The Athletic Hockey Show - ‘Absolutely deafening to absolutely dead’ and other thoughts on the Conference Finals

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

On today’s Tuesday version of the Monday show, Ian and Laz discuss Edmonton’s great Bistro Praha, fallout from the Oilers’ crushing loss to the Stars in Game 3 of the Western Conference Final, Jacob Trouba’s controversial hit on Even Rodrigues in Game 3 of the Eastern Conference Final, the need for a hockey rumors alert system, the 20th anniversary of Jarome Iginla vs. Vinny Lecavalier in the Stanley Cup Final, if the NHL has its own Angel Hernandez, and more.Plus, The Athletic’s NHL insider Pierre LeBrun joins the show to talk Brady Tkachuk and Martin Necas trade rumors, Mitch Marner’s status in Toronto, and Dan Bylsma as the likely new head coach of the Kraken, and The Athletic’s own Jesse Granger stops by to discuss who should start in goal for the Oilers in Game 4, Igor vs. Bob, and the latest Stanley Cup odds. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome back to it, everybody. It is your Checks Notes. Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show coming at you on a Tuesday. Because, hey, it was a Memorial Day on Monday. Mark Lassar actually spent the U.S. holiday north of the border. Last, when all of your friends back home in the United States, they're barbecuing, they're spending time with friends and family,

they're having fun. You're in one of the most northern outposts in Canada. What's that like for you spending a huge, because Memorial Day is a big deal. What's it like spending it in Canada? Everyone on Twitter was right. I must be anti-American after all. No, it's great.

Look, I got no complaints up here. I'm covering playoff hockey. I got the midnight sun here. It's like 11 p.m. and you can still be out on a patio with a drink in your hand and it's still kind of daylight. And the weather was here was nicer than it was back in Chicago yesterday. And I got to go to Bistro Praha, the single best restaurant in the NHL and has some goulash.

So you will hear no complaining for me. I saw your picture of the gulage. It's amazing. It looked very appetizing. My wife's actually from Edmonton, and I'm there quite a bit. I've never been there, believe it or not. I've heard you talk about this place. Yeah, years ago, Tracy Myers went back when we were still traveling full time together on the Blackhawks beat,

She found this place. We walked in on a road trip once. We walked in and Marion Hoses in there. Michael Roosevelt's in there. All the Czech and Slovak staff members on the team are in there. We're like, oh my God, this is going to be so good. And it was. Like, it's every Czech player and every Slovak player that comes through Edmonton,

eats at Bistro, Praha. Have we ever done this? I thought somebody floated the idea. I don't know that we did. But did we ever come up with like a, Ultimate, hey, 32 cities in the NHL, here's your guide for like sneaky good restaurants, sneaky good bars that are not, you know, the first thing on a Google search. Have we done that? We have.

I want to say it was either Josh Yoey or maybe Mark Antoine in Montreal. Maybe. I don't know what. I have a baby of this job, right? Like the beauty, like in Chicago, I have nowhere. I don't have any places in Chicago because I go and I cover a game and then I have to go home. home afterwards back to the suburbs, right? So like the other writers are like, hey, where should we go to eat? I'm like, I got no idea. But Edmonton, I got a place in, you know, Denver. I got a place

in 31 other cities that I don't live. And I got a bar. I got a restaurant and I got a sandwich shop in like 31 cities. It's the best. Best part of this job. Yeah. I think, yeah, we can we can double as like, you know, travel, not agents, but, you know, travel experts, that type of thing. And then the tricks of the trade and how to get a good rate at a hotel and, you know, how to do some frequent flyer ninja stuff to get you from Dallas to Edmonton when nobody else can make it. We got the tricks at the trade, man. Yeah, exactly.

So, hey, let's hit on some of these, I mean, the two conference finals, you're obviously doing Edmonton, Dallas. I was thinking about this last two. So now Dallas and the Rangers are halfway to winning their respective conference final. and the Rangers finished first overall and the Dallas Stars finished second overall

surprise trivia question for you, Mark Lazarus. Oh. When's the last time the Stanley Cup final featured the number one overall team against the number two overall team? Wow, so basically the top team

I, uh, Hawks Lightning Oh, I like these are good sound effects there. I'm going to go Hawks Lightning. The Hawks were the 60th that year. I got no idea. I couldn't even tell you.

It's so rare. Las, we're going to take you back to 1989. 1989. Calgary Flames, first overall, Montreal, Canadian, second overall. Now, part of it is because being first and second overall, you need one in one conference, one and the other, right?

So that's part of it. There's been years where that's not always the case. 2001, the avalanche finished first overall. The devils were kind of tied for second overall, but they were actually third overall. So the true answer is 1989. Am that crazy? 35 years.

I mean, that just underscores the randomness of hockey, the parody in the NHL. And also the fact, I honestly think the best teams in the league don't concern themselves with things like the top seat. Like when the Blackhawks and Kings were at the height of their powers. Those teams didn't care about the regular season.

They were conserving energy for the time when it mattered. It didn't matter if they were the four seed, the one seed, the six seed. They just, I mean, they prefer to be the number one seed, sure, but they didn't really care about it because they just knew they were going to make the playoffs. And they knew that wherever they were, and whoever they played, they were going to win. The best teams of the league treat the regular season like a dress rehearsal. Yep. And then when the curtains go up, it's show time.

And those other teams that just expend all their energy and the dress rehearsal, they put all the pressure. Then when the curtains go up, you got nothing left. I agree. They're gas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I remember Patrick Sharp once telling me, he's like, he's like, you know, everyone says that every game is life or death, but sometimes you find yourself in Carolina on a Wednesday evening in middle of January. You're just like, oh, my God, what the hell am I doing here? And they all feel the dog days as much as we do. Oh, man. Like it's, yeah, it's something to me. I looked at it up.

I'm like, when's the last time a number one, number two met each other in 1989? So let's start with the Western Final because you're in Edmonton. And I want you to take the listeners on a little bit of a tour of game three. Because last, I'll tell you, as a viewer, it looked like absolute bedlam. When McDavid makes it two nothing, you're like, wow, Oilers have come out flying. Dallas looks lost. they got nothing going on, and then everything obviously shifted in the second period. But like, what was it like inside that building?

Because it just, it was pandemonium. It was really one of the weirdest games I've seen in a long time. I mean, that first period, the Oilers plays was one of the most dominant periods I've ever seen. Like just absolute onslaught. It should have been more McDavid missed a, he kind of shanked an open shot with half the net open. He hit the side of the net. It should have been three nothing. Ottinger made three or four saves.

It could have been four nothing, five nothing. Just one of the most lobsided periods I've ever seen. And then the very next period was one of the even more lobsided periods I've ever seen going the other way, where Dallas has the first 14 shots on goal. They sort three goals in three minutes and 33 seconds to take the lead. And this place goes from just absolutely deafening to just absolutely dead. Like it was like this moment of, oh, shit, what just happened. And, boy, if that game doesn't encapsulate the Edmonton Oilers, I don't know what does.

They are, I think of that line in contact at the very end. You're an interesting species. You're capable of such beautiful dreams and such horrible nightmares, right? That's the Edminton Oilers. They are capable of playing at a level that no other team in the NHL can even dream of. Nobody can play the way the Oilers looked in that first round. Just slinging the puck around. McDavid's flying.

And, you know, because McDavid has not looked like McDavid the last couple of weeks. He looked like he was kind of dealing with something. But he had that speed burst again. Laboring. Yeah. But not last night. He looked at, and dry sidal firing away at Hyman at the net. And you're like, oh, my God, this team is perfect.

And the best thing I've ever seen, they're never going to lose again. But they never do it for 60 minutes. They never do it for seven games. There's always these lulls. And the Dallas stars are like just the total opposite. They're just rock steady, man. There was no panic in them. they were fine.

They're like this, they're kind of arrogant in this like beautiful way where they just, no matter what the situation, we'll be fine, we're going to win. And that panic was in the Oilers

and it wasn't to be found in the stars even when they were getting run out of the rink. So Robertson with a hat trick, Dallas wins, and a lot of people did it like the fourth goal on Skinner. And, you know, from a technical standpoint,

we'll chat with Jesse Granger about this later. But here's what I want to ask you, because you got a really good feel for the series. You're there, you're on the ground. Do you think there's any way Knoblock should go to Pickard and say, you know what? I think Calvin Pickard needs to start game four.

Boy, it's tough because Stuart Skinner's been really, really strong since he got his quote-unquote reset in the last round when Picker got in for a couple of games against Vancouver. Skinner's been matching Ottinger, kind of save for save. He's been excellent. And even last night, he makes that save on that breakaway by Mason Marchman to keep the game within striking distance. He made a couple of good stops. But oh, my God, that Roberson, that third Robertson goal was absolutely inexcusable, right?

I mean, he didn't steal off the pose. I'm not a goaltending expert, but he left a gap. And a guy like Jason Robertson's going to find that gap, even from like kind of the corner behind the net. He just tucked it in because he didn't seal the post. He didn't have his pad covering the post. He had his skate and that left an opening. And it's an absolutely inexcusable goal in like the biggest moment you could possibly have one. I don't think you can bench him for that because you bring in Picker Cold and all of a sudden, you know, the stakes are too high and Skinner has been too good.

But it's alarming. And, you know, after the game, Skinner kind of called out his teammates. he said that they weren't playing good enough in front of him. You go read Daniel Nugent Bowman's story today. He seems frustrated with the player in front of him. And if you start getting that kind of dynamic where the players or the skaters are mad at the goalie for missing a huge goal and the goalie's mad at the players

who are not playing well enough in front of them, this thing can spiral out of control real quick. But I'll tell you, I remember Ottawa Pittsburgh in 2017, conference final. And it's 2-1, Ottawa's up 2-1 in the series. And Pittsburgh, Mike Sullivan says, I got to go away from Flurry. I got to go to Matt Murray. It's just not work.

I just know it. And it turned the series around. I guess my point is this last. If you don't go to Pickard in game four, I think it's too late. Like, I think if you lose with Skinner in game four, you're done. I think if you lose with Pickard in game four, at least people will say, you know what? You know what I mean? Like, there's no, there's no margin for error right now.

Anyway, this is it. Typically, when you have a clear number one starter, he gets the next game, right? If he has a bad game, he gets one more game, but it's with a short leash. Maybe he gets yanked if it's bad early on, or maybe he loses the next game. But you're right. I mean, can you bring in Pickard in game five potentially down three to one if you are down three to one? In an elimination game like that, it's too late. So I think what you'll see is I think Skinner will get the start.

I do believe that he's been really, again, he's been. really good up until that. But I think there'll be a short leash. If Dallas pounces early, you might see Chris Knoblock pull that trigger and put pickard in mid-game. We've seen that before with teams. It's a tough spot to be in because, I mean, this is Stuart Skinner's team, right? This is his net.

He's had it for the majority of it, but that reset worked for him. It had his best stretch of the playoffs after getting two games off. So I don't know. I don't envy Noblock his. decision. 884. That's Stuart Skinner's career playoff save percentage, 884. It's not great. I'm no expert, but that's not great. No. And so I guess my point is, like, and I'm always curious, I wonder if you're, if you're Chris Knoblock, would you go to your leadership core and maybe in particular McDavid and Drysidal and say, what do you guys think?

Or do you feel like that's not a good move? Because then as a player, you're like, man, you're the coach. You make the decision. That should be on you. Or is it better to get a feel for how the guys, like, how the guys are really feeling about, like, I'm curious what you would do there. I think a more veteran coach might pull that card. But I don't know if a guy who's still in his first year and is still trying to establish

himself as the leader of this team. can put that on his players. I think you have to have a deeper relationship with those guys to be able to put that on his players because that's, that's an awkward spot to put your players in to make the, you know, to potentially throw your, your goalie under the bus. And, you know, look, Calvin Pickard is not, you know, Matt Murray behind Mark Andre Fleury.

I don't, I don't, he's not a guy that, that is going to inspire such more confidence than Skinner does at this point. I think Skinner is your guy. And I think you dance with the one who brung you at this point. point. I personally would not make the change. I don't expect that knob block. It would just communicate absolute panic, right? If you make that move now, you're panicking.

Your coach is panicking. Your team is panicking. You're freaking out right now. If you bring back Skinner, you show confidence in him. I think that's the safer play right now. Ooh, safe as death, though. Isn't that what they say? Safe is death?

Is Calvin Pickard life, though? That's a great point. I never thought of it that way. Let's look at the Eastern final for a moment. And again, Rangers are up to one in that one. Thanks largely to goaltending, special teams. It's the usual, right? Like, they're getting dummied at times in that series, aren't they?

Like that last game, that was the most hockey thing ever to have the Florida Panthers just annihilating them. And when they didn't get it done in regulation, you just knew the. Rangers were going to win in overtime because that's how hockey works. The team who deserves the win never seems to. I saw the one stat that

at the end of regulation time when Matthew Kachuk was on the ice. The Florida Panthers had 53 shot attempts four and four against. I don't know that I'd ever seen that from a player 53 to 4

and it's Shasturkin. He's keeping them in there. And then the Rangers get that. And by the way, I hate that that overtime goal, there's like a minute of, oh gosh, I don't know, is that a goal? Is it not a goal? I hate, don't you hate that? It's happening a lot more now where they do that. And they, you know, you got to make sure it's a goal. I get it. Got to make sure that it counts. But it's really sucking the fun out of some of these post games, right? It's really kind of buzzkill. Well, you know what? I'd like to, maybe we'll just bring our producers Chris Flannery on here because Chris is a diehard New York Rangers fan.

And I want to know when that overtime goal goes in, are you automatically fist pumping Chris? Or you're like, ah, crap, this might come back. Leapt off the couch yelling. I had my two daughters there, scaring the little one, the older one's starting to get it now. Watching it, I'm getting excited. And then it's like, all right, they're reviewing it. So now I'm sitting back on the couch. I'm holding her.

And they show that first replay. And I'm like, oh, that's a goal. We're good. But yeah, you know, you get excited, but you got to wait. And the thought popped into my head. God, that's going to be awful if it's a game seven or something. And you got to put the celebration on hold like that. It is going to ruin the moment a little bit.

We're trained by the NFL to get used to this, though, right? Because every time there's a score in the NFL, they review it. I think as sports fans, we're kind of getting used to the idea of, all right, it's like when you hear a trade and it's like, oh, it's pending the physical. We all know about pending the physical now. It feels like it's pending the review. The game is over. We're getting conditioned, but it does kind of suck some of that insta joy out of it.

Yeah, absolutely. Guys, isn't there, there couldn't have been anything worse than last a couple of days ago in the PWHL. Minnesota thinks they've won the title. Like they're celebrating sticks, gloves, everything on the ice. We did it. And guess what? Upon review, it's no goal. And then Boston comes back and scores.

It was, I mean, it was clearly no goal. this is why you do have the route. There's no way that goal could have stood. So it's the right thing to do to make sure that that doesn't get called in. You know, I think back to 2010 Stanley Cup final when Patrick Kane scored the goal that nobody saw, right? And I remember Droughton Duncan Keith about that. And Keith said he was like the one guy, if you look at the replay, he's like standing on the bench, looking around kind of squirly. And then he gets off the bench and he goes to the referees when everyone else is going the other end of guys to celebrate.

He said, I wasn't going to celebrate until I was sure what had happened. I needed to see the puck in the net because once you have that release, it's really hard to get back into like game mode. Once you think you've won, like your entire brain chemistry changes. And it's really difficult to get back in. When that happened in the PWHL game, it wasn't hard to predict what was going to happen after that. That's really difficult to come back from.

Okay. Chris, we're going to keep you on here for a second because I want to get a Rangers fans' perspective on this. I want our perspective be on this. And that's on Jacob Truba. And it was a super polarizing play, and that's all Jacob Truba seems to do. Every hit is polarizing. Every hits a referendum.

I watch the hockey night. If you're in Canada, you watch the Hockey Night and Canada panel where Jen Botterol, Kelly Rudy were like, that's a penalty, that should be suspendable, all that. Kevin BXA was like, that's a hockey play. It was a forearm, not an elbow, all that. He gets a minor penalty. He gets a fine. I mean, did they get this right?

Let's ask the Rangers fan. Let's ask the Rangers fan. I mean, listen, maximum allowable. It's $5,000. What if Paul already says to hat, he won't be able to feed his kids tonight or something? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, look, it's both, you know, it's both things. It's a forearm and it's an elbow. And you know what he was trying to do. He was trying to hit the guys that came across. And he got around him and, you know, he caught the back of his neck. I don't think it's the worst hit earlier.

in the series, Kulikov, I think, was a worse hit on Wenberg as he was coming across. He had him right in the head. It's the playoffs. Things like that are going to happen. I would have understood if they gave him five. To me, I think they got it right four minutes. But I'm not the type of fan that's just going to say that just because it's my guy. I honestly didn't think it was, you know, the worst hit I've ever seen in my life.

I thought four minutes was appropriate there. You know, I've been a critic of Truba in the past. I do feel like there's intent to injure a lot with him. I mean, look at the time he went horizontal to the ice trying to murder Martin Natchez in the second. That would have been a different story. Like there's some intent there, obviously. But I'm starting to think he's like a genius.

He's like a physical genius. He is so good at just not quite murdering someone, right? He is so good at like at delivering a hit that's going to hurt someone that's going to maybe take them out of the game that's going to deliver, that's going to send a message. But without it being so. blatantly obvious. Like every time he does this, it's like, well, if you break down the Zepruder film here, it's kind of delivered a little bit to the chest before he is elevated.

Like he is, it's like an art form. Jacob Truba delivering a high hit has become this like abstract art form. And I'm almost impressed by him at this point because it's never blatant. It's always borderline. And now when you give out 30 borderline hits a year, you know, there's something to be said about you as as being a dangerous player. But he's got like this, this finely tuned sense of space where he's going to do it and get away with it every single time. Like, I wonder, though, does he lose the benefit of the doubt?

If 30 times a year he's in the gray area. He should, but he never seems to. Right. Like the nature's one was crazy. This is the same conversation, though, is like goaling interference or whatever. It's like there is a gray area. If the league wants to take those types of hits out of the game completely, then make a rule about it and then he won't be able to do it.

But he, nine out of ten times, is actually making contact with the body first, like Glass said. And it's really not, you know, a suspendable play or a penalty most of the time that he does it. Now, I think he's scuffling a little bit in this series. He's getting worn down. And I think as that happens, I think, you know, maybe you see him cross the line a little bit to try to make that extra hit. We will see as it goes along. But, you know, that one's not the, I don't think that's the worst one I've ever seen. Yeah, lost in all this discussion about Truba is how kind of awful he's been in these playoffs.

He's really been struggling and they're sheltering as much as possible, but he is being exposed out there by both the hurricanes and now the Panthers. But Chris is absolutely right. This is where I lose a lot of people because I have said this for years, that the NHL just needs to make any head contact illegal, any head contact. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter all the little thing, the minutia that the player safety department, Just make it a clear black and white puck over the glass kind of thing where if you make any contact whatsoever with the player's head, it's a major, it's a match penalty, whatever you have to do.

That's what the NFL does. Look, the NFL, everyone complains about roughing the passer calls and targeting and all these things. But it has an effect. It protects the players. And, you know, if you breathe on a quarterback, you're going to get a penalty now. So players are more reluctant to try to hurt quarterbacks. And that's a good thing. We want to watch Patrick Mahomes play.

We want to watch Josh Allen play. We don't want to see these backups. So if the NHL wants to protect its stars, and it should, because all the leagues that are succeeding right now and growing, like the NBA and the NFL are protecting their stars, are letting them play, the NHL needs to just flat out say, you cannot touch another player in the head. I don't care if you're 6'8.

I don't care if he lowered his head, if his head was down as he came across the ice. You have to make it black and white. or we're going to have this discussion in perpetuity forever. Yeah. No, it's true. And that trooper hit was, it was broken down frame by frame. Look, I think he kind of got the shoulder first and then the neck and the –

Anyway, you're right. I'm with you there. Hey, listen, before we bring Pierre LeBron on, let's ask Chris Flannery a quick question. Hey, Chris, what is the Rangers record since you ran into Gary Bettman? Three and three and three. But they were seven and oh before you ran into Bettman. I know. I know.

I can tell you this. All the national writers right now who are going to be covering this final, I'm not one of them, are praying it's Dallas, New York or Dallas, Florida. You've got to get Edmonton out of there because you can't get from Edmonton to anywhere. So I can assure you that there's a lot of people pulling for the Rangers and there's a lot of people pulling for the stars.

Edmonton, Florida would be about as geographically inconvenient of a series as you could find, right? Yeah, that would be that would be a tough. I think in the past, I remember what was it, was it Carolina Edmonton years ago, in 2006, whatever it was. The league, I think, chartered a plane for the media because you just couldn't do it otherwise. Yeah, we did that. I was on the plane, Ottawa, Anaheim in 07. You can't get. Yeah, it's another one.

So we did the charter. but man, does the league still operate the charter or no? I don't know how that works. I've never been on a league charter. I don't know how that works. I've always covered, you know, L.A., New York, or anything from Chicago, you can get anywhere from Chicago. So I've never had that issue.

Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Edmonton, Edmonton is the one outlier. Edmonton, Florida. I think geographically, that might be the two furthest places in the league, right? South Florida. I would think Vancouver, Florida, I would have.

have to be the farthest, right? I don't know. I wonder. Yeah, Vancouver, Florida, or just because Edmonton's so far north. Yeah, yeah. Boy, yeah, you're right. Everyone's, everyone from a media perspective, I'm sure, is pulling. I love Edmonton.

I'm one of the people that gets most excited about coming to Edmonton, but if I were covering that series, I would be pulling for Dallas right now. All right, last, tell you what, let's bring in our insider. As always, it's Pierre LeBron joining us on this, Tuesday. Pierre LeBron, how are you, my friend? It is Tuesday, not Monday, right? Okay. Yeah. Just make me sure. We're thrown off. See, us Canadians were thrown off by the Memorial Day holiday, but we're good to go here. And hey, listen, Pierre, you had a really busy weekend,

kind of chasing down rumors and shooting down rumors. And let's start, you and I had a great phone conversation on Monday, too, because the Brady Kachuk story has kind of had some ebbs and flows and you connected directly with Steve Stales. And I'm wondering if you can, let me just walk our listeners through what is going on with Ottawa, Brady Kachuk, and the trade rumors. Well, I woke up Monday morning and the number one headline on what used to be Twitter was Brady Kachuk trade rumors. And again, that's not a reason to frame your day around it, but it seemed to be overtaking

your market anyway, Ian. And listen, this is our job. Let's be inquisitive. Let's ask questions. You never know. And, well, you heard what Steve Steyo said. He couldn't have been more direct. There was a little venom in his comments.

And it's interesting. You know, why won't this one go away? I mean, I mentioned into my piece that, you know, I think that Ryan Whitney's tweet really still has power from February, right? I mean, you know, that's a big podcast that has a, has a lot of reach and you know Ryan Whitney heard something from someone

and when he said that whether or not Brady Kachuk might get dealt for the March 8's trade deadline I think people are still feeding off that but all you can do in our position is ask questions and you know no one around the Kachuk camp is giving any indication

of him wanting out and obviously again Steve Stowe's could not have been more clear then back for the trade deadline when I asked him about it and yesterday when he absolutely shot down any question of even talking to a team about Brady Kachachke's trying to retool his team around his captain. So that's where we are. That's, that's all we know now in the moment. Pierre, you've been doing this a lot of times. It's before the social media age. Other than like, you know, the always chasing the Twitter scoop,

the most like ephemeral thing in the world, how has the nature of, I hate the word rumors, because we don't deal in rumors. We deal in, you know, speculation and reports. But how has the nature of those rumors changed in those years? Like, you have to chase something that, you know, you don't believe has any bearing in reality. Yeah, and sometimes I'll just ignore it because I know it's not real. But it's hard because to answer your question, Lazz, I mean, I think social media has, what happens is sometimes it ends up impacting the player or the agent or the team. They're hearing about it. They're being asked about it.

And so, you know, you're kind of left in a position. Can I ignore it? Or do I, you know, do I need to follow up? And by the way, of course, sometimes it's true. And as an example, the other, the flip side of my rumblings yesterday were on Martin Nietzsche's. There are legs there. There is juice there in terms of his future, which is uncertain now in Carolina.

So, and again, that was more started by his own father, giving some pretty interesting and comment in the Czech media. But, you know, it has changed. I mean, I don't know that, you know, before social media that you be running around chasing as many things, but also the reality is trade rumors have always been around. They just have a different way now of gaining some magnitude. Well, let's talk a little bit about Martin Aitchis,

because as you said, the Brady Kichuk stuff doesn't seem like there's any smoke around there, but Martin Natchez might be a full out fire. I mean, he's an RFA, so there's a little bit of uncertainty about, you know, where the future is for him. But like, what's the market? Like how many teams you think might be in on a guy like Natchez?

I don't think that interim GM, Eric Tulski's phone has stopped ringing about Martin Nichis since last week. Yeah, I think that hurricanes are fielding a lot of calls from what I can gather from talking other front offices around the league. If anything, teams just wanting to know what's going on. So it may not necessarily lead to every single team calling back again, but there is interest. And from rebuilding teams to contending teams to teams right on the bubble,

he's a player that is pretty dynamic. And I think he's a player from talking to a couple other front offices yesterday that they feel in a different environment could really be unlocked to another level. You know, I mean, for whatever reason, Martin Nietzsche and Rob Bremdimore hasn't been a seamless fit. And he ends up playing on a third line in the playoffs. You know, a lot of teams view them as a frontline offensive player and in a different environment, you know, a higher production player. But that's why the hurricanes have told all these teams that have called, my understanding is, yeah, we'll listen on trade operas, but just know we're not doing a futures deal here.

We want a star caliber player in return as part of this conversation. And that's where it's going to get difficult, I think, because first of all, if you're a contender, then what's the point? I mean, if you're trading Apple for Apple, how much better are you? So that's where I'm intrigued to see where teams come up with a way to entice care. line into a trade here this offseason. Yeah, I mean, I look at my own backyard, like a team like Chicago would love a guy like Marty Natchez, a young, really talented guy to kind of answer their top six to play with, either Bedard or Frank Nazar.

And they've got first round picks to spare. But if that's not what Carolina is looking for, I don't know who's going to make that trade. Who's going to trade a quote, quote, star caliber player for a guy who might be a star? Well, they might take a top five pick, though. Well, not that one. I meant Tampa Bayes, 18. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I meant more like a mid to late first round pick probably doesn't cut it,

but you start talking top five, top 10. That might be equivalent to getting a pretty good player. Yeah, you know, it's an interesting dynamic. I mean, of course, the hurricanes could play hardball and say, dude, like your RFA, like show up to camp or stay home, too. I mean, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. you know you've got a mercurial owner and tom dundon so that throws another wild card into who knows how this plays out and you have an inner-in young gm who's never been gm and eric tulski right don wadell's

gone i mean this is where you truly wonder how much carolina will miss a guy like don wadale is how he would navigate something you know this intense and and and because here's what we're finding out now in the last few days uh is confirming what we've been here's hearing and whispers throughout the years that I think that Martin Nietzsche has wanted a change of scenery for the better part of a year. Like this isn't actually new. It's just that now I think it's reached its, you know, perhaps its highest level of frustration for him. So again, yeah, fascinating story is still developing. You know, you mentioned Eric Toltsky's name a couple of times, Pierre. And you've also said interim GM. Do you expect that label to stick with him? Like,

How do you see that playing out? Because we have the draft and free agency coming up here in a few weeks. Yeah. Hard to say. Dundon hasn't said, I will tell you, I know from hearing from other teams, Tom Dundon is talking and looking at other candidates. So don't think it's a slam dunk that Eric Tulski becomes the full-time GM. It's certainly possible.

I think the hurricanes are super high on him. But just as a matter of fact, there are conversations happening. involving looking at other candidates. So, yeah, TBD on that one. Boy, that's a tough spot to be in as a GM. You're trying to make significant moves that could greatly affect your franchise for years to come.

And you don't even know what your authority is. You don't even know how long you're going to be in that job. Maybe it'll be a president of hockey ops above you. I mean, that's an odd spot to be in for Tulski. Yeah, and it's interesting. You kind of wonder, well, why didn't he just get it? You know, he's interviewed for other GM jobs. We know that.

In fact, I think he interviewed in Chicago, right? He did, yeah. But he's also young. And so you're Tom Dundon, and you just parted ways with one of the most veteran guys in the league. I don't know. It's interesting. But I think you will start to hear some other names here as time goes on. You know, Pierre, there was a picture that was floated out on the weekend of Craig Baroube.

looks like he's having a coffee or breakfast or lunch with Mitch Marner. And, you know, Eric Duhachuk has a mailbag today in which, hey, looks like 30 fan base, 31 fan bases feel like, hey, I should have Mitch Marner. Look, and I know that this, we're in the heart and the height of silly season here. Is there anything that concrete that you're hearing about Mitch Marner or is this a, hey, everyone just needs to take a big deep breath. There's a new regime in Toronto, and this might take some time to play itself out.

Yeah, I mean, I think you just answer the most important part is that the speculation got way ahead of the reality. There will be legitimate speculation involving Mitch Marner. But the reality is the least front office was so focused on the coaching change and the coaching search and higher. That's all they were really on to begin with. And then late last week, they had their scouting meetings, both Amateur and then pro-scouting meetings. And that was important because in those pro-scouting meetings is when you start to identify a potential game plan and pathway for this summer,

all the different things they may try to do, including upgrading their goal-tending and so on and so on for the lease. But of course, there would have been conversations about Marner in those pro-scouting meetings. So we'll see where this goes. I wrote about this last week, and the reality is this could still go every single different way that you can imagine. But one of the things that I was told last week that I think is super important to underline here, regardless of how this ends up, is that I was told that Mitch Marner and his agent, Darren, Ferris, aren't working on a list. You know, Matthew Kachuk and Newport Sports worked on a list two years ago and then handed it to Brad Trulving,

ironically enough, and said, okay, we're not signing an extension, so it's up to you whether you want to trade us now or not. But here's a list of teams, and they wanted to work with the flames. At the end of the day, it ended up being a two-teen derby between Florida and Carolina from Matthew Kachuk. What I'm told right now, and this could change, but as of now, or I guess as of last week, the Marner Camp is not working on a list because their viewpoint,

And I think this has been communicated to the lease run offices. We have another year left under a deal and we intend to honor it. And it's important to note that because Mitch Marner has a full 100% no move clause. So what I got from that, and again, early days here, but what I got from that is that I think the Martyr Camp is saying it's on you guys to come to us with a potential trade. We're not going to instigate it. And so the onus is on broad shielding. the lease front office. Do they just decide to keep him and play this out into next year when both Tavares and Marner's deals expire? And yeah, it would be a killer for the Leafs to lose Mitch

Marner for nothing. But 11 million in cap space for Marner and 11 million cap space for Tavaris is not nothing the way the NHL works. Or do they try to extend Marner this summer one year out? or do the leash sit back and see which team or teams come at them with something interesting and then they can bring that to Marner? And I think all those are still on the table. Everything I just talked about is still in the table. The Leifers are working their way through how they think they should handle this. And one of them is Marner just comes back and plays out his deal.

That's one of the many options. I think what I'm going to do after this podcast, I'm going to create a burner Twitter account. I'm going to start a rumor that Kyle Davidson is offering. the two and the 18 and a four-way deal. He's going to get Marner, Brady Kachuk, and Marty Natchez, just to ruin your two weeks off here before the final. I want all of this to happen after July 2nd, by the way. I want every single blockbuster to happen when I will not be on my phone.

I don't care how big the deal is. I will not be involved. I can guarantee you after July 2nd. Oh, man. Hey, listen, I guess before we let you go, the Seattle Cracken. We were wondering who's going to end up as the head coach there. And like Dan Bousman was an interesting guy.

He won a Stanley Cup in Pittsburgh, went to Buffalo, didn't work. And it kind of felt like Pierre he was off the radar. Like he didn't hear his name very often. But, you know, what are you hearing about how maybe Dan Balsman in Seattle came to be? Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know that I would have bet on that being the end result because Seattle did interview Tom McClellan. you know, they interviewed Jay Leach internally.

And I just kind of wondered, I mean, I don't know. My pick might have been Tom McClellan, but, you know, they obviously know down Balzma from him coaching their HL team. He's won a Stanley Cup, as you mentioned. And they're clearly impressed with, you know, what he did down there. So I'm happy for him. I mean, he kind of wondered after the Buffalo thing if that was it. It's a fleeting thing, right?

When your brand takes a hit as a coach, you kind of wonder, you're getting back in or not. And obviously he is. But yeah, it's stringed higher. And I think guys, I mean, you know, I think there's a lot of pressure in Seattle to have a bounce back season here. I know that from the outside, we just look at them and say, hey, they're a competitive expansion team.

They made the playoffs last year, you know, set back this year. But, you know, they got young guys coming. I don't think that's how they look at it from up top in Seattle. I think there's pressure to win. I don't know if that comes from being compared to their expansion cousins in Vegas, but I sense some pressure there, this offseason in Seattle. Yeah, perfect. Hey, listen, Pierre, we'll leave it there.

Jam-packed with information, as always. Have yourself a great week, and we'll catch up with it again. Well, I guess in six days. In six days, we'll do it back on one day next week. Thanks for this, and yeah, we'll hit you up next Monday. right on guys thanks for having me all right always great to connect with uh with pierre lebrun and you know by the way just just to circle back on something real quick to las on the brady kachuk rumors i feel really bad like so jeremy rutherford who obviously covers the st louis blues

for us and and jr's really connected oh the kachucks are kind of hockey royalty in st louis so and jr's very connected he knows what's going on with them and and rutherford is on ESPN radio in St. Louis last week. And the host asks him on live radio, hey, I'm hearing rumblings that Brady Kachuk is, you know, maybe on the move and what do you think it might take to get him or whatever. And Rutherford

basically says, look, I got no concrete information to say that that's true. And then he also answered the question, but it was all hypothetical, but his main point was, I don't think that's true. I haven't heard anything. I'm like, well, social media went off.

It's unbelievable. Rutherford is so he is about as measured and as reliable of a reporter you're going to find. Like who thinks of Jeremy Rutherford, rumor monger, like, he doesn't do that. He doesn't do that. We need to come up with like, we need to like educate fans. This will sound pompous. But we really do. We need to come up with a hierarchy and of what to believe and whatnot.

If you see the word rumor, it's not serious. No serious reporter ever uses the word rumor. Because rumors are inherently untrue. It's baseless, right? It's just people talking. Then you got speculation. Speculation means, all right, there's some talk in hockey circles. People that are plugged in are talking about this a little bit.

There's speculation around the league. There's something like the rumblings. That's like a Pierre LeBron trademark. A rumbling is speculation going to another level. Okay, that's happening. We're hearing that. And then you got to get to like reports. Reports mean an actual report.

with actual sources is saying that this is happening. And then there's certain reporters when they say reports, that means it's already happened and they just can't say it yet. Like we need to like come up with a hierarchy of terminology because I hate it when someone on Twitter asked me like, hey, what do you hear about this rumor that the Blackhawks are going to pull Wayne Gretzky out of retirement? I just want to yell at them.

Like, there's no such thing. If you're reading a website that puts rumor in a headline, that is not a legitimate website. Stop taking it seriously. the hierarchy we're going it starts at the bottom is rumor it moves up to speculation then there's rumblings can i slide chatter in there in there it works i feel like chatter chatter chatter is like the generic form of rumblings like rumblings is is Kleenex and uh chatter his tissues yeah whispers whispers is another one there's a lot of tire kicking that happens right that's one of my favorite

one of my favorites that you know it's all going to happen is when one of the insider says let's see where this goes. Hearing. That's code for, I'm hearing, I'm hearing, I'm hearing. Yeah, we need to create, it's almost like, you know, the color code is down the road. The color coded, you know, emergency alert system or whatever. We need to create the rumor, you know, the kind of the how to deal with rumors. I get insulted by the word.

rumors. And this is where I become a pompous douchebag, but I get insulted when someone asks me about rumors. We're journalists. We don't deal in rumor. That's not what this. And I understand that the language evolves and things, you know, a word can be can be, can be a different meaning can be implied. But the word rumor to me, it's, it's trash, right? It just means like idiots talking and there's no real base to it. I just, I hate that word rumor. I hate it. This Brady Kachuk thing was rumors. Now I feel like I wanted to deliver a vinyl album of Fleetwood Max rumors to your house. Or at least play the adults on it.

Rumor has it. Rumor has it. Oh, man. Hey, I got something really fun coming up on Wednesday in the Athletic. And I worked on this with Joe Smith and Eric Duhatchick. It is a really cool. So Wednesday last, and I realized this last week, I actually got the ball rolling late on this. And I thought, there's no way.

we're going to pull this off. Wednesday marks the 20th anniversary of Jerome McGinla versus Vinnie La Cavillet in the Stanley Cup final. Oh, wow. And so I said, it does. And I said, what if we try to track everybody down and I got La Cavalier,

DeHachik got a Ginla, Joe Smith got a bunch of guys, and we're going to have an oral history of that fight. And that's coming up tomorrow, which will be fun. Looking forward to that. But Vinila Cavalier was my first ever real interview as a professional sports writer. In my first job.

Tampa, obviously. Yeah. I believe so. Yeah, I was in Pittsburgh at the time. And I was like freelancing for a radio show. And they gave me a sit down with Vinila Cavillade. I talked from like 20 minutes. And I'm like a kid.

And it was like the first time I got to sit down with a pro athlete and really have a conversation with him with Vinila Cavalier. Really? He's awesome, though. Isn't he? He was great. He was great. He was great. Yeah.

He was. So La Calleier Aginla, the 20-year anniversary of, you know, a lot of people will say that's a great example of why you need to keep some element of fighting in the game to allow for that raw passion, emotion that's not staged. But so I decided to dig in a little bit on this too last. So, again, surprise trivia for you, Lance. I'm not to put you on this spot. But I realize I'm not Sean McIndoo, right? Yeah, I do. Yeah, although maybe I should bring them back for another debate you and Mac can do

and I can set on the sidelines. So in the salary cap era, I want you to guess how many fights have there been in the Stanley Cup final? So meaning like actual, hey, you get five, you get five, not roughing, five minute majors for fighting. In the salary cap era in the final, how many times have, has there been a fight? I would say there's probably 12, 15, something like that. That's what I figured. The answer is seven. Wow.

Okay. And then to take it one step further, how about this for weirdness? Every single fight in the Stanley Cup final in the salary cap era has happened in the latter stages of the third period. That doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah. Of essentially a blowout game,

meaning one team had a multi-goal lead. So since La Cavillier fought a Gidla, Le Cavillet and a Gindler is the last time there's been a first period fight in the Stanley Cup final. Holy cow, that's amazing. Like the whole idea of like message sending at the end of a game is one of my least favorite things about hockey. It's so dumb.

Oh, yeah, you kicked our butts. We lost six to one, but I punched you. That'll learn you. We came out ahead now. It's so dumb, but that doesn't surprise. Yeah, because, and this is another argument against fighting, isn't it? That when the games really matter, the players don't fight. Bingo. Bingo. Anyway, so we're looking forward to that. As part of it, we tracked out a bunch of guys.

Like I said, De Hachik got a Gindline, Craig Conroy. I got Andre Waugh, Vinila Calvier, Joe Smith, got a whole bunch of guys. So I also got Kerry Fraser, who refereed in that game. Okay. And the reason why I want to bring up Carrie Fraser is Angel Hernandez, who might be the most, what's the word here? Reviled. Yeah, reviled, you know, referee, umpire, whatever in professional sports is walking away from Major League Baseball. And 32 fan bases are erupting in cheers because they're like,

that guy's the worst strike zone, worst everything in the sport. No one's ever defended Angel Hernandez. And I wanted to know, is there an NHL equivalent to Angel Hernandez? is there one guy who everybody is convinced is out to get their fan base in the last 20 years. Is there one guy? I mean, it probably would have been Tim Peel, right? Like, everyone always had, like, like, it's rare for people to have an opinion on an NHL referee. Like, I feel like baseball, like, you think of like, you know, of, what's it in West?

And like, there's guy, like, Cowboy Joe West, whatever his name was. You know the umpires. You get to know them. They have a little personality the way they call. In the NHL, everyone can name exactly one referee, West McCauley, because he's got that kind of showmanship, right? Everybody knows West McCauley. And the players like Wes McCauley.

He's a good referee. But I don't feel like most fans, like when I was a kid, I remember I hated Paul Stewart and Don Colarski and Andy Van Hellamon. They were all out to get my beloved Islanders, all of them, every single one. I don't feel like fans are that connected to the officials these days. But we do that poll every year where we ask a lot of players around the league. that anonymous poll. And what I hear the most,

they don't even know, they don't even know his name. I just hear the French guy. That's the answer I always seem to get when we're doing these things. Yes. And they're talking about Justin St. Pierre. Yes.

He is the most reviled referee, I think, among NHL players. But it doesn't carry to the fan base the way it does in baseball, I feel. I think in Vancouver, they are convinced Kelly Sutherland is out to get them, right? Wasn't that a big thing this year? They're like, oh, my God, Sutherland is roughing our game, right?

But there's not one guy that's like Angel Hernandez, right? No, there is. I think Tim Peel was the referee with the worst reputation among fans for years, and he's obviously out of the game now. But yeah, every now and then, this seems to happen in the Canadian markets. You guys are a little more intense where you start like, oh, this guy's from Boston. He's clearly going to be favoring the Bruins.

This isn't fair. You start looking up their backgrounds trying to figure out. where the conspiracy lies. I feel like we don't do that as much in hockey, but there's still pockets. Let's bring in our pal Jesse Granger. Las, like we always do to kick off the week on the Athletic Hockey Show.

And as always, Jesse joins us as a presentation of BetMGM, the exclusive betting partner with the Athletic. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday. How did Jesse Granger spend the holiday Monday? Morning, guys. I went to the driving range, hit some golf bowl. hung out around the house.

Not a lot going on. Not a big holiday weekend, but it was relaxing. Nice. Is there one referee that Vegas fans have nothing to complain about? There's no referee that Vegas fans think is out for them. Do they have one guy? I mean, I would say that the most controversial, all maybe in the league since the Golden Knights,

in the last seven years since they became in the league, was the Golden Knights, Game 7, O'Hallor. Dan O'Halloran. Yeah, the reason we review major penalties now was the major penalty that was not a major penalty, but was given to San Jose. And then they scored four straight goals to come back from three nothing late in game seven. So I would probably say Dan O'Halloran since he made that call, it's still to the point where before a game, if I tweet out that Dan O'Halloran is is roughing the game, the replies to that tweet from Golden Knights fans will be, oh no. One of my favorite what-ifs was back in 2013, it was actually this time of year, that Blackhawks Red Wing series. Do you remember in game seven, you know, Brent Seabrook won at an overtime, but with like a minute and a half left in regulation, Nicholas Jalmerson scored what looked like the game-winning goal.

And everyone's going nuts. And Stephen Walkham, who's dealt like the head of officiating the NHL, 100 feet behind the play called some stupid penalty on Brandon Sodd and Kyle Quincy for fighting. kind of shoving each other along the boards, nothing to do with the play, and the John Morrison goal got wiped out because of it. And I remember, I talked to Stephen Walker about him years later about it, and he's like, they were talking about it,

I think they're getting security for him if he had to leave the building, if the Chicago had not won that series, because he would have decided the series on one of the worst, most meaningless calls you could have possibly ended the series on. So, like, there's a lot of guys in the dust pin of history

where they're, they're bailed out by the way the game plays out. But Stephen Wacham would have been the biggest villain in Chicago sports history had Chicago lost that game. Hey, Jesse, we need you to play a little tiebreaker for us. And we kind of tease this earlier in the show. As we headed to Game 4, Edmonton and Dallas, I'm not going to tell you which one of us is voting which way.

But I want you to put yourself into Chris Knoblock shoes. And I want you to tell us who would start game four in goal for you. Would it be Stuart Skinner or would it be Calvin Pickard? Game four. Who you got? Skinner for me. These discussions for me, I usually, I almost always will go with the goalie I think is more talented.

And yes, Calvin Pickard had a couple good games there. And yes, Stuart Skinner has a below 900 safe percentage. But to me, if I'm the Edmonton Oilers, I think the best, our best chances of winning a Stanley Cup are for Stuart Skinner to kind of figure things out and play to his potential. So I'd go with him. Wrong answer. Let me ask you, Jesse, do you sit there like when you're watching a big game like this that you know the entire world is watching?

Are you just sitting there like kind of waiting for the bat signal? And then when Jason Robertson stuffs the puck from behind the net because Stuart Skinner did not properly seal off the post, do you just like get so excited and like pounce into action and start clipping? Oh, I got it, baby. It's my time to shine. You have no idea how accurate that is. You have no idea how accurate that is.

Last night, last night, I was, I was sipping on a beer watching that game. And the replay happens. And I see that it was because his skate was, what, what Laz is referring to for everyone listening is, Skinner went into RVH, but he sealed the post with the skate blade as opposed to putting the toe of the pad, toe lock, what we always call it. And yes, I clipped the VH. and I looked at my wife and I said, oh, I have the best tweet ready for this. I'm so excited. I get to give some technical goalie. And that and that tweet performed well. I have been between Lungwist on the broadcast has been a dream for me because he more people,

the masses are talking about goalie technicalities than I at any point I can ever remember. And it is so much fun for me. I absolutely love it. I love the response that that tweet got. People were so excited to like, oh, look at these details. can't believe goalies are thinking about these little things during the game. It's so much fun. I love it. Henrik Lundgrens really has been a godsend for the goalie community, hasn't he? He has. He's made like

goaltending cool again. Yep. Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you, your tweet, it ended up in a group chat of mine, Jesse. Somebody was like, wow, look at this, like, you know, look at this angle and look at this explanation. And I'm like, I know that guy. It was a group chat with, But anyway, so, okay, so you're saying you go back with Skinner if you're, if you're Edmonton. But boy, like an 884 safe percentage in the playoffs, that doesn't scare you at all. It hasn't been good, but I will say this. I think that, and I remember back before Flurry was even playing for the Golden Knights, I used to make the same argument for Flurry when he played with the penguins.

The stats aren't great, but you play for a team that is not playing in a way that is for good, is good for goalie stats. I think the Oilers play a style where they possess the puck a lot. You don't get a huge volume of shots. But then when they do give up a chance, because they're so aggressive offensively, it's a really dangerous chance. And you give, so I will give him a little bit of a pass on the safe percentage. I don't think that the Oilers play, like as opposed to some teams where it's like any

goalie could have a 920 safe percentage playing behind that team. I think it's the opposite for him. He hasn't played well. I'm not making all the excuses for him. He needs to play better. And they're going to need him to play better than this for them to in this series. But to me, Skinner is a big, technically sound goalie who moves well for his size. I just think Calvin Pickard might be able to get it done for a game. I just don't see Calvin

Pickard coming in and you winning the Stanley Cup with Calvin Pickard back there. Whereas I think Stuart Skinner, at his best, if you get the best Stuart Skinner, you can absolutely win the Stanley Cup with that. So to me, I'm just playing the ceiling, I guess. I'm playing for the ceiling. See, I was right, Ian. You were wrong, as always. Yeah, another. I mean, I'm wrong about these all the time too, so maybe we're both wrong and Ian knows what he's talking about.

No, I don't think so at all. But, but like, I was saying like that the way Edmonton came out in that game, you couldn't have scripted a more dominant start at home, more impressive, all that. Like, you've watched Edmonton in the playoffs over the years, Jesse. Like, how do you come back from that?

Like, what do you expect now for a bet? Take the goal heading out of the equation. Do you trust these guys or can they win three out of four? It's going to be tough. I mean, Dallas is so good. It's like we, we love to, whether it's the Maple Leafs or the Oilers, we love to crush how, like, we love to talk about how they choked in the playoffs or whatever, but they are just running into a really good stars team that is like the knocking on the door

and is ready to win a Stanley Cup itself. I think I read Laz's story and I totally agree that it seems like Dallas is engaged and has their foot on the gas pedal for 60 minutes, whether they're winning, losing, whatever. And it just seems like Edmonton doesn't for whatever reason. And is that because they don't have the depth to roll the lines over? And like maybe it's not a case of like they don't want to. It's the fact that they just can't because they don't have the depth. And I know Oilers fans get so mad to me every time I say they don't have depth, but they don't. They're too reliant on on those two guys. And I just think that it's tough for them to maintain a great game for 60 minutes. It's very

difficult with the construction of their lineup for that team to do that. And for that reason, I think Dallas wins the series. Connor McDavid's awesome. So if there's somebody out there that can pull this thing out, it's that guy. Yeah, we're an hour into this podcast. And we haven't mentioned Robe Hince's his name. He's just maybe the most underrated player league. And he comes back and everything just falls in the place for that Dallas lineup when you put him back in. All of a sudden, Wyatt Johnston's your number three center. And you can just keep rolling and rolling and rolling and roll in these lines, they're just relentless these Dallas stars. And now they're

fully, you know, at their full strength again, it's, I, look, I love this Oilers team. They're one of the my most favorite teams to watch. When they're flying, they're like nobody else. They are not going to beat the Dallas Stars three out of four. It's just not going to happen. And like the depth, Evgeny

Dodonoff on the fourth line. He's not a great player, but he, he creates an odd man rush, a two on one, a breakaway. He creates a great A chance, at least once a game, sometimes multiple times a game. If you've got a guy on the fourth line that you can say tonight, he's going to give us at least one high danger chance, maybe two or three, that is a nightmare to play against. If that's the fourth line winger. Yeah, nobody on Dallas, none of their forwards plays 20 minutes a game.

They're all in the teams from like the top to the bottom. It's an incredible roster. Let's look at the Eastern Final for a second with you, Jesse. And I'm wondering as a goalie officianto. What do you think about a nine-goal game involving Bobrovsky and Shasturkin? Because you know, you would think, okay, goals are under premium. These guys are two of the best in their craft. And they get a nine-gold game.

And they were great. They were great in that game. They were very good in that game. And especially, yeah. Yeah, the first two games were, the goalies were amazing. I mean, I tweeted out the stats. They were, they're both at like a 960 save percentage. And they've saved four or five goals above expected

in only two playoff games to start the series. And then I agree. I thought they played well in that game. Sometimes the offenses are just awesome. And sometimes you don't get the bounces. I think that they were both good. And it's funny, Bobrovsky, all playoffs, I felt like he's had his best games in those types of shootout games.

There were a couple games against Tampa, the one where he made the spinning save that everybody has seen a billion times since then. That game, he was amazing. I think he gave up three or four goals. He thrives. Sergei Babrovsky thrives in shootout games where you're going to face 10 high dangers. And if you stop six or seven of them, you're probably going to win the game. He just seems to be really well suited for those types of games.

That brings out the best. And Shastarkin's been awesome all postseason. I am loving that series watching those two guys. They are both so confident. You watch like when a goalie's not confident in himself, he kind of shrinks into the net. He doesn't want to go as far out there because he feels like he's going to get caught off of his angle. those two have no fear. Shasturkin and Bobrovsky, the way they challenge every shot,

they're skating out there to get their feet set at the top of the crease. They are so confident in their skating right now. They have no worries that they're going to get beat on the back door. And when a goalie's that confident, I mean, they're so tough to beat. Getting nine goals by them was impressive. All right. So hey, listen, guys, since we also do this segment with Jesse's part of BetMGM, the exclusive betting partner with the athletic,

as I mentioned earlier, Laz, to four teams, but two of them are halfway to the Stanley Cup. You're looking here now, Dallas looks like the favorite, at plus 160 to win the Cup. You got the Rangers at plus 2.30. No surprise, they're both halfway to winning their series. You got the Panthers at plus 380. And how about Edmonton guys, at plus 450,

all of a sudden to win this Stanley Cup? That plus 380 for the Panthers, I would, if I were a gambling man, I'd be all over that one. Yeah, I mean, Jesse, you're looking at these final four. are you thinking, wow, okay, all of a sudden, the Panthers are plus 380? Right. I understand why the Rangers Panthers is closer. You watch these games and it just feels like one bounce one way or another.

That series truly feels like a toss-up to be quite. Even though the Rangers are winning the series, it feels like a toss-up, whereas Dallas feels a little more in control. I understand why they're at plus 160 there. Yeah. Listen, Jesse, before we wrap up the show and say goodbye, I believe it's next week that you're going to that really cool, goaltending. Is symposium

the right word? Yep. USA Hockey goalie symposium in St. Paul, Minnesota. I'm leaving Thursday. Yeah. Can you, and we'll talk a little bit about it. Hopefully, if it works out for your scheduling to join us next week. But could you give our listeners a little sense, and even Lazzini, a sense about, like, what's the

genesis of this symposium? And what are they trying to achieve here with goaltending? Yeah, it should be fun. This is the first time they've ever done an event this big for USA hockey goaltending. They do have camps. every year, but they're usually more on-ice stuff. This time it's all off-ice. I think there is going to be some on-ice instruction,

but it's mostly just for coaches, goalie coaches around the U.S., whether it's from professional level, there's going to be a bunch of college guys there. And then there are some coaches that are like on the youth level. And basically, it's USA hockey has made some huge strides in goaltending. Like I just wrote a story about it this year when Jonathan Quick broke the record for most wins. I mean, you look around and, U.S. goaltending's never been better than it is right now with Connor Hellebuck, Thatcher, Demko.

They're probably the top two Vezna guys. Jake Ottinger has been awesome. Jeremy Swayman. I mean, there are so many good John Gibson, so many good American goalies. And they're trying to keep that momentum going. They want more depth. Like talking to people at USA hockey, they're happy with the elite tier of U.S. goalies we have right now, but they still, there aren't enough American goalies in the NHL, playing NHL minutes for their liking. They're trying to make that better. and they're just, they want a, they want a one message going out to the goalie.

So basically you bring all the goalie coaches, all the best minds and goaltending together in St. Paul for four days, presentations, you talk about just theories, things like that. And I think the motivation is to get everyone on the same page from the kids learning the techniques all the way up to the college players mastering them. If you get everyone on the same page, less ears in, or sorry, less voices in the goalie's ears, can help them a lot in their development. So I just think they're just trying to get everyone in the, in U.S. hockey on the same page when it comes to how to develop goalies.

It's going to be really fascinating for me to see, talk to some really smart people. Hopefully I understand the position better than I did before I go. This will be the nerdiest group of jocks in the history of sports because nobody's a bigger nerd than a goalie. Goleys are sick. You just, every time you walk in the room, you just see the two goalies. They're talking about the nerdiest shit possible. Yep, it's great.

What color are the pads? Oh, man, why did you tighten that strap on your leg pad more than the other one? Oh, man, now you can get little, yeah, oh, yeah, we can't get enough of it. It's going to be good. Oh, man. Imagine 200 Jesse Grangers under one roof. Just chatting away about gold heading. Oh, man, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Well, listen, we're hoping that we can connect with you next week. So safe travels to St. Paul for that. And Laz, safe travels for you in between Edmonton and Dallas. And who knows where you'll be next week. But fingers crossed, maybe we'll get a game six, game seven in that series. But, Laz, we're looking forward to to hit me up again next week. Absolutely. I'm going to go get some goulash.

There we go. That's the best. I had it last year when Vegas played Edmonton. We went for the goulash. They had run out. We were like, all right, that's all right. We'll wait for the next batch. How long does it take?

They said three hours. We're like, okay, we're not going to wait that long. They ran out of goulash? Yes, they ran out. So we all said, okay, well, if they, If we have to come back here for a game six, we're going to have game six goulash. And we did.

It came back for a game six, and we got the goulash, and it was amazing. Beautiful. Game six goulash. That seems like maybe Las needs that this year. It could be a game six. Never mind your spicy, pork and broccoli.

These goalies need to be having goulash before a game. That's right. I love it. All right. Well, thanks everybody for listening to this, well, technically a Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show coming at you on a Tuesday. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a five-star rating and review.

You don't have to wait too long. In fact, about 24 hours for your next edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. It's the Wednesday edition coming up with Sean Jan Tilly, Sean McAdoo. Laz and I, Jesse Granger, LeBron and the gang. We'll be back again on Monday.