Bergeron. Now Crayche finishes with 786 points in 1,032 regular season games, ninth on the Bruins all-time scoring list. This is not good if you're a Bruins fan. No, you lose the two superstar centers that have been there for a long, long time, both of them for decades.

It's going to look, it's going to be weird watching the Bruins and not having Burjura and Gradyy up the middle. I'm not sure what that team is going to look like. It's going to be interesting. I mean, he had a big hand in Pasturac season two, right? I mean, it's, it's, if you're a Bruins fan, you're coming up the best regular season ever and then falling flat on your face in the playoffs and now the bad news just continues to roll in speaking of retirements paul byron kind of announced you know can't you

just let it slip out that he is going to retire he spent all the last season on the lTIR but the hab said they are going to talk to him about a possible off ice roll yeah um i don't know what that means exactly but yeah should be hopefully he can continue his hockey career career. You always hate to see guys that retire on LTIR. It's because they just couldn't get back out there. It happens too often.

Rapid Fire topic number four. Kill McCar. We pump his tires nonstop and rightfully so on this show. In another accolade, he's going to be on the cover of NHL 24. The first time an avalanche player has been on the cover since Peter Forsberg in 1998.

Oh, I was eight. I remember it well. Peter Forsberg was my favorite skater growing up. I remember that cover. Man, that's nostalgia mentioning that one. But yeah, Kail McCar, it should be, he's the perfect player to put on there because he is like a video game out there on the ice. I didn't buy last year's. I think I might have to get this one. I'm not a gamer at all. Not even, no, I was a game. Blades of steel and ice hockey for Nintendo, but not in the NHLs. I only play the golf game and the hockey game. That's like literally the only video games I own, but I play them every once in a while.

There's no hockey curse, all right? I don't know the NFL curse. Everybody who got put on there would get hers. Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. And finally, I had said months ago, I don't want to talk about a coyote's arena until it's built because I was sick and tired of it, but it's on our lineup. So let's talk about it because ownership have executed a letter of intent to purchase

some land in Northwest Mesa to Mesa, yeah, to potentially build a new sports arena and entertainment district for the franchise. But apparently they're going to be issuing a few of these letters to make sure they get some land. Like I said, call me when the arena is built. How about you? Yeah. The one thing that was interesting is the word privately funded in there.

You don't see that very often nowadays. Most hockey teams, most sports teams are holding cities hostage, making them, forcing them to give a millions of dollars to build it. It'd be interesting to see a team actually build their, a billionaire actually build his own stadium for once. What a concept. Well, they basically said they didn't want it. So, I mean, if you want to stay in the area, you got no choice. You got to just come up with the cash yourself.

So there you have it. Rapid Fire. I don't see offseason, Jesse. We talked to Rossi about being busy. You got anything on the stove we should know about? Yeah, I'm going to go on vacation here in the next couple weeks. but I do have a Golden Knights piece coming out, a couple Golden Knights pieces coming out before then, and doing some goalie stuff. It was a fun thing to write the five best contracts in the NHL at goalie,

kind of the guys that are given the best return on value. So that's out there. And then I've got a couple Golden Knights pieces coming up. Google Jacques Plotz is very important. I know you weren't around for that, but you should probably take a look at him. His salary was probably a great deal. I'm going to guess he was not making very much money. I think he was a steal. Thanks, as always. I want to remind everybody out there, if you want to take a look at our ugly bugs,

head to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com slash the athletic hockey show. And the athletic hockey show returns on Monday. Max Boltman and Corey Promin have the Prospect Series pipeline rankings all next week on the athletic. We are going to be gone for the next two weeks. We are going to see you in September. Enjoy the sunlight.

We'll talk to you.