The Athletic Hockey Show - Alexander Ovechkin joins the 800 club, Mitch Marner extends point streak, John Shannon on his life in hockey

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

On a supersized roundtable, Rob, Jesse and Mike marvel at the wonder that is Alexander Ovechkin, who continues his assault of the NHL's all-time goal scoring record held by Wayne Gretzky. The guys discuss Mitch Marner's impressive 23 game point streak and go over some of the bigger storylines from the just wrapped board of governor meetings, including news on the salary cap, playoff format and the Ottawa Senators ownership interest.John Shannon, the legendary executive producer of NHL hockey, who went in front of the camera later in life as a hockey insider, talks about his first book 'Evolve or Die', a look behind the scenes of working in broadcasting for the NHL, Hockey Night in Canada and Sportsnet during his storied career.The boys also give their take on Bo Horvat, Darryl Sutter, Jack Eichel and the beast that is Tage Thompson in another edition of rapid fire.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. Well, that's going on, everybody. Welcome to another fantastic edition. And yes, I'm being presumptuous about that, but I'm just going to say it because it usually is fantastic, right? Guys, of the Athletic Hockey Show, I am Rob Pizzo, joined, as always, by Jesse Granger in Vegas and Mike Russo in Minnesota. How are we, boys?

Doing well. How are you, Rob? Yep. I mean, you should be doing well. We're about to have a fantastic edition of the show. I'll call it out. We're going to have an above average show. that's what I think is so big.

That's all you can aim for, right? Just a little bit above average. And yeah, we've got, as usual, a boatload of stuff to go through, not only things that happened last night, but things throughout the week, as we always do on this show. And later on, we're going to speak to John Shannon, who, you know, some people know him as a behind-the-scenes innovator in sports broadcasting. Some people know him as a in front of the camera personality. Some people know him as both in a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of.

in between. He just wrote a book called Evolve or Die, Hard Lessons from a Hockey Life. We're going to talk to him in segment number two. But guys, how do we not start with Ovi? Goes in the last night's game, scores in the first 30 seconds, scores number 798, 799, and then the magical 800 to complete the hat trick. Of course, only two other players have ever done it. Some guy named Gretzky, some guy named Howe. And Gordy Howe is at 801, of course, so he's He's got one more just to tie Mr. Hockey himself. I don't want to keep repeating myself that he's the greatest goal score in the history of the game, even if he retires right now.

But this still amazes me every time he does anything and does it with a flare of the dramatic. What did you think last night? And even the Ovation, the standing ovation in Chicago and hats being thrown on the ice in Chicago, that alone is an accomplishment. Jesse, what do you think? Yeah, that's exactly where I was going. with it was he's on the road in Chicago. These fans have not had a lot to cheer about.

The Blackhawks are terrible. They started the season off a little better, but they're kind of coming back to what we all thought they would be. And they had an absolute ball watching Ovechkin score three goals against their hawks. I thought it was hilarious. The OV chance were great. And then I saw some photos after the game, his stall. I guess like a bunch of the players put, took the hat.

off the ice and put them, like, piled them onto his locker room stall. So he gets back to the locker room and his stall is just covered in hats. But it's hilarious that they're Blackhawks hats like a guy, the Capitol's best player in franchise history scores a hat trick to hit 800. And there's just Blackhawks hats all over his locker room stall. It was great. It just shows you that OV transcends fandom. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think what, what's really cool is it happens in an original six city. I mean, it could have happened, you know, in Washington tonight. That was, would have been really cool. Part of me wondered if he wouldn't go for the hat trick just to do it at home. But that guy's got a flare for the Domatic. I mean, he gets to 793. And next to you know,

he's scored seven goals in four games to get to 800. Like, why waste time? It's, it's, he required the fewest number of goals ever to go from 700 to 800. I mean, it's just really crazy. Like, Gretzky, it took him 231 games. He, it took 162. He, at, you know, he's at point, six something goals per game from age 30 on. It's, he's just as, yeah, I mean, it really is. And, um, you know, it, just to watch him continue to do this. And again, for it to happen in original six city on the road,

I think it's awesome. I really did actually remind me with Mark Andre Fleury, got number 500 in Montreal last season while he was with the Blackhawks, coincidentally. And obviously he's from Montreal. So that was a big reason for it. But if you remember at the end of that shutout there, um, the fans were just, serenading him in in a rival building. And that's something that you never think would happen. And I just love that the fans,

now I think this would have, the respect would have been in any road city. But for the fans to do that in Chicago, to see, to recognize the moment on how special this milestone was. It's, it's really remarkable to, uh,

to just see him continue to thrive at this age. Thrive, I think is the word, so we've seen consistent goal scores, you know, and I don't want me to put these guys on a lower level or I think, but I always think of Mike Gartner and he had all those 30-goals seasons and guys who just consistently put the puck in the net. But we're talking about a guy who last season, his 17th NHL season scored 50 goals.

We're talking about a guy who's in his 18th season. And if he won the Rocket Richard Trophy to this year, would you be surprised? Absolutely not. He's not human. And as you said, Russo, with 162 games to get from 700 to 800 to 800, at this points per game, or excuse me, goals per game rate, he's going to break Gretzky's record in the next 158 games or sometime in the first third of the 2024, 2025 season. If he doesn't get hurt, this is a foregone conclusion.

He has 325 goals since age 30. And as we said, you know, to your point there, Rob, we talked about this a couple shows ago. I mean, just imagine if he didn't have some of these interrupted seasons because of the pandemic, the late start to the lockout, the late start because of the pandemic. You know, there's three seasons in his career. that essentially didn't happen, plus the 2004-5 lockout where there was no season. You know, it's just, it really is unbelievable. And, you know, I found a picture last night of him at the 2004 Stanley Cup final in the Marriott

Water Street. It used to be called the Marriott Waterside. And back then, and they still do. They bring all the top prospects, they used to bring a ton more. But they bring the top prospects into the Stanley Cup final for all the media to interview. and Ovechkin was there in 2004. He spoke almost no English. He was wearing a tie that I'm telling you, I think he bought it Marshalls.

Like it had a tag on it that I think said Marshalls on the back. And I only know this because I'm actually in the picture right behind them. I had a lot more hair then. But he, I mean, he's just this pimple-faced kid, no gray hair, no NHL goals yet. You know, like that to me is what's amazing is that this was only 18 years ago. And that guy didn't score one single NHL goal. And here he is 18 years later. got 800 well on his way to breaking a record that I think none of us ever thought would be broken.

We talk a lot about his longevity and how he's been able to do this late in his career. To me, what makes it even crazier is when you look at the players in NHL history that have lasted and their game has lasted into their late 30s, getting into your 40s, it's usually the light of foot, like the skinny, like quick guy who doesn't carry a lot of. wait and can kind of just fly around the ice and his his legs aren't given out of like ovechkin is an ox like this guy is built like a semi truck and the fact that he's that big and he's still doing it and like he plays a physical game this guy is not avoiding checks like he is initiating contact still to this day every night out there like he's finishing his checks he's using the body to

get to the dangerous areas of the ice like i don't everything about this is amazing but to me, like, this isn't a guy who's gotten to this point and who's, who's lasted this long in the league by avoiding the hard areas and by not having major contact. Like, this guy, it's unbelievable how, like, that his body, the way he plays, he's been able to do this. Goals are hard. I know I'm not, I don't have any breaking news here, but goals are hard. And all those players, even if you want to talk about Gretzky, the last time Gretzky led

the NHL and goals was his eighth season. Okay. And remember, he played 19 seasons. Even players who continue to contribute and are viable players, their goals go down. That just happens. And it just hasn't happened with him. And when you look at his 800 goals, forgive me here, guys, for a second. I just want to read some of the things that are the most in NHL history.

409 road goals, most in NHL history. 292 power play goals, most in NHL history. 270 go-go-ahead goals most in history. First goals, 245, that's the most. 140 tying goals, 136 game opening goals, 25 over time. He just, he does it every single way. The only way he hasn't really done it, and I thought this, that was funny, he's got five short-handed goals among the fewest in the members in the 500 goal club.

He ain't killing penalties, and when he does, he still scores. But I just, I've had a loss for words for this. I think he's clearly going to do it. And you look at those three goals last night, though, which I thought was funny. They were the most un-OV goals ever. Like, he really wasn't that dirty, blue. ice kind of jamming home rebounds. I wanted to see top of the right circle of the of the circle on a power play, but we didn't get to see it. I wonder what would have happened if he was a Florida

Panther. I've told you that. I've told you guys that story, right? Yep. Yep. So in 2004 when he was drafted, the year before we're in Nashville, I'm covering the Florida Panthers. There were two or three times late in the draft where the Panthers had their microphone turned off. At one point, Rick Dudley stormed out of the arena because he was so humiliated about this whole situation. So it took a lot of reporting. You know, back then there wasn't like he can't just text a bunch of people. He had to like track people down. It took a lot of reporting. What had happened was the Panthers tried to draft Ovechkin in like, remember it was a nine round draft back then. and they tried to draft him like two or three times in there.

And the final one, if I remember correctly, was it Tanner Glass? I'm trying to look this up real quick. Somebody in the ninth round, I think it was Tanner Glass with Vancouver. God, it's just driving me crazy. I'm going to have to figure this out. But anyway, so 2003, they tried to do this, and their contention was that based on leap years, that he would have been eligible for that draft,

because he was born on September 17th, if I'm remembering correctly, and you're eligible based on your birthday as far as September 15th. So if he's with leap ears, if you count that, and the reason why the Panthers came up with this role is their owner at the time, Alan Cohen, was in the generic drug industry. And he had won some big court case where basically with generic drugs, based on leap years, he was able to get a jump on some of his competitors to try to essentially create this generic drug, whether it was penicillin or something like that. And anyway, he decided that when he saw that Ovechkin with Leapiers would have been eligible for 2003, he basically tried to get Rick Dudley to draft him many times.

Rick was humiliated by it, stormed out of the building. And by the way, it was Tanner Glass. And I've actually interviewed Tanner Glass about this. And they wound up. So again, Panthers with the 265th pick, try to take Alex Ovechkin. The mic is turned off. Like Jim Gregory screamed at the Panthers on the speaker. I'm like, what is going on here?

Then all of a sudden the Panthers are like, we'll take forward Tanner Glass. And to this day, whenever I've interviewed Tanner Glass about this and whether or not he knew that the Panthers basically took him as a concession to after losing out in Ovechkin. And I've interviewed Ovechkin on this too, and he's heard the story as well. So I just think it's hilarious that the Panthers essentially took Tanner Glass instead of Alex Ovechkin. Kind of funny that he scores such a milestone goal. And you almost feel like putting any celebration on hold for two more goals. You know what I mean?

Because let's celebrate 800. And then you're passing one of the greatest players, if not a lot of people think the greatest player in the history of the game in two more. Wait till 802. And then go and celebrate. I mean, it was so big last night. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

Lazarus's tweet last night was hilarious. He basically called it a disappointing night for him because he didn't tire pass, Gordy. Oh, man, this guy's just unreal. And it was so big last that. Mitch Marner, two assists in the Leaf game, the streak now up to 23 games, 12th different player in NHL history to have a run of that length. And that was just so put aside.

Like it just does. But, I mean, also that the streak continued early in the first period. So it's always nice to kind of, you know, get a streak like, that, but Jesse and I talked a lot about the streaking last week, Russo. I'm curious on your take on this, Marner. When does a streak start really catching your attention like this? Well, I think that. I mean, I just think it's, look, you can play great and not get a point, right? I watched last night's game. I thought Austin Matthews was really, really good. And you look at the end of the night of a 7-0 win, and he's got one assist. You know, it's, as you mentioned,

it's hard to score goals. It's hard to get points. You're depending on a lot of other guys finishing on your great setups. Toronto was here a couple of weeks. ago and I watched Marner play and he just looks like he is on all cylinders right now. And you look back now at some of the last two or three years when there were all these rumors out there that they might have to trade Marner or want to trade Marner or the fans want him traded or whatever. And here he is coming out and just playing, you know, to me, the best hockey of his career. I just think it's outstanding.

The Leafs look really, really good right now. They're getting an incredible goaltending. And because of that, you know, it's almost, isn't it funny? it almost feels like people are more talking about their outstanding goaltending that they're getting right now because it's such a surprise considering who they brought in this offseason. And Marner's, as you mentioned, it's almost like a backseat. And it's almost, it almost was perfect last night that Marner takes the back seat because Ovechkin had a perfect night. And a back-to-back shut up by Samsonoff too, right? Like, you're right. Like, it's one of those like, you know, oh,

forget it. We're talking about this. But see how long this thing goes. The shift gears here a bit, guys. The Board of Governors meetings wrapping up in Florida yesterday. There are, say, five things I want to ask you about. So we'll treat this kind of rapid fire-ish. Weeks ago, we talked about the reports that the salary cap was going to go up and go up significantly in the off-season because there was the belief that escrow would be paid back in full. According to Gary Bettman, that might not be the case. And these are according to projection.

They're going to fall about 70 million short, which means in the off season, if the cap were to go up, it's going to go up $1 million as opposed to $4 million. Thoughts on this and how much you got GM scrambling a bit now because they thought they'd have a little more money. Jesse? Yeah, yeah, it's bad news, obviously, for business for the NHL. Not terrible news, but they're not doing as well as maybe they thought. But to me, I remember when the projections came out, I said, man, this is great for hockey because it's going to make teams spend money in the offseason. The off season is going to be more fun. There's going to be less penny pinching. There's going to be more teams going for it. And now it looks

like it might not happen. That would really suck. I can't imagine how tough it is for these GMs to not have certainty when you're like signing these contracts long term. And like these guys are trying to plan for three, four years from now, let alone this upcoming off season and they don't know how much money they're going to have to work. Because I think if they hadn't been so pressed against the cap in the last few seasons, it wouldn't be so bad. but because more than half the league is pressed as tightly as they can get to the salary cap, it's like, it's making things really, really difficult on these guys. They're going to find out last minute whether or not they are going to have room to add a

player or whether or not they're going to have room to retain a player that's hitting free agency. It makes their lives a lot more difficult. But as Bill Guerrins said, I mean, sorry, Armstrong said when we had him on here, I thought his answer was fascinating. Maybe this is some GMs aren't against. this and maybe he's getting his wish of the competition between the GMs, who can sign the best contracts, who can fit under the cap. This may give those GMs who think they're a little better than the other ones at that, a little bit of an edge. Yeah. Doug Armstrong, by the way,

we will have, we're hoping to have Bill Armstrong on one of next week's shows, by the way. I totally agree with you, Jesse. You know, it's just, like, again, I know I always bring things back to Minnesota, but they got nine players that are either pending RFAs or UFAs, and they got 15 and a half million dollars to spend. And one of those players is Matt Boldie, by the way, a potential superstar that they can clearly only afford to sign to a bridge deal. It is, it's, it's, this puts a lot of, I think that a lot of teams thought they were getting a lifeline and now are learning that they're not. And it's going to make things really interesting heading into the trade deadline here, because I think that, you know, some teams might now have to either

dumb players now or make really, really tough decisions this offseason? B OG topic number two, the auto senator's ownership situation, of course, they are officially for sale. And apparently there are 12 interested buyers who signed NDAs because that means they can look at the books and see if they want to actually move forward with this sale and Ryan Reynolds still in play. Ryan Reynolds may join one of these 12 groups, but I'm wondering how long this thing is going to take to get done because it's starting to get to that point where you're like, okay, either

move along or call me when it's over. Russo? Yeah, I mean, this stuff takes a while. We don't want a situation like the Islanders several years ago. You want to vet these guys. Yeah, you want to vet these guys and make sure. And that's my gut. Make sure that they're actually rich.

Is that to make sure they're actually rich? Like, look, let's be honest, like Ryan Reynolds said a couple of weeks ago on, was it Fallon show that, you know, he needs a sugar daddy or sugar mama. So I think that's actually what's going to happen at the end of the day here is that there's going to be a big money owner. and then Ryan Reynolds is going to, whoever that's with is going to step in as some sort of minority owner, maybe a face of the franchise type person. We broke news, by the way, on the athletic hockey show a couple weeks ago because Bill Daly,

we were the first ones that Bill Daly told that he actually met with Ryan Reynolds. And so, you know, everybody was acting at the board of governors this week. Like, this was huge news that they actually sat down with them. I was like, that was on our show. But, uh, yeah, there you go. But anyway, like, I just think. that this is, look, we've written, we had an unbelievable expose in the athletic over the summer about just the, you know, the real difficult

ownership the last several years and the morale inside that organization. And I think this is only a good thing that somebody else is going to come in and take control of a franchise that, you know, many, many years ago was one of the top, top franchises in the league, was winning, went to a Stanley Cup final. You know, I think it's a good thing. The, the reason, this takes so long is 100% that Islander situation. I was talking to, I was talking to Golden Knights owner Bill Foley a couple weeks ago about his, he's buying, it actually just went final yesterday. He's buying the AFC Bournemouth Premier League team over in Europe, soccer team. And I was talking to

him. I was like, where are you at in the process? And he's like, yeah, they're currently doing like background checks. But I think I'll be fine because it's nowhere near as intensive as the NHL won when I bought the Golden Knights. I was like, really, how intense was it? He's like, they went back. Now, Bill Foley's like 60 something years old. They went back and talked to people who served in the army with Bill Foley when he was like in his 20s to get to know Bill. The the NHL went that far back to interview people, to find out about Bill Foley. And you've got to imagine it's because they once sold a team to a guy who had no money. So, so yeah, that's, That's definitely why this is taking so long.

I thought it was hilarious when Bill told me that. It is definitely an intensive process. They find out everything they can before they sell a team to somebody in this league. It takes a whole lot for Gary Bettman to say, we fucked up. I remember watching that 30 for 30 that Kevin Connolly did, big shot, and seeing Gary Bettman say, yeah, we fucked up. You didn't use that word, but I'm going to use it. And thinking, oh, wow, you must have for Gary Bettman to say, yeah, we messed up.

So, yeah, John Spanow, I guess he's the reason all this is going on. Topic number three, and this kind of stems from our own Pierre LeBron, who wrote a piece on this on The Athletic that came out this morning. Go give it a read if you got a chance. He kind of was pushing the commissioner on adding a play-in game series, something, some play-in situation. In other words, more teams in the playoffs. The commissioner threw cold water on it right away, kind of joking, saying you're trying to create a problem where there is it one? Are you two for or against more playoff teams, be it play in or whatever situation you want to put it in? Jesse?

Against. The playoffs are good. The only thing I'd change is going back to the one versus eight, two versus seven. I like that format better. I think it delays. Yeah, it's more fair. And it delays the big matchups until the bigger rounds. I don't know.

I prefer it one versus eight. But to me, I would argue that if you're going to go a direction, it would be to have less playoff teams. I know that's never going to happen because it takes away revenue and that's what this is all about. But I think half the teams making the playoffs is more than enough. Adding more teams to the playoffs, we already have teams making the playoffs that are like not very good. I mean, you look at that bubble year when they had the wild card. The Chicago Black, like the Golden Knights played the Blackhawks that year, that Blackhawks team was horrendous and they were in the, like, that's what you're going to get when you add more

playoff teams. You're just going to get really, really bad hockey teams in the playoffs. And I don't Montreal went to the ceiling of finals. I think that's your point. You know, there's a great point right there. Right next year, they were as god awful as you can expect. Um, that's what I agree. Like, look, I everybody knows how much we all respect Pierre, but he's going to live and die on this hill, uh, all the time. And, um, you know, I, I will say I just don't get it. Like, we're, we're crying over like the ninth and 10th best teams in each conference to try to have a play in. And that's,

that's my big thing is that we all look. I think we all look at the playoffs as the first round is always the most entertaining, the best storylines, the most gut wrenching. And now you're going to have these playing games. You're going to risk, you know, ruining the first round because somebody's going to get in that's tired.

And then I agree with you. Like to me, do we want the 10th best team in a conference to suddenly get on fire and make it to the Stanley Cup final? Like, what's the regular season? season all about. I just don't, I just don't agree with it. I think that right now there are 32 teams in the National Hockey League. 16 make the playoffs. We have an 82 game regular season for a reason.

After 82 games, we know what the best 16 teams are in the league to now open it up to other teams. You know, what's it really accomplishing other than maybe to me a couple owners make a little more money. Coaches might say, all right, my job's safe now because I quote made the playoffs. know, I just don't, I don't agree with it. I think that we're fine. I agree with everything you I said. Everything. Go, Jesse. If we're going to make a change to the playoff and go out, rather than going straight one versus eight, this will never happen. But God damn it, give us a draft. Give us a draft. I want it so badly. I've been on that hill for a long time. You finish first overall. You pick who you play at the first draft. And then the second and then

the third and then the fourth gets whoever's left of the eight. It would make. so many more storylines. You'd have teams. Imagine the press conference after an upset. Yeah, that's right. They chose to play us and then we kicked their asses. It would be so great. I know the NHL won't do it, but please give it to us.

We want the draft. Two things I'll say about this. One, the 82 game season and then four rounds of the playoffs is a grind. It's a grind. It's a grind to watch. I couldn't imagine playing. I don't think we need anymore. And I understand the attraction to it, not only to have an extra game and revenue, but also just to keep fan bases interested that maybe would be out of the playoff picture.

But we already do that with the charity point. There are teams in the playoff race that shouldn't be in the playoff race because they're getting those charity points. That's true. In my opinion, leave it alone. Number four, guys, and I know we're probably going to have some opinions on this one. According to Gary Bettman, they held a poll. And fans don't mind ads on jerseys and they have no issues with the ads on the board. Gary Betman called it a non-issue.

We've talked about this, but I want to quickly get your opinions because I've always been, I don't mind the ads. I think people got to make money. I don't mind the ads on the jerseys. I don't mind the ads on the boards. But the one thing that's bugged me a little bit is during game play when the things are, as a puck's going along the board, suddenly it's changing. It is a little jarring.

That's just me. so, your thoughts? I don't agree. I agree with Gary. You don't have to. You don't have to. No. All right.

First thing I'll say is I'd love to know who they pulled. Okay, that I will say. I thought that was all very funny yesterday. We pulled everyone who works for us. It makes money for us. But the one thing I will say to the larger point. And this is just my own personal opinion is that I,

and here's a really good example, which I never get to do. but now we brought a sidekick here to Minnesota in Joe Smith. And he was just on the Western Canadian trip. It was a four-game trip. I started in Dallas, came home. So I watched all three games on TV. That's something that I never, ever get to do before.

I also watch a ton of games on TV on my off night. Last night, Washington, Toronto, all this stuff. I don't know what it is, but I've completely adjusted. At first, I was distracted by it. Now I don't even notice it. And, you know, that was the one thing that Batman said that I sort of agreed with is that when he made the comment, like, if you look at the boards, yeah, you're going to be distracted by it. But if you're just watching the game, you're not. And I'm paraphrasing what he said. And that's how I feel like I don't even notice it anymore. Maybe just on the Ballet Sports North telecast, I don't know if they just have the better, you know, where they've changed it up where it's not moving and all that type of stuff. It does seem to be stationary, at least on this. But I've watched other games as well. And I just. my eyes seem to just focus on what's going on in the rink and I don't even notice the ads. So that's just me.

I obviously that is just a personal thing that it just doesn't bother me. But I know a lot of fans are constantly complaining about it. So that that's my only other point is I do would love to know who the heck they pulled. Where was this poll? Can we see the results? You know, I just, that one I thought was funny. Yeah, I think I agree with most fans that I see on Twitter. complaining about this in that I don't think many people have problems with the boards when

they're stationary. It's when, like, I'm watching a Golden Knights game and there's a truck driving around the boards. And I'm like, what in the hell are we doing, you guys? Like, this is, and the problem with it is they're trying to sell this ad space and these advertisers are in their mind, we've got to make our ads stand out as much as possible. So while Gary says it's not distracting, the people who are paying to have their ad on there are actively doing the opposite. They are trying to make it as distracting as humanly possible. That's their entire purpose. They have teams of people who sit around in an office all day trying to figure out how to make it as distracting as they possibly can because their job is to draw eyes to it.

So it's never going to not be distracting, especially if you allow it to move. If you don't allow it to move, okay. but if you allow it to move, these ad companies are going to make it a distraction because that's their job. And then in terms of the Jersey ad, I agree. You don't even notice it during the broadcast. The only problem I haven't, and I realize this is a slippery slope fallacy. But please don't let it end up like European soccer where we've got the logo.

The logo is actually, yeah. Yeah, like, like I tried to get into Premier League soccer one year. And I was like, all right, Manchester United, they're the team. I'm going to go with because they used to be good and they're not anymore. I'm going to jump on the bandwagon. Let me buy a jersey. I go online and it's just a goddamn Chevy logo on their jersey. I'm like, never mind. Not for me. I'm not, I would never, you couldn't pay me to wear this crap. I'm not saying hockey jerseys are going there, but once you start putting logos on or ads on the jerseys, you look at like Russian hockey and it's like their jersey looks like a NASCAR with just ads plastered all over it.

As long as it stays where it is, I'm totally okay with the jersey ads. Just one ad on the shoulder. It's fine. You don't even notice it unless you're looking for it. As long as it stays there, I'm okay with it. I agree. Yeah. And I'm with you on the truck.

And our producer, Jeff Domit, just texted me as he's listening. He says, yes, that damn truck. It's true. Every whistle, change the boards for all I care. I don't care. That's not the distracting part. It's when game plays on the go. Last thing from the board of governor meeting guys,

World Cup of Hockey is still up in the air. As we know, they had to postpone it because of the landscape of the world and what's going on with Russia. And it looks like they're waiting for the International Olympic Committee to make a decision on the next Olympics as to whether or not to allow Russia to compete. I don't even know where to go with this because if the IOC says, yeah, Russia's in. Are they immediately turning around and saying, okay, let's schedule the next World Cup of hockey? Is it just what the IOC wants to do? Or is this a situation where the league should kind of just do what they think is right in this situation? Russo.

Yeah, I think it's a bit awkward, obviously, because of so many one Russian players in the National Hockey League, but so many incredible Russian players in the National Hockey League. And you don't want to have a World Cup that doesn't include the Ovechkins and the Caprissoffs of the world. And we just talked about Ovechkens. earlier on this segment and too it's like you know the longer we wait are we going to get to see him in another world cup but i i i do think that the league needs to be independent and make the proper decision from their standpoint um on this on this topic um you know i don't think if the ios just lets them in that the league should just say all right we're doing a world cup i think they've got to

assess what's going on with the geopolitical situation over there with the rush with russia and ukraine and and decide on their own um you know that make their own decisions and i think the league will Yeah, it kind of reminds me a bit of when the pandemic first started and it just felt like the NHL was just copying whatever the NBA did. It was like they were just kind of sitting there and it's like the NBA does this. Okay, we'll do it too. The NBA suspends their league. Okay, we'll suspend our league. The NBA is coming back. All right, we're coming back. I would rather they make their own decisions also and not just follow the leader on this. I think this is obviously very different because back then we it was just like even the scientists had no idea what was going on

like the whole world was trying to figure out what was happening i think this is a little different and they have more information and the ability to make their own decision so i agree with michael i think they will i could talk about i could talk about the nchel's reaction of the pandemic for like hours by the way that's a whole show so oh my god just one thing that i just want to rip on but my favorite thing is right the game before the pandemic interrupted the season. So that what was it, Tuesday or Wednesday, we're in Anaheim. And the night before the Wild were in LA, and two nights before we were in San Jose. And we were the first team, Minnesota was the first team where the Santa Clara Health Department came out and said, they need to cancel this game tonight, San Jose.

And I remember I emailed somebody from the league. I said, any chance you guys cancel? And he wrote back in the second, no. Okay. Two. days later, we're not allowed in locker rooms anymore. We were allowed to get players in the hallway. Staple centers, or crypto.com now is a big hallway. It was no big deal. We're in Anaheim the next night. I just think this is hilarious. Not allowed in the locker room because us media people could infect these players. So they made us after this game, Fiala scored the winning goal in overtime. They made us after the game, Jesse, you've been there. The tight Carter there in Anaheim. We're like, there was like, you know, like people.

with mops and equipment people going right by us, like squeezing us in this wall. I could not have been closer to Kevin Fiala as I was interviewing him. Like I was basically lip to lip interviewing them. That's how close we were. Okay. We weren't allowed in the locker room because the league said that we weren't allowed because it was unsafe. So get us in a tight crammed hallway with like hundreds of people right around us pressed

up against these players. It was like everything that was happening. It was just so nonsensical. And anyway, two days later, the freaking. league is put on hold. I also did a straight from the source podcast that Jeff DeMecis has to from Anaheim where I said there's no chance the NHL interrupts the season. And I still to this day want Jeff Dometh to spike that from our system. You know what we got to do in the new year? Just turn on Russo's mic, say, what do you think about how the NHL handle the pandemic?

And then Jesse and I can like go grab a coffee or whatever and just let him go nuts. Two more things before we go to break, guys. So I want your opinions on these. We're going to start with Gary Bettman. 30 years ago at these exact board of governor meetings in this exact, you know, location, he was voted in as commissioner. Can you believe it's been 30 years? A couple work stoppages, Hall of Fame career. He's in the Hall of Fame for what he's done as commissioner. When you think Gary Bettman in the last 30 years, what pops in your head. Jesse will start with you. Well, I can believe it's been 30 years because I was two when he was made commissioner. So I don't know what an NHL is like without Gary Bettman

being the commissioner. I have absolutely no, like, there's, for me, the N.A. Gary Betman is the NHL commissioner. There's never been another one. He's the guy. So I, that's what I think of is he is the NHL commissioner. I don't even know what another one's like. There is, there's never been another NHL commissioner. He's the first commissioner. They were presidents before. Okay, okay. Yeah. Um, you know, uh, yeah, same thing. I mean, I've only known the NHL with him as the commissioner. I started covering the league in 95 and he was there and he was a young Gary Batman. I'm amazed at how well he's aged. He looks basically the same. You know, and, uh, but I, look, you know, I, I understand that he gets a lot of hate, obviously because of the work stoppages and sometimes

there's maybe his demeanor when he talks to us, uh, you know, and to the fans and things like that. He's just got this, this kind of, you know, smugness to him and all that stuff. Um, when I'm around him, um, you know, he's a very cordial, nice person. I also covered the league in the 90s in the early 2000s and I think this league is so much better than what it used to be. It's not even funny. And I do think that all of us that love the league and love the entertainment of this league do have him to thank for that. I mean, you know, look, obviously there's many, many people that make this league a great league. And it's not like he sat there and makes the product on the ice as good as it is. But I covered that, you know, there were times in the 90s where there were a lot of unsuccessful

franchises. It was a plotting league. a slow league, a clutch and grab league. And I think a lot of the stewards of this league, including the commissioner, has made it as entertaining as it is today. So, you know, I'm one of those people that don't get as up in arms with Commissioner Bettman as a lot of fans do and a lot of people in the media do because I covered this league back then. And it really, to me, it was by far the fourth best league in the league in the world.

And now, like, you know, I don't look at it as a second tier league anymore at all. Quick Gary Bettman's story. A few days ago, I'm doing a feature for CBC Sports on the very short expansion of the Canadian Football League into the United States. So I interviewed Bruce McNaul who, of course, was the former owner of the LA Kings, brought Wayne Gretzky to L.A. And I was asking him just his biggest memories of that small three-year period where they decided to expand in the States. He said, well, I was going to Portland to talk to some potential owners to move a team to Portland. and that's where I first met Gary Bettman to try to convince him to become the commissioner of the National Hockey League. So without CFL expansion of the States, maybe Gary Bettman's not the commissioner of the NHL,

but he said, yeah, he actually was trying to get David Stern to come over and be the commissioner. And Stern said, I ain't leaving, but there's this guy Gary who might be good for the job. And here we are 30 years later talking about his Hall of Fame career. And last thing before we go, guys, the NBA made some news this week. they're changing the names of a bunch of their trophies. The big one, of course, the MVP will now be the Michael Jordan trophy. So I think everybody in their respective sports are saying, well, what if my favorite sport did this?

Sean Gentile and Haley Salveon did it on the site at the athletic. So I want you to fill in the blank. If I could change the name of one trophy, I would change the blank to the blank. Who wants to go first? I see Bruce was scratching his chin. So he's like, he's thinking. So maybe I'll let Jesse go first. Yeah, easy one for me. I'd change the Vezina to the Hachik.

I feel like while George Vezina is a big deal, I think most hockey fans, when they think goalie, they think Dominic Hachik. I guess you could maybe argue Brodur or Waw, but for me, Hachik is the guy. He's the best ever. And I think he also, like, embodies, like, I don't know, he was just a crazy man who, like, flopped all over the, I don't know. To me, he is goaltending. I'd go Vesina, change it to the Hachik. Plus, it just sounds good, the Hashik. It does. And I'd probably change the Art Ross to the Gretzky. You know, I mean, the guy, what, he won the trophy 10 or 12 times? Yeah. I mean, you know, and until Jeff Merrick tweeted it yesterday, and I feel bad for saying this as a hockey rater for now in my 28th season,

I had no clue that Art Ross had like one point in the NHL or two points of three. So like, like I had no clue. So that's, that just shows you. I love the, I think the Richard trophy is perfectly named, Although I'd call it the Pavel Burry trophy. No, no, I'm just kidding. You know, I think the Art Ross is the one that, like, to me, Gretzky's name, should be on a trophy. He is the great one, the greatest one. He's going to be number one in our NHL-99 project.

It's the reason why we're called it that. I just think that that's the one that should probably be changed. What about Patrice Bergeron as the Selky? No, hold on. That's the one we keep saying. So let me make my case for the Selki. And I know it's crazy because I love offense. I love seeing.

goals. I love it. So it's probably a bit shocking. Any of my friends are like, I can't believe Rob's doing the Selky. They made the award basically to give Bob Ganey something because of what he was doing. They said, this guy is the best defensive forward in the league and there's no, he's not getting the recognition. He wins the first four Selky trophies. If they make an award because of you, how the hell is it not named after you? I'm changing the Selki to the Bob Ganey. I mean, Bergeron certainly has a case. Datsook has a case. But if they're like, this guy is so good at what he does, we need to manufacture a trophy.

You got to name it after Bobby. If they ever do this, I do think that they, I mean, don't you think Gretzky gets the art Ross? Probably Ovi gets the Richard. I think Gretzky might get the heart. Gretzky might get the MVP, you know. I wrote Hart. I wrote Hart for Gretzky.

Yeah. I mean, that's what they did in basketball. They turned the MVP to Jordan and Hart's the MVP. Yeah, it makes sense. interesting to see but yeah everybody's been arguing about this and i've heard wah a lot for the cons flight too so i don't think i don't think it's i don't think it's going to happen anytime soon but if they were they do do it guys listen to this podcast we just gave our opinions uh somebody who has a lot of opinions john shannon he's now an author he can add that to his very long resume he's

going to be joining us after the break so don't go anywhere all right boys so every time we get a book, we're going to talk to the author about the book. I always do the same thing. I cut out a piece of cardboard. I use it as my bookmark and then I write little things that, you know, come out as I'm reading the book. And as I'm reading John Shannon's new book, Evolve or Die, I started highlighting just the crazy things that I was actually writing down. I've never written anything like this. So allow me to do this as John's waiting to come on. Number one, Shannon makes the prime minister crawl on the floor. Number two, Shannon tells Glenn Sather to fuck off. Number three, Shannon tells Mike Palmatier to fuck off. Number four, Shannon has drinks with Batman and my favorite, number five,

Shannon to fuck off. You didn't tell them to fuck off. Number five, Shannon interviews a naked John Davidson in the shower. If you heard all that and you don't want to read this book, I don't know what else to tell you. John Shannon joining us on the athletic hockey show. How are you, John? I am well, boys. It's great to be with friends. Yes, it is to talk about things like showering with John Davidson and doing interviews. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I've been in some weird interview situations and it's usually not like that.

But we're going to get into the book and I want to know all about it because I finished it last night. I really, really enjoyed it. What made you want to write? What way did you rather write the book? And also as a side question, you know, your job has been very technical and there's a lot of quote unquote inside baseball that comes to your job. How difficult was it kind of making it, you know, interesting while still making it, you know, attractive to maybe people who aren't in the broadcasting world, which I think you did really well.

Well, I'll answer the second one first. I think one of my strengths has always been as a producer is that I thought as a viewer. I never played the game. I can't speak about, you know, strategy. so I always thought about what I wanted to watch on television. And in many ways, I took the same approach with this book that I had to be able to explain it in a manner that a person who wasn't involved in television or wasn't really involved in hockey would understand it.

I think that's been my strength all along. And by the way, the editor pushed back four or five times saying, what do you mean by this? and then I realized I caught myself that that was going to be a problem, that that was going to be something I needed to delve into and explain why what context created scenarios in television and being on the air. So I think I had that approach in the beginning. The first question is I didn't want to write the book. And it took Simon & Schuster five.

years to convince me to write the book because I didn't think I was ready to write the book. I didn't think that I understood that I had enough stuff to write a book about. I probably have more now. That doesn't mean I want to write another book, by the way. I'm not like Rousseau who loves writing. Writing is work to me. So the answer is they finally convinced me after five years to be able to tell some stories and I actually read a book just before I started, and that inspired me, and that was Bob Iger's book.

Bob Iger is back now being the CEO of Disney, and after, on his way out the first time, he wrote a book, and half it was about his life in the business, and the other half was about leadership and about how he had to change the Disney Corporation. And so I kind of took that approach to the book about there's a few leadership stories. There's a few stories about relationships, as Iger wrote about. And then there was, I think a lot, what most people wanted to talk about is, what the heck is hockey night in Canada? What does it stand for? What is neat about it? And why did you think it was so special?

And I think that, you know, that was, the Iiger book meant a lot to me because I thought I had much more clarity about how to write. write a book after I read his. I think Dave Hodges' quote on the front of the book is really perfect. You know, it says, and I thought the announcer's not the producers had the interesting jobs in sports TV. John offers fascinating evidence to the contrary. And it is so true about this book, John. And, you know, one of the things that has always fascinated me about your career is that you've been in television your entire life. You work for the league in an executive role. How did you transition from going from behind, the camera to all of a sudden being one of the great insiders in the sport for years on on sports net working next to the great Doug McLean who has to be bummed that he's only mentioned

five times in the book by the way and Rimmer by the way is not mentioned once which I'm sure he's upset about and he didn't even get a free book which even pisses him out more so yeah no doubt about that but how did you make that transition like how did you become how do you have enough contacts to go from behind the camera as this incredible producer that's won Emmys to in front of the camera, breaking news and offering analysis on Sportsnet? Well, I wanted to work in the industry. I wanted it bad enough. I didn't want a real job.

I, you know, I, you know, I, in many ways, Mike, I, I started as a TV guy and I'm going to finish as a hockey guy. But this was just pure focus on saying that I believe that I can contribute. And, you know, I'm going to keep knocking on doors until people tell me that I can't anymore. And, you know, that's where the title of the book comes from. You know, you have to change all the time. You constantly change.

My father was a school teacher for 47 years. same job for 47 years. He would be apoplectic that I've had nine jobs in 47 years. But, you know, one way or the other, if I'm sitting talking hockey or talking broadcasting, I feel fulfilled. And I've been lucky enough since 1976 or 77 to be able to do that. And if somebody said, well, you can't do it anymore, I would find a way somehow to do it some other place. I don't want to steal parts of the book, but I tell the story about my career really, really parallels my golf game because I'm not a very good golfer and I go and hit the

ball and it goes under a tree and I actually think I can hit it under the tree onto the green. And that's what I've always thought about my career because I can get myself in trouble and I'll just get myself out and go back and start again. And that's, and it's not confidence. To me, it's just common sense, you know, because I think I have something to offer and I think I can do it in a manner, whether it's behind the scenes or on Mike or on camera, that people will go, wow, that's kind of cool. And, you know, I really believe in the wow factor of our business. Mike kind of mentioned it on that quote on the front. I really loved that too. And I think that, I think a lot of people probably know you as on the screen, just because the behind the scenes,

people don't get quite as much glamour, I guess. But it seems like based off the stories and a lot of the things that Rob mentioned, a lot of the exciting stuff happens for the people behind the scenes. Was it exciting for you to kind of let people know? Like, was there a part of you that wanted the readers and the people out there to see how cool of a job it is to be behind the scenes as well? When I was the executive producer of Hockey Night and Canada, it was the most powerful television job in our country.

the influence you had, the contacts you made, you changed, and I don't mean, I don't want to be overly dramatic, but you changed people's lives. You affected them every Saturday night. There's nothing greater. You know, those four little words, hockey night in Canada, still make the hair stand up on the back of my head. my head. It is the coolest thing ever. You know, I, you know, my first job was to, was for 10 bucks and an, and a light blue jacket. Man, oh man, there was nothing better. There was nothing better than that. 20 years old, walking around Maple Leaf Gardens like I owned a place. There was, it was just, it's magical. And then to be able to, over the years, do Stanley Cups in both countries, work for the league. running hockey night, changing how people watch the game.

I mean, that was fun. You know, in many ways, it was much more satisfying to be the puppet master than it was to be the puppet. Because behind the scene, and Rob knows me well, and it was very kind of you to think that I was behind the scenes. I got taught by a guy named Ralph Melanby. and Ralph Mellonby was the greatest executive producer in the history of Hockey Night in Canada. Ralph did nothing behind the scenes. Ralph was always front and center and I learned from that. So when I ran hockey night, there was a little bit of bravado for me in all the stuff that the announcers did that the games did.

And that was again part of the swagger that you had when you were part of hockey night in Canada. And that's what I wanted to ask you about, John, because if you go from page one all the way to page 250 of this book, Hockey Night and Canada is intertwined in there. And I could tell in both of your times, even when you return to hockey night, even when you wanted to make changes, even when you wanted to, as you mentioned the title of the book, evolve or die, there's such a respect for that institution. And it was the part of the book that I related to the most.

You can see, I've got a Hockey Night Canada towel here. I've got a jersey frame. Hockey Night Canada is in my blood. And the first time I got to work there was the most nervous. of my life, but I was so happy. Just how, is it in your blood too? Is that, is that kind of what you wanted to put out in the book? Oh, for sure, Rob.

Like, it's, it's my, it's part of my family. The people that I met are part of my family. It drives my wife crazy. You know, I, you know, I was, I didn't meet her until I was 10 years into my television and hockey career. So there are 10 years of stories that she wasn't. part of and she says, well, you know, but you're married now. And I said, yeah, I know, but things happened in 1981 and 82 and 83. You know, it was, you know, I, I, I joke about it that I was born in an

analog world and I live in a digital one. And what hockey night stood for in so many ways, not just on television but on radio in the old CBC days when we did Sunday night games it was so special and there was a belief that there was a belief in the brotherhood you know Dave Hodge who was kind enough to say those words is still one of my best friends Steve Armitage who was just put into the CBC Sports Hall of Fame

is one of my best friends there isn't a person at Hockey Night in Canada that I can't can't have a connection with over the last 45 years that there's there's the brotherhood. There's the bond. And it's television and it's hockey. And it's so much of what our country stands for. Talking about intertwined, you mentioned Ralph Melanby. And I wanted to ask you about him because, you know, the first father, son story that ever

wrote in my life was about Ralph and Scott Melanby. I remember sitting down with Ralph in, I believe, Montreal for this story when I covered Scott. And, you know, he always fascinated me because here you have this, you know, really, really good power forward in the National Hockey League. And his dad, um, who was very media friendly, Scott Melody. And I always thought that was one big reason was because of his dad. You know, his dad, his dad was the producer for Hockey Night Canada forever. He, I mean, there's so many innovations that we still see on TV today. It was in Ralph's head. Tell, he's intertwined throughout your book. Tell us, uh, some Ralph Melanby's stories.

and what made him so special and why he was so instrumental to your career? Well, Ralph had balls and you have to have balls in order to be the executive producer of Hockey Net in Canada. And Ralph knew the game. And the one thing that differentiated Ralph from any other producer that I worked with was Ralph's knowledge of hockey was as solid as his knowledge of television. And for too often, particularly in the early days, people didn't really understand the game of hockey, didn't understand how to cover the game of hockey. They just put the cameras and pointed into the ice and, you know, never explained how long the replays were and why the close-ups existed. But Ralph could do that. Ralph could tell you why things happened.

That's, I think, something that I learned from him. I always explain to people, here's what we're doing. Here's why we're doing it. And so Ralph really became the how and why guy for me. And he always, he always challenged you to use your imagination. Think outside the box, you know, and that's where Ralph's great genius became, was thinking outside the box. I mean, the first game we ever did in Calgary,

we put Danny Gallivan on a white stallion outside the corral. I mean, who would think of putting Al Michaels with a cowboy hat outside of a football stadium, but Melanby put Danny Gallivan on a horse outside the Stampede Corral as Hockey Night in Canada rode in to the Stampede City. Nothing was impossible to Ralph Melanby, and that's what I loved about him. And he challenged you to think all the time. I traveled a lot with Ralph over the years and the discussions we would have. And he would tell me stories about his days with sitting and working with Rune Arledge at the Olympics for ABC.

And he would try to bring some of that stuff home. And we tried to Canadianize things. And that's really what Ralph was all about. Ralph had a huge eagle. Make no mistake about it. Ralph would tell you he's the best producer. and he wasn't wrong. So having the ego, he could get away with it.

Mike, you talk about Scott. So Scott and Laura, his sister, I started producing games in late 78 and 79, and Scott and Laura came in, and they were nine and ten years old. They would come into the gardens in Toronto, wherever we were, and they'd sit in the seats,

and I've known Scott since he was nine years old, old. In fact, I rented my, he played on a midget team, the Don Mills Flyers, and I rented my house out to Scott and Janet and the kids over a Christmas because they played in the Max Midget Tournament in Calgary, and Scott was there with the Don Mills Flyers. So my affinity, my affection for the Melanby's, the Melamie family, Laura and Scott are still both great friends of mine, is, and a loyalty. That's the other thing that Ralph taught was loyalty. I pissed Ralph off a ton of times. I pissed him off all the time. And behind closed doors, Ralph would yell at me. And I deserved it. I deserved being yelled at. Why did you do this? You didn't ask permission. What are you thinking

here? But the moment we walked out of that room together and somebody criticized me, Melanby would be the first one to stand up and say, don't you pick on one of my guys. He's one of us. That's what made Melan me great. yeah john speaking of outside the box we were just talking on the first segment about the digital ads that are going around the league what would what's your impression of them and what would be your reaction if before the season if you were producing hockey night in canada the league came to and said hey by the way this is what we're going to be doing well i've told the commissioner this so i'm not telling school of the school 95% of the it's okay. But they've got to work on the last 5%. Like I don't want to see Alex Petrangelo skating

around the net and then racing with a Kia or a Hyundai up the board. I don't want to see that. That's that's a problem for me. You just lost your potential endorsement with Kia and Hyundai, by the way. I know. And I won one of those, I want one of those Hyundai, those those new electric cars. They look pretty good. And the other thing is, I think they have to work on the visual transition as the boards change. I don't mind that the boards change all the time, but they have to find a way to be much more subtle on how the boards change. The concept is fantastic. You know, with all the jobs I've had, I've worked for the league, I've worked for teams.

And if we could find a way to put our local rink boards in 82 games, that's magical. That's a revenue. that's a revenue winner. You know, when we talk about revenues in the NHL growing between sports betting and the digital boards, those are the two of the, and the logo, the patch on your sweater, those are the three things that are driving revenue right now to a point where we might see more of a cap increase. You know, Gary says only a million now. I don't believe them.

I think it'll be more by the time summer comes. But those are really. revenue drivers, but they need to work on the subtlety of it. The one thing at Hockey Night we were always concerned about was distracting from the puck, just creating extra movement. Don't put too many moving graphics on the screen while the puck is in play because you're taking it away from the viewer's chance to see the puck because we don't all see the puck all the time. What we do see is the flow of the game. We don't see the puck. And so I do think that they're going to work on it.

I hope they're working on it. But 95% I'm kind of with it. It's the 5% we need to tweak. John, I think when the general hockey fan watches a former coach or player as an analyst, they don't know what goes into it. They don't know how much someone like yourself can be behind them. And that was one part of the book that I found really fascinating. It was kind of glad it got out that way.

Some former players, become great analysts very quickly. Kelly Rudy is a great example of this. I don't want to give too much away, but you go in depth about Bobby Hall being an analyst and some of the things you liked and didn't like there. Would people be surprised to find out just how much there's a man behind that guy? They're so used to seeing with a stick, but now seeing with a microphone. Well, and the challenge, Rob, is it becomes more difficult the farther away from your career you get because there's lots of players right now that think, I'm going to be a broadcaster. And they can talk about firsthand experience of playing against Connor McDavid or Leon Dreisdell

or Austin Matthews or Artemey Panarin. But five years from now, they're not going to be able to talk about more than two guys in the league because the turnover is so heavy. That's the challenge. You can measure in certain situations. One year in, you can say, okay, this guy's got a good cadence. He's got a nice voice. You know, he still has the attitude of he wants to go to the rink.

He doesn't mind being on the dark side, as we used to joke about it, being in broadcasting, because the players think we're the dark side. But he won't go in the room. Well, why won't you go in the room? Well, that's their world. No, no, no. Listen, if you're going to be part of our business, you've got to go in the room. You've got to be able to sit down beside a player who you might have,

fought with or you might have had contact with and talk to him about some stories. Oh, I don't want to do that. Well, then you know what? This guy's not a, he's not a lifer. He doesn't believe in the business. He's just trying to, he thinks it's easy because you just go on and talk. And you see tons of those guys. You see tons of them everywhere. It's that four to five year generation of a player that is challenged to say, listen, I can make a real career out of this. I can do something really, really good with my life, that maybe I didn't do as well as when I was playing for 10 years in the NHL that I took for granted when I was a player. And you can see those guys a mile away. You know, my best friend in the business is John Davidson. You knew from the first time

he was in the booth. He cared and wanted to be in this business and worked at it and got to the point, Rob, where he was so good at his job on the air, teams were phoning him at home on the off nights to get scouting reports on the opposition or on a player, should we trade for him. He became an influential person in the game because of his institutional knowledge on a daily basis. Nick Kiprios, who I didn't think had any chance to be a broadcaster, worked his ass off and became a quality broadcaster and understood what it took to work as hard as anyone in the business for a long period of time. And that's the measure of people. You know, Eddie Olick's the same way.

You know, it's funny. I used to laugh. Dale Tallon, who I've known since he was a player, Dale used to drive me nuts. I worked with Dale a few times, but worked alongside Dale many times. And Dale would walk into the rink with no notes, with nothing. Barry even had a program with the numbers on it and got his way through. But his philosophy was that he wanted to use his eyeballs to judge players, which proved to be his real strength is he was a good player personnel guy, a good scout.

It wasn't a good broadcaster, but he had a really good eye for talent on the ice. and that's why he became a general manager in the national hockey league. You know, Eddie Old Check worked at it and talks to people and networks with people. It's a 24-7-365 job. I don't have to tell you three guys. When you do this business, you're always on your phone. The phone is always ringing. You're always getting an email.

And you have to be prepared to ask a question. you know and you have to have the ability to say I don't really know this person but I'm going to phone them and I'm going to ask them a question and maybe by the end of the week we're going to be friends and then then there's going to be a dialogue and it doesn't matter whether it's an owner or the assistant trainer something's going to come out of it and you're going to be able to tell a story and that's what that's what this side of the business is all about J.D. still to this day I think is one of the best color guys ever. He was just absolutely awesome. Do you mention a guys transitioning. Doug McLean's another one. Like, he went behind the mic and became as honest as anybody

ever that was an analysis. John, before you answer that, I did want to just throw you one thing. Tell us about your new life here is teaching the next generation of sports media people. Well, I do. I teach a television production at a small two-year college called the College of Sports Media in Toronto. I do it, you know, I do it two days a week. And, We basically start at ground zero about how to tell a story, how to create pictures, how to do research, how to justify it, the fine line between information and opinion. And I'm sure that by the end of the year, I get the kids for nine months. I'm in the second year of the program. They get stuck with me for two days, eight-hour sessions.

And I'm sure half of them think I'm the world's ugliest person because I'm as passionate about teaching as I am about broadcasting. Because I want the business to be better. I want the business to be good. And I don't want, I want people to go and get jobs that are qualified and then can ask the next question. Because in our business, it's a proactive, business. For every action on the ice, there's two reactions. And if you understand that,

for everything that happens to one team, how does it affect the other team? If you understand that, then you can tell a story and you can analyze. And I try to tell people, don't over talk to your audience. Don't. I mean, my favorite line is if I hear another announcer say F1 in deep, I'm going to puke. Because, you know, or here's my, my favorite one. And my friend Cherry used to do this. For all you young kids out there who played the game, well, there aren't that many. You know, if he has two and a half million people watching on that Saturday night, there's like 150,000 who played. So we're going to talk to 150,000, not to 2.5 million. We've got to talk to the audience. We've got to talk to the larger group

who want to learn about it and want to be able to say, wow, I didn't know that. And that's what I'm trying to convince the kids of on a weekly basis for eight or nine months a year. It's funny, Russell, that you asked him about teaching. I've worked with John for a season on Hockey Central Saturdays, which was basically red zone for hockey on Saturday night, five hours every Saturday night we were on the air together. And this man never stops teaching. Every single commercial break, John had something to say, hey, let's do this. Let's do it that way. and I tried soaking up every single thing you could give me, John, because I started this interview by saying you told two people to fuck off.

You told me to fuck off once. And that was because when you said your first Stanley Cup final was 1980, I said, that was the year I was born. And you said, fuck off, Piso. But I still tried to soak it up everything you did. The book is Evolver Die, Hard One Lessons from a hockey life, John Shannon, who was behind the scenes, in front of the scenes, and now can add author to the resume.

John, thanks so much. Guys, it was a real pleasure. And by the way, I'm a subscriber. Thank you. Good to hear. John Shannon, go pick up the book in time for Christmas. After the break, rapid fire. So don't go in there.

All right, boys, our favorite time of the show and yours, rapid fire. We're going to start with Bo Horvatt, who basically said, he's done talking, released a statement saying he's going to focus on the team and winning in Vancouver. Of course, you know, the speculation that he turned down that extension, he's going to be a UFA after this season. Is he going to be traded? Is he going to test a free agency market?

We don't know, but we got to stop asking him because he's not going to talk about it. Jesse, your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, I understand why. But at the same time, like, this is, I mean, it's hockey. This is a business. Everyone's here. sports fans like sports because of the drama around it. It's not just the skill on the ice.

Like a lot of it is that, but it's also the storyline of the year. And when you've got a player who's scoring 20 goals, who's as good as Beau Horvett is, and he's in the final year of his contract, people are going to ask. So it kind of reminds me of when Pete DeBore, when it was Mark Andre Fleury and Robin Lennar and net, at the beginning of the year, he was like,

all right, I'm not going to announce who the starting goal he is ever this year. So don't ask me. We all kind of looked around in the room like, no, we're still going to ask him. Like, he's like, he's not going to tell us, but we're still going to ask him. So I expect Borovat to get at least one more question about this by the end of the year. Yeah, exactly. So that's, by the way, Jesse, like Randy Carlisle, he used to get angry if he asked him who was starting the goalies. So we all, as Raiders, we like tried to make him angry.

He's starting. Yeah, you know, I don't think the timing was at all, you know, shocking just because, one, the reports out that he, that he, you know, apparently. rejected this extension, which is definitely true. But also they have so many games coming up against Canadian teams, you know, Calgary. They've got like three games against Winnipeg in the next couple of weeks as well. So, you know, he's Edmonton media. So he knows he's going to just get flooded with these questions everywhere he goes, whether it's home or away. So I think he just wanted to get it out there and all that stuff. Look, he's, he's going to be traded. They're now, I'm sure, getting inundated with calls. This is going to be there. They should get a haul for him.

You know, there is, this is not just to me your normal pending UFA rental. One, you could get a jump on it. We all know that Jim Rutherford likes to make moves early, even though he's technically not the GM, you know, but him and Patrick Alvine seem to work in concert together. But I just think that, you know, you have a guy that's in just not even 30 yet, you know, in his 20s, he's an absolute true number one center. He's going to go somewhere and elevate whatever team, whether he resigns them or not. And that's going to be the interesting thing is that, you know,

is the team that's willing to give up a haul, somebody that thinks that they could resign them, or is it somebody that just is going to think they're going to need him to go on a long playoff run? And we just mentioned the cap situation. But what he's going to want in a free agency, there's not a lot of teams that right now can probably extend them. But I just think that it's just a matter of time now where Bo Horvett is going to be traded. And we got our trade board coming out tomorrow at the athletic.

And I think you'll see Bo Horvett's name right at the tippy top. what a Syung year he's having two. 20 goals, nine assists. Like just get to that double digits that it doesn't look as bad. Topic number two, guys, we use the term beast way too often in sports, myself included. But I'm going to use it again because Tage Thompson is an absolute beast. 21 goals, 41 points through the first 28 games of the season. Two more last night.

We're talking about a guy who already has a six point game, already has a five goal game. And he just. hops on your TV screen, and that probably has a lot to do with the fact that he's 6-6. But I feel like everything's finally come together after last year's kind of, you know, coming out party. This is the year of Tage Thompson, in my opinion. I agree. And we're on one of the athletic hockey shows next week. We might have a little podcast with him and I. I'm actually going to Arizona on Saturday, and I'm going to be sitting down with him after their morning skate. I agree with you. I think I mentioned on the show a couple of weeks

ago that I watched the game in Montreal a couple years ago and Tage a couple weeks ago. And Tage looked like he could have had 20 goals that game. Every single shift he dominated. It was like men against boys. I mean, he's so big. He skates so well. And I remember when they gave him that big contract, when Kevin Adams gave him big contract, I was thinking of myself, what the heck? And I think Sabers fans were too. Because, you know, we've asked, like, there's been a lot of talk on Twitter, like, what do you think of Tage Thompson a couple years ago? And, I was a couple years ago. I think Sabers fans all thought that he was going to be a bust. And now this is one of those rare trades in NHL history where it was perfect for both teams, right?

I mean, Tage goes to Buffalo and is giving them a potential star, or it's not even potential. He's there right now. And Ryan O'Reilly goes to St. Louis and helps him win a cup. It's pretty good trade for both teams. I think both GM should be happy themselves, or at least the former GM in Buffalo, Bottle, Bottle. Tage is awesome. He's just, you guys both mentioned it. his size and his hands at that, like, you're not supposed to have hands like that when you're that big.

Like most guys, it's like you're either small and you've got the hands and you've got the hand-eye coordination to kind of get in and out of those tight spaces or you're big and you can bulldoze through, but you necessarily aren't going to finish as much. This guy is a tank. He goes to the net and he's got the hands to finish. It's amazing to me how often he deeks the goalie out of his pads and then just kind of like skates around him and tucks it around the post. Like he's done it multiple times.

I can't think of any other player in the league that's, scored that type of goal more than once this year. His hands are unreal in tight. He's fun to watch. And he hammers the puck. Right. That's a shot he had the other night. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's he, I mean, he's got everything you need. And you mentioned like he's six six. When you say six, I'm like, man, it seems like he's like six nine because he's a center taking face off. Like he looks bigger because he's not a defenseman back there being six six. Like when you're when you're six as a defenseman, it doesn't stand out as much as it does for him. He's a lot of fun to watch. I actually covered his dad down in Florida. I can't remember if his dad actually played a game for the Panthers,

but he was definitely there two or three years, a minor league player, and he was called up a couple times. And I used to sit with them in the press box and talk with him when he was scratched after call-ups. And he was one tough SOB. I mean, I remember interviewing Paul Laws about Brent Thompson, who I think is still coaching, right, Hartford? Is he coaching, you guys? I'm pretty positive. He's still an HL coach. But anyway. Anyway, I remember talking to Paul Laws, who is the toughest player that I've ever covered. And he said Brent Thompson could go toe to toe with anybody back then. And he had, I mean, you know, hundreds and hundreds of penalty minutes, both in the NHL and the HL.

And, you know, just a heck of a player in his own right. He reminds me, and hear me out here, of Chara, Zadano Chara. When Chara first came in the league, he was, we'd never seen a player, like, looked like that. And at first it was almost an awkwardness. There was an awkwardness to him that he needed to feel, feel it out and learn how to use his body in the right way. And when he did, watch out, I feel like this is the year Tage Thompson has done that. Because last year it was all about shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. This year, he's still hammering the puck.

But like Jesse said, he's scoring goals in tight that you're not supposed to be able to do that. You're not supposed to have that kind of coordination when you're built like he is. He's just been absolutely incredible. And by the way, just one correction. Thompson was coaching Bridgeport, not Archer. There you go. Darryl Sutter. Another great Daryl Sutter quote to talk about Leafs and Flames Saturday night in Toronto.

Three seconds in overtime and Jonathan Huberto gets a high sticking call. Of course, the Leafs win. And of course Sutter's asked about it. And he said, quote, and I'm not even going to try to do a Daryl Sutter impression. That's the one thing I learned a long time ago when you're in Chicago all those years and you come to Toronto, you know what's going on. I won't say nothing more. I know coaches are always lobbying and there's crowd influence in certain ranks,

but I just thought it was interesting that he's saying, you come to Toronto expecting it calls against you. You're getting calls against you because your team's getting beat on the ice by a fast team that draws. Like, how do penalties get drawn when you have the puck a lot and when you're faster than the other team because you've got to grab guys as they're going past you. Toronto is better and faster than Calgary right now.

that's how penalties get drawn. Yeah, it certainly doesn't help Toronto in the playoffs. Anytime anyone could just take a jab at the Leaves playoff, woes. It's always fun. Yeah, they get the calls on the regular season only. And then the reps go Yonston. Last rapid fire topic, guys, and Jesse, we're going to start with you on this one because it deals with Jack Eichel on the IR again,

lower body injury must miss seven days. And it's interesting. We were kind of chatting about this off the air, and I'll bring it on to the air. That 2015 draft, if it was held again, are we still looking, you know, we've talked about Mitch Martin, we've talked about ICO, we've talked about McDavid.

Obviously, McDavid goes first, but are you drafting any differently there? It went McDavid, Eichael, Strom, Marner, Noah Hannafin. Are you taking Ikel or are you taking Marner? I would still take Ikel. And like I said, off the air. I didn't appreciate Jack Eichol's game as much when he was in Buffalo.

like I knew he was a spectacular player, but I didn't see him every day. I didn't watch him every night like I do now. I think maybe if I watched Marner every night, maybe I'd have a bias towards that way. But first of all, he's a center, and centers are more valuable than wings for the most part in hockey. So I think if there's a tie, it goes to the center. But also, I'm just, I think Jack Eichols really, really good. I think, yeah, he's had some injury problems. I think this is not going to be a long, long-term one.

I think he'll be back pretty soon. But he's been so good this year. I mean, not just the goal scoring and the playmaking that you know about, but Bruce Cassidy challenged him to improve his defensive game this season. And he has. I mean, he has, last time I checked, he has the most goals above replacement defensively. His defensive metrics are leading all forwards in the NHL. It's been like a week since I checked that and he's been hurt.

So maybe somebody's passed him since then. But he has been one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL this year. He's finally using his, like he's got one of the best. best first two steps in the league in terms of just explosion. And you think offense when you think that, but he's really using that to close on guys. He's using his strength to win stick battles. When he, when he's on, he is insanely good. Not that Mitch Marner isn't, but yeah, I would still take Ikel. You mentioned how you've grown an appreciation, Jesse, of his game on the ice. How about off the ice? Because at the NHL Media Tour, he was super affable to all of us. You know,

I cover Marcus Flino here in Minnesota, and he has long told me. In fact, Marcus was hoping when the Wilde were in on Ikel that they would get Ikel, but Marcus has long told me that he gets a bad rap and is a great guy. Yeah, I totally agree. I think the reputation Ikel had in Buffalo by some upset fans that didn't win as much as they'd like to. I think he got a lot of the blame when he shouldn't have. And I think he gets, like, the whole, like putting it on him as not being able to win enough games, okay, I get it.

But then you hear things like he's not a good teammate. And I don't hear that at all. Like, everything I hear in Vegas is the Golden Knights players are more than happy to have him. He's one of the better guys in the room. And with me, he's been nothing but professional. Here's what I, he's a little bit of a smart ass. Like, I'll admit that. And like, I like my athletes to have a little bit of, like, flair.

Like, these guys are the best, they, they ride around on blades on the ice and they hit people and they score goals. Like, they should have some, like, I don't know, some spark to their personality. Swagger. Swagger. Yeah, some swagger. That may rub some people the wrong way, especially when you're losing. For me, it doesn't. I like that Jack Eichl has some swagger.

I like that he'll give you a little smart-ass answer every once in a while. Everybody goes back to his little shot he took at the Buffalo fans. They booed 18,000 people booed him for three straight hours. You don't expect the guy to chirp back at you. He's a hockey player. We're hockey fans. We love these guys to chirp. But then when they chirped back at the fans after their boom,

and we're all upset, like no. I like Jack Eichol. I think he gets a bad rap unnecessarily because he was on a team that lost a lot. I have no problems with Jack Eichol off the ice. You know what I always say is that nobody has thinner skin than the media. You know, like we critique these guys all the time. And yet if somebody ever comes up to like, you know, gives this little rip in the locker room.

We're just like, oh, pissy. And like, where do you get off and all that stuff? Like I asked, you know, Matt Bold. I still don't think it was a dumb question, but I asked Matt Boldie a question the other day. You know, a lot of people online were like, oh, my God, he really gave up to you. And I actually thought it was hilarious, his reaction to me. And, like, I have no problem with that stuff ever. The only time I'll ever get ticked with a player, like, I once asked a player, I won't say who it was.

This is going to make me sound awful. I asked the player a question, he rolled his eyes at me. I waited to the scrum to dissipate, and I went up to the player. I'm like, let me just tell you, right? right now. I've been covering this league longer than you've been alive. Don't ever roll your eyes at me again. You know, like that? I did say that once. And he actually, like, totally apologize and got it and all that stuff. But like, like, I think a lot of the Jack Eichel stuff just comes from like, you know, it was a lot of stress in Buffalo, a lot of stress. And there was a lot of quarrel sometimes

the media in him. And I think that's part of it. Looks like he's having fun now in Vegas, maybe Vegas. All right, guys, what are we working on this week? Ristel, we'll start with you. Yeah, got a really, really cool Ryan Reeves piece coming out that's going to run probably just before Christmas. We were going to do it December 27th when the wild go to Winnipeg, but I'm a little worried that he might even not play that game because the wild are getting healthier and he could be the odd guy out. So we're going to run it right before. But I talked to his dad the other day. He's one of the best CFL players ever MVP of the league was once traded in a trade with Taylor Hall's dad from Edmonton to Winnipeg. How about that? I texted him this yesterday. I'm like,

hey, am I reading this right? The way, like I clicked this hyperlink, and it looks to me like you were traded with Steve Hall once, who happens to be telling him. He's like, yep. And then I'm talking to Jordan Reeves, his brother who plays in the CFL now, who's also married to a NASCAR driver, by the way.

I'm talking to him tomorrow for this awesome story where that might be even today that I'm talking to him. So that'll be cool. And then I mentioned I'm going to Arizona, sitting down with, I shouldn't give all this way, but I'm sitting down with Maddie Nyes and his dad, Austin Matthew's dad,

I'm doing some podcasts with Tage Thompson, Kevin Adams, Bill Armstrong. So a lot of really cool stuff that will be coming up that you'll not only read, but you'll be hearing some of this stuff on the athletic hockey shows next week. Cool. That's a bunch of good stuff, Michael. I don't have nearly as much stuff. No, I'm writing a cool story on player numbers, the numbers that they wear on their jerseys for the Golden Knights. I've gotten some good stories from the guys about how they've got their numbers,

how other guys have got their numbers, a lot of fun. And then also a gear story. I'm just obsessed with hockey gear. So I'm writing a national gear story just about like the brands that players use. It's a lot of fun. Have you talked to Mark Andre Fleury for that story, by the way? Like he's fascinating. He just for the first time changed from a wooden stick to a graphite, which he hates,

by the way, because he when he snaps it, when he like slams it over his goalpost, it doesn't break anymore. But the other one is he like, you know those callings on the bottom of his skates? Like he's like the only one in the league that still doesn't have like the one, like where it's just. Yeah. Like he's the only one. in the league apparently that has maybe him and Brian Elliott he said that like you know

you actually have to screw it on there and things like that he's a fascinating guy you know like a lot of these guys as you mentioned like with these gears like some of these guys wear gear that they wore when they were in juniors Eric Stahl wears these mesh shorts that he wore in juniors still to this day it's crazy

Phil Kessel's underwear that he like all the gear he wears under his stuff looks like it was from the Civil War Like it's insane. Are there mustard stains on it from the hot dogs or not? Oh, stop it. Stop it.

All right, boys. Thanks. I promised a fantastic show and we end up with mustard stains on Phil Kessel's underwear. How can that not be labeled as fantastic? I want to remind everybody, if you want to hear more about mustard stains on underwear, it's pretty simple. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Don't forget to leave a rating and a review.

I want to let you know some other things you can listen to. Derek Lal. Detroit Red Wings head coach joined Sean Gentile and Max Boltman on the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. And Bill Garon is going to join Joe Smith and Rousseau on the final straight from the source of 2022 this coming Friday. And remember, you can get an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $2 a month for a year when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. The athletic hockey show returns Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes round for Jesse. For Russo. I'm Pizzo.

We'll see you next week.