The Athletic Hockey Show - Agent J.P. Barry on client Dougie Hamilton's deal in New Jersey: NHL Free Agency day one recap

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

On the season finale of Two Man Advantage, Scott and Pierre look back on a busy first day of free agency in the NHL. The guys discuss Dougie Hamilton's huge payday with the New Jersey Devils, with Dougie's agent, J.P. Barry of C.A.A.Scotty and Pierre look at the work Seattle did in signing goalie Philipp Grubauer and bringing in Jaden Schwartz and Alex Wennberg. Colorado having to react to the loss of Grubauer with the high price paid to acquire Darcy Kuemper.Lebrun praises the work done by Winnipeg Jets GM Kevin Cheveldayoff, bringing in Brendan Dillon and Nate Schmidt, plus the guys take a look at the work done in Carolina, Boston and Toronto and what is next for the Buffalo Sabres and disgruntled captain Jack Eichel,. Finally, Burnsie and Lebrun take your questions in the final instalment of 'Ask the Dorks' this season, on the Athletic Hockey Show. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody. Scott Burnside back for another edition of Two Man Advantage, the hockey podcast, part of the Athletic Hockey Show Network. Pierre LeBrun. Pierre, why do I have this feeling that you're literally standing at your front door in Toronto? You've got bags around your feet. Are you, like, holding the mic up while you're getting ready to go out the door? This is final podcast of the 2020, 21 season. I've got to tell you, I'm already a bit misty-eyed about it.

It's the final countdown. Do you know I had to look that up? I didn't know that was the band Europe. Did you know that? Yeah, man. I'm a heavy metal guy. Well, they weren't that heavy. You know I'm an 80s rocker.

I know I know that. When I used to rock the mullet, how's my singing? That was good. That was good. So tell me, are you a bit emotional? Like it's a, it's been a grind, right? I mean, you've been grinding.

I'm just very happy. Not emotional. No? No, but I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. You know, for everyone, it's been a crazy 16 months. And, uh, but the weird thing, uh, I think for, for a lot of hockey media is that, you know, 1920 just bled into 2021.

And, and, you know, some people took time off. And I hope they did because, um, I think it was important. to decompress if you had a chance. But, you know, I didn't. And a lot of people didn't. Like, I really went from the end of the, the end of the bubble to all the offseason activity last fall to are we going to have a season and what's going to season look like and doing updates on that.

And then into the season and then everything that happened this year. And it's just like, I'm just like fried right now, as are a lot of people. And, and it's just been an interesting 16 months covering a sport during a pandemic in terms of not having, you know, face-to-face access, or at least I have. And I know you started too in the last few months, but, you know, everything is still through Zoom or phone. So it's really been, I think, a year and a half that no one will ever forget in terms of covering pro sports.

But hopefully, you know, back to normal in the fall, although I don't know if there's any guarantee of that. Well, it'll be great because we can ask our guest today. super agent, J.P. Barry, who helped Dougie Hamilton, Inc. an absolutely Whopper deal with the New Jersey Devils on yesterday, the first day of free agency. So J.P. Barry is going to join us later in the show. And I'm curious to see what J.P. has to say about, you know, about the nature of the business and what it's been like to be an agent, you know, through all of this. So I'm, that's a good segue. Just remind me to ask that question when J.P. comes on.

But I'm like, okay, so we've got a lot to unpack the first day of free agency. And I, you know, I feel a little bit cranky. Maybe it's because I haven't had to do. I don't feel like I've decompressed yet. But, you know, I always laugh, especially as you pointed out in one of your tweets or in one of the notes packages, when the NHL took away the free agent window, which I thought was a great idea, right? Pre-Aid and should be able to go to a city and talk to owners and see things, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, when you take that away and I looked at my watch yesterday in about 1226 Eastern, I was like, oh, it's just about over, right? So, yeah, there's no tampering, right?

Guys aren't talking to each other. I don't know why that makes me mad, but it's one of those, you know, it's a rule, but it's not a rule. So I don't know why that makes me mad. But it was, we always use the term frenzy. I felt yesterday was, there was a frenzy. Where are you on the frenzy scale from yesterday? Yeah, that was busy. That was, and I think it's, you know, a couple of ages and GMs I talked with.

We didn't get that really last fall. And last fall, when we had free agency, the problem is people really didn't know if this season would actually happen. And why would I invest in players when we're not sure we're going to play games or play games without fans and no revenue? And there was sort of this frozen feeling last fall. And that's just clearly gone. I mean, it's business as usual again. And some teams are going to regret what they did because, yeah, it's business as usual, but the cap is still flat. So we'll look back on some of the things that transpired on the first day of free agency and say, oh, boy, that was a mistake.

But it was pretty wild and definitely some surprises. I think it's just such a fun story with the Seattle Cracken and, you know, as I wrote in my piece, my last column of the season. I just read it, by the way. The cracking coming off the top rope to really affect the goalie carousel and sign Philip Grubar. I mean, that really threw Colorado for a spin and forced them into a trade that while they had been on the backburner talking to Arizona for a bit here, that's not the price they want to pay. That was a high price for potentially one year of Darcy Kemper, although if he plays well, potentially more than one year. But it was amazing. The whole goalie carousel to me was fascinating prior to the day, really.

Yeah. Well, let's break it down a little bit because I'm with you, and you alluded to it in your final piece. You know, as a day went on and goalies were going hither and yon was crazy. And especially with Seattle, you know, having, you know, selected Chris Dreger, Vtec Vechek vanichek from Washington, look like they were going to go that sort of young, cheap, rude, and Joey DeCold. core of course the third goalie they picked but you know we'll we'll grow up in that system and you when they announced a grubauer late in the afternoon or early evening whenever it was was like okay yeah that's that really changes things and i and i really thought Seattle had a terrific

day adding jaden Schwartz um Alex Wenberg i thought was a nice ad there too yeah well and they're starting to fill out i talked about this on tSN signing off last night like Seattle started to answer some questions that people had after a rather quiet expansion draft night, right? Yeah, for sure. Again, Vegas kind of skewered our minds as to what we thought the modern day expansion process

was supposed to be like because they said it was so amazing what they did and putting their team together. But it just goes to show you there are different ways to do it. And now we're realizing okay, because you know, it was an A plus effort by Vegas in terms of the perfect way to launch their team. But the one thing they didn't do, and obviously it didn't hurt them because they went

to the Stanley Cup final, but the one thing they didn't do is dip their toes in free agency on July 1st, 2017. I mean, they signed Brad Hunt and a couple of depth guys, but I mean, they didn't in a meaningful way. And this is where Seattle, you know, as I like to say, Vegas did all its work at the front of their expansion draft process, and Seattle was doing all their work really at the back of it. So there may be two different ways here for two expansion teams to have success. So three very notable signings on the first day of free agency for Seattle. And I don't know that they're done, by the way. Well, and I think, you know, like it's, hey, it's way early, right?

I mean, training camp, what, I think September 22nd, if I'm not mistaken, that's when training camp starts. So a lot of water to pass yet. But when you look at that Pacific Division and you look at how this Seattle team is built as we speak now and the goal tending has the potential to be a, maybe A plus, but certainly a good A tandem with Dreeger and the Vesner Trophy finalist, Philip Grubauer, they're going to be a factor in that Pacific division. And it's the weakest division in hockey, at least on paper.

But I see no reason that Seattle will not be right in that mix. You know, Vegas is going to win that division. But in that two, three, four hole, Seattle's going to be right there. And I think it's, I'm so excited to see, you know, how the fans respond. what, you know, the treat that they're in for watching NHL hockey and watching this team play. So I'm excited for that. But I want to talk before JP Barry joins it, I want to talk a little bit more about the goaltending. Is there one, is there one that you were like, okay, well, we talked about Philip Gruber.

But, you know, of the many teams that were, you know, and we're not talking about a lot of teams who just added a backup. And we're teams talking about teams who made pivotal goaltention. moving moves that are going to have an impact on the balance of power and the landscape of the NHL next season and beyond? Is there one that you were like, wow, I can't wait to see how that turns out? Well, you know, certainly fascinated by the fact that essentially the hurricanes and Leafs traded starting goalies. Of course, he didn't do it directly, but via free agency, Freddie Anderson and Peter Marazick swapping spots and just so intrigued by all of that, both guys with a lot to prove.

Frederick Anderson with an injury marred season losing his starting job with Jack Campbell, but I think he's got tremendous bounceback potential. I think that's a sneaky good signing by the hurricanes, especially playing behind that blue line. And Peter Marazza, of course, lost his starting job to Alex Nadelcovic, of course, is no longer part of the hurricanes either. But, you know, obviously the least front office looking at all their options felt that this guy had bounced back ability as well.

So that whole thing will be measured all season long, I would think. And so much writing on that signing for the Leafs because, you know, Jack Campbell is such a wonderful story, but you can't trot them out every night. You know, they're going to have to take care of his body and his workload. And that's why Marazic is such an important part of that tandem. So that's a, that switch is absolutely fascinating to me for sure. And of course, at the end of the day, what the avalanche were forced to do, you know, you know, as I wrote, I think that this is a tough part of this time of year. There are no guarantees.

I'm pretty confident in my reporting and saying that Freddie Anderson was a pretty strong option for Colorado as well. Like, I think Freddie Anderson had Colorado and Carolina on the table. And the problem is the abs would only go there, of course, if they thought they couldn't sign Gruber. But at the time of the market opening, they were still knee-deep in trying to get the Gruberrae thing across the finish line. So what can you do? You can't tell Freddie Anderson to wait, five hours because Carolina would have moved on by then. So Anderson does the right thing. He signed in Carolina and then Colorado was really pot committed at that point to try to get the Gruber thing across the line. But they stood firm on not wanting to give him $6 million a

year, which had been a problem in that negotiation throughout. And, you know, I think their final offer to Gruberra was somewhere in the fives times five years, but he gets six years times five nine in Seattle. So by the time the dust clears on that, most of the goalie, most of the goalies, fun for agencies are gone, right? So the ads really had to scramble.

And the good thing is they had already talked to Arizona a few times. So it's not like it was a fresh conversation. But that price they paid was a first in Conno Timmons. My goodness. That's a high price. Well, you mentioned Carolina and not only do they sign Freddie Anderson. And two years, that $4.5 million, that's pretty respectable for a guy who's won a lot of hockey games.

I know the playoffs have been a different story for Freddie Anderson and the Leafs, frankly. But to me, the interesting part is adding Auntie Ranta, speaking of the Arizona Coyotes, I had Mike McKenna helping me yesterday doing some grading. And because there were so many goalies on the move that Mike McKenna's analysis was just so incredible. But I was interested, you know, Auntie Ranta's knock is that he's, you know, he lacks durability. He's, he's been often injured and it's probably what has kept him from achieving his real potential. But, you know, Mike McKenna was talking about just the high, high end for Auntie Ranta. And if both those guys stay healthy, Anderson and Ranta, you know,

I understand the questions about trading rookie of the year finalist, Nadelcovic to Detroit for, you know, pretty low return. Clearly not a long-term belief there. But boy, this tandem, if it stays healthy, to me that vaults Carolina, you know, into that sort of upper echelon of one and, you know, one A and one B or however you want to put in terms of goal-tending depth. And the hurricanes aren't done. I mean, especially after they traded Warren Forgole and lost Brock McGinnon for agency, underrated loss there in Brock McGinn.

He was really popular guy in that room. I think the hurricanes would like to add a forward. And as I reported last night, they're in on Brandon Saud, along with other teams. So there's no guarantee you. but that would be a nice addition for them. And by the time this podcast comes out and knows that SOD will have made his decision. But again, we'll talk to J.P. Barry in a few minutes here, but you can't certainly can't. You know, can't sugar code the loss of Dougie Hamilton.

That's a pretty special player. You know, they'll have to find ways to fill those minutes. And I guess he could argue if any team in the NHL could get box. after losing such a talented blue liner, it would be Carolina because of their, you know, their death led by Slavin and Pesci, et cetera, pretty shea. But nevertheless, I think his skill set was pretty unique in that group. Yeah, oh, there's no question. His numbers are incredible.

And the way he plays a game, Corey Massasak and I did a news pod last night and talking about, you know, how he's going to fit in on a New Jersey blue line has been. been really, you know, reconfigured. It's bigger. It's tougher to play against. There's lots of moving parts on the back end there. You know, Ryan Gray is coming over from Colorado. And Ty Smith is an excellent young defender on that blue line. And, you know, that young group up front to Jack Hughes, Nico Hescher, you know, I don't know whether there are going to be a playoff team or not, but I'll tell you, Dougie Hamilton is, I think, is going to help this team play meaningful games into February and March next year in a metropolitan division that's for me is really in a state of flux.

So yeah, I'm with you. So before we talk to J.P. Perry, before we leave the hurricanes, I was curious, you know, one of the moves that the Cains made, and it's a direct result of losing Dougie Hamilton, was to bring in Tony DiAngelo on a one-year, one million dollar deal, of course, a very polarizing figure banished from the New York Rangers last year. I sat in on, both the calls, both with Don Waddell and with Tony DeAngelo. And, you know, the team's not, you know, they're not naive. They understand there's going to be, there is already, and there will continue to be a lot of blowback about signing a player with Tony DeAngelo's history and his reputation.

Surprise on that. Do you think this is a good place for him? I mean, to me, if you're going to, you know, if there's a coach that can work someone through, you know, whatever Tony DeAngel has been going through and the issues he's had, Rod Brindorne might be that guy. But I wonder what you made of the DeAngel's sign him because he's basically been out there for, you know, for a long time since the Rangers decided they didn't want him as part of their organization. Yeah, I don't have a lot of thoughts about it. I think that, you know, his actions now moving forward are going to be pretty important.

I've got to make sure these aren't just words, right? For sure. And so he'll be under the microscope. I thought Sarah Sivian wrote a very thoughtful column last night about it, or Hurricane's beatwriter. But, yeah, listen, it's a risk. The Hurricane certainly would not have done this without a lot of, you know, a lot of background conversations. But you are, you know, you are taking a risk to the brand of the team

when you're doing something like this. And I think, listen, they weren't the only team. There was pretty solid interest in the player. Teams wanting to give him a second chance because, let's just be blunt, they understand that he's a talented player. But with that comes a responsibility of making sure that, you know, he lives up to all the things he said in that call yesterday. Yeah, no question.

And, you know, it's, yeah, I asked Don Waddell that. You know, why is this worth this risk, given all the work you've done in that community and rebuilding that brand? And, you know, we're going to find out. And we'll see whether that young man is good to his word or not. Before J.P. Barry gets here, I loved your year end or your final column. And you and I, you know, I know, I know they accuse sometimes two bodies, one brain. But you highlighted a team that I've been thinking about for the last couple of days and the work that the Winnipeg Jets have done.

You know, that's a hard market, right? It's just, it's hard to get people to go there. It's just, you know, and they've had some, you know, they've gone through, you know, some ups and downs with, you know, losing half their back end and Dustin Bufflett, all that kind of stuff. But I thought Kevin Shevold Day Off has had a tremendous off season and you highlighted this as well. But very quietly, that is a team that I would put, if not at the very top of the Central Division. you know, right now, but, but very close. And I think that's nice work for a team, you know, swept Edmonton the first round and then collapsed against the haves, but boy, I think they did a nice job in, in Winnipeg.

And the fans there should be pretty excited. Yeah, I thought Kevin Shelby off hit it out of the park. I really did. You know, as I wrote, like, I felt last fall after the off season, it's still weird to say last fall, but last fall was when free agency happened in October. And I thought the it team in terms of what they got. done was Montreal and you know ended up being quite an up and down year for the habs to prove that offseason would have that impact but they end up in the cup final and i feel that it team now is

winnipeg and you know the offseason is not over i guess i'm making a judgment in this moment in time but um i i just think for everything you just outlined scotty you know they're never going to be big players in free agency uh it's hard to get people to go to winnipeg and frankly it's hard to get people to go to a lot of the canadian markets but you know, the way they navigated those trades and, you know, let's put it this way. They added two top four defensemen for the totality of two seconds and a third. And that's just tremendous work in getting Nate Schmidt and Brendan Dillon and, you know, they were able to keep Dylan de Mello, who was exposed in expansion draft and kind of got lucky there.

But, you know, they lost a good player up front, Mason Appleton. But that's the lesser of two evils. I mean, they could not lose Demello. And so now they're, they've stabilized their blue line, which really was a problem since the summer of 2019. I mean, you know, they didn't know that Dustin Bufflin was going to show up to camp and say, I'm out in September 2019, right? And so before all that, they let Ben Chirot walk to Montreal, which they hated because they love Ben Chirot. Myers going to Vancouver that summer wasn't the end of the world. They were going to, they didn't feel like they would get in financially on him.

And then, of course, they were really forced into the Jacob Chuba trade. But the idea was that with Bufflin and Morrissey at the top of that group, they can get by. And then they lose Bufflin. And that was just, they really spent, I think, two years getting out of that crater, I think. And it affected their team. They weren't the same team because of the problems on the blue line. So I feel that this is an amazing recovery. Now you look at a team that is deep up front, of course, has a Vezna Trophy winning goalie,

and now has stabilized a blue line. I'm with you. I think they're right back to being a contender. All right, my friend. And speaking of the Central, we're going to talk to J.P. Barry here, as promised in just a moment. And we're going to take a break. But I don't want you to let me forget because I'm curious about a couple of other Central Division moves. And we'll kick those around after our conversation with J.P. Barry, Agent to the Stars. J.P. Barry joining us. So just before we came on, I was sort of joking that after, you know, Dougie Hamilton signs that deal. with the New Jersey Devils. Maybe you're just sitting at home. You got your feet up. Maybe you got a, no, maybe you got a latte or something going. But it strikes me, J.B., that the machinery of hockey, certainly from the agent's perspective,

never quite stops. And certainly as we're only into the second day of free agency, there's probably work ahead of you. But maybe walk Pierre and I and all our listeners through what that first day of free agency is like and specifically as it relates to. Dougie Hamilton's a big deal in New Jersey. Yeah, I mean, in general, we, you know, obviously we've been preparing for weeks and tapping into all our resources around the business about what people are looking for

and what positions they're looking for and types of players they're looking for. So we work as a team at CAA. So myself, Pat and Jim Nice and Ethan Fink also out in L.A. We're working together. So we were on a Zoom all yesterday starting, you know, very early in the morning. just to keep us connected. So as we know, we've all become more comfortable with working with Zoom

or something like that of the last year. But it puts us all in the same room. So I was, you know, they were listening to, you know, who I was making contacts with and vice versa, trying to figure out what to do for our clients.

So the whole day went that way, pretty much from early in the morning all the way to late last night, trying to see how many contracts we could do. And it was a good day. We knocked off several, but we have several more to go. And JP, maybe you walk us through the, you know, the Hamilton contract with New Jersey as best as you can, of course. Some things you can't share, I know. But even for people listening that that may not quite understand the intricacies of it all, like it's one thing to say, okay, it's going to be seven years and nine million AEV.

But even from that initial departure point, there's a lot of work to fill in the rest, right? I mean, is that part of what played out yesterday? Yeah, once we, you know, we engaged earlier. We had some talks. I mean, we felt there was a need in New Jersey and that they would be, you know, coming to the table and they did. They had a lot of interest. So once, you know, probably the first hour, like you're putting together the numbers.

And once we knew the numbers, however, for a contract that large, it did take a long time. I mean, we had to, I had some thoughts about how to structure that deal. we had to get through all the signing bonus versus salary structures. These contracts are also, there's guidelines. So, you know, in the NHL, if you front load a contract, then it's a little bit easier to structure it. So it's a little bit more difficult to structure it. So if you backload it, it's a little easier to structure.

But I'm looking at the breakdown that Darren Dregor put out last night. And it's interesting, a lot of the middle years of this deal, are the higher numbers both when you combine the, well, just in total compensation, right? And so sort of lower at the front, but lower at the back, interestingly. Yeah, I mean, what we did, actually, if you do the math on that contract, it's exactly the same in the front of the back. Right. Oh, okay. Yeah, basically, you know, 12 to 13 million, I guess. Yeah. What we did is, like, we tried to make sure that it wasn't front loaded. So we were able to kind of keep it the same, the front and the back. and my view of the way this contract should be structured is that the contract should be in the middle.

The team agreed also. I mean, it provides, doing that provides us some benefit because we know for the first time ever that escrow numbers are sort of locked in here in the next three or four years at least. You know, we could work with the escrow numbers that were there. And then also the team also preferred that the bulk of the contract we paid in the middle because as we've seen in the last few years, there's like moving a player at the end sometimes. And you have to prepare for these things.

Like it's not always going to be the perfect, perfect wedding. So you have to think about how things are going to go, not just the first few years, but the entire contract. So, you know, I think there was some agreement that we'll try to put as much as we can in the middle. And then the contract becomes a little bit more easy to handle in the last three years. Yeah. I'm curious in having spent some time around Doug, and in Raleigh and such a thoughtful guy.

And I wonder, like, during the process of something like this, how often are you talking with Dougie? Do you talk to him about these things like structure? Some players, I'm assuming, maybe are less concerned of it and just simply trust you to come up with the structure that works best for all concerned. And maybe even beyond that, you know, the discussions with the team about fit and, you know, the relationship with Lindy Ruff and Tom. Fitzgerald, the GM there. I'm wondering just how that works. How much is the player like Dougie Hamilton engaged in this process? Well, if you know, Dougie, you know, he had better marks in school than I did. I would never judge you that way, J.P. Barry, but okay, maybe. So, no, I had spoken to Dougie about about the way I would, you know, like to do it and

talk to him in advance. So he did know that before we started. So he, you know, obviously, He trusted me to come up with that structure. But I let him know that there was sort of a way that I'd like to do this contract. And he was patient. So, and Tom was too. Like Tom was trying to figure out what was best for their side. And there was movement around, you know, the structure in the years. Once we were able to, you know, the way the structure works,

the rules out there are pretty complicated for a, if you front load it, you can only move about 20% each year, you know, each year. back and forth, whereas if you backload it, you can basically move as far up as the lower of the first two years and as far down as half of the lower of the first two years. So it's called a 100% rule of the CBA and it's not a fun provision to read. No, just out of curiosity, obviously I wouldn't ask you to name other teams. But, you know, I assume that once you give Tom Fitzgerald your word, but then you still have three, four, five hours at work to paper the deal.

Like, our team's still calling and just saying, you know what? Yeah, keep trying to find out what's going on. But once, you know, once I make a decision with the team, well, once I had agreed on the dollars, I'm not taking any more phone calls. Right. Well, we're past, we're past the bell now.

And we have a team that we're going to do a deal with. So we're going to sit down and get that done. So, you know, we spent the better part of the afternoon coming up with structure. And then on top of the structure, once that's in place, the language. Right. So, you know, we had to discuss their request for, I mean, we wanted a no move clause, of course, and they wanted flexibility in the last three years. Right.

So it's a modified no trade in the last three years. It is. Absolutely. And there's language around bad in our list. and then quite frankly, calculators to make sure that you're not worth so correct. And the other, J.P., the other, of course, it's very public because the hurricanes have talked about it,

but the other unique part of this process for such a big name and a big free agent is that you actually have had the green light to talk to teams for a long time. You didn't have to wait until the suite, which I don't know how fruitful that actually ended up being for you, but you tell me. It wasn't fruitful, really, because...

the market was clogged up with options and the kind of the way this business works, it backs, you know, options stack, teams have different needs. So I was staying all along. I think it was a little bit frustrating for Carolina that there really wasn't a market until I think Seth Jones did his deal. My partner, Pat, did a, was involved with getting him traded and signed. Chicago, I think that's sort of set off the DM, market because that was another top D that was out there.

And it's relevant. When those top Ds are floating around, you guys know that, whether at the draft or otherwise, they're part of the mix. And then people realign and look at what their needs are. So a lot of stuff happens in the last four days as far as, you know, who's the teams that are actually in the mix for your clients. So you have to watch all that as it develops. So, you know, a little bit before the draft and through the draft.

JP, Pierre and I were talking just as we were getting. ready to go and he's of course getting ready to head to the cottage. This is our last show of this season and we're talking about the past 16 months and just how, you know, it's something hopefully we'll never go through again and certainly as an industry in a business. It's, it has made, it's just been completely unique. And I'm wondering if you are seeing from your perspective as an agent that are we sort of trending towards something called normalcy? I know with a flat cap ahead, it's still a challenge. But do you get a sense that, you know, once we get back on the ice in the fall for the 21-22 season that we will be sort of trending the right way?

Or what kind of things are you seeing in your part of the business that are maybe indicators of where we're at? Yeah, I think we've gone through so much pessimism. And I mean, of course, why not? It's been a crazy couple of years. So yes, I mean, people buckled down. And I think the last two years were really difficult and the market and people like, not sure, you know, none of us were sure what the future is.

I think people are definitely more optimistic this summer. We all know that we're not fully through this, but we're more optimistic. So it does feel like things were a little bit more. I think after a couple years of not making moves also, I think some teams needed to make some moves. Like it's not just us being optimistic. I think the reality was a lot of contracts were expiring and players were moving on and, you know, performance level. So a lot of teams had to do business this year. So on the agent side, that's good.

Yeah. And I said at the top of the show, JP, I don't know if you agree. I also felt last fall when we had the other free agency before 2021. There were just 20 teams uncertain of revenue streams and what a season would look like if we were going to have a season. And I think it greatly affected the market last October and felt none of that yesterday. It felt absolutely none of that. No, I think it's changed. I mean, I agree.

that was the low point for sure. And now I think everyone wants to get going. And I mean, everyone's trying to be optimistic that we actually have an 82 game season again and get moving. Obviously, we have to get through some things in Canada and the United States. I'm not sure who I'm more worried about right now, the US or Canada.

Right. But as a Canadian, I think Canada's doing a little bit better right now, in my opinion. With the vaccinations, I guess, no argument there, yeah. Yeah, and that'll probably be, you know, obviously there's another topic of vaccinations. I mean, we've seen other leagues go through it here, how are we going to tackle it in hockey?

I hope I think our vaccination rate is going to be higher amongst our players and coaches and things than everyone else. I'm curious about that, JP. Does that come up organically when you're talking to your clients and you're talking, you know, whether it's young players working on entry-level deals or veteran players that are looking to sign new contract with new teeth? Like, does that come up in your conversations? And do you have, like, you guys are a massive, uh, organization? Is there a policy? Like, are you, how do you

handle that? Because it's, you know, we've seen in different sports. Yeah, I mean, obviously, on our client relationship, we have to be careful. I mean, people have feelings, but, you know, we have to keep it, you know, in house. But, uh, as a group, yes. I mean, you know, because we are football, we can move in the basketball and we've discussed all that stuff. But I think it's going to come down to what the NHL and the NHLPA are going to do as a league. And this is definitely an area where the NHLPA is going to have a lot of say. You know, they can determine conditions of work, you know, in their collective bargaining relationship with the league. And I think that's going to be an interesting topic in the next little while, actually.

If you had the magic wand, would you mandate? You're trying to trap JP into a common area. I'm not even trying. I know what you're doing. I was curious. I think I don't need to trap me. Maybe I've been asked my opinion a few times. And maybe I'm a little bit.

Maybe it's because I'm a Canadian. But I think that we can determine the conditions of work. And if we say that you need to be vaccinated to enter the workplace, I think we can do that legally. That's how that's my opinion. So I don't know if there's any other way around it in professional sports. And we're seeing that. I know, I don't know if you recently saw, but in England in soccer, you're not allowed

to enter the stadium to watch the game unless you're vaccinated. So not just the players, the fans have to be vaccinated. Before we let you go, I mean, you represent a lot of high-end players. So I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you, for example, on Morgan Riley, who has a year left on his deal. And, you know, I think Kyle Dewas said publicly that, you know, he kind of had parked that file until he can get through the draft and free agency, etc. what's your sense of where that's headed with the Morgan GP well I mean I've had I met with Morgan before he went home a few months ago we you know just got an overview of the market and said look obviously you have to see what happens to the the market this summer because it'll probably be

different again and I think it is different again I mean there's a few more comparables and I guess you know we were involved in two of them I was going to say yeah so there's a couple more comparables to look at. I mean, they're not, none of them are perfect, but, you know, he could be somewhere in between the two of them or he could be, you know, similar to a few of the comparables and some other comparables that are still out there. So, I mean, obviously the D market is, is moving. I think it's also shifted upward with those younger players signing new deals, whether it's McCar and Heiskin and, and we have, I mean, Hughes is to come. And so the whole market. I think the emphasis on defenses has shifted a little bit higher.

If you look at the overall market, that's the one area. The elite defenseman market seems to have, you know, added some comparables. Yeah, I would argue globally speaking, it feels like the D are eating some cap space away from the goalies. Interestingly. Yeah. I would argue. And I thought, I think it was a little bit tied. The movement on goaltending this year, I don't have as many goaltenders. We have a few, but the movement on goaltenders, also it seems to be a lot of movement on goaltenders probably because what you said, like finding the money in the right place, right? Good stuff.

All right. Well, hold on. I mean, you mentioned Quinn Hughes. Hold on. I mean, obviously that's been ongoing. And Jim Bennings talked about it a few times with the Vancouver media. Obviously, it's a huge priority along with Elias Patterson. But what's, I mean, and there is no deadline to those things other than your players want

to be signed for camp, I'm sure. But what's your sense of that? Yeah. Yeah, we're working on both right now. In fact, we'll probably have a call here a couple hours of the group. So we're collectively, Pat and I are doing that together with

Elias and Quinn. And I think the difficult part after everything that we've seen right now is matching up our term wishes with their term wishes because the contracts for these younger players are

very different depending on the term. Because you're talking about free agent years versus restricted years. So that's going to be a little bit of the challenge. Obviously, you know, we've got some new signings in here and we have to work around them. But, you know, that's what we're all working on right now is like trying to find that sweet spot where both sides are happy. It's not rocket science to me in a sense that I think if you're the team, it's whether you take your pain now or later. And, you know, listen, Tampa, I think did a really good job with Brayden Point, but they still have to pay them big finally, right?

They got them lower on the bridge, but now he's going to make $76 million in a year from now. I mean, that's basically, I think your decision as a team is when you finally want to go Pock committed with your core guys, right? Right. And the bridges, but you can look at the bridge for Point and you can say it kind of work because now look at the average over 11 years. Like if the bridge is strong, which it was for Point and it was for Barzol and a few of these other guys could chuck, they all have strong bridges. and then you add their next deals, you'll see that we're talking 11 years, not 8, right? Right, right.

Their prime. So there is some advantages to look at the term of taking a short bridge and then moving forward. And I think what you guys did in a previous CBA with Kane and Taze as well. Absolutely. And Malkin and Crosby. Right. All roads go through CAA apparently. That's it.

But it's interesting, you know, the big firm, CAA and Newport and Octagon. I'd love to be a fly in the wall when the big firms have group think calls about the trends in the industry, JP. Like, it must be interesting because I would imagine the key of those conversations is to not always be an agreement, that you have to sort of hear different viewpoints in terms of coming up with a strategy, right? I mean, that's interesting. Yeah, I think different people have different mindsets on what to do. And, you know, but you have to work with teams, too, because you can't obviously, you know, hold, you know, get into a situation where you're not playing in the fall every year. So you got to figure out what works for them also.

It doesn't always work that a team can do eight years. So you have to figure that. Yeah. Do you guys still do, JP? I know we've, I've angled for a trip to California in the past, but do you used to do, bringing your young players and maybe all of your clients, but it's sort of a camp, a pre-camp camp. been, I know with COVID, that would have been difficult, but that, that's right to me is something that has been, you know, was something that you helped to put together. Will that come back? How important is that kind of gathering?

Yeah, we do for, obviously, our younger players, before the draft, we bring them in for a couple of years. It was large in California. We have, you know, 20 years of camps that grew from year to year. Because of this, we've had to do regional, like we did a smaller Canadian camp and a smaller Swedish camp and a smaller U.S. camp just because of, you know, the border issues. But what we do also as a group, I mean, obviously now, I mean, Zoom is taking over. We were meeting weekly as a group with our whole team because we're spread out. I mean, we have checked Sweden, Russia, Finland.

So, you know, we kept together this whole year with technology. And I have to say we had our strongest year ever with the draft. And, you know, it can work. But there's nothing like getting together. So we're going to, our hope is that we can all go to California. for the first time two years into our main office there and we can all meet,

but we cross our fingers on that. Well, I can't speak for Pierre, but I'm always up for a trip to California. So if you, anyway, just throwing that out there. I'm always up for a trip to Napa, but that's a different,

that's a different reason. All right, JP, I would have said, take the rest of the day off, but it doesn't sound like that's in the cards for you, but thank you for coming and hanging out with Pierre and I. It's always so insoling,

insightful to catch up. And thanks for sharing some time at a very busy time for you. Thank you very much, guys. Thanks for coming on, JP. Have a great summer. Hopefully, when I get back to Toronto, I can still get up to North therapy. Yes, we'll, you know, maybe we'll do a big sit-down interview for the athletic when I come back to work. I like it.

Thank you. All right. Take care, JP. Thank you. Good work by you at the last minute to get JP on, very timely with that. Dougie Hamilton deal. And listen, it really is a fascinating look into, you know, sort of the machinery of the NHL and how a day like yesterday works and all the moving parts.

So good job by you. Yeah. And that was a grind, I think, for JP Berry throughout this process. Obviously, they were never able to get Carolina to really move up. I think Carolina's final offer was 5.75 million a year. And again, it's not like. The Hurricanes are not a cap team, but they have their ideas about how they want to spread that money around. So probably disappointing for Dougie at some level to leave a team where he had fit in so well.

But really a tremendous job. I did not think $9 million a year was there in the market for Doug Hamilton. I got to be honest. So that was a tremendous job at JP. There was some pretty good contracts by different agents yesterday. You know, I thought Don, me and getting $5 million a year over six years for Fildon-O, I thought that was one of the home run contracts yesterday. I was certainly proven wrong.

I did not think the No had north of five on the market myself. Just again, tremendous shutdown player, but not a lot of offense. So that was one for sure that I looked at. What about you? What are some of the deals that are surprised? Yeah, no, I'm completely with you. And to me, it speaks to how important the playoffs are and how closely people watch.

I mean, Phil Dono was, I mean, he was such an important part of that magical run to the final for the Canadians. And as you point out, he's not an offense producer.

And I wrote this in sort of my grade that, you know, people in L.A. or fans will be like, geez, that's a lot of money. But you know when they will appreciate that contract is when the kings are in the playoffs.

And in the Pacific, they are in that mix. You know, Tom McClellan is such a good coach. They have a ton of really good young players. I thought Alex Edler signing for one year there, Phil Dono playing behind Anjitou, I think that King's team is going to be close. And that's when they'll appreciate it.

Well, I'll tell you, it was probably not thrill that Phil Dono is in their division now, Mark Stone and Max Pateretti when Vegas plays L.A. And of course, Vegas is a better team, of course. They're on different arcs in their place in the world. but that was not a fun series for Stone and Patch Ready against Dono and a half. Yeah, no, there's no question, no question. All right, well, we're going to get to some of the other things that happened yesterday. We've got a bunch of questions as we wrap up this edition of Two Man Advantage

and the last one of the 2020-21 season. All right, my friend, got some questions here. And this is great because with these questions, we can cover off some of the, you know, some of the things that we didn't talk about it or maybe some of the players who ended up in new homes yesterday. Let's go, let's start with this. This is from Aaron Halverson. And he's wondering about some of the players who are still available. Maybe, you know, sort of lower profile players, players who didn't, you know, sort of jump right into the frenzy yesterday. Are there some guys that you are keeping tabs on? I know you mentioned Brandon.

saw it. I'm not sure he qualifies as a sort of lower profile. This is a two-time Stanley Cup winner. But are there still, of the guys that are out there, you're like, are you like, well, I wonder, I wonder what's going to happen here. I mean, I think one name that intrigues me is Eric Stahl. And, you know, maybe it's because I wrote that big piece on him and his family during the cup final. But, you know, number one, I kind of wondered if he still wanted to play and obviously he does that's what his agent Rick Kerr told me so he's on the market and I'm curious to see what the fit would be there for him I mean he just built a new home with his family in Minnesota but obviously the wild you know that's not an option after

they traded him yes last year but you know can they find him a spot on a competitive team that that you know that that that isn't a five-hour flight from Minnesota I guess is the way I would put it So that intrigues me to find out where he ends up. Yes, and I'm sort of interested in, you know, he's not, he's not, I'm really interested to see what happens with, with Tuka Rask, right? I mean, he's, you know, we know that Boston had to make a move with Tuka Rask's off-season surgeries. It looks like he won't be healthy until early in the new year, so 2022.

and signing Linus Olmark there. But, you know, it's hard to imagine Tuka Rask anywhere else. He is a UFA. And it's such a great career for him. And so I'm curious, he's not a traditional UFA, I suppose. But I'm curious to see what happens because it's not only, you know, how does the rehab go on all those kinds of things. But then he has to, then they have to come to terms because he is a UFA.

So that makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting because, I mean, I mean, I guess he's not come back until January or the earliest, but I mean, it feels like the Bruins will just sign him when the time is right. But, you know, they just spent a lot of money in Linus Allmark yesterday. So I don't know that there's any guarantees here. So that will be interesting.

Yeah, well, and Swamen, the young goaltender who came up and played so well down the stretch for the Bruins. And like he really is, he's a real talent. So, yeah, I think it will be interesting. And he's such, you know, listen, I know too, because fans in Boston have been unkind to him at times, I think, and fun fairly so. But to me, he's such an important part of that core. You know, Patrice Bergeron, Brad Marche, Zan, Zanatochara, Tuka Raska, those are, those are the players who, who revived that franchise in Boston, and really created the dynamic that's been there for a decade. So anyway.

Yeah, how about Nick Foligno picking Boston over Toronto in Minnesota? Oh, boy. Yeah. Yes. I thought there was some interesting work there. That one hurt for the Leafs, I think. Well, and certainly, you know, not telling Tales at a school, but having spent some time in Minnesota last week, there's no question that Nick Felino was on the Wild's radar,

hoping that the brothers, Marcus and Nick would find, you know, that they would be able to play together in Minnesota. And Nick was, you know why people want him? Because he's a character guy. He's still a good player. It would have been a great fit in Minnesota, you know, as they navigate this post-Purise Souter world. But no, and there is a real connection with Boston, right? His daughter had life-saving surgery in Boston.

They spent a lot of time there. They committed a lot of money in terms of charitable work in the medical area in Boston. So, yeah, no, I think it's a great sign. By the way, your piece being embedded with the Wild Front Office last week was tremendous. if people are listening and haven't read it yet, make sure to go rebut. Good boy, by you pick that right up. See, this is why you're a true pro. You picked that right up.

All right, this is a question from Jonathan Morris. And it's, what does it take for Anaheim to get Jack Eichael? But to me, this will broaden this out. You know, we go through expansion draft, the draft, the first day of free agency. And still the Jack Eichol situation remains. unresolved. In fact, it may even be murkier because I know Mike Russo, our fine, fine Minnesota Wild reporter indicating that, you know, the Wild had interest. It was an obvious fit, right? They need an elite center to go with Caprizov and what they're building there, but it looks like they're,

they have backed away from that now. And it's, it's still out there. So, you know, that's, like, it's, you know, Kevin Adams still has his hands full with what to do with Jack Eichol. Buffalo. Yeah. And, you know, I said this to someone at TSN, after the first round of the draft was over last Friday, I said, oh boy, that was an important window missed on the ICO front. And that's not a criticism of Kevin Adams at all. I'm just saying that there are different sort of pressure points where things might happen. And the first round is always one of them, because you can include first round picks in the deal. And once the first round came and went without but an Ico deal, I just remember thinking, so now there is no real, like, this trade could happen now,

it could happen in September. Like, what's the difference? I mean, it's not like there's a deadline now. I mean, you could argue maybe they should have got a deal done before for a agency because teams are filling up cap space. And that is true. And I'll give you a great example. You know, the L.A. Kings, I know, had talks with Buffalo about Jack Eichol, but once they signed Philton-O, there's no room for Jack Eagel in LA with Copa Tanoa down the middle.

No, exactly. So there's a team that's gone. But having said that, I mean, Kevin Adams has been, you know, I'm thinking about some of his last few media availability. He's been asked about this, but I think he said, you know, unless he gets what he feels is the right return, that he's going to be patient. And clearly he's showing that.

I just don't think the market has been that hot. And I think some of it is the neck and, the next situation where he's going to need surgery. He wants to have surgery right after he gets traded. And of course, to 10 million a year in a flat cap world, there's a lot going on here. So to get to the Anaheim part of this, yes, the ducks have looked at it, but I don't, I mean, I could be wrong and maybe he ends up there, but I don't view them as a great match. But the reason that Anaheim is after some of the same things that Buffalo is, which is futures.

The ducks want to get younger here. and the ducks are listening on some of their older core guys in exchange for younger players. That's what the ducks are looking at. So how do you make an Ikel deal work other than the fact that Ikel is young himself, so that would appeal to Anheim? But what are you moving out of your team that would make sense if you're Anheim if the Sabres want some high-end futures? So that's why I always struggle with the Anheim fit.

Yeah, I just, I don't know. I keep saying this. I'm the only one. Well, just, you know, don't trade them. You know, what? Who can't play for Don Granato? Come back. Rehabilitate your, you know, you have to resolve the injury thing, right? Like, you have to resolve, are you going to get the surgery on the disc replacement in the neck? You know, what's the timing on that?

You have to resolve that. But if you're, if you're Buffalo, you also have to resolve, like, you know, the ask, and I'm not saying you should give Jack Eichel away, but the ask is enormous. And the fact that, you know, my sense of it is not really interested in eating any of that salary. Holy cow. Well, who can do that? I mean, at some point, I guess there's the hockey side and then there's just, you know, everything else. Like, I wonder at some point if the Pagula's ownership just goes to Kevin Adams and says, you know what, I've had enough.

Just take what you can. And that happens sometimes in sports. Yeah. Like, like, so on the other hand, I'll give you an example. example, and you know, it's not apples and apples, but Joe Sackett got severely, severely criticized by a lot of people, including me, by the way, when he didn't trade Matt Dushain back in the day in a time period that we thought he should have. He went through a whole draft without trading him, if you remember, and then I just kept waiting and waiting and waiting until finally

it was either October or November. He makes that rather famous now three-way deal with Ottawa and Nashville, which is one of the great transactions, really, in the modern day in in inchal history, where the abs end up with, you know, they end up with Samuel Gerard, a first round pick that turns into Bowen, Byron, you know, it was just unbelievable the way that it all played out. And the point being that we all thought he had missed his window on dealing Duchenne six months earlier. And we were wrong. His patience worked out. Yeah. That's it. You know what, that's a really good point. It's an excellent point. And I have not, you know, this is truly isn't about me, but I have, you know, I've said through all of this, well, I just, honestly, if you can't

get what you want, you, you own Jack Eichols rights for five years. He is going to come and play hockey for you if he can't play somewhere else. Like, well, and by the way, if the worst case scenario is that he doesn't show up the camp, then you're not paying him $10 million. So, exactly. Yeah. You know, I mean, all right. It is what it is. Yes. Okay, let's take a couple more and then we'll put you out the door.

We should close things out here. We've got a question from our good friend, Alon, in Ottawa. Oh, wow. Yeah, I know. And this isn't about personal grooming, so I can, this is good, I can read it. His question is, who did too much this week? And really the second part of that, can you do too much? Can you do too much to your roster?

Because I think the answer is yes, you can sometimes. Because if you move a ton of pieces, there's a lot of work to be done then when you gather for the start of the season and getting something going. Are there teams that you're like, geez, there's so many moving parts. How is that going to work out? This is probably not quite the answer he was looking for. But I will tell you if there's a team that I think still needs to do. some things between now and September because right now I don't know that I do them in the same way it's a Toronto Maple Leafs. They're not as good a team as they were a year ago

right now and you know maybe Peter Morazick will prove me wrong but I think they're not as good in gold. They didn't replace Sack Hyman you know so and it's not from a lack of trying. I mean you know I think they showed interest in Michael Granlin before he, and tipped his toes quickly and went back to Nashville. Obviously, had interest to bring it back Nick Folingo, and certainly I think they looked at a few other forwards. And it's not done. I mean, the Leafs at some point,

Caldupis, I think, indicated this yesterday, but, you know, they're going to try and find that top nine forward through one way or another between now and training camp. So I'm not ready to give this a final judgment, but if there's a team that I look at right now, I'm like, yeah, they've slipped a bit. I think it's the Leafs. Yeah.

That's what I've been thinking this, trying to, you know, it's been a topsy-turvy off-season in Edmonton. And for me, they're a team. I wonder, I think, frankly, the exact same thing. I don't think they're as good as they were when they entered the playoffs and were swept by Winnipeg, shockingly. But, and some of it's beyond their control, right? I mean, you know, Oscar Cleftbom's injury. You know, that's, that's problematic. It's such a good player. You know, losing Adam Larson to Seattle. That's a huge blow to that blue line. And now you've got 38-year-old Duncan Keith and you bring Tyson Barry back.

You know, Cody Cthee, I thought was excellent in Pittsburgh. But, man, he's, you know, that market in Edmonton is so critical that, and it took him a while in Pittsburgh to really find his footing. I just think there's going to be a lot of pressure on that Edmonton team. And I don't know if there is good defensively. I really, you know, I love, we talked about Carolina. I think Ethan Bear is going to be a really solid NHL defenseman. And I just, you know, he went through a lot in Edmonton. And I thought he grew as a player there.

But he goes in the Warren Fogel deal. I don't know. I just, I look at Edmonton. I'm like, geez. And to me, it's a lot of pressure on Mike Smith, 39 years old, comes back. He signs a two-year deal there. But boy, there's a lot of pressure in Edmonton. And I'm not sure there are any better than they were when they were swept by Winnipeg.

Yeah, and I think you speak for the majority. I saw a lot of that analysis yesterday. So I'll just, just for the sake of it, I have the sneaking suspicion the Oilers are actually better. And it's one of those things I can't really defend in the moment because I think you laid it out perfectly. But again, I think Hyman was a huge addition. Now, do I like the rest of that contract in about three or four years? Yeah, of course. Probably not.

But in the here and now, he's a huge addition. They needed that type of player. They're a four group. I think Duncan Keith is going to surprise people next year. Yep. You know what? I actually think, and again, it's hard for me to state the case because I think you laid it out perfectly. But I got a sneaky feeling the Oilers are actually next year are actually going to take a step forward.

Okay. All right, all right. I love that. We'll revisit that. Yeah, we will. We will. All right. My friend Stephen Bryce wants to know what kind of wine Pierre is drinking at the end of the broadcast.

Stop before. We're getting a message from Jeff to wrap it up. He's got another podcast. So let's go. Dude, you did a great job this year. You did a great job this year. Thanks for putting up with me. And I love you like a brother.

I know you're going to come up to my cottage and see me in September. So that's exciting. For everyone listening, we'll be back in late September. Taking a long break here. Cannot wait. And love you, man. All right. I got things to do here.

I got business to take care of. So don't leave just yet. I know you're half out the door. Jim and Ellen Hughes, the parents of Luke, Jack, and Quinn Hughes, joined Craig Custin's and Sean Gentilly on the Athletic Hockey Show this week. And you should check out our comments section for each podcast episode at the Athletic app. And rate and subscribe to the athletic hockey show on Apple. If you aren't already a subscriber, go to theathletic.com.

Hockey Show and receive a subscription for $3.99 a month for six months. See, I read that without weeping. You got me all weepy before you were saying goodbye. But no, travel safely, my friend. Take and enjoy this time. It is so well deserved. You are the king. Talk to you soon.

Right on, right on.