The Athletic Hockey Show - Are the Canucks prepared to move on from Pettersson and Miller?

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

On the first new Wednesday show of the year, Gentille, Corrado and McIndoe discuss the dysfunction in Vancouver between Elias Pettersson and J.T. Miller and if the Canucks are prepared to deal both players, they take a closer look at the unique contract extension signed by Anaheim Ducks forward Frank Vatrano and surprise teams who have moved up and down the standings in the past few weeks including the feel good Columbus Blue Jackets, the red hot Vegas Golden Knights and the stumbling Carolina Hurricanes. Hosts: Sean Gentille and Sean McIndoeWith: Frank CorradoExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What up, what up? Is the athletic hockey show? Wednesday edition. Frankie Carrado, Sean McIndoo, Sean Gentilly are here. Happy New Year. I'm not sure if we're still in the window here. It's January 8th.

But we haven't talked. So whatever. I feel weird coming into this conversation and not saying happy new to you, to you boys. How are we doing? I'll say happy new year to you, but I will not type it in emails anymore. I think that's right. I will type it in text messages. And in a couple days, I'll stop saying it.

Like I, but I think I'm at the point where, like, no, it's, if I got to email you, I'm just going to get right to it. I'm not going to throw in Happy New Year at this point. We're done with that. Frankie, as a new dad, did you have an overwhelming urge to tell everyone, see you in a year, see you next year at the end of December? Like, was that, did that instinct kick in? right after I put on my white new balances with a gentle, I know it's the winter,

but there still has to be like a little bit of grass stained on those from mowing the lawn in the summer. Right after I put those on, that's when I said that joke. And Christmas morning, did you shake the garbage bag at the twins while they were opening their presents? Make sure that they... Garbage bag duty is the best, man. I was actually mostly trying to prevent them from eating the wrapping paper.

I would do it too. Yeah. That's what my, my, my mom was still doing that on Christmas morning. I'm 38 years old. It's mine. Frank,

you're, you're switching between new balances and the Nike Air Monarchs. Those are your, those are your choices for, for shoes these days. For the rest of my life, actually, you need to pick,

pick your fighter and, and we're living with it for the next hour of many years. Man. All right, boys. Eventually, we're going to talk about a very interesting contract.

It was signed a couple days ago. We're going to talk about, some major movement up and down the standings, not just in the last couple weeks since we've talked, but really in the last, in the last week or so, we've got movement all over the map. But I wanted to start out today with Trade Talk. It's, we're in that season. We've been in that season for a while. That's not a surprise.

We've been running trade boards, CJ and Pierre and whoever else are, are on the horn regularly talking about this stuff. But the big change over the last few days. And this is from Pierre and a couple other folks, obviously. The Canucks are talking to rival teams about Elias Pedersen and J.T. Miller. They're listening. The conversations are happening. Vancouver is in a wildcard spot at the moment, but the mix has been off there, really, really all season. Frank, I'll start with you.

How surprised are you to see this happening on January 8th? Because that's, to me, that's part of the surprise, is that we're already, you know, pushing the button a little bit here. But you know what I would say to that? It's not just that it's January 8th. It's that these two guys and whatever has been going on between them has run through three head coaches there. Like this was happening under Travis Green. It happened under Bruce. And now it's still happening under Rick Tuckett, who was in Pittsburgh, you know, like the Malkin Kessel whisperer. Like if there was ever a coach, you know, that could connect with J.T. Miller and level with this guy, it was going to be Rick Tocke. Like, that's right in his wheelhouse. But this is still happening. And so I guess if you look at it that way, how surprised can you be?

Like at some point, something has to give. I guess where I'm surprised is that between the two players. And, you know, you could go back, I'm sure to, hey, you did this. Well, I did this because you did that. Well, I did that because you did that. Like, I'm sure you could do the dominance. know on that and go back five years or whatever it is. And then you wouldn't even know exactly why this is happening because it would get so convoluted and diluted along the way. But the fact

that those two guys have not been able to kind of get on the same page or coexist, that is what surprises me. Because we've talked about this. You work with people in life. You play on the same hockey team as some guys. Not everyone gets along. But when it comes to looking for some common ground on trying to achieve a goal. Like, people can do that. They can coexist in that way professionally. But we've gotten to the point where if this is really going to happen, like that, that seems to be out the window. And once, you know, I think once you start opening Pandora's box here and saying one of these guys has to go, well, one of those guys has to go.

Because I don't know, I don't know how you can go back on that anymore. And I thought that I was done being surprised by this story. Until Saturday night, I'm watching Hockey Night and Elliot gets on and he says, there are basically three options here that fans need to be prepared for. And option one is they trade one of these guys. Option two is they don't. Option three is they trade both guys. And that's where I kind of sat up and went.

That is the one scenario that I didn't anticipate. I mean, we almost never see a team trade a player of the caliber of either of these guys in the middle of the season. My assumption, though, was they would pick one guy to move forward with, one guy to show the door, and you move on. And now the fact that, you know, for Elliot, who is not a guy who just throws stuff out there on Hockey Night in Canada to get a reaction, for him to say it could be both guys. And they're, as far as I've seen, no pushback from the team. No, you know, the usual suspects didn't jump up and go, well, hold on. No, no, no. I mean, that's a major.

That's a major. If it, if it weren't true, you would have heard something about it. Dude, they threw gasoline on it. Like, given the people that are involved. The Canucks are a notoriously tough organization to get information out of. And yet, they've clearly been part of managing expectations on this, as they should. You can't just drop this. on a fan base out of nowhere.

But this is, you know, for me as an old guy, this is reminiscent of like the 80s and 90s, the pre-cap days where stuff like this did happen. You saw guys, you know, guys would hold out, guys would sit out, guys would walk away from teams and big stars got traded during the season sometimes.

And we just don't see this anymore. And, I mean, it really sounds like, you know, at this point, I'd be surprised if one of these guys doesn't get moved. and now maybe both guys getting moved feels more likely than neither.

And that's amazing to me because the way it's always been framed and like you hear different versions of rumors and whatever else. But like it's a personality conflict. Those guys are built differently. They approach the game differently. They've, you know, we've heard some version of, you know, they're not, they're not, they're not particularly tight going back a few years now, which is fine. It's like Frank said, there's, you know, you're not always friends with the people you work with, and sometimes that leaves the trades and whatever. But the fact that it's gotten to such a point now where, like, you're going to pull the lever and move both of them, like, you're not even picking one. That always seemed like that was a logical outcome is you pick the player whose skill set and whose personality kind of, kind of is going to define the room moving forward.

and you let you let them set the tone. And now it's like the idea of them choosing neither. Like road number three is just wild after all this. I think you also have to remember a little bit of the history lesson here in Vancouver. They had Bo Horvatt and he was the captain of the team. And the priority for the management group at the time, which was the Benning group, we got to get J.T. Miller done. And they got J.T. Miller done and they allocated those funds.

and they kind of threw Horvatt like on the back burner. And Horvatt didn't like that. Like he didn't like the way that whole thing went down. And he is said as much. And so you've prioritized Miller once. And now, I guess, you know, you have what can be a franchise star centerman in Elias Pedersen who hasn't played up to what his contract says he should play at. Now, why hasn't he done that?

You know, that's up for debate. Like there was talk that he had some, you know, quote unquote tendinitis in his knee that, you know, hasn't allowed him to play at the level he has. Like I know with Pedersen, if there's some kind of injury or ailment, like it does affect him. He has a harder time playing through that kind of stuff. So that, that has to be on the table. But everyone deals with that kind of stuff. We saw Leon Dreisel play in the playoffs and light it up with a, you know, a high ankle sprain.

Like, it's guys have to play through that kind of stuff. That's getting away from the point. I guess my point is you've prioritized Miller over one big time, you know, big time, you know, player in your franchise already. Are you going to prioritize Miller again over the 26-year-old guy who can be an elite number one center in the NHL? And then the question I would ask after that, if you do and you move on from Pedersen and he gets away from Miller and his personality and he goes somewhere else and he turns into the perennial 9,500 point player, like, what were you thinking? Like, did you not see this coming? I don't know.

Like, it's a delicate situation. In a big part of the conversation, too, is about the time frame. Because, yes, Pedersen signed this contract, his no movement protection doesn't kick in until July 1. So that's part of the underlying thing here, too, right? Is that at least theoretically now they have their choice if they want to move them. They don't have to have his. approval of the destination, which is all well and good. It seems like you're unnecessarily,

unnecessarily rushing it because you're trading this guy at, you know, the lowest his value has been in the last, in the last four years. It just doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem like smart asset. He has no trade value in a few months because the no trade kicks in. Exactly.

Like if you're going to send him to, to pick a team, the Buffalo Sabres, it has to happen. over the next couple of months because he's not going to agree to waive a no trade to go to that. Oh, God, absolutely. I mean, he's going to tell you to stuff it. Yeah, I can say, see you later.

And that's the answer to the question. Like, why is this happening now? Like, why are we having an Alliance Pedersen, you know, these 26? He was, you know, scored a zillion points over the last couple years. Dude, you know why it's happening now? I'll tell you exactly why it's happening now because the team's not playing well. Correct. Like that's why, because if the team was playing well, like last year, we weren't.

talking about this. Why? Because it was gangbusters. Everyone was getting the cookies. Everyone was scoring. Demko was unbelievable. Hughes was winning the Norris. Stuff gets quiet. When everything's going well, stuff gets quiet. When guys get frustrated, when they're not scoring or when the team's not playing well and guys are injured, that's when all these frustrations bubble to the surface. And then whatever feud that we forgot about, you know, like, it comes back up. It comes back up. And it's like, oh, yeah, actually, I remember you did this or like, now you're not doing that. And then there you go. We're right back because if they were winning, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can guarantee it.

First in the Pacific, we would not be talking about these kinds of things. No, they're scuffling around the wild card and they're remembering how much they don't like each other from two years ago. So Frankie, help me out with this. Again, to go back to this idea that they could actually move both guys, am I reading too much into it to think that that means one or two things has happened? either the other guys in the room are just sick of both of these guys to the point where it's like, you know what, I'm not picking aside. Or is it is it the other way, which is so much of the room has picked aside that you've now got these two warring factions in the room and you, if you move one guy, that means the other faction wins and you're still in a mess.

And so you've got to cut off both the heads, so to speak. Like is it, is a good point. I, I, I think it's very valid. And, you know, like these, these kinds of things, right? So you got your close friends that you're on the team with and you talk to them and the communication line's very open. It's like, well, I said this and I said that. And guys sit around.

They're like, yeah, no, man, I totally get it. Like, you know, like, what the hell is he thinking? Well, the other guy's having the same conversations with his four or five best buddies out to dinner, right? So you're right. Like, there might be a little bit of that. It's just like if you're if you're the coach or the management, you're not around. You don't see like the dynamic in the dress room.

So it does turn into a little bit of a he said, she said type thing. You know, what's the what's the stories that you're getting? It sucks. This sucks for everyone. You think Quinn Hughes does like Quinn Hughes shouldn't be dealing with this garbage. I was just about to say they should just pick the one that Quinn wants to stick around. Make him choose like the kid in a. in a toxic divorce.

Yeah. And I'll tell you this. If you move on from Pedersen, you are openly admitting that the contract you gave him was a massive mistake. Which is 15 minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say this. Like, what is it? 11. Is it 11.75? I can't remember off the top of my head. Like, I don't think, like, I don't think anyone was forcing you to go that high. I think when that number came in, it was like, oh, like, there's. really repaying him and they believe in him. Like, you probably could have got him for a little bit less. Whatever. Like, that's, that's, you know, looking back revisionist history. But like, you're basically openly admitting, like, we don't believe in this guy. We shouldn't have given him

the contract. And now we're going to try and get out from it. That's what that tells me about that deal more than anything. All right. So I guess we need to talk about what happens next. Like, do we need to pick teams? Like, what is the most, what is the most, what is the most, interesting possible destination for JT. Who's the right guy for you? Like who should stay there before we get into the right teams? Like who would you move if you had to pick one? I would move JT.

Me too. Yeah. I think it's and I think it's kind of, I think it's kind of a no-brainer. If you honestly, if you have to move one of them and we love what he brings the lineup. And I gravitate towards the personality type, I think is maybe the most diplomatic way to put it.

like I get it, right? I like that element there, but the dude is alternated between being great and just okay. Basically, year over year. He's older. He's 32. One's 26. And Miller,

I think there was some rumbling that like there was some, you know, stuff lingering maybe in his back or neck this year. Like, I don't know. And six years left on his deal, including this year. time left on that, like we're talking about, we're talking about

Pedersen's deal like it's, because it is, it's long and expensive and whatever, but let's not forget how much time J.T. Miller and how much money J.T. Miller has left on his contract, too. The age when these contracts expire is much scarier for J.T. Miller. And here's the good news if you're a Canucks fan or if you're in that front office is there's some equally desperate situations around the league. So I already said Patterson to Buffalo, I think makes a ton of sense. I think if you're the Sabres and you're sitting there going, we need to do something to make radical change.

Not a little minor move, not, you know, we're going to trade our third round pick for some help somewhere. A radical change. This is your chance. And we have seen situations where guys shake free, you know, if I'm Kevin Adams and not to shoot too high here and overplay it, but it's all, you know, I'll make it all about the Leafs. Like this could be your chance at your Doug Gilmore trade to bring in an elite franchise level guy

who normally wouldn't be available. People forget Gilmore had walked out on the Calgary Flames before that trade happened for all the garbage we dump on the flames for losing that deal. They didn't have a choice. this could be your opportunity. And then Miller, I mean, it has to be the Rangers, doesn't it? You talk about another desperate situation, and it's been reported by Pierre and Josh and others

that the offer of Mika Zabanajad was already made and turned down. But who knows when that happened? Maybe you go back to it, but the Rangers are a team that desperately need something. And if they've decided that what they need is J.T. Miller getting dropped into that room, then let them see how that goes. We've got a post on the site. It's Drancer and Arthur Staple, trying to figure out what the fit, if any, there is between the Rangers and the in the Canucks. Now, you read that in detail if it interests you. The upshot is kind of no. Like there's not an easy fit because of what the Connox. Knucks are looking for and what the and what the Rangers actually have to offer. Like, it makes sense in a bunch of ways, but when you start getting down to the nitty-gritty

and you factor in that the can not, that, uh, that the Rangers, uh, could have maybe made a move that involved Braden Schneider, didn't do that, like over, over the summer. There is, there's history there that complicates trying to find, uh, trying to find the actual mechanics of the trade. And, and the other thing, you know, if you're, if you're talking about Zabandajad for, what was it? for Miller, then that means you're going to have a center-ice position of Pedersen and Zabandajad. Like, you've lost a lot of jam.

You're easier in a lot of ways to play against with your top two lines. So I don't see what the age, too, like, I don't see why Vancouver would benefit from that in any way. If I'm, like, I think Pedersen fits on more teams than Miller does. And if I'm Detroit, okay, like Detroit has always had this philosophy of, You know, they draft for the floor, not exactly the ceiling. And Dylan Larkin's a great player. But I think a lot of the conversation there prior to his contract extension was like, is he really a number one center on a good team?

So if you brought in Elias Pedersen and all of a sudden, like, that's your high ceiling player. And he'd have to be playing like it, right? But that's one that would interest me. Like, what if he could be the first line center for Detroit and help kind of speed things up There. I like that. Let me just throw one more name at you as we talk about Elias Pedersen is this makes me think a little bit about two years ago when Matthew Kachuk hit the trade market. And we're always told stars in their mid-20s never get traded. They never hit the trademark. Well, Matthew Kachuk did. And do you guys remember what happened? That offseason when it was only like a week. But we heard that he wanted out. So Calgary, you know, their hands were tied. Everybody suddenly got cheap. everybody suddenly got, oh, you know, we couldn't, we couldn't even talk about Jordan

Kairu. We couldn't talk about this or that. Everybody got, you know, really cute. One team, the Florida Panthers jumped in and basically elbowed their way to the front and said, here's our big offer. And we all love that trade for Calgary at the time. I went back and looked at our trade grades. It was A pluses for the Calgary Flames up and down the board.

I think I literally might have given them an A plus. A year and a half later, two years later, we all look back. And you're sitting there going, Florida won the trade. Florida got the best player. Florida got their guy. Why didn't my team go more aggressive? Why did my team get cute? Why did my team think that, well, because Calgary was in a tough situation,

they could tiptoe around it? Why didn't my team do what Florida did and just step up and say, here's the offer that you can't refuse and grab the guy? And I think we're headed right down that road again where it is possible in a couple of years. we look back and whether it's Detroit or Buffalo or, you know, like you said, Frank, there's probably 10 teams we could come up with. We're going to say, why did this GM or maybe this former GM not step up and take a big swing? And Pedersen's way more getable for a lot of other teams than Kachaklas because we know that his list was short. And I think by the end of it.

Pedersen doesn't. He is locked into a contract and he has no say on this unless he's willing to sit at home. there's been no indication of that. So it's, it's wide open. If your team missed out on Matthew Kachuk, maybe here's part two. And I know he'll,

well, Pedersen's not playing. Well, Pedersen, this and that didn't have a good playoff. Matthew Kachuk hadn't had good playoffs in Calgary until he got to Florida and suddenly he was a playoff warrior, different types of players,

obviously. Yeah. What if with Pedersen gets away from Miller and the personality in Vancouver and he goes somewhere, like you just don't know what that can do for the guy. Like, that might free him up. And like,

that's, It's worth the swing, I think, for a guy with that kind of ceiling. I think the only thing we can probably all agree on is that the single funniest outcome is that both guys get traded and they get traded to the same team. And they've got to awkwardly sit on a flight together like out to Buffalo. Yeah. Yeah, maybe they'll like hanging out in Buffalo together. Who knows? Yeah.

All right. The other big contract-related news of the last couple of days, typically I don't think we would spend all that much time on a Frank Petrono. extension with the Anaheim Ducks because on some level, who cares? But our guy signed a three-year, $18 million extension with Anaheim, $6 million theoretically a year for Frank Petrono. But half of it is deferred until 2035. So starting 10 years from now, he'll get 900 grand a year for 10 years. And the logic there is that by then he's going to be retired and living in Florida.

so he won't be subject to the California tax laws. It's not quite that simple. There's been a lot of discussion about it in various spots over the last couple days. But I know that we wanted to talk about it here. And Frank, you want to talk about it. I had something on this. I had something. This is accountant Frank.

He's a new character on the on this show. It's Frankie wearing his little, wearing a little visor and hitting like an adding machine. We're not on video, but I'm going to put my glasses on for this. Okay. Now I have my glasses on. And I'm seeing a lot.

lot of stuff get thrown at the wall about this contract. And I think a lot of it, like, people are missing sight of things. I think this is a brilliant move by Frank Vitrano. And is, is he a $6 million player? No, he's not a $6 million player, but he's going to get paid like a $6 million player and he's going to get money for a long time. And so I think the thing you have to keep in mind is when you retire, your cash flow negative forever. until you start getting your pension or until you want to start to work, whatever it is you want to do. You want to work at TSN, SportsNet panels, you want to get into sales.

Like, that's up to you. But you are getting zero cash flow from, let's call it, age 35 to age 62. That's when you can start taking your pension penalty free. You can take it a little sooner, but you have to pay a little penalty on that. So what he's done is he's basically said, I know I'm not a $6 million player, but I don't need to make $6 million a year playing for Anaheim playing in the NHL. I can make $3 million a year because I can live off that. Obviously, it's a lot of money. But from age, what is it? It's going to be from age 41 to 51. He's going to pay himself $900,000 a year, USD, living in a no state tax

state. And then I know inflation. I get it. Like you could have invested it. but you also are cash flow negative for 10 years. He's basically saying, like, I'm, I'm going to be cash flow positive for 10 years, and I don't have to worry about anything. And he's still going to make a lot of money, and he's still going to invest his money, and he's still going to compound interest, and he's still going to do all that. He's still going to have a great portfolio because he's made a lot of money, and he's still making good money at $3 million a year. Like, I think, I think this is, this is brilliant, and it's really smart, and I think he's really looked after his future in a smart way with this.

The inflation argument only comes into play if you, like, if you presuppose that guy is going to get $18 million for three years on some of their contract. And it's just not going to happen, right? Like, he's just, he's just not, he's just not that guy. So do we think this is going to not be the new normal, but do we think this is suddenly going to become a new way of doing contracts for teams in high state? Because, I mean, you know every fan in Toronto, Montreal, New York is looking at this going, well, our next guy that we have to sign is going to take half his cap hit because we'll just defer all the salary. I would bet $900,000 a year that this is out of the next CBA.

Dude. And you know what? If it is, that's a shame. Yeah. And they're negotiating the new CBA because all the, okay, I don't want to criticize the NHL too much. but at the end of the day, like, there have been so many workarounds that they could have put in place when it comes to the hard cap and, like, leniency's here and there. And they haven't done it. And this is, this would be another one where it's like, oh, you think you have a way of doing things?

No, like you're stuck, just like everyone else. And the one that, the one that would be interesting, like with the Mitch Marner contract coming up in Toronto. Okay. Everyone gets in Toronto the massive signing bonus right away on July 1st. go pick it up and then they'll make like, you know, 800 grand, you know, throughout the season. Like, would, would there ever be a situation? Were you in that line back in the day? No.

I was, uh, yeah, I was not going to the mailbox on July 1st. Um, if anything, they were taking me at arbitration. But like, this, this would be interesting. Like, could you find a work around in Toronto where you could pay this guy, you know, what he would make if Chicago wanted to. to hand him a blank check with the deferred money. Like that, that would be,

that would be an interesting one to me because it would, it would be different than how all the star players have done their contracts in Toronto, where they go get a massive lump sum of money on July 1st. And maybe you can do both. Maybe you can have that, but also have the deferred at the end. But I don't know. Like,

I don't know if that's where the appetite would be for that. Because, because this is something, I mean, even in the early days of the cap, right? Every fan thought of the same loophole, which is,

can you not sign a guy to a contract that's cheaper as far as the cap hit and then promise him a front office job that's going to pay X dollars a year as soon as he retires? And of course, the answer to that is no. The NHL makes sure that that doesn't happen. But this is kind of that in a way. And, you know, it does, it counts. The money does count against the cap. And the other thing we should we should point out is there's no cap hit in the future. This isn't like the ducks are, you know, 10 years from now, suddenly you're going to have this Bobby Bonilla cap hit on, you know, sitting there.

They pay it all right now. I do wonder, I, the guy that I wonder about a little bit is John Tavares if he is sort of in that situation, but he is maybe not super open to any cute tax loopholes right now. He might, he might prefer to just keep this one simple. He's probably just got to keep it simple on the next one. Yeah. When his accountant shows up and says, I have an idea, he probably just closes the door. He needed to hire Frank Grado, CPA. And I got to say, Frankie did put the glasses on if people are wondering.

It actually did. And I took him more serious. I leaned in a little closer. I was ready for like, what does this guy have to say? In reading some of the reporting on this has been interesting. Pierre wrote about it, I think that story published yesterday, just a little bit of a more in-depth breakdown. Some of the stuff we're talking about here as it relates to Vitrano and whatever else. But one of the lines that stuck out with me is that Pat for Beak and the Ducks worked closely with the league, like throughout the entire process for the extension.

So they're, you know, dot in their eyes and crossing their tease on this. And also, Pierre, of course, included, you know, the league doesn't love it. They're not thrilled about it. And which is just, it's incredible to me that that's something that always comes up here. Because we've seen it, we've seen it time after time where it's like, well, the league doesn't really love it and whatever. it's like if you don't love it, then legislate it out. Exactly. Are you in the CBA subjected to negotiations?

Outlaw it specifically. Don't have this weird like, yeah, we'd rather you not do this. Or use the power that you do have in the CBA for Gary Bettman to say, no, we're not going to do this. You know, like we saw this with the backdiving contracts years ago. That's, I still. And then the Covalchuk, remember the Covalchuk contract didn't go through, right? Right, because the league always had the ability to say no to those. But instead, they said yes, yes, yes.

And then in that case, the CBA comes around and they go, oh, by the way, remember all those contracts we approved? We came up with a punitive thing that's going to punish them. And every fan in Vancouver is going, yeah, except we were the only ones who ended up paying it. I think the moral of the story is Anaheim has signed this deal and Ottawa has to forfeit another first round pick. Yeah, that's it. That's the penalty. Senators lose another first round pick. And in the future, we're going to have a 20-minute segment dedicated to me whining about the Kovalchuk ruling and just the overall nature of backdiving contracts because it is insane and I can't believe it's something that happened. But we don't have that kind of time.

Segment two, we're going to play a new game. I don't know if we have a name for it yet. What the hell did I say on our group text? I said, we're going to call it, is this real? Where we look at the standings and look at some movement over the last couple of weeks and figure out whether we're buying it or selling. it. That's next. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. Fellas, like we said, the last time we spoke was before Christmas. So a lot's happened between then and now. Looking at the standings, man, like stuff is crazy

even relative to where it was like three or four days ago. We're in silly season when it comes of that. So we're looking at the standings. I'm going to throw some teams out there who've either slid up or slid down and we're going to see whether we're in on it being a long-term

thing. How's that sound? Let's do it. Let's do it. Carolina in the tank. 810 and 1 since November 29th. They've been outscored 59 49 in that time frame. Obviously getting junk goaltending. That's been their primary issue. I'm not talking about them sliding out of the playoffs because that's clearly not going to happen. But how concerned are we about slipping down to third in the metro? Like I said, it's been almost six weeks of substandard. substandard play there. Are we concerned? I think for me, it's a mild concern, and I think this was

always going to be a concern based on who they had in net, what their reputations were when it comes to injuries, and the fact that the team, like, Roslovick has been a great story, you know, Robinson, but they're like, they didn't really go after, after losing Gensel. Like, it's not like you replaced goals for goals. You know what I mean? Like, you were just hoping that some guys, you were still going to be hard to play against, since some guys were going to give you some some nice contributions, which they have, but I think a lot of it comes back to the crease. Like those two guys, they just, they have a hard time shaking their reputations. And like, you got to, you got to find a way to weather it because, like, there have been

teams that have watched the waiver wire for goalies. There hasn't been goalies available unless you're trading a goalie. So it still would leave you in the same situation. So I guess it would be a mild concern, but not something that is overly super. surprising based on who they were coming into the season. Yeah, and the thing, if I'm Carolina, I'm looking at third place in that division and saying, we can probably live with that. We're fine with that.

Because the team's ahead of us, we've got New Jersey, who's a good team. And we've got Washington who, you know, we're all, we all keep waiting for that balloon to burst and it doesn't seem to be happening. But not me. They're going to be good forever. What are you talking about? There's a good team. But, you know, I'm not looking, this isn't a division where I'm looking at going, man, we got to finish first. We got to get that first seed because, you know, like, for example, maybe the central where you're sitting there going, man, the path out of this division.

If you finish third especially in your start on the road, that's a long, tough road to get out of that division. I mean, I think if the playoffs started today with these standings, I think an awful lot of people would still pick Carolina out of those teams. Obviously, they don't start today, which means there's still time to address the goaltending between now and when the games actually do start to count. They've just been such a good regular season team over the last chunk of the chunk of years. I think we all just assume that they're going to get right eventually, which is, you know, that's, that could well be true. We all said that about the Rangers two months ago. Right. I think we should, it's worth putting a little, a little checkmark next to them moving forward because it's been,

not just goal-tending, like they've been, you know, mediocre in some other respects, really since Thanksgiving, since actual- We're on the road, like they're 15 and 5 at home, which everyone knows that's a hard building to play in,

but they're 9, 10, and 2 on the road. Like that, that seems, that's a pretty big discrepancy. Like, when you look at a lot of these top teams, I guess outside of Boston, who's, you know, third in the Atlantic still somehow, um,

everyone's pretty good. in both home and away records. I guess Dallas wouldn't be, like they're not very good on the road as well. But like that's, I guess, probably one of the things that jumps out with Carolina as well.

Yeah. And a lot of those road losses, too are against other Eastern Conference teams. Like in December, they lose the Islanders. They'll lose the caps. They lose the devils. You know,

they've just lost kind of a wild one to our next team, which I guess we'll, we'll slot in it in number two here. The Columbus Blue Jackets woke up Wednesday in a playoff spot based on points. They're not there on points percentage, but that's all well and good. They beat Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh for the first time since 2015 last night. This is a team that's had two separate five-game losing streaks this season, but they're six, two and one in their last nine.

And like I said, as of Wednesday morning based on points, they are in the Eastern Conference wild card spot. what do we think of what they've done to get here and I guess their chances to hang on to this a little bit longer. Their top line is unbelievable right now. Marchenko, Monaghan, and Voronkov have been on fire. And I guess as much as that line is playing great, that would be the thing that would kind of scare me a little bit, is that if that line cools off, you know, they're not a four-line team. for me anyways. Like they're playing great right now,

but that's where I feel like, and Johnson and Sillinger have had really nice seasons. Olivier has been a really nice surprise, you know, especially offensively where he's given a little bit more. But like that's the one thing that would worry me. Like if the top line cools off, what does that do to the rest of the group?

And they're really overworking or really working Merzleekins to the point where like, Teresoff, he flat out doesn't play. And if they need to play a backup, they call it grieves. So, you know, there's a lot of injuries there. And I think that's the one concern with Columbus. What happens if the top line cools off?

So I'm still weary about Columbus. Hey, good for them, though. It's nice to see Columbus in a playoff spot. I think they deserve it for sure. I want to believe it would be the story of the year if, you know, if they could make it in. And the only down. downside to them being in for me is that every year I like to write a piece when the

playoffs start where I talk about, you know, who's the easiest team to jump on the bandwagon of? And I wouldn't have to bother this year because it'd be Columbus by a mile. Every, every fan who wasn't a fan of the team playing Columbus would be rooting for them. I need to see it more. My hand was, it was in a wrist wrap or something after that game against Pittsburgh, too. So that's something I watch moving forward. Maybe that's, maybe that's the domino that starts here. Like I, like, you guys said it. I want it to happen. I think a lot of it just boils down to the fact that I don't believe in Merzleikins. Like, he's, he's, he's playing a ton. He hasn't, he hasn't,

that's credit to them. They're not just stealing games because of, because of some goalie that's doing, it's doing tricks out there. But man, I just, I can't, I can't, I can't get on board much as I would like to. All right. Uh, Vegas. The Vegas Golden Knights, 173 and one since November 21st. these dudes are these dudes are streaking i i like personally i thought they were i thought they were still going to be pretty good i'm not sure that that i that i would have bought them having a streak like this in them top of the pacific division comfortably too six points ahead of edmonton uh their first in the western conference now too they snuck ahead of winnipeg um is this where they belong yeah i i believe in Vegas although i just i just called a game in Vegas where i was kind of underwhelmed with how

they played. It was the Montreal game and give Montreal a lot of credit. Like, they're playing well and they went in there and it was a pretty scrappy effort. But I was watching Vegas and I'm like, very passive. I thought it was a very passive game for them. And I don't know if they were just trying to be patient or what it was, but it wasn't the big, heavy type game that I remember watching more Vegas play. So with that being said, like they're like a well-oiled machine.

And they kind of just continue to do. do it. And I, of course, am a believer in Vegas because I think if you're, if you're not, given what they've done, um, like you're just, I think you're almost trying to be a contrarian at this point. Like, they're just, they're, they're good. They're good in so many different ways. And their blue line is still such an envious, uh, group because of the size, the speed, the skill that, that, that they have. So that's always going to work in their favor. You said contrarian. I feel like that's my, uh, that's my cue to jump in. No, I have a, I mean, look, capital T, capital C, the contrarian.

I feel like these guys are, yes, they're for real. And look, they've got a recent Stanley Cup. They've had enough playoff success that when you do see those maybe less impressive efforts during the season, it's a question of, okay, is this, are we maybe seeing a weakness here? Or is this just a team that knows that you can't have your foot on the gas every single game? And when a team like Montreal comes in, you know, maybe let off a little bit. I will just say this. Here's my prediction.

Vegas is going to finish first in the Pacific. Edmonton's going to finish second. And when it comes time to fill out the playoff brackets, we're all going to have Edmonton coming out of that division instead of Vegas. Partly because it's just, you know, you can never just pick all the first place team. So you need to find the upset. But that's going to be our trendy upset is going to be Edmonton over Vegas in round two.

You heard it here first, must credit, Sean M. Did you put your glasses on for that one? Yeah. When people say the Oilers beat the Golden Knights in game seven, I expect to see as first reported in January. In January. By Sean. DGB had it first.

Exactly. Frank, you mentioned the Canadians in our little Vegas talk. You see a lot of them, by 13 points percentage, they're actually better off there than the Blue Jack are 8-2-0 in their last 10. They were the talk of the league

five days ago maybe. We're all understandably, like they beat four cup winners, whatever. It looked like the plan was starting to come together. And they've kept it going too. Like I said, eight two and on their last 10

right in the thick of the mix with a wild card. Is this real? It feels that way. Like how real, you know, like it does feel like they're going to be in the mix for the four.

foreseeable future and they're not going to be out of the mix. And this is exactly where they thought they were going to be, where they hope they were going to be. And a lot of this stems from that 9-2 loss to your Pittsburgh Penguins back on December 12th, where they were in the game. I wrote them off. I wrote them off completely. Right after that game, you're like, this team is done. And DGB was already getting in touch with Scott Wheeler to see who's the right prospect. Is it Martone? Is it Misa? Anyways, they're not talking about Martone and Misa anymore or Schaefer. do they draft another defenseman. Now they're talking about what do we do with our UFAs because we're in the

playoff mix. And there's a few things that have happened for this group. They are now a four-line team. Like their fourth line, it's the best fourth line in the NHL. I can comfortably say that. They are that good. Jake Evans has been great. Yol Armia is having a resurgence.

And Emil Heinemann on a lot of other teams is not playing on the fourth line. He is really good. First line's been playing well. but the biggest revelation after the Christmas break is Kirby Doc has found it a little bit, like more than a little bit. Like he's playing much better. Line A has been out of the lineup the last few games, but he was playing better. Alex Newhook playing better.

So now it was a situation where first line was playing fine. Third line was a really good checking energy four check line and the fourth line was great. And Marty San Luis basically said to the second line, you guys figure it out. I'm not messing up what I have with the other three to help you guys. And since they've done that, now they're a four-line group that he can kind of just roll them over the boards. The other thing that's important there, they traded Barron for Alex Carrier. And Carrier has been unbelievable for them. Him and Gouli, it's like these guys have been playing together for like four years at this point.

Like, it's that good. So, like, I believe they are here to stay in the mix. They also get good goaltending. Like, Jakob Dobish is like, they made him in a lab. and he's like a mix between Dryden, Waugh, and Carrie Price. Right. And so, you know, I'm just joking.

Better. Better. He's better than... Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he was made in a lab in Brassard, Quebec. And so, no, I think a lot of things are going well for them, but it's not an accident. Like, they didn't fluke wins in Florida and Tampa, and they didn't fluke a win in Vegas. I can tell you that for certain. And that Colorado game was not a fluke either. and the Montreal, or sorry, the Vancouver game. Like, they're, they're in a really good spot.

And Marty San Luis got a beard, so you always have to be aware of that as well. Is this, uh, is this, is this sustainable from Doc? Like, is this what we can expect from. Yes, I think, I think it is because. It's always been the big thing. But like, is this? Well, because he had the stretch where it was so bad for him. Like, he did that.

He's worked through that. So I, I think, you know, if he started off gangbusters and then he, he dipped off. I'd be a little more concerned, but I feel like it's been, you know, a little bit of a climb for him. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's been the build. And the little reset for Christmas, you come back and you start playing well, like he might have just needed two days away from the game. But it looks, it looks more like what he was supposed to be. Here we go.

I need to see more before I'm going to jump on the bandwagon. Is this being more than a team that is not great in that face? of the rebuild having the 10 or 15 game stretch the teams like this sometimes have. You know, how many times do we get fooled by the Sabres running off, you know, a nice 10 game streak and we go, this is the year and then it never happens. I will say, I mean, I had Montreal down towards the very bottom of the standings, you know, going into the year thinking this is a team that could be right there in the lottery. They've certainly shown there more than that.

But as far as being in a playoff mix, it checked back with me in a couple weeks. The variable here is that they're in a race, a direct race with a bunch of other teams that stink. That's, that's the, but also, you know, we're all jumping on, you know, how open this is.

Don't forget, there's a pretty good Ottawa Senators team that is struggling right now because their $8 million goalie has hurt. And when he, but he was playing great before he got hurt. he comes back. Maybe this isn't the race we think it is.

It's just my sense, haters, tendencies coming through. Sure. That's fair. All right. We're down here. Frankie, where are you this week?

I'm doing Leaf Panel tomorrow night. Yeah. And then I'm in D.C. to watch DGB's capitals and watch O.B. Chase history. Yeah. Love it. Yeah.

I'm going to walk into the media room and say, Sean McIndoo, just can't wait for this group to fall apart. Just make sure you specify that it's Mac and do a notch and Tilly. Yeah, yeah. I have some work I need to do with the caps coming up here. A. And B, people have made that mistake before.

Mainly to Mac and do's detriment, but whatever. All right, boys. Safe travels, bud. See you next week. See you, bud. All right, we're back. Macandoo. I think we lack 15 days between speaking.

That's a lot of time to learn a lot of things. A lot of time. learned, Sean. I only learned one thing in that time. And the thing that I learned is that firing the coach works. And Todd McClellan has fixed the Detroit Red Wings. And I know there's wings fans out there who during that last segment were kind of tearing their hair out going, how come you're not talking about us for that playoff spot?

So here's where the wings get their flowers a little bit. Five wins in a row under their new coach after a bit of a bit of a bit of a. a bit of a bumpy start. And they're right there in the mix. Up to 500, fake 500, because this is the NHL. But fake 500 is good enough to keep you in that Eastern race for now at least. And so now we've got this beautiful thing where Steve Eisenman is both a genius for making the change and an idiot for not doing it sooner. Because if he had done it a week or two earlier, then the wings maybe would be in that spot.

already. But I would certainly if I was an NHL coach right now of a struggling team, I would be side-eyeing Todd McClellan going like, dude, you're blowing this up for everybody because the seats have got to be getting a little warmer when you see a team having a rebound like this. Yeah, I, uh, there's, there was a win over Pittsburgh mix in there that I watched, I watched a whole bunch of. Um, that's a different hockey team than the one I saw earlier. in the season. I'll say that much. There's, you know, it's not just about, uh, this isn't just, this isn't just the results changing and the process being the same and the players looking relatively similar. Like, they look, they look better. And we'll, we'll see how long it,

how long it lasts because, whatever. It's a, it's, there's a, there's a, there's a sugar high element, I think, to playing under a new coach. But, man, they're, they have as good a chance of anybody. It's like we said whenever we were talking about the Canadian. That same strain of logic applies to every team in that mix in Eastern Conference. None of these teams are consistently good. It's going to be about whoever's on their little seven or eight game rush at the end of the season. Who rolls off the 9-1 at some point, you know, starting now because I know some teams have already done, have got theirs. That's what got them into the conversation.

But it's just everybody. Yeah, everybody and then the Sabres. Everybody and then the savers, as God intended. What I learned is that the expansion discussion, I think, is entering its next phase. And I say this because Gary Bettman, Commissioner Gary Bettman, never heard of him, met with an Arizona committee who's interested in bringing NHL hockey back to the desert, because of course he did. Of course that meeting happened.

how real that is for Arizona moving forward remains to be seen. We've talked more than enough about Arizona ownership and whatever else over the last million years. The takeaway here for everybody should be is that expansion moving forward, a 34 team NHL, which we're going to see at some point, a necessary step, I think, is that you need to have multiple cities bidding for teams. You need to have people who are going to lose. And I think that's part of what we're seeing with Arizona. I think it's part of what we're going to see with other teams that get in the mix here over the next, however, many months.

We know there's interest from Houston. Tillman Fretta, who's the owner of the Houston Rockets, is very open and very public about his interest there. We all know what's gone on with Atlanta. The important thing, if you want expansion to happen, is for there to be a decent group of cities. and ownership groups to choose from. And I think publicly finding this out about Batman speaking with Arizona is a big, big part of that. Because whether the interest is real,

whether it's more than a theoretical possibility, you need to have a few different groups to draw from. And I think that's what's a play here. Yep. And two things on this. First of all, I do feel like all the stories about Batman,

meaning with Arizona, went weirdly out of their way to mention that it was only a Zoom call. I don't know. I guess that's... I thought Gary was a team's guy, but okay. Yeah, no, apparently he wasn't willing to hop on a plane, which you'd think. I mean, he's got to know the airport system down there pretty well by now,

but the other piece of this is just as a little flag to fans as we start down this road, this is also the point where you're going to start to see any teams in markets that maybe aren't doing as well as they'd like or who won a new arena will start floating the, you know, maybe, maybe we'd go to Houston. Maybe we'd go to it. 99% chance there will be no truth to it because the NHL isn't going to let somebody move into a market that's about to pay a billion dollars for an expansion fee. But this is part of that game of, and sometimes it's part of shaking free those things.

But you're right. It's no different than to bring it back to the start. Then if you're going to trade Elias Patterson, you're not going to do it when there's only one bidder. But you get two teams or more bidding against each other. Now maybe you're in business. It's the same for the NHL and, yeah, Arizona, Houston, Atlanta and maybe two spots available. And let's see how crazy the numbers can get.

That's a good way to end things. What do you have on the, you have a trade rankings? Yeah, I did. On the site today, right? piece today where I took, I went through every year of the last 25 years taking us back because I realized, dude, it's been 25 years of the 2000. That doesn't, it doesn't work for it. That doesn't make sense to me.

But I went through every year back to 2000, every calendar year, I picked the single, what I thought, biggest, most important trade. and then I rank them because that's what I do. I can't function without ranking things. It brings order to your life based on completely random criteria. And it's a lot of fun. It's a chance to relive all these trades. And then after I've done that, you can go into the comments and be super weird about some minor trade that your team made.

And you're like, how was this not ranked ahead of the Joe Thornt trade that time that my team acquired? Todd Eelick for a draft pick. The Pittsburgh Penguins acquiring Rico Fata from the New York Rangers is conspicuously absent. I have no idea why I picked Todd Eilich to be the guy there. I'm pretty sure he wasn't even in the league. These names are rattling around our brains. That's right. I don't know what color my wife's eyes are, but I know that I can pull this stuff out.

All right, folks, four games in night. Vancouver, Washington, Colorado, Chicago, Florida, Utah. Calgary Los Angeles Kings Enjoy them We'll be back next week with Frankie Intel Take care Talk to you that