The Athletic Hockey Show - A puzzling goalie decision in Las Vegas, Alex Ovechkin scores 50th goal, NHL Global Series to return

Episode Date: April 21, 2022

Ian and Sean kick off the show with thoughts on Pete DeBoer pulling Robin Lehner after the first period of Wednesday's Golden Knights-Capitals game. Speaking of the Capitals, Ovi passed the 50-goal mark for the 9th time in his career, did this time feel understated? Also, the NHL's announcement that the Global Series will return.Next in "Granger Things", Jesse Granger shares his thoughts on the goalie controversy, and Evgenii Dadonov's production following that voided trade. Sean and Ian wrap up with some listener questions in the mailbag, and discuss games with nicknames in "This Week in Hockey History"Have a question for Ian and Sean? Email [e-mail] or leave a VM [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It is your Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendez, Sean McIndoo. Down goes proud with you for the next hour or so. We're actually really excited to have a conversation with Jesse Granger when he drops by for Granger things because, boy, the Vegas Golden Knights are such a compelling story. The goaltending carousel that played out this week, we want to pick Jesse's brain on that.

So we're going to talk to him. We're going to talk a little bit about the NHL announcing the return to global games overseas in the Czech Republic, Finland, some really cool pieces in the athletic this week by our colleagues, Pierre LeBron and Mark Lazarus. We want to hit on those. We'll do, as always, the mailbag where we got some old-school, down-goes brown suspension flow chart stuff to get to as it pertains to Chris

Pronger a little this week in hockey history. So, yeah, we got a lot to get to. And I'm telling you, Sean, I'm excited for Granger here because when he comes up, because this is, are the Vegas Golden Knights not the most interesting, compelling team in hockey right now? Absolutely, absolutely. I'll go you one further.

And let me throw this out there. You tell me if I'm right or wrong. I think that game last night was the most fascinating game of the year so far. Maybe not the most entertaining. Like we've seen some crazy games and, you know, big comebacks in that. sort of thing. That might be just to me the most interesting game that we have seen, not just because of how crucially important it was, the fact that it was two pretty good teams. You know, the crowd was nuts. You had that weird penalty, non-penalty with Ovechkin.

Yep. And the goaltending situation, I'm racking my brain. Like, I know I'm the obscure history guy. I don't know that I've ever seen a goalie pulled for giving up one goal before. I honestly cannot off the time. I'm sure it's happened. Do you have one? Yeah, okay. And correct me if I'm wrong. Brian Elliott.

And now was he a, was it, was it a playoff game where Brian Elliott like, and was it Calgary where like people weren't sure about this guy and it was like jittery going into the game and he gave up a soft one and he got the hook right away? Okay. I don't, I don't remember that. Okay. I'll look it up. But I'm sure it's happened.

But, and, you know, people are, please reach out if you, if your team's done it and you remember it. But for people who don't know or didn't see the game, they go in, there's all this background drama with Pete DeBore kind of, I don't want to say he's throwing Robin Lanner under the bus. But he's kind of throwing Robin Lanner under the bus a little bit. Like he's, he's making some, he's certainly not trying to pump his tires, so to speak. So, you know, and a lot of people are thinking, okay, you know, he's going to go to Logan Thompson, right? It's must win. You ride the hot hand if this is the guy the coach believes in. And then we find out, no, they're going to start Robin Lanner.

And Robin Lanner goes out and he gives up one goal in the first period relatively early on. Does not get pulled. It's five or six minutes in Washington scores. It's not a great goal, but it's not awful. It's not like he got beat from center ice. he ends up making 12 saves on 13 shots and then in the second period it's Logan Thompson coming out

and I at the time I just assumed like okay Leonard's clearly hurt he's tweaked something you know maybe maybe that explains it maybe that is still the case but I from all accounts it was a coach's decision he just decided to switch goalies

in going into the second period pull a guy who I mean that's A 923 save percentage has got to be some sort of record for a goalie pulled on a coach's decision. Well, we got to find out Mike Keenan probably did it at some point. But you're right. So I did look it up. I did look it up. And I was right.

Brian Elliott, 2017 playoffs against Nashville, Calgary, Nashville, Game 4. Remember, there was a big, the whole storyline was he looked shaky. He gives up one goal six minutes into the game and gets pulled. after one goal. And then Chad Johnson came in in relief. But that was in-game one bad goal. Like you said, Leonard got pulled in the intermission. And then got pulled.

And Leonard gets pulled in the intermission. Yeah. And then Logan Thompson comes in and gives up a goal almost right away. Now, he gives up a goal to Alexander Ovechkin. I mean, what are you going to do? But I mean, all is well that ends well, I guess they got the two points. But I've never seen that before. I have never seen, I don't know that I've ever, I can even ever remember seeing a goal to get pulled at intermission after playing 14 minutes without giving up a goal.

Like occasionally you will see a team, you know, the goal that gives up the third goal. It's a bad one with a minute left and, you know, the coaches, we're going to get to intermission. We'll make the change then. I wonder if something happened in the room was something said, you know, is there something else going on here? because it does not make sense to me. And it's interesting to me because on an old show that I used to do with Dave Loza, we used to talk about how Dave had a theory that NHL coaches should treat must-win games the same way that baseball managers treat a game seven.

You ever seen a game seven in a baseball play-up series or a winner-take-all game? All the rules for starting pitchers go out the window. It's all hands on deck. They will go to the bullpen early. they will bring back starters on short rest. It's just, and as soon as a pitcher looks even a little bit shaky, he's out and the next guy's in. Obviously, you don't have bullpins in hockey, but Dave would always argue that if a goalie looks like he's fighting it, and it's a must-win game, get him out, get the new guy in.

I guess Pete Tabor was apparently a listener to that show, and apparently was a Dave Lozo fan, because that's exactly what he did. But he did it in such a bizarre way. Again, 13 shots against. one goal and he gets pulled. And Pete DeBore after the game made comments along the lines of saying that, you know, he felt like the team played was playing really well. And then that the goal that they gave up kind of deflated them.

So he was trying to, you know, shake things up a little bit. And sometimes coaches will say, look, I didn't pull the goal because he was playing bad. I did it to try to wait the team up or whatever. But again, I mean, the guy made 12 saves in the period. I don't know. yeah, you want your goalie to be perfect, but you're going to give up 13 shots against. He's going to stop 12 of them against a really good offensive team in the Washington Capitals. I don't know what else you want.

So I'd love to know how Robin Lanner feels about this. I'd love to know what really happened. I'd love to know what the thought process was. I can't wait to find out if we see Robin Lennar again all season. I mean, what's this guy supposed to do if he knows that one goal on 13 shots can get them yanked out before the next period starts? It was fascinating. Like it was, as somebody as a neutral, you know, I'm not a Knight's fan. I'm not the Dallas Stars fan or wherever they're chasing.

That was really fascinating to watch that all unfold last night. Yeah. And again, we'll get Jesse Granger on in a little bit to chat about that. It's amazing to me that the Vegas Golden Knights, I think when they parted ways with Mark Andre Fleury, my thought was, well, there goes the goalie controversy that has enveloped that team for years has evaporated. Like, okay, well, at least there's no more goalie questions. This might be the biggest goalie controversy they've ever had.

And that includes, you know, a tweet with the sword going through Mark Andre's. I don't know. I don't know anything I'll ever beat the sword. But, oh, my God, don't you wish Alan Walsh was Robin Lennar's agent right now? Oh, my God. Yeah. Wouldn't that have been great? It's, again, you know, and I'm looking forward to talking to Jesse because maybe there's an explanation.

I can't imagine what it would be. Even Mike Keenan, I don't think, has ever pulled a goalie. The only way I could see it is if, yeah, if a goalie's been perfect and then at the end of the period, suddenly he just whiffs on one. Or, you know, look, you can make saves and look bad. I think all of us as a fan have had that experience where you're watching the goalie. And it's, you know, you're 10 minutes into the first period and he hasn't given up a goal, but you're going, oh, man, I don't feel good about this.

He's biting the puck. Everything's a bad rebound. I didn't really get that sense with Leonard last night. But, I mean, there's having a short leash, and then there's having no leash at all. And I don't know how a goaltender is supposed to feel in that latter scenario. You know, I hate to bring this up for the Down Goes Brown internship program. But this would be a good one for you. Like, how many times has a goal?

And it'd be hard to do. because you'd have to go back and find a game story that would allude to it. How many times, and we got at least one other instance, which is Brian Elliott, how many times has a goal been pulled after giving up one goal for performance reasons? Yeah. Like at any point in the game. Not any point. You've seen it happen with injuries.

Right. I mean, I'd be willing to bet there's more goalies who've been ejected after giving up one goal than have been pulled by a coach's decision. It's just absolutely bizarre to me. And again, the fact that he left him in for 14 minutes didn't give up another goal and then decided to make the call, it doesn't line up. It's, you know, if he had pulled him at six minutes, if he had given him the Brian Elliott treatment, that would have been its own kind of controversy. But at least then you would have said, all right, he's not buying it. He says it was the team's reaction. Well, then that's on the team, man.

Go peel the pain off the wall. Like, unless you're saying that you really don't think this. team wants to play in front of this guy, in which case, boy, that's a whole other thing. So, I mean, I guess in one sense, credit to Pete the board, they need every point. They absolutely are in do or die mode. So in some sense, hey, feelings go out the window. If you think this guy gives you a 2% better chance to win this game, then that's the guy you go with. The other side of it would be to say, this is Pete DeBore knowing that he's done if they don't make

the playoffs and he's kind of he's finding a scapegoat and Robin Leonard to throw under the bus before before the season ends. I don't know. Yeah. Like you said, this was a really compelling game with a bunch of storylines and almost lost in the shuffle was Alexander Ovechkin hitting the 50 goal plateau for a ninth time in his career. And I'm curious, like, it feels understated this year. Like it didn't feel like there was a lot of celebration or hoopla around Alex Ovechkin hit in the 50 goal plateau. And I want to know, is that a function of because he really endorsed the, you know, Putin and the Russian politics?

Like, is that why we're keeping Ovechkin kind of at arm's length? Is it a function of, you know what, Austin Matthews got to 50 a while back? Like, 50 is not the big deal. 60's the big deal. Like, I'm trying to figure out why it feels a little understated. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was celebrated last night and into Thursday.

But it doesn't feel that way to me, that it feels a little understated. It's been a little bit of a weird one. I don't think this is just my gut here, but I don't feel like it's the politics of the situation because I really haven't heard much of that. You know, we talked about it a few weeks ago, you know, when when events happened and the subject came up and Ovechkin even addressed it kind of, but not really. And after that, I just really haven't heard very much about of it. He's obviously stayed away from it.

And I don't know, I don't know that it's come up all that much. I think it's more a case of a couple of things. And this is just the nature of how we are as fans, how we are as media. Our attention span is limited. And I feel like with Ovechkin, we kind of did the Ovechkin celebration in the first half. When he got out, he was flying to another start. He looked like he was potentially going to win another Rocket Richard. He was in the MVP conversation.

And I think a lot of us did the whole, oh, my gosh, it's so amazing. This guy's doing this at this age conversation back then. Then Leon Dressaitle comes along and he heats up and we sort of do the whole deal over him for a little bit. And then Austin Matthews just goes on an all-time heater. And all the goal scoring attention kind of stampedes off to him. and Ovechkin kind of gets left behind. And I also think part of it is maybe that, you know, with Alexander Ovechkin, I think he scored something like, you know, he had the two goals last night.

He had two goals in the two previous games over the last couple days. So it maybe snuck up on us a little bit that he kind of went from 46 to 50 in the span of a couple of days. Maybe that's it too. But, you know, 50 goals this season maybe doesn't feel as impressive. It's not, it doesn't have them in the Rocket Richard race, barring something really spectacular. And yet, you know, we will probably see 60 goals crack this year. So maybe 50 doesn't feel as impressive.

But 50 goals nine times is amazing. Any time you are on a list for offense and scoring in hockey that has Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy and nobody else, you know, that is pretty amazing. You get, you know, I have a running joke in my columns where anytime you have a group of players that have accomplished something, there's always one guy who feels like he doesn't really fit in. I call him the stat spoiler where there's like eight guys and it's seven Hall of Famers and then like Reed Larson shows up and you're like, well, okay. Not here. There's no stat spoilers for the 50 goal club. It is Mike Bossy. It is Wayne Gretzky and it's Alexander Ovechkin.

And you know what? if you were going to say who are the three greatest goal scores in the history of this game, I think there's a real good chance that those are your guys. Phil Esposito is not in that club. Bobby Hall's not in that club. Brett Hall is not in that club. It's just absolutely remarkable. And, you know, also the oldest guy now to ever score 50 goals.

This guy's just, he's phenomenal. He's a machine. And he's, now the question is, can he get into that double digit 50 goal club? up all by himself, which would be absolutely remarkable and would feel impossible even a few years ago. Okay, two things. First of all, needless drive-by on Reed Larson there. You see, there's no need to bring Reed Larson into the mix. That's my example. You know, I'm just throwing it out there. But yeah, apologies to noted American Blue Liner Reid Larson, who holds way more scoring marks. in 1980s that you would ever think.

Okay. And the other thing is something we probably don't talk about enough on the day after Ovechkin hits 50 goals for a ninth time. I think we need to talk about the season that he ended with 49. Like in 2017-18, he had 49 goals. And I kind of feel like, man, like we don't talk about that enough that he just needed one more goal in that 17-18 season. You know that one eats at him.

You know that's got to just absolutely eat at them. And not to mention, also had like 48 on a couple years ago in the COVID shortened season. So, I mean, it's amazing to say that this guy might like to talk about him joining this club with only Mike Bossy and Wayne Gretzky. It might not do him justice. Like it might actually be a case where he's being undercounted based on that. It's really remarkable. So a random surprise trivia question for you. And people who listen to this podcast, we sometimes do when we do some fun bonus content for the folks at Apple,

you and I do some fun trivia. Okay. And I thought, let me ask you this question because in light of Ovechke, and just talking about him hitting 49. How many players in NHL history had a season in which they got to 49 goals and ended with 49, but at no point in their career did they score 50?

Like, Ovechkin got to 49, okay? Ovecggeon got to 49, but he's got a bunch of 50 goal seasons. How many guys, I'll give you another example. Mike Gartner got to 49 one year, but he has a 50 goal season. Okay. Michelle Goulet got to 49. he's got a 50 goal season.

Steve Schutt got to 49. He had, I think, a couple of 60 goals seasons, if I'm not mistaken. So how many guys got to 49 and then never got to 50? That's a great question. Because I remember looking up, you know, guys who had had 49 goal seasons, 99 points seasons, that sort of thing. And it's a lot fewer than you would think statistically for obvious reasons, right? When you get close, your teammates start feeding you, you start pressing for that goal.

I think you know, there's, you compare it to the number of 47 or 48 goals seasons. There's not a lot of 49s. But off the top of my head, man, I'm trying to think how many guys, if any, because it can't be a high number, can it? I think it's four. Okay. From what I can gather, I think it's four. Is one of them Rob Brown? Yeah.

So this is the read large. This is the read large. Carson effect. Yeah. Yeah, Rob Brown got to 49 riding shotgun with Mario in Mario's 199 point season. Rob Brown had 499 goals. And I feel like you, if there's any Rob Brown trivia, like you should be all over that. I should be able to get Rob Brown. And I'm going to do, I'm going to do my, I've done this before, but I'm going to, I'm going to defend Rob Brown, because I just want to say this. I had a question in my mailbag where somebody was asking, who's the biggest mark donk in Pittsburgh Penguins history, right?

This is that old joke that they always have some random guy. Yeah. And I listed a bunch of guys and I had people saying, what about Rob Brown? What about Rob Brown? Like I played with Merrill Lemieux, scored 49 goals. Rob Brown, people don't realize how good he was in junior. If you want to have your eyes pop out of your head, look up Rob Brown's Hockey DB page. Look at his junior stats.

This guy, yes, he wasn't a Hall of Famer in the NHL, but this wasn't some nobody who just showed up and they, you know, they dropped him on a line with, with, Marilomew. This wasn't like the modern day Warren Young. This guy, he had insane numbers in junior. He was a grade A plus prospect and young player. And he probably belonged on that line and deserved those 49 goals. There you go. That's me being nice to Robb. Rob, please continue to not sue me. Yeah. And he did that. He had a 49 goal season at the age of 20. Like that's remarkable. Like, think about that for a second. Okay. So here's your answer. These are the only players in NHL history. And if I'm wrong, let me know.

Like anyone can just, you know, write back to the, leave us a note in the comment section. He's not wrong, folks. It's trivia. Don't even. Don't get into it. Rob Brown. Kent Nielsen, the Magic Man. He had a 49 goal season. Frank Mahavillich. Oh, wow. And Gordy Howe. Howe never had a 50 goal season? I don't think so. You may very well be right. I think 49 was his high, was it not?

He played in the era where Yeah, 49 is his high. 50 games for a lot of that in 70 games season. So I guess I'm not shocked at that, but I'm surprised. I certainly wouldn't because I mean, I was surprised you said Frank Mahavlich and had a 50 goal year. But yeah, you're right.

As scoring goes up, as the season gets longer, that says, you know, Howe is getting older and then obviously misses a chunk of time in the 70s. Because isn't it also the case, isn't it one of those trivia questions that Gordy Howe never had an overtime goal in his career? Which, again, sounds absolutely ridiculous. They didn't have overtime in the regular season for most of his career. And I don't believe he ever had one in the playoffs.

I think there's actually, there's quite a few big names that never scored a playoff overtime goal. But Gordy Howe, I don't believe, had one at all in his career, didn't have the opportunity in the regular season. So there we go. You want to stump your friends and coworkers or family, whatever. Just tell them, hey, can you name the four players in the NHL history to end a season with 49 goals, but they never ended up scoring 50 in any other season? And again, the answers are Jimmy Carson, Kent Nielsen, Frank Mahavolich, and Gordy Howe.

Is Jimmy Carson on? the list too? So Jimmy Carson's... Or was it Rob Brown? Jimmy Carson scored... Sorry, did I say Jimmy Carson? You said Jimmy Carson just now, yeah. Sorry, sorry.

Sorry, I meant Kent Nielsen. Ken Nielsen, Rob Brown, uh, Gordy Howell, Frank Mahavitch. You know, sorry, I'm looking at a list with Jimmy Carson, but he had a 50... He had 50, I want to say, yeah, it is like, but he was another guy because when I thought of him as soon as you mentioned Rob Brown doing it at 20 because Jimmy Carson had his first two years. Like, I think he was a teenager when he debuted in the last. league was absolutely unstoppable.

Obviously, it goes over in the Gretzky trade and just never reaches those numbers again. But yeah, let that. So two, one, Gordy Howe, an all-time goat tier guy, Frank Mahavillich, certified Hall of Famer, Kent Neal isn't a guy that a lot of people think belongs in the Hall of Fame. And Rob Brown, I'm telling you, man, Rob Brown was better than you think. You're in the club with those guys. That's not, that's not bossy and Gretzky territory, but that's pretty good. That's not bad at all.

Yeah. Hey, listen, I want to hit on, on Thursday, the NHL announced that they're returning to their global games, which is obviously they've had to hit pause on that due to the pandemic. So first time since 2019, we're going to get overseas games in the NHL next season. And I'm interested because the collection of teams is kind of curious to me. They're going to start the predators and the sharks are going to start the season in Prague, in the Czech Republic. And then in November, the aves and blue jackets are going to play in Finland. And, you know, there's part of me that thinks, you know what, hey, let's tip our hat to the

NHL. It's not the usual, you know, how it is with the signature games. It's Chicago and Pittsburgh and, you know, whoever else you want to, Boston or whoever's in that group. But I don't know. This is kind of weird to be. But I guess this is a way to, you want to stoke the flames of the Predator's Sharks rivalry. I guess this is one way to do it, get them to go. overseas, right?

Yeah, it is a little bit odd. And, yeah, credit to the league for getting some other teams out there and giving, yeah, I would say some decent teams. I mean, they're at least not doing the NFL thing where they always keep sending the Jaguars over to London, you know, for terrible games that nobody else cares about. They're, you know, they're at least giving them some decent games. But it is a bit of an interesting mix. Especially because typically a lot of times when they send these teams over to countries, you can, you look at the teams and you go, oh, why would it be those two teams?

And then you look at the rosters and you go, right, there are players on that team, star players that are from that country. And so you're going to sell some tickets. And with the sharks, you've got Thomas Hurtle, presumably would be the draw there. I don't really see who it would be on Nashville. that they would pick them or maybe they just feel like it's a you know, it's a playoff caliber team at least, interesting team.

So I guess we'll see. And then the avalanche and blue jackets, you're sending the avalanche, that's a great team. And, you know, you've got what Miko Renton and Patrick Liney, I guess, would be the draws there. So that makes sense.

But yeah, you know what? It's a neat experience. It's neat to send those teams over there. I don't know. I wonder if this is the sort of thing that teams want to do or if they don't. I mean, we've certainly, you and I remember in Ottawa when they went over to Europe a few years ago, and that was right around the Matthew Shea trade and then the whole season collapsed right after that. Wasn't it, was it Colorado that they played?

Yeah, it was Avs and Sends. I wonder what Matt Duchesne is thinking. He's going over with Nashville now. Yeah. He's like, guys, I got to tell you, the last time I went to Europe, let me tell you what happened. Yep. He and Eric Carlson will have a lot to talk about. Maybe that's the draw.

Oh, there you go. Carlson and Duchenne just furiously trying to, it's like an action movie, furiously trying to get, prevent the game from happening. But yeah, Blue Jackets fans, be careful. You're playing the avalanche in Europe that if you get off to a good start, look out. One of the thing I want to bring up real quick is with the league going back to Europe, do you remember? And this was like probably after the lockout.

And I think it was when Paul Kelly was running the NHLPA. There was like this 18 month window where Paul Kelly was in charge of the PA. And he was talking openly about, you know what, I think in like 10 or 20 years, we're going to have a European division in the NHL. Like he was very, he was very adamant that at some point in our lifetime we would see a European division. And I feel like the talk around that is completely dissipated. Like, do you see, I just don't see it anymore or I don't feel it anymore. You know, it's, it's tough.

I think the reason that they were looking at that was, I mean, look, we know that other sports have looked at, you know, can we get more of a foothold internationally? obviously the NFL has been the most aggressive there. Hockey has the advantage. The hockey is a far more popular sport in Europe than American football or, you know, far more history at the very least. So in theory, you could do it. I think that, you know, the things that have changed are obviously the KHL being a relatively stable league does eat up some of the markets and attention you'd be looking for.

And I think the other piece of it was probably when Paul Kelly was talking about this, he was looking forward and saying, where's the growth coming from for this league? We're at 30 teams. Maybe we can expand a little bit and they have. But where does the growth come as far as the revenue pie that I've got to increase because my players get 50% of it. So every $2 that we can bring in that's new, a dollar that goes in my players' pockets. And I think maybe the explosion in TV rights temporarily answered that question.

That became the growth through no, certainly nothing that the NHL itself had done. And in fact, they missed really a big chunk of the wave of that because of that awful deal that Batman signed back around that time. But maybe that was the feeling that, okay, you know what? Revenue rights are going up. There's new revenue streams coming in. We don't have to worry about all the headaches that would be involved in going over to Europe. It would still be fascinating to see. I don't rule it out for the future.

But I think much like Paul Kelly, I'm talking a future 10 or 20 years down the road. And, you know, we haven't seen the progress towards it that we thought we might. All right. Sean, as we said, we're really looking forward to this conversation. And as always, Jesse Granger drops by for Granger things, a presentation of BetMGM, the exclusive betting partner with us with the athletic. And, you know, when we bring you in, Jesse, we usually do. We talk about some lines, some futures, some prop bets.

all that stuff. But right, look, like Sean said off the top, the game on Wednesday night might have been one of the most dramatic, compelling storyline, fueled games of the league this season. I want you to take us and our listeners through this for a second, Jesse, when the PA announcer to start the second period says, now in goal for the Vegas Golden Knights, Logan Thompson.

Like, what's your reaction? Like, what was going through your mind? Yeah, I mean, shock, but also, so I think, I think it's important to, to start last game. So the game before that, Monday against New Jersey, in the third period, Robin Lennar led in two goals. I mean, the Golden Knights weren't playing well in that game. New Jersey was the better team. The Golden Knights probably didn't deserve to win, but they were going into the third period tied 1-1. And Robin Lennar led in two really soft goals, goals that he'd like back. No other way to put it. And then after the game,

Pete DeBore laid the blame at Robin Leonard's feet in a way that coaches rarely do with their starting goalie. Like he said, we needed our goalie. At this time of year, you need your guy to be better than their guy at the other end. And we didn't get that tonight. Someone asked him about the defense in the third period. And he said, I actually thought we played good defense. I didn't think either goal was a good chance. Words you don't usually hear a coach say about his starting goalie while they're trying to make a playoff run.

So we all. And then he went on to say, Goaltending, it's been tough to find consistency. There have been injuries. Robin's been hurt. The only guy who's really been consistent for us is L.T. Logan Thompson. So we all kind of just assumed Logan Thompson is starting the next game against the

Washington Capitals. Clearly that didn't happen. They started Robin Lennar. It was a very surprise. I was more surprised to see Robin Lennar starting than I was to see Logan Thompson come out for the second period, to be a little honest. But that first period, Robin Lennar stopped 12 of 13 shots. It was one to one.

like the game was out of hand. It was not a score or a performance that would normally get a goalie pulled. So it was a little strange. Logan Thompson comes in, plays really well. He had a couple big stops. He did give a couple up to Ovechkin, but everybody kind of does that. And then after the game, Pete DeBore gave a really weird answer that doesn't make a lot of sense as to why he made the decision to start Robin and the decision to switch to Logan Thompson. It was just a really weird night. So help me out because people have already heard me at the at the opening. I don't want to dip into conspiracy land here, but I feel like there has to be something else here. So are we, I guess two things. A, are we completely sure that Robin Lanner is healthy or that

this had nothing to do with an injury or an aggravation or anything like that? And number two, am I crazy to think that something could have happened in the room? Something could have been said that something that we didn't, obviously didn't see or wouldn't hear about, could have gone on that would have led to this. Because Ian and I were talking, I'm the history guy. I can't ever remember a scenario like this

where a goalie gives up one goal, six minutes into a period, plays the rest of the period, plays shutout hockey, and then gets yanked on a pure coach's decision. And his team tied the game. His team tied the game like after the, so,

and okay, so I'll start with, is Robin Leonard healthy? in my opinion, Robin Lennar is not healthy. He's been injured twice this season. Serious injuries, one upper body on his shoulder, one lower body. He says he's good to go. But even when he says it, you can see it in his eyes that it's like it's this time of year.

Like nobody's fully healthy. There's healthy and then there's hockey healthy. So I think Robin Lennar's been playing through injuries. And to be completely honest, Robin Lennar has not been good lately. And he hasn't looked like the goalie. not just in terms of the success or like the saves. He's not playing in a style that he normally plays, which tells me he's not himself.

I don't think Robin Linder forgot how to play goalie overnight. He's just playing hurt. However, this decision had nothing to do with health. Pete DeBore's exact answer, the decision to start him, we pay him to start games like this. It's the most important time of the year. He's healthy. He's fresh.

He's got a lot of energy. And we need him at this point of the year. After that New Jersey game, I felt like I wanted to give him the opportunity to bounce back and have a big game for us. So Pete DeBore says he's healthy. That tells me the change to Logan Thompson had nothing to do with health. Two things. I think it's very strange that a coach would bring up a player's salary.

Maybe that's just, I haven't been covering this league forever, but I've been covering it long enough. I've never heard a coach say bring up a player's salary. To me, and this is dipping into conspiracy land, like you said, Sean. Yep. Maybe management, maybe there was some direction. from above Pete DeBoer, from Kelly McCriman and George McPhee, saying, hey, we traded the Vezina winner, Mark Andre Fleury. We're not benching the guy we traded Flurry for, to, for an AHL goalie to end this season. Like Robin Lennar's our guy, he needs to win these games.

That's, I'm not reporting that. That's just connecting the dots. And the fact that Pete DeBore brought up Robin Lennar's salary after the game was strange to me. Honestly, my thought when he said that, was and I'm not, set me straight here because I'm not being very charitable here. But to me, that is a coach creating a scapegoat for a season that's going probably going to end badly. And the coach knows that he's under the gun.

And it was sort of like, hey, you know, his salary, hey, remember we're the capped out team? We're the team that's had to do all this balancing. Well, you know, we're paying a ton of money to this goaltender. everybody go look over there. Is there, the golden nights are playing for their season. They got the win last night. They're still, you know, Dallas lost. So they got the outcome they need it last night.

They've got this huge game coming up with Dallas next week. Can you go back to Robin Leonard for any start the rest of this way, knowing that, you know, he's going out there thinking, what, one goal and I got to be looking at the bench every single time. Is there any chance that we see? see him start a game again the rest of the season? I mean, logic tells me no, but also after DeBoer kind of, like I said, he kind of threw Lennar under the bus after the New Jersey game. And he flat out himself said Logan Thompson is the most consistent goalie right now. So the fact that

he went back to Lennar, it, so I actually asked Pete after the game what this means, because he, he said that Lennar's fresh, he's healthy, he's got the energy and they're paying him to start these games. And I basically said, look, all those things are still going to be true tomorrow. you're still paying him. He's still fresh. What does this mean for your goal to be moving forward? And he said, we're going to enjoy the win tonight. And you can ask me that three of the next four days, Jesse.

So I will be asking him that three of the next four days. It's just, I agree with you. To me, it makes no logical sense that Pete DeBore, after that New Jersey game, blamed Robin Lennar, said Logan Thompson's his most consistent goalie. I have a hard time believing that Pete DeBore suddenly changed his mind and wanted start Robin. And then after that first period, which Leonard did let in a goal that wasn't great, but his team tied it afterwards. He stopped 12 of 13 shots. I have a hard time believing that Pete DeBore is just changing his mind like this. There has to be something else in play.

The other thing is he said, he said after that New Jersey game, I wanted to give Robin a chance, an opportunity to bounce back and have a big game for us. How is pulling him after allowing one goal? That's doing the exact opposite of that. So to me, it's like, I think Pete is trying to tow the line on the press conference and say the right things, but he's having a hard time doing it because I think there's information that there's something going on that we don't know about, whether it's management pressuring him to play certain players, whether it's injuries that we aren't aware of. There's got to be something else to this. You know, I can't help but think that maybe Evgeny Dadanov needs to have a conversation with Robin Leonard and be like,

oh, you think you were disrespectful. So let me take you back to a month ago. But here's my question on Dadaunov because, Jesse, he's got 10 goals in his last 23 games. He's got nine points in nine games in the month of April. He scored again on Wednesday, a third period goal, which was a big one. And I think there were a lot of us curious when he got traded to Anaheim and then the deal got rescinded. And he kind of had to come back, tail between his legs. What version of the player were we going to see, boy, he gets that overtime winner right away.

Like I said, 10 goals on his last 23 games. Clearly, this guy's been motivated by what happened, right? Yeah, it's been fun to watch. So I just have the stat handy because I tweeted out last night. I mean, prior to the trade, he had 27 points in 62 games. So less than a half a point per game. And after the trade deadline, he has 13 points in 12 games. So he's over a point per game since the trade deadline.

He's just been a better player everywhere, all three zones. He's been more noticeable on the forecheck. He's been more noticeable in his own end. He's making plays. Pete DeBoer said it when the trade void happened. He's like, if there's a guy in that room that can handle this, I think it's Evgeny Donov. And if you've, I mean, I don't know how much, how well you got to know him, Ian up in

Ottawa, but like he, he is a very stoic, calm. Like, you hear players all the time say you don't want the highest to be too high. to be too low. Like, Evgeny Dadov lives that. That is his personality. And I just feel like he's the type of guy who could handle something like this and be able to say, look, it was a business decision. I understand that there are cap gymnastics. They had to, like, Mark Stone was coming back. Like, I think you can rationalize it to yourself and not just say like this team didn't want me. I think you say, look, they traded for me. They clearly wanted me in the off season. They needed to bring guys back off of LTIR. And that's why they tried to trade me. So he's been able to,

to put that to the side. He's been able to play really well. He's been key. I mean, the golden nights, I think if, if that trade goes through, the golden nights are probably already eliminated from the playoffs at this point. I mean, it would only have taken a couple more losses. And he's been, he's had a couple key game winning goals and a couple big plays. Since that last night, that goal that he scored a little bit of a soft one from Simsonov on the, on letting that puck sneak underneath his arm, but still a great shot by Dodonov in a moment where like the golden nights were, dead in the water at that point, two to one, and the building was dead. He scores that goal. And Timo Blarina, it feels like it's been a while since that building has been that loud.

He scores that goal. 59 seconds later, the Golden Knight scored that power play goal. And it felt a little bit of nostalgia last night with how loud that place was, playing the capitals. It was kind of cool. It was fantastic to watch. It was a hell of a game. And I guess now we just wait for the next one. And we should point out that we've been, it feels like we've been saying all along every time Vegas, you know, comes, we come up and we talk about the playoff race. It's always games in hand, games in hand. Tonight, Dallas makes up the game in hand. And they do it on a back-to-back against Calgary. It's a real tough one.

I mean, that's going to be, obviously they steal a point or two in that one. It doesn't close the door, but it definitely pushes it a lot closer. But if they don't, Calgary wins this one in regulation. we've officially got a race because that that game on Tuesday is looming as the game of the year in the regular season so far. Yeah, it should be fun. And Vancouver jumping into it too, man. The West, the East race disappointed us, but the West, I feel like is making up for it a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah. Hey, listen, Jesse, this was great. Thanks for the visit. Again, like Sean and I said off the top, I think Vegas is the team and the story of the year. And certainly it's amplified in the last couple of weeks. So we appreciate you dropping by just to walk our listeners through the latest. And listen, this is going to be really, when we reconnect with you next week, boy, there's going to be even more to talk about as it pertains to the playoff race.

So listen, have a great week and we'll hit you up again next Thursday. Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys. All right, that was great to reconnect with Jesse Granger, as always. Listen, before we open up the mailback, I want to draw our listeners' attention to a couple of stories. First one, Mark Lazarus did a wonderful job this week in trying to tell the story of how players in the NHL and how they're trying to erase

kind of sensitive, homophobic and charged language out of the game. And I, you know, Sean, I just, I want to take a minute because I think it's an important conversation to have. I think Laz did a great job with that. He got so many opinions,

current players, Brock McGillis, who's a spokesperson on this particular topic. Like, it was a really, I thought, thoughtful piece it's a needed piece. I know some people feel like, we don't need this.

I think it was needed. Seeing some of the responses to the column reminds me that we need this, but it was some really important storytelling from Mark Lazarus on this particular topic. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, and it was a story worth telling and it was worth thinking about and being reminded about if you're, if you're a fan,

if you're someone involved in the game in any way. you know, look, this, this, the way that we talk in this way has evolved a lot for the, for the good in the last, you know, even few years, certainly the last 10 or 20 years. I know how I talked when I was young, you know, 20 years ago. I know what kind of words I would use around my friends and, you know, that sort of thing. And a lot of those still get broken out in the hockey world. And the defense everyone always offers is they'll say, well, you know, I'm not. I'm not using this language because I have anything against gay people.

I'm just, you know, I'm using it in a different way. And yeah, that's the problem. You're, you know, you would never say something outright. You would hope against, against a gay player, a gay teammate, a gay opponent. You're just using all of those same slurs they've heard their whole life as a synonym for something else, for being weak, for being stupid, for being, you know, whatever it is. That's the problem. You know, again, it's just, it's one of these issues where you stop for a second. Don't get your backup.

Don't get defensive. Stop and think and put yourself in someone else's shoes. Imagine you're, you know, somebody, you love hockey and you go into the hockey world and you just constantly hear this, this language that's not aimed at you, but that is about you, whether people know it or not. How would that make you feel? You know, would you feel welcome? Would you feel like hockey is for everyone?

or would you feel like it was a very clear sign that, hey, this is, you're not welcome here. And, you know, I've said it before. When it comes to making hockey more inclusive, when it comes to making it more welcoming, you do it first and foremost because it's just the right thing to do. End of story. But if you need a better reason than that or you need another reason, look at the hockey world. Are we, you know, are all the buildings sold out? Are the TV ratings through the roof?

Is hockey drowning in its own popularity? Not really. We could use some more folks on the bandwagon and making the game more welcoming or at least not having the game be outright hostile is a big step in making that happen. And kudos to Mark for talking about it, for him talking to people within the game and getting their views on it. because, you know, those of us in the media world, we can, we can write our columns and pontificate, but it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. We need to hear from the people in the game. I thought it was a really, really good piece. And if people didn't, didn't catch it the first time around, I hope they take time to read it. Yeah, exactly. Well said. A couple of other pieces that I thought were great

on our site this week. Dom Lushishin has a story where he tries to kind of quantify heavy hockey. You know, Dom's an analytics, looks through things through an analytics lens. And it's a really well-reasoning. research, well-thought-out piece, looks at guys like Mitch Marner and Johnny Goodrow, why they struggle in the playoffs, would point people in that direction. Pierre LeBron had a couple of great columns this week, too, one on Donald Thier and maybe where the PA goes. The other one that I think is really interesting, LeBron dropped it on Thursday, Sean, is looking at 10 coaches whose contracts he believes are expired or expiring at the end

of the year. There might be a club option. And there's some fascinating cases here. You know, Marty St. Louis in Montreal, Jeff Blaschland, Detroit. I'll tell you, the one for me that I think is the most interesting is Andrew Brunette with the Panthers. Because they're running away, scoring at a kind of a record clip, at least in this iteration of the NHL. But it kind of feels like they got to go deep into the playoffs. Like, to me, if you're asking me, like, who's the one, what's the one coaching situation that's unsettled for next year that I'm most intrigued in?

For me, it's Andrew Brunette in Florida. Yeah, it's an interesting one. He's, his name keeps coming up when people talk about the Jack Adams, which I find a little bit surprising just because he took over a team that was already 7-0 and starting to run away on the pack. But he's done a good job. I would be surprised if he wasn't back. But yeah, you're right.

They may, they may want to look at the playoffs there. I am, there's a lot of, there's a few names on this list where I think the answer is obvious. but there are a few that it's tricky. I do think Martin-Saint-Louis is, certainly it sounds like he's coming back if he wants to. I do think that's interesting. I mean, you look at the team's record under him. It's certainly much better than it was under Dominic Douchard,

but it's not great. And, you know, it's not at the level where usually an interim coach needs to be. But sometimes it's more than just wins and losses. And certainly you look at the energy around that team. It's been very different. The other ones that I do find interesting is Jay Woodcroft in Edmonton. The record's been much better. Is it just a case that the goaltending sorted itself out, or is it something more than that?

It sounds like they want to wait until the playoffs and see how that goes. So that's very interesting to me because you've already kind of seen in the media this sort of question being raised of, hey, should this guy get an extension right now? Is it time? Do we wait? It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. And then the other one, and I wrote about this a couple weeks ago, Jeff Blashell in Detroit, I don't get it. It's the second longest serving coach in the NHL now behind only John Cooper has one playoff game in one appearance, and that was in the first year. Clearly, it's a rebuild.

I don't think anyone was expecting him to take this roster to the Stanley Cup or even to the playoffs. But Steve Isamon just keeps on standing by him. And I just, I really wonder when the Red Wings are good enough to contend for a cup, is this the guy behind the bench? And if, you know, can you see that? And if the answer is no, when do you make the change? I'm really interested. We thought two years ago was obviously going to be the time and it wasn't. And you got the extension.

So let's see. I'm curious to watch how that plays out. Speaking of the Red Wings, look, we're going to open up the mailbag here. And a reminder, you can hit us up at the athletic hockey. show at gmail.com. Leave us a voicemail at 845-4-4-5-8459. We also got comments sent to us in the comment section of the podcast. We certainly encourage that. Now, last week, we hit on the story and at the time, and I'll give an update here for a second to our listeners about the aforementioned Red Wings parting ways with longtime Zamboni driver Alcibodka. And we talked about how we

twirled octopus. And here comes the problem. Okay. All right. Okay. And we just want to point this out because the number one piece of feedback we got last week was I said, wait, is it octopuses or octopi? And we both thought, no, no, it's octopi. I very confidently said octopi. Like with a little bit of pride in my voice that I knew this. And you did. And then the comment sections were flooded with, hey, listen, just an FYI, it's actually octopuses, not octopi. And people see. seemed really, like, adamant about this. And you, look, you and I both went to journalism school at Carlton. We kind of, I think, fancy ourselves as, uh, wordsmiths or whatever. You know, like, I think we have a pretty good idea. Wordsmiths or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Spoken like a true wordsmith. Yeah, we do that. What's the thing where you smith the words, whatever. That's what we do. Yeah. I, I didn't know this.

And apparently it's not. completely settled. There is some dispute. And then the other piece of this that I learned is apparently there's a third camp that says octopode. And I had some people tell me like, whatever you do, don't fall in with that crew. Like those are the outsiders. They're the bad boys of this debate. And people had strong feelings that, you know, hey, octopi versus octopuses, but don't, don't bring the octopodes. And then other people were trying to recruit me to team octopodes. I don't know. I'm going to have to think more about this and I'm going to have to reflect. And, you know, all I can say is I promise that I will continue to evolve and try to do

better. And I'm sorry if I let people down. Okay. And to give the follow up on this story. And we were like, wow, why was Al Sabotka, long time Red Wing Zamboni driver and the guy that twirled the octa, the squid, there we go. Yeah. Squid around, you know, on the ice was kind of a, a well, known fiction, why did the team part ways with him mysteriously within the last couple of weeks? Well, the Detroit Free Press, I believe the first to report this, that Sabatka has basically filed a lawsuit and says he was, he was let go because he was accused. And I'm having a hard time saying this. Go ahead, word smith.

Go ahead. Let's hear it. Let's see how you, for basically relieving himself into a drain at Little Caesar's arena. So as the story goes, Sabatka is claiming, look, he's got an underlying medical condition that sometimes prompts him to urinate when, you know, he can't control it. And I certainly don't want to, you know, mock that or bring that into question because that, it sounds like that would be a serious condition. But that's the reason why he's saying that he got let go because he peed into a drain at the... So there you go. There you go. Let it never be said.

that we don't close the loop on on on stories that we bring up. Yeah, I don't even I don't even know where to go with that one. Other than, you know, it was, we wish him the best. And I don't know. Other than that, I don't want to say anything because I might be grammatically incorrect. And then I'll get yelled at on this one. There we go.

spoken like a true word smith. Yeah. Let's, like I said, let's open up the, and I'm sure people will have some responses to us about the octopus. Oh, I'm sure they will. Yep. But let's open up the inbox here in the mailbag. And this is interesting.

I like this one here. This one came in from Sean to us at the athletic hockey show at gmail.com. And if you haven't been following along on, if you're not on Twitter for our listeners, former NHL defenseman, Hall of Famer of Chris Pronger, has kind of been doing an AMA thing, like an ask, me anything. And it's actually been really interesting. Like I found it interesting. Like he's talked about finances and how players handle money and different things behind the scenes. I find it interesting. Some people find it like, you know, Prongers detached from reality. I don't mind it because at least

I think he's giving us a peek behind the curtain into a world that people like you and I don't really quite understand. Sean writes in and says, look, when Chris Pronger started tweeting out, he's asked me anything, schick on Twitter, I immediately sent him the old school. down goes brown suspension flow chart. Ask him what he thought of it. And he responded, wow, this is the first time I've ever seen it. And Chris goes on to say, look, I always thought that people were always

coming up to Pronger and yelling things at him. And, you know, so, I mean, what do you think about? I don't think anybody's going up to Chris Pronger and yelling things at him. Not that. I wouldn't recommend that. I actually, I saw this tweet. Sean brought it to my attention when he tweeted to Chris Bronger. And yeah, I don't know what I would have been hoping for if I had,

if you would ask me, has Chris Pronger seen the infamous flow chart, which he plays a prominent role in, whether I would have wanted him to have seen it or not? I feel like the joke I made in the chart was like a pro-chrispronger joke. I don't think I was necessarily attacking him. But no, generally speaking, these guys don't see this sort of stuff. So I wasn't too surprised that it was news to him. But now I'm going to be, I'm going to be watching my back, because now that Sean's ratted me out, who knows, I might, you know, Chris Bronger might be looking for it.

I mean, if I hear that chainsaw start up, I'm diving under the table. Okay. This email comes in from Dave, who says, around this time of year, there's always some talk about promising trajectory for non-playoff teams. For example, Anaheim Ducks are on the rise. They've got some young talent. The Canucks are just a couple of maybe offseason moves away, etc.

etc. My question to you guys is about the flip side of that coin. If teams are going to rise up, that means others have to fall. So which teams do you think might regress or fail to improve in the next couple of years, thus opening up some playoff spots for these teams that are rising? P.S. Go Ave's that comes in from Dave. It's a great question because it's true. We sometimes think of, you know, Ottawa, Detroit, Anaheim, Buffalo, and you're like, you know, at New Jersey. and they're going to rise and they're rebuilding and here they come. Well, okay, that's great, but someone's got to fall for that to happen. So do we see some vulnerable teams here?

Yeah. I think that the answers would, my answers would probably be similar to anyone else's. And first of all, for the last few years, I would have given the same answer and it hasn't happened yet. So take that with an enormous grand assault. But I think you start with Washington and Pittsburgh, two teams that have both been very good for a long time, both built around franchise players who are now into their mid-30s. Certainly, you look at Pittsburgh, the situation when the Malcon coming up in the offseason, Chris Latang being another one.

I've been waiting for those teams to fall off for a little while. It hasn't happened yet. We typically, when we look at teams like that, we sort of say, well, yeah, but even if they did take a step back, you know, they can still take a step back and still be in the playoff mix, what have you. But sometimes it's not that. it's a plummet. And we saw that with the sharks, probably being the most notable example recently. I think the capitals and the penguins, certainly the window would be closing there.

And then the other one would be the Boston Bruins, just given that a lot of that core is older. Patrice Bergeron, we don't know what his future is going to be in Boston, if any. He is the heart and soul of that team. They've already said goodbye to Zedaino Chara, already said goodbye to Tuka Rask. Brad Marchand is a guy who's starting to get up to that age where you wonder if production will follow, though it hasn't yet. You know, there's still some good players. You can still, you know, David Pasternak, Charlie McAvoy,

that gives you a core. But you wonder if that would be, you know, certainly if I'm one of those teams you mentioned like Detroit, Buffalo, maybe Ottawa that's looking to move up in the Atlantic, Boston's maybe the team that I'm looking at is being vulnerable. Yeah, I just think that the gap, Just look at the Atlantic Division, I think the gap is too wide. Like Toronto, Florida, Boston, and Tampa are like on one end of the equation.

And then Ottawa, Detroit, you know, Montreal, Buffalo are on the other. And it's like the Grand Canyon between them. Like, it's not like, that's pretty close. This is like a 35 point separation. And it's going to be hard kind of year over year. Like you said, Boston might be the team. Like you feel like they're duct taped together. But to me, until you, like when you're Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington,

and you've consistently made the playoffs for a decade, until you miss, you kind of have to assume that they're going to be a playoff team. Like until they do something, you can hope all you want. But until they miss, they're a locket in playoff team, right? Yeah, I mean, you would think. And, you know, now that haven't been said, we do see big shifts every year or all. almost every year where some team that, you know, we, we think is locked in as a big fall, was the Islanders this year.

And some other team makes a big jump. And, you know, for example, the, you know, what, what, if I had gone to you last year and said, do you think the Calgary flames could be better than the Islanders this year? He would have said, well, they were 16 points apart in a half season last year. There's no way. And, of course, not only has Calgary caught them, but by a mile, they're going to, uh, It's going to be a massive difference. It does happen.

It doesn't happen a ton, though. And it's, I had this discussion, I can't remember if it was with you or on the other podcast where we said, what are the odds that the eight teams in the east, the eight playoff teams next year are exactly the same as they are this year. I don't think it's all that out of the question. That would be almost unprecedented as far as what we usually see from the NHL. But it's going to be really tough other than probably the Islanders. And we got to wait and see what happens in the odds. season, obviously, but other than the Islanders, I don't know that you look at it and you say, gosh, there's teams here that are going to make a big jump.

And, you know, somebody pointed out this week, you look at the 2020 bubble playoffs from that, from the COVID season. And you look at the seven teams that didn't get the invite to that tournament. And you look at the teams that are at the bottom of the league right now, it's a pretty similar list. We haven't seen anyone take that put, you know, make that push forward. You know, the Kings are kind of the one team that's done it. We thought maybe the Ducks would be in that mix. Other than that, you know, these teams that we keep saying, well, you know, pretty soon,

we just said in the Atlantic, Detroit, Buffalo, Ottawa, you know, soon. These guys are going to be ready. We've been saying that for three or four years now for some of those teams. At some point, it's got to happen or it doesn't. And I guess, I guess we'll see. Okay, to wrap up the show as we always do, let's just hit on one item from this. week in hockey history. We want to take our listeners back to this week in 1987, April 18th, to be exact, April 18th, 1987, New York Islanders forward, Pat Laugh-Fontane scores in quadruple

overtime to win what is later termed as the Easter epic, as they knock out the capitals in the game seven overtime. A couple of questions. First of all, you and I are the same age, okay? And I want to know, did you stay up, do you have any recollection? Did you stay up to watch the Easter epic that would have gone to like, I don't know, 1 a.m., 2 a.m., whatever? Absolutely not. I can't even remember if it would have been on up here in Canada. But no, I didn't see it. And in fact, I don't even remember being that aware of it.

I don't know if I was following the playoffs closely that year or not. I remember really learning about this game on one of those VHS tapes that you remember you always got for Christmas? And like back in the day, that's how you found out, like, oh, yeah, there was this crazy game. And it was, you know, one of these lighter side of hockey type deals, but it was talking about this game that just kept going and going and going. And that was, you know, that's where I remember first even seeing the goal. I'm sure I must have seen it somewhere before then months later. But that was kind of my introduction to just how epic this epic Easter

had been. Yeah. You know what? Now you just unlocked one of those core childhood memories. There was nothing better on Christmas. You knew and you knew exactly the size and shape of a VHSB. Oh, yeah. And you knew that this is Rockem Sockham 3. I know. Like I could feel it. 100%. Yeah. You get those.

They were like half an hour long. But, you know, back then, I know you kids out there, this is going to sound crazy. We're, you know, the old guys are ranting. But back then, if something funny happened, like if somebody, you know, got hitting the nads with the puck or, you know, something like that, we didn't see it six seconds later on our phones. We had to wait until the day after Christmas. And like some rag tag music would be playing in the background.

then we'd see it. And we go, okay, that's, that was pretty cool. Okay. You know what? I just, I just thought of something, too, when you're like, I don't know if that game was broadcasting Canada. Bob Cole had the call of that goal. Did he not? He may have. I think so. Yeah. I think it was on hockey. The most famous broadcast of that is, is the American version where it's Doc Amric and Bill Clement. And they just, if you've never seen it, go on YouTube and look it up because they just lose their minds as the game goes on. And there's an intermission in overtime. It's the second or third overtime intermission. where they've just completely lost it.

They've got their ties wrapped around their head. They've got like Bill Clement is doing impressions. And Doc Amric is just like crying, laughing. And it makes no sense at all. Like they have nothing prepared. They just have to fill time. It's absolutely hilarious. And Bill Kement turns out to be pretty good at impressions.

You know what? And so I want to wrap this up by saying, look, I called it the Easter epic. And if you talk to dire hockey fans, you say, hey, the Easter epic, you'll think of Lafonte. beating Bob Mason, all of that. I want to know, like, how many games in hockey history have, like, a nickname like that? And I say that because let me think, like, I think of the NFL. And I think of there's so many games that have a nickname to them. It's, you know, the ice bowl, right?

Cowboys Packers. Or immaculate reception with the Steelers or like Music City Miracle or. Yeah. The Holy Roller. Yeah. Holy Roller. Talk to Cleveland fans about Red Right 88 and they'll be. They'll go sideways.

Wide right. Wide right. Exactly. And these are just off the top of our head. So I want to know, like, how many hockey games actually have a nickname to them like the Easter epic that you'd be like, oh yeah, here's a quick. And as soon as I say it, you know what the story is. And it doesn't feel like there's a lot.

And, you know, we're mixing a little bit. There's some are games and some are plays within a game that are. are just really notable. The first ones, when you mentioned this to me, they came to mind are the Good Friday Massacre and the St. Patrick's Day Massacre, which kind of tells you all you need to know about hockey. Yeah.

We've got two holiday-themed massacres, but Good Friday obviously was the Habs and the Nordiques back in the 80s, and the St. Patrick's was the Blues and the Blackhawks in 91, I believe, when they had a rivalry game in Chicago. And, you know, the Hawks fans were all very well, lubricated by that point than it was a big brawl. Beyond that,

Miracle of Manchester would certainly be one. There was also the I think that was it the Monday night miracle? The big news come back. St. Louis and Calgary. Yeah. And there's a handful of other ones where you can say like maybe not to the game,

but if I say the words, you know what I'm talking about. Too many men. No goal, I think. Or, you know, the crease game. game, you know, most people would know that that was, whether that was talking about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I saw somewhere, somebody mentioned Statue of Liberty, uh, for the Patrick Waw goal. That would be, that would be, that would be one. Oh, right. But other than that, there's not, May Day would be another one, I guess, but it's

short list. It is. I think we need to come up with the definitive list. The other one here, and I'm not trying to rub salt in the wound, but, but, but I think if somebody says to you, it was four one, you know the game, right? Like that, but but it didn't have like it didn't have a, you know, Boston Massacre or whatever. Like it didn't have a nickname to it other than it was for one, right? Yeah, which isn't a really great nickname. But I guess it, yeah. Well, I mean, we've we've talked about how nicknames have just kind of stopped being a thing over the years for the players.

So maybe it happening with the games too. But it's always, yeah, it's always fun. I have those like little things where you can just say like I'll throw one at you. I'm going to say something. and maybe to us outside of outside of where we are, this won't make as much sense. But if I say the words boo-hoo to you,

you still know, right? Owen-O-N-O-N-W, the flu game would be the other one that you would describe it as. But other than that, no, there's not too many. Even the, I'm trying to think, does the Red Wings Avalanche Brawl have a name that people really remember? Or is it, or is that one where you just say the date

to fans of those teams? I feel like it was kind of mean, malice at the palace was the basketball kind of Detroit version. I don't know if they had an actual full-on name for that. But yeah, there's been a few, but not as many as there should. We need to get back to nicknames in general, just all across the board. But maybe this is where we start. All right. Hey, listen, and that's actually where we're going to end.

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